The Nice Leader Trap: When “Nice” Creates Dysfunction

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Believe it or not, early in my career, I was the nice leader.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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The two nice leaders.
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Oh, no, not the two.
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Nice.
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Yeah.
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No. Well, and it wasn't that I was, like, too friendly or too.
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But I was like, no, I'll fight for the employees and I'll go against the corporation and all.
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Yeah, it was bad.
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Yeah, it was bad.
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Um, yeah.
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Have you ever been the nice leader?
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Mhm.
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More than I probably should have been.
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Yes.
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No, no big story like that though.
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Oh I mean yeah we'll get into this.
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Yeah.
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Heartburn.
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All the things.
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Yeah.
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Ulcer.
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Ulcer.
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Another one.
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No, not another one.
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It was the same one.
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Same one.
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Good, good.
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Yeah.
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Find out about Chrissy's ulcers.
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Stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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February is.
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And I'm going to go back to my notes here.
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Workplace kindness month.
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So why not talk about the manager that is too nice to people.
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Oh no, I always like I mean to me, just the the toxic niceness.
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The person that walks around the office.
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Hi. Are you having a wonderful day?
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No. It's horrible here because you don't do anything.
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One hundred percent.
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I would always be the person that would fire back.
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Nope.
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Exactly.
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They would just look at you like, well, why not?
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What am I supposed to do about that?
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Because they just walk away.
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Correct.
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Correct, correct.
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They they've come along.
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They have tried to blow sunshine where the sun normally does not shine.
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Yep.
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And, uh, I had sunglasses there.
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Yes.
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Always The problem is, is we talk about the difference between nice and kind.
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Kind is very much not always nice up front.
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Yeah.
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It kind is sometimes direct.
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Kind is well, kind is always direct for the most part.
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Yes, it's clear, but kind can sometimes hurt, whereas niceness doesn't hurt now.
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But boy, does it hurt a lot of things later.
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It's kind of like that.
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Uh, it's that wound.
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Yeah.
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That you're like, ah, that doesn't need an antibiotic.
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No, I'll just wash it off.
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It's fine.
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I'll just rub some dirt on it.
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I'll just keep washing this.
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And shortly after your arm falls off.
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No. Everything's fine.
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Um, once the sepsis kicks in and you have completely lost your mind, um, you are at the place that most first time managers are at.
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Yeah.
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I don't want to say everyone, but I will say almost everyone makes this mistake.
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Oh you do?
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You just do.
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Especially, I would say, especially anyone.
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Anyone that's in management I would say typically before their mid thirties.
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Oh yeah.
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Hands down.
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I see a much higher, um, instance of this.
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Yes.
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In that.
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Yeah.
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Um, and it's either they go to nice or they go to dictator.
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Mhm.
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Either way.
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Um, yeah.
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We're, we're going to talk about what happens when you get the nice person there.
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Uh, for me it's one hundred percent came down to if they like me, um, they're going to do everything that I ask.
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And then I started watching episodes of The Office about that time.
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Um, and I was like, uh oh, I'm Michael Scott.
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They don't like me.
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I, I, I want them to be afraid of how much they love me It is what it came down to.
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Uh, I know you see this all the time.
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How does a leader's desire to be liked?
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Or the nice leader?
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If I'm nice, they'll love me.
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Yeah.
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Um. I have a tough time saying that without throwing up a little bit in my mouth.
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How does that eventually lead to that cultural dysfunction that we have all seen in all kinds of businesses?
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Yeah.
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So I'm going to start by owning it because I've been the nice leader.
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I know you said you've been the nice leader too.
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I thought I was being kind.
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I was being supportive.
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I'm being patient.
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You're a doormat.
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I'm doing.
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I was an absolute doormat.
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Same doormat.
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Or the other part of it, too, is that I am avoiding discomfort being a chicken.
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Like, I don't want to say the things that I need to an avoidance.
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It always sends the bill later and it's usually way more expensive with interest.
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Correct?
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So over time, you know, I've realized, you know, when nice leadership breaks down, it almost always shows up in the same four ways, and they all start with the letter C. So I know I'm shocked, ironically, when I can put all these things together and I and I prepare, I get the four C's of the nice leader trap which are comfort, confusion, compromise, and collapse.
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So yes, that wasn't the those aren't the C's that you thought of.
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No, no, there was one.
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No, it's not that one.
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Okay.
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So the first seat comfort.
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So that is really protecting yourself, not the person.
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So nice leaders stay quiet because they don't want to feel awkward.
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I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable.
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I don't want myself to feel uncomfortable.
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So I'm just.
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I'm not gonna say anything.
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It's funny you say that because in so many cases, for me, the excuse that I made, I don't want them to feel uncomfortable.
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When really it was.
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It was all about you.
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It's not about them.
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You really don't care.
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Just be honest, humans.
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We care about avoiding pain for ourselves.
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Unless they are our children.
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And our employees are not our children.
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We're just we're going to avoid this for pain ourselves.
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But, you know, silence isn't neutral.
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It protects the leader's comfort at the expense of the employees growth.
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It really does it.
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Clarity.
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We see this all the time.
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Leaders think they're being kind, but they're actually withholding information that someone needs to succeed.
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So what you're doing is you're holding people back.
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And, you know, Gallup did this workplace survey.
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They workplace survey everybody all the time.
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But they most recently they did a survey about, you know, meaningful and timely feedback.
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And so not those delayed annual comments that you give one time in a performance review and then forget about.
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So eighty percent of employees are fully engaged when they have direct conversations.
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It's one of the biggest drivers of performance that you have.
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So not just avoiding the conflict or just I want everybody to like me.
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So I don't want to say anything that might upset them.
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Sometimes employees want to be upset.
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They want to know how they're doing.
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They want to know how they can improve.
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So it's time to learn how to have that sweaty ten minute conversation.
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You know, we've talked about several times.
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Deal with your own internal mess.
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The internal feelings of I don't like how this is going to feel, because if silence is about protecting your comfort, it's not kindness.
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And you're not being nice, you're being a jerk.
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It's funny how by trying to be nice.
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You're really the jerk.
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Yeah, you're the asshole.
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It's you.
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You're the problem.
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So let's talk about the next C, which is confusion.
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And this is the cost of unsaid expectations.
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You know, not giving that feedback.
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Right?
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So when leaders avoid direct feedback, confusion fills that gap.
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Employees are going to fill things with with something else.
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They're going to play guessing games.
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How they're doing.
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And people, especially your team members, are terrible mind readers.
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They are.
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I've watched employees spiral into anxiety and disengagement because no one ever clearly told them where they stood.
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And that's not a performance problem.
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That's communication failure.
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So confusion really comes from your lack of communication.
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So you know, Gallup again.
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Continuing with that survey, ninety six percent of employees believe that regular feedback benefits them, yet only of those same that were that were surveyed, sixteen percent say their most recent feedback was deeply meaningful.
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So you've got ninety six out of one hundred saying, hey, I really like feedback.
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It benefits me.
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And sixteen percent of them out of that, ninety six are saying, yeah, but I got meaningful feedback.
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So there are eighty people out of one hundred that are going.
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No one, no one freaking talk to me.
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I don't know what's going on.
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Help! And that's confusion.
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The funny thing is, is you see me smiling.
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Yes.
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You do not see a confused nor a surprised look on my face?
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No, not at all.
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So you have to take the time to be clear in your communication.
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Unspoken expectations don't disappear.
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They turn into confusion.
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One hundred percent.
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Agreed?
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Yeah.
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So the third C is compromise.
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And this is the nice.
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This is the nice piece.
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It's lowering the standard to avoid the sweaty ten minute conversation.
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So this is where vision quietly dies.
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Because, and I would say it's not so quietly.
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I was about to say it is kind of quiet because it's just you forget about it.
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Yeah.
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It's like that plant in the corner.
