Parents, Why Fluidity in Gender Identity Isn’t Something To Fear

Heather
00:00:00
Welcome back my friends.

Heather
00:00:02
And welcome.

Heather
00:00:03
If this is your first time listening, I am so happy you are here.

Heather
00:00:08
So I am a huge fan of Glennon Doyle's podcast.

Heather
00:00:13
We can do hard things.

Heather
00:00:14
I'm sure so many of you listen to that as well.

Heather
00:00:17
And as you know, she does that podcast with her wife Abby and her sister Amanda.

Heather
00:00:23
And it's my go to for when I'm walking, you know, especially when I'm walking, when I'm out of town somewhere and I always come away with a new perspective or a way that I can be more gentle with myself.

Heather
00:00:40
So this past week it actually had a direct effect on this podcast.

Heather
00:00:45
They sent out a heads up email that Apple's recent updates had caused listeners downloads to pause.

Heather
00:00:52
So if you've been following whatever podcasts that you follow, you just weren't following them anymore.

Heather
00:01:00
So you weren't getting the automatic downloads, you weren't getting updates, you weren't getting notified when new episodes were being dropped.

Heather
00:01:08
And so I checked my Apple podcasts and it happened absolutely to me that every show I had been following had been unfollowed.

Heather
00:01:17
So it's super easy to pop in there and refollow your favorite shows.

Heather
00:01:23
It took me, you know, just a second to do.

Heather
00:01:25
I did send out an email this week to let you all know how to do it as well as some socials with an infographic with help.

Heather
00:01:33
But just shoot me an email if you need help or jump on my socials and you'll see an infographic that really helps.

Heather
00:01:42
Just go through, I think four steps to refollow all of your favorite shows.

Heather
00:01:48
We don't want to miss these things.

Heather
00:01:50
I was wondering why I was missing things and that is why.

Heather
00:01:53
So super happy that everyone over at We Can Do Hard Things did sent that out and just super grateful.

Heather
00:02:02
I also want to bring back sharing beautiful reviews that I receive with you all.

Heather
00:02:09
I had done that there for a while I think last year and then I stopped and I don't remember why I stopped, but I want to start doing it again and this time I'm going to level it up a little bit.

Heather
00:02:23
If the review I read is yours, I want you to DM me on Instagram at Chrysalismama is my handle there And DM me with your most burning question and I will answer it in a super detailed video that I will post to Instagram and I will post to YouTube and I will take as much time as it needs to answer that question.

Heather
00:02:48
So fingers crossed if you haven't already left a review for the show.

Heather
00:02:53
I would love your review for Just Breathe Parenting your LGBTQ teen.

Heather
00:02:59
That is super helpful and I always love to hear from people who are listening.

Heather
00:03:06
So today's review that I'm going to read is this.

Heather
00:03:09
And the.

Heather
00:03:10
The username is a lot of letters and numbers, so it did not make any sense to read it.

Heather
00:03:15
So if this sounds familiar to you, listen up.

Heather
00:03:18
This person says, this podcast is a great place to educate myself and it's a warm, safe space to be in the world.

Heather
00:03:28
At a time when the world feels unsafe and out of control.

Heather
00:03:32
Listening to Heather and her guests helps me feel connected to the strongest part of us all.

Heather
00:03:38
Love.

Heather
00:03:39
Thank you.

Heather
00:03:41
Thank you for that review, which is beautiful.

Heather
00:03:44
It is why I do this.

Heather
00:03:46
And I'm just so grateful for all of you listening and that this brings just even a moment of joy to your lives.

Heather
00:03:58
So I invite you to listen to today's episode with your heart.

Heather
00:04:03
If you can possibly just put your brain on hold for a minute and just open up your heart, do that.

Heather
00:04:10
Part of the work that I continue to do, my personal work, is to let go of that desire for boxes to check or labels to place, to embrace that life and all of its beauty and its messiness is on a continuum to be aware of reductionistic thinking and the idea that we have to prove who we are.

Heather
00:04:43
Today's guest is back for a second time, and this time is sharing life experience and wisdom that is no less thought provoking and wonder filled than our first interview.

Heather
00:04:56
You can read his full bio in the show notes, but to help jog your memory, our last interview was a discussion around his book, how we do family and his experience with pregnancy as a trans man.

Heather
00:05:10
Today he returns with a parenting story that I can only say is phenomenal.

Heather
00:05:17
It is wise, evolved, and so very connected.

Heather
00:05:23
He is a model for all of us to lean in, especially when it feels uncomfortable.

Heather
00:05:43
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting your LGBTQ teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather
00:05:56
My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather
00:06:01
I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather
00:06:10
Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.

Heather
00:06:28
Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you Are not alone.

Heather
00:06:45
Tristan, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Heather
00:06:49
I'm so excited to have you here.

Heather
00:06:51
It has been a couple of years, I think, since you were last on talking about your book, which I love and I still do recommend to people.

Heather
00:07:00
I actually just recommended it.

Heather
00:07:02
I didn't tell you this when we were talking a few minutes ago.

Heather
00:07:04
I just recommended it earlier this week.

Heather
00:07:05
I was in a meeting with somebody and they were asking questions, and I was like, I have the perfect book for you to understand this.

Heather
00:07:14
So love, you know, just.

Heather
00:07:17
I'm so, so thrilled.

Heather
00:07:18
And what you have come to talk about today and to discuss is a topic I think we'll.

Heather
00:07:25
Well, I know we'll make everybody kind of sit up and listen, but everyone, I want you to sit up and listen and really hear what Tristan has to say and listen to this discussion, because this is something really important for all of us, especially parents, allies, and anyone who is actually kind of walking through this right now.

Heather
00:07:50
So with that, Tristan, thank you so much.

