Emotions vs. Data: Are Your Leadership Decisions Hurting Your Business?

WEBVTT
00:00:46.306 --> 00:00:51.506
This is the episode that you have all been waiting for.
00:00:51.506 --> 00:00:54.873
This is where Chrissy and I have the grudge match.
00:00:56.706 --> 00:00:58.406
It's emotions versus data.
00:00:58.406 --> 00:01:02.273
Oh my feelings.
00:01:02.273 --> 00:01:11.972
And I mean really, you tend to lean more on data to anyways, but I felt like I definitely no one was going to believe it if they called me the emotional one.
00:01:11.972 --> 00:01:14.105
No. Stay tuned.
00:01:17.173 --> 00:01:18.906
She's the CEO.
00:01:18.906 --> 00:01:21.105
He's the marketing and operations guy.
00:01:21.105 --> 00:01:24.506
If it's broken, you need the business fix.
00:01:26.373 --> 00:01:35.472
So in this week's episode, we're going to talk about we're going to have the death match about who can give a shit less about how someone feels.
00:01:38.573 --> 00:01:40.073
I don't think I'm gonna win this one.
00:01:41.105 --> 00:01:42.772
I don't.
00:01:42.772 --> 00:01:44.939
I have a tiny bit of empathy.
00:01:44.939 --> 00:01:46.840
Yeah, no, I do too.
00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:47.340
It's just.
00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:48.140
It's hidden.
00:01:48.140 --> 00:01:48.640
Yeah.
00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:50.539
Um, it's in there, I guess.
00:01:50.539 --> 00:01:56.306
It's funny, one of the analogies that I've sometimes made is with, um.
00:01:56.306 --> 00:02:00.372
And I say this cautiously, but Mr. Wonderful on Shark Tank.
00:02:00.372 --> 00:02:00.806
Yeah.
00:02:00.806 --> 00:02:05.740
Because when he tells people like, look, stop, he's not gonna work, right?
00:02:05.740 --> 00:02:07.439
He says that out of a place of kindness.
00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:08.539
He absolutely does.
00:02:08.539 --> 00:02:10.605
He does not say that kindly.
00:02:10.605 --> 00:02:13.973
No, but he says it out of a place of kindness and empathy.
00:02:13.973 --> 00:02:17.740
I think sometimes because he's willing to look at people and say, your baby's ugly.
00:02:20.006 --> 00:02:21.173
I'm sorry.
00:02:21.173 --> 00:02:24.939
There's a special place in my heart for Kevin O'Leary because he's honest.
00:02:24.939 --> 00:02:25.340
Yes.
00:02:25.340 --> 00:02:28.740
That's that's that's truly I used to think, boy, this guy is a jerk.
00:02:28.740 --> 00:02:32.406
And like sixteen years later, I'm like, I don't want to say he's my hero.
00:02:32.406 --> 00:02:38.506
But in the same sense, I truly like he is probably my favorite shark because he's the one that says like, look, I'm gonna stop you right now.
00:02:38.506 --> 00:02:40.406
Your business is trash, right?
00:02:40.406 --> 00:02:41.240
You know what?
00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:42.105
Be offended.
00:02:42.105 --> 00:02:43.372
He's not wrong, right?
00:02:43.372 --> 00:02:46.640
He's he's usually one of the first ones to say, what's the numbers?
00:02:46.640 --> 00:02:47.906
And when he's wrong, he'll say it.
00:02:47.906 --> 00:02:48.205
Yep.
00:02:48.205 --> 00:02:51.140
Like he says, I was wrong about the ring doorbell all the time.
00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:51.506
Yeah.
00:02:51.506 --> 00:02:57.040
No, he's he was they all were one hundred percent.
00:02:57.040 --> 00:03:07.140
Um, I, I think this is so funny because no leader will ever admit to this, but most leaders base promotions on who do I like.
00:03:07.140 --> 00:03:13.306
Um, we talked last episode about friends who's going to be the easiest person to work with, right?
00:03:13.306 --> 00:03:18.272
And the firings on based based on who's pushed me too far.
00:03:18.272 --> 00:03:22.806
Um, emotions based decisions create that inconsistency.
00:03:22.806 --> 00:03:29.540
They like if you promote the person who's nice to you but lacks the KPIs, your high performers are going to be like, see ya.
00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:30.140
Yeah.
00:03:30.140 --> 00:03:31.106
I'm out.
00:03:31.106 --> 00:03:38.673
Um, to me, the emotional whiplash, like we want to help people move from emotional whiplash to data driven decisions.
00:03:38.673 --> 00:03:39.240
Yes.
00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:54.873
Um, to me, I'm excited for this because this is something that, believe it or not, like talking about some of the nice leader stuff that we've talked about, talking about some of the other stuff I, I had a big problem with dealing with the emotions of this to now.
00:03:54.873 --> 00:03:57.340
I mean, once again, you never see the pendulum at the bottom.
00:03:57.340 --> 00:03:58.506
The pendulum has swung.
00:03:58.506 --> 00:04:00.973
It's one way or the other far, the other direction.
00:04:00.973 --> 00:04:09.473
Um, but it is making sure that I, I've gone to that, that data driven decisions more so than anything else.
00:04:09.473 --> 00:04:16.473
How does the emotional weight of liking someone like, hey, they're my buddy.
00:04:16.473 --> 00:04:26.372
Oh, how does that emotional weight of liking someone make the leader stay in like, let's say in the coach phase where they're like, you can do it, buddy.
00:04:26.372 --> 00:04:27.173
Keep going.
00:04:27.173 --> 00:04:27.906
Right?
00:04:27.906 --> 00:04:29.105
I got you, buddy.
00:04:29.105 --> 00:04:33.072
No, like, how does that make people stay in the coach phase longer than they should?
00:04:33.072 --> 00:04:38.240
Well, I think when you're building a company, people stop feeling like employees and they start feeling like family.
00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:42.406
Sometimes people because you spend so much time with them, Right.
00:04:43.406 --> 00:04:55.473
And your emotions cloud things like you're building something together, especially when you're in a small organization or you've been through some hard things, you kind of it's really easy to get emotional about people.
00:04:55.473 --> 00:04:58.605
So there's three E's we're going to talk about that kind of help us get out of that.
00:04:58.605 --> 00:04:58.906
Sure.
00:04:58.906 --> 00:05:01.805
We've got empathy, evidence and equity, and it's not.
00:05:01.805 --> 00:05:07.073
And they're going to be explained a little bit differently because I'm sure some of you are like she said, equity, stop right now.
00:05:07.073 --> 00:05:09.073
That's not what I mean.
00:05:09.073 --> 00:05:13.872
Like, just let me get through them and you're gonna see how they work.
00:05:13.872 --> 00:05:19.673
Because when I started pulling these together, I'm like, I really think a couple people are like, I don't like, just take a minute, okay?
00:05:19.673 --> 00:05:21.105
You can have your emotions around it.
00:05:21.105 --> 00:05:23.439
Let's just sit in the car together and let's figure this out.
00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:30.805
So empathy leaders with high empathy often overstay in coaching because they deeply understand the human side.
00:05:30.805 --> 00:05:33.173
And then if they're in that cut phase, they're like, I can't do this.
00:05:33.173 --> 00:05:34.439
This person has a mortgage.
00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:37.240
They have kids, their pets on life support.
00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:38.973
This is it's stressful.
00:05:38.973 --> 00:05:42.206
Like, I can't, I can't put them under that stress.
00:05:42.206 --> 00:05:45.073
I can't hold them accountable because it'll stress them out.
00:05:45.073 --> 00:05:46.906
Their identity is tied to the role.
00:05:46.906 --> 00:05:48.506
I can't let them go.
00:05:48.506 --> 00:05:50.305
Empathy is a beautiful thing.
00:05:50.305 --> 00:06:01.040
I empathy gets us a lot of things as humans, but empathy without boundaries turns into avoidance, and empathy quickly becomes another E, an excuse for why we're not doing the hard thing.
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:02.073
Giving feedback.
00:06:02.073 --> 00:06:02.906
Right?
00:06:02.906 --> 00:06:04.473
Okay, the next one is evidence.
00:06:04.473 --> 00:06:08.605
And this is where leaders have to ask what is actually happening repeatedly.
00:06:08.605 --> 00:06:09.805
Not do I like them?