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I had that standard.
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Yeah, it would have been nice.
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It's that plant in the corner.
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You forget the water.
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It just wilted and died because I forgot it didn't scream.
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When leaders tolerate mediocrity to avoid that sweaty ten minute conversation, they are compromising the standard and the mission.
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So I've had to look in the mirror, admit I wasn't holding people accountable because I didn't want to disappoint them.
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And doing that, I've disappointed the business, and that's where you really have to think of, like, you know, where is my mission?
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Because often I hear leaders, especially in family business, my mission is the people know your mission is the business.
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The business has to survive.
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If you let the people run amok, or you don't do the things that you need to do to communicate with the people so the people can do the things so the business is successful, then the business slowly dies.
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Then what do you do with the people?
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You failed them.
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If you really want to do, do right by the people, do right by the business, and make sure that the business is a healthy organism.
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So McKinsey, another group that loves to survey people.
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They did a workplace survey.
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Really I know they're amazing.
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Found that companies that truly focus on people and performance are four point two times more likely to outperform their peers and see higher revenue growth.
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You want to hit your goals in twenty twenty six.
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Don't compromise.
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All right.
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Give the focus on performance.
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When you let mediocrity slide to stay nice, it costs you that advantage.
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Yeah.
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So so much of leading in the C-suite, I think in really leading as as a visionary of your small business is managing yourself to manage human behavior.
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Let me say that again.
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You've got to manage yourself to manage the human behavior.
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You have to lean into that uncomfortable.
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And if you don't have the skills, you need to develop those skills, because if you compromise the standard, you've compromised your vision.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I see it too, is if you compromise the standard for one person, you have now compromised for everybody.
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Yeah, you've done it for everyone.
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Yes.
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So in the fourth one is, you know, collapse of trust.
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And it's really simple and like knowing that your best people are watching.
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So this is the most expensive consequence out of all of all of the three wks four wks.
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It's it's dealing with the collapse of trust.
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So high performers see everything when poor performance is tolerated.
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For the sake of being nice, all of that trust erodes.
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And we talked about this in a lot of other episodes.
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You know your best people don't think this leader is kind when you're not doing what you're supposed to do, when you're not so nice to me.
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Yes.
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No. They're thinking that the leader isn't protecting them.
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The leader isn't protecting the team, which means they don't care about me.
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And that's when those high performers start to engage.
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Because if you're not caring about the business, you're not caring about those high performers, and that's when they disengage or leave.
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And so twenty twenty three Data Team survey by Gallup.
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It was the last it was the first survey after they did the big Covid survey found that teams with high psychological safety, especially as we're leaning into innovation in twenty twenty six with AI adoption.
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It's really important that they are high.
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Psychological safety has a product of direct and honest communication.
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And those organizations that have high psychological safety outperform others by twenty seven percent on innovation and eighteen percent in customer satisfaction.
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So you want to be heads above your competition.
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Build trust one hundred percent.
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That's it.
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I mean, it really underscores that trust and candor correlate with performance, and the absence leads to disengagement and turnover.
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So when you know, teams feel safe to speak directly, not gloss over those hard things, they outperform others.
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I mean, that's trust paying off.
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Without it, high performers quietly disengage.
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And I would say high performers don't quit because leaders are too direct.
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They quit because leaders aren't.
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I agree.
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Yeah, wholeheartedly.
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They it's funny because when you see the high performer wants that direct feedback so they can do better.
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Yes.
00:14:36.426 --> 00:14:38.293
That's why they're a high performer.
00:14:38.293 --> 00:14:39.560
They do.
00:14:39.560 --> 00:14:42.326
So what you need to solve for these four keys.
00:14:42.326 --> 00:14:44.593
And it's something that I really had to solve for myself too.
00:14:44.593 --> 00:14:49.493
And it's why I've had to reframe into radical directness as kindness.
00:14:49.493 --> 00:14:51.826
So direct conversations aren't punishments.
00:14:51.826 --> 00:14:55.060
We reframe them and understand that they're really investments in our business.
00:14:55.060 --> 00:14:57.793
They say, I care enough to be honest with you.
00:14:57.793 --> 00:14:59.593
Niceness protects comfort.
00:14:59.593 --> 00:15:03.192
Kindness creates growth, right?
00:15:03.192 --> 00:15:06.826
So as we recap through these keys, you know, comfort creates confusion.
00:15:06.826 --> 00:15:08.293
Confusion leads to compromise.
00:15:08.293 --> 00:15:11.393
Compromise causes that collapse of trust.
00:15:11.393 --> 00:15:13.960
And radical directness is what breaks that cycle.
00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:22.493
It replaces comfort with clarity, replaces confusion with honest expectations, and it replaces compromise with standards that people can trust.
00:15:22.493 --> 00:15:26.093
And you've got to remember that radical directness isn't about being harsh.
00:15:26.093 --> 00:15:32.725
It's about being human enough to tell the truth early, kindly and clearly.
00:15:32.725 --> 00:15:34.660
And when leaders do that, trust doesn't erode.
00:15:34.660 --> 00:15:35.926
It actually strengthens.
00:15:35.926 --> 00:15:47.093
And I would say the most important part of all of that is telling the truth early, because procrastination is a huge component of dealing with the collapse of trust.
00:15:47.093 --> 00:15:47.960
Totally agree.
00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:49.093
Totally agree with that.
00:15:49.093 --> 00:16:02.126
Yes, trust is such a huge thing, and what people don't realize is if you let's call it a deposit, let's say let's treat it like a bank account.
00:16:02.126 --> 00:16:10.926
If you deposit ten dollars, ten dollars, ten dollars, the minimum you can take out is one hundred dollars.
00:16:12.526 --> 00:16:13.493
Doesn't matter.
00:16:13.493 --> 00:16:18.826
You have to do ten things right to forgive that one hundred dollars.
00:16:18.826 --> 00:16:19.326
Wrong.
00:16:19.326 --> 00:16:20.160
Absolutely.
00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:23.126
Yeah, yeah, people need to see that.
00:16:23.126 --> 00:16:28.259
So, Josh, how does culture avoid tough talk impact the bottom line and operational efficiency.
00:16:29.393 --> 00:16:29.826
How's it?
00:16:29.826 --> 00:16:30.426
How's.
00:16:30.426 --> 00:16:32.192
I'm afraid I just want to be nice.
00:16:32.192 --> 00:16:34.960
I'm afraid to have the hard conversation.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:41.060
Um. Me personally, um, I have been accused of being under nice at times.
00:16:41.060 --> 00:16:44.192
I have two more recently.
00:16:44.192 --> 00:16:48.893
Yeah, there's there's a certain point where I'm like, this is the thing.
00:16:48.893 --> 00:16:50.860
And I'm like, well, you didn't need to put it that way.
00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:57.626
There's an arc in your career map, I think, as every human where it's like, we hit that point of like, yeah, and it's too direct.
00:16:57.626 --> 00:16:58.493
You got to push it back.
00:16:58.493 --> 00:17:02.060
It's both personal and personal life, too.
00:17:02.060 --> 00:17:08.826
Um, the thing that I see is the sugarcoating isn't necessarily for employees to feel supported.
00:17:08.826 --> 00:17:14.559
Um, if you're supplying the tools, resources and backing that they need to succeed.
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.893
Yeah, they can handle the truth.
00:17:17.893 --> 00:17:24.893
They can they they can they truly want that because they they know that.
00:17:24.893 --> 00:17:29.160
First off, if you're consistent with how you do things.
00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:32.160
When you tell them, hey, you've screwed this up.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:33.492
They know they've screwed it up.
00:17:33.492 --> 00:17:36.359
It's not just you had a bad day.
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:43.893
So the part of it, that part of what I make sure that I am doing in order to be nice but not too nice, is.
00:17:43.893 --> 00:17:46.326
First off, we're offering continued training.
