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00:00:25.929Hello, everyone.
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00:00:31.050Welcome to another episode of Opscast, brought to you by MarkingOps.com, powered by all the MoPros out there.
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00:00:37.609I'm your host, Michael Hartman, with the first one we're recording in 2026, which is hard to believe.
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00:00:40.329So thanks to everyone for the that.
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00:00:44.730We'll be talking about our five-year anniversary soon, too.
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00:00:53.609So, anyway, to get things kicked off, today's conversation uh challenges a deeply held assumption that marketing should live in its own lane.
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00:01:05.689Uh, I guess today, Ivalise Arroyo is a marketing operations leader, executive advisor on Go to Market Operations, who has made it her mission to bridge marketing ops, RevOps, and broader business operations.
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00:01:10.569She has a background in accounting and deep experience in manufacturing and healthcare insurance.
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00:01:17.849She approaches marketing from a business first perspective, one that connects sales, marketing, payments, onboarding, and operations into a single system.
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00:01:28.010We're going to explore what it would look like if marketing were more embedded throughout an organization, not as a service department or cost centers, so people call it, but as a core business capability.
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00:01:33.290So, Evelise, welcome to the show and thanks for joining for the first time for have someone from the Caribbean.
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00:01:35.849I'm so excited to be the first one.
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00:01:38.170Thank you so much for having me, Michael.
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00:01:38.570Yeah.
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00:01:39.210How do I do that?
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00:01:41.049I get your names pronounced right.
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00:01:42.810You got it perfect.
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00:01:43.609All right.
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00:01:52.650So well, anyway, well, hey, thanks for joining again.
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00:01:55.210Um, all right, so let's just dive right in.
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00:02:06.250So you have you've described when we talked before that connecting marketing ops and business ops is a mission, kind of mission critical, I think, is the way maybe you think about it, not just a service.
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00:02:08.969So, where did that idea come from for you?
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00:02:14.250And how did your background in accounting shape that perspective?
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00:02:24.250Well, that came from it's not as far as what we know about business engineering um or business engineering management.
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00:02:28.730It's very similar, the the base concept.
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00:02:32.250So it's not that far of what we already know.
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00:02:39.370Um and it came up because when I started marketing, I started as a content marketer.
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00:02:44.969Um, very far away of administration, accounting, and any of it.
00:02:45.449 -->
00:02:47.930Doesn't everyone go from accounting to content?
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00:02:49.530Right?
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00:02:51.610I think it's a thing.
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00:02:53.449It is now.
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00:02:55.289Yes, it is now.
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00:03:08.009Um, so like a few years after, I um went myself to work as a consultant in marketing specifically.
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00:03:14.650And then my first client happened to be a manufacturing company.
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00:03:34.569And the first thing I noticed within this first six months with them is that my work as a marketer was very difficult because customers were coming to social media to complain of things that were happening in the operations of the business.
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00:03:38.810So it was hard for them to keep up with the calls.
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00:03:48.650I mean, marketing was doing their job, everything was going great, but when the customer started to make the calls, it was swamped.
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00:03:51.210The salespeople were swamped.
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00:03:55.610Um phone lines were busy.
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00:03:59.530So that became a huge problem, but a good problem, right?
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00:04:00.650Good problem, yeah.
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00:04:02.490Exactly.
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00:04:16.409So um I said, listen, I know you hired me for this specific role, but I think that if we don't fix this, we will have problems to deliver what you want me to do, right?
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00:04:23.930So um I came up with a solution, and that's where I stumbled upon marketing operations.
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00:04:25.689Ah, okay.
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00:04:28.810So that's where it all started.
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00:04:48.090So I built a system around it to make sure that customers not only were able to receive what they needed by call, but also by online, and I mean online by their website, but also in social media.
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00:04:51.529So that became a huge help.
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00:04:54.889So do they so they had different ways of connecting?
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00:05:02.009So you I assume that what you're saying is you were doing marketing activity, so you were doing out outbound activity or promotional stuff.
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00:05:02.570Correct.
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00:05:06.090And the response mechanism was place a call.
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00:05:10.490And so you helped define other channels for them to respond.
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00:05:12.250Is that correct?
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00:05:12.809Yes.
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00:05:24.809By that time, I remember that Apple um they launched a newly um service online for the customers, and that's where I got the idea.
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00:05:28.490Then why don't we do the same thing for customers?
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00:05:46.889Which so my I have my experience working with Latin America and Caribbean uh entities is limited, but I did I feel like I do remember that phone like phone is a very very much a de facto way of communicating, right?
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00:05:48.330As opposed to online or hat.
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00:05:51.529It was uh back when I was doing it, probably 10 plus.
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00:06:07.129Yeah, for this for this client specifically in manufacturing, it was phone because most of their ICP um customer is um uh elderly people.
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00:06:12.889Okay, so when your customer is elderly, it's more common, you know, to use phone.
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00:06:25.370Okay, but we also had clients that were more into um online or mobile, so we moved those clients to mobile with this initiative.
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00:06:26.169Got it.
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00:06:27.769Okay, that makes sense.
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00:06:28.889Cool.
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00:06:33.370So you said that you stumbled, that's how you stumbled on marketing ops, right?
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00:06:39.610So this is maybe early days of marketing ops being a thing, RevOps was common.
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00:06:44.490So no, I didn't know it was a thing.
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00:06:52.809I just started working doing that, and I discovered it was marketing operations like five years later.
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00:06:58.250How did you discover marketing apps at that point?
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00:07:21.129On LinkedIn, I didn't use LinkedIn as a you know big user, and I started to connect with marketers, and then one day, all of a sudden, the topic came up and I was wait, so that's the main for what I've been doing all these years, and that's how I discovered marketing operations and the rest is history.
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00:07:29.450Okay, so a lot of this stuff you were doing was before, well, maybe not before it was a common term, but certainly before you knew what it was.
