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Forbes Books presents the Startup Science Podcast
with Gregory Shepherd, brought to you by
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Startup Science dot Io. Greg is
an entrepreneur who has built and sold twelve
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businesses. He's a recipient of four
private equity awards and is a featured ten
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X speaker and Forbes author. Here's
Gregory Shepherd. I'm back with Park how,
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the author of Brand Bewitchery. We've
been talking about how his business of
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story has helped big businesses clarify their
brand narrative and connect authentically to their audience.
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We also broke down the power of
parks simple ABT story framework and but
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therefore, now, Park, let's
get into failure. How do you deal
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with a scenario where you make a
big mistake and you need to use the
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ABT framework to make up for that
mistake. You come clean on the mistake.
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Right? I love this and I
was going for this, but then
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I blew it by doing this,
and this is what was the outcome of
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it. Therefore, here's how I'm
going to rectify the situation and move forward.
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There's your setup problem resolution dynamic again? Right? Is there a variation
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though between like if you're talking to
a customer or an investor or a mentor
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or an advisor you know, or
a partner or a vendor, like,
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are there variations to this or are
you using the same structure regardless of who
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you're talking to, at least in
the beginning of the conversation, you know,
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I use no variation for the framework
of itself. Now, the content's
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going to vary depending on who it
is, of course, but that set
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up, I really always like to
start with a statement of agreement. So
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say, I blew it with you, Greg, you know, I'm Greg.
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I was so excited to be on
your podcast, and it was great
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that we've got this set up,
but I completely blew the time zone and
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missed our at point of time.
Therefore, I'm hoping you're you know,
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you will be open and we can
still have a chance moving forward on this.
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So I always like to start with
a positive aspiration up top to get
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him nodding, yes, we agree, Then insert the problem. Now you
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can do it backwards. You can
start with the problem up top, but
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that statement of contradiction needs to contradict
the problem and but then introduces your solution.
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Therefore is the way forward? We
have found that that is not nearly
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as effective. For one major overriding
reason. When we start with the problem
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or what we perceive to be the
problem for our audience, sometimes we miss
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the mark and they'll say, Park, who the hell do you think you
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are? That's not the problem I
see at all. Or we're the outside
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consultant looking in and we know what
their problem is because we have the benefit
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of clarity from the outside looking in, but they haven't bought into the fact
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of our problem. They think that
their problem is still over here. So
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what we do when we lead with
the problem is we can oft and set
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up a divisive relationship that now I've
got to prove my point that this is
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what your problem is, and nobody
likes to be in that situation. So
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instead we always like to start with
aspiration, a shared vision. You know,
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can we agree that this is what
we all want? Yeah, yeah,
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you're you're dead on, but we
don't have it because of this problem.
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You're correct. Even if they start
thinking, you know, we're often
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the problem. At least we have
that shared statement of agreement or mindset going
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in, then we can work through
the problem. If you do this really
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well, you will win them over
to the way you see the problem versus
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the way they think the problem is. So set up problem resolution agreement.
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Yes, that's right, you know, conflict of o. Shit, here's
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our problem, therefore resolution, here's
the way for You could use it for
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crisis management, you could use it
for reputation. You could use it to
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educate. Like one of the things
is a lot of founders that are starting
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new businesses are disrupting something, which
means that they have to in some cases
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explain that there is a problem in
the first place. That people don't even
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know there's a problem, right,
So they have to start out by educating
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the customer so that they're aware of
something so that they're interested in buying.
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In that scenario, would you apply
ABT the same way or would you take
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a variable Because it sounds like it's
just an algorithm that you could use.
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It's beautiful because it's so simple,
you could use it for anything all the
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time. Yeah, well think about
this way. Say Greg, do you
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play an instrument? No, I
play the computer. The computer is manages
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all right. You call me up
one day, you see my piano back
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here, and you say, Park, I want to learn how to become
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a jazz musician. Awesome. I
need you to first learn the one four
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or five chord structure, Yan,
But therefore is that interesting that you see
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this tripepared structure to story everywhere.
I want you to play Mary had a
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little lamb. I want you to
play all these things one four five one
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and get that down. When you
get that down, you go out and
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you start playing for people, and
they go, well, check that out.
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I never knew Greg could play the
piano. That sounds really awesome.
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Now you start leveling up and you
go, park, I want to I
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want to have some more fun with
this. All right, You've got the
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structure down to the ABT or the
one four to five one. Now it's
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your job to start improvising on it, but only until you really nail that
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ABT or that one four five one
structure. So once you get good at
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this and get good at it takes
gosh. I've been doing a long time
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and I'm still learning how to do
it in lots of different ways. If
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you apply it to your work for
four to six weeks, and I'm talking
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about emails, you've got to write
emails anyways, write three emails a day
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starting with nan. But therefore it's
gonna require you to burn a few calories
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up front, spend some energy to
really get focused on your audience and your
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message. But you're gonna find number
one that it's a fabulous place to practice
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learning ABTS to build that narrative intuition. Number two, your emails will get
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responded to a lot faster because you
were so crystal clear you are not making
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that homo sapien storytelling monkey at the
other end of that email trying to decipher
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what the hell you're saying. And
number three, it has a built in
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called action to it. So the
thinking here again is going back to your
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initial question. Get the structure down
first, and then feel free to improvise
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on it once you start getting more
comfortable with it. And by the way,
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it's fabulous for ab testing. So
say you've got a LinkedIn campaign out
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there, go ahead and write your
typical LinkedIn post and then rewrite it as
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an end bet. Therefore, run
them side by side for a month,
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and I guarantee you you will see
four to six hundred percent increase four times
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to six times increase in engagement simply
because you put it in this narrative framework
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that is just so beautiful It's like
I took my daughter to self defense and
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it you know, there's a lot
of moves in self defense, right,
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and the instructor was like, listen, I'm gonna tell you three punches,
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three blocks, and three kicks,
and once you master those, you can
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put them in different combinations. And
it's like it's the same kind of thing,
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right, You master those and then
you learn how to do variations of
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those things when appropriate. So people
need to master the ABT, right,
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and then from there start doing their
own versions of the ABT. I totally
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get it. Let me digress for
a second and ask you a different question,
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which is I'm really interested in the
answer here. Who do you think
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as a master at ABT the in
the like if you look at the Elon
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Mosk and the Steve Jobs and all
the guys that are out there, the
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Bezos and that, Larry Ellison and
Mark Bennioff and all these you know,
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classic CEOs. Who who would you
say, or leaders, I should say,
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or thought leaders whatever? Who would
you say? Is got this down?