00:06:09.805 --> 00:06:11.305
And did they try hard?
00:06:11.305 --> 00:06:12.406
We're not.
00:06:12.406 --> 00:06:13.840
It's not a participation trophy.
00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:15.439
It's not a participation trophy.
00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:16.740
This is are you?
00:06:16.740 --> 00:06:18.673
Listen to me, business owners.
00:06:18.673 --> 00:06:22.273
Your business is not worthy of a participation trophy, okay?
00:06:23.706 --> 00:06:27.840
No. All right, so we're not going to ask if we like them.
00:06:27.840 --> 00:06:29.673
We're not going to ask if they tried hard.
00:06:29.673 --> 00:06:31.273
These are the things we're going to ask.
00:06:31.273 --> 00:06:32.673
What patterns are we seeing?
00:06:32.673 --> 00:06:36.805
What behaviors have changed and what has coaching actually improved?
00:06:36.805 --> 00:06:38.139
That last one is the big one.
00:06:38.139 --> 00:06:39.173
That's the huge one.
00:06:39.173 --> 00:06:39.973
That's the big one.
00:06:39.973 --> 00:06:42.473
Because what does coaching actually improved?
00:06:42.473 --> 00:06:46.340
Tells you if they are learning and they are getting better.
00:06:46.340 --> 00:06:53.906
And if the answer is nothing, then we have a clear answer as to the fact that this person may not be the right person in the organization.
00:06:53.906 --> 00:06:55.939
So that's the where's the evidence?
00:06:55.939 --> 00:06:57.040
Where's the data?
00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:58.240
So we've got empathy.
00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.372
So we're not going to get hijacked emotionally.
00:07:00.372 --> 00:07:06.673
The fact that this person, they could be the most wonderful person on the planet doesn't mean that they need to fit in your business, right?
00:07:06.673 --> 00:07:08.173
Because we're going to have evidence about it.
00:07:08.173 --> 00:07:10.773
Not if we like them, but are they actually doing a good job?
00:07:10.773 --> 00:07:14.540
And can they be coached into doing a good job?
00:07:14.540 --> 00:07:15.906
And then there's equity.
00:07:15.906 --> 00:07:29.573
And I think this is the hardest question because it's is my empathy for one person becoming unfair to everyone else because equity is not about does this person have the right access?
00:07:29.573 --> 00:07:31.040
Did I provide the right tools?
00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:38.540
No, no no no no. This is about am I harming my business and everyone else because I am trying to take care of this person, right?
00:07:38.540 --> 00:07:40.773
Because it's amazing.
00:07:40.773 --> 00:07:41.340
No go.
00:07:41.340 --> 00:07:41.639
Yeah.
00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:47.540
Every month, a low performer stays high, performers absorb more, resentment grows and standards drift.
00:07:47.540 --> 00:07:52.340
And eventually the team's going to realize that feelings matter more than accountability.
00:07:52.340 --> 00:07:53.805
Empathy should inform leadership.
00:07:53.805 --> 00:07:55.340
It shouldn't override reality.
00:07:55.340 --> 00:08:06.173
And equity in this equation is about how this helps the organization as a whole, not about how your feelings are going to prevent everybody from from being able to move forward.
00:08:06.173 --> 00:08:13.240
I it's, it's funny because I want to go back to something here, like you're talking about the equity on that and you say high performers absorb more.
00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:18.540
One of the things that I want to make clear is neither one of us believe that everyone on the team is going to perform at the same level.
00:08:18.540 --> 00:08:21.473
Oh gosh, no, there's a mean and a median.
00:08:21.473 --> 00:08:22.273
Correct.
00:08:22.273 --> 00:08:36.439
And to me, it's making sure that the the high performance realize that they're high performers, low performers, realize that they're low performers and everyone realizes where their spot is in the team and that there's balance to things.
00:08:36.439 --> 00:08:38.505
Yes, that is the biggest piece to it.
00:08:38.505 --> 00:08:42.439
We're not encouraging you to to say everyone has to be a high performer.
00:08:42.439 --> 00:08:44.105
No, because we've talked about this.
00:08:44.105 --> 00:08:48.240
No definition of high performers in this case are people that are meeting the standard of the job.
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:48.605
Yep.
00:08:48.605 --> 00:08:58.273
Because the person that you're looking at going, I can't lose them because they're just a person with they've got a mortgage and they've got kids and they've got a pet and they've got.
00:08:58.273 --> 00:09:01.039
I don't want to stress them out by making them do all these hard things.
00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:02.872
That person is not meeting the standard.
00:09:02.872 --> 00:09:12.405
So everybody else that is meeting the standard now has to absorb more because you're not willing to let that person go, or you're not willing to coach that person one hundred percent, one hundred percent.
00:09:12.405 --> 00:09:21.940
When it comes to promotions, like how does that unconscious bias or the emotional like that personal affinity destroy?
00:09:21.940 --> 00:09:30.206
And I mean, I say, I say that emphasis, like, yeah, the psychological safety of the rest of that was a nuclear explosion, by the way.
00:09:30.206 --> 00:09:31.206
I know I heard it.
00:09:31.206 --> 00:09:36.039
How does it how does it, how does it destroy that psychological safety for everyone else.
00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:42.240
Oh, and this happens constantly, especially in founder led businesses, because leaders are going to promote the person they relate to.
00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:45.773
Yes, they're going to promote the person that makes them feel comfortable.
00:09:45.773 --> 00:09:46.440
Yep.
00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:47.940
And the one that gets you.
00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:49.340
That's my favorite.
00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:50.306
Why are you promoting them?
00:09:50.306 --> 00:09:51.373
Well, they just get me.
00:09:52.505 --> 00:09:53.639
This is not dating.
00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:54.740
They get you up McDonald's.
00:09:54.740 --> 00:09:55.940
Exactly.
00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:56.773
Exactly.
00:09:56.773 --> 00:10:01.605
And that's what's hard because they're doing that instead of the person who actually fills the organizational gap.
00:10:01.605 --> 00:10:02.406
Yes.
00:10:02.406 --> 00:10:11.940
Heaven forbid we actually hire the person or promote the person who is qualified and actually doing the job because we are naturally going to connect.
00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:13.340
I know.
00:10:13.340 --> 00:10:14.605
It's so true.
00:10:14.605 --> 00:10:16.773
I just said it so fast.
00:10:16.773 --> 00:10:18.840
I dealt with this with a client.
00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:19.539
I have two.
00:10:19.539 --> 00:10:21.706
It was a this is a podcast client.
00:10:21.706 --> 00:10:26.340
This is constant visionary guy kept hiring other visionaries and then wondered why stuff didn't get done.
00:10:26.340 --> 00:10:27.173
Exactly.
00:10:27.173 --> 00:10:28.639
He's like, oh, we get along great.
00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:29.639
So many great ideas.
00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:33.873
They can't execute on crap, but they've got a ton of good ideas.
00:10:33.873 --> 00:10:36.072
Oh, and here's the thing.
00:10:36.072 --> 00:10:39.173
We naturally are going to connect with familiarity.
00:10:39.173 --> 00:10:39.440
Yes.
00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:39.639
Right.
00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:40.940
That's human.
00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:41.873
We're going to be great.
00:10:41.873 --> 00:10:45.773
We're going to gravitate towards people that are similar to us.
00:10:45.773 --> 00:10:46.440
But here's the thing.
00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.673
I don't need a bunch of me's in my business, right?
00:10:49.673 --> 00:10:50.740
Oh, could you imagine?
00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:51.740
No, I cannot.
00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:53.505
I am already annoyed with myself this week.
00:10:53.505 --> 00:10:55.572
I cannot imagine what it would be like.
00:10:55.572 --> 00:10:56.406
I can't.
00:10:57.673 --> 00:10:58.440
We got to think about it.
00:10:58.440 --> 00:10:59.373
Because here's the thing.
00:10:59.373 --> 00:11:03.806
Leadership requires us to ask what does the business actually need next?
00:11:03.806 --> 00:11:04.206
Yes.
00:11:04.206 --> 00:11:05.406
Not another version of me.
00:11:05.406 --> 00:11:06.505
God help them all.
00:11:06.505 --> 00:11:08.072
Not another friend.
00:11:08.072 --> 00:11:10.005
Not another loyal soldier.
