You Are Enough

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the estimable Ian Wilkes.
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Ian, how are you, sir?
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I'm doing really well and I have no idea.
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Once again, what that word means.
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I thought I was very good with words in the English language coming from England, but I guess
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not.
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Estimable.
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It's like worthy of esteem.
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Worthy of great respect.
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She was shown into that estimable woman's presence is the line in the dictionary
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online that defines the word.
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Because if you are estimable...
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You are worthy of respect, but you are not perfect.
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And I wanted to talk about the kind of perfectionism that pervades the church based on a talk that my bishop gave this past week in ward conference.
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My bishop stood up and talked about his time when he was on a state basketball championship team In Sandy, Utah, he was in 1992, the Alta Hawks won the Utah State Basketball Championship, and he was on that team.
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And it was amazing.
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He remembered every aspect of the season.
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He could list every single team that his basketball team encountered and did so in order.
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He says, then we beat this team, and then we beat that team, and then we beat this team.
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So this had been emblazoned in his memory in a way that he had almost perfect recall of the entire season.
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But he talked about the fact that in the month of February of that season, that their team hit a rough spot.
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He said some of the people didn't want to practice hard enough.
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That's how he described it.
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And he also described that there was team infighting and there were other problems and they just weren't doing anything right.
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And so for the whole month of February, they didn't win a single game.
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And they didn't think they were even going to make it to the state championship tournament.
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But they turned things around.
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They started working really, really, really hard.
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And wouldn't you know it, they got into the tournament.
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And then they got into the finals.
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And they won the finals.
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Well, sports analogies are thick on the ground.
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in church settings.
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Me not being an athlete, I kind of get tired of them, but we hear them an awful lot.
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And the sports analogy was essentially that this championship was very much like the gospel of Jesus Christ and that we sometimes don't want to practice hard enough.
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And we should be working harder.
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And he used examples of things like, we need to tend the temple more.
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We need to pray more.
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We need to read our scriptures more.
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And that was the analogy, just like practicing basketball.
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And if we don't do all of those things over and over and over and over again, we're not going to be in the celestial kingdom.
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Now, my bishop is a good man.
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And my bishop is a compassionate man and couched all of this in his incredible love for the ward that he has served quite well.
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I think he's coming up on the end of his service.
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He started during COVID and we're about five years out and they're still sort of releasing bishops every five years, but he's going to be our bishop at least for a little while longer.
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But He's a good man and has great affection for the ward and has served the ward well.
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As I listened to him, however, I realized that his message is very consistent with just about every message I've heard on the subject of what we need to do in order to enter the celestial kingdom, in order to return home.
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And I also started thinking, It's always a message.
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And so I'm trying to point out, I'm not trying to single out my bishop because this is true of President Nelson.
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This is true of almost every message I've ever heard in general conference.
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This is true of church leaders over and over and over again.
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And the message is always, you're not doing enough.
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You're not, there is always more that you can do.
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Now, That is a true message because there is always more that we can do.
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There's always more that we can do in any aspect of our life.
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I'm happily married, but there's always more I can do to improve my marriage.
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I think I am an estimable father, but there's always more I can do to be a better father, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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So I'm not trying to denigrate anybody that gives this message.
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But what occurred to me is I have never, never once heard anybody stand at the pulpit and say, you are doing enough.
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You are good enough.
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I am really happy with what you are doing.
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You are on track to go to the celestial kingdom.
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And it's always there is more you have to do.
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And no matter how estimable we are, There's always more that we can do.
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And there's never a moment in the church where we say, you know, you're really doing great.
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You're on the right track.
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You're, you're, you know, just keep doing what you're doing.
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You're doing fine.
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We don't hear that message.
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And that comes, I think there are a couple of places that comes from.
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We have the book of Mormon that talks about woe unto him who is at ease in Zion.
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Woe unto him who saith all is well.
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So we shouldn't sing come, come ye saints, I guess.
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But the idea, we should never be at ease in Zion.
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We should never, ever be satisfied with where we are.
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And the problem with that message, you know, we had a conversation with my son, Samuel, who was diagnosed with scrupulosity when he was serving his mission.
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And at one point, Samuel was praying 15 times a day.
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And his therapist had to tell him, you know, that's not healthy.
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That's not helping you.
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But Samuel had sort of incorporated the message that I'm not doing enough.
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Nothing I do is enough.
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So praying 15 times a day in his mind wasn't enough at that point.
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Now he has sought, I think, competent and helpful mental health counseling and And I think that's a good thing, and I think his relationship to the church and his relationship to God is stronger and in a healthier place than it was when he was praying 15 times a day.
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But I can't help but wonder if that constant message that you're just not enough, you're just not doing enough, I think that message ultimately
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can do a great deal of damage.
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as I did, but anytime you would
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talk to an evangelical Christian, my trainer used to call them saved hitters, which is another sports analogy, I guess.
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But the idea is that these guys were saved, right?
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They knew they were going to heaven.
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And once you are born again, once you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, evangelical Christians essentially say, that's it, you're done.
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And you're saved no matter what you do.
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And we used to make fun of these people.
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We used to sort of mock these people as lazy or complacent.
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And no, no, no, you're not just saved.
