Survey Says: Part One

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Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Ian Wilkes and I'm joined with my extraordinary podcast partner, the stupendous Jim Bennett.
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Yes, stupendous is a good word.
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Always think of Calvin and Hobbes.
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Do you remember Calvin and Hobbes?
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I don't know those two.
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Is that just an American comic strip?
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It's probably the best comic strip ever written.
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Calvin's like a five-year-old boy and his stuffed tiger, Hobbes, and his alter ego was stupendous man.
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Nice.
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I like it.
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Notice I said stupendous and not stupid.
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Well, I think they're quite close.
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I think the line between them is really kind of blurry.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Well, uh, not in your case, you're a very wonderful individual.
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And as always, I'm grateful to be having these conversations with you.
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Remind our listeners, you know, about inside out, uh, what we're about.
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We want to help.
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We want to have the conversations that are going to help people wherever you are in your experience in your life in the church.
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If you're out and you're trying to, you're still connected and you want to hear these different conversations and they're helpful, great.
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If you're in or you navigate in your faith, you have questions, again, the podcast is designed to bring these issues, the challenges, but also a lot of successes that the church achieves as well.
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We We are focused on being a balanced voice, if you like, about the church, talking about a range of different topics and issues.
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Some of them are very challenging.
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You know, the church is going through, as it always has done, extraordinary change.
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Sometimes that change is fast.
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Other times, often it's slow and it takes time.
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But overall, our hope is the church continues to improve and be increasingly a safe place for people who are navigating at different levels across all kinds of experiences, all kinds of backgrounds.
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Hopefully that reminds us a little bit about one of the objectives, if you like, of the podcast.
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Today's an interesting conversation because recently the church appears to have commissioned a survey.
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On the podcast, Jim, as you know, we've talked often about the revelatory process in the church, right?
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We've said repeatedly the church claims that in Scripture and on the record repeatedly, less so the last decade, I think, but makes a bold claim that it is the only true church upon the face of the earth and that President Nelson, or the living prophet at the time, is the only exclusive mouthpiece for God and Jesus Christ upon the entire earth in the history of revelations between God and man.
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So that's quite an extraordinary claim and a very significant responsibility that rests upon the shoulders of President Nelson.
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So he speaks, communes with God, and God directs and instructs the prophet on the earth who is the leader of the only true church.
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And so all that information, all of the direction, instruction, revelation, decisions, confirmations, et cetera, and lots of other things are included revealed to the prophet directly from Jesus Christ and from God through the power of the Holy Ghost.
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And so why, if you had such an extraordinary source, which I believe they have, not exclusive, I don't believe the church has got exclusive authority on revelation or inspiration at all.
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I think you know my thoughts on that.
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But I do believe they do have access to the same inspiration that we do as individuals in the world and rank-and-file members in the church.
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And so why would, with making that kind of claim and having that extraordinary power and authority and direct hotline, if you like, to God to discuss and pray and and ponder about all kinds of challenges and issues, why would you need to commission a survey?
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Why would you need to ask members of the church for their feedback and input?
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But that's what the church has done, and it's done that recently.
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It's not the first time, Jim, that the church has commissioned a survey.
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I remember when I was in the UK years ago, it wasn't online back then, but it was a a survey that we were asked to do in the Joint Priesthood Relief Society that was commissioned by the church on all range of issues.
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I think I've participated in a number of surveys that the church has commissioned over the years.
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Before we get into the details of this more recent survey, have you been part of any surveys, Jim, in the past, historically?
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I have been a part of several surveys.
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They've always been targeted surveys in that I wasn't able to forward them on to anyone else.
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I was the only one who was able to answer them.
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I'm not quite sure what the technology is that does that, but these were targeted surveys.
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And one of them I remember being very interesting because it was talking about teachings about grace, which is a subject we don't hear a lot about in the church, subject that we're a little bit afraid to talk about in the church.
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And the questions, I thought, were really thoughtful, and I was really interested in the fact that the church was considering, or the suggestion was, the implication was, that the church was considering teaching grace in a way that I would have really liked, and which is not consistent with how they taught grace.
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And since the survey, I haven't seen any real change.
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So I don't know what kind of impact the survey had, what the purposes were.
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But the thing that was interesting about all these surveys, of course, is that they're targeted, that they're given to a limited audience.
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And I don't know why I was chosen to participate in them, but a number of other people are chosen to participate in them.
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And I remember talking to a researcher who will go unnamed, But who said, next time you get one of these, could you please screenshot them?
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Because not everybody can see what they are.
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So it was last week, I think, where you sent me a copy of this survey.
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And I was surprised to learn that I could take it.
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I mean, it wasn't aimed at me because you had forwarded it to me.
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But I took it and I screenshotted it.
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And then I said, you need to take it.
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And by the time you tried to take it, It was by invitation only.
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And a number of other people have talked about this particular survey because apparently somebody made a mistake and sent the survey out and anybody could respond to it for a while.
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And so a lot of people took it.
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But I'm the only one that I've seen online who actually captured the screenshot.
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So I think that we can talk about them in detail because we know what the questions were.
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So, yeah, I've taken a survey is the short answer, but that leads us to where we are today.
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Yeah, so thank you for that.
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So you've been involved in a number of surveys.
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You've given us some, you know, your experience on the more recent one.
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Yes, I did say to the link, I did try answer a couple of the first questions and they worked for me.
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I was surprised because I'm not in the church anymore.
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And I thought...
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It was interesting getting my opinion.
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And then to your point, I didn't send you the link.
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You then did the questionnaires.
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Did you do the entire questionnaire?
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Did you?
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I did the entire questionnaire, yes.
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That's fantastic.
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And then the link...
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stop for me i i went back to the link and i couldn't access it and you can't get onto it now the um i think the the holy ghost told them out i'm an apostate and that ian is not worthy i'm not worthy enough to to take the questionnaire but jim's worthy which is great because you you've always been worthier than me so worthy just the worthy is all crap because of your geniusness, that's a word, you did the screenshots.
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So we have proof that it existed, otherwise people might think we're making it all up.
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And I've got the screenshots, and we'd like to go through them together, and hopefully our listeners will find this absolutely interesting.
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I also want to say, before we get into this, we said earlier, why would the church feel the need to do the survey?
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considering the extraordinary source of inspiration information.
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And it's said in the past often, God's ways are not man's ways.
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God operates differently.
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The church operates to a higher law.
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We obey the laws of the land, but the church operates to a much higher law.
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The prophet, President Nelson, has said that not long ago.
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God's ways are his ways.
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We operate to a higher law.
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etc.
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And the other point I kind of highlighted in our back and forward messaging, why would the church feel the need to obtain or gather the opinions or canvass the opinions of men?
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In the temple, pre-1990, they talked about, I think in the ceremony, the temple ceremony, about the opinions of men.
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I think it was some kind of reference in the temple that the church really doesn't canvass the opinions of men or doesn't so much consider the opinion of men.
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It's the view of God that the church considers.
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So why on earth do a survey?
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I think it's good to do a survey.
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It's good to canvass the opinions of the members.
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But anyway, without further ado, let's get into some of the questions here.
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So the first question that comes up is as follows.
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And maybe you and I could take it in turns on each of the different screenshots.
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Sure.
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If you're okay with that.
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Well, very quickly, I want to jump back.
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I want to tell a quick story.
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Sure.
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Because in the age of the internet, these surveys are something that are simple to do.
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But back in the 1980s, before our missions, my father and my uncle, who was the stake president in Los Angeles, were commissioned by...
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by...
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Elder M.
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Russell Ballard to figure out ways to use the media and conducted a number of surveys back then and figured out ways to use the media to teach the gospel.
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And what they came back with was personal testimonials on cassettes would be really effective.
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And that sort of morphed into The plans that we had when we were on our mission, you know, the Together Forever cassettes that we gave out, our Heavenly Father's plan cassettes that gave out.
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And my father was really kind of frustrated with the fact that they didn't do what their survey results had told them they ought to do.
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That's neither here nor there, but it points out that this is not a new approach.
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This is something the church continues to do.
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And the way my father would justify it, he said, look, God knows how to cure every disease.
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He can cure hematomas.
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He can cure aneurysms.
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He can do all of that, and yet he still expects us to seek medical technology.
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And so he says, so he also expects us to exercise every tool at our disposal to understand the best ways to teach the gospel.
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He was focused primarily on missionary work, but he never saw a problem with surveys being used and these kinds of research being used in order to tailor the gospel message.
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And so that has kind of tempered...
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I think you have looked at this and said, well, why on earth would the church, the only true church that's directed by God, have to take surveys?
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And I don't really have that strong a reaction to it because...