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00:07:37.210So specifically here where I live, is it's not a common term, so for me it was really new.
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00:07:45.929I mean, what I didn't know what I was doing existed, and I was like, why things are not X or Y and C?
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00:07:54.009If that's it made so much sense to make the connections between the operations and marketing.
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00:07:59.450And then I discovered that was a thing in US and in um Europe.
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00:08:00.490Yes.
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00:08:03.610And I would in Asia fascinating with it.
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00:08:04.649Yeah.
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00:08:14.730Um, so what like okay, so I get the um the response mechanism for campaign activity makes sense.
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00:08:23.610What it sounded like there were other things you were connecting the dots on, because you said operations, so I'm assuming things like you know, fulfillment or payment process.
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00:08:26.889Like, what were some of the other things that you were trying to help connect the dots on?
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00:08:35.850The sales, the sales part of it, it was not connected, there were not a handoff for it at the time.
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00:08:43.049So um they um relied mostly on those goals.
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00:08:45.850I mean, that was it.
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00:08:54.169And um, when I brought up the idea, I was really, really lucky to have a very open CEO.
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00:09:04.809Uh this this was a woman-owned business, and she was very open to innovation and to changes and to new things to make sure that the business grew.
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00:09:13.049So I became with the idea, I built the framework, and she said okay, and we started it.
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00:09:30.490And that helped a lot, not only to fix the problem, but also the brand perception in the customer's eyes, because we even had to close the review in Facebook, for example, because people were angry.
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00:09:31.449Oh, sure.
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00:09:43.610We had to bring up our PR team to take care of that, you know, do like a crisis management um thing because it was here.
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00:09:57.449So businesses they treat marketing without having in mind the consequences of not having a framework that is connected to the operations.
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00:10:08.329And I think that um we see I have seen that more now, but where I live, where I live is not common here in Puerto Rico.
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00:10:17.610It's it's not a common thing, it's not something that is um taught to business people, so it's a huge challenge.
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00:10:23.129So when you you mentioned the framework a couple of times, so what were some of the elements of this framework that you proposed?
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00:10:41.049And then um what I guess I'm also curious, did it because you said you went to the CEO, uh, and I would assume you needed approval of okay, her to agree to just for change, but were there also costs associated with implementing that framework?
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00:10:45.449Well, cost was is always a a thing in businesses.
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00:11:04.970So um to lower the cost, I made sure that I added to my services to help them um um provide customer service online, which was something that they were not used to do, right?
00:11:04.970 -->
00:11:07.449Or they didn't know how to.
00:11:07.449 -->
00:11:24.009So we took that part um for them, and we um they provided us with access to their customer platform, and we were able to help um customers online, okay, chatting with them directly.
00:11:24.009 -->
00:11:26.970Okay, give me your your order number.
00:11:26.970 -->
00:11:28.809Let's see what's going on.
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00:11:42.329Um, so that's how I did it, and whatever needed the sales people help, I did the handoff, or my team did the handoff directly um with them using email.
00:11:42.329 -->
00:11:47.689So we built like uh like a framework where, okay, if this happens, let's do this.
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00:11:49.529If this happens, let's do this.
00:11:49.529 -->
00:11:54.649So I built something simple for them to understand how it would work.
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00:12:04.250And they approved it, they gave us the access, and we were able to mitigate that um small crisis we entered with marketing.
00:12:04.649 -->
00:12:11.529So the but the crisis was you actually generated so much response that you weren't ready to handle it.
00:12:11.850 -->
00:12:12.329Correct.
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00:12:12.889They were not.
00:12:13.689 -->
00:12:25.689The way that you were typically said, which sounds like you what you had was a you know, maybe a person or a couple people who answered incoming calls and they just became inundated.
00:12:25.689 -->
00:12:28.970Is that kind of the what this the gist of it?
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00:12:32.169Yeah, we well, they they took care of calls.
00:12:32.169 -->
00:12:35.529We never touch a phone um for them.
00:12:35.529 -->
00:12:42.970We only took care of um clients on Instagram, Facebook, inboxes.
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00:12:44.970That's what we did for them.
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00:12:48.089All the mobile customers, we took them.
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00:13:02.329I also um we also um recorded a more efficient um calling recording when people called to the company, hey, press one for this, press two for this.
00:13:02.329 -->
00:13:20.730So we also included exactly a better um um communication with the customer so they knew we were busy, to be patient, because and that helped so much, you know, to to build all those pieces.
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00:13:32.809Sometimes this is a thing that um small things are not important, but the customer, you gain customers and you retain them with the small things.
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00:13:33.689Yeah.
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00:13:40.250I I said for a brief period of my well, part of my career, I had under marketing ops, which was a little unusual.
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00:13:44.649I had a small inbound sale BDR SDR team.
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00:13:55.449And in this particular business, we had local regional offices, and in some cases we could kind of how far could we could extend out to deliver services varied.
00:13:55.449 -->
00:14:02.970In some cases, some would call for one of those places that was near, but not near enough for us to be able to do it, or we didn't have the capacity.
00:14:02.970 -->
00:14:10.970And I always worked with the local teams who said if we can if we can't help them, do you can can we provide them somebody else that could to go to?
00:14:10.970 -->
00:14:11.289Right?
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00:14:20.409Because my view was eventually if they get a good, like even if we just provide a good referral and they get a good experience, they that will be something they remember and come back to us about, right?
00:14:20.409 -->
00:14:26.250Definitely it will so when they when the time comes that they've got a bigger project, or it's in the market where we can help them.
00:14:26.250 -->
00:14:32.009So that's the kind of thing, like that that I think you're building goodwill and trust.
00:14:32.329 -->
00:14:32.970Exactly.
00:14:32.970 -->
00:14:43.370And here in my market, here the referral is really, really um heavy when to do business.