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You have to, it's the second Nephi thing.
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You've just entered in by the gate and you have to endure to the end.
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And you don't know if you're saved until the end of your life.
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And That seemed to me to be a really logical conclusion when I was a missionary.
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But the older I've gotten, the more I start to realize just how tenuous that position is because you spend your entire life essentially in fear.
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Your entire life that no matter how good you have been, you are always on a knife's edge that eventually you can fall and you can stop doing enough or you can fall short of doing enough.
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And eventually all the good stuff that you did won't matter if you just don't make it to that finish line, having done all that you can do.
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That's the other Book of Mormon scripture that fuels this idea.
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The idea that we are saved by grace after all we can do.
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When in fact, I think it's been ably demonstrated by Dr.
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Dan McClellan, that after all we can do is a 19th century idiom, meaning despite all we can do.
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It's like at the end of the day, or it's just an expression to describe something that has been misinterpreted now as, okay, you need to do all these things.
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You need to practice really, really, really, really hard, work really hard.
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And then Jesus puts you over the finish line.
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But unless you get 99% of the way yourself with all you can do, it's not going to be enough.
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And I've since come to realize that that is an exceptionally toxic way to look at the gospel.
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And that, in fact, it is grace that saves us despite all we can do.
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And no matter what we do, the gap between us and God needs to be filled with Jesus Christ.
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And the efforts that we make to fill that gap are minuscule at best, that it's the grace of Christ that does save us.
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And so more and more, as I thought about this, I thought, okay, so what's the solution?
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Because the church, I don't think the church will ever say, okay, well, you're a saved hitter.
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You don't need to worry about doing anything.
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Like the evangelicals would tell you.
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But is there some way to teach the message of, yes, it's important to do good things and to live a good life and to do all of these things without creating that kind of toxic perfectionism and that kind of uncertainty that that I no longer am willing to accept in my life, if that makes sense.
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I have reached a point where I am no longer willing to love God or obey God out of fear or even out of duty.
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I want my relationship with God to be a familial relationship.
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If he's my heavenly father, then I want to have the kind of relationship with him that I had with my earthly father.
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who was, you know, expected a great deal from me and was always trying to get me to be the best person I could be, yet all along loved me unconditionally, accepted me for who I was, accepted me where I was.
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And when I fell short of his expectations, it wasn't that I feared him or that I feared, oh, geez, dad's going to punish me.
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It was, I don't want my father to be disappointed in me because I love my father and I appreciate his example and I want to emulate it.
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And so that's kind of where my personal faith is.
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So that's, I thought would be something that would be good to discuss here because you now on the outside of the church, my guess is you've dealt with a great deal of this kind of toxic perfectionism, not necessarily even in your own life, but serving in the state presidency, serving as a bishop, that people would come to talk to you and that you would counsel them, and that this was an issue that would come up
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repeatedly.
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Is that correct?
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Concern, issue,
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across all of the callings I've been involved in from elders, current presidents, well, mission leaders, certainly bishop and state presidency, and across rank and file members, people of all backgrounds and experiences, there was a common thread that a lot of people felt not good enough or weren't doing enough or felt they weren't being good enough or doing enough.
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When you selected this week's topic, which I think is fantastic, it's a very, very important topic to talk about because it extends to every aspect of of the individual serving member, connects with them at every level, and it connects to every aspect of the church.
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And when you suggested this topic, my ADHD AI brain, as I describe it, works like an AI machine within seconds.
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It's how my brain works so quickly.
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I'm coming up with all kinds of stuff from my experience, from the mission.
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Literally within 10 seconds, 15, 20 seconds, I've got part of it mapped out.
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It's strange how my brain works.
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It's like an AI thing.
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It comes with pros and cons.
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So when I was listening to you and certainly when you were suggesting we talk about this, which is a very important topic, and thank you for bringing it up.
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I'm very grateful.
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I thought of all kinds of things.
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I'll try to put them in some order as I can.
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If you look at the scripture, there's a scripture which is in the New Testament and, of course, in the Book of Mormon.
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And Elder Holland talks about it extensively in his talk titled, Be Ye Therefore Perfect, Hyphen, Eventually, which he gave back in October 2017, where he quotes that, Be ye therefore perfect, even as...
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Your Father in heaven is perfect.
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And I think in the New Testament he talks, I think he mentions some additional words like, even as I and your Father is perfect.
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But there is a, at least in my perspective and many other perspectives, an interpretation that this is a commandment, Jim, a commandment to be perfect.
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We're commanded to be perfect.
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I take that more than an instruction or a guidance or a piece of advice.
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or a recommendation or even a suggestion, I take that as a commandment.
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And I'm not the only one to do that.
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So there's a lot of pressure on us as members, not me now, but on you as a member, to be perfect.
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And there's been lots of talks about what that means.
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When you start talking about perfection in its literal sense, the church leaders, certainly locally, will say, look, you probably won't achieve perfection in this life.
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You can strive, use the word strive, I can, the temple recommend questions.
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Do you strive to, um, I can't remember the question, but I memorized them word for word, but I've forgotten them over the years, but do you strive to be, um, you know, obedience, uh, you know, with the commandments, et cetera.