Heather
00:07:54
I'm so glad you're here.

Tristan
00:07:56
Yeah.

Tristan
00:07:56
What a delight to be back and for once, to not be talking about transfertility, which I love.

Tristan
00:08:03
I'm obsessed with it.

Tristan
00:08:04
I think about it day and night, and hopefully this will be like, see, I have.

Tristan
00:08:08
I am not a one trick pony.

Heather
00:08:11
That's right.

Tristan
00:08:12
But, yeah, you know, we've been a little bit private about this.

Tristan
00:08:16
I mean, we've been private about everything.

Tristan
00:08:18
Some folks, if you've been following the podcast for a long time, then you heard me.

Tristan
00:08:23
You know, as Heather mentioned a couple of years ago, coming on, I'm a transgender man.

Tristan
00:08:28
I gave birth to a baby six years ago.

Tristan
00:08:32
He's in first grade now.

Tristan
00:08:33
And then a few years before that, my partner and I had adopted my partner's niece and nephew.

Tristan
00:08:38
And so parenting is a big part of our lives.

Tristan
00:08:41
And, you know, now I'm a transgender parent, so I'm, you know, sort of wearing, always wearing both hats, a member of the community and raising the next generation of human beings.

Tristan
00:08:51
And a few years ago, our middlest child is how I often refer to Sully sat us down and said, you know, I really feel like even though I have been treated as a girl and was assigned female at birth, like, I really do feel like a boy and I'd like to cut my hair and I'd like to go by a different name.

Tristan
00:09:12
And, you know, we went through that experience, and I have since left social media.

Tristan
00:09:18
I mentioned it a little bit online, but was very.

Tristan
00:09:23
I wanted to be really thoughtful about it.

Tristan
00:09:26
And, you know, for me, as a transgender person, there's a real trap when you're a transgender parent, which is people look at you and look at your kids and think, are you going to mess them up somehow?

Tristan
00:09:42
You know?

Tristan
00:09:43
And I feel like we spend a lot of time either consciously or unconsciously, trying to convince people, don't worry, our kids will be, quote, unquote, normal.

Tristan
00:09:53
Don't worry.

Tristan
00:09:53
Whatever is wrong with me, I'm not going to pass that on to my kids.

Tristan
00:09:58
And for me, this was, like, really crystallized in a gross way when our older kids were little and they saw their great grandma for the first time since they'd come to live with us, me and my partner, and she said to us, oh, thank God.

Tristan
00:10:15
I see that you've gendered them appropriately.

Tristan
00:10:19
And the little girl child was in a dress, and the little boy child was in jeans.

Tristan
00:10:22
And it was super clear that she was under the impression that we were going to, quote, unquote, mess them up.

Tristan
00:10:27
Do you know what I mean?

Heather
00:10:28
Right, right.

Tristan
00:10:29
Because that's there.

Tristan
00:10:30
Either, like, consciously or unconsciously, it's an additional burden that trans parents have to carry with us.

Tristan
00:10:36
So then it's like, if our kid does come out as trans or somehow gender non conforming, it's like, oh, no, we've somehow failed.

Heather
00:10:47
Right.

Tristan
00:10:47
You know, that can kind of be what the world teaches us, which is really gross.

Tristan
00:10:55
It somehow is, right?

Heather
00:10:57
Yeah, it's very gross.

Heather
00:10:58
And I wonder.

Heather
00:11:00
I do often think about this, and I, you know, and a number of couples that I know who are same sex couples who are raising children, and I think, okay.

Heather
00:11:12
And transgender.

Heather
00:11:13
I mean, I think you might be the.

Heather
00:11:15
I mean, I just love that I know you, but I don't know that I know any other.

Heather
00:11:19
Actually, I should say I take that back, because I do.

Heather
00:11:22
But anyway, it doesn't matter.

Heather
00:11:23
I wonder.

Heather
00:11:25
I've wondered that, like, how much is that part of your psyche every single day?

Heather
00:11:31
And what messages are you receiving from other people, both verbally and non verbally, and how do we counteract that?

Heather
00:11:41
What do we do about that?

Tristan
00:11:42
Right.

Tristan
00:11:42
What do we do about that?

Tristan
00:11:44
You know?

Tristan
00:11:44
And so it is something that I have thought a lot about.

Tristan
00:11:48
And so when Sully came to us and said, you know, I feel like I'm a boy, I want to cut my hair, I want to change my name, you know, I was ironically, really skeptical internally, you know, which, of course, it is.

Tristan
00:12:03
Again, very ironic because I am a transgender man myself, so how dare I be like, are you really, though?

Tristan
00:12:11
You Know, and Sully had exhibited zero signs of gender incongruity up until that moment.

Tristan
00:12:20
No real desire to dress like in a more masculine or androgynous way.

Tristan
00:12:26
The ways that we sort of code that in our society.

Tristan
00:12:29
No interest in sort of more traditionally like boy toys or clothes.

Tristan
00:12:33
But like, I wasn't that way either, you know, like I didn't know I was trans when I was a kid, you know, and so it was.

Tristan
00:12:40
I did have to check myself, you know, I really did.

Heather
00:12:44
Well, and I think do.

Heather
00:12:46
Did you also wonder, like, because it is part of your conversation, part of just what you are teaching.

Heather
00:12:52
You're teaching your children just to be so much more open and so much more aware and that this is something that they were probably like, well, this seems like it fits.

Heather
00:13:04
And.

Tristan
00:13:04
Yeah, right.

Tristan
00:13:05
That's the thing is I was like, well, I.

Tristan
00:13:07
But, but the reason I didn't know sooner in my life was because I didn't have the language.

Tristan
00:13:11
I didn't have any.

Tristan
00:13:12
I had nothing.

Heather
00:13:13
Right, right.