00:11:10.005 --> 00:11:12.240
But actually, what are the things that we need?
00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:13.572
A missing skill set.
00:11:13.572 --> 00:11:15.005
Is there something we need?
00:11:15.005 --> 00:11:17.039
Emotional maturity in our organization?
00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:18.406
Do we need strategic thinking?
00:11:18.406 --> 00:11:20.240
Do we need operational discipline?
00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:21.505
And this is where always yes.
00:11:21.505 --> 00:11:23.740
Yes, the answer is yes, we do.
00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:25.173
Yes.
00:11:25.173 --> 00:11:30.940
But this is also where psychological safety gets damaged because the team watches promotions very closely.
00:11:30.940 --> 00:11:41.206
And so if promotions feel political or inconsistent, trust drops, effort drops, and eventually people are going to stop believing that performance matters, right?
00:11:41.206 --> 00:11:42.273
Because here's the thing.
00:11:42.273 --> 00:11:46.139
Your strongest people are not often going to complain loudly.
00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:46.539
Nope.
00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:50.539
They just stop trying as hard because then they realize the game isn't actually fair.
00:11:50.539 --> 00:11:58.906
You have to promote people that are, I mean, that are qualified and are supposed to be moving forward, not just because you like them.
00:11:58.906 --> 00:12:03.605
Or maybe they play bocce or maybe they like, well, they ride motorcycles too.
00:12:03.605 --> 00:12:06.740
And like, you know, I just, I feel I feel a connection.
00:12:06.740 --> 00:12:08.340
No, that's not what this is about.
00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:12.105
Promotions teach the culture what leadership actually values.
00:12:12.105 --> 00:12:14.539
It's funny, we believe we talked about this before.
00:12:14.539 --> 00:12:27.605
One of my first jobs, when I saw someone who just no skills whatsoever, but was friends with someone else in the department, they got the job that I like really was it was the perfect fit for me.
00:12:27.605 --> 00:12:28.072
Yeah.
00:12:28.072 --> 00:12:30.273
When I saw that, I was just like, I'm out.
00:12:30.273 --> 00:12:31.605
See you Bye.
00:12:31.605 --> 00:12:32.840
And that person wasn't qualified.
00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:34.806
And its definition of toxic culture.
00:12:34.806 --> 00:12:35.740
Yep.
00:12:35.740 --> 00:12:41.940
Um, there's a when you like, let's face this.
00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:44.406
When you've got this empathy for someone.
00:12:44.406 --> 00:12:44.806
Yeah.
00:12:44.806 --> 00:12:50.105
The mortgage, the things of that nature, it's going to like you realize that you do have to get rid of them.
00:12:50.105 --> 00:12:50.840
Yes.
00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.340
There's still an emotional cost to that.
00:12:53.340 --> 00:12:55.840
How do you like, hold space for that?
00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:59.206
How do you like how do you still execute?
00:12:59.206 --> 00:13:04.706
But make sure that you I mean, feel the decision still.
00:13:04.706 --> 00:13:05.306
Exactly.
00:13:05.306 --> 00:13:08.639
Well, good leaders should always feel the weight of these decisions.
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.206
I agree, there should always be some.
00:13:10.206 --> 00:13:15.240
I mean, it should give you pause when you're you're moving someone out of your organization.
00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:17.240
Now, granted, you may be giving them another opportunity.
00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.539
Maybe the greatest opportunity that they have is to find another job because they're not fitting in yours.
00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:23.005
But here's what I'll say.
00:13:23.005 --> 00:13:27.373
If firing or demoting someone never bothers you, that's a different problem.
00:13:27.373 --> 00:13:30.005
But if if it does bother you, congratulations.
00:13:30.005 --> 00:13:32.072
You're human and that's normal.
00:13:32.072 --> 00:13:34.105
So here's what I will say.
00:13:34.105 --> 00:13:36.440
We're going to acknowledge the human impact.
00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.740
We are going to acknowledge that dealing with this situation.
00:13:39.740 --> 00:13:40.972
There is stress, there is fear.
00:13:40.972 --> 00:13:45.840
There is disappointment probably on your end as well as the end of the other person.
00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.406
But you do not need to be robotic in this.
00:13:48.406 --> 00:13:49.373
All right?
00:13:49.373 --> 00:13:54.340
You also don't let emotion erase the reality of where things are.
00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:55.472
You cannot get hijacked.
00:13:55.472 --> 00:14:04.039
So at clarity, this is why we lean so heavily into documentation, documented coaching, so that you cannot get emotionally hijacked.
00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.072
Because here's again, here's the data.
00:14:06.072 --> 00:14:06.873
Here's the paper trail.
00:14:06.873 --> 00:14:09.740
Yes, here the clear expectations because that's the other.
00:14:09.740 --> 00:14:11.773
Well, did I set them up for success?
00:14:11.773 --> 00:14:15.505
Maybe you didn't, but if you didn't, let's make sure that we we have it documented.
00:14:15.505 --> 00:14:24.173
But then let's put some clear expectations in place either now and put them on a performance improvement plan or let's, let's exit because we know that it's not going to work.
00:14:24.173 --> 00:14:26.406
And the next person that comes in has to have clear expectations.
00:14:26.406 --> 00:14:28.639
The other part is consistent feedback, right?
00:14:28.639 --> 00:15:31.560
Because by the time the final decision happens, it should never feel random.
00:15:31.560 --> 00:15:34.225
I don't know how many times we've said termination should never be a surprise.
00:15:34.225 --> 00:15:34.725
Nope.
00:15:34.725 --> 00:15:35.225
They know.
00:15:35.225 --> 00:15:35.893
Yes.
00:15:35.893 --> 00:15:37.060
And leaders have to remember.
00:15:37.060 --> 00:15:46.493
Keeping someone in a role where they're failing is not compassionate because it's I mean, a lot of times it's delaying the person from finding the environment where they can succeed.
00:15:46.493 --> 00:15:50.725
So stop being the bottleneck to them being able to be successful in their future.
00:15:50.725 --> 00:16:03.460
And I think that's really why what we talked about in the episode about coach, correct or cut that framework matters so much because it allows that employee to see where they are, what needs to change, and then that final decision, it becomes understandable.
00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:09.426
It doesn't become it's emotional, but it's explainable and it's fair.
00:16:09.426 --> 00:16:12.960
I mean, again, the kindest thing is not always keeping someone.
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.725
Sometimes it's being honest sooner.
00:16:15.725 --> 00:16:16.493
Yeah.
00:16:16.493 --> 00:16:19.960
It's funny, I like how you put that because it doesn't remove all emotion from it.
00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.692
It just makes sure you don't add emotion to it.
00:16:22.692 --> 00:16:24.360
No. And when you let someone like.
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:31.326
There are times where I've had a situation where people had to let someone go and I'm like, okay, that was hard.
00:16:31.326 --> 00:16:33.526
Maybe like, why don't you go home?
00:16:33.526 --> 00:16:35.225
Why don't you go like you want to go?
00:16:35.225 --> 00:16:36.660
Like, let's go do something else.
00:16:36.660 --> 00:16:40.259
Like you don't feel like I'm done and you move on to the next thing.
00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:41.593
Like you're allowed.
00:16:41.593 --> 00:16:42.360
Let's look at the numbers.
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:42.993
Look at the numbers.
00:16:42.993 --> 00:16:43.593
Let's go do something.
00:16:43.593 --> 00:16:44.725
Let's just hire another person.
00:16:44.725 --> 00:16:48.560
Like, give yourself a little bit of moment to like, gather yourself.
00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:50.126
It's okay if you're like, you know, this was hard.
00:16:50.126 --> 00:16:50.993
I think I'm gonna go home.
00:16:50.993 --> 00:16:52.060
I think I'm gonna go take a nap.
00:16:52.060 --> 00:16:52.793
I think I'm gonna go.
00:16:52.793 --> 00:16:56.593
Like that's, I mean, the concept of, you know, people are like, oh, self-care.
00:16:56.593 --> 00:17:06.393
Like there's like taking care of your own emotional well-being when you're dealing with some of these things is really important because you're, you're handling as a business owner, you're handling a lot of stress as a manager, you're handling a lot of stress.
00:17:06.393 --> 00:17:13.593
And this is for this not to be a stressful situation, to let someone go again, that's a different problem.
00:17:13.593 --> 00:17:13.759
Yeah.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:14.425
One hundred.