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Richard? Yeah, he does it
naturally. Steve Jobs did it absolutely
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naturally. In fact, there's a
video out there on YouTube. Bill Gates
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and Steve Jobs sitting at some conference
and they were asked the question about where
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why did Apple go to Microsoft for
their floating points something rather, and they
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first went to Gates, and Gates
just bumbled through this thing, and just
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when you see Jobs in the background, he gets more and more frustrated as
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Gates is trying to explain this,
and Jobs go, now, let me
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tell the story. And he literally
took all that logical mumbo jumbo and told
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the story of wasn't Nac who wrote
this great code, but it was just
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it wasn't floating point, and he
kept asking him to do it, but
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he wanted to do it. Everybody
was asking for it, and therefore they
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went to Microsoft to be able to
use that. When he tells that,
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you can watch this video online.
It's the whole piece is about ninety seconds
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long. But you see a marvelous
example of the left brain non narrative communicator
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trying to connect with an audience,
and all he ends up doing is confusing
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them to the right brain storyteller.
And as you hear Gates or Jobs tell
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that story, you will hear there
are two embedded abts in it, and
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it's that perfect five primal elements of
a short story. Now, Jobs is
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just doing this intuitively because he didn't
know anything about the ABT or these elements
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of storytelling. He was just a
gifted intuitive storyteller. And greg My argument
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is all of us, as Homo
sapiens, are intuitive storytellers. It's what
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separates us from all other beings in
the world. We think, plan,
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organize, and act in story.
What I want people to do is become
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intentional about it by using this simple
and but therefore framework or algorithm that they
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can use to make our messages land
right the first time every time. So
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a couple of things here. So
I really want to give you an opportunity
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to talk about your books. And
I want to tell everybody that I was
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so convinced after talking with Park that
we actually are integrating this into the Visionaries
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platform by Gregory Shepherd, which is
the platform that all the founders can learn
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from and stuff we talk about.
It's actually being integrated in there. That's
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how good this is. But he's
also got a couple of books. Maybe
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you can talk about a couple of
the books that you have, and you
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have your own podcast, and maybe
use this opportunity to plug some stuff I'm
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all the number one Gregory. I
am so delighted to be a part of
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your program. I'm a huge believer
of course in the startup world. I
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mean that's where all of our vision
and new techniques and technologies come from.
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So thank you for allowing me to
be able to tease this to your attendees.
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Yeah. I've got a couple of
books out. My first book I
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wrote, it's called Brandy Witchery and
it uses my ten steps story cycle system
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that I got from Hollywood from Joseph
Campbell. And the hero's journey wasn't that.
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I love Joseph Campbell. That's so
cool And I saw that. You
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know how this all came about real
quick because I was running my ad agency
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out here in Phoenix, Arizona,
and as the Internet hit and social media
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started blowing up, I realized that
the way we used to brand and market
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community communicate companies no longer work.
And I was fortunate because our middle child,
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our son, Parker, was going
to film school at Chapman University,
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a very prestigious film school from two
thousand and six twenty ten. Graduated.
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Now he's down in Austin, Texas
working with virtual reality I said, Parker,
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send me your books and your recorded
lectures when you're done with them,
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since I'm paying for them. Because
I want to know what does Hollywood know
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about story and story structure to be
able to compete in you know, the
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most competitive storytelling market the world.
LA. That's when I first learned about
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Joseph Campbell and the Hero's Journey and
Greg, it hit me right upside the
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head. I'm like, oh my
god, this here's a map to storytelling
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and communication. How come this has
never been taught in any communication course or
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advertising program that I've been part of. That's when I boiled it down and
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we started using it for brand development, brand narrative strategy develope because you know,
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the Hero's journey is kind of it's
a way. It takes some time
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to get it down, but you've
got it to the point that it can
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be digested, and the hero's journey
is a one and done circle. Right.
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You've got a hero in their ordinary
world, they have a call to
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adventure. They go to this extraordinary
world. They get put through trials and
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tribulations, they learn something about themselves, like it leveled up the return back
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home. Well, I took that
and said, you know what this is
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actually in business, really a narrative
spiral. It expands with the telling of
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your story to expand engagement. So
it's not a one and done thing at
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all. The ideas did by people
into your story get him as we repeat,
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customers, and more importantly baby is
to get them sharing your story with
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their world. Because there's no more
powerful form of advertising than free word of
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mouth marketing. Right, we can
all agree to that. So I was
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teaching that and worked with a lot
of brands on it, and then I
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found the end. But therefore,
about ten years ago, through my good
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friend doctor Randy Olson, Harvard evolutionary
PhD scientists turn USC film school graduate,
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he's written several books on using narrative
in the science world to be able to
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communicate their big complex ideas, simplify
them, clarify them so the rest of
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the world can learn. And when
I found the ABT in his second book,
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again written for the science community,
I'm going, oh my god,
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Greg, this is like the holy
grail for branding and marketing. So about
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being able to take a complex pitch
message and simplifying it from our audience's interview,
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giving you that narrative framework that that
limbic buying brain loves and I'm like,
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is this thing too good to be
true? And so I started researching
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it. You know, think about
nursery rhymes. Almost every memorable nursery rhyme
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isn't in. But therefore, when
I say nursery rhyme, do you have
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one that pops to mind? Yeah? I mean I like Doctor Seus's stuff.