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You know, we strive to be perfect.
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It's something that we pursue.
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We strive and you probably want it.
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You will rather not achieve it in this light.
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And then when you start talking, certainly in the, um, leadership meetings that, you know, there's members thinking that, Just accept them as they are.
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We talked about this on a recent podcast.
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Just, you know, here I am with all my faults.
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Accept me as I am.
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I'm doing the best I can.
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If I don't make it, God will save me in the end.
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You know, saved by grace after all we can do.
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And the church also is concerned about that.
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I think the Hollands also talk about that in the sense that it's not enough.
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The Lord won't accept you as you are.
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You have to change.
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And on the back of that, they talked about, I'll try to revise the meaning and definition of unconditional love.
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that in one of the talks, at least, that God won't love you unconditionally if you're not doing enough.
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It's very confusing.
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The church is very worried about members not doing enough because the entire engine of the church, that's the operation of the church, almost entirely relies and is dependent on the volunteer time and commitments of members.
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I mean, 90-odd percent, 95% plus volunteers.
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rests almost entirely, day-to-day operations, week-to-week operations, tithing, every calling you can think of across every geography, across different jurisdictions, et cetera, across different male and female groups in the church.
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It rests almost entirely on the volunteerism and goodwill of church members.
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And so the church is entirely reliant rather pretty much on that.
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Just going to your analogy thing as well, we just want to touch upon that.
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The church has repeatedly, extensively used analogies, some very inappropriate ones and some awful ones, like in a lesson I was in when I was a youth, 16, 17, where the seminary teacher or one of the teachers came into the class.
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It was a mixed class and was taught about the worth and value of the soul.
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It was actually chastity, the law of chastity.
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And they had some cupcakes.
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And as they handed them out, they kind of...
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squeezed the cupcakes, squashed the cupcakes in front of us and asked us if we would eat those cupcakes.
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I think I was the only one that said I would because, you know, I just joined the church and I was familiar with sin.
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So eating a squashed cupcake, I was quite fine with it.
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It looked okay to me.
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I would have eaten it, but people's reaction in the church, they were like, ooh, that's not probably a good idea.
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I've seen that done with somebody, they lick the cupcake.
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Right.
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If a friend or family member licked the cupcake, that wouldn't put me to fault.
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I'm probably not the best person to use it that way because I probably wouldn't eat it.
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you know, knowing my background, but most people wouldn't, of course, because they've got some, you know, manners, a little bit of class about them, which I haven't or didn't have, maybe I have now.
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But the idea that, you know, if you make so many bad mistakes and you end up looking, you know, like this crushed, squashed, cupcake.
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You know, God doesn't want that.
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God won't take that into his bosom.
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And you need to change the problem with the cupcake, because you can't make it whole.
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You have to throw it in the bin.
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So it was a terrible analogy.
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But right through to other analogies like, you know, the Mount of the Lord, which I, you know, is a metaphor for the temple.
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The mediator, which is an analogy used in general conference to address and illustrate how a friend can save someone from justice.
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The boat.
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We've heard about the boat.
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Is it stay in the boat?
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Get out the boat?
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I can't remember.
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Zion.
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Ship Zion.
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So the safety in the boat, you know, keep away from it.
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That'll protect you from the storm.
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Analogy used to illustrate that we should support others who are struggling.
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The airplane.
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Elder Uchtdorf talks about his airplanes quite a bit.
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Analogy used to illustrate we should Focus on what matters the most and what seems most important at the moment.
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Flowers is an obvious one.
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Baseball is another one.
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Soccer.
00:20:55.753 --> 00:20:57.095
I've heard them all.
00:20:57.434 --> 00:20:58.036
Some are good.
00:20:58.056 --> 00:20:58.777
Some are appropriate.
00:20:59.037 --> 00:21:06.223
I'm kind of semi-athletic, so some of it kind of, you know, I can relate to.
00:21:06.624 --> 00:21:22.090
But other thoughts that came to mind in the very 22nd span of time when I was listening to you and understanding the topic when we were at sharing it by Messenger, was that you're right.
00:21:22.211 --> 00:21:29.442
I've never heard a talk, what you said earlier, I've never heard a talk or a lesson or anyone say, you're good enough.
00:21:31.385 --> 00:21:35.693
If it's been said, I can't remember, and that's something, by the way, you would remember.
00:21:36.955 --> 00:21:43.086
You could probably remember on a hand, two hands max in your life, those talks and lessons that have been delivered, maybe 10 if you're lucky.
00:21:43.458 --> 00:21:44.940
I mean, if you've been really lucky, right?
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:47.343
That's the kind of comment I would remember.
00:21:47.482 --> 00:21:54.912
You know, if someone said you're good enough or you've reached a certain level or to quote you, you're on track.
00:21:56.012 --> 00:21:56.574
Never heard that.
00:21:56.973 --> 00:22:06.365
In business, you know, I'm involved in business, as you know, and we have a financial metrics that we have to deliver.
00:22:07.365 --> 00:22:15.275
It's a metrics of six or seven financial metrics um, uh, areas of performance that we need to deliver profit revenue.
00:22:15.336 --> 00:22:21.222
There's two right now, right there, uh, billable, uh, you know, uh, chargeability, uh, utilization.