00:17:14.425 --> 00:17:22.960
I, I've always said I have never been upset by I've never been I've never felt bad about letting someone go.
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:24.893
That doesn't mean it wasn't emotional.
00:17:24.893 --> 00:17:25.625
Yeah.
00:17:25.625 --> 00:17:27.059
Um, it still sucks.
00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:32.792
And you still feel bad for the person, but I. I have always been able to do it in a way where I'm like.
00:17:32.792 --> 00:17:34.725
We've documented things.
00:17:34.725 --> 00:17:40.192
So when I've had to let them go, I can kind of say, look, this was their decision.
00:17:40.192 --> 00:17:42.192
Um, we've written this out.
00:17:42.192 --> 00:17:43.225
They've been given choices.
00:17:43.225 --> 00:17:44.960
They've been given options.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.192
I'm not letting them go.
00:17:47.192 --> 00:17:50.559
They've kind of made that decision on their own and it sucks.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:50.893
It does.
00:17:50.893 --> 00:17:51.559
And we'll just.
00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:56.326
And the best thing to do is to I mean, let's let's move through this quickly, efficiently.
00:17:56.326 --> 00:17:56.625
Yeah.
00:17:56.625 --> 00:17:57.692
It's not going to be a debate.
00:17:57.692 --> 00:17:58.826
It's not going to be yeah.
00:17:58.826 --> 00:17:59.593
Get through it quickly.
00:17:59.593 --> 00:18:01.292
So that way I can get back to accounting.
00:18:01.292 --> 00:18:01.725
Okay.
00:18:01.725 --> 00:18:02.326
Sure.
00:18:03.593 --> 00:18:07.326
No, that's a different episode.
00:18:07.326 --> 00:18:09.160
So let's talk about operations.
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:09.559
Josh.
00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:09.960
Sure.
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.992
I know you can be creepy calm.
00:18:11.992 --> 00:18:14.893
No, you do have emotions.
00:18:14.893 --> 00:18:16.259
I have seen them occasionally.
00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:17.292
Yeah.
00:18:17.292 --> 00:18:22.792
But I would say, you know, what steps can someone take to make sure that the data makes the decision.
00:18:22.792 --> 00:18:25.125
Because not everybody can be creepy calm.
00:18:25.125 --> 00:18:28.492
No, no. And to me, it's taking that step back.
00:18:28.492 --> 00:18:35.093
Like it's tough when you're standing with someone who's going to be emotional, to not be emotional yourself, especially when you don't.
00:18:35.093 --> 00:18:35.393
Yeah.
00:18:35.393 --> 00:18:38.192
You pass the Kleenex right here, right here.
00:18:38.192 --> 00:18:39.960
Here's the Kleenex crier.
00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:40.792
Right, right.
00:18:40.792 --> 00:18:42.460
Well, and keep one for me.
00:18:42.460 --> 00:18:48.925
Um, the other thing that I look at with it too, is what's tough is making sure that, like, people have a tendency to escalate each other.
00:18:48.925 --> 00:18:49.893
Um, oh yeah.
00:18:49.893 --> 00:18:56.925
I talk about like, if I like when I walk with my dog, if all of a sudden I get nervous about something, he's like, dude, what's what's up?
00:18:56.925 --> 00:18:57.593
He's nervous too.
00:18:57.593 --> 00:19:00.660
Now it's that escalation people play.
00:19:00.660 --> 00:19:03.160
If I'm super happy about something, he's like, hey, this is cool.
00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:04.125
We're going for a walk.
00:19:04.125 --> 00:19:04.692
You know what I mean?
00:19:04.692 --> 00:19:05.226
It's the same thing.
00:19:05.226 --> 00:19:11.793
So to me, one of the things that I say is you have to have this dashboard for this, and it's looking at patterns over promises.
00:19:11.793 --> 00:19:13.093
Look at ninety day trends.
00:19:13.093 --> 00:19:23.460
Once we've you've heard me say this ad nauseam, once is not a pattern before you promote someone because they did one great thing Or fire someone because they did one bad thing unless it was really, really, really bad.
00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:26.593
Like if they copied their naked butt on the copier or something like that.
00:19:26.593 --> 00:19:27.460
Yeah, we just let them go.
00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:27.992
Don't do that.
00:19:27.992 --> 00:19:28.360
Right.
00:19:28.360 --> 00:19:31.125
Verify, verify the frequency.
00:19:31.125 --> 00:19:32.960
One data point is an outlier.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:34.526
Three is a trend.
00:19:34.526 --> 00:19:36.925
Ten is a change.
00:19:36.925 --> 00:19:37.559
That's it.
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:38.860
Ten is an issue.
00:19:38.860 --> 00:19:46.660
Three is something that you can like look at really hard and say, okay, yes, but like one data point that's outside is not, is not it?
00:19:46.660 --> 00:19:50.593
You need established pattern over time to make a binary decision.
00:19:50.593 --> 00:19:59.192
Um, when you look at that ninety day trend, don't look at the ten minute apology or the one time heroic save.
00:19:59.192 --> 00:20:01.425
Well, they did bail us out this one time.
00:20:01.425 --> 00:20:04.026
No, that's not it.
00:20:04.026 --> 00:20:08.326
The other thing that I see is that so many owners do incorrectly is they do.
00:20:08.326 --> 00:20:10.460
The carrot trap is what I like to call it.
00:20:10.460 --> 00:20:15.192
Um, I dangled a carrot in front of their face and they moved in response.
00:20:15.192 --> 00:20:20.793
Um, if an employee only responds when there's a specific reward or threat.
00:20:20.793 --> 00:20:24.960
That's not a promotion, that's not a someone a keep pattern.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:29.026
It's they're making temporary efforts just for the status quo or for the carrot.
00:20:29.026 --> 00:20:29.492
Yeah.
00:20:29.492 --> 00:20:30.425
They're not.
00:20:30.425 --> 00:20:33.660
You want a shift in baseline behavior?
00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:37.460
Not I gave them the stick and they did the thing.
00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:39.625
No. And you're hiring for the baseline, right?
00:20:39.625 --> 00:20:40.960
You're trying to do that?
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:41.660
Yeah.
00:20:41.660 --> 00:20:45.992
Um, if you're relying on the carrots of the sticks, it's your it's manipulative.
00:20:45.992 --> 00:20:47.492
That's all there is to it.
00:20:47.492 --> 00:20:48.893
It's a toxic environment.
00:20:48.893 --> 00:20:52.093
Efforts rented instead of owned.
00:20:52.093 --> 00:20:55.860
Um, I really feel like you're just renting effort by that point.
00:20:55.860 --> 00:20:56.960
It's exhausting.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:02.259
Oh, the carrot trap is absolutely exhausting because you get on the hamster wheel of performance for your people.
00:21:02.259 --> 00:21:02.593
Yeah.
00:21:02.593 --> 00:21:08.259
No. And then the problem is, is you give them a carrot and then the next time like, well, hey, I'm not going to do anything until I get two carrots.
00:21:08.259 --> 00:21:09.093
Exactly.
00:21:09.093 --> 00:21:11.893
Uh, that is not helpful.
00:21:11.893 --> 00:21:13.425
No, it's definitely not.
00:21:13.425 --> 00:21:16.026
But I've seen it and I've been a part of it too.
00:21:16.026 --> 00:21:19.925
It's just like, hey, let's, we'll just, I'll keep motivating them.
00:21:19.925 --> 00:21:20.192
Right?
00:21:20.192 --> 00:21:20.492
Right.
00:21:20.492 --> 00:21:20.759
Right.
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:22.860
And it works for two days.
00:21:22.860 --> 00:21:29.726
Um, it's, it's like when we, one of the first things that we talked about was like yearly reviews and how they're terrible because they motivate someone.
00:21:29.726 --> 00:21:30.393
I got my raise.
00:21:30.393 --> 00:21:31.860
I'm going to work for three days.
00:21:31.860 --> 00:21:32.660
Mhm.
00:21:32.660 --> 00:21:38.593
The other three hundred and sixty two days of the year, they're just gonna, they're gonna suck again because it's the carrot trap.
00:21:38.593 --> 00:21:40.726
Well, you want to grow a brilliant jerk?
00:21:40.726 --> 00:21:41.192
Yeah.