00:17:46.326 --> 00:17:46.992
Yes.
00:17:46.992 --> 00:17:48.492
Very nice.
00:17:48.492 --> 00:17:49.292
Not too nice.
00:17:49.292 --> 00:17:54.093
But once again, I am showing the support because I need my people to feel supported.
00:17:54.093 --> 00:17:56.960
Because sometimes I'm going to be a little too direct.
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:59.192
I'm going to be like, you screwed that up.
00:17:59.192 --> 00:18:01.559
You're going to be like crying.
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:03.460
You're like, oh, this may have happened.
00:18:03.460 --> 00:18:04.826
This happened this weekend.
00:18:04.826 --> 00:18:06.292
Not this week.
00:18:06.292 --> 00:18:08.059
Maybe not last week.
00:18:08.059 --> 00:18:08.992
Um, but yeah.
00:18:08.992 --> 00:18:16.125
So to me, like, I air on the, the supportive side of things because like, how can I help.
00:18:16.125 --> 00:18:23.593
Sometimes I can be under nice, um, or nice um, but nice deficiency the.
00:18:23.593 --> 00:18:24.792
Yes, yes.
00:18:24.792 --> 00:18:27.225
I didn't take my nice vitamin that day.
00:18:27.225 --> 00:18:27.792
I'm nice.
00:18:27.792 --> 00:18:28.893
Deficient.
00:18:28.893 --> 00:18:30.992
The other thing is too, is like goal advocacy.
00:18:30.992 --> 00:18:34.460
So regularly asking what their personal and professional goals are.
00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:38.660
Where do you want to be and like working with them to help that?
00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:39.559
Yes.
00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:42.692
Once again this is building that trust.
00:18:42.692 --> 00:18:45.660
So when I say something that's nice.
00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:47.026
Yeah.
00:18:47.026 --> 00:18:50.460
The other piece is removing those bottlenecks when they talk about it.
00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:54.026
Sometimes they don't have the tools or resources that they need.
00:18:54.026 --> 00:18:59.492
I like I just had two people in my organization be like, hey, we'd like to change this tool.
00:18:59.492 --> 00:19:01.660
They like the tool we currently have.
00:19:01.660 --> 00:19:02.593
It sucks.
00:19:02.593 --> 00:19:03.259
It's old.
00:19:03.259 --> 00:19:04.826
It doesn't work well.
00:19:04.826 --> 00:19:10.526
Um, I'm like, it does get the job done and where we're at this and I did the research.
00:19:10.526 --> 00:19:12.593
Yeah, they know I did the research.
00:19:12.593 --> 00:19:15.893
So when I came back to them and said, look, I know you don't like this tool.
00:19:15.893 --> 00:19:17.160
We're still using this tool.
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:17.992
Use it.
00:19:17.992 --> 00:19:19.660
They're like, okay.
00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:23.860
So once again, I presented that in a way probably a little bit under nice to them.
00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:25.860
Like, nope, you're stuck with it.
00:19:25.860 --> 00:19:27.293
But it was there.
00:19:27.293 --> 00:19:33.726
Now, previously in my career, I would avoid the the those difficult conversations.
00:19:33.726 --> 00:19:38.793
And it's funny, I didn't really think about this until you mentioned something earlier.
00:19:38.793 --> 00:19:39.526
Okay.
00:19:40.793 --> 00:19:46.759
I felt the protector for my employees because I was working in a very, very toxic environment.
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:50.326
They would fire people I don't want to say at random, but kind of at close.
00:19:50.326 --> 00:19:50.893
Okay.
00:19:50.893 --> 00:19:58.326
So if I had an employee that was underperforming, I would kind of be like, hey, go, let's let's look at your number.
00:19:58.326 --> 00:19:59.393
Let's do this together.
00:19:59.393 --> 00:19:59.759
Right?
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:01.460
Let's do this together.
00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:05.360
Let me help you and let's, let's, let's work on your numbers, okay?
00:20:05.360 --> 00:20:08.593
Um, and it would be that quiet and it would be that hush hush.
00:20:08.593 --> 00:20:14.326
And I know you're trying really hard, but let's see what we can do to really, like, give it give it your all.
00:20:14.326 --> 00:20:15.360
Okay.
00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:19.160
And, uh, I know you're trying to picture twenty year old Josh saying that.
00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:21.160
You're like, who the hell is that guy?
00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:25.860
Is, uh, well, it's also no, because it's totally reasonable.
00:20:25.860 --> 00:20:27.425
It's it's fear of discomfort.
00:20:27.425 --> 00:20:32.526
We know as humans was everything that we do is to avoid pain, and that was to avoid pain.
00:20:32.526 --> 00:20:34.960
You're being nice to avoid pain later.
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.793
Yeah.
00:20:35.793 --> 00:20:46.960
It's the it's really to me it's that it was that avoiding pain for me and for them and to try and protect them.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:47.625
Exactly.
00:20:47.625 --> 00:20:51.360
Um, in a highly, highly volatile environment.
00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:53.425
Because you know what could potentially be coming?
00:20:53.425 --> 00:20:54.093
Correct.
00:20:54.093 --> 00:20:55.992
Don't wake the dragon.
00:20:55.992 --> 00:20:56.593
Exactly.
00:20:56.593 --> 00:20:57.625
We're gonna tiptoe.
00:20:57.625 --> 00:21:06.726
I and I knew and the problem is too is I knew if one of my employees was underperforming, I was gonna get screamed at.
00:21:06.726 --> 00:21:07.692
Exactly.
00:21:07.692 --> 00:21:17.393
And to me, if you have someone in your organization that is being too nice to your employees, it's probably not them.
00:21:17.393 --> 00:21:26.093
Yeah, it's look at how you are working with that person to realize, hey, maybe I'm a little bit volatile.
00:21:26.093 --> 00:21:29.125
Maybe they feel like they have to be too nice to these people.
00:21:29.125 --> 00:21:31.393
Yeah, it's time for a conversation with them.
00:21:31.393 --> 00:21:32.960
A good question, yeah.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:40.492
On the flip side of this, I like we do a ton of marketing for people.
00:21:40.492 --> 00:21:50.492
I in so many cases am finding people saying yes with like, we were going with this marketing firm because they promised.
00:21:50.492 --> 00:21:52.460
Oh, no. The nice thing.
00:21:52.460 --> 00:22:07.793
No. And as salespeople, it is so tough to have that nice conversation and be like, look, yeah, let's set the expectation here because I know I mean, I see it in marketing all the time.
00:22:07.793 --> 00:22:09.692
I call it the fire hose myth.
00:22:09.692 --> 00:22:11.160
Marketing is not a faucet.
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:11.726
Yes.
00:22:11.726 --> 00:22:17.360
If you say, hey, we're going to spend three thousand dollars in ad spend.
00:22:17.360 --> 00:22:21.492
Don't think you're going to get seven thousand dollars slapping you in the face next week.
00:22:21.492 --> 00:22:24.160
No, it's just it doesn't work that way.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:31.992
And as sales and service delivery as it relates to promises, you get stuck eating the crap sandwiches all the time.
00:22:31.992 --> 00:22:32.860
Correct.
00:22:32.860 --> 00:22:39.059
And that's the the problem is, is there's so many in marketing that are promising.
00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:41.026
It's a it's a tight field right now.
00:22:41.026 --> 00:22:41.293
Yeah.
00:22:41.293 --> 00:22:46.259
There are so many people that think they're marketers out there and it's changing so fast.
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:48.460
One hundred percent.
00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:48.960
Yeah.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.793
And they just don't have the idea.
00:22:50.793 --> 00:22:54.192
So they make these wild promises like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do that.
00:22:54.192 --> 00:22:56.425
No you can't, because it's the nice thing to say.
00:22:56.425 --> 00:22:56.625
Yeah.