00:22:21.262 --> 00:22:23.345
These are other metrics in the financial.
00:22:23.786 --> 00:22:37.422
It's important in business, uh, using that as an analogy because it, you know, measuring things numerically, you can quantify them numerically and you can measure like a realistic, you know, how well you're doing.
00:22:38.721 --> 00:22:48.914
You know, it's easy to measure positivistic and quantify numerical elements of something, you know, numbers, financial things.
00:22:48.954 --> 00:22:52.098
And that's what we do in business and in project management.
00:22:52.378 --> 00:22:53.740
In the church, it's difficult.
00:22:54.040 --> 00:22:57.224
It's more of a, here's a big word for you, phenomenological.
00:23:00.308 --> 00:23:00.650
Got it?
00:23:01.270 --> 00:23:05.336
Yeah, I did my dissertation on phenomenological and positive exit systems way back.
00:23:05.635 --> 00:23:06.537
So I know a little bit about that.
00:23:06.757 --> 00:23:09.211
Took me A while to pronounce it, but we got that.
00:23:09.992 --> 00:23:15.098
And so difficult to measure unseen things are like feelings or experiences or spiritual things.
00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:17.501
Has the church measured stuff like that?
00:23:18.063 --> 00:23:25.172
I would say the church does not want to measure phenomenological things because it wants to have an element of control.
00:23:25.192 --> 00:23:52.416
And there's an element, in my opinion, and maybe a little bit tinted here from my experience, that the church, by not being definitive and quantifying things, an individual's performance, other than 100% on teaching or visiting teaching, as they called it, or 100% temple attendance or paying your tithing, it doesn't want, I don't believe it wants to, or it's in its interest to start measuring things.
00:23:52.457 --> 00:24:01.384
Because if you start measuring things and you're making, you're kicking ass, you're making progress and you think, hey, I'm on track to make a successful kingdom, it doesn't want, I don't think it wants that.
00:24:01.726 --> 00:24:02.246
I really don't.
00:24:02.685 --> 00:24:06.170
I think it wants to keep it just outside of your reach.
00:24:07.074 --> 00:24:20.490
because it wants to keep that element of control and uses the scriptures and other analogies just to keep that metric, that limit, just beyond, just outside of your reach.
00:24:20.510 --> 00:24:25.897
So you're always continuously in a status of striving.
00:24:26.679 --> 00:24:27.900
You never get there.
00:24:28.601 --> 00:24:29.982
You never arrive.
00:24:30.663 --> 00:24:31.845
You're always on the journey.
00:24:32.566 --> 00:24:34.147
And I think there's an element of the church...
00:24:36.097 --> 00:24:39.401
that actually quite likes that and uses that to the advantage.
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:46.509
And the reason why I say that is that, my other notes here, if you give the church all of the time, it will take it and then some.
00:24:47.048 --> 00:25:06.513
And I know quite a bit about that, probably more than some, only because I've received these callings, which I didn't ask for, by the way, and didn't want, calling of a bishop, and I could have thrown him every single minute, and I'm not kidding here, into that calling, and he would have absorbed every personal call and professional hour and minute in my life.
00:25:06.693 --> 00:25:07.335
I kid you not.
00:25:07.836 --> 00:25:14.946
And the same for the state presidency, which is more spiritual than administrative and functional.
00:25:15.287 --> 00:25:20.035
The state presidency, I say, is more administrative, functional, and then a little bit more spiritual.
00:25:20.055 --> 00:25:29.730
And again, the state presidency calling, certainly the state president calling, will absorb and take every second, I kid you not, of your time.
00:25:29.750 --> 00:25:38.138
And even then, it will take more And even then in your stewardship interviews with the general authorities, you're still not doing enough.
00:25:38.179 --> 00:25:39.200
That's been my experience.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:46.267
So in my callings, when I've had to meet with the bishop, I'd report and ask him how I'm doing.
00:25:46.307 --> 00:25:51.332
There's always a doing well but could do better response.
00:25:51.711 --> 00:25:52.373
That's been my line.
00:25:52.772 --> 00:25:54.875
Now, I tried to break that.
00:25:55.075 --> 00:25:56.036
In fact, I did break that.
00:25:56.356 --> 00:26:05.826
When people came to me as the bishop and on the state presidency, I would say, and by this is not, just me, there are quite a few people in the church that do this.
00:26:06.126 --> 00:26:10.051
So I'm not trying to blow a trumpet, you know, like Moroni, nothing like that.
00:26:10.092 --> 00:26:37.058
All I'm trying to say is that just being a regular leader, just being ordinary, just being yourself, being honest, and seeing in a somewhat more intimate level in regards to how people serve, you know, from a bishop's perspective and state presidency, and seeing the extraordinary lengths, Jim, and sacrifices, and hours and hours and preparation and a strive for perfection that some of these individuals have.
00:26:37.078 --> 00:26:43.545
And certainly I've seen in many of the sisters where they put so much in, often at the cost of their own family.
00:26:45.046 --> 00:26:54.375
And I also include fathers and husbands where they've put the church first and they've missed out on personal time with their kids or their wife or their husband.