00:14:43.370 -->
00:15:00.569Um it's less of um initiative to let me just find no, it's more of referring, so making sure to, you know, um the word of mouth, it's good.
00:15:00.569 -->
00:15:02.250That's a top always.
00:15:02.490 -->
00:15:04.649I mean, reputation is so important on that kind of stuff.
00:15:04.649 -->
00:15:05.929Definitely, yes.
00:15:05.929 -->
00:15:15.529So when I introduced you, we talked about that you've worked uh with and you mentioned this one with marketing with a manufacturing organization, but you've also worked with healthcare.
00:15:15.529 -->
00:15:24.569So I'm curious, in in those two domains, you know, what are you like what are the common silos you've seen across businesses in those industries?
00:15:24.569 -->
00:15:32.889And then in particular, uh I'm I'm can we've had a guest on recently who's worked in like highly what we call highly regulated industries.
00:15:32.889 -->
00:15:36.169So I think insurance is falls in that category for sure.
00:15:36.169 -->
00:15:38.730Manufacturing depends on what it is, I suppose.
00:15:38.730 -->
00:15:44.169But like what are you seeing things that are unique to those kind of businesses as well?
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00:15:59.209Yes, the um unique thing about um insurance, same as healthcare, that I've worked also on as an overall industry, it's data governance.
00:15:59.209 -->
00:16:15.769Um, that's very um important when you do marketing on how you collect the data, um, how much of the data you can collect, who is going to take care of that data, and who will have to?
00:16:15.769 -->
00:16:21.049Yeah, that's very, very um sensitive for that.
00:16:21.370 -->
00:16:22.809I'm just curious, so I don't because I don't know.
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00:16:29.529Is it similar in Puerto Rico as it is in say the US or is it more like uh Europe?
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00:16:43.529Similar in which way, though, like the the level of um uh restrictions on access, you know, collection and access to data.
00:16:43.529 -->
00:16:44.569Is it yes?
00:16:44.809 -->
00:16:50.970Because Puerto Rico is regulated by um federal law.
00:16:50.970 -->
00:16:52.889So US from US.
00:16:53.529 -->
00:16:53.689Okay.
00:16:54.089 -->
00:17:02.409US federal law, so we need to follow the same um protocols for data governance in healthcare.
00:17:02.409 -->
00:17:05.690Yeah, that's that's a okay, very important thing.
00:17:06.089 -->
00:17:10.890Yeah, so that makes sense because you got all the it was a HIPAA requirements, right?
00:17:11.610 -->
00:17:12.890Yes, all that.
00:17:12.890 -->
00:17:16.089Okay, yes, we are liable for that.
00:17:16.089 -->
00:17:22.329Every business that does um healthcare business in any way, they need to have that.
00:17:22.329 -->
00:17:30.730Also, financial institutions, um, which falls into that same um category.
00:17:31.210 -->
00:17:33.609Yeah, yeah, we had somebody in that space too.
00:17:33.609 -->
00:17:45.690And um the takeaway I had was yeah, if you're in marketing or marketing apps, you need to become really good friends with your legal team because they had to review everything before it went out.
00:17:45.690 -->
00:17:46.490Correct.
00:17:46.490 -->
00:18:00.410And that was uh I could see how that could slow things down quite a bit, but yeah, I think legal and your IT team, just keep them as bring them coffee, treat them nice, you know.
00:18:00.410 -->
00:18:01.529He does.
00:18:01.529 -->
00:18:05.529What so what are what were some of the other silos you've seen in like manufacturing?
00:18:05.529 -->
00:18:16.649I mean, you gave that one example where it's not like yeah, marketing was doing one thing, sales team was doing another thing, and then so the other part of the business operations of fulfillment was there wasn't a lot of alignment.
00:18:16.649 -->
00:18:21.210Is that the common theme, or is there other stuff you see?
00:18:21.690 -->
00:18:25.609Well, sales is sales and marketing is always a theme.
00:18:25.609 -->
00:18:30.569Um, how separate they they can be or they can get.
00:18:30.569 -->
00:18:46.089Um, where there when there is no handoff um process where SLAs are not um put in place, that becomes a huge challenge to the outcome of marketing.
00:18:46.089 -->
00:18:51.129But that also falls into again the operation, the foundation.
00:18:51.129 -->
00:18:57.690How do you build your GTM system in order to make sense?
00:18:57.690 -->
00:19:14.569Because um one of the is not the misconceptions of businesses is that they think that finance has nothing to do with marketing, that operation has nothing to do with marketing or HR.
00:19:14.569 -->
00:19:18.009And that's a really huge misconception.
00:19:18.009 -->
00:19:25.690I think all the business should be should have marketing at the center along with the customer.
00:19:25.690 -->
00:19:45.369Marketing should be like the main function in the middle that helps the entire business finance, HR, um everyone, um, and help them navigate the GTM strategy.
00:19:45.369 -->
00:19:52.009Um and everyone will speak the same language, which is the final goal.
00:19:52.009 -->
00:20:01.289If we speak the same language, we get the data we need, we can make the decisions that we need to make with the yeah, you know.
00:20:01.289 -->
00:20:09.289So um I think that for me, that has been the biggest frustration.
00:20:09.289 -->
00:20:14.009But it's because I see the business differently than a marketer.
00:20:14.009 -->
00:20:17.769I'm not a marketer first, I'm an accountant first.
00:20:17.769 -->
00:20:31.769So I see the business differently, and rather than seeing marketing as The promotion part of the business, I see how it can make us grow in terms of revenue.
00:20:31.769 -->
00:20:34.089How you know it's very different.
00:20:34.089 -->
00:20:40.889I I don't see marketing as um the vanity metrics.
00:20:40.889 -->
00:20:42.730For me, that's not important.
00:20:42.730 -->
00:20:49.849I can have five followers, but if those five followers make me $1,000, that's what I need to know.
