The Rockstar Trap: Why Top Performers Often Fail as Managers

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I'm going to start this week with an analogy because, you know, that fits and it's going to be about a certain rock star, Vince Neil, that guy in the 80s tore it up.
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And as they got bigger, oh, did it get worse as he got promoted?
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Oh, did it get worse?
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Have you ever seen a rock star, like, get promoted to something new?
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And suddenly they are no longer the rock star? Yes.
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They act more like a rock being tossed into the water.
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They're sinking as fast as they can.
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And they want to grab on to you to take.
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Them. You're not taking me with you?
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No, no, no, we are going to talk about the rock star trap.
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And we are to talk about the Peter Principle.
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And you need to stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need.
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The business fix.
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Have you ever promoted someone and thought that was a bad idea?
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Yeah, yeah, I have a.
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Complete lack of hesitation there. Yeah.
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Once again, wasn't even done with a question.
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Chris is like, oh gosh. I've done it.
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I've watched other people in organizations do it. I've said, don't do it.
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People haven't listened to me.
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Yeah, yeah, oh. I've done it.
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I've even been a part of it where I'm oh yeah, yeah.
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I was like, oh, I am ready for that promotion.
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I got promoted and that was like, why?
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Why is this so awful?
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I thought this corner office was just going.
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I mean, I sat here with my feet kicked up and we really.
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Why isn't this easy?
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The the problem that I see is so many people hire based on past performance instead of looking forward.
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Yeah.
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The problem is, is it's it's a wonderful thing to be able to promote from within.
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I it's one of the most amazing things to be able to give someone that gift of promoting from within because they grow, the organization grows.
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It's usually I mean smooth if you do it correctly.
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They've already understand the values and the culture. Correct?
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Yes. The biggest mistake that I see so many people.
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Make.
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Is that they promote someone based on their past performance, and they don't treat it like a job interview.
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Correct?
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It should be like a job interview, like, how are you going to handle these things in the future?
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Not I saw that you're a good salesman.
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You should be a great sales manager. No.
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The Peter Principle concept that I was allude to is employees are promoted until they reach their level of incompetence.
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I've worked with a number of government agencies, and this seems to be rampant there.
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That's where it's the best. Yeah.
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It is. You've worked really, really hard.
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So we're going to promote you to a job that you can no longer perform.
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And we're going to leave you there because obviously we can't promote you anymore.
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So you end up with someone in a job that can't do it.
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Yeah.
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So many times out of, out of loyalty.
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Hey, I think they may leave if they don't get a raise and a promotion.
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They really want this job.
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We must change their title.
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The problem that I see in so many cases where they're like, we must change their title and give them a promotion.
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You can do that without giving, without making them do a different job.
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Yes. Tweak the.
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Job, change the title.
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Give them a couple of more dollars.
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We'll get into this.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. This is going to be. Yes.
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I'm excited to talk about this one.
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Is there any first off, is there anything good going on.
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We've we've unbanned or heard a few of these.
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I mean it's travel seasons. Good time.
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Like all the visioning is working on things.
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That sounds like my personal hell.
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I know it's great.
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You. I'm going to sunny places, so I am not upset.
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Oh, okay.
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I can see that you're going to sunny.
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Yeah.
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Sunny.
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Places to do work and visioning and goal setting and all sorts of fun things.
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Visioning, visioning, working with other business owners on how do we vision our business for the next year?
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How do we do this for the next five years?
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Yeah, this is okay.
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I stuff I can see that.
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I can see that is good.
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I love planning, you know that. Oh, I do too.
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But it's it's the travel piece of it that I'm kind of like.
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Oh no, that's fine.
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I get a lot of work done on airplanes.
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I know you've talked about that.
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Or is I just.
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I have to have a window seat because I don't care if it's the same clouds the whole time I'm staring out the window.
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Okay, so what about you?
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How are you doing?
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You count down the days to spring. Yeah.
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How did you guess, So, what I find, though, what's interesting, is this time of year, I get to reset because, I mean, I walk the dog usually every day, sometimes twice a day, and during the winter.
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I can't always do that.
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So that in some cases gives me like an hour of my day back.
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Don't get me wrong, I love spending time walking my dog.
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I have never regretted walking with the dog.
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I'm never in the same sense.
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It's time.
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There's a lot of other stuff yard work, things like that.
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So this gives me that chance to reset.
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Kind of.
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I don't want to say take a break because.
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There are not I don't know, I know that, but it's staying in season.
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I'm not going out. Yeah.
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Right. It's it's it's staying there.
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Plus the other thing is, is like there's all sorts of stuff like I would like to improve with motorcycles myself, things of that nature.
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This is the season to do that.
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So same is it same but different as you know, yours is less mechanical, I guess.
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Very much so.
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And the garage is my healing place.
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I mean, it the the bike may as well be a therapist.
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It's just there's no leather couch.
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I'm just standing there talking with it like, hey, this is the thing.
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What happens when you put that top performer, like the piece?
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That's always difficult, because we always get into is you have a top performer, you're like, hey, do they want a promotion?
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How do I keep them engaged?
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How do I keep them?
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How do I keep them engaged?
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Because the problem is, is if you promote them to something that they can't do well, now, they may as well have just left.
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Yeah.
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Additionally, like, if so, if you boot them or, like, if you put them to a position that they're incapable of or if they leave, you've lost a top performer, which there's always high stakes in that you don't typically you don't typically want to lose a top performer.
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Yeah, we've all done it before.
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We're like, oh no, this is bad.
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But in the same sense it's if you can prevent it, you want to, but you don't want to.
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Yeah.
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In in trying to prevent losing a top performer, you also don't want to punch yourself in the face.
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Make it worse. Correct.
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So when you're talking with me, I mean you're looking at personnel strategy all the time.
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I know you do it both in your business and at clarity HR.
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Why is there such a disconnect between the doer and the leader.
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Because we see in so many cases great leaders aren't necessarily the big doers.
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No. How do you, how do you, how do you do that math.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, I'll just I mean, being honest, I promoted rockstars into management, thinking this is going to be great. Yes.
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And then they're amazing at the work. It's going to be fantastic.
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And sometimes it was until it wasn't.
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And other times it just wasn't.
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So it's just you know, I am speaking from a place of where I have screwed this up.
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So saying, hey, same, same.
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Over time, I realize there's really a pattern in some of these.
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And when, you know, a top performer struggles as a manager and almost always comes down to one of three things.
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And fortunately for you, Josh, they all start with the letter. I.
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I know you're very excited.
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I kid you not for like for when your birthday happens.
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Yes I'm going to get you the letter people.
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Oh I would love that I would.
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So the three things in dealing with the rock star trap their identity, interaction and intention.
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So, I like. Those. Yes.
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So identity number one, who gets the win.
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All right. So the first gap rock stars get their sense of worth from what they produce.
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And they feel successful when they check things off, solve problems and save the day.
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There's a reason why they're a rock star.
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Yes. Right.
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So managers have to flip that completely as managers, their way in comes from what other people produce, and that's a huge shift.
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And it's one that I've underestimated early on.
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And it's something that I underestimated myself too, like, oh, wait a second, I got to manage people.
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It's not all about me.
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No, it's not.
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So I got to give a quick a sports analogy.
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This, as a former soccer player, there's that star on the field.
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You see them celebrate like mad when they score.
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They have a tougher time celebrating when they give the assist.
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Yes, that's a good one.
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I mean, I I've watched it hundreds of times.
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It's difference between a rock star and a leader.
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Yep. Rock star and a manager.
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So you know, I've seen incredible employees struggle because they felt invisible once they stopped doing once they got promoted to being the manager, and then they kept jumping back into the work because that's where they felt competent and valued.
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This is something we've also talked about with business owners.
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We're like, don't break it. Are you are you bored? Yep.