00:26:55.056 --> 00:26:59.720
And this husband and wife have supported them because it's the church and the church comes first.
00:27:00.441 --> 00:27:01.342
And no matter...
00:27:01.473 --> 00:27:03.656
how many hours you put in, it doesn't matter.
00:27:03.998 --> 00:27:05.240
It all counts as blessings.
00:27:05.660 --> 00:27:16.816
And like a credit score, like a financial credit score towards your celestial status or status, you know, adding up the points.
00:27:17.297 --> 00:27:19.019
And as I've been saying, it all adds up the points.
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:36.413
And so the church will take everything it can from you in terms of service and It's often, not always, but often keeps the goal just in sight, but slightly out of reach.
00:27:37.035 --> 00:27:37.715
I'll repeat that.
00:27:38.277 --> 00:27:42.761
In sight, in close proximity, but slightly out of reach.
00:27:43.462 --> 00:27:49.951
So your fingertips are there, or you're a few feet away, it's there, you can see it, and you move, and then it moves.
00:27:49.971 --> 00:27:50.992
It's like a moving target.
00:27:51.032 --> 00:28:04.250
And I also want to highlight again that there are leaders that that have met with members and leaders who do advise members that they are good enough, that they won't achieve perfection in this life.
00:28:04.310 --> 00:28:06.815
You'll only achieve it in the next life if that, if at all.
00:28:07.576 --> 00:28:09.318
That we do the best that we can.
00:28:09.558 --> 00:28:10.259
Just be the best.
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:10.881
Be yourself.
00:28:11.182 --> 00:28:11.903
Be authentic self.
00:28:12.423 --> 00:28:13.805
And God will make up for the rest.
00:28:14.866 --> 00:28:21.477
And so there are some of my thoughts that I have in response to what you're saying.
00:28:21.857 --> 00:28:23.619
Some other thoughts as well, real quick here.
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:24.701
The temple...
00:28:25.026 --> 00:28:28.029
also supports the need to strive for perfection.
00:28:28.569 --> 00:28:32.816
You're always taught in the temple that, you know, there are three kingdoms.
00:28:33.395 --> 00:28:34.257
There's a celestial kingdom.
00:28:34.277 --> 00:28:36.480
There's three kingdoms within the celestial kingdom, three levels.
00:28:37.060 --> 00:28:45.730
And in order to achieve that, you've got to reach a metric, you know, be married for time and all eternity, full tithe payer, obedient, et cetera, live with exactness.
00:28:46.613 --> 00:29:07.650
Some of the motivations behind, you know, commitment and service to the church and striving to be be the best and do the best and get into the kingdom and trying to reach that goal include, not in order, but they're really important and real motivators.
00:29:08.030 --> 00:29:08.570
One is fear.
00:29:08.651 --> 00:29:09.451
You talked about fear.
00:29:09.893 --> 00:29:13.576
Some people are afraid that if they don't do enough, they're not going to make it, not going to be with the loved ones.
00:29:14.096 --> 00:29:17.640
The seal to the loved ones, if they don't strive hard enough, they're not going to be with the loved ones.
00:29:18.181 --> 00:29:19.061
Other ones is guilt.
00:29:19.561 --> 00:29:22.404
And that's been a factor that's driven me no longer.
00:29:22.444 --> 00:29:23.105
I don't feel...
00:29:23.842 --> 00:29:25.124
I don't feel that guilt anymore.
00:29:25.163 --> 00:29:26.125
Guilt used to crush me.
00:29:26.705 --> 00:29:31.392
I remember, by the way, the first month on the mission, before you got there, this was February, March 1987.
00:29:32.213 --> 00:29:33.736
We had nine baptisms.
00:29:34.215 --> 00:29:34.537
Nine.
00:29:34.557 --> 00:29:37.401
152 missionaries, nine baptisms.
00:29:38.082 --> 00:29:39.202
I think it was March 87.
00:29:40.125 --> 00:29:47.875
President Dunn railed on us, before Banks, railed on us, and told us, I'm into the mission by six weeks.
00:29:49.376 --> 00:29:52.461
Working my ass off with Elder Rockwood, who was...
00:29:52.865 --> 00:29:55.690
an absolute machine, a machine.
00:29:55.730 --> 00:29:57.211
I shared some stories about him earlier.
00:29:57.231 --> 00:30:00.855
He's a great guy, but did not stop working even on P-days.
00:30:01.356 --> 00:30:03.500
We worked to death.
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:08.266
And notwithstanding, we still only had nine backers.
00:30:08.346 --> 00:30:20.162
And President Dunn said to us, it's because of our worthiness that we were not, because of our not living with exactness, end quote, that we weren't worthy, that some of the missionaries were being disobedient.
00:30:20.930 --> 00:30:22.092
And yes, it was blunt.
00:30:22.132 --> 00:30:23.232
Some of them were masturbating.
00:30:24.796 --> 00:30:26.397
He used the word masturbating?
00:30:26.438 --> 00:30:27.219
He did.
00:30:27.380 --> 00:30:27.660
He did.
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:32.847
Because some of them were masturbating and not following, living with exactness, living with obedience.
00:30:33.489 --> 00:30:37.835
That's the reason why the Lord only afforded us nine baptisms that month.