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Yeah, But I always just say
when you were talking just now,
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I was just thinking about, like, there's something immensely valuable. I mean,
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first, let's talk about your genius. Right. You have taken and
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studied all these different ways to tell
a story, and then you have digested
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these and compressed them into and distilled
it down to a very simple way of
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teaching that. And then you've created
a way to go about this in a
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book and outside of a book.
It's genius to begin with. Anybody that
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gets involved here, it's not like
you're just getting you know, this Park's
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park Owl's approach to this, right, You're getting every everybody's approached to this
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distill down for you. There's that's
pretty pretty amazing, man, that's freaking
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pretty awesome. This. I just
have to say that I'm just like,
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this is it's It's one thing,
you know, like when I wrote the
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book on the startup life cycle,
I studied startups for thirty years and read
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all these books and you know,
learned all these different operating systems, all
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this stuff to do it, and
then people get get all of that experience
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distill down. It's the same thing
with you. It is a It takes
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a special genius to to understand the
opportunity. Like you were talking about that,
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you read it and you were like, oh, this is perfect brand.
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Not everybody could do that, right, So you as a listener,
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you're getting to take advantage of his
genius and all of the study that he
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all all the studies that he did, and the people that came up with
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those. It's pretty special. Well
thank you, Greg. You've got Steve
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Jobs right over your shoulder there,
so he's obviously a hero in your life.
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We're right along Einstein there. Would
you say that Jobs was an inventor
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or an integrator? He's definitely an
inventor. I mean he's a visionary,
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right, he wouldn't be without him. You know, I have a lot
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of arguments with because I used to
be a coder, right, so you
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know you have coders to go.
Well, he didn't write any code,
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and I was like, code is
worthless until somebody can tell a story about
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it and get it sold. Right. They're both necessary. So on one
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side you have Einstein, who is
the integrator, and on the other side
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you have Steve Jobs, who is
the visionary. You look at Steve Jobs
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as much more in terms of his
ability to create and maintain and monetized business
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as compared to Einstein, which everybody
else did it on his behalf, you
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know, or I think about Jobs
a lot of times people make the argument
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that he was more of an integrator. He did invent like the iPhone,
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but he didn't invent a lot of
the different parts of that iPhone. He
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saw them in the world and said, if we take some of this,
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integrated with some of this, and
integrated with some of this VOI law,
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we have invented a brand new product. It's kind of where I was going
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with that, you know what I
mean. Yeah, Yeah, if you
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look at it from the writer who
wrote that book rocket Fuel, then you
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see it. Then you see it
that way. Yeah, sorry, I
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was That's where I was going to
visionary person because I haven't invented anything here
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the and but therefore has been around
since the beginning of time. The hero's
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journey, I mean, in the
very first recorded book of Gilgamesh follows the
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hero's journey precisely. It's just this
archetype, you know, it's a structured
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a narrative that we've always seen and
used around us. Because people will argue
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we can embrace the hero's journey because
it's simply a reflection of how we experience
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life. So when we see it
in movies, it's just inherent in our
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story of structure. I just simply
integrated that into the business world. Now,
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the hero's journey is way too woo
woo for lots and lots of B
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to B business mine and I say
to them, you know, B to
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B doesn't necessarily mean business to business. It quite often means boring to board.
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Why would you bor your audience?
You know, when you have this
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marvelous business offering, Use these templates
that we've seen in the world since the
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beginning of time, and we'll go
back to real quick on like the nursery
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rhyming thing. Here's one Lillamus Muffett
sat out a tuffet eating your curds in
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way along game of Spider sat down
besider and frighten Miss muffoot Away. Perfect
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and but therefore, and people would
argue apart, there's and button therefore don't
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even exist in that I say,
yes, but they're all implied in the
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framework. For instance, Lillimus Muffett
sat out a toffet and she was eating
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her curds in way. That's our
setup. That's act one. That's agreement.
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Now here's the complication. But a
long game of Spider who sat down
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beside her, which triggers our limbic
problem solving brain begs the question what all
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happen next? Leads to our statement
of consequence. Therefore, frightened little miss
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buffet Away. You know, I
mean, you see it everywhere in the
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triparic structure to story, So why
don't we use it in founders pitches and
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explaining our complex ideas and making them
very simple from the point of view from
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our audience and underscoring the outcome.
What is the benefit of this without overwriting
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or overdoing what we're making in the
widgets that are so near and dear and
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special to our hearts, Nobody cares. They just want to know what do
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those widgets lead to? What is
that out? Yeah, you're right.
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I always tell founders that, you
know, they oftentimes forget. You know,
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there's the ICTICP, the ideal customer
profile, which is the business,
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and then there's the persona, which
is the person. And a lot of
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times when they do marketing, they
focus on the business and they forget that
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they're having to convince a person.
The person isn't always in favor of what
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the business is in favor of,
especially if it's going to custom their job
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or create stress or make them go
to their CFO and ask for more money
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or whatever those sort of things.
Right, it becomes so this is a
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way to talk to the person and
then turn that person into your champion and
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then they're willing to march march through
the battle with you in order to get
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the thing to the people that need
to make it happen for the company.