Tristan
00:13:14
But of course all that was internal and behind closed door conversations.

Tristan
00:13:18
And of course with our kid, we were just sort of like, sure, whatever you want.

Tristan
00:13:22
Like, you can cut your hair, you can wear whatever clothes you want, you can go with whatever name you want, whatever.

Tristan
00:13:25
We don't care, you know, knowing of course that if we said are you sure?

Tristan
00:13:30
Then that's not fair, you know, to put on our kid.

Tristan
00:13:35
But also really forcing the issue also wouldn't be fair either.

Tristan
00:13:38
You know, just like, this is amazing.

Tristan
00:13:40
Let's throw a coming out party.

Tristan
00:13:41
And you know, that's too much too for a, you know, for a tween, a pre tween.

Tristan
00:13:46
They don't want that either, you know, so we held really lightly to it and went through some stages of, you know, super short hair, really masculine clothes, coming out to friends and family, all the things and having to deal with, you know, I did have someone in my life, a close blood relative who said, you know, you did this to your kid, that your kid feels like there's no way that they could be loved if they weren't trans because that's who you are.

Tristan
00:14:18
And I have since cut that person out of my life completely.

Tristan
00:14:22
Yeah, that's a brutally short sighted, transphobic and judgmental thing to say that is not at all rooted in reality.

Heather
00:14:32
Right.

Tristan
00:14:32
So I had to go through a hard learning there.

Tristan
00:14:35
Not everyone, you know, you, you know, to.

Tristan
00:14:36
You have to be this cool to ride the ride, you know, you have to be the same to ride the ride in terms of Having a relationship with me and.

Tristan
00:14:44
And having access to a relationship with my kids.

Tristan
00:14:47
You have to be there.

Tristan
00:14:49
There.

Tristan
00:14:49
There is a litmus test, and that is it.

Tristan
00:14:52
Yeah.

Tristan
00:14:53
And so you.

Tristan
00:14:53
Yeah, go ahead.

Heather
00:14:54
No, no, no.

Heather
00:14:55
I was just going to say I think that's very reasonable.

Heather
00:14:58
A very reasonable litmus test.

Heather
00:15:00
I mean, that was beyond cruel as far as.

Heather
00:15:03
I mean, that's me being.

Heather
00:15:05
Sharing my opinion, but not acceptable.

Tristan
00:15:08
Yeah, no, I agree with you.

Tristan
00:15:09
It's not acceptable.

Tristan
00:15:10
And all three of our kids know that they have our unflinching, unconditional love for now and for always.

Tristan
00:15:18
Right.

Tristan
00:15:19
And that absolutely supersedes their gender or gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, anything, Anything political affiliation, religious, you know, beliefs.

Tristan
00:15:32
Like our love for them is, you know, stretches throughout all time and all place.

Tristan
00:15:38
And for someone to.

Tristan
00:15:40
Yeah, it was extremely hurtful, I'll say that.

Tristan
00:15:43
Yeah.

Tristan
00:15:44
But, you know, the reason that I was interested in coming on is to talk about that first piece around, like, what kinds of double standards do we put on trans people?

Tristan
00:15:54
You know?

Tristan
00:15:56
And then the second thing I wanted to talk about is that our middle child outgrew it, which is, like, so counterintuitive again, because we're constantly saying, it's not a phase, they won't outgrow it.

Tristan
00:16:09
But, like, what if they do?

Tristan
00:16:11
And how do we hold that as like.

Tristan
00:16:16
Absolutely.

Tristan
00:16:16
When relatives say, well, it's just a phase, they'll outgrow it instead of being like, no, they won't.

Tristan
00:16:22
You know, how can we be like, yeah, maybe, maybe.

Heather
00:16:25
Right.

Tristan
00:16:26
And how do we support them through that, too?

Tristan
00:16:30
And.

Tristan
00:16:30
Right.

Tristan
00:16:31
Sully.

Tristan
00:16:31
It was slow, you know, so it was like, okay, well, you know, I go by both pronouns or all pronouns, you know?

Tristan
00:16:39
And then, like, I noticed that, like, oh, you're growing your hair out and not asking for a haircut again.

Tristan
00:16:46
And then when we go shopping, you're like, back to the, like, girl section instead of the boy section.

Tristan
00:16:52
And you know what I mean?

Tristan
00:16:53
It was, like, a slow thing, and I really tried to not.

Tristan
00:16:57
Again, like, you don't want to impose at this point, we were like, at, like, 11, then 12, then they don't want to talk to you, you know.

Heather
00:17:08
Yeah, that continues.

Tristan
00:17:10
I know, I know it continues.

Tristan
00:17:13
But I started noticing, like, Sully would be telling other people, like, oh, I go by both pronouns, or I go by she and they.

Tristan
00:17:23
And then.

Tristan
00:17:24
And then.

Tristan
00:17:24
You'll appreciate this as a parent, Heather, of course, even though I'm consistently maybe once every three to six months.

Tristan
00:17:31
Oh, hey, by the way, like, what pronouns are you using like how, what's, what's like are, is they them still feeling good for you?

Tristan
00:17:37
Just like a little bit of a pulse check.

Heather
00:17:40
Right?

Heather
00:17:40
Exactly.

Tristan
00:17:41
Always treated as if that was the most like ridiculous, stupid, inappropriate thing for me to ever ask.

Tristan
00:17:47
Thank you so much, my lovely teenager.

Tristan
00:17:52
And then come to find out she doesn't identify as non binary anymore in the most obnoxious way possible.

Heather
00:17:59
Oh, stop.

Tristan
00:18:00
Yes.

Tristan
00:18:01
Well, my mom sends me a text.

Tristan
00:18:05
Hey, there's this trans non binary youth event in Canada.