00:20:50.089 -->
00:20:50.410Yeah.
00:20:50.410 -->
00:20:50.970Right.
00:20:50.970 -->
00:20:52.170No, totally.
00:20:52.170 -->
00:21:06.170So this idea of marketing being embedded, you you mentioned when we talked before Peter uh an idea for Peter Drucker, which I full transparency I have not gone to dig into, but you said there's he had an idea of that marketing should be embedded in the business.
00:21:06.170 -->
00:21:07.289Is that kind of what you're talking about?
00:21:07.450 -->
00:21:13.049And not treated as well that it should be embedded, that's something that I always say.
00:21:13.049 -->
00:21:23.289What he said that the bit the business is marketing is the business scene from the customer perspective.
00:21:23.289 -->
00:21:49.769So marketing actually how we speak to our customers, how we do the enablement to our internal customers, how we treat our internal customers, um, how we speak about our business in social media, everything is connected to marketing because everything is a strategy, it's our go-to-market strategy.
00:21:49.769 -->
00:21:59.930So if we all speak the same language, then the awareness gets done, but also sales will um increase.
00:21:59.930 -->
00:22:09.609But that cannot be done if you don't have the marketing technology to as the engine to boost that um voice of the brand.
00:22:09.609 -->
00:22:16.329So nothing is divided, nothing is silent, everything should be connected.
00:22:17.369 -->
00:22:22.490So you you brought up external customers and internal customers.
00:22:22.490 -->
00:22:27.769If you if anybody's listening to this knows, like I bristle at the turn, term in internal customers.
00:22:27.769 -->
00:22:29.289I I understand the sentiment.
00:22:29.289 -->
00:22:30.649I don't love the term.
00:22:30.649 -->
00:22:52.329Um the whole story behind that, uh, which I don't want to get into, but um you talked about how that changes the way, like how does how does that uh like come to life in terms of how it impacts how you talked about speaking the same language, uh, which I do think is critical.
00:22:52.329 -->
00:23:01.849How do you see how have you seen that like where organizations have take kind of taken to heart this idea of marketing as a core function is embedded within the rest of the business?
00:23:01.849 -->
00:23:10.009How have you seen that translate into actual changes in the way that you're communicating, both with I'll call it real customers and customers?
00:23:10.889 -->
00:23:13.529Um, I will answer this with an example.
00:23:13.529 -->
00:23:19.849I worked for a technology company for I think it was for five to six months.
00:23:19.849 -->
00:23:30.730I used to work for a for an advertising agency, and this um technology business was my assigned client.
00:23:30.730 -->
00:23:43.289Um, so the challenge that they had, which is the reason they brought me in, is that they wanted to increase the brand awareness for for their teams.
00:23:43.289 -->
00:23:44.730I mean, internally.
00:23:44.730 -->
00:23:53.930So they wanted to um rather than mark do marketing externally, they wanted to do marketing internally.
00:23:54.170 -->
00:23:56.170Okay, like it's communication stuff.
00:23:56.170 -->
00:23:57.450Okay, correct.
00:23:57.690 -->
00:24:00.649So that became my main job with them.
00:24:00.649 -->
00:24:12.809Um, so precisely was to increase the awareness of the brand for the new hires, for the old folks, everyone.
00:24:12.809 -->
00:24:29.690Um so when they had the meetings with the clients externally, which were frequent, they felt pride of their brand and how they treated them, they paid them well.
00:24:29.690 -->
00:24:37.210Um, they were really um relatable with with um the employees.
00:24:37.210 -->
00:24:46.089So they made sure that human resources had the resources in order to get that done.
00:24:46.089 -->
00:24:50.009But human resources was a partner with marketing.
00:24:50.009 -->
00:24:53.129So that was amazing.
00:24:53.129 -->
00:25:06.569We did, I was able to do even a um these events that are done by Apple every time that they do a huge um virtual event.
00:25:06.569 -->
00:25:11.690Yeah, we did that for them, and it was a huge success.
00:25:11.690 -->
00:25:16.730They loved it, they were included, they were able to speak about their experience.
00:25:16.730 -->
00:25:22.410We discussed the OKRs in that event and how successful they they were.
00:25:22.410 -->
00:25:35.609So when customers were helped in the external world, customers were happy, they were pleased with the services and how um good they were with them.
00:25:35.609 -->
00:25:39.049So I did does that answer your question?
00:25:39.289 -->
00:25:44.410Yeah, I mean, when I so when I if I some think of it, one of the results there, right?
00:25:44.410 -->
00:25:50.809One is um it it can improve and accelerate onboarding, right, for new employees, understand.
00:25:50.809 -->
00:26:08.809But also then not only that, but because it was rolled out across all the organization, you would also have people not only just having the pride in the the company and the product and service or whatever that they had, but also they're they would be talking about it in similar ways.
00:26:08.809 -->
00:26:12.170Now they might take their own sort of slight variant.
00:26:12.170 -->
00:26:16.410So but it was like there was a consistency that would get get get there.
00:26:16.410 -->
00:26:30.009And then it's interesting the last part about um how that also that that employee orientation also helped affect how they communicated to prospects and customers.
00:26:30.009 -->
00:26:39.369And I immediately thought, because I'm in Dallas of Southwest Airlines, which I don't know that they've continued to hold on to it as well as they had for a long time.
00:26:39.369 -->
00:26:49.609Like a big part of their ethos cultural-wise was to make sure that the people who are frontline talking with customers had a lot of authority to try to make them happy.
00:26:49.609 -->
00:26:54.250And a lot of that it was, I think, probably of a similar vein, right?
00:26:54.250 -->
00:26:55.930There's leans a little bit more.
00:26:56.649 -->
00:27:10.329As someone that worked for Airlines for 10 years, yeah, I can tell you for a fact that I worked for American Airlines and American Eagle, and frontline workers were really important for them.