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I think God expects us to do everything within our power to find the answers using our own abilities, using our own judgment, and then maybe take those answers to God for confirmation, but not have those answers handed to us at the outset.
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So that's kind of my perspective here at the beginning of this is that I think I'm not quite as I don't want to use the term frustrated, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with the only true church on the face of the earth taking surveys of its members.
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Does that make sense?
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It does make sense, and I appreciate that.
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I should have been clearer in my comments earlier, and I wasn't.
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Forgive me.
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Your explanation there is my position too.
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I was being, you know, figuratively speaking, I was being devil's advocate, and I was also citing comments and feedback I've had on this subject of surveys from people who do, who are not happy with this survey.
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They would say that, you know, why do a survey?
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So I don't necessarily share that view.
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I'm with you that I think information helps inspiration.
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If you look at the Book of Mormon example with the brother of Jared, where he's building the barges.
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He couldn't have any windows in the barges and traveled across those vast, turbulent waters.
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They needed light.
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And instead of God giving the answer, Brother Jared, he said, what do you want me to do, essentially?
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And then Brother Jared thought about it.
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He had these 16 stones, and he asked God if he touched these stones with his finger, the stones would illuminate.
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And he could then take those stones into the barge that was completely sealed in the dark.
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Because it had to be like that because it would be dashed, I think, by the rocks.
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And of course, these 16 stones would illuminate and provide light inside the dark barges.
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And so that was God putting it back on Brother Jarrah saying, look, what do you want me to do?
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Brother Jarrah came up with a solution.
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thinking for himself.
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And that's where I've always been with the church.
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However, there are those people in the church that, and I've met them, even met them in my calling as bishop and state presidency, where they don't put any value at all in the surveys.
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Who cares what people think?
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It's ultimately what God thinks, right?
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What God says will follow.
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These are very strong, orthodox, unquestioning, you know, non-doubting believers in the church who are really not into critical thinking.
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So I just want to qualify that.
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So let's, we'll get into the questions here.
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The first question is, or the first statement is, personal inspiration from the Lord will never contradict the revelation God gives through his prophets.
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And you have the option of, I do not believe this statement.
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I'm not sure whether I believe this statement.
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I believe this statement.
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And that's interesting because you're going to get different answers to that, right?
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I think if you look at the composition of the member, you know, the rank and file members, you get people who are from one spectrum who don't believe black should have the priesthood, for example, even now.
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And we've met some of those people, right?
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People, yeah, we've got someone on the podcast who holds...
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I think at least some extreme views on certain things.
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But those people exist in the church.
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That's an element of the church.
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And they will probably say, you know, they'll answer that question according to their strength, if you like, in their beliefs, you know, in the church.
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And the other one is, I'm not sure whether I believe this statement or I believe this statement.
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So personal revelation from the Lord will never contradict the revelation of God, God gives through his prophets.
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Do you have an answer to that, Jim?
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Or can you share an answer to that?
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Do you agree with that?
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I've
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been a little nervous about this in terms of sharing my own answers because there are a lot of Desnat types who very much want to trap me into answering questions that uh will label me as an apostate particularly as we get to the questions later on about lgbtq issues there's even one question that says same-sex marriages should be performed in the temple and i am well aware that if i were to publicly say yes or publicly advocate for that kind of change uh that could get me into trouble and so it's really interesting so I am going to reserve the right not to answer some of these questions.
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I did answer all of them in the survey, although I was a little nervous too, because not so much on this one, because I don't think they even knew who I was, but in all the targeted surveys, some of the answers might be considered apostate.
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And I thought, well, geez, if I tell the church that I, I think this when in fact, um, that's not something that the church looks kindly on, am I going to get in trouble?
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And I never did.
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That's because my answers were perfectly faithful and wonderful.
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So I'm just a little reluctant.
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I want to reserve the right to be able to not answer some of these publicly.
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I'm fairly comfortable answering publicly, even though I think my answer probably is considered a little bit heretical.
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in that I absolutely think that personal revelation can contradict counsel from church leaders.
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If that were not the case, then everybody who was praying and hoping for the 1978 revelation to extend priesthood and temple blessings to people of African descent, every single one of them that got an assurance that that was going to happen was clearly out of step.
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Anybody that disagreed with that policy and got inspiration that told them that, yes, this is a good thing, you should believe that all people are equal, that contradicted the teachings of the church at the time, and yet those people were later proven right.
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So I think you can point to all kinds of different examples of when the church has made mistakes, that there are people in the church that have got an inspiration that shows that they were right and the church was mistaken or an error.
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So I can...
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Bet that I know what your answer to that question is.
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I'm assuming you agree with that statement.
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Totally, I am.
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And I really appreciate you highlighting the sensitivities around your own opinion on these questions.
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And I understand and respect that.
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You know, you're active in the church and you've got your own thoughts, personal thoughts and feelings.
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On the survey, it doesn't ask you for your name, right?
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So it's an anonymous questionnaire and blind in respect to that.
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But I think it's interesting.
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The answers that the church will get, I think, will be quite fascinating.
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Yeah, I don't believe that statement.
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I've had personal experience where my personal inspirations differed quite significantly with the church.
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Like the...
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What ended up being the reversal policy on the LGBTQ children, you know, gay parent issue that happened.
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And the church was very fixed on its policy announcement in 2015, I think it was.
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Was it 2016, 2015?
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And then reversed it again.
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not long after.
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So, and went into great detail about the revelry process when the church introduced that policy.
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President Nelson walked us through that revelry process.
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And to me, it's like, you know, it was absolutely fixed and assured that that policy was from God.
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People saw that.
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I never felt comfortable with that at all.
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And, you know, I've got friends who are gay and it caused a lot of hurt and harm and the church thankfully reversed that.
00:21:41.709 --> 00:21:44.673
So, Yeah, no, I don't believe that statement.
00:21:46.596 --> 00:21:55.949
The other thing as well that you highlight, the church will get a snapshot of where members' opinions are on the apostasy line, right?
00:21:56.388 --> 00:22:06.943
You talked about some of the questions that you may answer may be closer to that line than other questions, and that's what the church will get.
00:22:06.983 --> 00:22:11.569
It will get an interesting perspective on where...
00:22:12.226 --> 00:22:23.717
a sample of the church membership where they are in respect to what that apostasy line is, which is quite gray and confusing and tends to move.
00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:28.982
That causes a lot of concern for people.
00:22:29.303 --> 00:22:32.346
Are they in apostasy if they don't accept or agree certain things?
00:22:33.186 --> 00:22:40.493
So the church will get this fascinating insight into the thinking of the members through the survey.
00:22:40.897 --> 00:22:44.144
The next question, Jim, if you can see that, do you want to read that?
00:22:44.184 --> 00:22:46.189
Yeah.
00:22:47.130 --> 00:22:54.464
The words we use to express doctrine can change without the doctrine itself changing.
00:22:54.505 --> 00:22:58.172
That seems a really weird sort of purposeless question to me.
00:22:58.593 --> 00:23:00.837
What are they trying to find out with that question?
00:23:01.153 --> 00:23:02.455
I said, yeah, what's the intent behind that?
00:23:02.496 --> 00:23:02.836
I don't know.
00:23:02.876 --> 00:23:03.897
That's interesting.
00:23:04.219 --> 00:23:11.891
You know, when we hear a doctrine or a spoken, we have interpretation, right?
00:23:12.172 --> 00:23:13.453
You know, we interpret it in a certain way.
00:23:13.493 --> 00:23:14.476
We understand it a certain way.
00:23:14.496 --> 00:23:16.739
It means different things to different people.
00:23:16.778 --> 00:23:20.625
And we can explain and describe it in different words.
00:23:20.806 --> 00:23:21.867
You know, we're not robots.
00:23:22.167 --> 00:23:28.317
You know, we have our own cultures, our own biases, our own beliefs.
00:23:28.577 --> 00:23:31.740
perspectives and opinions on life and our own experiences.
00:23:32.261 --> 00:23:40.490
And we see things differently, but still not less important in terms of what the doctrine is.
00:23:40.529 --> 00:23:50.278
So, yeah, we can use language to express doctrine, and that can vary, but the doctrine doesn't change,
00:23:51.580 --> 00:23:51.661
yeah.
00:23:51.681 --> 00:23:56.945
Well, there are later questions, I think, that get into the idea of doctrine changing.
00:23:57.730 --> 00:24:07.961
Because I think one of the big errors that people have is this idea that doctrine can never change, when in fact we have all kinds of examples of doctrine changing.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:15.249
And then we explain it away by saying, well, it was never really doctrine, it was only a policy, which I just think is ridiculous.