00:21:41.192 --> 00:21:42.125
Live the carrot trap.
00:21:42.125 --> 00:21:42.593
Yeah.
00:21:42.593 --> 00:21:44.125
Oh, yeah.
00:21:44.125 --> 00:21:47.192
Um, something else we look at with promotions.
00:21:47.192 --> 00:21:50.460
This is where you have to pull emotions out of it and look at the data.
00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:52.026
Once again, you talk to this.
00:21:52.026 --> 00:21:54.925
It's called filling the gap instead of mirroring the boss.
00:21:54.925 --> 00:21:59.925
Um, too many people that promote the person that is exactly like them because hey, that's comfortable.
00:21:59.925 --> 00:22:03.093
Um, I don't need another me.
00:22:03.093 --> 00:22:07.093
Um, we would have fistfights in the office if I had another me in the office.
00:22:07.093 --> 00:22:08.093
Probably.
00:22:08.093 --> 00:22:09.125
I would love to see that.
00:22:09.125 --> 00:22:13.960
Uh, I don't ever want to see another Chrissy and.
00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:22.625
Well, then the funny thing is, is I remember the episode of The Office where, where Dwight is talking about how he would defend, and then he ends up beating himself up basically under Jim's.
00:22:22.625 --> 00:22:24.192
Yeah, that's what that would be.
00:22:24.192 --> 00:22:30.360
Um, to me, when you're looking at promotion, you have to look at like, what is the machine missing?
00:22:30.360 --> 00:22:32.860
What is going to make this better?
00:22:32.860 --> 00:22:36.460
Um, I'm going to make an automotive example here.
00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:44.125
Like if you're building a race car, you don't say, hey, our car's got a really great motor and it's really fast.
00:22:44.125 --> 00:22:46.125
So we're going to make it really faster.
00:22:46.125 --> 00:22:49.860
No, you say I we've got a great race car and it's really fast.
00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:52.360
We should probably put better tires on it.
00:22:52.360 --> 00:22:54.526
So that way it goes around corners better.
00:22:54.526 --> 00:22:54.860
What.
00:22:54.860 --> 00:22:55.660
Like it?
00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:55.925
Yeah.
00:22:55.925 --> 00:23:00.460
If it handles like a shopping cart but has an awesome motor.
00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:03.192
Don't think I need more motor.
00:23:03.192 --> 00:23:05.559
Think I need to fix how it handles.
00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:07.160
Like a shopping cart.
00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.925
Um, to me, if it's strategy, do we need someone to build a roadmap?
00:23:10.925 --> 00:23:11.460
The direction.
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:15.826
Do we need someone to keep the train on the tracks sometimes.
00:23:15.826 --> 00:23:19.360
I mean, I know both of us were like, oh, hey, look over here.
00:23:19.360 --> 00:23:20.026
Yeah.
00:23:20.026 --> 00:23:23.059
Our businesses need the tracks.
00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:24.125
We're like, oh, over here.
00:23:24.125 --> 00:23:25.259
Look at the thing that we can do.
00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:26.160
The shiny weeds.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:27.492
Um. You're right.
00:23:27.492 --> 00:23:28.625
Do we need the doer?
00:23:28.625 --> 00:23:31.526
Do we just need the person that's just going to be high velocity output?
00:23:31.526 --> 00:23:32.125
Yeah.
00:23:32.125 --> 00:23:39.559
Um, the other thing that I want to look at too is when you're looking at emotions versus data, there is a difference between capacity and velocity when it comes to this.
00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:46.826
There is a rate at which people in ingest logic and turn it into a repeatable result.
00:23:46.826 --> 00:23:51.160
High velocity means they get it quickly so they can reach one hundred percent mastery.
00:23:51.160 --> 00:24:00.625
Um, the, the speed is what they is, how they, how they do it over time.
00:24:00.625 --> 00:24:07.093
Um, you may be able to get to a level quickly, but the speed is how you're going to do it over time for that.
00:24:07.093 --> 00:24:13.593
Um, with that, the other thing that I want to go go to too is the, like, we have to go back to that coach.
00:24:13.593 --> 00:24:14.026
Correct.
00:24:14.026 --> 00:24:15.860
And cut piece.
00:24:15.860 --> 00:24:22.393
Um, they may have a high velocity there, learning and grasping the logic, but they've got a low capacity.
00:24:22.393 --> 00:24:23.925
Well, we've talked about that.
00:24:23.925 --> 00:24:35.293
That's the coach piece of that where once again you're looking at these two things and you're pulling you're looking at the data behind them, not the emotions behind it.
00:24:35.293 --> 00:24:45.293
And the reason why I bring up the coach correct and cut piece is because they those are two things where once again, there's data that can quantify that.
00:24:45.293 --> 00:24:49.893
If you you can look at the other things well, like other people really like them.
00:24:50.893 --> 00:24:53.793
Um, that that's an emotional thing.
00:24:53.793 --> 00:24:57.093
That's not a, that's not a reason to keep people around.
00:24:57.093 --> 00:25:01.026
That's not a people to keep, not a reason to keep people hanging on.
00:25:01.026 --> 00:25:02.793
No, that's what mascots are for.
00:25:05.692 --> 00:25:07.492
Sorry, was that too direct?
00:25:07.492 --> 00:25:08.793
Do you guys have a mascot?
00:25:08.793 --> 00:25:09.393
We do.
00:25:09.393 --> 00:25:10.660
They're furry.
00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:10.893
Yeah.
00:25:10.893 --> 00:25:11.326
We see.
00:25:11.326 --> 00:25:12.026
Steve and Rocco.
00:25:12.026 --> 00:25:12.425
Yeah.
00:25:12.425 --> 00:25:13.925
Oh, it's the dogs of the mascot.
00:25:13.925 --> 00:25:14.226
They're the.
00:25:14.226 --> 00:25:15.026
Oh, yeah.
00:25:15.026 --> 00:25:18.192
Our mascot is Siva, and Rocco is the mascot.
00:25:18.192 --> 00:25:19.593
I absolutely love this.
00:25:19.593 --> 00:25:21.625
Yes, but that's what mascots are for.
00:25:21.625 --> 00:25:23.360
I absolutely love this.
00:25:23.360 --> 00:25:24.460
Um, yeah.
00:25:24.460 --> 00:25:26.059
We do not have a mascot.
00:25:26.059 --> 00:25:29.726
Um, no, I believe that's too emotional for my business.
00:25:29.726 --> 00:25:48.425
Um, the other thing that I want to go to though, too, is when, when you're looking at the correct thing, if the once again, when an employee has high capacity, so they do the volume, but they're lower stalling velocity, meaning they are ignoring the new logic or s a s o s, then they are choosing speed over the system.
00:25:48.425 --> 00:25:52.960
So we've got to we've got to once again, we've got to look at that to see what we're going to do with them.
00:25:54.259 --> 00:26:04.125
Um, the, the cut thing that we've got to come to with this is it's always tough to figure out, like, how do we pull the emotions out of the cut?
00:26:04.125 --> 00:26:08.660
Now you spoke to very well, like, hey, look, this is still an emotional thing always.
00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:22.460
But to me, The documentation, the data has to come back to show that, look, this person does not have a fit in our in our organization.
00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:26.259
Yeah, it may not like maybe the org chart changed.
00:26:26.259 --> 00:26:28.960
Maybe the mission and vision has changed.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:35.660
Maybe it's just this is the wrong person for the culture or the jobs have changed one hundred percent.
00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:37.059
I mean, you can't I'm sorry.
00:26:37.059 --> 00:26:41.026
I don't know anybody that still has a file clerk unless you're in government.
00:26:41.026 --> 00:26:43.492
Like they're just they don't that job doesn't exist anymore.
00:26:43.492 --> 00:26:44.259
You don't have those.
00:26:44.259 --> 00:26:45.826
No. Do you really?
00:26:45.826 --> 00:26:48.960
I know, it's amazing.
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:53.759
I think that's the other part of it is you have to I mean, your business is going to evolve.
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:55.925
The seats are going to evolve.
00:26:55.925 --> 00:26:57.460
Yeah, one hundred percent.
00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:02.860
The one thing that I want to address is sometimes there are low data environments.
00:27:02.860 --> 00:27:06.692
Uh, there are, there are those things that aren't quantifiable.
00:27:06.692 --> 00:27:13.925
In some cases, they do not necessarily have a direct KPI with them.