Tristan
00:18:10
It's a week long free summer camp where they can go and there's like singing and dancing and karaoke and board games and like adventure hikes, whatever.

Tristan
00:18:22
And it's close to my mom's house in B.C.

Tristan
00:18:26
and it's free.

Tristan
00:18:26
Right.

Tristan
00:18:27
So I send the flyer to my child, whom I love.

Tristan
00:18:32
Hey, this is happening near Grammy's house.

Tristan
00:18:35
I would love to.

Tristan
00:18:36
I'm happy to drive you up to Canada, which is like an eight hour drive.

Tristan
00:18:42
I'll stay at Grammy's while you're there and then I'll pick you up and we'll come home.

Tristan
00:18:46
Right.

Tristan
00:18:46
I think as a parent I'm doing this, making this lovely offer of a gesture to my child and she responds, pass.

Heather
00:18:57
Oh yeah, okay.

Heather
00:19:02
But nothing else.

Heather
00:19:03
Just pass.

Tristan
00:19:04
Nothing else.

Tristan
00:19:05
Pass.

Tristan
00:19:06
And I was like, okay, comma, why question mark.

Tristan
00:19:10
You know, I'm just trying to understand, like, where did I miss the mark here?

Tristan
00:19:13
I.

Heather
00:19:13
Right, exactly.

Heather
00:19:15
Do you not like Canada?

Heather
00:19:16
Is it?

Heather
00:19:17
You don't like board games?

Heather
00:19:19
Like yes, exactly.

Heather
00:19:20
Let's narrow this down a little bit.

Tristan
00:19:23
Exactly.

Tristan
00:19:25
And then she writes back, no reason, just no thanks, I'm good.

Tristan
00:19:35
And I was like, okay.

Tristan
00:19:38
And then she writes back a screenshot of the flyer with the trans non binary gender, like gender creative part circled, you know, like edited and said.

Tristan
00:19:53
Also, I'm none of these things.

Heather
00:19:56
Oh, and I'm like, like an aside.

Heather
00:20:00
Like as a P.S.

Tristan
00:20:02
Yes.

Tristan
00:20:02
Number one, this doesn't sound fun and how dare you suggest it.

Tristan
00:20:05
Number two, by the way, I'm not.

Heather
00:20:08
Trans, btw, let you know as if.

Tristan
00:20:14
I am a total.

Tristan
00:20:15
Well, clearly.

Heather
00:20:18
I mean, how did you not know that?

Heather
00:20:23
I.

Heather
00:20:23
I just the long list of things that we don't know that, that we're supposed to just like know.

Tristan
00:20:31
Yes.

Tristan
00:20:32
It was as if I had asked her, what does Riz mean?

Heather
00:20:37
I actually asked that question because I couldn't like figure out where all the other letters were, which ones they were supposed to be.

Heather
00:20:45
But then when it was explained to.

Tristan
00:20:47
Me, I mean, duh, obviously it's charisma.

Heather
00:20:52
Charisma it's in the middle of the stupid word.

Heather
00:20:56
I mean, come on.

Tristan
00:20:57
Yeah.

Tristan
00:20:57
Anyway, so number one, I just want, like anyone who's listening to think, to understand that, like, even if you were queer or trans, if you're not, your kid is still going to talk to you like you're an idiot.

Heather
00:21:11
Yes.

Tristan
00:21:12
You are no closer to them in terms of them confiding in you or like actually bringing you into their thought process.

Tristan
00:21:19
They are still going to treat you as if you didn't know anything and were supposed to be psychic.

Tristan
00:21:27
So just so folks know, like, that's.

Tristan
00:21:30
That comes with the territory no matter what.

Heather
00:21:32
Yeah.

Tristan
00:21:34
And I don't know, I just wanted to make sure that people feel like it's okay if it is a face.

Heather
00:21:45
Right.

Tristan
00:21:45
And Sully's gender identity would not have met the criteria for transition.

Heather
00:21:52
Right.

Tristan
00:21:53
Like, that's the other thing.

Tristan
00:21:54
I really want to make sure that people are armed with those tools.

Tristan
00:21:58
Well, I hear about these kids where they think it one day and then they don't the next.

Tristan
00:22:03
That's right, totally.

Tristan
00:22:04
So instead of doubling down on the, like, that's not real or that doesn't happen.

Tristan
00:22:09
If you think about in those hard conversations, loosening up and leaning in.

Tristan
00:22:13
That's right.

Tristan
00:22:14
Some kids do identify as trans or non binary for a very short period of time.

Tristan
00:22:20
Those kids do not meet the criteria for puberty blockers or transition.

Tristan
00:22:26
Their gender identity is not insistent, consistent, persistent.

Tristan
00:22:31
And so those guidelines are in place to make sure that those kids are allowed to explore their gender and are protected from doing anything that might have a negative permanent impact on their development or growth.

Tristan
00:22:46
If six months later they're like, jk, I'm not any of those things with that level of attitude that my kid.

Heather
00:22:54
Circle X, I mean, kind of bravo.

Heather
00:23:02
I have to say I'm liking the SAS only because I have four of those and I do like that.

Heather
00:23:11
So a couple of things that I think are so fabulous that you are bringing up, talking about and.

Heather
00:23:18
Oh, this is so good.

Heather
00:23:20
So first of all, I love that you are talking about this in the sense of fluidity, which I think is a really hard thing for just humans to get their heads around.

Heather
00:23:35
Right.

Heather
00:23:35
That, and especially when you think about it at these ages, our kids are changing and growing and there some, you know, one day they like a sport and the next day they don't.

Heather
00:23:48
Right.

Heather
00:23:49
And they're experimenting and when they live in a home.

Heather
00:23:54
And I'm thinking, this is what.