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I mean, you can do the same thing as a business owner, like when you hire people and then you're like, oh, but I'm not the one anymore.
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Yeah, it's good for you. It's okay.
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So if you cannot shift your identity or that person cannot shift their identity from hero to coach, management is always going to feel like a loss instead of growth.
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So they're not going to want to be a manager if they're not going to want to be a coach.
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And that's the first thing you got to talk about when you're starting to say, I want a promotion, I want to be in management.
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Are you ready to lead people and are you ready to not be number one, the smartest person in the room and number two, the person that's always the hero.
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Are you ready to be the coach on the sideline?
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Correct.
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Yeah. You be the coach.
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That's that's the I think I think we could end the podcast there and still be good.
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But I know you've got more to go. Yeah. So we did I mean the next is interaction.
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All right. That's that gap.
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So people skills versus task skills.
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And this is huge.
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So being great at the job doesn't mean you're great with people right.
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It doesn't.
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And I learned that the hard way. So just because you're good at this doesn't mean you're going to be good at the people part.
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Technical brilliance doesn't equal emotional intelligence.
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There's a reason why I've worked on a lot of emotional intelligence trainings.
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All right, so learn from me.
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I had gaps, I still am continuing to get better.
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I've got to interject here, this guy Galloway thing that I used to, I spent so much of my career being right instead of being effective. Yes.
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Fits in this perfectly, It does, because leadership requires skills.
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Most rock stars were never hired for.
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That's coaching.
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They weren't hired to coach people unless they were hired to be a rock star.
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Consultant conflict? Yep.
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Most of them weren't weren't brought in to deal with conflict resolution, feedback, and empathy.
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The big one is empathy.
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Most rock stars do not have empathy.
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They have sympathy for the people that can't perform like them.
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They do not have empathy. Yeah.
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So I mean, and I've watched new managers panic when they realize their job is no longer solving problems, that it's helping other people.
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It's navigating emotions.
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Yeah.
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White eyes like, oh crap, I got to deal with the squishy people part.
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Yeah. That's what managers too.
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Yeah.
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So and if no one trains them for that, then they default to impatience avoidance and micromanagement.
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And that is those are red flags for just disaster in the organization.
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So I guess we would never promote someone in finance without teaching them the numbers and how to do the math.
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But we do it with people all the time.
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When it comes to management.
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We don't teach them emotional intelligence, we don't give them soft skills training.
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And we're like fly baby bird.
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And they do into a window.
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Oh that's bad.
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I mean, to me it beautifully said.
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And it's the I mean, the biggest piece is we don't give them the expectation.
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No, just be a manager.
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Be a manager. Well, what the hell does that mean?
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And if you're not a good manager and you're modeling what you're supposed to be, man, you better be good at it too.
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So if you're leading leaders, you need to build those skills as well.
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So that's the interaction.
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Build the soft people skills.
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Build your resilient operating system.
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Learn how to communicate effectively.
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Learn how to give feedback.
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Learn how and as a rock star, learn how to take feedback because you're probably not going to be good at the manager part when you start. No.
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So just be willing to suck at something new.
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I know that it's hard, but if you're really.
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The rock star. Yes.
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Yeah, you're.
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I used to be good at this. Yeah.
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While you're not right now, but it's okay. Let's get better.
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And if they don't want to get better, then that's where you kind of have that conversation about what do we do with this person?
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Another sports analogy for you, I, I don't I don't know why I'm on this today, but it's like when you play at like a, let's say a state level.
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And then you go to nationals.
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Yeah. It's a different.
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It's a different game.
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You got to learn different.
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It is.
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Yeah. All right.
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So that third eye is intention.
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So that's now versus next right. Yes.
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Top performers live in the now.
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They focused on how to do the work and what needs to happen today.
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Whereas leaders have to live in the next.
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They have to pull people towards the future.
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They have to align them to a bigger why and make decisions that don't pay off immediately, which is hard for a rock star. Yes.
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What do you mean?
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I don't get applause right now.
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What do you mean?
00:13:51.947 --> 00:13:54.240
I have to wait six months for all of this to work.
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.447
It's another one of those broken or bored.
00:13:56.447 --> 00:13:58.322
What do you mean? I have to be patient.
00:13:58.322 --> 00:14:03.906
And I have promoted people who are incredible executors but had no desire to think long term.
00:14:03.990 --> 00:14:04.615
And that's.
00:14:05.656 --> 00:14:07.947
That's not a character flaw, just a mismatch.
00:14:07.947 --> 00:14:10.865
I laugh because been there, done that. I have to that was me.
00:14:10.865 --> 00:14:13.156
And I'm like, wait a second, I got to be patient.
00:14:13.156 --> 00:14:14.072
I can't break it.
00:14:14.072 --> 00:14:17.031
I mean, do you know how hard it is?
00:14:17.031 --> 00:14:26.490
And you do when like I can see what needs to be done in 12 months and I want it done now, and I'm just going to do it myself because I can get it done in one month.
00:14:26.906 --> 00:14:27.990
I've done that. It's been bad.
00:14:27.990 --> 00:14:30.156
Don't do it. It's me reminding myself.
00:14:30.156 --> 00:14:33.156
Because again, we're going through some really big initiatives this year.
00:14:33.156 --> 00:14:34.740
Note to self. Yes.
00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:38.281
So I'm going to send you this podcast on a weekly basis for you to read.
00:14:38.322 --> 00:14:39.447
I probably need it.
00:14:39.447 --> 00:14:43.781
And it's here's, here's when I wrote this out, I was like, oh, crazy.
00:14:44.781 --> 00:14:52.322
If someone can't lift their head up from the task long enough to lead people forward, management is going to feel like constant frustration. Yep.
00:14:52.822 --> 00:14:54.615
For them and for the team.
00:14:54.615 --> 00:14:56.197
So they're going to hate themselves.
00:14:56.197 --> 00:14:57.781
Their team is going to hate them as well.
00:14:57.781 --> 00:14:59.406
It's not.
00:14:59.406 --> 00:15:01.572
It's not just one thing. It's both.
00:15:01.572 --> 00:15:05.865
So when a rock star struggles as a manager, I'm not going to assume they failed.
00:15:05.865 --> 00:15:08.740
These are the three questions I'm going to ask with the three eyes.
00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:14.406
Is it an identity gap or is it an interaction gap, or is it an intention gap?
00:15:14.406 --> 00:15:17.406
And I've missed all of those signals before. Yep.
00:15:17.406 --> 00:15:18.990
In part with me.
00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:20.822
It's cost me time, turnover and trust.
00:15:20.822 --> 00:15:25.615
But once you know what to look for, you can promote with clarity instead of hope, because that's it.
00:15:25.615 --> 00:15:30.365
A lot of times when we're promoting people, we're just hoping that it's going to work one out.
00:15:30.365 --> 00:15:31.572
We're not certain.
00:15:31.572 --> 00:15:33.865
No, we're we're taking an estimation.
00:15:33.865 --> 00:15:35.615
We're like, they're a high performer.
00:15:35.615 --> 00:15:37.365
They can do everything.
00:15:37.365 --> 00:15:39.656
Yeah, no you can't.
00:15:39.656 --> 00:15:45.322
So here's let's shift to operations because I've talked about the aspirational identity interaction intention.
00:15:45.322 --> 00:15:50.822
So what happens to the actual workflow and the brand of the team when this promotion goes south.
00:15:52.156 --> 00:15:55.365
It's for talks from our experience when we screwed it up.
00:15:55.531 --> 00:15:58.115
So I don't have the three eyes.
00:15:55.531 --> 00:15:58.115
I have the three points.
00:15:58.115 --> 00:15:59.615
Yes I like these are the.
00:15:59.615 --> 00:16:02.906
So yeah, the first one is the operational bottle bottleneck.