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Gregor, are you familiar with Christopher
Lockhead. He is a brilliant, brilliant
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branding mind category design mine up at
Silicon Valley. Yeah, I went to
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it. He was a keynote at
a lecture I went to Yeah, Yeah,
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and he wrote with his partners one
of my favorite all time branding books,
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especially for the tech sector, called
Play Bigger. And he had me
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on his podcast about a year ago, and I introduced to him and he's
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all about p OV that point of
view of where your brand and how you
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can design a category become the category
king by being the first to market with
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it and really owning it. And
I showed him, told him about the
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ABT. Then the very next day
he puts it in a text. He
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uses the ABT for a text,
sends it out to the world, takes
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a screenshot of it, and sends
it to me and he goes, I
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don't know what the hell this is
or how it works, but here's the
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first thing that has happened to me
using the ABT. Let me quickly just
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read the tweet for you. Says
most entrepreneurs would love to design a new
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category and build a billion dollar business. There's his statement or agreement. But
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there is so much startup bullshit on
Twitter, it's hard to know who to
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listen to. Therefore, meet David
Sachs. He knows a few things.
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And then there's a link to his
show Interviewing David Sachs. So perfect ABT
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but here's the thing. In under
six hours, Christopher Lockhead got over sixty
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thousand, almost seventy thousand engagements on
that one tweet. And now this is
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a very prolific social media contributor out
there. And he goes, park,
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I have never seen anything like this
before. And now he uses it to
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set up his podcast interviews, his
sub stack articles, he uses the ABT
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throughout. There's a good example of
the power of it in your world from
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a guy who's made a very nice
career out of creating povs or category designs.
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And how the ABT does, as
he says, fantastic double click on
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their approach to category design. So
if we were to give then the audience
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some resources, first of all,
how did they get in touch with you?
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What books should they buy? Is
there? You know? What blogs
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like? What are the all the
resources that they need to learn ABT.
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I'm sure anybody that's listening right now
is just sitting there going Holy hid And
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how do I get a hold of
this thing? So I've got businesses,
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story podcasts. I've been doing it
for eight years. I have been rolling
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out a special series on brand Bewitchery
instead of me just sitting down and trying
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to read this book and putting out
the audio book all in one fell swoop.
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What I did is I decided to
chunk it and every episode, starting
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with episode number four twenty, I
read you one chapter and give you a
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bunch of examples so you can sit
down and listen to Brandy Witchery and your
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drive home. I've got halfway through
the book, so that's one place to
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go on my podcast as well.
Episode number four hundred is I take the
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listener through my ten year journey with
the ABT, have doctor Randy Olson on
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who first introduced me to it,
and a number of other people that have
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used it, and it's a way
to understand all of the different applications of
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the ABT. That's a great place
to go. Third thing I'd say is
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I've got this book that I co
authored, and I mean it's a little
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one with doctor Randy Olson, and
it's a quick little hand guide, if
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you will. As you are sitting
down a right ABTS. It's called the
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Narrative Gym for Business, and as
you start applying the ABT, this will
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give you a lot more case studies
and examples and take you on a much
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deeper dive than we could do today
on how to use the ABT ABT two
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ohoe, ABT three zero one,
and then of course your course, we'll
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be teaching the ABT, the five
primal elements of a short story for big
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impact, and the ten steps story
cycle system that you can use for presentations,
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pitches, and long form communications right
with your startup science course right on.
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So we'll put some of that stuff
into the show notes. And man,
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I gotta tell you, I just
had a great time talking to you
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at the show and listening to you
and this was was really fantastic and I
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00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:42.480
think it's a real honor it.
Like I said, it's you're so humble,
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00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:48.680
and it's real easy to forget about
how much talent it takes to recognize
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an opportunity and then execute on it. And then I mean, it's easy
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to make something simple complicated, it's
really hard to make something complicated simple,
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and you've mastered that. And I'm
you know, just gratitude, Park.
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It's a it's a real benefit for
everybody to have you around and I appreciate
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your time. Well, Greg,
thank you so much for being here or
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00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:14.759
for me being with you. I'm
so used to hosting my own show.
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00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:18.079
I'm thanking you for being in my
yell, which you were on a few
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00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.799
weeks ago for a month or so
ago. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited
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00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:23.599
to be able to talk to you. Thank you so much. Have a
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00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:27.480
great day. Thanks man, you
two. And that's it for another episode
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00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:33.960
of the startup Science podcast Founders.
As a thank you for leading the changes
350
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:38.079
in our world, I'm offering free
access to my startup science platform, Visionaries
351
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:44.079
by Gregory Shepherd, a one stop
shop for founders. It has everything from
352
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:48.279
the Startup Academy to investor Match,
grant Finder, pitch Finder, virtually everything
353
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.400
in the startup ecosystem there for you. Go to Gregory Shepherd dot com,
354
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:59.039
click on Visionaries to get access and
use the code Founders all capitals for free
355
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.559
access to the platform. Check it
out for yourself and if you enjoyed the
356
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:06.960
show, we would love it if
you could subscribe so you never missed an
357
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:10.400
episode. I'll see you next time
and I'm mina stay with my friends.
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00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.880
This startup science podcast with Gregory Shepherd
is brought to you by startup science dot
359
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:22.200
Io. Founders can log on to
startup science dot io and use code Forbes
360
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:27.720
to get free access to connect and
find out more about greg Go to Gregory
361
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.839
shephard dot com. The Startup Science
Podcast is a production of Forbes Books.