00:22:56.625 --> 00:22:57.960
We want to make you feel good.
00:22:57.960 --> 00:22:58.293
Right?
00:22:58.293 --> 00:22:59.059
Make you feel good.
00:22:59.059 --> 00:23:00.492
They just want to get that first check.
00:23:00.492 --> 00:23:06.726
And the problem is, is there are so many companies that are turned off to marketing because of it.
00:23:06.726 --> 00:23:07.093
Period.
00:23:07.093 --> 00:23:07.660
Because of it?
00:23:07.660 --> 00:23:08.059
Absolutely.
00:23:08.059 --> 00:23:12.460
Because they don't realize that this once again is put ten dollars in.
00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:28.026
Now put ten dollars in next month, put ten dollars in the following month, put ten dollars in the following month and you'll probably get five bucks back, then ten bucks back, then twenty bucks back, then fifty bucks back, then a hundred bucks back.
00:23:28.026 --> 00:23:29.226
But you got to keep feeding it.
00:23:29.226 --> 00:23:30.692
You got to keep paying attention.
00:23:30.692 --> 00:23:32.093
And it's not going to be tomorrow.
00:23:32.093 --> 00:23:33.860
No, it's a long game.
00:23:33.860 --> 00:23:34.559
Yeah.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.026
The two dollars tomorrow.
00:23:37.026 --> 00:23:40.559
Um, everyone says I want to spend a dollar today and get two dollars tomorrow.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:41.360
It's not going to happen.
00:23:41.360 --> 00:23:42.559
It's not going to happen.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:47.692
So that is the nice piece of the sales and marketing that I wanted to talk about.
00:23:47.692 --> 00:23:53.593
Um, the other thing is with that, I find to with nice leadership, it's vague instructions.
00:23:53.593 --> 00:23:56.860
Can you go ahead and just get the thing done for me?
00:23:56.860 --> 00:23:59.192
Um, you're not being clear, right?
00:23:59.192 --> 00:24:00.692
Not clear.
00:24:00.692 --> 00:24:02.026
You're not being kind.
00:24:02.026 --> 00:24:05.726
Um, when whenever you get to it, whenever you get to it, it's fine.
00:24:05.726 --> 00:24:07.226
You're being a nice A-hole.
00:24:07.226 --> 00:24:09.125
You're not correct being clear.
00:24:09.125 --> 00:24:14.992
Because when you when when the client comes in and goes, hey, it's Wednesday, where's my shit?
00:24:14.992 --> 00:24:16.293
And you're like, uh.
00:24:17.393 --> 00:24:21.960
And then you go to your employee like, hey, do you have the thing done?
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.992
I told no, no. Yeah, those are the whole things.
00:24:25.992 --> 00:24:36.593
And once again, we've talked about this decision paralysis in an effort to keep everyone happy, nice leaders often struggle to make a hard binary decision.
00:24:36.593 --> 00:24:40.293
Sometimes you have to say, damn it, we're doing the thing.
00:24:40.293 --> 00:24:41.160
Yes.
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:42.293
Damn the consequences.
00:24:42.293 --> 00:24:42.960
It's happening.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:43.726
Yes.
00:24:43.726 --> 00:24:45.460
Uh, you have to do that.
00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:51.526
Um, indecisions a decision every time you need to look at the team over the individual.
00:24:51.526 --> 00:24:52.026
Yep.
00:24:52.026 --> 00:24:53.826
Look at look at things as a whole.
00:24:53.826 --> 00:24:54.393
Not.
00:24:54.393 --> 00:24:56.192
I don't want to upset Bob.
00:24:56.192 --> 00:24:57.293
Bob's had a rough day.
00:24:57.293 --> 00:24:58.593
No. For the sake of your business.
00:24:58.593 --> 00:25:00.526
Your business is your baby, right?
00:25:00.526 --> 00:25:04.593
Don't piss off the rest of your staff because Bob has had a rough day.
00:25:04.593 --> 00:25:07.393
No bad idea.
00:25:07.393 --> 00:25:11.826
The thing that it leads to is oftentimes what we like to call suffering at scale.
00:25:13.492 --> 00:25:18.226
I like that just because you're not willing to suffer through one conversation.
00:25:18.226 --> 00:25:21.660
Everyone is going to have to suffer with the consequences of that.
00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:23.026
Um, the same thing.
00:25:23.026 --> 00:25:26.593
And I don't get accused of this piece.
00:25:26.593 --> 00:25:30.492
Um, some people, they try and be kind by adding fluff.
00:25:30.492 --> 00:25:33.925
No, um, I don't typically get accused of that anymore.
00:25:33.925 --> 00:25:34.992
Good.
00:25:34.992 --> 00:25:36.726
Um, I don't either.
00:25:36.726 --> 00:25:47.860
So. And once again, the, the the best example that I have of this is the fluff of, uh, right at the very beginning of office Space.
00:25:47.860 --> 00:25:52.192
Um. Hey, Peter, how's it going?
00:25:52.192 --> 00:25:52.593
That.
00:25:52.593 --> 00:25:53.660
How's it going?
00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:54.093
Yeah.
00:25:54.093 --> 00:25:54.960
He didn't care.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:56.360
No, that's the fluff.
00:25:56.360 --> 00:26:00.692
I'm going to try and make you feel good and like I care before I beat you up about something.
00:26:00.692 --> 00:26:01.759
No, don't even ask.
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:03.360
Don't even ask.
00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:05.726
Hey, Peter, fix the TPS reports.
00:26:05.726 --> 00:26:06.326
Yeah.
00:26:06.326 --> 00:26:07.593
Oh, you already have that memo.
00:26:07.593 --> 00:26:08.226
Great.
00:26:08.226 --> 00:26:08.526
Yeah.
00:26:08.526 --> 00:26:10.793
Appreciate the work you're doing now to get that done.
00:26:10.793 --> 00:26:11.692
Thank you.
00:26:11.692 --> 00:26:12.793
Right.
00:26:12.793 --> 00:26:13.925
I mean, it's so funny.
00:26:13.925 --> 00:26:18.226
It's one of those things where I don't think they intentionally wrote the kindness in there.
00:26:18.226 --> 00:26:19.893
Yeah, but it totally fits.
00:26:19.893 --> 00:26:20.726
Oh it does.
00:26:20.726 --> 00:26:28.226
And the same thing is, if you want classic examples of this, I mean, this whole thing, we could have just played an episode of The Office.
00:26:28.226 --> 00:26:29.226
Any one of them.
00:26:29.226 --> 00:26:30.026
Oh, absolutely.
00:26:30.026 --> 00:26:32.492
Anything that involves Michael Scott.
00:26:32.492 --> 00:26:33.192
He wants to.
00:26:33.192 --> 00:26:35.526
I mean, he wants people to fear how much they love him.
00:26:36.860 --> 00:26:40.593
No, no you don't.
00:26:40.593 --> 00:26:47.093
No, no, no. I want my people to have respect for me and occasionally be pissed off at me.
00:26:47.093 --> 00:26:48.026
And they should be.
00:26:48.026 --> 00:26:48.692
They should be.
00:26:48.692 --> 00:26:51.692
Yeah, they're they're occasionally going to have a dartboard with my picture on it.
00:26:51.692 --> 00:26:52.793
I'm here to make them better.
00:26:52.793 --> 00:26:54.293
They're here to help me be better.
00:26:54.293 --> 00:26:54.726
Correct.
00:26:54.726 --> 00:26:55.793
We're going to grow the business.
00:26:55.793 --> 00:26:59.692
It's to me, it is that it's very much a coaching thing.
00:26:59.692 --> 00:27:00.226
Yeah.
00:27:00.226 --> 00:27:02.960
Uh, you've heard me say this at nauseam.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:06.593
Success is a shared thing, is our core value of our business.