Heather
00:23:55
Now tell me, correct me if I'm completely off base here.

Heather
00:23:58
But this is what I'm kind of hearing and thinking.

Heather
00:24:01
When they live in a home that is so loving and they know they are loved unconditionally, they know that they can show up exactly as who they are that day.

Heather
00:24:12
And it gives them the space to be able to say, this kind of feels like maybe who I am, and try it on.

Heather
00:24:21
And then six months down the road, they've developed more.

Heather
00:24:25
They've changed more, they've experienced more life.

Heather
00:24:28
They may still be in that place.

Heather
00:24:30
Awesome.

Heather
00:24:31
They may not be also awesome.

Tristan
00:24:33
Yeah.

Heather
00:24:35
And I think that's really, really hard for us to do because I think that as especially, like, you know, older, 35 plus, maybe, I don't even know.

Heather
00:24:44
Let's not put an H on it.

Heather
00:24:45
People who are a tad bit older like to put things in boxes.

Heather
00:24:48
Like, we really like to be like, okay, boy or girl.

Tristan
00:24:52
Right.

Heather
00:24:52
Gay or straight, like, there's like, you know, black or white, like, literally, like, there are just for everything.

Heather
00:24:59
And I think that this is one of the most beautiful things that we can do is just wipe all of those boxes away and not panic when there isn't one and just let them.

Tristan
00:25:10
Figure it out and get out of their way, you know, not try to get to.

Tristan
00:25:14
And then we get to model for grandparents.

Tristan
00:25:16
Right.

Tristan
00:25:17
Or we can model for whomever else that, like, yeah, you're totally right.

Tristan
00:25:21
It could be a phase.

Tristan
00:25:23
And for now, it doesn't hurt us or our kid to call them whatever name, whatever pronoun they want us to call them.

Tristan
00:25:31
That's it.

Heather
00:25:31
Right.

Heather
00:25:32
And it doesn't take away from the fact that, you know, those who.

Heather
00:25:37
It's not a phase four.

Heather
00:25:39
It doesn't say, well, they weren't created that way.

Heather
00:25:42
Right.

Heather
00:25:42
Because I think that's.

Heather
00:25:43
I'm just thinking in my head, like, all of, like, the counter arguments here that we hear.

Heather
00:25:48
And I think that's one where, you know, there's a lot of ahas, like, gotchas in this conversation, and I'd like to debunk as many as we can.

Heather
00:26:02
I want to circle back to kind of the beginning where you were talking about raising your kids and the things that do tend to come at, you know, that came at you while you were raising when they were younger and questions that people just ask.

Heather
00:26:20
And that's something that I really think is so important to debunk as well, that, you know, the identity and orientation of the parent.

Heather
00:26:32
What matters most, I mean, what I heard you say and what I, And I happen to agree with you a thousand percent, is Are these kids unconditionally loved?

Tristan
00:26:42
Yeah.

Heather
00:26:43
I'd love to hear more of your thought on that.

Tristan
00:27:40
I mean, I'll say that Leo, who's our six year old, like, he has so much more freedom to explore his interests and gender expression than our older kids did.

Tristan
00:27:54
Because by the time we get to the third kid and not being in the middle of a guardianship.

Heather
00:28:00
Sure.

Tristan
00:28:01
You know, and not having to worry that like, oh, a picture on Facebook of a kid not appropriately gendered, quote unquote, could be used in court to show that we aren't good parents and that we are going to somehow indoctrinate them into our way of thinking that anyone can express their gender however they want.

Tristan
00:28:23
God forbid.

Heather
00:28:24
Right.

Tristan
00:28:24
You know, I'm sure our older kids look at Leo and they're like, what the hell?

Tristan
00:28:27
You let him wear whatever he wants.

Tristan
00:28:29
You know, we're like, yeah, we do.

Tristan
00:28:31
You know, the circumstances are very different.

Tristan
00:28:34
And Leo will tell you he's six and so he has a very strong gender identity as boy.

Tristan
00:28:38
He also has a very strong gender expression which is feminine.

Tristan
00:28:42
He's like, very much.

Tristan
00:28:44
He will say, like, I'm a boy who likes girl things.

Tristan
00:28:47
Like he loves foofy dresses.

Tristan
00:28:49
He wants to wear them to school.

Tristan
00:28:51
And we let him because A, we're tired, we're 10 years older than we were when our kids were starting to want to express themselves differently.

Tristan
00:29:04
Yeah.

Tristan
00:29:05
And B, the stakes are just way, way, way, way lower.

Tristan
00:29:08
You know, we're not in the middle of having our, like, parenthood challenged legally.

Tristan
00:29:16
We don't have to, we don't have to prove ourselves to anyone with him.

Tristan
00:29:20
And it is, it's, it's very, it's very weird because you want, I sometimes find myself like in public spaces and he's got short hair now because he wants to have short hair and he's wearing a dress.

Tristan
00:29:32
And I, you know, there's that part of me that wants to say, but don't worry, like, I didn't make him this way.

Tristan
00:29:37
Like, we've just gotten out of his way.

Heather
00:29:40
Right.

Tristan
00:29:41
But the truth is we did make him this way, only in that we gave him the freedom to explore and express himself.

Tristan
00:29:50
And what we know is that no grown up human ever goes to their parents and says, how dare you have let me figure out my own path.

Tristan
00:30:00
You know, like grown ups don't go to their parents and say, I wish you hadn't given me the freedom to figure out who I was at a young age.

Tristan
00:30:07
Like, it just doesn't happen.

Tristan
00:30:10
You know, he'll never come to us and say, well, why did you put me in a dress?

Tristan
00:30:13
Because we'll say, you put yourself in those.

Heather
00:30:16
Right.

Heather
00:30:16
Exactly.

Heather
00:30:18
Exactly.