1
00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:07.080
Forbes Books presents the Startup Science Podcast
with Gregory Shepherd, brought to you by
2
00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:13.199
Startup Science dot Io. Greg is
an entrepreneur who has built and sold twelve
3
00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:18.719
businesses. He's a recipient of four
private equity awards and is a featured ten
4
00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:24.879
X speaker and Forbes author. Here's
Gregory Shepherd. I'm back with Park how,
5
00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:30.000
the author of Brand Bewitchery. We've
been talking about how his business of
6
00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:36.759
story has helped big businesses clarify their
brand narrative and connect authentically to their audience.
7
00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:43.000
We also broke down the power of
parks simple ABT story framework and but
8
00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:48.640
therefore, now, Park, let's
get into failure. How do you deal
9
00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:53.640
with a scenario where you make a
big mistake and you need to use the
10
00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:59.000
ABT framework to make up for that
mistake. You come clean on the mistake.
11
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Right? I love this and I
was going for this, but then
12
00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:06.319
I blew it by doing this,
and this is what was the outcome of
13
00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:10.319
it. Therefore, here's how I'm
going to rectify the situation and move forward.
14
00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.239
There's your setup problem resolution dynamic again? Right? Is there a variation
15
00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:19.560
though between like if you're talking to
a customer or an investor or a mentor
16
00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:25.439
or an advisor you know, or
a partner or a vendor, like,
17
00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:30.120
are there variations to this or are
you using the same structure regardless of who
18
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:32.599
you're talking to, at least in
the beginning of the conversation, you know,
19
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:38.519
I use no variation for the framework
of itself. Now, the content's
20
00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:42.439
going to vary depending on who it
is, of course, but that set
21
00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.719
up, I really always like to
start with a statement of agreement. So
22
00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.480
say, I blew it with you, Greg, you know, I'm Greg.
23
00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.400
I was so excited to be on
your podcast, and it was great
24
00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:56.480
that we've got this set up,
but I completely blew the time zone and
25
00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.640
missed our at point of time.
Therefore, I'm hoping you're you know,
26
00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.519
you will be open and we can
still have a chance moving forward on this.
27
00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:09.479
So I always like to start with
a positive aspiration up top to get
28
00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:14.360
him nodding, yes, we agree, Then insert the problem. Now you
29
00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:16.879
can do it backwards. You can
start with the problem up top, but
30
00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:23.439
that statement of contradiction needs to contradict
the problem and but then introduces your solution.
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Therefore is the way forward? We
have found that that is not nearly
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00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:34.719
as effective. For one major overriding
reason. When we start with the problem
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00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.240
or what we perceive to be the
problem for our audience, sometimes we miss
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00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:42.199
the mark and they'll say, Park, who the hell do you think you
35
00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:45.719
are? That's not the problem I
see at all. Or we're the outside
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00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:49.759
consultant looking in and we know what
their problem is because we have the benefit
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00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.800
of clarity from the outside looking in, but they haven't bought into the fact
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00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:57.039
of our problem. They think that
their problem is still over here. So
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00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.400
what we do when we lead with
the problem is we can oft and set
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00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:05.719
up a divisive relationship that now I've
got to prove my point that this is
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00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.840
what your problem is, and nobody
likes to be in that situation. So
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00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:14.919
instead we always like to start with
aspiration, a shared vision. You know,
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00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:17.759
can we agree that this is what
we all want? Yeah, yeah,
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00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.599
you're you're dead on, but we
don't have it because of this problem.
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You're correct. Even if they start
thinking, you know, we're often
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the problem. At least we have
that shared statement of agreement or mindset going
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in, then we can work through
the problem. If you do this really
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well, you will win them over
to the way you see the problem versus
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the way they think the problem is. So set up problem resolution agreement.
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Yes, that's right, you know, conflict of o. Shit, here's
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our problem, therefore resolution, here's
the way for You could use it for
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crisis management, you could use it
for reputation. You could use it to
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educate. Like one of the things
is a lot of founders that are starting
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new businesses are disrupting something, which
means that they have to in some cases
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explain that there is a problem in
the first place. That people don't even
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know there's a problem, right,
So they have to start out by educating
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the customer so that they're aware of
something so that they're interested in buying.
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In that scenario, would you apply
ABT the same way or would you take
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a variable Because it sounds like it's
just an algorithm that you could use.
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It's beautiful because it's so simple,
you could use it for anything all the
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time. Yeah, well think about
this way. Say Greg, do you
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play an instrument? No, I
play the computer. The computer is manages
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all right. You call me up
one day, you see my piano back
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here, and you say, Park, I want to learn how to become
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a jazz musician. Awesome. I
need you to first learn the one four
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or five chord structure, Yan,
But therefore is that interesting that you see
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this tripepared structure to story everywhere.
I want you to play Mary had a
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little lamb. I want you to
play all these things one four five one
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and get that down. When you
get that down, you go out and
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you start playing for people, and
they go, well, check that out.
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I never knew Greg could play the
piano. That sounds really awesome.