00:24:15.489 --> 00:24:16.549
I think that's very silly.
00:24:16.589 --> 00:24:19.093
But this question doesn't even get to that.
00:24:19.113 --> 00:24:23.458
Of course the language we use to express doctrine can change.
00:24:24.513 --> 00:24:26.655
It always does change.
00:24:27.336 --> 00:24:30.701
Every person uses different—so I don't really understand that question.
00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:31.821
The next question, though, is—
00:24:32.201 --> 00:24:33.222
I want to make a comment.
00:24:33.262 --> 00:24:39.230
Sorry, before your next question, I'm listening to what you're saying, and it's a question that I've never thought about before.
00:24:40.029 --> 00:24:55.108
You know when a doctrine comes out and there's an intent by the church to have a certain understanding of the doctrine—and I'm trying to think of an example— And then it's spoken in conference or it's in some lesson material.
00:24:55.951 --> 00:24:59.056
And then people have their own perspective, their own experiences.
00:24:59.656 --> 00:25:10.676
The question I have in my mind is if those experiences become quite common across the church, those perspectives, those interpretations are quite common, which could vary from the original doctrine.
00:25:11.317 --> 00:25:15.465
Do those interpretations change the doctrine and become the doctrine?
00:25:16.993 --> 00:25:38.452
If that's the intent to find out from the church that where a doctrine was this, and then over years where the church membership generally has a understanding or a perspective on it that might be better than the original doctrine, has that doctrine changed or morphed to align it with the more common interpretations of the members?
00:25:38.492 --> 00:25:39.413
Am I making sense here?
00:25:39.433 --> 00:25:39.755
No, I
00:25:40.395 --> 00:25:41.337
think it's making sense.
00:25:41.826 --> 00:25:42.767
Well, I think so.
00:25:43.047 --> 00:25:48.093
Maybe that helps to understand, helps to inform us as to what the intent here is.
00:25:49.134 --> 00:25:55.422
Because I think the church is looking for ways to look like doctrine isn't changing.
00:25:56.343 --> 00:25:56.623
Yes.
00:25:57.463 --> 00:26:00.446
And so this could be an excuse.
00:26:00.487 --> 00:26:02.750
It's like, oh, we're just using different language.
00:26:03.411 --> 00:26:08.232
The doctrine hasn't changed, even though The doctrine has changed.
00:26:08.554 --> 00:26:09.535
It's very clever.
00:26:09.575 --> 00:26:11.419
If that's the intent of the approach, it's very clever.
00:26:11.439 --> 00:26:23.019
Because if you teach a doctrine, right, and 80% have this understanding or interpretation of the doctrine, it's not quite what the church was hoping or anticipating or even expecting.
00:26:23.298 --> 00:26:26.585
But nevertheless, most members take this understanding from it.
00:26:27.066 --> 00:26:29.170
And that could be a better understanding.
00:26:29.490 --> 00:26:30.652
And then the church kind of...
00:26:31.842 --> 00:26:53.553
moves in that direction with the opinions of the majority of the members, if that's the intent, it's very smart because it keeps the church aligned with the general current of opinion and positions and thoughts of the vast majority or the majority of the church members.
00:26:55.434 --> 00:26:57.198
Maybe that's the strategy.
00:26:57.665 --> 00:26:59.086
Maybe that's the strategy.
00:26:59.347 --> 00:27:01.890
I'm not quite sure what they're trying to do, but...
00:27:02.270 --> 00:27:02.490
Yeah,
00:27:03.872 --> 00:27:03.951
yeah.
00:27:04.133 --> 00:27:05.094
You want to read the next one?
00:27:05.594 --> 00:27:05.834
Sure.
00:27:06.174 --> 00:27:07.415
The words we use to express...
00:27:07.516 --> 00:27:08.356
Oh, sorry.
00:27:08.856 --> 00:27:13.862
The Scriptures are the only infallible authority for what to believe and do.
00:27:13.902 --> 00:27:19.067
Well, my answer to that is no.
00:27:20.788 --> 00:27:23.932
Our first episode was on problematic Scriptures, if you remember.
00:27:23.972 --> 00:27:25.193
That's right.
00:27:25.602 --> 00:27:32.170
Going back quite a bit, there are scriptures, verses in the Bible and the Book of Mormon which I have a problem with.
00:27:32.250 --> 00:27:39.138
You know, Blacks in the Priesthood, Mormon 9-9, I think it is about virtue of young women.
00:27:41.261 --> 00:27:51.414
I can't remember all the details of that first episode, but there are a number of scriptures and verses in the Bible, certainly the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon, which I have a problem with.
00:27:53.277 --> 00:27:56.566
No, well, I have a problem with the assumption behind the...
00:27:57.165 --> 00:28:00.892
I don't believe scriptures are an infallible authority.
00:28:00.991 --> 00:28:03.615
We don't believe in scriptural infallibility.
00:28:04.217 --> 00:28:13.990
The Book of Mormon says on its title page that there are the mistakes of men, or at least there's the possibility of the mistakes of men within the scriptures.
00:28:14.892 --> 00:28:21.280
So to frame this as scriptures are the only infallible authority for what to believe and do...
00:28:22.241 --> 00:28:27.027
is to assume there is such a thing as an infallible authority for what the believers do.
00:28:27.106 --> 00:28:27.988
I don't believe there is.
00:28:29.048 --> 00:28:31.590
So I answered this one absolutely no.
00:28:33.113 --> 00:28:35.996
But I would also answer scriptures aren't infallible either.
00:28:36.036 --> 00:28:37.717
And
00:28:38.498 --> 00:28:50.250
you'll get members who say, yeah, the scriptures, the canon of works, the works of God are absolutely fixed and are...
00:28:51.362 --> 00:28:55.868
and perfect and not, you know, they're not infallible.
00:28:55.989 --> 00:28:59.894
So, yeah, again, you'll get different response from different people.
00:29:00.797 --> 00:29:01.357
Next question.
00:29:02.078 --> 00:29:02.239
Go ahead.
00:29:02.259 --> 00:29:05.503
Next question.
00:29:05.644 --> 00:29:06.645
You want to go with this next one?
00:29:07.307 --> 00:29:07.507
Sure.
00:29:07.666 --> 00:29:09.329
God's love is unconditional.
00:29:11.012 --> 00:29:12.074
I do not believe the statement.
00:29:12.375 --> 00:29:13.957
I'm not sure whether I believe the statement.
00:29:14.198 --> 00:29:14.999
I believe the statement.
00:29:16.099 --> 00:29:19.425
And I believe God's love is unconditional.
00:29:21.250 --> 00:29:29.378
And it's a very interesting question to be asking because there are a number of sermons by President Nelson, particularly.
00:29:30.619 --> 00:29:38.890
Most of them, I think all of them from before he became president of the church, but they suggest that God's love is conditional.
00:29:38.930 --> 00:29:43.474
And a lot of people have a lot of problems with that, including me.
00:29:44.855 --> 00:29:49.340
I don't think he's said anything that explicit since he's become president of the church.
00:29:49.986 --> 00:30:00.195
I do think there have been teachings from General Conference by other general authorities that could be interpreted as the idea that God's love is conditional.
00:30:01.317 --> 00:30:19.433
But it's very interesting that they're asking that question because I think they recognize that there's a certain amount of controversy among the membership over statements that are interpreted as God having conditional love.
00:30:20.066 --> 00:30:34.364
And it's really, the thing that the survey makes clear to me, at least, is the fact that the brethren know what the problems are.
00:30:35.785 --> 00:30:44.435
The brethren are aware of the divisions within the church among people who say God's love is conditional.
00:30:44.556 --> 00:30:46.358
No, God's love is unconditional.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:31:01.618
And so I think this survey is, isn't necessarily an attempt to alter whatever it is the Brethren believe, but rather to gauge where the membership is.
00:31:02.439 --> 00:31:13.290
Because I think very often the Brethren are nervous about doing something that they know is going to be largely rejected by the membership at large.
00:31:13.391 --> 00:31:16.394
I think they learned that lesson to some degree during COVID.
00:31:17.314 --> 00:31:24.542
when they pushed vaccines and they pushed masking and saw a big contingent of the church push back hard.
00:31:25.463 --> 00:31:31.352
And these are supposedly the members of the church that are the most faithful and the most conservative and the most zealous.
00:31:31.972 --> 00:31:45.250
And yet when President Nelson's council contradicted their political opinions, all of a sudden President Nelson was only speaking as a man and President Nelson was a fallen prophet and the church was going woke.
00:31:45.890 --> 00:31:49.053
and every other nonsense argument you can think of.