00:16:02.947 --> 00:16:04.990
And I've seen this so many times.
00:16:04.990 --> 00:16:07.990
You have the hero manager.
00:16:08.031 --> 00:16:11.156
Yes. The team waits for the hero to be like, hey.
00:16:11.447 --> 00:16:14.447
We do. Correct.
00:16:14.740 --> 00:16:16.656
The PTO shouldn't be panic.
00:16:16.656 --> 00:16:17.697
You've said that, right?
00:16:17.697 --> 00:16:19.447
Is that the saying? Correct?
00:16:19.447 --> 00:16:19.740
Yeah.
00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:22.072
That managers out and there's not.
00:16:22.072 --> 00:16:23.572
They're there to dole out tasks.
00:16:23.572 --> 00:16:24.865
You can't live without them.
00:16:24.865 --> 00:16:27.865
No, no.
00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:37.531
The other thing is too, as you see it in so many cases that that scale that you talked about where like if you're doing things, your capacity is limited. Yes.
00:16:38.031 --> 00:16:43.697
As a leader, like you have to think like you don't have a limited capacity.
00:16:43.697 --> 00:16:46.990
Your people do and you have to work within that, but you don't.
00:16:46.990 --> 00:16:52.656
I mean, the capacity is limited by what's around you and your ability to bring more people in.
00:16:52.947 --> 00:16:55.406
It's not limited by what you can do.
00:16:55.406 --> 00:16:57.822
At least it shouldn't be if it is.
00:16:57.822 --> 00:17:12.655
Once again, the big thing is too, that I've seen in some cases is you get that if you promote that high performer and they come in and they, they like, oh no, no, no, no, this is how I do it.
00:17:12.697 --> 00:17:14.197
And that's how they were a high performer.
00:17:14.197 --> 00:17:23.740
And suddenly all of your SOPs and everything like that are out the window and they're like, no, we're doing it this way, my way.
00:17:23.740 --> 00:17:27.030
And you're like, no, I'm having a nightmare.
00:17:28.115 --> 00:17:31.572
So yeah, it's and it's once again, it comes down to their individual talent.
00:17:31.655 --> 00:17:32.572
Yeah.
00:17:32.572 --> 00:17:40.447
I when I was at Summit Racing, I was incredibly fast on the phone because I had, like, catalog pages memorized.
00:17:40.447 --> 00:17:42.072
Memorized, not everybody's going to do that.
00:17:42.072 --> 00:17:43.490
Not everyone's going to do that.
00:17:43.490 --> 00:17:47.365
And that's what made me a high performer there would have made me a good boss.
00:17:48.030 --> 00:17:51.030
No, definitely not.
00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:53.280
Definitely not.
00:17:53.280 --> 00:18:02.615
The other thing is too is so like in so many cases, we market management, to our employees is like, this is the path forward.
00:18:02.615 --> 00:18:03.948
This is where you want to be.
00:18:03.948 --> 00:18:07.655
You want the executive suite, you want the whatever.
00:18:08.073 --> 00:18:14.698
No, it's it's not like you you can level up without necessarily changing floors in the organization.
00:18:14.740 --> 00:18:19.240
Yes. You don't need to be on the top level to do really, really well.
00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:25.740
Yes. Additionally, you have to acknowledge when someone is at the top of their game. Yes.
00:18:26.198 --> 00:18:27.865
This is what they are capable of.
00:18:27.865 --> 00:18:30.240
This is where they are.
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.405
Brilliant.
00:18:32.405 --> 00:18:34.115
Don't move them from that.
00:18:34.115 --> 00:18:37.323
No, I'm going to say this and I need everyone to hear me.
00:18:37.990 --> 00:18:41.780
Do not promote your lead salesperson to sales manager.
00:18:42.490 --> 00:18:44.115
Just don't do it.
00:18:44.115 --> 00:18:45.365
That is the most common one.
00:18:45.365 --> 00:18:48.115
It's dumb and it's what every organization does.
00:18:48.115 --> 00:18:49.405
And then they're like, what happened?
00:18:49.405 --> 00:18:51.405
And it becomes contentious.
00:18:51.405 --> 00:18:56.865
It becomes and generally rarely in that situation is that person salvageable.
00:18:56.948 --> 00:18:59.073
And it's not because they are a bad person.
00:18:59.073 --> 00:19:02.865
It's because you have created an environment for them where they cannot be any more.
00:19:02.865 --> 00:19:05.280
And more often than not, they will leave.
00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:12.323
You might be able to rescue them with professional development so they can stay in that role, or you might be able to move them back into sales.
00:19:12.323 --> 00:19:14.073
But it is really hard to do that.
00:19:14.073 --> 00:19:22.655
So if you're going to move somebody in your sales department, because that's the one where it's most likely to get screwed up, really think about it.
00:19:23.115 --> 00:19:27.030
The funny thing is, and I want to mention, well, this is what really typically happens with that.
00:19:27.030 --> 00:19:28.405
And I've had this happen to me.
00:19:28.405 --> 00:19:31.405
I was a salesman, just started an organization.
00:19:31.655 --> 00:19:37.365
They promoted the previous salesman to sales manager, but let him keep sales duties.
00:19:37.365 --> 00:19:39.573
No. Take extremely. Hard.
00:19:39.573 --> 00:19:42.365
No, we'll take a guess at who got every good phone call.
00:19:42.365 --> 00:19:44.573
Absolutely. Also, yeah.
00:19:44.573 --> 00:19:46.740
No, it was an absolute nightmare.
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:49.448
Now, the problem is, is do you like.
00:19:49.448 --> 00:19:55.948
And this is what we talked about a little bit earlier, like, hey, I'm going to lose this person if something good doesn't happen for them soon.
00:19:55.948 --> 00:19:58.655
As the top performer, you don't want to lose your salespeople.
00:19:58.655 --> 00:20:01.365
First off, treat them well. Yes.
00:20:01.365 --> 00:20:05.780
But don't promote them into a role that they're going to stumble in because you're going to lose them.
00:20:05.780 --> 00:20:08.698
Then they're just going to cripple your business in the process.
00:20:08.698 --> 00:20:11.823
Well, and this is where dialog with your employees is important.
00:20:11.905 --> 00:20:14.905
So yeah, tell us tell me what your goals are.
00:20:14.948 --> 00:20:17.405
Tell me what you want to achieve by being here.
00:20:17.405 --> 00:20:19.115
Because this is a this is a two way street.
00:20:19.115 --> 00:20:20.865
It's a dance and it's dialog.
00:20:20.865 --> 00:20:25.073
They may not ever want to be in charge of anything, so don't know.
00:20:25.530 --> 00:20:28.280
We've seen that. So how about you ask?
00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:30.780
Or if they're well I feel like this is something I have to do.
00:20:30.780 --> 00:20:33.780
No it's not. No you don't have to do that.
00:20:34.405 --> 00:20:47.740
If the goal and a lot of times with sales, they are they're motivated by being able to, you know, check the boxes, close the sales, grow things the way they want, make more money, and if that is what their motivator is, then fuel it.
00:20:48.155 --> 00:20:54.198
Not everybody's motivator is management that some of them think that's what it has to be.
00:20:51.573 --> 00:20:54.198
Because that's what they've been doing.
00:20:54.198 --> 00:20:55.615
That's what they've been told.
00:20:55.615 --> 00:21:02.615
Do not create a culture where the only thing that they see as achievement is manager status. No.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:08.240
The things that I always say, there's always profit sharing, there's high level bonuses.
00:21:09.030 --> 00:21:10.405
There's specialized perks.
00:21:10.405 --> 00:21:11.530
Yes. Find it.
00:21:11.530 --> 00:21:13.655
I mean, professional development.