00:27:13.925 --> 00:27:17.726
One of the things that I'm going to equate that to is marketing.
00:27:17.726 --> 00:27:24.759
You can't always say we did X and it gave us exactly Y. Fair.
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:28.026
So how do you how do you look at those types of things?
00:27:28.026 --> 00:27:38.860
So to me, one of the things that I look at when it comes to stuff like this is when it comes to like the employee, can they explain why they do what they do and how they do it?
00:27:38.860 --> 00:27:45.793
And to me, like, you know how you remove the emotions from that, does this fit the core values?
00:27:45.793 --> 00:27:48.793
Does this fit our mission?
00:27:48.793 --> 00:27:51.192
Does this fit with what we do?
00:27:52.293 --> 00:28:00.759
That's the way that once again, we're removing the we're, we're trying to remove the emotions from like, what do we do with this person?
00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:08.593
Or what do we, where do we put this person and making this data because, and it sucks to feel like you're making someone quantify their existence.
00:28:08.593 --> 00:28:14.059
You don't be like, hey, tell me and I'm gonna, I'm going to be one of the bobs here.
00:28:14.059 --> 00:28:16.960
So tell me what it is you do here at Initech.
00:28:18.726 --> 00:28:19.360
Uh huh.
00:28:21.692 --> 00:28:23.992
Can I, I have, I have a thought, too.
00:28:23.992 --> 00:28:24.393
Yes.
00:28:24.393 --> 00:28:33.726
Um, do you want to know when you know someone has no idea how they fit in their organization, or how their manager has no idea how that person fits in the organization?
00:28:33.726 --> 00:28:34.660
I'd love to hear this.
00:28:34.660 --> 00:28:37.860
When their response is immediately, they're good for morale.
00:28:37.860 --> 00:28:41.625
Oh, one first thing you say is they're good for morale.
00:28:41.625 --> 00:28:53.625
I challenge you to to figure out what they're doing because yeah, there's some really people that are great for the energy in your office, but if that's the only thing they're great for, why are they there?
00:28:53.625 --> 00:28:57.526
Oh, I go to Tom Sekowski.
00:28:57.526 --> 00:28:59.425
I'm good with people.
00:28:59.425 --> 00:29:00.492
Can't you tell?
00:29:00.492 --> 00:29:01.992
I'm good with people.
00:29:01.992 --> 00:29:02.692
No you're not.
00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:05.360
Yes.
00:29:05.360 --> 00:29:07.526
Here's the one that's tough to do.
00:29:07.526 --> 00:29:08.293
Mhm.
00:29:08.293 --> 00:29:11.860
Um, I want you if you're driving, don't do this.
00:29:11.860 --> 00:29:15.360
But maybe if you're just driving, pull the sun visor down.
00:29:15.360 --> 00:29:18.259
Um, look in the mirror.
00:29:18.259 --> 00:29:18.759
Yeah.
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:20.226
Uh, you gotta look at yourself.
00:29:20.226 --> 00:29:24.425
Can you explain why you feel a certain way about this person?
00:29:24.425 --> 00:29:27.425
And then quant, like, find ways to quantify that.
00:29:27.425 --> 00:29:28.093
Yeah.
00:29:28.093 --> 00:29:28.893
With.
00:29:28.893 --> 00:29:30.326
Now, here's the catch.
00:29:30.326 --> 00:29:32.759
Consistent examples.
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:33.492
Mhm.
00:29:33.492 --> 00:29:36.660
Um, the good for morale.
00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:45.826
Like you got to look at that and be like, no, this is one, you have to be able to tie it back to something that's more quantifiable than morale.
00:29:45.826 --> 00:29:46.026
Yeah.
00:29:46.026 --> 00:29:47.460
It goes back to your empathy piece.
00:29:47.460 --> 00:29:49.026
That's the oh, they're good.
00:29:49.026 --> 00:29:50.125
Correct.
00:29:50.125 --> 00:29:51.160
We get along.
00:29:51.160 --> 00:30:02.425
If you can't protect the why using specific data points or some recurring behaviors, you're making an emotional decision, not an operational one.
00:30:39.755 --> 00:30:40.655
Yeah.
00:30:40.655 --> 00:30:47.255
Um, the easiest things that I always say to is operational reliability and repeatability.
00:30:47.255 --> 00:30:53.056
If if they have those things, there's probably a space for them in your organization.
00:30:53.056 --> 00:30:55.289
If they may not be in the right space.
00:30:55.289 --> 00:30:57.455
Yeah, but there's probably a space.
00:30:57.455 --> 00:31:07.123
And that's once again, it's removing that emotion of like, hey, I've, we've really got to find a place to keep this person because they're nice.
00:31:07.123 --> 00:31:07.655
Yeah.
00:31:07.655 --> 00:31:14.789
No, no, no, no. Are they like, do they even if it's not the right spot for them, are they reliably doing the thing on time?
00:31:14.789 --> 00:31:17.455
Like, are they delivering things consistently?
00:31:17.455 --> 00:31:18.623
Yeah.
00:31:18.623 --> 00:31:19.789
Um, the boss's mood.
00:31:19.789 --> 00:31:22.022
We've talked about that once again.
00:31:22.022 --> 00:31:23.556
Take that fifteen second pause.
00:31:23.556 --> 00:31:26.190
Look at performance versus personality.
00:31:26.190 --> 00:31:30.490
Directness is the only kindness.
00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:33.123
Now once again, there are varying levels of directness.
00:31:33.123 --> 00:31:37.022
And I have occasionally been accused of a lack of tact.
00:31:37.022 --> 00:31:37.855
Mhm.
00:31:37.855 --> 00:31:39.089
I'll own that.
00:31:39.089 --> 00:31:40.389
Uh, yeah.
00:31:40.389 --> 00:31:47.322
Chris, he's just nodding over here like tact and truth need to be programming partners, correct?
00:31:47.322 --> 00:31:48.623
One hundred percent.
00:31:48.623 --> 00:31:55.123
Um, but to me, it's once again, it's making sure that you are looking things directly, you are adjusting, looking at things with KPIs.
00:31:55.123 --> 00:32:07.855
And if you don't have a justifiable KPI, you're going back to that, that that low data environment items and putting those, plugging those in and doing those in a vacuum as best as you can.
00:32:07.855 --> 00:32:09.289
Yeah.
00:32:09.289 --> 00:32:16.190
Um, like what, what happens when once again, we're going to do that, but I thought we were close.
00:32:16.190 --> 00:32:18.123
I thought we were friends.
00:32:18.123 --> 00:32:20.222
What happens when you get that pushback?
00:32:20.222 --> 00:32:23.123
Like, as like, have you ever gotten that?
00:32:23.123 --> 00:32:26.855
Um, no, I don't think so.
00:32:26.855 --> 00:32:28.623
How would you handle that?
00:32:28.623 --> 00:32:37.623
Well, I mean, I think, well, part of that is you have not clearly defined the separation between leadership and and team members.
00:32:37.623 --> 00:32:40.389
So that's that's probably the biggest one.
00:32:40.389 --> 00:32:44.822
Um, I would say you've got to be able to separate identity from position.
00:32:44.822 --> 00:32:45.222
Yep.
00:32:45.222 --> 00:32:48.955
And you know, people often hear this role isn't working as I'm failing as a person.
00:32:48.955 --> 00:32:54.990
And that's not you're not, you're not this is not an assault on your character or humanity.
00:32:54.990 --> 00:32:56.355
You are not right for the role.
00:32:56.355 --> 00:33:01.589
So I feel like you can value someone deeply and still know the role isn't right.
00:33:01.589 --> 00:33:05.255
And role ending is not a human worth judgment, right?
00:33:05.255 --> 00:33:05.990
What about you?
00:33:05.990 --> 00:33:08.355
I to me, I, it becomes very simple for me.
00:33:08.355 --> 00:33:12.190
I'm like, look like I understand that and I appreciate that.
00:33:12.190 --> 00:33:19.355
Um, if we're talking about the job here, yeah, this is not a role that is currently fitting what you're doing.
00:33:19.355 --> 00:33:30.190
And as long as you can say, once again, we talked before about it putting, I don't want to say, putting the blame on the machine instead of the person, but look, you're not the right part to fix this machine.