00:31:49.554 --> 00:32:05.869
So I think part of this is them trying to gauge just how well their messages are resonating and also warn them against pushing messages that don't resonate.
00:32:06.570 --> 00:32:06.911
Do you think
00:32:06.951 --> 00:32:07.632
that's part of it?
00:32:08.272 --> 00:32:09.153
I think that's part of it.
00:32:09.614 --> 00:32:11.556
I've got pretty strong feelings and views on this.
00:32:11.796 --> 00:32:13.317
I'm quite disturbed by this question.
00:32:14.114 --> 00:32:23.087
And I do remember that talk that President Nelson gave and others gave, which brought into question the conditions for God's love, right?
00:32:23.969 --> 00:32:38.932
And I think behind it, one element behind it was the concept or the notion that as individuals, we're fallen, individuals fallen from God, and that we're imperfect.
00:32:39.152 --> 00:32:44.520
And the notion that We can say, look, all my faults and failings, just accept it.
00:32:45.561 --> 00:32:46.482
God will accept me.
00:32:46.943 --> 00:32:47.703
This is who I am.
00:32:47.723 --> 00:32:50.707
I think President Holland talked about this at some point.
00:32:50.926 --> 00:32:53.089
I can't remember who the John thought it was that talked about it.
00:32:53.670 --> 00:32:56.092
Just accept me as I am with all my faults and failings.
00:32:56.172 --> 00:32:57.212
God loves me anyhow.
00:32:57.693 --> 00:33:00.096
Don't expect too much from me and do the best I can.
00:33:00.115 --> 00:33:02.397
And I think the church had a problem with that.
00:33:02.438 --> 00:33:09.464
And to bring that up as a question is concerning and ridiculous, frankly, absurd.
00:33:09.505 --> 00:33:18.424
And a false statement and position by whoever speaks about that in the church leadership, including President Nelson.
00:33:19.046 --> 00:33:21.529
I believe that God's love is unconditional.
00:33:22.872 --> 00:33:56.986
He doesn't accept or agree with a lot of our actions and behaviors, but the opportunity to repent and seek forgiveness and to change, notwithstanding our many faults and failings, et cetera, is always there and driven, I believe, and still believe and motivated by the love of God that we ultimately, the thing that motivates us to change and improve and put off the natural man is the love that we have for God and Christ and the love that we have for our fellow men.
00:33:57.286 --> 00:34:01.570
And that love is the ultimate power and motivating power to make the changes.
00:34:02.432 --> 00:34:04.453
It's the very center of the gospel.
00:34:04.493 --> 00:34:06.275
It's the very fulcrum of the gospel.
00:34:06.715 --> 00:34:10.985
You know, the charity, the pure love of Christ, unconditional, notwithstanding our problems.
00:34:11.344 --> 00:34:39.384
And to even suggest, which was suggested, that God's love may be conditional is offensive, insulting, cowardly to even suggest that if you don't meet a certain standard or live a certain live with exactness, like we were taught on the missions, then it could compromise your relationship with God and actually compromise the love that God has for you.
00:34:39.443 --> 00:34:41.666
I think it's anti-Christ.
00:34:42.728 --> 00:34:45.452
I know that's a very strong thing to say, but I feel strong about it.
00:34:45.472 --> 00:34:51.760
I mean, the very heart of the gospel is love, isn't it?
00:34:53.324 --> 00:34:54.925
What's the ultimate...
00:34:55.489 --> 00:35:22.536
experience is to love and to be loved and and and to have that loving relationship with the heavenly father and to know that he loves you unconditionally we've always taught that yeah i've always felt that so i think that's one of the more uh interesting primarily questions uh and any general authority prophet um who holds those views that god's love is is conditional is I don't accept that.
00:35:22.596 --> 00:35:23.295
I think it's false.
00:35:23.597 --> 00:35:24.137
It's absurd.
00:35:24.197 --> 00:35:26.000
It's a stupid thing to believe in my opinion.
00:35:26.740 --> 00:35:27.181
So go ahead.
00:35:28.242 --> 00:35:31.487
Well, the next one very simply says Jesus is God.
00:35:31.507 --> 00:35:33.829
Do you
00:35:33.869 --> 00:35:34.250
agree?
00:35:34.289 --> 00:35:34.871
Disagree?
00:35:34.931 --> 00:35:37.514
Not in the theology of the church.
00:35:37.574 --> 00:35:39.677
Jesus is a God.
00:35:39.717 --> 00:35:44.702
You know, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are gods.
00:35:45.483 --> 00:35:47.106
The Holy Ghost is a God in spirit.
00:35:47.527 --> 00:35:49.769
We achieve Godhood status, if you like.
00:35:50.434 --> 00:36:00.603
But God is the Father, Jesus Christ is the Son, Holy Ghost is the brother of Christ, is my understanding.
00:36:01.164 --> 00:36:04.608
But Jesus is not the God, he's a God.
00:36:04.947 --> 00:36:05.248
What's that?
00:36:06.608 --> 00:36:08.570
The Holy Ghost is the brother of Christ?
00:36:09.172 --> 00:36:10.273
That's been my understanding.
00:36:10.512 --> 00:36:11.994
Is that another podcast?
00:36:12.755 --> 00:36:19.521
Well, we could do a whole podcast on the fact that nobody's been able to define who or what the Holy Ghost is.
00:36:20.034 --> 00:36:23.378
My understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the Son of God, the Father.
00:36:25.041 --> 00:36:28.226
There are those who argue that the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother.
00:36:28.266 --> 00:36:29.628
Oh, wow.
00:36:29.807 --> 00:36:30.610
Okay.
00:36:31.190 --> 00:36:31.791
I've heard that.
00:36:31.891 --> 00:36:36.137
That actually got Fiona Givens into trouble.
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:39.623
She was a scholar with the Maxwell Institute.
00:36:40.403 --> 00:36:40.644
Wow.
00:36:41.326 --> 00:36:46.954
She wrote a paper where she said that she speculated that the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother.
00:36:46.974 --> 00:36:49.597
Interesting.
00:36:49.677 --> 00:36:49.757
Yeah.
00:36:50.242 --> 00:36:50.782
So anyway,
00:36:51.724 --> 00:36:51.903
well...
00:36:52.465 --> 00:36:56.228
I've heard the Holy Ghost is Michael the Archangel and Adam, or Adam.
00:36:57.030 --> 00:37:02.077
Or Adam, or I've heard that the Holy Ghost is, it's a rotating calling.
00:37:02.836 --> 00:37:05.981
That Joseph Smith has served as the Holy Ghost since he died.
00:37:06.963 --> 00:37:07.844
Oh my goodness.
00:37:07.864 --> 00:37:07.923
Wow.
00:37:09.425 --> 00:37:10.686
So yeah, it's a whole other podcast.
00:37:11.047 --> 00:37:19.338
But the whole idea of Jesus is God, you know, if you read the title page again of the Book of Mormon, it says the...
00:37:19.746 --> 00:37:27.713
It's unto the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.
00:37:29.675 --> 00:37:43.367
You know, we try very hard not to sound Trinitarian, and yet the Book of Mormon sounds more Trinitarian than a lot of Bible scriptures in talking about how Jesus is the Father and the Son.
00:37:43.407 --> 00:37:52.121
And you read the statement of the three witnesses, it talks about It's essentially a Trinitarian sort of statement.
00:37:52.762 --> 00:38:04.521
So it's very interesting to see what they're trying to gauge here, because I know that there's a lot of sensitivity around the idea of us being Trinitarian.
00:38:05.782 --> 00:38:09.349
And I personally just don't think it's relevant anymore.
00:38:10.289 --> 00:38:12.333
It doesn't make any difference to me.
00:38:13.313 --> 00:38:15.396
whether we're Trinitarian or not.
00:38:15.436 --> 00:38:16.637
Is that terrible to say?
00:38:16.677 --> 00:38:17.719
It's just not even...
00:38:17.739 --> 00:38:21.925
I mean, you have the Father, you have the Son, you have the Holy Ghost.
00:38:22.806 --> 00:38:24.788
Trinitarians believe you have all three.
00:38:24.827 --> 00:38:26.250
We believe we have all three.
00:38:26.289 --> 00:38:32.217
But they also believe that they are sort of one in substance, and we believe they are one in purpose.
00:38:33.619 --> 00:38:36.503
And yet, the distinction just doesn't...
00:38:37.143 --> 00:38:38.806
I just don't care.
00:38:38.826 --> 00:38:40.588
Did I care?
00:38:40.628 --> 00:38:41.889
Is there a reason I should care?
00:38:43.393 --> 00:38:45.155
Kachosmi says we should care.