00:27:10.649 -->
00:27:11.289Absolutely.
00:27:11.609 -->
00:27:18.250Always trained, always studying the new things for the for the customer.
00:27:18.250 -->
00:27:19.369That's huge.
00:27:19.369 -->
00:27:29.289And when you empower your people and they own, they own the brand, that empowers the brand externally.
00:27:29.289 -->
00:27:33.529And that's what customers will um interact with.
00:27:34.170 -->
00:27:35.289Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:35.289 -->
00:27:46.089I mean, that's the that point of interaction is so critical across all the different kinds of ways that happen from marketing to sales, support, collections, right?
00:27:46.089 -->
00:27:47.129All of it.
00:27:47.529 -->
00:27:50.009Every everyone, yes, definitely.
00:27:50.569 -->
00:27:59.690So, okay, so since you know our main audience is marketing ops, rev ops people, you know, kind of two parts to this question, I guess.
00:27:59.690 -->
00:28:09.210One is what what are you seeing that's happening that's where that's being done well from a marketing ops rev ops standpoint where there's some gaps.
00:28:09.210 -->
00:28:23.849And then regardless of that, like what do you think that role should be within an organization for RevOps Marketing Ops to help drive that kind of um you know, marketing as a core part of the business forward?
00:28:25.049 -->
00:28:33.369I think that what we're doing good, and this is from my perspective, um, is building the engine.
00:28:33.369 -->
00:28:39.609Um marketing ops professionals are builders.
00:28:39.609 -->
00:28:43.289Um, so they're great in building the engine.
00:28:43.289 -->
00:29:02.170The challenge that I have faced personally, and I think um many um marketing operations folks can um relate to is keeping up with what we need to do to optimize that engine.
00:29:02.170 -->
00:29:13.450Because you cannot manage the technology plus do the analysis plus do the optimization.
00:29:13.450 -->
00:29:23.289I think that um specializing the industry is a must do.
00:29:23.289 -->
00:29:42.089Um someone taking care of the martech, someone taking care of the analysis of of the data, someone taking care of um making sure the funnels are working, or you know, um, I think that that's for me, that's been a huge challenge.
00:29:42.089 -->
00:29:46.889And so and that affects the outcomes of marketing a lot.
00:29:46.889 -->
00:30:02.170Because when you stay on the on the um surface level, you can you cannot go deeper to see what the customer needs and how you can you know um get them to convert.
00:30:02.170 -->
00:30:03.849That's the huge challenge.
00:30:04.250 -->
00:30:13.210So it's interesting because I think that you what you're describing is you've got limited resources, so you're kind of inherently gonna have to make trade-offs about where you have time.
00:30:14.490 -->
00:30:25.289And and also you you you you cannot pretend to have a creative marketer to also manage the the martech.
00:30:25.769 -->
00:30:29.289Yeah, that's that's a it's a rare combination of skills for sure.
00:30:29.609 -->
00:30:31.529Yeah, it's very separate.
00:30:31.529 -->
00:30:37.049So you you cannot blame marketing that is not using properly the technology.
00:30:37.049 -->
00:30:42.170Perhaps it's not that they need more enablement in order to do it, right?
00:30:42.170 -->
00:30:46.170So those are the main challenges that I have encountered.
00:30:46.569 -->
00:30:50.569So getting into this, maybe this is a good segue into the trade-off conversation.
00:30:50.569 -->
00:31:06.089So one of the things you said to me that is stuck with me, and I'm still not sure I totally buy into it, is that you're seeing more C-suite type people, COOs, CFOs, CEOs, who are becoming more interested in how go to market works, in particular marketing.
00:31:06.089 -->
00:31:11.049I think they probably tend to understand sales better than marketing in most, my experience.
00:31:11.049 -->
00:31:14.889But you see, you're saying you're seeing more interest in understanding how that works.
00:31:14.889 -->
00:31:20.410Like, what do you think like A, what's the evidence you have for that?
00:31:20.410 -->
00:31:35.930I don't know if you want to get any specific examples or anything like that, but in general terms, and then what are you do you think part of this driver is because they've got these limited resources and they and they want to see and hoping to see more from these marketing teams?
00:31:39.690 -->
00:31:43.529I think that it has become a time.
00:31:43.529 -->
00:31:50.809I think we are living in an inflection time that the C suit is pausing.
00:31:50.809 -->
00:31:51.930Like, wait.
00:31:51.930 -->
00:31:57.690We have AI here and we have marketing having challenges.
00:31:57.690 -->
00:32:04.329We need to look more into marketing, and it and I'm not saying that all sea suits are like that.
00:32:04.329 -->
00:32:22.730Um, because you know, I I have encountered sea suit like I just told you, that she's open to innovation, and I have stumbled upon C um CEOs or C-suit people that are, well, we don't want to invest on that, but it's how we deliver the message.
00:32:22.730 -->
00:32:30.250I think that the main challenge for marketing is how they convince the C-suit to look more into them.
00:32:30.250 -->
00:32:41.529And I think that marketers, now that AI is here, it's not going anywhere, quantum technology is knocking the doors also.
00:32:41.529 -->
00:32:57.690We need to, you know, get educated more into business administration, how businesses work, in order for us to have a conversation with C with C-level um people.
00:32:59.129 -->
00:33:01.450Like with an accounting background, you get an advantage.
00:33:01.450 -->
00:33:07.049And so how do you how do you frame those kinds of conversations when you talk to a C C level?
00:33:08.809 -->
00:33:10.889I just go straight to what they want to hear.
00:33:10.889 -->
00:33:16.009They don't want to hear nothing about um vanity metrics.
00:33:16.009 -->
00:33:19.529For them, that's that's nothing.
00:33:19.529 -->
00:33:28.730They just want to know how much money we are gonna make, how much money we're making, and money is the is the topic.
00:33:28.730 -->
00:33:28.970Yeah.