00:21:13.655 --> 00:21:16.655
Send them to that, send them build different skills.
00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:17.615
Correct.
00:21:17.615 --> 00:21:25.740
They I mean, and there's all sorts of ways like there's, there's a different incentive structures with company cars.
00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:35.365
I mean, there are all sorts of ways to say, look, if you get to this level, it's going to be and I guarantee as the company owner, it is going to be worth it for you.
00:21:35.365 --> 00:21:36.198
It is.
00:21:36.198 --> 00:21:40.448
To. Now, the only thing that I will say as a trap is don't offer that every single week.
00:21:40.448 --> 00:21:44.948
No, don't offer that every month because then they're just going to be like, I'm leaving unless you do this.
00:21:44.948 --> 00:21:49.990
And tie it to KPIs, tie it to performance 100 and have regular reviews.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:22:01.448
People get into trouble in this section of of their managing of their business because they don't pay attention quarterly, or they're not keeping a cadence of communication with their employee. Yep.
00:22:01.990 --> 00:22:02.405
Totally.
00:22:04.115 --> 00:22:06.073
What happens when it goes wrong?
00:22:06.073 --> 00:22:07.990
It's pensive.
00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:10.530
That's really expensive.
00:22:10.530 --> 00:22:11.155
It is.
00:22:11.155 --> 00:22:13.115
Not only like let's say you promote the.
00:22:13.115 --> 00:22:14.490
Person. Yeah.
00:22:14.490 --> 00:22:19.698
Not only did you lose their production, but now you've crippled your department.
00:22:19.698 --> 00:22:22.865
Yeah, because now they've got your department has a bad manager.
00:22:23.490 --> 00:22:27.823
I have never found a bad manager being good for a department or its productivity.
00:22:28.115 --> 00:22:30.240
Oh, unless you want everybody to exit. Right.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.740
If you want to get rid of people, you say, oh, we promote this person.
00:22:32.740 --> 00:22:33.780
Everyone will leave.
00:22:33.780 --> 00:22:35.990
I mean, if that's your intention, right?
00:22:35.990 --> 00:22:37.365
We ever seen that a clarity?
00:22:37.365 --> 00:22:39.323
No, no.
00:22:39.323 --> 00:22:45.780
I have seen where there's bit where we started to see some people leave and it's like, here's your warning sign.
00:22:45.780 --> 00:22:47.823
You got an issue there like we do.
00:22:47.823 --> 00:22:49.115
Yes you do.
00:22:49.115 --> 00:22:49.990
There's some red flags.
00:22:49.990 --> 00:22:51.990
Yeah.
00:22:49.990 --> 00:22:51.990
But not we haven't had a mass exodus.
00:22:51.990 --> 00:22:55.490
We did have a mass exodus with an insurance client once.
00:22:56.615 --> 00:23:00.115
Oh that where it was where it was literally like that.
00:23:00.115 --> 00:23:01.530
The team had eight people.
00:23:01.530 --> 00:23:03.698
Seven of them left. Yikes.
00:23:03.698 --> 00:23:06.365
Which is also, I mean, a cautionary tale.
00:23:06.365 --> 00:23:15.865
And when you hire, all of the people are in the same family and they don't own the business, and you take one off and they all go together, that's that's a bad.
00:23:15.865 --> 00:23:20.155
Yeah, it was a really he had a really bad, bad, probably 12 months at least.
00:23:20.448 --> 00:23:22.615
He's still in business.
00:23:20.448 --> 00:23:22.615
But it looks very different.
00:23:22.615 --> 00:23:30.740
I'm sure I'm sure it's it's interesting when you say that too, because like we've talked about like a number of months back, meta hired a bunch of rock stars.
00:23:30.990 --> 00:23:33.198
Oh yeah. And tried to get them all to work together.
00:23:33.198 --> 00:23:36.198
This was a pop popcorn because, you know, it's not going to work, right?
00:23:36.490 --> 00:23:37.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.573
Get get the popcorn out, get a blanket and just sit back and watch.
00:23:41.573 --> 00:23:43.530
They did not establish psychological safety.
00:23:43.530 --> 00:23:47.405
They did not do the team building things they were supposed to do from civility from our last episode.
00:23:47.405 --> 00:23:50.155
No, they just looked at it.
00:23:47.405 --> 00:23:50.155
They just let them all do their thing.
00:23:50.155 --> 00:23:53.240
And and you get a bunch of eight players in there and. No.
00:23:54.530 --> 00:23:55.448
Not going to work.
00:23:55.448 --> 00:23:56.530
Not going to work.
00:23:56.530 --> 00:24:09.115
The other thing is to is when a bad manager, like if they get to the point where it's quitting, they're going to cause any other high performers in the team to like leave or they're, they're going to take other things down.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:12.250
The problem is with this, this is going to leave a legacy. Yes.
00:25:12.250 --> 00:25:15.085
Like if they quit, the problem's not over.
00:25:15.085 --> 00:25:17.293
Yes. It's not just, hey, they quit.
00:25:17.293 --> 00:25:20.293
They caused some real damage.
00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:24.875
That is going to take months and or years to repair.
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:35.960
Every hour, like the hero spent fixing mistake is an hour they didn't spend on strategy or marketing or moving things forward.
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:36.750
Yeah.
00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:38.960
And it just turns to junk. Does.
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:40.335
Yeah. It's just awful.
00:25:41.625 --> 00:25:43.668
So what is.
00:25:43.668 --> 00:25:45.460
Oh, I love this.
00:25:45.460 --> 00:25:50.835
What is the no conversation when it comes to your rock stars?
00:25:51.585 --> 00:25:54.210
Oh, that is the.
00:25:54.210 --> 00:25:59.375
I value you too much as blank to set you up for failure in management.
00:25:59.375 --> 00:26:00.335
That's hard.
00:26:00.335 --> 00:26:02.293
It's really hard to hear.
00:26:02.293 --> 00:26:04.543
That is a ten minute sweaty sentence.
00:26:04.543 --> 00:26:05.668
It is. It's a real it.
00:26:05.668 --> 00:26:06.960
That's for dear man. Get fast.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.085
Really comes in build those interpersonal effective skills.
00:26:09.085 --> 00:26:09.875
It really is.
00:26:09.875 --> 00:26:12.835
So it's one of the hardest, most loving conversations that a leader can have.
00:26:12.835 --> 00:26:16.460
And framing it how you frame it matters.
00:26:17.043 --> 00:26:18.750
You can't just be like nope, you're not ready.
00:26:18.750 --> 00:26:36.043
Like maybe if you're in a family business, like and that's how you talk to each other, but you cannot do that generally with a human, especially when they are a really good performer and they're coming to you saying, this is what I want to do, and you're going, I know that maybe what you think you want to do, but that's not it.
00:26:36.043 --> 00:26:37.668
There's a there's a gap there. Yeah.
00:26:37.668 --> 00:26:41.250
And it's figuring out like it's not saying, hey, you idiot.
00:26:41.625 --> 00:26:42.500
Yeah.
00:26:42.500 --> 00:26:46.710
It is saying, look, they may not know the things that are expected of them. Yes.
00:26:47.043 --> 00:26:48.375
If they move to leadership.
00:26:48.375 --> 00:26:49.960
Yeah. Or they're like, I want your job.
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:52.960
You're like, okay, well, let's talk about what my job really is.
00:26:53.375 --> 00:26:54.085
That that's.
00:26:54.085 --> 00:26:56.750
You're seeing you're seeing the smiling part of my job.
00:26:56.750 --> 00:26:58.210
You're not seeing all these other things.
00:26:58.210 --> 00:27:00.210
So let's talk about what I do. Right.
00:27:00.210 --> 00:27:08.500
Another thing I would say is, you know, is that gap analysis with them because there may be things, you know, showing them the specific leadership skills they lack. Yep.