00:38:45.195 --> 00:38:47.920
You know, when he discusses the nature of God, right?
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:56.492
You know, the nature of God, our understanding of the Godhead is fundamental to our theology and our doctrine.
00:38:56.532 --> 00:39:00.797
You know, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:12.713
You know, God the Father Elohim is an individual and looks exactly the same, according to Truman Madsen, looks exactly the same as his son Jesus Christ.
00:39:13.153 --> 00:39:16.818
And only the Holy Ghost can separate them.
00:39:17.458 --> 00:39:24.324
If you look at the images, the first vision, God looks exactly like Jesus Christ.
00:39:25.126 --> 00:39:28.510
But they're two distinct, separate personages, end quote.
00:39:29.130 --> 00:39:35.056
So God the Father Elohim is the Father of Christ, who is also a God.
00:39:36.277 --> 00:39:37.398
Jesus Christ is his name.
00:39:37.458 --> 00:39:46.485
And then the Holy Ghost, who I thought was Adam or Michael, the archangel, or a brother and the son of God comprises the Godhead.
00:39:46.525 --> 00:39:55.496
And Christ created this earth under the direction of God the Father, which is taught in the endowment in the temple.
00:39:57.079 --> 00:39:58.460
So Jesus is God?
00:40:00.282 --> 00:40:15.364
No, if we're being strict, at least in my thinking, if I'm being strict in terms of what I understand the doctrine to be, Jesus is a God, is part of the Godhead.
00:40:16.184 --> 00:40:17.905
Well, then he's God.
00:40:17.945 --> 00:40:20.248
If he's a God, then why isn't he God?
00:40:23.231 --> 00:40:23.672
I don't know.
00:40:23.711 --> 00:40:34.623
My answer is, I just don't think this is a salient issue in the 20th century church.
00:40:34.784 --> 00:40:37.025
Why is the church asking it?
00:40:37.954 --> 00:40:43.284
I think they're trying to see if it's still a salient issue, if there's concern about it or where they are.
00:40:43.403 --> 00:40:44.666
You want to read the next one?
00:40:45.527 --> 00:40:45.708
Yeah.
00:40:45.829 --> 00:40:49.576
Maybe the church has done this questionnaire specifically for the Inside Out podcast.
00:40:50.237 --> 00:40:50.878
I think they have.
00:40:50.918 --> 00:40:56.387
Because they're listening to the Inside Out podcast, and that's where they get a lot of their inspiration from.
00:40:56.427 --> 00:40:57.449
Yeah.
00:40:58.112 --> 00:40:59.795
Is that being too presumptuous?
00:41:00.797 --> 00:41:01.498
No, not at all.
00:41:01.697 --> 00:41:04.161
I'm having fun here.
00:41:04.922 --> 00:41:07.686
God's primary role is to accept me the way I am.
00:41:07.806 --> 00:41:08.987
Hey, what did I say earlier?
00:41:09.849 --> 00:41:10.128
Okay.
00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:12.532
You agree with it.
00:41:14.454 --> 00:41:15.536
Yeah.
00:41:16.097 --> 00:41:16.697
It's love.
00:41:16.757 --> 00:41:16.898
Yeah.
00:41:16.978 --> 00:41:18.780
Accept me who I am in a loving way.
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:19.222
Yes.
00:41:20.083 --> 00:41:23.728
But also wants to encourage change and improvement.
00:41:24.148 --> 00:41:25.469
Will he accept me the way I am?
00:41:29.516 --> 00:41:30.297
That's my response.
00:41:30.697 --> 00:41:31.117
Loves us.
00:41:31.521 --> 00:41:37.708
for who we are as we are, but of course, wants us to change and improve.
00:41:39.170 --> 00:41:44.795
Well, so I think I answered no to this, that I disagree with this.
00:41:44.835 --> 00:41:57.590
To say God's primary role is to accept me the way I am is, in my mind, sort of a rejection of the atonement.
00:41:58.882 --> 00:42:03.706
God's primary role is to save us and to make us like him.
00:42:03.746 --> 00:42:17.780
And I think there's an element where he has to accept us where we are and who we are, but at the same time, the whole experience of mortality is for us to grow and to improve.
00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:40.702
So I wouldn't say that his primary role is to just be static and let me be whatever I am, although I do think that you can reconcile the idea that God wants us to grow and improve with the idea that he still has unconditional love for us where we are.
00:42:40.742 --> 00:42:43.025
So anyway, that's
00:42:43.106 --> 00:42:44.909
an interesting one to me.
00:42:45.309 --> 00:42:46.530
Yeah, no, that's a fascinating one.
00:42:46.630 --> 00:42:56.905
If you change, remove the word out, switch the word accept to love, and I'm changing it here, but God's prime rule is to love me who I am.
00:42:57.601 --> 00:43:01.327
I would agree with that as a primary role.
00:43:01.387 --> 00:43:15.847
You know, love, in my experience, my understanding, is the primary goal in life and in the universe and in everything to do with God is love, right?
00:43:15.867 --> 00:43:16.768
To be loved, to love.
00:43:18.771 --> 00:43:26.382
If the word accept could be interpreted as love, then yeah, I see that as being his primary role is to love us.
00:43:28.257 --> 00:43:32.443
I kind of cheated there by changing it, but that's my take on that.
00:43:34.103 --> 00:43:38.548
Interesting, because it says God's primary role is to do what I ask.
00:43:40.050 --> 00:43:41.391
And I said no to that.
00:43:41.431 --> 00:43:42.673
I'm
00:43:42.693 --> 00:43:43.835
with you on that one, no.
00:43:47.018 --> 00:43:50.882
Just the last two on this page, because I think they're very simple and easy to go through.
00:43:51.483 --> 00:43:57.289
God loves each of his children, and also God's primary role is to punish me if I do something wrong.
00:43:58.338 --> 00:44:00.920
I think those are very straightforward.
00:44:00.981 --> 00:44:02.483
Yes, God loves each of his children.
00:44:02.623 --> 00:44:07.010
No, his primary role is not to punish me or to punish anybody.
00:44:07.369 --> 00:44:08.130
Would you agree with that?
00:44:08.552 --> 00:44:09.393
I would agree with that, yes.
00:44:10.094 --> 00:44:10.414
All right.
00:44:10.494 --> 00:44:19.405
So that is the first page, and we've taken quite a bit of time, so we probably need to zip through some of these because there are quite a few pages here.
00:44:19.967 --> 00:44:21.949
Or we could do it across a couple of podcasts.
00:44:22.130 --> 00:44:24.853
We might do it across a couple of podcasts.
00:44:25.554 --> 00:44:26.135
But the next
00:44:26.376 --> 00:44:27.998
one, I'm going to bring it up here.
00:44:28.385 --> 00:44:31.570
God will answer my questions immediately when I ask them.
00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:33.411
No, I don't believe that statement.
00:44:33.733 --> 00:44:34.893
He gives the option of saying
00:44:35.695 --> 00:44:35.954
no.
00:44:37.277 --> 00:44:37.356
Yeah.
00:44:37.376 --> 00:44:41.481
Just from experience, I've asked God many questions that I have not gotten immediate answers to.
00:44:41.601 --> 00:44:46.367
So I don't know anybody who would answer that yes, unless they're a little bit strange.
00:44:47.489 --> 00:44:50.893
A God who would cannot allow suffering to exist.
00:44:52.416 --> 00:44:54.418
And that's the question of theodicy, right?
00:44:54.438 --> 00:44:57.202
We've talked about that extensively.
00:44:58.498 --> 00:45:13.231
Uh, and I think you have to figure, you have to figure out a way to say, you don't believe that if you're going to maintain any kind of faith, because if you believe suffering exists.
00:45:14.492 --> 00:45:26.465
So if you want to believe that there is a God who is good, um, you have to figure out some way to reconcile a good God with the existence of suffering.
00:45:26.744 --> 00:45:27.445
Would you agree with that?
00:45:28.097 --> 00:45:35.364
Yeah, this is the question of the ages, isn't it, for people who have a faith or have belief or want to believe in God.
00:45:35.385 --> 00:45:37.806
You know, we make decisions.
00:45:38.088 --> 00:45:43.753
We bring, or other people make decisions, and that impacts our lives for the good or for the bad.
00:45:43.773 --> 00:45:46.655
You know, bad stuff happens to everybody.
00:45:46.675 --> 00:45:50.800
We suffer often through our own decisions.
00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:57.166
But then there are other events like earthquakes and tsunamis and other natural occurrences and events which...
00:45:58.018 --> 00:46:05.704
and not the choice of man, which causes untold destruction on mankind and extreme suffering, famine, etc.