00:33:28.970 -->
00:33:32.329And as an accountant, I can tell you that's the topic.
00:33:32.329 -->
00:33:42.329And what I what I have done with my with the CEOs I have worked with is that I give them what they want.
00:33:42.329 -->
00:33:53.129But I also I am very honest on letting them know what is not working and what is what is needed for things to work.
00:33:53.129 -->
00:34:16.329And if I need to um do a procurement either of uh technology or we need more resources in terms of human resources, I just do a complete um analysis for them and I deliver them the problem with the solution.
00:34:16.329 -->
00:34:24.730That's been the hit for me, and I give them I give this to any marketer that is listening to us right now.
00:34:24.730 -->
00:34:42.250Um and I as an example, I met one CEO and he said, you know that I thought that when I was meeting you, I was going to be faced with a 40-slide presentation of a marketing agency.
00:34:42.250 -->
00:34:46.250And I love that I just went through 15.
00:34:46.250 -->
00:34:52.810And it's precisely because I have worked with so many of them that I know what they want to hear.
00:34:52.810 -->
00:35:04.650Just give me just a bit of who you are, just tell me what is my problem after our first briefing, and tell me what is the solution that you propose.
00:35:04.650 -->
00:35:11.210Tell me how much it's gonna cost, and what is the timeline that you suggest for the product?
00:35:11.530 -->
00:35:13.450How confident are you that we can do it, right?
00:35:13.450 -->
00:35:15.370That's usually a piece of it.
00:35:15.370 -->
00:35:20.890Yes, yeah, just yeah, I'm totally totally on board with that.
00:35:20.890 -->
00:35:22.410I'm just it's just a small nuance.
00:35:22.410 -->
00:35:32.570I'm curious because I think I feel like there's been a shift, particularly in early stage startup type companies, where the focus was very much on top line just revenue growth, right?
00:35:32.570 -->
00:35:39.530So versus where it feels like now it probably should have been more about profitable growth.
00:35:39.530 -->
00:35:40.730So like profit.
00:35:40.730 -->
00:35:52.650So do you when you're talking to the CEOs or C-suites uh about things, would you would it be important for you to understand like what is their driver?
00:35:52.650 -->
00:36:01.290Are they more if they're more focused on driving just top line revenue, sort of at least in the short run, irrespective of of costs, right?
00:36:01.290 -->
00:36:07.930But you would probably go one way versus if they're focused on profit, then you might go another way.
00:36:09.290 -->
00:36:14.970I think that money has one language for the season.
00:36:14.970 -->
00:36:19.930Um, either either we gain money or we lose.
00:36:20.250 -->
00:36:23.210Yeah, so it's more about the state, like that particular thing, right?
00:36:23.210 -->
00:36:26.970Is it's gonna be a net benefit from a financial standpoint.
00:36:27.290 -->
00:36:27.690Correct.
00:36:27.690 -->
00:36:31.690And they also like to know a lot about forecasting.
00:36:31.690 -->
00:36:35.690Hey, how how do you see if we work the market in this way?
00:36:35.690 -->
00:36:40.890How do you see, and then I prepare like a forecast for them as well.
00:36:40.890 -->
00:36:49.769Um, so that's the um that's the good thing about being an accountant.
00:36:49.769 -->
00:37:01.450I also sit with them monthly, quarterly, and annually to analyze how the marketing campaign's expense relates to the profit that we had.
00:37:01.450 -->
00:37:05.050So they send the spreadsheets and I sit with them.
00:37:05.050 -->
00:37:06.810Hey, this is what happened.
00:37:06.810 -->
00:37:16.810You see, when we started this campaign, and I show them the campaign dates or days that we run it and how it translated into money.
00:37:16.810 -->
00:37:21.130So they see that marketing is not just an expense.
00:37:21.130 -->
00:37:29.210You are spending this money, you are investing in your business, but you are um earning this much.
00:37:29.210 -->
00:37:42.170So that conversation, I have it straightforward with them, and they connect me with their finance um people, and they provide all these budges that I need to do the analysis.
00:37:43.769 -->
00:37:48.890It just like literally just popped in my head the idea that if you think about this like an investment, yeah.
00:37:48.890 -->
00:37:52.970If you were talking to a financial advisor, they would go, like, what's your investment horizon?
00:37:52.970 -->
00:37:53.370Right.
00:37:53.370 -->
00:38:22.970So I assume that when you're talking about like we're spent X dollars over this period of time, and then at some point later, right, and depending on what that horizon is that maybe what your sales cycle is or whatever, um you you you're setting the stage to go, like the expectation is not necessarily that you're gonna get the next month, the next day, the next week, whatever, that you're gonna get that benefit right away, but there's some reasonable time frame, and you're showing there that you can connect the dots, even if it's not.
00:38:22.970 -->
00:38:31.850I think the more evidence you have like that, the more you think it's look at it as a causal thing versus a quit, you know.
00:38:31.850 -->
00:38:34.090So right.
00:38:34.410 -->
00:38:56.570Yes, and and also what I do with them that which is the part that they don't know about, I educate them how that translates into how the social media platforms work, either Google Ads or Facebook ads, because they think that by investing X amount, we're done.
00:38:56.570 -->
00:39:04.170When I need to explain to them, hey, this is the amount that you're spending now, but remember they work by reach.
00:39:04.170 -->
00:39:08.730So if you want to reach more people, you need to pay a little bit more.
00:39:08.730 -->
00:39:20.010So I speak to them, okay, by next quarter, think about increasing the budget for ads in social by 25%.
00:39:20.010 -->
00:39:34.730And that means that you will need to also um increase X percent for the um server of your website because the push is gonna be higher, right?
00:39:34.730 -->
00:39:43.850So it's a complete analysis of the business, not only of marketing or finance, marketing operations, everything is thought about.