00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:24.335
So that no feels like a not yet because there are some people that I think can be good managers if they can develop the skills, because part of what makes you a good manager is being able to be coachable, to coach other people and being open to change.
00:27:24.335 --> 00:27:35.168
You cannot be set in your ways and rigid, so a know without that context feels like rejection and not yet with a skills gap and saying, this is the pathway that we're going to do to develop it.
00:27:35.418 --> 00:27:38.750
I think that feels like I mean, it feels like development, it feels like progress.
00:27:38.750 --> 00:27:39.125
It is.
00:27:39.125 --> 00:27:46.210
And it's the big thing is, is it's saying, hey, there's some pieces about this that you don't necessarily that you can't see.
00:27:46.335 --> 00:27:47.293
Yeah.
00:27:47.293 --> 00:27:51.750
It's not that you don't know, it's that you can't see what's going on with this and how we're doing things.
00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:58.335
And the problem is, too, is it took me until like my mid 30s to find a decent mentor.
00:27:58.335 --> 00:28:01.335
Yes. That coached me on how to properly manage people.
00:28:01.750 --> 00:28:05.750
And all I had before that was horrific toxic examples.
00:28:05.793 --> 00:28:06.335
Exactly.
00:28:06.335 --> 00:28:12.625
So if someone comes in as a high performer and they're there for a year and they think, hey, this is great, I should be doing the things.
00:28:12.625 --> 00:28:16.918
But like most of their prior experience was with crappy management.
00:28:16.918 --> 00:28:23.585
Yeah, you have to be like, we need to we need to work on polishing this up to make sure that this is ready.
00:28:23.585 --> 00:28:23.875
Yeah.
00:28:23.875 --> 00:28:30.250
And it's so much about, you know, how we say it, but then also creating the path for them to decide, do you succeed?
00:28:30.543 --> 00:28:37.210
So if you're like, no, you're not ready yet and you don't provide any way for them to develop, then they're going to leave anyway. Yep.
00:28:37.335 --> 00:28:47.293
You still, you have to be a good leader and a good manager to be able to manage the situation as well, because you've got to be able also, you've got gap analysis.
00:28:47.293 --> 00:28:50.335
You know, I don't think you're ready yet, but here's the things that you need to potentially do.
00:28:50.335 --> 00:28:52.418
Here's the things that I think you should work on.
00:28:52.418 --> 00:28:54.875
Let's work on building those skills together.
00:28:56.210 --> 00:28:59.835
How about we work on I mean, you have someone that wants to be in management.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.710
Don't look at them, don't know.
00:29:02.710 --> 00:29:04.418
Don't last.
00:29:04.418 --> 00:29:06.918
Now say, you know that's a that's a really.
00:29:06.918 --> 00:29:08.750
And tell me more about why.
00:29:08.750 --> 00:29:11.250
The way you said that I was like no bad dog.
00:29:11.250 --> 00:29:20.625
Yeah. No I do that. Cit no I it's funny the way you present that in that way because too often people are said, hey, you're not ready.
00:29:20.710 --> 00:29:21.293
Yeah.
00:29:21.293 --> 00:29:24.500
But not given any tools like you're not ready yet.
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.750
Well, why am I not ready yet?
00:29:26.750 --> 00:29:34.625
And I mean, the only example that I can give for that is like, if a kid gets ready to go outside and it's winter.
00:29:35.418 --> 00:29:39.460
Yeah, you're going to tell them, hey, let's get you a coat and some boots on.
00:29:40.335 --> 00:29:42.960
If they're standing there in their socks and underwear.
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:44.793
Yeah, you can say you're not ready.
00:29:44.793 --> 00:29:46.293
But the kid's like, no, no, no, I'm ready.
00:29:47.710 --> 00:29:49.710
You're not ready right now.
00:29:49.710 --> 00:29:51.875
You're not right. Yes. That's.
00:29:51.875 --> 00:29:55.500
So if you you have to show them, hey, here's a jacket.
00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:57.085
Here's how we put the jacket on.
00:29:57.085 --> 00:29:59.625
Here's snow pants. Here's how we put the snow pit.
00:29:59.625 --> 00:30:02.210
Those are the things that you have to show them.
00:30:02.210 --> 00:30:03.960
Clarify those expectations.
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.085
Correct. Here's where you need to go.
00:30:06.085 --> 00:30:07.125
Not just you're not ready.
00:30:07.125 --> 00:30:11.585
Because I guarantee you that kid is running out into the snow. Yes.
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:17.960
And it's really and it's okay for you to have the conversation of, you know, you're not ready yet.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:17.960
Here's where we need to go. Yes.
00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:20.625
And then also modeling what you want that part.
00:30:20.625 --> 00:30:22.043
And don't forget about them.
00:30:22.043 --> 00:30:24.793
Don't leave them over on the island in their professional development plan.
00:30:24.793 --> 00:30:27.043
Like we have someone right now in our organization.
00:30:27.043 --> 00:30:34.418
She's been with us for well over a decade, and we've slowly worked on getting her to a space where she has developed.
00:30:34.418 --> 00:30:36.085
And this is no longer job.
00:30:36.085 --> 00:30:37.668
This is career now.
00:30:37.668 --> 00:30:46.918
So we had a conversation about two months ago, and she has told me several times, I'm not ready or I've told her, we're going to move you forward.
00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:49.375
Here's how we're going to work through that.
00:30:49.375 --> 00:30:52.918
And now we had the conversation together of you're ready and you're going to move forward.
00:30:52.918 --> 00:31:00.918
And this is what we're going to do in order to get you where you need to be so that you can be successful, because some of it is you have to be able to coach those people.
00:31:00.918 --> 00:31:02.500
They have to be willing to be coachable.
00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:11.500
And if someone there's a difference between someone being coachable and accelerating in their career and being coachable in the job that they are in right now, I am perfectly happy.
00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:13.585
If someone is coachable in the job that they are in right now.
00:31:13.585 --> 00:31:16.918
I don't need everybody in the organization to want to ascend all at once.
00:31:16.918 --> 00:31:18.710
It becomes chaotic.
00:31:18.710 --> 00:31:19.418
Oh sure.
00:31:19.418 --> 00:31:22.085
And then you run into that competition and all the other stuff.
00:31:22.085 --> 00:31:24.210
Correct. So we don't we don't have to deal with that.
00:31:24.210 --> 00:31:25.335
Fortunately, an organization.
00:31:25.335 --> 00:31:42.710
But I think it's really important that you show people the leadership skills that they need to build. You don't block their path. That's the other part is if they want like you have, as you grow as a leader, as your business grows, you are not going to be the only hero you know, and you got to let other people be the hero.
00:31:42.710 --> 00:31:46.210
Yes, the the one word that I want to like, focus on that.
00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:47.710
You said there was path.
00:31:47.710 --> 00:31:50.918
Too many times people say you're not ready and they just.
00:31:51.250 --> 00:31:52.543
And I'm not going to show you. Right.
00:31:52.543 --> 00:31:55.000
And they just leave them standing there. Jerks.
00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.460
Like, here's a path.
00:31:57.460 --> 00:32:04.375
There's there's a certain speed you may be able to go on on this path, but know that this is a path at least.
00:32:04.543 --> 00:32:06.250
And we may take turns on this path.
00:32:06.250 --> 00:32:07.418
Yes, but.
00:32:07.418 --> 00:32:09.710
There is at least a direction that we are headed.
00:32:09.710 --> 00:32:13.875
Not just sit your ass down and shut up until I call your name. No.
00:32:14.793 --> 00:32:16.750
And then you wonder why people quit.
00:32:16.750 --> 00:32:18.000
I don't know why anybody wants to work for me.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.210
Someone because you're an asshole.