00:30:39.136 --> 00:30:42.301
And I'm shocked because I'm thinking, I can't do anything else.
00:30:43.943 --> 00:30:45.145
I'm teaching with the Spirit.
00:30:45.602 --> 00:30:47.064
I'm running back to the apartment.
00:30:47.203 --> 00:30:48.586
I'm working through my lunch hour.
00:30:49.186 --> 00:30:50.608
I'm walking around with a sandwich.
00:30:51.250 --> 00:30:53.834
I'm working half my PDs, which you're not supposed to do, by the way.
00:30:54.413 --> 00:30:56.457
I am working my ass off.
00:30:56.656 --> 00:30:59.622
I was an obedient missionary.
00:30:59.922 --> 00:31:01.564
I worked hard, right?
00:31:02.506 --> 00:31:03.988
And you know that.
00:31:04.008 --> 00:31:04.929
You and I served together.
00:31:05.048 --> 00:31:09.935
You and I worked so hard, and yet we didn't succeed much in baptisms.
00:31:10.115 --> 00:31:10.836
That was a metric.
00:31:11.490 --> 00:31:14.153
And it was because I was told that I wasn't worthy enough.
00:31:14.593 --> 00:31:18.936
Other motivators are control, position.
00:31:18.977 --> 00:31:21.900
Some people do things for position.
00:31:22.961 --> 00:31:29.468
And the ultimate one, though, of course, was to be motivated and achieve and strive for perfection because of love.
00:31:30.568 --> 00:31:41.632
And I think that also is quite dangerous because if you go to that level where you're doing anything for love, And you're not questioning anything.
00:31:41.672 --> 00:31:42.732
You've lost your critical mind.
00:31:42.752 --> 00:31:43.473
Your church broke.
00:31:44.335 --> 00:31:45.797
If a general authority says, do that.
00:31:46.878 --> 00:31:52.306
And in your mind, it's because if you do it, you're showing love.
00:31:53.086 --> 00:31:57.071
That takes over every fiber of your being.
00:31:58.294 --> 00:31:59.935
Every aspect of the soul.
00:31:59.955 --> 00:32:00.636
It owns you.
00:32:00.676 --> 00:32:06.124
If you are doing things out of love in your mind, you don't question things.
00:32:06.144 --> 00:32:07.005
You're not critical to thinking.
00:32:07.045 --> 00:32:07.665
You'll do anything.
00:32:08.207 --> 00:32:10.289
It becomes blind faith, blind love.
00:32:10.913 --> 00:32:13.857
and it's extremely dangerous.
00:32:14.598 --> 00:32:28.819
So, yeah, I think the church has the responsibility and the opportunity to address this, to have a real honest conversation about this, and it doesn't, and it doesn't for a reason.
00:32:28.859 --> 00:32:35.410
I've talked about control, keeping things just in sight but out of reach, relying on its members.
00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:36.290
It can't...
00:32:38.945 --> 00:33:16.567
unleash or um uh what's the word it can't um release or unchain is the word i'm gonna go unchain its members from the things that motivate members that drive the church forward and and so i'm very grateful you've you've selected this topic this week i think it's so important but i also think it's so dangerous because just to close my comments here on this part of the conversation I've lost count, Jim, how many times I've had members in my office who are heartbroken, who are devastated because they've lived or they thought they've lived with exactness.
00:33:17.367 --> 00:33:19.873
They've served with love.
00:33:20.012 --> 00:33:21.576
They've given everything and more.
00:33:22.257 --> 00:33:32.074
And one member of the family has gone inactive or someone's died in their family or they've lost a job or they're in debt or they feel guilty because they're not good enough.
00:33:32.481 --> 00:33:34.364
They just don't quite feel good enough.
00:33:34.703 --> 00:33:37.146
And this affects their self-esteem and their self-worth.
00:33:37.567 --> 00:33:41.692
And then we go into situations where people need mental health counseling because they don't feel good enough.
00:33:42.373 --> 00:33:47.377
And I've had to deal with that as well because the bar is set so high, they don't feel they can reach it.
00:33:48.138 --> 00:33:49.580
It's never attainable.
00:33:50.040 --> 00:33:56.327
And I think that's very dangerous and it can result in suicide and the extreme.
00:33:56.848 --> 00:33:57.269
We know that.
00:33:58.269 --> 00:34:04.541
I know a number of people who have committed suicide and learned from their spouses that they just didn't feel good enough.
00:34:04.902 --> 00:34:11.231
They felt guilty because something they were doing or not doing, and it just consumed them and it just took over their lives.
00:34:11.713 --> 00:34:25.653
And you and I, we know people where that, you know, those feelings and those very dark thoughts have affected that individual to the point where they've lost their ability to see things in perspective.
00:34:26.556 --> 00:34:28.918
So I'm so grateful that you've selected this.
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:30.501
It's so important, so timely.
00:34:31.137 --> 00:34:32.840
Any time to talk about this is a good time.
00:34:33.460 --> 00:34:41.887
And I hope that the leaders that are listening to this, I like to think that some of them do, that they will address this and get that balance just right.
00:34:42.208 --> 00:34:44.891
Yes, work hard, but be realistic.