00:39:43.850 -->
00:39:54.010Um, and I provide that analysis to them with the costs and everything, and that's how we get to the numbers and approvals.
00:39:54.330 -->
00:40:01.850So I'm curious, so again, kind of thinking about how we could take some of these lessons for our audience and apply them.
00:40:01.850 -->
00:40:04.330Maybe this is a bridge here.
00:40:04.330 -->
00:40:09.450So you talked about having like thinking about all the just sort of downstream impacts, right?
00:40:09.450 -->
00:40:22.650We we we ramp up what we spend on uh for reach on social media, we expect more volume to come to our websites, so we need to make sure our server is capable, but we need to have enough people to take in the new leads, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:40:22.650 -->
00:40:23.290You're so you're thinking.
00:40:23.290 -->
00:40:28.410Through that, which I think is a natural way that a lot of marketing ops, RevOps people think anyway.
00:40:28.410 -->
00:40:41.530Well, the piece that I have not consistently seen with a lot of professionals is going that next level of like what is the financial component of that, both in terms of cost and benefit.
00:40:41.530 -->
00:40:55.450And so is I mean, that seemed like a pretty obvious like if we could it encourage the audience to sort that if you want to have a bigger seat or bigger influence on that kind of decision making, you need to add that component to your system level thinking.
00:40:55.450 -->
00:40:57.850A, does that sound right to you?
00:40:57.850 -->
00:41:04.490And B, is there anything else that you think like other elements that they should be thinking about to have more influence?
00:41:05.610 -->
00:41:09.850Um, yeah, that's for me, that's the main because that's what I do.
00:41:09.850 -->
00:41:18.410Um try to translate the financial um benefit of marketing.
00:41:18.410 -->
00:41:26.490But also if the marketer does not have that knowledge, then invest a bit on that education.
00:41:26.490 -->
00:41:29.610Um get to get a course.
00:41:29.610 -->
00:41:41.769You don't have to get a uh uh you know a bachelor's degree in accounting to know that just you know just they just part like go spend time, go to their finance or accounting people and see down with them.
00:41:42.090 -->
00:41:44.730Help me understand how you think about these kinds of things.
00:41:45.050 -->
00:41:46.410Correct, exactly.
00:41:46.410 -->
00:41:58.650And also if they get access to the data, I think that's also very important because it will help them to see at least the patterns.
00:41:58.650 -->
00:42:08.410You can see, even though if you're not an accountant or a finance person, you most people are good in seeing patterns.
00:42:08.410 -->
00:42:13.530So if you see a pattern in numbers and you have the dates there, that's all you need to know.
00:42:13.530 -->
00:42:21.050If your campaign rent from two weeks, then find the two weeks of finance information and then do the analysis.
00:42:21.050 -->
00:42:25.050We don't have to go too deep into the finance or more.
00:42:26.010 -->
00:42:30.250You just have to get some level of a like a scientific analysis, right?
00:42:31.210 -->
00:42:33.130Yes, exactly.
00:42:33.130 -->
00:42:44.170But I think that um it gives it gives you more power as a professional, but also more value.
00:42:44.170 -->
00:42:56.810So you you you make sure that you own your role and that you know the value of your role just by bringing that information.
00:42:56.810 -->
00:42:57.050Yeah.
00:42:57.050 -->
00:43:11.130Because that's good for you to know, hey, we had this kind of revenue this third quarter, but you cut the budget on this quarter, so that that's why we've we failed in results.
00:43:11.130 -->
00:43:16.810So you have a way to to defend your your role.
00:43:16.810 -->
00:43:20.170Connect the dots, exactly.
00:43:20.170 -->
00:43:23.850And that's the main challenge marketers has always had.
00:43:23.850 -->
00:43:29.769How why we get laid off, you know, when we weren't driving the business.
00:43:33.930 -->
00:43:39.610Um when I coach, especially people who are stepping into a first role of managing a budget or something, forecast.
00:43:39.610 -->
00:43:45.290I always tell people like it finance teams loves to know what to ex what to expect.
00:43:45.290 -->
00:43:47.530Um they don't like surprises.
00:43:47.530 -->
00:43:53.610And that's one of the things I've done well in my career is make sure like I, you know, I can manage that really well.
00:43:53.610 -->
00:43:56.650Is that do you think that's a skill that would be useful?
00:43:56.650 -->
00:44:04.170Like how to like thinking about how to manage a budget and be predictable about what you're expecting, being able to explain where there's variances, you know.
00:44:05.690 -->
00:44:06.410Definitely.
00:44:06.410 -->
00:44:21.210And even more if um marketing professional are looking to become a CMO, you know, you need to understand that information in order to be at the level of the rest of the C suit.
00:44:21.210 -->
00:44:32.250Um a marketer without understanding the business is going to, and I'm going to use this word, I don't want anyone to get offended.
00:44:32.250 -->
00:44:45.370But it's useless because you need to connect the dust with finance and the rest of your team in order to bring value on your role and how important it is.
00:44:45.370 -->
00:44:49.530For me, marketing is the most important role in a business.
00:44:49.530 -->
00:44:51.370That's my opinion.
00:44:51.370 -->
00:44:54.090It should be embedded into the business.
00:44:54.090 -->
00:45:03.450So from useless to the top performer, that's have been always my main goal when I get a role.
00:45:03.450 -->
00:45:14.410Even if it's as if it if it's as a consultant, I go in and I become part of the business and I make sure that the business excels.
00:45:14.410 -->
00:45:20.970But the finance part, it's really for me, it's a deal a deal winner or a deal breaker.
00:45:21.130 -->
00:45:21.370Yeah.
00:45:21.530 -->
00:45:26.890Um so I love it because this is the mind like something I've a drama I've been beating for a while.
00:45:26.890 -->
00:45:30.970So like you need to learn enough about finance to have a conversation.