00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:23.418
Go. Right. Sorry. Correct. What?
00:32:23.418 --> 00:32:26.710
I never that I always get when people are like no one wants to work anymore.
00:32:26.710 --> 00:32:28.000
I'm kind of like. For you.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:28.750
I correct.
00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:30.750
I always want to add that I'm like, really?
00:32:30.750 --> 00:32:31.875
I haven't had much of a problem.
00:32:33.168 --> 00:32:38.918
That being said, what happens when we've made that mistake?
00:32:39.835 --> 00:32:41.500
Yeah. Bob, you're a great salesman.
00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:42.335
I think he would make.
00:32:42.335 --> 00:32:46.875
As our sales staff grows, I think you would make a great sales manager.
00:32:47.418 --> 00:32:48.000
Go ahead.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:49.543
Bob, here's the new desk.
00:32:49.543 --> 00:32:51.793
Here's the shiny new car.
00:32:51.793 --> 00:32:54.835
And just the look on your face says, like it?
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:58.000
Like, I feel like that was a PTSD look.
00:32:58.460 --> 00:33:01.125
Yeah.
00:33:01.125 --> 00:33:03.168
It's the reason why I was very quick.
00:33:40.498 --> 00:33:42.205
Christie went to a bad place.
00:33:42.205 --> 00:33:43.623
There, remember?
00:33:43.623 --> 00:33:44.748
Do you need a minute to come back?
00:33:44.748 --> 00:33:47.748
I do, I think a second.
00:33:48.248 --> 00:33:49.455
How do you rescue this?
00:33:49.455 --> 00:33:50.373
How do you save this?
00:33:50.373 --> 00:33:52.373
So I would say, first of all, it's shameless plug in.
00:33:52.373 --> 00:33:53.664
I do not care.
00:33:53.664 --> 00:34:00.748
You need to call an expert who can help you do this, because you are probably not going to navigate it unscathed.
00:34:00.748 --> 00:34:06.164
If you try to do it alone, you're probably still going to have some some bruises because you that's just not working.
00:34:06.498 --> 00:34:11.623
So it is really important that you have somebody who can help you see what what you can do, what you can't do.
00:34:11.664 --> 00:34:12.873
We're just going to reverse this.
00:34:12.873 --> 00:34:15.414
Like it didn't even happen and take back your pay. Take back it.
00:34:16.373 --> 00:34:16.706
Yeah.
00:34:16.706 --> 00:34:17.331
Talk to somebody.
00:34:17.331 --> 00:34:18.539
Make sure you're doing it the right way.
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:21.414
So that's that's number one.
00:34:21.414 --> 00:34:23.414
Don't undo this.
00:34:23.414 --> 00:34:24.706
I want to swear I'm not going to.
00:34:24.706 --> 00:34:25.706
You can't undo that.
00:34:25.706 --> 00:34:28.706
So just let somebody else help you through it.
00:34:28.789 --> 00:34:35.664
You can undo a promotion, but how you do it matters 100%. So.
00:34:35.664 --> 00:34:39.206
And here's what I will say to we talk about dignity.
00:34:39.206 --> 00:34:42.123
We've talked about it in terminations not stepping on people's dignity.
00:34:42.123 --> 00:34:46.414
When you have a termination demotion does not equal humiliation.
00:34:46.414 --> 00:34:49.705
No change in direction does not equal humiliation.
00:34:49.705 --> 00:35:00.164
So you have to handle, however this conversation goes, you must handle it with respect and dignity, which is another reason why it's helpful to have a third party in there who can help you navigate.
00:35:00.164 --> 00:35:05.998
Because chances are you're dealing with your own emotions because you made a bad decision to.
00:35:07.373 --> 00:35:09.455
So no, now you know.
00:35:09.455 --> 00:35:12.455
That would never cloud my decision. Yeah.
00:35:12.498 --> 00:35:17.914
So I would say to you want to frame it as realignment, not removal.
00:35:18.705 --> 00:35:21.705
So we put you in a role that doesn't play to your strengths.
00:35:22.955 --> 00:35:26.039
I love that piece because the problem is we did this.
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:27.164
We screwed this up.
00:35:27.164 --> 00:35:27.373
Yeah.
00:35:27.373 --> 00:35:28.705
I'm sorry I mess this up.
00:35:28.705 --> 00:35:30.664
And for you to say that is one thing.
00:35:30.664 --> 00:35:33.664
Now, the only other thing that I say that the it.
00:35:34.080 --> 00:35:35.664
There needs to be some elaboration.
00:35:35.664 --> 00:35:38.539
Yes, because the problem is documentation.
00:35:38.539 --> 00:35:40.664
You have to go in with documentation.
00:35:40.664 --> 00:35:42.872
This isn't working. Is not.
00:35:42.872 --> 00:35:44.664
No, that's not documentation.
00:35:44.664 --> 00:35:55.164
But the other thing that I see is, is you have to give them something to go off of, not just, we're we're going to go to a different we're going to go in a different direction.
00:35:55.164 --> 00:36:02.289
Because when people say that that doesn't take the sting of that demotion.
00:36:02.414 --> 00:36:06.039
Yes. You have to say you can't say we're going to go a different direction.
00:36:06.414 --> 00:36:12.414
You have to follow that up with this is the direction that we're going and why.
00:36:12.455 --> 00:36:12.872
Yeah.
00:36:12.872 --> 00:36:18.914
And it has to be an, an accurate thing that once again respects that person, respects why it's different.
00:36:19.497 --> 00:36:23.872
All of those things you have to think about, you can't just be like, we've decided we've.
00:36:23.872 --> 00:36:24.622
We're.
00:36:24.622 --> 00:36:32.372
We're going to go ahead and go a different direction because that once again, you may as well just say, hi, you're an idiot.
00:36:32.372 --> 00:36:33.914
Go back to the sales floor.
00:36:33.914 --> 00:36:36.080
And sue us because we say that's wrong.
00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:40.539
And I would say to the longer you wait, the more damage is done 100%.
00:36:40.539 --> 00:36:44.747
So to them, the person that you have promoted to failure and to the team.
00:36:45.955 --> 00:36:49.497
So you know, fast course correct builds more trust and letting them quietly fail.
00:36:50.497 --> 00:36:53.539
100% because when you let them sit there and flounder.
00:36:53.747 --> 00:36:54.955
Yeah.
00:36:54.955 --> 00:36:59.664
Or they're flailing about, they have I mean, they are feeling underwater too.
00:36:59.747 --> 00:37:00.122
They are.
00:37:00.122 --> 00:37:05.330
And there are some people that when you have this conversation, when it's done well, we'll say thank you. Yes.
00:37:05.330 --> 00:37:06.080
Thank you.
00:37:06.080 --> 00:37:07.372
I don't like what I'm doing.
00:37:07.372 --> 00:37:09.122
I would really like to do something else.
00:37:09.122 --> 00:37:11.039
I really like to go back to my old job.
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:12.580
I like to keep the pay that I have.
00:37:12.580 --> 00:37:14.247
You're like, okay, I screwed that up.
00:37:14.247 --> 00:37:15.414
So yes, you get to keep it.
00:37:15.414 --> 00:37:16.997
Yep. Yep. And it should be.
00:37:16.997 --> 00:37:19.122
Yeah. There's so many things with that.
00:37:19.122 --> 00:37:21.455
The the rescue mission is one of those things.
00:37:21.455 --> 00:37:23.039
Well yeah.
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:29.914
It's just it's it's fumbled so often and that's why I mean really the once again we come back to this.
00:37:30.247 --> 00:37:35.122
This is one that person's like look they just remove my dignity by saying you're getting demoted.
00:37:35.872 --> 00:37:37.789
And so now guess what?
00:37:37.789 --> 00:37:39.622
They're gone anyways. Yeah.