Tristan
00:30:19
The opposite is usually what happens.

Tristan
00:30:21
I really wish that you had let me express myself more when I was young.

Tristan
00:30:25
And we will not have that regret.

Tristan
00:30:27
We go to the store.

Tristan
00:30:28
He has his budget of 24.

Tristan
00:30:30
He can pick out whatever outfit he wants in Target.

Tristan
00:30:34
If it's a dress, fine.

Tristan
00:30:36
And if it's a fireman's costume, fine.

Tristan
00:30:39
You know, like, whatever, whatever.

Tristan
00:30:41
And we want him to be free from the pressures that we feel ourselves are under in terms of having to prove ourselves and demonstrate heteronormativity through our children.

Heather
00:30:53
And what a beautiful, beautiful thing that you're doing.

Heather
00:30:57
Because you are.

Heather
00:30:59
I really admire and respect how you both are kind of coming up against, you know, you're recognizing these things within you that are uncomfortable or that you're seeing out in the world that are uncomfortable.

Heather
00:31:13
And you're saying, okay, I see you, and I'm still.

Heather
00:31:17
I'm leaning in.

Heather
00:31:18
We're doing this, and I'm gonna just.

Heather
00:31:22
That is what great modeling.

Heather
00:31:25
I mean, not only for your kids, but for every single person listening, every single person who comes into contact with you.

Tristan
00:31:33
And we have extraordinary privilege because our family is legally protected.

Tristan
00:31:38
Right.

Tristan
00:31:39
Our older kids.

Tristan
00:31:40
There's an adoption.

Tristan
00:31:41
Adoption is forever.

Tristan
00:31:42
Leo is genetically both of our children.

Tristan
00:31:44
No one can come for him.

Heather
00:31:46
Right.

Tristan
00:31:47
Oregon.

Tristan
00:31:48
Where it's not against the law to let our kids cut their hair or grow their hair out or wear dresses where the kids can go to school and they're not going to be sent home, you know, because they're not, quote, unquote, appropriately gendered.

Tristan
00:32:04
You know, that's a lot of privilege.

Tristan
00:32:06
And we've got the grandparents whose love and support of our family is not conditional upon our kids being, again, like, what?

Tristan
00:32:13
Unquote appropriately gendered.

Tristan
00:32:14
You know, there's a lot of privilege built into that, and we really understand that as well.

Heather
00:32:20
Yeah.

Heather
00:32:21
Wow.

Tristan
00:32:21
Not everyone has those options.

Heather
00:32:23
No, they don't.

Heather
00:32:24
And.

Heather
00:32:26
But it's so good.

Heather
00:32:27
I mean, I think the more that you and people like you speak up and speak out and share, that's how these things change.

Heather
00:32:35
Right.

Heather
00:32:36
And.

Heather
00:32:37
And that privilege does extend to people in more and more places.

Heather
00:32:42
I mean, that's.

Heather
00:32:43
That's the hope, that's the.

Heather
00:32:45
The fight.

Heather
00:32:46
And again, like, that's why, circling back to.

Heather
00:32:49
These are human beings.

Heather
00:32:50
Like, we're not talking about, like, this.

Heather
00:32:54
These are human beings.

Tristan
00:32:56
Yeah.

Tristan
00:32:56
I mean, I heard a great interview recently with Marlon Wayans, who I guess is a trans kid, which I just found out about two weeks ago.

Tristan
00:33:05
And, you know, he said, of course, like, when you have kids, you, like, want them to be successful, you want them to have a life of meaning, you want them to be happy.

Tristan
00:33:16
But for him, as the parent of a trans youth, what he found is actually a greater wish for his children is that he wishes them to be free.

Heather
00:33:27
Oh, I love that.

Heather
00:33:29
Ah, yeah, right.

Tristan
00:33:32
And I think that's really what I'm thinking about is whether it's Leo being able to wear a dress if he wants, or Sully being able to change her name and change her pronouns and then change it back.

Tristan
00:33:45
Like, to me, that's liberation.

Tristan
00:33:48
That's what I want for my kids, is that they can be free to figure that out without me putting my rigid ideas and expectations and internalized transphobia and, you know, external pressures onto that, that they get to figure that out for themselves.

Tristan
00:34:06
Yeah.

Tristan
00:34:06
So I thought that was really powerful.

Tristan
00:34:07
And it hit me.

Heather
00:34:10
Oh, my goodness.

Heather
00:34:12
I mean, truly.

Heather
00:34:14
So beautiful.

Heather
00:34:16
Wow.

Heather
00:34:18
Yes.

Heather
00:34:18
And it's possible.

Heather
00:34:19
I mean, there.

Heather
00:34:20
There's a lot that needs to be that we all need to unlearn a lot.

Tristan
00:34:29
And he talks about privilege as well.

Tristan
00:34:30
You know, he's basically said, I'm rich enough.

Heather
00:34:33
Right.

Tristan
00:34:34
Like, I don't care what the right has to say.

Tristan
00:34:36
I don't care what, you know, anti trans people have to say.

Tristan
00:34:40
I'm rich enough.

Tristan
00:34:41
Cancel me.

Tristan
00:34:42
Go ahead, try.

Heather
00:34:44
Right, exactly.

Heather
00:34:45
Well, and that's it.

Heather
00:34:46
And again, I think recognizing the privilege is so important in that equation because it's saying, yeah, I get why I'm able to do this, and I'm going to keep doing it so that people who perhaps aren't in my position of privilege are then able to have what I have.

Heather
00:35:06
Right.

Heather
00:35:08
So that's, you know, and that happens in all kinds of.

Heather
00:35:12
Oh, in all ways.

Heather
00:35:14
Right.

Heather
00:35:15
So I do appreciate that so much.