00:46:05.724 --> 00:46:10.248
It's an interesting and a difficult question, for sure.
00:46:10.630 --> 00:46:20.159
Why would God, it's that age-old question, why does God allow so much unnecessary suffering of the innocent that didn't bring that upon themselves?
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:21.760
And I don't have any answer to that.
00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:22.840
I don't know anyone who does.
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:32.237
I hold to the belief that God can intervene, and he does at times.
00:46:33.219 --> 00:46:35.242
Does he intervene as much as I would like?
00:46:35.402 --> 00:46:35.621
No.
00:46:35.641 --> 00:46:45.373
I'm confused, puzzled, bewildered, frankly, to understand why a God who is good doesn't intervene more often.
00:46:45.393 --> 00:46:47.217
I mean, look at the world right now, Jim.
00:46:48.438 --> 00:46:49.920
Look at what's going on, right?
00:46:50.981 --> 00:46:53.423
And I don't see things getting better, and we need help.
00:46:53.704 --> 00:47:03.177
We lost, in many ways, as a, you know, race, as a species, we are, we're lost.
00:47:03.416 --> 00:47:04.998
We're making very poor decisions.
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:05.739
We need help.
00:47:06.521 --> 00:47:12.369
Clearly, a lot of it, not all of it, we're making good decisions often, but a lot of it is really a lot of screw-ups on our part.
00:47:13.070 --> 00:47:15.273
And we've forgotten some of the basics and some of the fundamentals.
00:47:15.594 --> 00:47:19.559
What tends to happen, even what's happening with the fires in Los Angeles, which is terrible right now.
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:19.940
Right.
00:47:20.541 --> 00:47:30.277
And I know you've got people that you know down there, and my heart breaks for what is a very significant event impact on human life right now in Los Angeles.
00:47:31.157 --> 00:47:39.005
These awful experiences, people losing their lives, people have lost their homes, lost their livelihoods, etc.
00:47:39.045 --> 00:47:45.851
The other side to that, and I've listened to some interviews where people are, communities and people are rallying together.
00:47:45.871 --> 00:47:50.096
They're helping each other and saying, hey, come and stay at my place.
00:47:51.237 --> 00:47:55.762
We'll put you up, we'll feed you, we'll clothe you, we'll look after you.
00:47:56.449 --> 00:48:07.400
And so these events can bring out the best in us where we can work together and through military and love and unconditional love, we can help others.
00:48:08.161 --> 00:48:15.849
And sometimes, and probably often, those calamitous events that are happening like that brings people together.
00:48:15.929 --> 00:48:18.813
So good can actually come from suffering.
00:48:20.233 --> 00:48:28.420
I don't begin to understand all of the elements of this question maybe some of them that I try to reconcile with a loving God.
00:48:28.460 --> 00:48:51.262
But the things that happen, like in Auschwitz, for example, I do plan to go to Auschwitz at some point where extraordinary suffering was experienced by innocent individuals and there was no respite and they were not, well, they lost their lives through extreme circumstances in those awful, awful conditions.
00:48:51.302 --> 00:48:54.025
Why God would allow that is beyond me.
00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:56.992
There's an understanding there that I just don't have.
00:48:57.413 --> 00:49:01.920
But it's a really interesting question, and I think a very pertinent question as well.
00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:03.481
Go ahead.
00:49:03.501 --> 00:49:03.922
All right.
00:49:06.306 --> 00:49:11.693
The next two, we kind of had that discussion when we talk about Jesus as God.
00:49:11.733 --> 00:49:15.657
They're asking, the Holy Ghost is God, Heavenly Father is God.
00:49:15.697 --> 00:49:18.302
Your answer to this question?
00:49:18.465 --> 00:49:23.735
is, the Holy Ghost is a God, but not the God, but that Heavenly Father is the God.
00:49:23.894 --> 00:49:24.697
Would that be your answer?
00:49:25.277 --> 00:49:26.119
That would be my answer,
00:49:26.139 --> 00:49:26.239
yes.
00:49:28.322 --> 00:49:28.483
Okay.
00:49:29.405 --> 00:49:33.311
Again, this is the sort of Trinitarian thing that I just don't know that it matters.
00:49:34.474 --> 00:49:36.617
But, next one.
00:49:36.657 --> 00:49:40.324
Okay, now we're getting into the controversial stuff.
00:49:40.364 --> 00:49:41.166
You want to read that?
00:49:41.570 --> 00:49:43.132
Yeah, interesting stuff here.
00:49:43.172 --> 00:49:46.356
So the church should ordain women to preach in offices.
00:49:46.856 --> 00:49:49.920
My answer, historically, no.
00:49:49.940 --> 00:49:53.286
Now, absolutely.
00:49:54.007 --> 00:50:00.315
Women, why can't they be as equal to a man in terms of authority in preaching?
00:50:02.177 --> 00:50:02.398
Why?
00:50:02.438 --> 00:50:04.942
I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't make excellent priesthood leaders.
00:50:07.304 --> 00:50:10.690
You know, again, and this is one where I'm going to be a little cautious.
00:50:11.713 --> 00:50:20.465
I don't want women to be ordained to the priesthood if God doesn't want women to be ordained to the priesthood.
00:50:21.626 --> 00:50:22.266
That makes sense.
00:50:23.228 --> 00:50:30.677
I mean, I don't think that we can ordain women to the priesthood without a revelation saying that women should be ordained to the priesthood.
00:50:31.478 --> 00:50:40.289
That said, point me to the revelation that says women can't have the priesthood because there isn't one.
00:50:41.090 --> 00:50:49.222
I don't know of any scripture, I don't know of anything that explicitly says the priesthood is for men only.
00:50:49.242 --> 00:50:56.012
And whenever this question comes up, there's always an appeal to tradition.
00:50:56.311 --> 00:51:05.125
Well, Jesus only called 12 apostles who were men, although there are some records that suggest that's not necessarily true.
00:51:05.164 --> 00:51:10.873
There are some gospels that suggest that Mary Magdalene may have been an apostle.
00:51:11.554 --> 00:51:21.168
Paul refers to someone named Junia, which is a female name, and Junia is referred to as an apostle in the New Testament.
00:51:22.369 --> 00:51:37.672
So I think you can make an argument that there were female apostles in the early church, and you can't point me to a scripture that explicitly denies the priesthood to women.
00:51:38.534 --> 00:51:40.577
So whenever...
00:51:41.442 --> 00:51:43.304
The ordination of women comes up.
00:51:44.927 --> 00:51:49.373
It's always controversial, and people get excommunicated when they push it too hard.
00:51:50.195 --> 00:52:05.719
Kate Kelly, who created the Ordain Women movement and the organization, was excommunicated when she organized a huge march on the priesthood session.
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:09.246
She got a bunch of women that wanted to go and attend the general priesthood session.
00:52:09.985 --> 00:52:17.275
in general conference and they were turned away and there was a huge embarrassing news story about that.
00:52:17.536 --> 00:52:21.561
So I think that's when you get into trouble is when you start demanding this.
00:52:23.123 --> 00:52:34.257
But my reaction to it is I want to do it if the Lord wants to do it and I don't see any clear indication that the Lord forbids it.
00:52:35.038 --> 00:52:35.838
Am I missing something?
00:52:35.878 --> 00:52:38.021
Is there one that I don't know about?
00:52:38.626 --> 00:52:39.648
Well, maybe.
00:52:39.668 --> 00:52:44.094
It's an interesting perspective.
00:52:44.514 --> 00:52:50.445
I would add to that, maybe this is the thing that we should be thinking about as well, to what you're saying.
00:52:51.405 --> 00:53:00.840
Your response there in terms of, yes, if God wants this, speaks to the nature of God and his relationship with women.
00:53:01.621 --> 00:53:03.626
Is God equal?
00:53:03.766 --> 00:53:18.523
If the Holy Ghost is Heavenly Mother, and a God equal in every way to Heavenly Father, Elohim, does that not make a woman entirely and completely and fully equal to a man, to a male God?
00:53:20.085 --> 00:53:37.599
I would argue now, yes, men and women are equal in value, different biologically, different physically, but in terms of spiritually and emotionally, we're the same.
00:53:38.141 --> 00:53:40.403
We feel the same things.
00:53:40.443 --> 00:53:41.505
We think the same things.
00:53:41.565 --> 00:53:47.655
There are variations in how females think versus males.
00:53:48.175 --> 00:53:50.418
I understand some of that, not all of that.
00:53:51.380 --> 00:54:05.382
But the principle of equality, the fundamental principle of equality and value of a man and a woman in my new thinking now, didn't use anything like this, are the same.
00:54:06.018 --> 00:54:08.442
a woman is equal to a man in value.