00:37:39.622 --> 00:37:41.664
Once you've done that they're out you.
00:37:41.664 --> 00:37:46.039
And depending on how you do it, if you don't do it right and create a hostile work, am I right? You can cause problems.
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:49.039
Those individuals too could leave and take people with them.
00:37:49.580 --> 00:37:51.580
So again that yeah.
00:37:51.580 --> 00:37:54.539
Especially there's always that one charismatic person where you're like.
00:37:54.539 --> 00:37:56.455
Oh I follow them. Yeah.
00:37:56.455 --> 00:37:59.330
Right. Right.
00:37:56.455 --> 00:37:59.330
They are the pied Piper. They can happen.
00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:00.455
They can do it with your clients.
00:38:00.455 --> 00:38:02.539
They could do it with you. It's like, how do you lock it down?
00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:05.122
How do you ensure that everything works the way it's supposed to?
00:38:05.122 --> 00:38:05.539
Yeah.
00:38:05.539 --> 00:38:07.164
How do you not screw it up?
00:38:07.164 --> 00:38:08.789
Even though you've already screwed it up?
00:38:08.789 --> 00:38:10.164
That's why you call an expert.
00:38:10.164 --> 00:38:16.372
The funny thing is that I was just thinking about with this, we are talking about how to handle rock stars.
00:38:16.955 --> 00:38:22.539
And you and I are both scared to death talking about this topic like oh this is, this is, this is bad.
00:38:22.622 --> 00:38:24.455
I know Daniel right.
00:38:24.455 --> 00:38:25.164
That's part of it.
00:38:25.164 --> 00:38:27.622
Part of it is we know we've done this. It's. Yeah.
00:38:27.622 --> 00:38:34.747
And but it's so tough because I mean we're talking about like rock stars having rock stars in your business, which it's wonderful.
00:38:34.747 --> 00:38:38.330
Like you're like, I just, I just think the thing and the person goes out.
00:38:38.330 --> 00:38:39.205
And I love them.
00:38:39.205 --> 00:38:40.497
I love them dearly.
00:38:40.497 --> 00:38:43.039
And you're like, this is awesome.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.039
And then we go in and screw it up. Yes.
00:38:46.122 --> 00:38:50.789
So yeah, there's so many reasons why, like, we don't want to discourage rock stars.
00:38:50.789 --> 00:39:00.872
Now in the same sense, we want to make sure that you handle them and the way that you work with them in your organization correctly, at least when it comes to promotions.
00:39:01.164 --> 00:39:05.664
Yes. That being said, a couple of key takeaways here to me.
00:39:05.664 --> 00:39:07.872
Yeah.
00:39:07.872 --> 00:39:12.289
I like a trial period to have someone shadow things.
00:39:13.414 --> 00:39:14.455
It makes sense.
00:39:14.455 --> 00:39:17.039
Like, is this what you actually want to do?
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.497
Yes. Here's here's the job.
00:39:19.497 --> 00:39:24.205
Do you want to go in and tell Susan that her TPS reports need another cover letter?
00:39:24.747 --> 00:39:28.122
Because if you don't, this probably isn't the right job for you. No.
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:31.580
Go ahead with the next.
00:39:31.580 --> 00:39:35.330
So I would say professional development is non-negotiable. Yep.
00:39:35.414 --> 00:39:38.997
When you promote promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible.
00:39:39.664 --> 00:39:41.372
It absolutely is, and I don't.
00:39:41.372 --> 00:39:44.955
I will look at you with a straight face and go, you can't do that.
00:39:45.497 --> 00:39:48.330
So if you promote, you owe them coaching, you owe them feedback.
00:39:48.330 --> 00:39:50.539
You owe them tools, you owe them support.
00:39:50.539 --> 00:39:52.372
And we talk about this all the time at clarity.
00:39:52.372 --> 00:39:55.914
And with resilient operating system, resilience and leadership are trained.
00:39:55.997 --> 00:39:57.580
They are not assumed.
00:39:57.580 --> 00:40:00.205
So you have got to train this into your team members.
00:40:00.205 --> 00:40:01.872
Yes, 100%.
00:40:01.872 --> 00:40:09.122
So, something else that most people don't realize with this is it's making sure that they know and you define it very early.
00:40:09.914 --> 00:40:13.372
Success is measured by how your team performs. Yes.
00:40:13.664 --> 00:40:20.289
When I was at the truck dealership, if someone quit, someone left, someone got fired.
00:40:21.080 --> 00:40:23.539
They were my responsibility.
00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:25.455
It didn't matter what department they were in.
00:40:25.455 --> 00:40:26.789
I had oversight over all of them.
00:40:26.789 --> 00:40:28.539
So it it was me.
00:40:28.539 --> 00:40:31.122
They're my people. They are my people.
00:40:32.455 --> 00:40:33.997
That is that's a big deal.
00:40:33.997 --> 00:40:40.622
And when you say that to a rock star and be like, look, if Billy Bob quits next week, that's on you.
00:40:41.997 --> 00:40:44.039
Who? Yeah.
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:46.164
That's, that's a different thing.
00:40:46.164 --> 00:40:48.497
So yeah, defining that success.
00:40:48.497 --> 00:40:51.497
Like, hey, if the team takes off and does really well.
00:40:52.914 --> 00:40:53.914
Awesome. Thank you.
00:40:53.914 --> 00:40:55.497
We're going to reward you for it. Yeah.
00:40:55.497 --> 00:40:59.372
If the team goes out and blows chunks, guess what?
00:40:59.372 --> 00:41:02.372
Still on you?
00:41:02.580 --> 00:41:04.539
Yes, I agree.
00:41:04.539 --> 00:41:09.039
And I would say as CEOs we have to redefine what success is at the top. So.
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:09.997
Oh yeah.
00:41:09.997 --> 00:41:12.997
So stop rewarding only output and start rewarding impact.
00:41:13.747 --> 00:41:16.039
Because if we don't refine and redefine that, do that.
00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:16.705
What again?
00:41:16.705 --> 00:41:19.955
So stop rewarding only output and start rewarding impact.
00:41:20.580 --> 00:41:21.289
That's huge.
00:41:21.289 --> 00:41:28.705
Yeah it is, because if your compensation and recognition systems only celebrate producers, you're going to keep creating accidental managers.
00:41:31.289 --> 00:41:32.330
And you don't want that.
00:41:32.330 --> 00:41:35.455
So leadership success is measured by team health not heroics.
00:41:35.455 --> 00:41:40.497
And if you don't redefine that standard, your culture is going to keep repeating the same mistake.
00:41:40.497 --> 00:41:46.414
And you're like, I don't understand why we we get a really good sales, we work on a sales manager and then they're gone in six months.
00:41:46.497 --> 00:41:49.497
It's happened six times.
00:41:50.539 --> 00:41:53.164
Don't look at me like you're shocked.
00:41:53.164 --> 00:41:56.164
Stop.
00:41:57.789 --> 00:42:02.372
So here's here's a conundrum, and I wonder how we're both going to, like, look at this one.
00:42:03.414 --> 00:42:06.622
Better to hire a manager from outside who knows how to lead.
00:42:07.247 --> 00:42:10.789
Or an insider that knows the work, but not leadership.
00:42:11.664 --> 00:42:14.455
So I think it depends on the problem that you're solving.
00:42:14.455 --> 00:42:15.039
I like that.
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:21.289
So if you need stability and leadership maturity, fast and external hire can be really the right move.
00:42:21.289 --> 00:42:27.622
If you promote internally, you have to invest in that leadership development because you either know if they've had it or they haven't.
00:42:27.830 --> 00:42:30.205
Otherwise you're promoting potential without support.
00:42:30.205 --> 00:42:31.205
So that's the question.