Heather
00:35:18
And I.

Heather
00:35:18
And I think too, I'd love to just talk a little bit more because I'm just.

Heather
00:35:22
This was the.

Heather
00:35:23
When you reached out to me, this is what kind of struck me was this discussion of fluidity, because this is something that comes up a lot when I work with parents and conversations of just not understanding it.

Heather
00:35:43
And I've kind of run out of ways to explain it.

Heather
00:35:48
So I'm wondering if you could really give, like, your thoughts and your take on it and how we can best embrace it.

Tristan
00:35:59
Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any magical way of explaining it.

Tristan
00:36:04
Sometimes what Comes up for me is if you.

Tristan
00:36:09
I feel like if we had tried to discourage Sully from changing her name and cutting her hair and going by different pronouns, I feel like that would have made things worse.

Tristan
00:36:24
I feel like the second you tell a kid, no, you cannot be that, that becomes their obsession.

Tristan
00:36:31
And then would Sully have been doing things in secret?

Tristan
00:36:36
Would she have become so convinced that she actually was trans just because there was no place to put that desire to explore things, you know, there's no place to.

Tristan
00:36:47
To put it and let it out and let it kind of run its course.

Tristan
00:36:51
That.

Tristan
00:36:51
Would it have curdled, you know?

Heather
00:36:53
Right.

Tristan
00:36:54
So sometimes I'm just like, look, lesser of two evils.

Tristan
00:36:57
Just let them do it and figure it out.

Heather
00:37:00
Right?

Tristan
00:37:00
Because if you don't, who knows what's going to happen, you know, I mean, I.

Tristan
00:37:06
It's so funny.

Tristan
00:37:06
It's the.

Tristan
00:37:07
The worst analogy, and it's imperfect at best.

Tristan
00:37:10
But when I was a kid, I was really interested in theater and performing, and my mom used to say that to me as like, okay, I'm going to let you do acting.

Tristan
00:37:18
Hopefully you get it out of your system.

Tristan
00:37:21
Right?

Tristan
00:37:22
Maybe you're just letting your kid get it out of their system, you know, and maybe for the short term, that's how you can think of it.

Tristan
00:37:28
But we know the second we tell a kid, no, you can't learn how to skateboard, that becomes the thing that.

Heather
00:37:35
They'Re obsessed with, right?

Tristan
00:37:37
Just let them learn how to skateboard, they're going to get hurt, realize it's not actually all that fun, and then stop doing it.

Tristan
00:37:45
Or maybe they become a pro skateboarder.

Tristan
00:37:48
Great.

Tristan
00:37:48
You know what I mean?

Tristan
00:37:49
Like, just let them figure it out.

Tristan
00:37:52
And to me, the stakes, they feel high.

Tristan
00:37:55
They're actually not that high.

Tristan
00:37:57
You're.

Tristan
00:37:58
You know, there's just nothing to suggest that your kid is going to be permanently injured by letting them cut their hair or grow their hair out or wear a bow to school.

Tristan
00:38:08
Or like, just like, at worst, the kids are going to make fun of them and they will learn about adapting, about code switching.

Tristan
00:38:17
And I do that with Leo.

Tristan
00:38:18
He's only six.

Tristan
00:38:19
And I say, sweetheart, I'm so excited for you to wear a dress to school today.

Tristan
00:38:23
Remember that not everyone thinks that boys should wear dresses.

Tristan
00:38:27
And you get to choose if you wear a dress.

Tristan
00:38:30
Some kids might say, well, are you a boy or a girl?

Tristan
00:38:33
And you'll have to answer that question.

Tristan
00:38:33
Question.

Tristan
00:38:34
Some kids might say, boys aren't supposed to do that.

Tristan
00:38:38
And you'll have to figure that out.

Tristan
00:38:39
Like, how do you want to have that conversation?

Tristan
00:38:41
Or you can choose not to wear a dress.

Tristan
00:38:42
And you don't have.

Tristan
00:38:44
Have to have any of those conversations at all.

Heather
00:38:45
You choose six.

Tristan
00:38:47
And he can totally handle that.

Tristan
00:38:49
He's like, I don't care what they say.

Tristan
00:38:50
Okay.

Tristan
00:38:51
Or he'll say, I don't feel like having those conversations today.

Tristan
00:38:55
I'll just wear the pants.

Tristan
00:38:56
All right.

Heather
00:38:57
Right.

Tristan
00:38:58
Like, what harm has befallen him?

Tristan
00:39:00
None.

Tristan
00:39:01
He's fine.

Heather
00:39:03
Exactly.

Heather
00:39:04
Well, and I mean, not only no harm, he's learned really valuable life skills.

Heather
00:39:11
Right.

Heather
00:39:12
I mean, I think learning that we have choices, that it alone is a huge thing, because I think a lot of young people don't realize that they have choices.

Heather
00:39:23
A lot of adults don't realize that they have choices.

Heather
00:39:27
Right.

Heather
00:39:27
And so I think that's such a gift to say, here are your choice.

Heather
00:39:32
You have choices, and you have the freedom to make these choices.

Heather
00:39:37
And here are some of the outcomes you may encounter when you make each of these choices.

Tristan
00:39:44
Yeah.

Tristan
00:39:44
And you get to choose.

Tristan
00:39:45
And sometimes you're going to say, I want to take off.

Tristan
00:39:49
Like my.

Tristan
00:39:49
I have a friend who lives in a much more conservative area than we do, and her.

Tristan
00:39:54
Our kids are friends.

Tristan
00:39:54
That's part of how we know each other.

Tristan
00:39:56
And her son loves to wear nail polish like his mom on the weekends, and then on Sunday night, he takes it off before he goes to school on Monday because he doesn't want the kids teasing him.