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Now you start leveling up and you
go, park, I want to I
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want to have some more fun with
this. All right, You've got the
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structure down to the ABT or the
one four to five one. Now it's
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your job to start improvising on it, but only until you really nail that
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ABT or that one four five one
structure. So once you get good at
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this and get good at it takes
gosh. I've been doing a long time
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and I'm still learning how to do
it in lots of different ways. If
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you apply it to your work for
four to six weeks, and I'm talking
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about emails, you've got to write
emails anyways, write three emails a day
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starting with nan. But therefore it's
gonna require you to burn a few calories
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up front, spend some energy to
really get focused on your audience and your
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message. But you're gonna find number
one that it's a fabulous place to practice
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learning ABTS to build that narrative intuition. Number two, your emails will get
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responded to a lot faster because you
were so crystal clear you are not making
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that homo sapien storytelling monkey at the
other end of that email trying to decipher
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what the hell you're saying. And
number three, it has a built in
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called action to it. So the
thinking here again is going back to your
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initial question. Get the structure down
first, and then feel free to improvise
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on it once you start getting more
comfortable with it. And by the way,
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it's fabulous for ab testing. So
say you've got a LinkedIn campaign out
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there, go ahead and write your
typical LinkedIn post and then rewrite it as
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an end bet. Therefore, run
them side by side for a month,
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and I guarantee you you will see
four to six hundred percent increase four times
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to six times increase in engagement simply
because you put it in this narrative framework
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that is just so beautiful It's like
I took my daughter to self defense and
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it you know, there's a lot
of moves in self defense, right,
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and the instructor was like, listen, I'm gonna tell you three punches,
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three blocks, and three kicks,
and once you master those, you can
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put them in different combinations. And
it's like it's the same kind of thing,
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right, You master those and then
you learn how to do variations of
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those things when appropriate. So people
need to master the ABT, right,
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and then from there start doing their
own versions of the ABT. I totally
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get it. Let me digress for
a second and ask you a different question,
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which is I'm really interested in the
answer here. Who do you think
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as a master at ABT the in
the like if you look at the Elon
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Mosk and the Steve Jobs and all
the guys that are out there, the
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Bezos and that, Larry Ellison and
Mark Bennioff and all these you know,
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classic CEOs. Who who would you
say, or leaders, I should say,
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or thought leaders whatever? Who would
you say? Is got this down?
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Richard? Yeah, he does it
naturally. Steve Jobs did it absolutely
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naturally. In fact, there's a
video out there on YouTube. Bill Gates
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and Steve Jobs sitting at some conference
and they were asked the question about where
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why did Apple go to Microsoft for
their floating points something rather, and they
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first went to Gates, and Gates
just bumbled through this thing, and just
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when you see Jobs in the background, he gets more and more frustrated as
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Gates is trying to explain this,
and Jobs go, now, let me
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tell the story. And he literally
took all that logical mumbo jumbo and told
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the story of wasn't Nac who wrote
this great code, but it was just
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it wasn't floating point, and he
kept asking him to do it, but
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he wanted to do it. Everybody
was asking for it, and therefore they
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went to Microsoft to be able to
use that. When he tells that,
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you can watch this video online.
It's the whole piece is about ninety seconds
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long. But you see a marvelous
example of the left brain non narrative communicator
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trying to connect with an audience,
and all he ends up doing is confusing
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them to the right brain storyteller.
And as you hear Gates or Jobs tell
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that story, you will hear there
are two embedded abts in it, and
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it's that perfect five primal elements of
a short story. Now, Jobs is
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just doing this intuitively because he didn't
know anything about the ABT or these elements
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of storytelling. He was just a
gifted intuitive storyteller. And greg My argument
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is all of us, as Homo
sapiens, are intuitive storytellers. It's what
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separates us from all other beings in
the world. We think, plan,
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organize, and act in story.
What I want people to do is become
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intentional about it by using this simple
and but therefore framework or algorithm that they
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can use to make our messages land
right the first time every time. So
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a couple of things here. So
I really want to give you an opportunity
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to talk about your books. And
I want to tell everybody that I was
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so convinced after talking with Park that
we actually are integrating this into the Visionaries
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platform by Gregory Shepherd, which is
the platform that all the founders can learn
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from and stuff we talk about.
It's actually being integrated in there. That's
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how good this is. But he's
also got a couple of books. Maybe
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you can talk about a couple of
the books that you have, and you
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have your own podcast, and maybe
use this opportunity to plug some stuff I'm
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all the number one Gregory. I
am so delighted to be a part of
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your program. I'm a huge believer
of course in the startup world. I
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mean that's where all of our vision
and new techniques and technologies come from.
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So thank you for allowing me to
be able to tease this to your attendees.
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Yeah. I've got a couple of
books out. My first book I
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wrote, it's called Brandy Witchery and
it uses my ten steps story cycle system
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that I got from Hollywood from Joseph
Campbell. And the hero's journey wasn't that.
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I love Joseph Campbell. That's so
cool And I saw that. You
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know how this all came about real
quick because I was running my ad agency
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out here in Phoenix, Arizona,
and as the Internet hit and social media
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started blowing up, I realized that
the way we used to brand and market
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community communicate companies no longer work.
And I was fortunate because our middle child,
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our son, Parker, was going
to film school at Chapman University,
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a very prestigious film school from two
thousand and six twenty ten. Graduated.
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Now he's down in Austin, Texas
working with virtual reality I said, Parker,
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send me your books and your recorded
lectures when you're done with them,
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since I'm paying for them. Because
I want to know what does Hollywood know
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about story and story structure to be
able to compete in you know, the
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most competitive storytelling market the world.
LA. That's when I first learned about
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Joseph Campbell and the Hero's Journey and
Greg, it hit me right upside the
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head. I'm like, oh my
god, this here's a map to storytelling
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and communication. How come this has
never been taught in any communication course or
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advertising program that I've been part of. That's when I boiled it down and
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we started using it for brand development, brand narrative strategy develope because you know,
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the Hero's journey is kind of it's
a way. It takes some time
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to get it down, but you've
got it to the point that it can
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be digested, and the hero's journey
is a one and done circle. Right.