00:34:45.351 --> 00:34:48.554
And also say to people that you're doing great.
00:34:49.456 --> 00:34:51.637
Isn't it a good feeling when someone says, look, you're good enough.
00:34:52.157 --> 00:34:53.199
You're doing really well.
00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:55.061
Well done.
00:34:55.501 --> 00:34:57.903
No, we're talking about well done, that good and faithful servant.
00:34:58.063 --> 00:35:00.266
They talk about that in the afterlife, by the way.
00:35:00.961 --> 00:35:01.682
I mean, do you remember that?
00:35:01.702 --> 00:35:02.885
They don't talk about it in this life.
00:35:03.585 --> 00:35:09.753
The funerals, and when someone's passed away, they always quote the scripture, well done, thou good and faithful servant.
00:35:09.974 --> 00:35:11.576
They don't talk about it when you're alive.
00:35:11.896 --> 00:35:12.918
They're talking about it when you're dead.
00:35:14.059 --> 00:35:17.364
So anyway, I have strong feelings on this, as you can tell.
00:35:17.403 --> 00:35:19.126
I'll hand the time back over to you.
00:35:20.507 --> 00:35:20.989
There are
00:35:21.028 --> 00:35:21.389
my thoughts.
00:35:22.690 --> 00:35:23.552
They're good thoughts.
00:35:23.913 --> 00:35:27.478
And I just need to correct at one point where I said I remember that.
00:35:28.257 --> 00:35:37.492
I was not on my mission in March 1987, but I remember a month, and I'm thinking it's in 1988, that we only had nine baptisms.
00:35:38.773 --> 00:35:46.003
And I remember President Banks, who was far gentler than President Dunn, still railing on us.
00:35:47.967 --> 00:35:53.494
It was in the middle of the, remember the Together Forever video and tapes?
00:35:54.215 --> 00:35:54.456
I do.
00:35:54.516 --> 00:36:08.092
The church bought newspaper ads in major newspapers all throughout Scotland and said, call this number and get a free tape.
00:36:09.873 --> 00:36:16.864
And President Banks said, right after that, nobody called.
00:36:18.445 --> 00:36:19.608
It didn't go anywhere.
00:36:20.548 --> 00:36:22.092
And President Banks blamed us.
00:36:22.751 --> 00:36:25.275
He says, you were all hoping this would all be manna from heaven.
00:36:25.335 --> 00:36:26.637
And so you just stopped working.
00:36:27.554 --> 00:36:29.617
And I went, well, no, I didn't stop worshiping.
00:36:29.657 --> 00:36:32.820
How can I stop working?
00:36:32.860 --> 00:36:34.483
I'm going to go to hell if I stop working.
00:36:34.523 --> 00:36:39.369
You know, that whole guilt and fear thing was all there.
00:36:39.909 --> 00:36:41.492
But yeah, the blame was on us.
00:36:42.432 --> 00:36:46.257
Also, at one point, we made a covenant.
00:36:46.858 --> 00:36:50.003
I think it was framed as a covenant with the Lord.
00:36:50.023 --> 00:36:52.065
It was SEM 40.
00:36:52.226 --> 00:36:53.367
Do you remember SEM 40?
00:36:53.387 --> 00:36:54.327
I do.
00:36:54.347 --> 00:36:55.710
We made a covenant.
00:36:56.226 --> 00:36:58.429
40 baptisms in one month.
00:36:58.648 --> 00:37:00.371
And this was several months in advance.
00:37:00.471 --> 00:37:09.001
And we promised that if we do this, we, you know, we are going to bind the Lord because the doctrine and covenant says, I, the Lord, am bound when you do what I say.
00:37:09.021 --> 00:37:12.445
But if you do not what I say, ye have no promise.
00:37:13.206 --> 00:37:13.286
I
00:37:13.365 --> 00:37:13.887
remember
00:37:13.967 --> 00:37:15.648
that campaign very clearly.
00:37:15.748 --> 00:37:15.889
Yep.
00:37:16.530 --> 00:37:17.652
And do you remember what happened?
00:37:19.653 --> 00:37:23.038
I remember you were in, we're in the same zone together in Manasseh.
00:37:23.202 --> 00:37:29.710
And I think, if I'm not mistaken, we achieved our, in our zone, we achieved our number.
00:37:30.231 --> 00:37:34.996
We ended up going down to the mission home to watch a video.
00:37:35.617 --> 00:37:36.197
Ben-Hur.
00:37:36.338 --> 00:37:36.739
Neil.
00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:37.820
Ben-Hur.
00:37:38.061 --> 00:37:39.402
Mike, can you believe that?
00:37:39.503 --> 00:37:40.003
Ben-Hur.
00:37:41.244 --> 00:37:42.106
Holy frick.
00:37:42.385 --> 00:37:43.487
I mean, Ben-Hur.
00:37:43.507 --> 00:37:48.414
It could have been Star Wars or something, but it can't even give us a decent movie.
00:37:48.514 --> 00:37:52.860
I have great affection for Charlton Heston, so I didn't mind.
00:37:52.900 --> 00:37:54.123
Oh, yeah.
00:37:54.182 --> 00:37:56.407
To me, it was just give me a break from religion.