00:42:31.205 --> 00:42:35.997
Are you going to promote potential without support, or do you want somebody and who can hit the ground running?
00:42:35.997 --> 00:42:38.289
Now that said, you can interview someone, you can hire them.
00:42:38.289 --> 00:42:41.705
And they they may look good on paper, they may not look well in performance.
00:42:41.705 --> 00:42:49.080
So I would say though, if you're trying to solve something quickly, usually an external hire can get you a movement faster.
00:42:49.080 --> 00:42:50.080
What are you.
00:42:50.080 --> 00:42:53.872
Hey, I agree, for the most part it is that situation.
00:42:53.872 --> 00:43:08.289
It's very situational, but for the most part, I have found that bringing someone in from the outside that at least has some industry knowledge is a bigger deal, is a better deal than pulling someone up.
00:43:08.289 --> 00:43:11.330
In many cases they may know the organization, which is awesome.
00:43:12.580 --> 00:43:31.414
But if you have good procedures, if you have good, solid, like if you have a solid background, a solid support system, bringing someone in from the outside that has that natural leadership talent that wants to serve others, that's tougher to train.
00:43:31.414 --> 00:43:32.080
Yeah.
00:43:32.080 --> 00:43:35.080
I can typically train people on doing the thing.
00:43:35.080 --> 00:43:37.289
I cannot typically train people as well.
00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:38.539
There's some that just know.
00:43:38.539 --> 00:43:41.080
And I mean, if they're a cultural fit, they're a cultural fit.
00:43:41.080 --> 00:43:41.830
Yeah, but.
00:43:41.830 --> 00:43:46.372
There's some that you just know have this leadership thing that will be a great culture fit.
00:43:46.372 --> 00:43:48.914
And you're like, look, you can learn the industry. You can learn the items.
00:43:48.914 --> 00:43:49.580
Yeah.
00:43:49.580 --> 00:43:52.414
So yeah, that's that's the way that they look at that.
00:43:52.414 --> 00:43:58.289
What's something that you see in a rock star that makes you say right off the bat, they're going to be terrible manager.
00:43:58.289 --> 00:43:59.997
When they're impatient, when others struggle.
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:02.539
Oh that's a good one.
00:44:02.539 --> 00:44:02.872
Yeah.
00:44:02.872 --> 00:44:07.622
So if they believe that doing it themselves faster is always true, they're going to suffocate their team.
00:44:07.955 --> 00:44:11.622
I can do it better myself if it's I can do it better myself.
00:44:11.622 --> 00:44:12.539
And they're not patient.
00:44:12.539 --> 00:44:15.414
When people need a better understanding.
00:44:15.414 --> 00:44:17.497
That's a huge red flag.
00:44:17.497 --> 00:44:20.955
But for you, for me, it really comes down to the core value.
00:44:20.955 --> 00:44:26.789
If you have someone that's a rock star that is willing to look over and be like, hey, let me help you with that role.
00:44:26.789 --> 00:44:27.914
Yeah.
00:44:27.914 --> 00:44:30.539
That that's success is a shared thing is huge.
00:44:30.539 --> 00:44:33.497
I mean, we try and we we put it everywhere in our business.
00:44:33.497 --> 00:44:33.830
Yeah.
00:44:33.830 --> 00:44:40.039
And if they're willing to look across the table and be like, hey, let me help you with this real quick, that is someone that has the potential.
00:44:40.539 --> 00:44:47.497
If it's someone that knows better and knows that they can say five words to the person across the table and they're not going to get better.
00:44:47.872 --> 00:44:50.164
Nope. No. No way.
00:44:50.164 --> 00:44:52.705
What about performance reviews for managers?
00:44:52.705 --> 00:44:54.914
Should they be 100% based on team feedback?
00:44:54.914 --> 00:44:57.914
I want to know your opinion because I have one.
00:44:58.164 --> 00:45:02.622
Performance reviews for managers 100% based on their team's feedback.
00:45:03.164 --> 00:45:04.580
Absolutely not. Good job.
00:45:05.705 --> 00:45:08.164
My guys ding ding ding.
00:45:08.164 --> 00:45:13.955
I like to me, I don't think their feedback should have anything to do with it.
00:45:14.914 --> 00:45:16.914
Now hear me out here. Okay.
00:45:16.914 --> 00:45:18.205
Hear me out.
00:45:18.205 --> 00:45:19.539
You will see it.
00:45:19.539 --> 00:45:20.539
You will.
00:45:20.539 --> 00:45:22.164
It. You don't. You shouldn't. Like.
00:45:22.164 --> 00:45:28.080
This is one of those things you shouldn't really need to go and be like, hey, Bob, good boss.
00:45:28.080 --> 00:45:31.330
No, you shouldn't need to do that to me.
00:45:31.372 --> 00:45:37.497
You should just be able to walk into the room and look at like, hey, are things running. Well?
00:45:37.497 --> 00:45:39.039
Yeah, if they are.
00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:46.455
And people look happy or at least remotely happy, or they don't look like they're ready to stab each other, you're probably doing okay.
00:45:47.414 --> 00:45:48.997
What are your what are your thoughts on that one?
00:45:48.997 --> 00:45:53.330
So I think, you know, team feedback should be part of the input.
00:45:53.872 --> 00:45:58.872
So and this is where I think I, I tend to be a little bit different on 360 feedback.
00:45:58.872 --> 00:46:02.497
I think it's really important for managers to be able to see it, to be able to quantify it.
00:46:02.497 --> 00:46:03.622
Sure.
00:46:03.622 --> 00:46:09.830
And if you're documenting you don't have an issue with this, but ignoring that data can be how bad managers stay too long.
00:46:09.830 --> 00:46:12.872
So it's important that you document to some degree you've got to have a pulse.
00:46:13.789 --> 00:46:15.205
So it can be a component.
00:46:15.205 --> 00:46:26.289
Doesn't have to be the only thing because there are times where if you're dealing with innovation, change and transformation, not everybody's going to like that and they're not going to put it nice things in a performance review. Now.
00:46:26.872 --> 00:46:28.830
You said performance review and document.
00:46:28.830 --> 00:46:33.039
And if you did that, do you know what our next episode is going to be?
00:46:33.080 --> 00:46:35.122
Oh, I do, you do, I do.
00:46:35.122 --> 00:46:46.039
You are becoming the Segway master because next week we are talking about how reviews are a tool, not a burden.
00:46:46.164 --> 00:46:49.039
Because I know so many managers like every year, like I gotta do these.
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:51.539
Tis the season annual. Like this.
00:46:51.539 --> 00:46:54.580
And They get all grumpy about it and they do.
00:46:54.580 --> 00:46:55.539
And there's no reason to be.
00:46:55.539 --> 00:47:01.372
No, they make it sound like we just dumped, like, hey, go ahead and do your taxes manually.
00:47:01.372 --> 00:47:02.539
That's not the case.
00:47:02.539 --> 00:47:04.372
You know, do us a favor.
00:47:04.372 --> 00:47:12.372
Hit all the socials for business ethics podcast, go to the Business Fix podcast.com if you want to check out old episodes.
00:47:12.372 --> 00:47:18.497
If you want Chrissy and I to come speak at one of your events, do a webinar, anything like that, we would love to do that.
00:47:18.497 --> 00:47:20.789
We will.
00:47:18.497 --> 00:47:20.789
We will take our comedy show on the road.
00:47:22.830 --> 00:47:26.789
That being said, like like I talked about, reviews are a tool, not a burden.
00:47:26.789 --> 00:47:29.122
That is next week's topic to us a favor.
00:47:29.122 --> 00:47:31.580
Take care of yourselves that you can take care of someone else too.
00:47:31.580 --> 00:47:34.705
We will see you very, very soon.
00:47:51.872 --> 00:47:52.580
Stay.