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You've got a hero in their ordinary
world, they have a call to
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adventure. They go to this extraordinary
world. They get put through trials and
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tribulations, they learn something about themselves, like it leveled up the return back
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home. Well, I took that
and said, you know what this is
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actually in business, really a narrative
spiral. It expands with the telling of
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your story to expand engagement. So
it's not a one and done thing at
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all. The ideas did by people
into your story get him as we repeat,
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customers, and more importantly baby is
to get them sharing your story with
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their world. Because there's no more
powerful form of advertising than free word of
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mouth marketing. Right, we can
all agree to that. So I was
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teaching that and worked with a lot
of brands on it, and then I
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found the end. But therefore,
about ten years ago, through my good
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friend doctor Randy Olson, Harvard evolutionary
PhD scientists turn USC film school graduate,
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he's written several books on using narrative
in the science world to be able to
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communicate their big complex ideas, simplify
them, clarify them so the rest of
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the world can learn. And when
I found the ABT in his second book,
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again written for the science community,
I'm going, oh my god,
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Greg, this is like the holy
grail for branding and marketing. So about
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being able to take a complex pitch
message and simplifying it from our audience's interview,
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giving you that narrative framework that that
limbic buying brain loves and I'm like,
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is this thing too good to be
true? And so I started researching
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it. You know, think about
nursery rhymes. Almost every memorable nursery rhyme
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isn't in. But therefore, when
I say nursery rhyme, do you have
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one that pops to mind? Yeah? I mean I like Doctor Seus's stuff.
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Yeah, But I always just say
when you were talking just now,
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I was just thinking about, like, there's something immensely valuable. I mean,
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first, let's talk about your genius. Right. You have taken and
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studied all these different ways to tell
a story, and then you have digested
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these and compressed them into and distilled
it down to a very simple way of
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teaching that. And then you've created
a way to go about this in a
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book and outside of a book.
It's genius to begin with. Anybody that
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gets involved here, it's not like
you're just getting you know, this Park's
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park Owl's approach to this, right, You're getting every everybody's approached to this
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distill down for you. There's that's
pretty pretty amazing, man, that's freaking
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pretty awesome. This. I just
have to say that I'm just like,
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this is it's It's one thing,
you know, like when I wrote the
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book on the startup life cycle,
I studied startups for thirty years and read
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all these books and you know,
learned all these different operating systems, all
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this stuff to do it, and
then people get get all of that experience
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distill down. It's the same thing
with you. It is a It takes
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a special genius to to understand the
opportunity. Like you were talking about that,
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you read it and you were like, oh, this is perfect brand.
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Not everybody could do that, right, So you as a listener,
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you're getting to take advantage of his
genius and all of the study that he
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all all the studies that he did, and the people that came up with
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those. It's pretty special. Well
thank you, Greg. You've got Steve
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Jobs right over your shoulder there,
so he's obviously a hero in your life.
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We're right along Einstein there. Would
you say that Jobs was an inventor
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or an integrator? He's definitely an
inventor. I mean he's a visionary,
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right, he wouldn't be without him. You know, I have a lot
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of arguments with because I used to
be a coder, right, so you
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know you have coders to go.
Well, he didn't write any code,
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and I was like, code is
worthless until somebody can tell a story about
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it and get it sold. Right. They're both necessary. So on one
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side you have Einstein, who is
the integrator, and on the other side
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you have Steve Jobs, who is
the visionary. You look at Steve Jobs
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as much more in terms of his
ability to create and maintain and monetized business
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as compared to Einstein, which everybody
else did it on his behalf, you
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know, or I think about Jobs
a lot of times people make the argument
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that he was more of an integrator. He did invent like the iPhone,
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but he didn't invent a lot of
the different parts of that iPhone. He
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saw them in the world and said, if we take some of this,
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integrated with some of this, and
integrated with some of this VOI law,
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we have invented a brand new product. It's kind of where I was going
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with that, you know what I
mean. Yeah, Yeah, if you
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look at it from the writer who
wrote that book rocket Fuel, then you
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see it. Then you see it
that way. Yeah, sorry, I
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was That's where I was going to
visionary person because I haven't invented anything here
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the and but therefore has been around
since the beginning of time. The hero's
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journey, I mean, in the
very first recorded book of Gilgamesh follows the
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hero's journey precisely. It's just this
archetype, you know, it's a structured
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a narrative that we've always seen and
used around us. Because people will argue
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we can embrace the hero's journey because
it's simply a reflection of how we experience
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life. So when we see it
in movies, it's just inherent in our
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story of structure. I just simply
integrated that into the business world. Now,
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the hero's journey is way too woo
woo for lots and lots of B
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to B business mine and I say
to them, you know, B to
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B doesn't necessarily mean business to business. It quite often means boring to board.
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Why would you bor your audience?
You know, when you have this
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marvelous business offering, Use these templates
that we've seen in the world since the
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beginning of time, and we'll go
back to real quick on like the nursery
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rhyming thing. Here's one Lillamus Muffett
sat out a tuffet eating your curds in
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way along game of Spider sat down
besider and frighten Miss muffoot Away. Perfect
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and but therefore, and people would
argue apart, there's and button therefore don't
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even exist in that I say,
yes, but they're all implied in the
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framework. For instance, Lillimus Muffett
sat out a toffet and she was eating
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her curds in way. That's our
setup. That's act one. That's agreement.
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Now here's the complication. But a
long game of Spider who sat down
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beside her, which triggers our limbic
problem solving brain begs the question what all
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happen next? Leads to our statement
of consequence. Therefore, frightened little miss
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buffet Away. You know, I
mean, you see it everywhere in the
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triparic structure to story, So why
don't we use it in founders pitches and
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explaining our complex ideas and making them
very simple from the point of view from
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our audience and underscoring the outcome.
What is the benefit of this without overwriting
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or overdoing what we're making in the
widgets that are so near and dear and
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special to our hearts, Nobody cares. They just want to know what do
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those widgets lead to? What is
that out? Yeah, you're right.