00:27:06.593 --> 00:27:10.526
If my employees are successful, I will be also.
00:27:10.526 --> 00:27:11.593
Absolutely.
00:27:11.593 --> 00:27:17.293
In that occasionally there's going to be some Uncomfortable things.
00:27:17.293 --> 00:27:18.192
It's the same thing.
00:27:18.192 --> 00:27:20.393
Think of it as like a running analogy.
00:27:20.393 --> 00:27:20.992
Yeah.
00:27:20.992 --> 00:27:24.759
You don't get to the finish line, like, comfortably.
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:29.093
No. At least not in anything but last place?
00:27:29.093 --> 00:27:30.293
No.
00:27:30.293 --> 00:27:32.793
Um. We're both big.
00:27:32.793 --> 00:27:35.160
You're the one that coined this, the sweaty Tim.
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:36.893
You're the one that said this here first.
00:27:36.893 --> 00:27:37.360
Yes.
00:27:37.360 --> 00:27:39.160
The sweaty ten minute conversation.
00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:40.559
Yes.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:42.759
What's what's your first big tip on that?
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.093
So it doesn't get easier by waiting.
00:27:45.093 --> 00:27:46.559
It only gets heavier.
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:49.460
So you just got so much freaking do it.
00:27:49.460 --> 00:27:53.660
So but what helps is framing it around shared goals, not personal failure.
00:27:53.660 --> 00:28:03.026
So you walk in knowing three things when you have the sweaty ten minute conversation, what behavior needs to change, why it matters to the team, and what better looks like going forward?
00:28:03.026 --> 00:28:03.925
Yes, and you can.
00:28:03.925 --> 00:28:06.692
You can augment that with the dear man give fast framework.
00:28:06.692 --> 00:28:15.259
Or you can you can just answer those three questions, but know that behind every ten minute or behind every communication problem is a sweaty ten minute conversation you don't want to have.
00:28:15.259 --> 00:28:16.826
And that is Gay Hendricks The Big Leap.
00:28:16.826 --> 00:28:19.460
It's one of the best books about mindset that I've ever read.
00:28:19.460 --> 00:28:23.293
So the one that I, that I go back to is what better looks like going forward?
00:28:23.293 --> 00:28:36.259
To me, the goal here is where we need to be and from from my perspective, when I say, here's the goal, here's where we need to be, how can I help?
00:28:36.259 --> 00:28:38.425
Because, you know, those are the two things that I'm always going to say together.
00:28:38.425 --> 00:28:39.393
Here's where we're going.
00:28:39.393 --> 00:28:40.192
How can I help?
00:28:40.192 --> 00:28:44.425
Yes, ninety percent of the time they're like, I just need to do the thing.
00:28:44.425 --> 00:28:46.360
Yeah, you don't need to help.
00:28:46.360 --> 00:28:48.526
You need to offer your help.
00:28:48.526 --> 00:28:49.259
Exactly.
00:28:49.259 --> 00:28:50.460
But just be there.
00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:50.826
Yes.
00:28:50.826 --> 00:29:04.393
And if you are someone who gets emotionally hijacked because you're not being quote unquote nice, then really, like, practice the conversation, write it down, take some notes, coach it on your own, practice it in front of a mirror.
00:29:04.393 --> 00:29:06.226
And I know people are probably rolling their eyes like, really?
00:29:06.226 --> 00:29:06.826
I need to do that.
00:29:06.826 --> 00:29:08.160
Yes you do, you do.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:17.925
Because if you're not good at this and it does not come natural to you, you need to practice it because I promise you, your business will get so much better when you are good at having these conversations.
00:29:17.925 --> 00:29:23.559
And even if you preface it with, we're going to have a hard conversation right now and I'm probably going to suck at it, but we're going to figure it out together.
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.593
I've prefaced conversations with that before where I've had to deal with something that's difficult.
00:29:27.593 --> 00:29:29.559
I'm like, look, we're going to have a sweaty conversation.
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:30.526
I don't want to have it.
00:29:30.526 --> 00:29:33.226
You don't want to have it, but we're going to have it right now.
00:29:33.226 --> 00:29:34.660
And then we get through it.
00:29:34.660 --> 00:29:40.992
It's funny because this is the thing where I find the difference between us, because you've had to coach yourself through it.
00:29:40.992 --> 00:29:42.692
I'm just naturally an asshole.
00:29:46.526 --> 00:29:47.559
I can't be too.
00:29:47.559 --> 00:30:43.190
I just I also know that there are times where I can get emotionally hijacked, especially in working in a generational family business where there are there were individuals that were in the organization, like when I was in fifth grade and I had to deal with, how do I coach these individuals to do something right, or how do I coach them to do the things that I need to do?
00:30:43.190 --> 00:30:45.322
How do I create guardrails and expectations?
00:30:45.322 --> 00:30:46.889
I just want them to like me.
00:30:46.889 --> 00:30:51.855
Well, at the end of the day, there was one that was never going to like me because he hated the fact that I was in charge and he wasn't.
00:30:51.855 --> 00:30:53.522
I'm like, you didn't write a three million dollars check?
00:30:53.522 --> 00:30:53.990
And I did.
00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:55.155
So tough.
00:30:55.155 --> 00:30:55.623
Toenails.
00:30:55.623 --> 00:30:56.923
This is what it is.
00:30:56.923 --> 00:30:59.855
So like it is.
00:30:59.855 --> 00:31:02.556
Speaking of emotionally hijacked.
00:31:02.556 --> 00:31:06.556
So I had to walk through good conversations and I had to practice.
00:31:08.423 --> 00:31:09.755
Where people were like, you're so polished.
00:31:09.755 --> 00:31:12.355
It's like, because I've had to do so much crappy work on it.
00:31:12.355 --> 00:31:12.822
It's just.
00:31:12.822 --> 00:31:13.855
And it's not easy.
00:31:13.855 --> 00:31:14.690
It's hard.
00:31:14.690 --> 00:31:16.789
It's getting the reps in it.
00:31:16.789 --> 00:31:19.123
What's so tough about it?
00:31:19.123 --> 00:31:20.355
It's the same thing with our podcast.
00:31:20.355 --> 00:31:23.855
If you go back and listen to episode one, it's tough.
00:31:23.855 --> 00:31:24.556
It's still good.
00:31:24.556 --> 00:31:26.855
Yeah, it's tough, it's tough.
00:31:26.855 --> 00:31:28.822
But we did it.
00:31:28.822 --> 00:31:32.155
But I, I listened to this to be like, how can I get better?
00:31:32.155 --> 00:31:34.022
How can I make sure I'm on the mic?
00:31:34.022 --> 00:31:36.222
How can I eliminate some things that I don't like?
00:31:36.222 --> 00:31:38.789
How can I make sure that I'm speaking correctly?
00:31:38.789 --> 00:31:42.389
You have to put that work in and you have to be intentional about it.
00:31:42.389 --> 00:31:42.855
Yes.
00:31:42.855 --> 00:31:46.855
Um, unless you're naturally an ass like me, it's just.
00:31:47.855 --> 00:31:52.123
So let's go to kindness versus niceness.
00:31:52.123 --> 00:31:54.455
Yeah, sure.
00:31:54.455 --> 00:31:56.022
What do you think the difference is?
00:31:56.022 --> 00:31:57.990
So niceness protects the leader's comfort.
00:31:57.990 --> 00:32:00.222
And kindness protects a person's growth.
00:32:00.222 --> 00:32:00.789
Ooh.
00:32:00.789 --> 00:32:03.056
Yeah, it's that's really simple.
00:32:03.056 --> 00:32:04.722
Kindness is uncomfortable.
00:32:04.722 --> 00:32:07.222
Niceness is convenient.
00:32:07.222 --> 00:32:08.490
To be clear is to be kind.