Tristan
00:40:07
Okay.

Tristan
00:40:07
That's his choice.

Tristan
00:40:08
But she lets him choose.

Tristan
00:40:10
It's not.

Tristan
00:40:11
Well, don't let them tell you what to do.

Tristan
00:40:14
No.

Tristan
00:40:15
You know, and it's not.

Tristan
00:40:16
You have to take it off so you don't get teased.

Tristan
00:40:18
No, you give them the information.

Tristan
00:40:19
You empower them to make a decision, and they live with the decision that they made.

Heather
00:40:24
Exactly.

Tristan
00:40:24
And then they can make a different decision tomorrow.

Heather
00:40:26
Correct.

Heather
00:40:28
Correct.

Heather
00:40:28
But holy cow, is that such a powerful.

Heather
00:40:32
Again, modeling of choices and decision making and critical thinking skills.

Heather
00:40:38
I mean, all of these things that we want our kids to have, all while, you know, also demonstrating that we love you for who you are.

Tristan
00:40:50
Like, yeah, you're always you.

Heather
00:40:52
You're always you.

Tristan
00:40:53
What's most important is you show up authentically as yourself, and that can have lots of different settings.

Heather
00:40:59
Correct?

Heather
00:41:00
Correct.

Heather
00:41:01
So I just want to say for everyone out there, because I.

Heather
00:41:05
And I know that I can actually include myself in this as well.

Heather
00:41:10
For those who have felt like they needed to hang on to the.

Heather
00:41:15
My child has come out as fill in the blank, and I can't let that go.

Heather
00:41:21
That's where.

Heather
00:41:22
That's what I'm holding on to.

Heather
00:41:23
That's what I'm learning about.

Heather
00:41:24
That's what I'm defending.

Heather
00:41:26
That's.

Heather
00:41:26
That's where I am.

Heather
00:41:28
I get that.

Heather
00:41:30
And I think this is such a powerful, powerful conversation to help support us and support so many through, you know, this just learning.

Heather
00:41:42
This is just another level of education of empowerment.

Heather
00:41:49
Right.

Heather
00:41:50
So thank you.

Heather
00:41:51
That is incredibly valuable as well as how to take this out into the world.

Heather
00:42:00
Right?

Heather
00:42:00
Like what.

Heather
00:42:01
How to handle.

Heather
00:42:02
Because I think one of the bigger fears, and I speak for myself, but I know a lot of other people feel this way or have felt this way is the.

Heather
00:42:12
What do you do when people come at you?

Heather
00:42:13
Right?

Heather
00:42:14
Like, how do you.

Heather
00:42:14
What do you say?

Tristan
00:42:16
Yeah.

Heather
00:42:17
So thank you.

Heather
00:42:18
I mean, this is so incredibly, incredibly just helpful and enlightening, and I really appreciate it.

Heather
00:42:31
I really appreciate you sharing and giving everyone permission.

Heather
00:42:34
Right?

Heather
00:42:35
All of us, you know, everyone permission to say, okay, this is.

Heather
00:42:39
Yes, this is okay.

Heather
00:42:40
We don't have to be so uptight about this.

Heather
00:42:41
We don't have to be so afraid of what if.

Heather
00:42:44
What if this is all wrong?

Tristan
00:42:47
Yeah, absolutely.

Tristan
00:42:49
The.

Tristan
00:42:49
When someone comes at you, the more you can agree with them, the sort of less rigid they become.

Tristan
00:42:55
You know, if someone's like, well, what if it's a face?

Tristan
00:42:57
Yeah, it might be.

Heather
00:42:58
Right.

Tristan
00:43:00
Well, what if he gets bullied at school?

Tristan
00:43:01
Yeah, he might get bullied at school for sure.

Tristan
00:43:03
That is something I'm really worried about too, you know, as.

Tristan
00:43:07
As much as you can position yourself.

Tristan
00:43:09
Not as, you know, we're, you know, pro and anti, but more, we both really love and care for this kid and want the best for them.

Tristan
00:43:18
Let's talk about how we can do that.

Tristan
00:43:20
I think it's going to turn out a little better.

Heather
00:43:23
Oh, okay.

Heather
00:43:24
So if you are feeling like that head exploding emoji, you are not alone.

Heather
00:43:30
I want you to take a few moments to sit in whatever you're feeling right now, to take a deep breath, to consider the phrase, all of life is on a continuum.

Heather
00:43:45
And it has been since the beginning of time.

Heather
00:43:49
This conversation with Tristan really helped me explore areas where I subconsciously and consciously still want to check a box and to really think about why that is.

Heather
00:44:04
The process of unlearning and learning is not linear.

Heather
00:44:10
It's like a wave of contractions and expansions.

Heather
00:44:15
And this was definitely a contraction for me initially, but as I sat with all of that discomfort, which, let's be honest, is so annoying, right?

Heather
00:44:31
But as I sat with that I began to face the old programming like another layer of that old programming that I thought I had gotten finished with, that I was done with, right, That I had worked through and healed from.

Heather
00:44:46
Now there was another layer of that and another layer of those fears and they just began to kind of pop up one by one and this time I could see them a little bit more clearly and it helped me loosen the idea, the vice grip that I had on on those specific ideas and allow expansion right like that next peeling away however you want to think about it, leveling up, opening up, expanding, whatever you know works best, however you imagine this to work in your brain even when we're unsure, allowing space for others thoughts and ideas can bring profound growth within us.

Heather
00:45:35
I invite you to take some time today and see what comes up for you, and I'd really love to hear about it.

Heather
00:45:42
Until next time.

Heather
00:45:45
Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather
00:45:48
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

Heather
00:45:53
For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather
00:46:08
Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather
00:46:14
And remember to just breathe.

Heather
00:46:17
Until next time.