00:54:08.942 --> 00:54:11.525
So why can't a woman hold authority?
00:54:12.027 --> 00:54:15.110
Women hold authority in businesses and politics all the time.
00:54:17.514 --> 00:54:22.742
Why can't we modify and change that to include women?
00:54:23.163 --> 00:54:25.967
Why don't they call women a Sunday school presidency?
00:54:26.327 --> 00:54:29.972
There's no ecclesiastical requirement there in state courts towards Sunday school.
00:54:30.594 --> 00:54:33.938
That's a really good stepping stone, I think, to listen to this.
00:54:34.018 --> 00:54:34.619
I would do that.
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:35.380
I would make...
00:54:35.842 --> 00:54:42.771
If you want to change in this direction, I'd make a strategic move and allow women to be called into stake and ward Sunday school.
00:54:43.331 --> 00:54:45.494
That, I repeat, doesn't require the preacher's authority.
00:54:46.054 --> 00:54:47.998
I have no problem going to a woman bishop.
00:54:49.719 --> 00:54:54.847
As long as they keep it in confidence and give me the best counsel like a man would.
00:54:55.788 --> 00:54:56.509
What's the difference?
00:54:56.568 --> 00:54:59.853
I think the church is living in the...
00:55:01.730 --> 00:55:02.931
in the dark on this.
00:55:03.391 --> 00:55:08.039
And I think it needs to move forward a lot quicker and open up more opportunities for women.
00:55:08.199 --> 00:55:14.126
And yes, ultimately, allow women, allow is an interesting word, isn't it?
00:55:14.606 --> 00:55:17.210
But ordain women to the priesthood.
00:55:17.271 --> 00:55:18.231
I have no problem with that.
00:55:18.311 --> 00:55:19.494
In the past, I would.
00:55:19.534 --> 00:55:26.123
I had that very traditional thinking and, you know, one is a woman and a man is a man and we have our own different roles and responsibilities.
00:55:26.422 --> 00:55:31.289
I can't think of one calling in the church that a woman couldn't perform equally as well as a man.
00:55:32.130 --> 00:55:32.429
Could you?
00:55:33.552 --> 00:55:33.771
No.
00:55:33.791 --> 00:55:47.989
I remember being in a gospel doctrine class where somebody said, you have to understand that the brethren are operating on such a high spiritual plane that we can barely comprehend it.
00:55:48.230 --> 00:56:03.148
And I said, no, I think there are 15 people in this room, men and women, who are just as righteous and just as spiritual and just as capable as the 15 men who stand in the highest offices of this church.
00:56:04.389 --> 00:56:04.610
So,
00:56:05.510 --> 00:56:05.972
all right.
00:56:06.552 --> 00:56:16.784
Women, by the way, women, studies have shown that women are better communicators than men and often more emotionally intelligent than men.
00:56:18.065 --> 00:56:30.264
So, you know, there are strengths and weaknesses, if you like, but in terms of value and equality of that human spirit That's equal in my book.
00:56:30.804 --> 00:56:41.934
Whenever this comes up, there is always this sort of pedestalization of women.
00:56:42.835 --> 00:56:57.030
Very often people will say, oh, well, jeez, women don't need the priesthood because they're so righteous and they're already so spiritual that only men need the priesthood because we're just so weak and...
00:56:57.793 --> 00:57:05.083
And the older I get, the more I hear those arguments, the more I'm disgusted by them.
00:57:06.806 --> 00:57:12.273
Because I don't think anybody who was making that argument genuinely believes it.
00:57:13.876 --> 00:57:18.001
I think there is a lot of rationalization attached to that argument.
00:57:19.463 --> 00:57:27.862
And it's, I mean, men and women, I mean, yes, there are, fundamental differences between men and women, biological differences.
00:57:28.041 --> 00:57:32.706
And I think there are, in fact, inner differences between masculine and feminine.
00:57:32.748 --> 00:57:36.452
But at the same time, it's not...
00:57:36.811 --> 00:57:39.775
There isn't a clear line in terms...
00:57:39.795 --> 00:57:51.050
I mean, there are women who are, you know, that have traits that would be described as masculine and men that have traits that would be described as feminine.
00:57:51.090 --> 00:57:54.094
And I think just saying, well, women...
00:57:55.137 --> 00:57:57.822
all women are more emotionally intelligent even.
00:57:57.862 --> 00:58:00.306
It's like, well, no, that's not true.
00:58:00.525 --> 00:58:03.449
There are men with great emotional intelligence and there are women with...
00:58:04.130 --> 00:58:17.411
I mean, I just think drawing any kind of strict general line in terms of a man or a woman's capacity just based on their gender, it's a fraught exercise.
00:58:18.393 --> 00:58:21.938
I think that men and women individually...
00:58:22.786 --> 00:58:29.094
are vastly different, not just in terms of men and women, but from man to man and woman to woman.
00:58:29.894 --> 00:58:30.735
We're all different.
00:58:30.856 --> 00:58:36.862
We all have strengths and weaknesses, some which would be considered masculine, some which could be considered feminine.
00:58:37.963 --> 00:58:47.835
But the reality is that on the whole, we've seen in the world that women can be great leaders.
00:58:48.757 --> 00:58:50.659
Women can fulfill all the roles.
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:56.322
I don't know that women can be great Football players, because of the biological differences.
00:58:56.822 --> 00:59:01.347
I don't think the reason why women aren't playing in the NFL is strictly because the NFL is sexist.
00:59:02.570 --> 00:59:10.760
You know, so it's a little bit difficult just to say absolutely their entire, because they're not the same, but they are equal.
00:59:10.820 --> 00:59:18.088
But then that gets to the separate but equal thing that was struck down by the Supreme Court decades ago.
00:59:18.108 --> 00:59:22.454
Anyway, that's a long, messy answer to this.
00:59:22.849 --> 00:59:24.070
Well, yeah, it's interesting.
00:59:24.090 --> 00:59:26.833
I agree with a lot of that.
00:59:26.893 --> 00:59:28.536
There's some of it I do not agree with.
00:59:28.896 --> 00:59:39.947
And the studies show that very typically, fairly extensive studies show that men are, in terms of numbers, volume, and not as well as...
00:59:40.887 --> 00:59:46.333
Of course, there are men who are great communicators and incredibly intelligent emotionally, of course.
00:59:47.014 --> 00:59:50.557
But the studies show that women generally are...
00:59:50.753 --> 00:59:52.556
stronger by numbers in that area.
00:59:52.637 --> 00:59:53.838
And men are more physical.
00:59:54.298 --> 00:59:57.764
And that comes from the hunter-gatherer experience, right?
00:59:57.804 --> 01:00:04.614
Where the men went out and hunted and gathered and tended to communicate differently.
01:00:05.436 --> 01:00:06.436
Men communicate differently.
01:00:06.476 --> 01:00:09.041
That's been my experience as well, outside of the studies.
01:00:09.501 --> 01:00:14.648
And women can often typically communicate differently, understand things differently.
01:00:15.570 --> 01:00:16.612
Doesn't mean they're not equal.
01:00:16.632 --> 01:00:17.693
So I don't agree completely.
01:00:18.306 --> 01:00:25.275
One of the couple things that you said, I don't agree with that we can't draw some assumptions or some lines along those differences.
01:00:26.115 --> 01:00:32.543
And, you know, without getting into the studies, that's another conversation.
01:00:32.583 --> 01:00:35.527
There are differences in the way men and women communicate.
01:00:36.447 --> 01:00:39.351
And again, I can speak from experience.
01:00:39.371 --> 01:00:44.478
There are also men who are intimidated by women being leaders, right?
01:00:44.641 --> 01:00:46.724
They don't like reporting to a woman, right?
01:00:46.784 --> 01:00:50.869
I've worked with people that don't like, I've even been told that, oh, she's a woman.
01:00:50.909 --> 01:00:52.351
He didn't know what she's doing.
01:00:52.391 --> 01:00:53.932
She can't lead that group, et cetera.
01:00:53.952 --> 01:00:56.076
And it turns out she did a fantastic job.
01:00:56.456 --> 01:01:00.882
I think you can call a woman to a bishop and she could do a lousy job or do a great job.
01:01:01.222 --> 01:01:02.543
Yeah.
01:01:03.425 --> 01:01:11.255
But I think that opportunity to serve in those callings should be extended to women.
01:01:12.135 --> 01:01:25.474
And instead of, you know, not calling someone because they're a man or a woman, but just call them because of you feel through inspiration they're the right person to do the job.
01:01:26.195 --> 01:01:27.295
That's how I think it should be.