00:32:08.490 --> 00:32:14.190
And it is to be kind as to sometimes do the uncomfortable thing for yourself and for that person.
00:32:14.190 --> 00:32:14.623
Yeah.
00:32:14.623 --> 00:32:26.855
It's the and it's funny because when you think about it, in so many cases, typically the hard thing is the right thing.
00:32:26.855 --> 00:32:31.556
It is the difficult thing is the right thing.
00:32:31.556 --> 00:32:34.822
And that's what you have to look at with this.
00:32:34.822 --> 00:32:38.789
Um, being nice is typically very easy to do.
00:32:38.789 --> 00:32:40.722
It is it's more difficult for some people.
00:32:40.722 --> 00:32:43.255
Some people are just natural born jerks.
00:32:43.255 --> 00:32:44.522
But we're not.
00:32:44.522 --> 00:32:46.789
And most, most and I would say our listeners aren't.
00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:49.355
And if they are, then I've got questions.
00:32:49.355 --> 00:32:51.056
Um, but I would say.
00:32:51.056 --> 00:32:51.990
How did you find us?
00:32:51.990 --> 00:32:53.123
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:53.123 --> 00:32:59.789
But I would say if you're staying silent because you're worried about how you're going to feel in the moment, that's not kindness, that's self-protection.
00:32:59.789 --> 00:33:00.490
Yeah.
00:33:00.490 --> 00:33:06.123
So I mean, kindness is really being willing to sit in discomfort so someone else can succeed.
00:33:06.123 --> 00:33:09.855
And if you're not willing to do that, then you probably shouldn't have employees.
00:33:09.855 --> 00:33:10.355
Correct.
00:33:10.355 --> 00:33:15.855
And I feel like the other thing is too, is you also shouldn't have employees.
00:33:15.855 --> 00:33:18.589
You have to say you have to be kind.
00:33:18.589 --> 00:33:24.022
And in being kind, sometimes you have to sit in the mud with the person that you just said that to.
00:33:24.022 --> 00:33:24.755
Yes.
00:33:24.755 --> 00:33:27.923
You can't just be like, hey, your performance sucked.
00:33:27.923 --> 00:33:30.123
Turn around and walk out of the room.
00:33:30.123 --> 00:33:32.923
You have to be there to address it with them.
00:33:32.923 --> 00:33:37.222
And that is part of that being kind instead of being nice.
00:33:38.289 --> 00:33:39.389
Okay.
00:33:39.389 --> 00:33:41.289
Key takeaways.
00:33:41.289 --> 00:33:42.755
I think we got a lot of them here.
00:33:42.755 --> 00:33:43.923
We do.
00:33:43.923 --> 00:33:45.222
You had some good ones here.
00:33:46.923 --> 00:33:51.423
I'll let you start with one, because this is I think this is more up your alley.
00:33:51.423 --> 00:33:52.556
So is the kindness check.
00:33:52.556 --> 00:34:00.222
So before staying silent, you need to ask yourself, am I being quiet for their benefit or to protect myself from that awkward moment?
00:34:00.222 --> 00:34:02.522
Is this about them or is this about me?
00:34:02.522 --> 00:34:02.923
Yeah.
00:34:02.923 --> 00:34:06.423
No, that's that's a huge, huge one.
00:34:06.423 --> 00:34:11.123
Uh, for me, the one that I want to jump to is the protect the standard, not the story.
00:34:11.123 --> 00:34:11.856
I like that.
00:34:11.856 --> 00:34:15.990
Um, look at what's actually happening.
00:34:15.990 --> 00:34:17.255
Look at, like, what?
00:34:17.255 --> 00:34:19.655
Your standards are not the fact.
00:34:19.655 --> 00:34:27.556
And, I mean, I get that if someone's having issues, if someone's having personal problems, you need to address those things, but they still need to be addressed.
00:34:27.556 --> 00:34:28.090
Yeah.
00:34:28.090 --> 00:34:31.322
Ignoring them is not being kind.
00:34:31.322 --> 00:34:31.990
Yeah.
00:34:31.990 --> 00:34:34.523
And I would say you normalize your nervous system.
00:34:34.523 --> 00:34:39.056
So if the conversation is hard or it feels hard, just name it.
00:34:39.056 --> 00:34:43.222
You know you can say this might feel uncomfortable, but this conversation matters.
00:34:43.222 --> 00:34:44.789
You can preface it.
00:34:44.789 --> 00:34:46.322
It lowers defensiveness.
00:34:46.322 --> 00:34:48.556
It models emotional regulation.
00:34:48.556 --> 00:34:52.155
Leaders who regulate first create space for honesty to land.
00:34:52.155 --> 00:35:01.489
And even if the person doesn't like the conversation and the direction that it goes, you have at least shown that you are human, that you care, and that you want to be clear, and that it is.
00:35:01.489 --> 00:35:03.422
And this isn't easy for you either.
00:35:03.422 --> 00:35:07.022
I'm glad you explained that, because when you said name it yes.
00:35:07.022 --> 00:35:09.155
If someone asked me like, where are you going?
00:35:09.155 --> 00:35:11.123
I'm going to go have a bob.
00:35:11.123 --> 00:35:12.855
No, that's not what I mean.
00:35:12.855 --> 00:35:16.623
Naming it as we're going to have a sweaty ten minute conversation after the person.
00:35:16.623 --> 00:35:17.322
No, don't name it.
00:35:17.322 --> 00:35:19.855
No, no, don't do that.
00:35:19.855 --> 00:35:20.190
Okay.
00:35:20.190 --> 00:35:21.589
I just wanted I just wanted to check.
00:35:21.589 --> 00:35:23.422
No, I just just wanted to make sure.
00:35:23.422 --> 00:35:24.190
Name the feeling.
00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:25.623
Name the situation.
00:35:25.623 --> 00:35:27.222
Don't give it an actual name.
00:35:27.222 --> 00:35:27.690
Name?
00:35:27.690 --> 00:35:34.123
No. Uh, the other one is to schedule it, put it on a calendar, make sure it's going to happen.
00:35:34.123 --> 00:35:34.955
Uh, if you say.
00:35:34.955 --> 00:35:36.355
I'll get to that later.
00:35:36.355 --> 00:35:38.222
Oh, look, an email just came in.
00:35:38.222 --> 00:35:39.322
I'll answer that.
00:35:39.322 --> 00:35:39.955
Yeah.
00:35:39.955 --> 00:35:41.289
Granted, it was spam.
00:35:41.289 --> 00:35:42.955
Stop it.
00:35:42.955 --> 00:35:43.722
Stop it.
00:35:43.722 --> 00:35:45.189
Put it on the calendar.
00:35:45.189 --> 00:35:46.122
Just do it.
00:35:46.122 --> 00:35:46.455
Yes.
00:35:46.455 --> 00:35:47.889
Just get it done and over with.
00:35:47.889 --> 00:35:51.855
Well, and I would tell you to from an HR perspective, we document the growth.
00:35:51.855 --> 00:35:54.922
So you ensure that the feedback is documented and constructive.
00:35:54.922 --> 00:36:04.422
And you're giving the employee a clear roadmap for what better looks like, because there are some times where you'll have these conversations and better does not happen.
00:36:04.422 --> 00:36:09.555
So it's really important that you have it documented so that you can continue to figure out what your next roadmap is going to be.
00:36:09.555 --> 00:36:11.455
Totally agree.
00:36:11.455 --> 00:36:19.489
So I know like you're you're totally perfect with this, so am I. So we don't have we won't have an answer to this.
00:36:19.489 --> 00:36:24.089
But what's one nice thing you said recently that you wish you'd been more direct about?
00:36:24.089 --> 00:36:25.689
So let's circle back on that.
00:36:25.689 --> 00:36:27.455
Let's let's come back to that later.
00:36:27.455 --> 00:36:31.955
First off, I hate I know you hate that saying, but there are times where it's just like, you know, we're gonna put a pin in it.