00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:35.423
No, you do not take a oil filter off of a Honda and try and stick it on a Chevy.
00:33:35.423 --> 00:33:36.289
It doesn't work.
00:33:36.289 --> 00:33:36.889
Yeah.
00:33:36.889 --> 00:33:37.289
That's.
00:33:37.289 --> 00:33:37.556
Yeah.
00:33:37.556 --> 00:33:43.889
And I think especially in family businesses, this is probably why when you asked me that question, I'm like, no, I haven't had that problem because I fired family members.
00:33:43.889 --> 00:33:50.423
Um, but the other part is you've got to be, you got to separate to if you're family business, you separate family from role too.
00:33:50.423 --> 00:33:50.722
Yes.
00:33:50.722 --> 00:33:53.355
And it's like, but I thought we were I thought you were my mom.
00:33:53.355 --> 00:33:55.490
It's like I am your mom, but you're still fired.
00:33:55.490 --> 00:34:00.855
So I and you probably have not experienced this what I have.
00:34:00.855 --> 00:34:15.222
I mean, any time I have switched jobs through my employment career, um, that usually followed two or three weeks in by a litany of Facebook friend requests.
00:34:15.222 --> 00:34:17.789
And I'm like, I'm not your, I'm not your friend.
00:34:17.789 --> 00:34:17.923
Yeah.
00:34:17.923 --> 00:34:19.889
I haven't had that because I haven't go anywhere.
00:34:19.889 --> 00:34:20.655
Right.
00:34:20.655 --> 00:34:24.889
I'm not, I, I don't want, I don't care what you did on Saturday night.
00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:26.289
You do karaoke.
00:34:26.289 --> 00:34:27.356
Oh my God.
00:34:27.356 --> 00:34:29.356
Now I have even less respect for you.
00:34:29.356 --> 00:34:34.322
Well, I'm going to tell you and people that are not business owners.
00:34:34.322 --> 00:34:34.990
Okay?
00:34:34.990 --> 00:34:36.956
I want you to hear me right now.
00:34:36.956 --> 00:34:39.190
Do not friend your HR people.
00:34:39.190 --> 00:34:40.023
Do not.
00:34:40.023 --> 00:34:43.322
Oh, God, do not they do it with us all the.
00:34:43.322 --> 00:34:43.789
Here's.
00:34:43.789 --> 00:34:46.056
Or your fractional HR people like.
00:34:46.056 --> 00:34:46.855
That's the other part.
00:34:46.855 --> 00:34:50.289
Like there are times I'm like, really people right?
00:34:50.289 --> 00:34:51.389
You do not want.
00:34:51.389 --> 00:34:54.289
No, you just opened the door.
00:34:54.289 --> 00:34:55.322
You did.
00:34:55.322 --> 00:34:58.422
Now business owners, please friend me because we need to watch you.
00:34:58.422 --> 00:35:03.222
And occasionally I need to give you feedback on things that you're doing that may or may not be appropriate.
00:35:05.955 --> 00:35:07.022
That I have done.
00:35:07.022 --> 00:35:09.155
I did have a conversation with a business owner.
00:35:09.155 --> 00:35:15.322
I was like, look, do you realize how many people can actually see every time you get tagged doing certain things?
00:35:15.322 --> 00:35:18.155
And he's like, what do you mean right?
00:35:18.155 --> 00:35:20.190
No. Right, right.
00:35:20.190 --> 00:35:23.389
Guess who doesn't do those things anymore or does, but doesn't let any.
00:35:23.389 --> 00:35:25.289
I'm like, stop letting people tag you.
00:35:25.289 --> 00:35:26.155
Correct.
00:35:26.155 --> 00:35:33.989
Not only that, but then the other thing is too is when they see, hey, you're at the baseball game on a Thursday afternoon that they requested off for.
00:35:33.989 --> 00:35:37.690
And you're like, sorry, we can't because you're at the baseball game because.
00:35:37.690 --> 00:35:39.989
And they see that on somebody tagged you.
00:35:39.989 --> 00:35:40.222
I'm sorry.
00:35:40.222 --> 00:35:41.022
I'm working really hard.
00:35:41.022 --> 00:35:42.022
No, you are not.
00:35:42.022 --> 00:35:45.555
So yes, I know we just did a tangent there, but that's it.
00:35:45.555 --> 00:35:45.989
I love it.
00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:47.489
You're welcome, I love it.
00:35:47.489 --> 00:35:52.755
Um, here's one that I always find interesting because we're trying to, we want to talk about the good side of this too.
00:35:52.755 --> 00:35:58.955
So the post promotion audit, how do you, how do you, how, how do you track if that data was right?
00:35:58.955 --> 00:36:01.989
What's that ninety day success metric for new leaders?
00:36:01.989 --> 00:36:02.189
Yeah.
00:36:02.189 --> 00:36:06.855
So first let's have this conversation and say that promotions are beginnings, not finish lines.
00:36:06.855 --> 00:36:07.989
I think oh thank you.
00:36:07.989 --> 00:36:10.022
Most people think like, oh, okay, we promoted them.
00:36:10.022 --> 00:36:10.789
Now everything's fine.
00:36:10.789 --> 00:36:14.789
No promotion should have they have to have measurable success markers.
00:36:14.789 --> 00:36:17.622
It can't just be, well, I promoted them and now everything's going to be wonderful.
00:36:17.622 --> 00:36:23.155
So if you do not give them what success looks like, you're setting them up for failure.
00:36:23.155 --> 00:36:26.089
So you don't just promote people and disappear.
00:36:26.089 --> 00:36:28.255
Leadership transitions have to have follow up.
00:36:28.255 --> 00:36:30.689
They can't just be assumptions.
00:36:30.689 --> 00:36:32.389
Yeah, no, I, it's funny, I agree.
00:36:32.389 --> 00:36:38.689
Anytime I promote someone anytime I hire someone, hiring or promoting has the same thing to it.
00:36:38.689 --> 00:36:39.089
Yes.
00:36:39.089 --> 00:36:40.522
Here's where I want you in thirty days.
00:36:40.522 --> 00:36:41.289
Here's where I want you.
00:36:41.289 --> 00:36:43.922
In sixty days, ninety.
00:36:43.922 --> 00:36:45.122
Here's six months.
00:36:45.122 --> 00:36:45.855
Here's a year.
00:36:45.855 --> 00:36:47.522
Yes, this is your timeline.
00:36:47.522 --> 00:36:50.689
Whether it's a promotion, whether it's a new hire, doesn't matter.
00:36:50.689 --> 00:36:51.922
You've got a timeline.
00:36:51.922 --> 00:36:52.455
Yes.
00:36:52.455 --> 00:36:57.189
And we do not promote or reward people for behavior that we claim to dislike.
00:36:58.589 --> 00:37:03.522
We do not promote our brilliant jerks or the bad cop or the bad cop.
00:37:06.255 --> 00:37:19.055
Because the team watches who gets elevated, and then promotion and culture are broadcast into what that elevation is, and you are creating a toxic environment one hundred percent, one hundred percent, uh, some key takeaways out of this.
00:37:19.055 --> 00:37:26.889
Uh, to me, your gut, the next time you feel like you want to fire or promote someone, write down three pieces of hard data to support it.
00:37:26.889 --> 00:37:29.655
Yeah, wait thirty days, get documentation.
00:37:29.655 --> 00:37:29.889
Yeah.
00:37:29.889 --> 00:37:32.989
My simplification to that would be separate emotion from evidence.
00:37:32.989 --> 00:37:35.622
You're going to feel the emotion, but you are going to verify the pattern.
00:37:35.622 --> 00:37:36.422
Yeah.
00:37:36.422 --> 00:37:45.222
And something that we've both kind of said is taking the time to pull yourself out, like to do other things that pull you out of the emotional state.
00:37:45.222 --> 00:37:54.222
So to me, it's like if I was a third party consultant looking at this spreadsheet or whatever, what would I tell the owner to do if I was looking at these KPIs, what would I tell the owner to do?
00:37:54.222 --> 00:37:54.522
Yeah.
00:37:54.522 --> 00:37:55.955
Remove the emotion from yourself.
00:37:55.955 --> 00:37:56.522
Yep.
00:37:56.522 --> 00:37:57.022
Yep.
00:37:57.022 --> 00:37:58.689
And then promotion signal value.