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I always tell founders that, you
know, they oftentimes forget. You know,
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there's the ICTICP, the ideal customer
profile, which is the business,
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and then there's the persona, which
is the person. And a lot of
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times when they do marketing, they
focus on the business and they forget that
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they're having to convince a person.
The person isn't always in favor of what
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the business is in favor of,
especially if it's going to custom their job
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or create stress or make them go
to their CFO and ask for more money
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or whatever those sort of things.
Right, it becomes so this is a
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way to talk to the person and
then turn that person into your champion and
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then they're willing to march march through
the battle with you in order to get
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the thing to the people that need
to make it happen for the company.
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Gregor, are you familiar with Christopher
Lockhead. He is a brilliant, brilliant
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branding mind category design mine up at
Silicon Valley. Yeah, I went to
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it. He was a keynote at
a lecture I went to Yeah, Yeah,
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and he wrote with his partners one
of my favorite all time branding books,
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especially for the tech sector, called
Play Bigger. And he had me
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on his podcast about a year ago, and I introduced to him and he's
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all about p OV that point of
view of where your brand and how you
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can design a category become the category
king by being the first to market with
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it and really owning it. And
I showed him, told him about the
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ABT. Then the very next day
he puts it in a text. He
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uses the ABT for a text,
sends it out to the world, takes
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a screenshot of it, and sends
it to me and he goes, I
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don't know what the hell this is
or how it works, but here's the
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first thing that has happened to me
using the ABT. Let me quickly just
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read the tweet for you. Says
most entrepreneurs would love to design a new
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category and build a billion dollar business. There's his statement or agreement. But
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there is so much startup bullshit on
Twitter, it's hard to know who to
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listen to. Therefore, meet David
Sachs. He knows a few things.
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And then there's a link to his
show Interviewing David Sachs. So perfect ABT
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but here's the thing. In under
six hours, Christopher Lockhead got over sixty
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thousand, almost seventy thousand engagements on
that one tweet. And now this is
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a very prolific social media contributor out
there. And he goes, park,
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I have never seen anything like this
before. And now he uses it to
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set up his podcast interviews, his
sub stack articles, he uses the ABT
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throughout. There's a good example of
the power of it in your world from
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a guy who's made a very nice
career out of creating povs or category designs.
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And how the ABT does, as
he says, fantastic double click on
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their approach to category design. So
if we were to give then the audience
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some resources, first of all,
how did they get in touch with you?
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What books should they buy? Is
there? You know? What blogs
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like? What are the all the
resources that they need to learn ABT.
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I'm sure anybody that's listening right now
is just sitting there going Holy hid And
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how do I get a hold of
this thing? So I've got businesses,
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story podcasts. I've been doing it
for eight years. I have been rolling
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out a special series on brand Bewitchery
instead of me just sitting down and trying
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to read this book and putting out
the audio book all in one fell swoop.
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What I did is I decided to
chunk it and every episode, starting
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with episode number four twenty, I
read you one chapter and give you a
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bunch of examples so you can sit
down and listen to Brandy Witchery and your
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drive home. I've got halfway through
the book, so that's one place to
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go on my podcast as well.
Episode number four hundred is I take the
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listener through my ten year journey with
the ABT, have doctor Randy Olson on
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who first introduced me to it,
and a number of other people that have
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used it, and it's a way
to understand all of the different applications of
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the ABT. That's a great place
to go. Third thing I'd say is
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I've got this book that I co
authored, and I mean it's a little
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one with doctor Randy Olson, and
it's a quick little hand guide, if
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you will. As you are sitting
down a right ABTS. It's called the
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Narrative Gym for Business, and as
you start applying the ABT, this will
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give you a lot more case studies
and examples and take you on a much
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deeper dive than we could do today
on how to use the ABT ABT two
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ohoe, ABT three zero one,
and then of course your course, we'll
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be teaching the ABT, the five
primal elements of a short story for big
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impact, and the ten steps story
cycle system that you can use for presentations,
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pitches, and long form communications right
with your startup science course right on.
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So we'll put some of that stuff
into the show notes. And man,
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I gotta tell you, I just
had a great time talking to you
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at the show and listening to you
and this was was really fantastic and I
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think it's a real honor it.
Like I said, it's you're so humble,
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and it's real easy to forget about
how much talent it takes to recognize
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an opportunity and then execute on it. And then I mean, it's easy
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to make something simple complicated, it's
really hard to make something complicated simple,
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and you've mastered that. And I'm
you know, just gratitude, Park.
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It's a it's a real benefit for
everybody to have you around and I appreciate
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your time. Well, Greg,
thank you so much for being here or
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00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:14.759
for me being with you. I'm
so used to hosting my own show.
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00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:18.079
I'm thanking you for being in my
yell, which you were on a few
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00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.799
weeks ago for a month or so
ago. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited
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00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:23.599
to be able to talk to you. Thank you so much. Have a
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00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:27.480
great day. Thanks man, you
two. And that's it for another episode
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00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:33.960
of the startup Science podcast Founders.
As a thank you for leading the changes
350
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:38.079
in our world, I'm offering free
access to my startup science platform, Visionaries
351
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:44.079
by Gregory Shepherd, a one stop
shop for founders. It has everything from
352
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:48.279
the Startup Academy to investor Match,
grant Finder, pitch Finder, virtually everything
353
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.400
in the startup ecosystem there for you. Go to Gregory Shepherd dot com,
354
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:59.039
click on Visionaries to get access and
use the code Founders all capitals for free
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access to the platform. Check it
out for yourself and if you enjoyed the
356
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show, we would love it if
you could subscribe so you never missed an
357
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episode. I'll see you next time
and I'm mina stay with my friends.
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00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.880
This startup science podcast with Gregory Shepherd
is brought to you by startup science dot
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Io. Founders can log on to
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