00:36:31.955 --> 00:36:33.022
We're gonna let it go.
00:36:33.022 --> 00:36:33.489
All the things.
00:36:33.489 --> 00:36:34.922
Can I hit all the things that you hate?
00:36:34.922 --> 00:36:36.855
I'm doing it right now.
00:36:36.855 --> 00:36:37.622
But it's true.
00:36:37.622 --> 00:36:38.422
You just say, you know what?
00:36:38.422 --> 00:36:39.689
Let's come back to that later.
00:36:39.689 --> 00:36:40.589
That wasn't nice.
00:36:40.589 --> 00:36:40.922
Yeah.
00:36:40.922 --> 00:36:42.355
Too bad.
00:36:42.355 --> 00:36:43.855
So, you know, let's come back to it.
00:36:43.855 --> 00:36:46.955
What I really meant, and what I should have said was, this isn't working and it needs to change.
00:36:46.955 --> 00:36:47.922
But instead I'm like, you know what?
00:36:47.922 --> 00:36:50.955
Let's just let's let's table it for a moment and we'll come back to it.
00:36:50.955 --> 00:36:53.289
No, we should have freaking killed it.
00:36:53.289 --> 00:37:02.022
So because what I've learned that sometimes when you delay that, like when you soften the clarity to be nice, you create more work later.
00:37:02.022 --> 00:37:03.522
So I created more work for myself.
00:37:03.522 --> 00:37:05.122
And I was like, you know what?
00:37:05.122 --> 00:37:06.289
We're close to the holidays.
00:37:06.289 --> 00:37:07.155
It's open enrollment.
00:37:07.155 --> 00:37:09.389
Let's just let's just put that over here.
00:37:09.389 --> 00:37:18.689
And what I really should have said was, this needs to be solved and it needs to be solved immediately, and I didn't the I have, I have caught myself in that same thing.
00:37:18.689 --> 00:37:21.922
The only way.
00:37:21.922 --> 00:37:29.389
There's two ways that I will say that horrible thing, and I won't say, let's circle back on that.
00:37:29.389 --> 00:37:32.755
Yeah, there's only two reasons that I give myself as a way out on that.
00:37:32.755 --> 00:37:35.955
A we need more information that we don't have right now.
00:37:35.955 --> 00:37:39.555
B we are at a dead standstill.
00:37:39.555 --> 00:37:42.355
We are not making any progress on that.
00:37:42.355 --> 00:37:44.855
We need to stop and we need to come back.
00:37:44.855 --> 00:37:54.455
But it has to be shown that we are at a standstill and we need to like sometimes you just we're going to revisit this after a night's rest, right?
00:37:54.455 --> 00:37:54.689
Yeah.
00:37:54.689 --> 00:38:00.855
We're at a block on something as more and more people are typing their emails with AI.
00:38:00.855 --> 00:38:01.522
Yes.
00:38:02.622 --> 00:38:07.355
Is AI more or less kind now?
00:38:07.355 --> 00:38:09.089
Not nice?
00:38:09.089 --> 00:38:10.955
Kind.
00:38:10.955 --> 00:38:15.222
So I would say if you don't know how to use AI effectively, it's making it worse.
00:38:15.222 --> 00:38:18.455
And it's not not kind or clear.
00:38:18.455 --> 00:38:19.022
Right.
00:38:19.022 --> 00:38:21.022
So and here's my problem with this.
00:38:21.022 --> 00:38:23.955
Everyone according to everyone is using AI correctly.
00:38:23.955 --> 00:38:24.955
No they're not.
00:38:24.955 --> 00:38:30.322
Because like, to me, ChatGPT is the world's biggest kiss ass.
00:38:30.322 --> 00:38:31.089
It is.
00:38:31.089 --> 00:38:33.655
And kindness still requires courage.
00:38:33.655 --> 00:38:35.355
So you've got to be able to.
00:38:35.355 --> 00:38:36.189
Well, I just want.
00:38:36.189 --> 00:38:39.089
Let's see if they can make this sound better than what I need.
00:38:39.089 --> 00:38:40.489
And they're like, oh, this is great.
00:38:40.489 --> 00:38:44.555
But if someone doesn't understand what you're trying to tell them, it doesn't work.
00:38:44.555 --> 00:38:52.422
And you know, if AI becomes a way for you to avoid those conversations, you're like, I'll just have AI do it so I can avoid the sweaty ten minute conversation.
00:38:52.422 --> 00:38:55.022
I'll avoid the pain that's not making us kinder.
00:38:55.022 --> 00:38:57.522
It's making avoidance more efficient.
00:38:57.522 --> 00:39:00.822
So you're getting more efficient at avoiding the problem that you have.
00:39:00.822 --> 00:39:03.355
So I guess, yay for you.
00:39:03.355 --> 00:39:09.322
You've got more time to do other things that you've avoided that conversation, but you've continued to avoid other things.
00:39:09.322 --> 00:39:10.589
Yeah, you've made it faster.
00:39:10.589 --> 00:39:14.289
So I mean, yeah, I don't I don't think it's helping right now.
00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:18.455
It, it it will be able to over time if you can use it correctly.
00:39:18.455 --> 00:39:20.789
But I don't know that everyone's going to use it correctly.
00:39:20.789 --> 00:39:30.322
No. And I think the problem is, is most people that I talk to, they're the AI stuff that they are using is far too soft with them.
00:39:30.322 --> 00:39:31.022
And oh gosh.
00:39:31.022 --> 00:39:31.322
Yeah.
00:39:31.322 --> 00:39:31.789
Yeah.
00:39:31.789 --> 00:39:39.089
It's like, yeah, I was working with AI and it told me this, this and this and this and I'm like, yeah, no human would told you that.
00:39:39.089 --> 00:39:48.055
No. And I was working on something yesterday and I finally like, had to I had to re I rewrote the prompt because I'm like, you're you're not I don't need validation, I need data.
00:39:48.055 --> 00:39:49.622
Correct.
00:39:49.622 --> 00:39:50.022
Same.
00:39:50.022 --> 00:39:54.322
I've been working on a big project with AI and stuff and I'm like, you need to yell at me.
00:39:54.322 --> 00:39:56.222
I need you to call me an idiot sometimes.
00:39:56.222 --> 00:39:57.422
Give me my blind spots.
00:39:57.422 --> 00:39:58.422
Tell me what's wrong.
00:39:58.422 --> 00:39:59.955
Don't validate my feelings.
00:39:59.955 --> 00:40:01.355
That's why I have a therapist.
00:40:01.355 --> 00:40:02.189
So.
00:40:02.189 --> 00:40:02.855
No.
00:40:04.722 --> 00:40:05.055
Yeah.
00:40:05.055 --> 00:40:06.955
No, I totally agree on that.
00:40:06.955 --> 00:40:15.522
The the other thing that I found is too, is what I would say I, when I was being kind, would send a page and a half email.
00:40:15.522 --> 00:40:18.855
Yes, I did to AI would help me trim that down.
00:40:18.855 --> 00:40:21.422
Yes in some cases so that it would help me with.
00:40:21.422 --> 00:40:26.322
So if you type out the four page email and like I need help summarizing this.
00:40:26.322 --> 00:40:26.955
Correct.
00:40:26.955 --> 00:40:28.922
Yeah, that is a way to use that.
00:40:28.922 --> 00:40:31.622
AI is not it is not the writer.
00:40:31.622 --> 00:40:33.322
You have to be the editor.
00:40:33.322 --> 00:40:33.889
Yes.
00:40:33.889 --> 00:40:34.689
So yeah.
00:40:34.689 --> 00:40:38.722
Question though to for you on the marketing side as marketing trend I got a question.
00:40:38.722 --> 00:40:42.722
rise of vulnerability, authenticity and brand messaging.