00:37:58.689 --> 00:38:01.822
So the team learns what matters by watching who advances.
00:38:01.822 --> 00:38:05.189
So it's not just about who you keep or who you let go.
00:38:05.189 --> 00:38:06.455
It's about who you elevate.
00:38:06.455 --> 00:38:07.955
You're one hundred percent.
00:38:07.955 --> 00:38:10.922
Um. Directness I found also prevents drama.
00:38:10.922 --> 00:38:12.522
We're pretty low drama.
00:38:12.522 --> 00:38:13.589
We're at pedal stomper.
00:38:13.589 --> 00:38:15.389
Yes you are.
00:38:15.389 --> 00:38:18.989
Um, tell the team exactly why someone was promoted.
00:38:18.989 --> 00:38:22.422
They hit X metrics filled Y skill gap.
00:38:22.422 --> 00:38:24.322
We really were looking forward to this.
00:38:24.322 --> 00:38:24.755
Yeah.
00:38:24.755 --> 00:38:28.322
Um, if you just leave it open, people are going to fill in the blanks on their own.
00:38:28.322 --> 00:38:30.355
I would say compassion requires clarity.
00:38:30.355 --> 00:38:36.055
Being empathetic does not mean avoiding those hard decisions one hundred percent.
00:38:36.055 --> 00:38:37.655
Be equitable for the whole team.
00:38:37.655 --> 00:38:38.422
Yep.
00:38:38.422 --> 00:38:39.189
Yep.
00:38:39.189 --> 00:38:45.555
Uh, here's a I was looking forward to this question just to see your eyes roll all the way across the floor.
00:38:45.555 --> 00:38:50.822
Um, is it ever okay to hire or promote a friend over a more qualified stranger?
00:38:50.822 --> 00:38:53.689
Only if the evidence supports it.
00:38:53.689 --> 00:38:57.222
Friendship is not a qualification.
00:38:57.222 --> 00:39:00.955
No. I like them, we're friends.
00:39:00.955 --> 00:39:02.655
Do you know what a recipe for disaster is?
00:39:02.655 --> 00:39:03.389
Is when you're just.
00:39:03.389 --> 00:39:05.055
When you promote or you hire.
00:39:05.055 --> 00:39:06.022
I just like them.
00:39:08.422 --> 00:39:09.155
I just like them.
00:39:09.155 --> 00:39:09.989
I've seen it.
00:39:09.989 --> 00:39:16.055
I have too, and it never ends well because those are also the ones that you never get the performance agreements in place.
00:39:16.055 --> 00:39:17.255
You never do the employment agreement.
00:39:17.255 --> 00:39:19.022
You never do the separation agreement, right.
00:39:19.022 --> 00:39:23.089
You never do a non-disclosure non-solicitation because you're friends.
00:39:23.089 --> 00:39:23.789
We're friends.
00:39:23.789 --> 00:39:25.789
Well, my dad used to say, we're all friends until we're not.
00:39:25.789 --> 00:39:29.755
I feel like he was being Yogi Berra, but that's just it's a very.
00:39:29.755 --> 00:39:31.289
It's clear until it's over.
00:39:31.289 --> 00:39:31.855
It's not.
00:39:31.855 --> 00:39:33.255
But we're all friends until we're not.
00:39:33.255 --> 00:39:34.855
And that is in the insurance industry.
00:39:34.855 --> 00:39:36.289
That is so true.
00:39:36.289 --> 00:39:39.722
And it has bitten me and I'm just not going to do it anymore.
00:39:39.722 --> 00:39:42.722
How do you like work with a team to get past the survivor guilt?
00:39:42.722 --> 00:39:48.055
If someone's let go after like the rest of the team's like, mm, that sucks.
00:39:48.055 --> 00:39:49.255
Bob's gone.
00:39:49.255 --> 00:39:52.555
So you normalize the emotion, you reinforce the direction, you know?
00:39:52.555 --> 00:39:55.689
Yeah, this is hard, but this is the direction that we're going.
00:39:55.689 --> 00:39:57.889
The team needs stability after change.
00:39:57.889 --> 00:40:01.889
They don't need you to be, like, put on your superhero cape and tell them everything's going to be fine.
00:40:01.889 --> 00:40:05.089
They don't need you to trash the person and say that like, we're better off.
00:40:05.089 --> 00:40:06.122
Don't do that either.
00:40:06.122 --> 00:40:07.655
God, I've had that happen.
00:40:07.655 --> 00:40:09.155
I have to like you.
00:40:09.155 --> 00:40:10.689
Just just give them stability.
00:40:10.689 --> 00:40:12.855
Hey, this is who we are.
00:40:12.855 --> 00:40:15.655
This is where we're aligning and this is where we're going.
00:40:15.655 --> 00:40:27.255
To me, what's funny about it is, is like I, in most cases, it's brutally obvious, but I explain why exactly they didn't meet X, Y, and Z. We worked with them over six months.
00:40:27.255 --> 00:40:28.555
Yeah, this is it.
00:40:28.555 --> 00:40:36.522
And chances are your employees, your team members are way less surprised than you are about the termination coming because they've watched it way longer than you have.
00:40:36.522 --> 00:40:36.822
Yeah.
00:40:36.822 --> 00:40:38.589
And I mean they know what was coming.
00:40:38.589 --> 00:40:38.989
Yeah.
00:40:38.989 --> 00:40:42.622
And when you acknowledge that and say, hey, I was X, Y, and Z, they're like, oh yeah.
00:40:42.622 --> 00:40:43.455
So we were right.
00:40:43.455 --> 00:40:43.855
Yep.
00:40:43.855 --> 00:40:45.122
Sure.
00:40:45.122 --> 00:40:47.022
That validation, they're like, oh, this is great.
00:40:47.022 --> 00:40:47.589
Yeah.
00:40:47.589 --> 00:40:51.955
What's the one metric that never lies when someone walks into a room?
00:40:53.089 --> 00:40:55.322
Oh, I like that, I agree.
00:40:55.322 --> 00:40:58.589
Uh, it, it truly is like all the oxygen gets sucked out.
00:40:58.589 --> 00:40:58.989
Yep.
00:40:58.989 --> 00:41:09.922
And what's funny is, is, is this is where this is this is a great, I think this is a great way to end this because to me, this is where emotions are hard data.
00:41:09.922 --> 00:41:10.155
Yeah.
00:41:10.155 --> 00:41:10.522
They are.
00:41:10.522 --> 00:41:11.355
Absolutely.
00:41:11.355 --> 00:41:14.589
You see everyone like, oh damn, that guy's in the meeting.
00:41:14.589 --> 00:41:15.222
Yeah.
00:41:15.222 --> 00:41:18.855
Um, if they if like everybody smiles, everybody sits up.
00:41:18.855 --> 00:41:19.289
Yeah.
00:41:19.289 --> 00:41:23.122
As opposed to they slouch and they're like, oh, they reach for their phones.
00:41:26.522 --> 00:41:27.322
It was funny.
00:41:27.322 --> 00:41:28.789
Why all of a sudden is everyone texting?
00:41:28.789 --> 00:41:33.455
I was at a conference the other day, and I saw that as soon as someone got up on the stage, everyone's like, oh, this guy.
00:41:33.455 --> 00:41:36.622
And everyone grabbed their phones and I'm like, oh, okay.
00:41:36.622 --> 00:41:38.822
I'm not expecting a barn burner of a speech here.
00:41:38.822 --> 00:41:39.689
Nope.
00:41:39.689 --> 00:41:45.722
Speaking of barn burner speeches, you guys need to make sure that you tune in again next week.
00:41:45.722 --> 00:41:47.355
We haven't even picked the topic yet for that.
00:41:47.355 --> 00:41:47.855
No we haven't.
00:41:47.855 --> 00:41:48.689
We're winging it.
00:41:48.689 --> 00:41:50.955
Aha! Oh, boy.
00:41:50.955 --> 00:41:52.122
We will not be winging it.
00:41:52.122 --> 00:41:54.022
So make sure you show up for that one.
00:41:54.022 --> 00:41:55.655
That being said, do us a favor.
00:41:55.655 --> 00:41:57.589
Go to business podcast dot com.
00:41:57.589 --> 00:42:01.222
As always, take care of yourself if you can take care of someone else too.
00:42:01.222 --> 00:42:05.055
We will see you very, very soon.