00:45:30.970 -->
00:45:31.690Yes.
00:45:31.690 -->
00:45:33.690I want I want to shift gears a little bit.
00:45:33.690 -->
00:45:38.570This so one of the things I think when I think about career stuff for people, right?
00:45:38.570 -->
00:45:40.570There's a lot of people get into marketing ops.
00:45:40.570 -->
00:45:45.850Some are intentional, most are not, I think, in at least historically.
00:45:45.850 -->
00:45:49.290And then there's questions about like where like career-wise, where do you go?
00:45:49.290 -->
00:45:55.050So one of the ones that may make sense for some people is to go into more of a general business operations role.
00:45:55.050 -->
00:46:01.050From your experience, because it feels like you've kind of at least worked across those different things.
00:46:01.050 -->
00:46:08.970What what do you think are the skills and experience that uh what would translate well from marketing ops into more general business operations?
00:46:10.730 -->
00:46:12.490Can you repeat that question, Michael?
00:46:12.730 -->
00:46:17.850So so I I think a lot of people when they think about like if I go in marketing ops, right?
00:46:17.850 -->
00:46:22.250And but I hey, I want to go move to a path that would be lead to say COO, right?
00:46:22.250 -->
00:46:35.370Oh what are the skills that I I could I could communicate that I've learned in marketing apps that could translate into me moving from marketing focused to more general business operations?
00:46:35.370 -->
00:46:36.490Do that my sense?
00:46:36.810 -->
00:46:44.730Well, what we have spoken about throughout the call, marketing needs to be included at the table.
00:46:44.730 -->
00:46:50.490We cannot lead them like they're a silo department.
00:46:50.490 -->
00:47:06.170So that's the first thing that I I I would ask to bring up marketing to every conversation, especially the mobs, because technology, which is for me, is the second part.
00:47:06.170 -->
00:47:17.530Um, even a COO must be informed or educated in technology because the business right now is run online, right?
00:47:17.530 -->
00:47:42.890Um, and so it's it's not only the business technology, is the business technology attached to the marketing technology and that everything makes sense and the customer buys, and everyone gets the notification that we have a new customer, no one is um, you know, I'll get made.
00:47:42.890 -->
00:47:45.130Exactly.
00:47:45.130 -->
00:47:50.250Um, so I think that for me, that's the future.
00:47:50.250 -->
00:47:59.050Um, I really encourage marketers to get educated into technology very deep.
00:47:59.050 -->
00:48:08.330Um, because what we are seeing and what is coming is not going back to the traditional marketing.
00:48:08.330 -->
00:48:18.890I don't see traditional marketing, it's not that it's going to disappear, but I see more technology into marketing in the future.
00:48:18.890 -->
00:48:37.930And I think that in order for us to keep our roles or to expand to a new role or transfer our skills to a new role, we must get in um educated and skillful in technology and the business.
00:48:37.930 -->
00:48:38.730Yeah.
00:48:38.730 -->
00:48:39.850Both things.
00:48:40.090 -->
00:48:40.330Yeah.
00:48:40.330 -->
00:48:47.290Well, I think I think a lot of this, in particular, like AI type technology, is changing the way that people buy, right?
00:48:47.370 -->
00:48:49.930And so, what's the hyped?
00:48:49.930 -->
00:48:52.250What's the tip of the iceberg, Michael?
00:48:52.410 -->
00:48:52.650Yeah.
00:48:52.890 -->
00:48:58.490Um, I'm going to soon start a Martech role, and that's the tip of the iceberg.
00:48:58.490 -->
00:49:15.450I mean, we are we uh a law passed, um, I think it was in 2024, if I'm not mistaken, by summer by the former president Biden about um quantum technology.
00:49:15.450 -->
00:49:23.450I mean, we are seeing AI now, but things are moving towards quantum technology into marketing.
00:49:23.450 -->
00:49:29.769So AI for me is just a surface level.
00:49:29.769 -->
00:49:31.050Exactly.
00:49:31.370 -->
00:49:33.690Yeah, it's gonna be fascinating in the next couple of years.
00:49:33.690 -->
00:49:36.810Well, I believe it has been a great conversation.
00:49:36.810 -->
00:49:40.090I wish we could continue on, but we're gonna have to kind of wrap it up.
00:49:40.410 -->
00:49:41.050Thank you so much.
00:49:41.690 -->
00:49:42.090Yeah, yeah.
00:49:42.090 -->
00:49:45.610If if people want to connect with you, it sounds like you're more active on LinkedIn.
00:49:45.610 -->
00:49:46.890So I mean, I guess that's where you're gonna go.
00:49:46.890 -->
00:49:52.330But if people want to, you know, continue the conversation with you or learn more about what you're doing, what's the best way for them to do that?
00:49:52.570 -->
00:49:57.450Yes, they can connect with me in LinkedIn, of course, Ibelis arroyo and Instagram as well.
00:49:57.450 -->
00:49:58.730I'm very active there too.
00:49:58.970 -->
00:50:00.410Okay, there you go.
00:50:00.410 -->
00:50:03.370All right, well, Ibelise such a pleasure.
00:50:03.370 -->
00:50:04.330It was so much fun.
00:50:04.330 -->
00:50:06.730Thanks for being a first Caribbean guest.
00:50:06.730 -->
00:50:08.250Uh, I'm happy about that.
00:50:08.250 -->
00:50:10.570Continue to grow internationally.
00:50:10.570 -->
00:50:12.730Well, I appreciate it, I appreciate it.
00:50:12.730 -->
00:50:17.690And uh as always, to uh everyone out there, thank you for listening and supporting us.
00:50:17.690 -->
00:50:26.570If you have ideas for topics or guests or you want to be a guest, reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling just like we did with Evil's.
00:50:26.570 -->
00:50:28.890Until next time, bye everybody.
00:50:28.890 -->
00:50:30.250Thank you.