00:40:42.722 --> 00:40:44.355
Do you think it's getting too performative?
00:40:44.355 --> 00:40:44.755
Oh, God.
00:40:44.755 --> 00:40:45.122
Yeah.
00:40:45.122 --> 00:40:45.689
Okay, good.
00:40:45.689 --> 00:40:49.955
Because I see so many people that and it's so funny.
00:40:49.955 --> 00:40:54.455
My I guess I would say my spidey sense for that.
00:40:54.455 --> 00:40:56.355
Hey, guys.
00:40:56.355 --> 00:40:57.222
Type of thing.
00:40:57.222 --> 00:40:57.689
Yeah.
00:40:57.689 --> 00:41:01.322
Is I get so turned off so quickly.
00:41:01.322 --> 00:41:01.722
Yeah.
00:41:01.722 --> 00:41:05.389
By most, it's interesting.
00:41:05.389 --> 00:41:10.689
Most content creators, I get very turned off by very quickly because it's so performative.
00:41:10.689 --> 00:41:11.922
Yeah.
00:41:11.922 --> 00:41:13.155
It just drives me insane.
00:41:13.155 --> 00:41:16.955
I see this and I'm like, oh, you aren't that person.
00:41:16.955 --> 00:41:19.989
No, you're this person in front of the camera.
00:41:19.989 --> 00:41:22.155
Yeah, but you aren't that person.
00:41:22.155 --> 00:41:27.022
Um, if someone meets either one of us in the street, they can be pretty sure that.
00:41:27.022 --> 00:41:29.589
Yeah, especially if they've watched the long form.
00:41:29.589 --> 00:41:30.222
Yes.
00:41:30.222 --> 00:41:31.722
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:31.722 --> 00:41:32.522
Snippets, too.
00:41:32.522 --> 00:41:35.455
I mean, yeah, this is warts and all.
00:41:35.455 --> 00:41:35.922
This is it.
00:41:35.922 --> 00:41:36.789
Right.
00:41:36.789 --> 00:41:37.589
That's those people.
00:41:37.589 --> 00:41:37.922
That's it?
00:41:37.922 --> 00:41:38.189
Yeah.
00:41:38.189 --> 00:41:39.222
That's very much those people.
00:41:39.222 --> 00:41:40.255
That's exactly what she says.
00:41:40.255 --> 00:41:41.189
She does rhyme a lot.
00:41:41.189 --> 00:41:41.722
Yes I do.
00:41:41.722 --> 00:41:42.322
Yeah.
00:41:42.322 --> 00:41:44.722
She puts that iteration together.
00:41:44.722 --> 00:41:45.189
Yeah.
00:41:45.189 --> 00:41:46.855
No, that's exactly what she does.
00:41:46.855 --> 00:41:47.255
But yeah.
00:41:47.255 --> 00:41:48.222
No I see that.
00:41:48.222 --> 00:41:52.089
And it's the problem is, is it's that performative.
00:41:52.089 --> 00:41:55.489
It's once again it's people trying to be nice instead of being direct.
00:41:55.489 --> 00:41:55.889
Yeah.
00:41:55.889 --> 00:41:58.355
I'm curious to see in the next year how that changes.
00:41:58.355 --> 00:41:59.189
I am too.
00:41:59.189 --> 00:42:06.422
The other thing that I'll say is too is I see it in so many cases with, um, like, I'll take a lot of content creators.
00:42:06.422 --> 00:42:08.189
I'll take a motorcycle review.
00:42:08.189 --> 00:42:11.022
Um, there's a motorcycle was recently released.
00:42:11.022 --> 00:42:13.955
All of the keyboard warriors were saying, this is wrong with it.
00:42:13.955 --> 00:42:14.655
This is wrong with it.
00:42:14.655 --> 00:42:15.355
This is wrong with it.
00:42:15.355 --> 00:42:16.055
This is wrong with it.
00:42:16.055 --> 00:42:17.222
This is wrong with it.
00:42:17.222 --> 00:42:19.322
None of them had ridden that motorcycle.
00:42:19.322 --> 00:42:25.589
Oh, no. I rode that motorcycle and I thought, this thing is amazing.
00:42:25.589 --> 00:42:26.422
It's brilliant.
00:42:26.422 --> 00:42:28.589
They did a phenomenal job with this.
00:42:28.589 --> 00:42:34.622
But I hear a lot of content creators are like, oh, people want to hear this.
00:42:34.622 --> 00:42:35.955
So this is what I'm going to tell them.
00:42:35.955 --> 00:42:37.989
That's what ChatGPT is telling them to say.
00:42:37.989 --> 00:42:38.555
Correct.
00:42:38.555 --> 00:42:44.222
Whereas the ones that I actually trust are saying like, look, I, I got this, I like this.
00:42:44.222 --> 00:42:47.422
There's one or two things that I'm like, overall it's brilliant.
00:42:47.422 --> 00:42:50.722
And those are the ones where I'm like, okay, these are the people that are being authentic.
00:42:50.722 --> 00:42:51.089
Yeah.
00:42:51.089 --> 00:42:53.289
Experience an original thought.
00:42:53.289 --> 00:42:54.122
Imagine.
00:42:54.122 --> 00:43:04.722
I know it's amazing that, um, speaking of original thoughts, there is forty two episodes worth on business Podcast.com.
00:43:04.722 --> 00:43:05.789
People should go there.
00:43:05.789 --> 00:43:07.522
They should look at all the stuff.
00:43:07.522 --> 00:43:10.155
They should binge all the episodes.
00:43:10.155 --> 00:43:11.755
Uh, just put it.
00:43:11.755 --> 00:43:16.189
I don't know if I'd be understandable at one point five times, but maybe it's.
00:43:16.189 --> 00:43:18.455
We're interesting too.
00:43:18.455 --> 00:43:21.122
At two times speed, I sound like a chipmunk.
00:43:21.122 --> 00:43:25.322
So I will say that I'm glad you said that because I've noticed that too.
00:43:25.322 --> 00:43:27.289
I do, I talk fast.
00:43:27.289 --> 00:43:28.422
Sorry, guys.
00:43:28.422 --> 00:43:29.289
Not sorry.
00:43:29.289 --> 00:43:30.622
It's efficient.
00:43:30.622 --> 00:43:33.622
It's Chrissy's highly efficient.
00:43:33.622 --> 00:43:38.689
Make sure you get us at the business picks on all the social medias.
00:43:38.689 --> 00:43:40.489
Would love to hear a review from you.
00:43:40.489 --> 00:43:41.455
How are we doing?
00:43:41.455 --> 00:43:42.122
Yes.
00:43:42.122 --> 00:43:42.655
Are we good?
00:43:42.655 --> 00:43:43.289
We bad.
00:43:43.289 --> 00:43:44.522
We screwing this up?
00:43:44.522 --> 00:43:45.522
Mhm.
00:43:45.522 --> 00:43:46.355
Who knows.
00:43:46.355 --> 00:43:47.689
Chrissy's like start punching me.
00:43:47.689 --> 00:43:48.689
Mid-episode.
00:43:48.689 --> 00:43:50.722
Any one of those things I already know.
00:43:50.722 --> 00:43:52.889
Tammy's gonna say a big yes to that one.
00:43:52.889 --> 00:43:58.122
That being said, next week's episode is culture.
00:44:00.089 --> 00:44:01.122
Dun dun dun.
00:44:02.122 --> 00:44:02.922
Hahaha.
00:44:04.722 --> 00:44:05.789
It's gonna be fun.
00:44:05.789 --> 00:44:06.422
It is.
00:44:06.422 --> 00:44:07.922
That being said, do us a favor.
00:44:07.922 --> 00:44:08.955
Take care of yourself.
00:44:08.955 --> 00:44:14.189
If you can take care of someone else too, we will see you very, very soon.