01:01:27.456 --> 01:01:35.288
So let's consider women for these leadership callings and priesthood, extending the priesthood authority to them.
01:01:36.110 --> 01:01:40.536
And let's give them the equal opportunity to serve in these callings.
01:01:41.356 --> 01:02:00.478
And then when a bishop's praying about an individual, let's, through inspiration, select the right person, not just because of, you know, based on qualities and inspiration and the value that they would bring and the positive experience that they would bring to that particular calling.
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:06.568
So, yeah, so I agree on a lot of things, but some things that we have a different opinion on.
01:02:06.967 --> 01:02:07.849
What's the next question, Jim?
01:02:09.211 --> 01:02:12.938
A priesthood holder gets blessings simply by holding the priesthood.
01:02:15.554 --> 01:02:16.795
I don't even know what that means.
01:02:18.976 --> 01:02:19.038
Hmm.
01:02:20.798 --> 01:02:22.541
I think I said I didn't agree with it.
01:02:23.621 --> 01:02:25.704
I don't think just holding the priesthood is enough.
01:02:25.824 --> 01:02:27.505
I think you have to actually serve.
01:02:27.545 --> 01:02:28.907
Yeah,
01:02:29.108 --> 01:02:31.550
that's my position.
01:02:31.630 --> 01:02:32.690
I don't agree with that.
01:02:33.873 --> 01:02:35.333
The next one I think was an easy one.
01:02:35.434 --> 01:02:39.137
A priesthood leader has the right to make other people do things his way.
01:02:39.177 --> 01:02:42.782
That's absolutely against Section 121.
01:02:43.938 --> 01:02:45.920
That's the idea of unrighteous dominion.
01:02:48.744 --> 01:02:50.286
There's another interpretation of that.
01:02:50.887 --> 01:03:05.548
It could be unrighteous dominion, but if the priesthood leader, state president, bishop, presidency, and the president, especially keyholder, state president, keyholder for the state, bishop's a keyholder for the royal priesthood, state president for the royal priesthood.
01:03:06.110 --> 01:03:11.838
Ultimately, the council's council, as you know, ultimately it's the president that makes the decision.
01:03:12.673 --> 01:03:16.900
And then you have to get behind the president.
01:03:17.001 --> 01:03:17.300
That's it.
01:03:17.340 --> 01:03:18.001
You've got to be united.
01:03:18.603 --> 01:03:21.407
So a prescient leader has the right to make other people do the things their way.
01:03:21.467 --> 01:03:27.036
So ultimately, yes, is the other side to that coin.
01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:35.829
I can think of many experiences where that's happened, where the president makes a final decision and that's it.
01:03:35.949 --> 01:03:36.489
That's the deal.
01:03:37.411 --> 01:03:39.414
Well, okay.
01:03:41.518 --> 01:03:41.597
Yeah.
01:03:42.498 --> 01:03:48.003
Section 121, though, in talking about unrights, I guess it's the word make that I'm focusing on.
01:03:48.443 --> 01:03:49.465
I don't like the word make.
01:03:49.565 --> 01:03:54.530
I mean, our initiative, our focus as a state presidency in this state was finding the one, right?
01:03:55.610 --> 01:03:58.653
Now, as a council, I came up with something similar.
01:03:58.693 --> 01:04:00.396
The other council came up with something similar.
01:04:01.197 --> 01:04:04.420
The president, I think it was, came up with finding the one, if I'm not mistaken.
01:04:04.460 --> 01:04:08.764
And we had some debate, discussion around that.
01:04:08.884 --> 01:04:13.634
We all, I think the state president deciding then that's what it would be.
01:04:14.315 --> 01:04:16.297
That was the main focus of the presidency.
01:04:16.998 --> 01:04:19.762
I think that came from the president and we got behind the president.
01:04:19.802 --> 01:04:20.163
That was it.
01:04:20.422 --> 01:04:21.704
That wasn't unrighteous dominion.
01:04:21.784 --> 01:04:25.831
That was him, us sustaining him, supporting him.
01:04:25.891 --> 01:04:27.172
Yeah, we had variations.
01:04:27.934 --> 01:04:36.364
I can think of calling him when we're looking at people for callings where we have different opinions on people, different understanding and et cetera.
01:04:36.405 --> 01:04:37.367
We come with different names.
01:04:38.047 --> 01:04:41.235
Ultimately, the state president or the bishop makes the final choice.
01:04:41.255 --> 01:04:49.284
That doesn't mean it's unrighteous dominion, just that he's the key holder, you know, and they ultimately make the final decision.
01:04:49.324 --> 01:04:51.385
That's the structure and organization of the church.
01:04:51.947 --> 01:04:53.108
Someone has to make a decision.
01:04:53.869 --> 01:04:54.969
The bishop makes the decision.
01:04:56.351 --> 01:04:58.333
I say, all right, counselors get behind it.
01:04:58.353 --> 01:04:59.775
It doesn't mean it's unrighteous necessarily.
01:05:00.054 --> 01:05:04.619
It could be, but it doesn't necessarily automatically mean it's an unrighteous dominion.
01:05:06.202 --> 01:05:06.521
All right.
01:05:07.041 --> 01:05:11.188
All men should be respected and obeyed because only men can hold the priesthood.
01:05:12.250 --> 01:05:13.231
I think that's nonsense.
01:05:13.652 --> 01:05:14.594
That's nonsense, isn't it?
01:05:15.476 --> 01:05:17.599
So that's pretty easy.
01:05:17.679 --> 01:05:22.806
A priesthood blessing from a church leader is better than a priesthood blessing from a regular elder.
01:05:24.309 --> 01:05:33.416
Technically, no, but there are people in the church that would come to us as a state presidency— Or a bishop is one.
01:05:34.038 --> 01:05:38.782
A blessing from a bishop is more special from a blessing from the elder's quorum counselor.
01:05:39.543 --> 01:05:41.045
Oh, he's the bishop, right?
01:05:41.105 --> 01:05:42.507
He's more in tune because he's the bishop.
01:05:43.427 --> 01:05:43.768
Yeah.
01:05:44.347 --> 01:05:45.268
That's just not correct.
01:05:45.909 --> 01:05:47.871
I think there are a lot of people who believe that, though.
01:05:48.413 --> 01:05:49.434
Yes, they do believe that.
01:05:50.434 --> 01:05:50.715
So...
01:05:51.476 --> 01:05:52.076
Yeah.
01:05:52.916 --> 01:05:53.157
All right.
01:05:53.336 --> 01:05:54.998
Well, okay.
01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:57.402
We're about an hour and 10 minutes.
01:05:57.985 --> 01:05:59.688
We should split this into two podcasts.
01:06:00.009 --> 01:06:04.836
Well, so I want to give the rest of these questions the time they deserve.
01:06:04.876 --> 01:06:10.925
So I think we're deciding here that this is the first of a two-part podcast.
01:06:11.967 --> 01:06:22.543
So all of you listeners listening right now, we haven't even gotten halfway through the survey, but we're going to get through the rest of the survey in the next installment.
01:06:23.264 --> 01:06:32.492
But we're going to leave this one right now and And I'm excited because I'm really looking forward to discussing the rest of it with you.
01:06:32.512 --> 01:06:34.675
I think this is going to be a lot of fun.
01:06:34.695 --> 01:06:34.715
I
01:06:35.637 --> 01:06:35.896
agree.
01:06:36.077 --> 01:06:37.378
I'm fascinated by these questions.
01:06:37.478 --> 01:06:39.581
I'm interested in the intent behind the questions.
01:06:39.621 --> 01:06:40.782
What's the church trying to do?
01:06:40.802 --> 01:06:43.527
I think there's so many layers to these questions.
01:06:43.666 --> 01:06:44.628
Some are easy to answer.
01:06:44.668 --> 01:06:45.509
Some are kind of odd.
01:06:46.110 --> 01:06:47.190
Some are extraordinary.
01:06:47.231 --> 01:06:52.938
It's quite a mix of questions, and they deserve enough time and discussion to get through them.
01:06:53.018 --> 01:06:55.802
So I think breaking it up into two podcasts is a good idea.
01:06:56.481 --> 01:06:56.963
All right.
01:06:57.784 --> 01:06:59.525
Well, then that concludes part one.
01:07:00.266 --> 01:07:04.672
And we thank you very much, Ian, for your thoughtful answers.
01:07:05.954 --> 01:07:08.858
And thank you all to listening.
01:07:08.898 --> 01:07:18.632
And we look forward to having you join us next week for part two of survey questions on Inside Out.
01:07:20.094 --> 01:07:21.094
So thank you very much, Ian.
01:07:21.815 --> 01:07:22.317
Thank you, Jim.