00:37:56.447 --> 00:37:59.972
Remember, I'm the non-classy convert to the church.
00:38:00.313 --> 00:38:01.295
I would have loved Star Wars.
00:38:01.335 --> 00:38:02.998
When I heard Ben, yeah, I thought it was a load of crap.
00:38:03.038 --> 00:38:03.940
I thought I'd been scammed.
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:06.603
But anyway, I didn't question it.
00:38:06.643 --> 00:38:11.472
I kept my thoughts to myself, went down there, had a meal, and watched Ben flipping her.
00:38:14.396 --> 00:38:14.677
Well...
00:38:15.393 --> 00:38:16.396
Yeah, that's all right.
00:38:17.717 --> 00:38:18.338
It's okay.
00:38:18.458 --> 00:38:18.898
It's all right.
00:38:19.059 --> 00:38:21.422
Mission-wide, we fell short.
00:38:22.385 --> 00:38:24.027
We didn't get 40 baptisms.
00:38:24.086 --> 00:38:26.952
I think we barely got 30 baptisms.
00:38:27.231 --> 00:38:27.632
You're right.
00:38:27.693 --> 00:38:28.673
We made it as a zone.
00:38:28.693 --> 00:38:33.260
I remember because going down with you, I think, but we didn't make it as a mission for sure.
00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:33.581
Correct.
00:38:33.802 --> 00:38:33.961
Yeah.
00:38:34.804 --> 00:38:44.157
And so the sense was, I think we were a little bit inoculated from that because we were the top baptizing zone.
00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:59.130
But we, I mean, the kind of guilt, again, that was sort of heaped on us because we just, clearly the Lord didn't fall short, so it must have been us.
00:39:00.092 --> 00:39:00.932
We stopped
00:39:01.534 --> 00:39:02.594
masturbating that month.
00:39:03.436 --> 00:39:06.059
I'm not going there.
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.643
I'm not going there at all.
00:39:09.786 --> 00:39:11.527
That's thrown you a little bit, hasn't it?
00:39:11.547 --> 00:39:11.628
It's
00:39:11.869 --> 00:39:30.818
thrown me a little bit, but So the whole idea, this whole idea in the church, as you were talking, I started thinking about one of the things that you've said on a number of occasions is that when you left the church, you received a letter saying, okay, your records are gone.
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:31.960
You're not a member anymore.
00:39:33.103 --> 00:39:37.469
And the letter didn't say anything about thank you for your service or anything.
00:39:37.826 --> 00:39:40.889
You know, we so appreciate and oh, we'll miss you.
00:39:41.010 --> 00:39:43.753
And I mean, none of that.
00:39:43.954 --> 00:40:01.599
And so what it meant essentially was that everything you had done up to that point, all of that time that had been committed to building the kingdom and committed to helping the church, the church, it didn't happen.
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:02.559
It didn't exist.
00:40:02.581 --> 00:40:04.382
It had no value whatsoever.
00:40:04.943 --> 00:40:06.405
It never, all is to find done.
00:40:07.938 --> 00:40:12.844
All the stuff I've done, all the time, all the effort, all the sacrifice, all the hours away from my family.
00:40:14.047 --> 00:40:15.670
And I'm not trying to play the violin here.
00:40:15.710 --> 00:40:17.592
That never happened.
00:40:18.474 --> 00:40:18.693
Yeah.
00:40:19.215 --> 00:40:20.016
In the churches.
00:40:20.757 --> 00:40:21.719
Well, it's not.
00:40:22.940 --> 00:40:27.166
And you compare that, for instance, to people who conclude their military service.
00:40:28.688 --> 00:40:34.318
And they are constantly praised, rightfully so.
00:40:35.041 --> 00:40:36.684
People thank them for their service.
00:40:37.186 --> 00:40:42.135
They're asked to stand at sporting events and let's acknowledge all of our veterans.
00:40:42.215 --> 00:40:52.032
And these are people who are not actively serving in the military now, but the service that they gave still has value, is still worthy of respect.
00:40:53.034 --> 00:40:54.677
And that is not the case in the church.
00:40:54.858 --> 00:41:03.065
If you live an entirely faithful life, And then at the age of 85, decide, oh, you know what?
00:41:03.465 --> 00:41:05.548
I have some problems with the church and you step away.
00:41:05.568 --> 00:41:09.572
It's as if you had never been a member of the church.
00:41:09.713 --> 00:41:17.161
It's as if that entire lifetime of service is just flushed down the memory hole, just didn't happen, just didn't matter.
00:41:17.202 --> 00:41:21.726
And, you know, I was thinking about this to some degree.
00:41:21.766 --> 00:41:39.184
This last weekend, I was up in Port Angeles, Washington, which is where my wife grew up, and it's where my father-in-law was just buried after a long battle with Parkinson's disease.
00:41:40.005 --> 00:41:43.528
He passed away, and we went up to his funeral.
00:41:43.548 --> 00:41:59.733
And some of the most spiritual church meetings, if not the most spiritual church meetings, that I've ever experienced have all been funerals.
00:42:00.914 --> 00:42:07.280
Because it's at a funeral when you take stock of an entire person's life.
00:42:08.762 --> 00:42:26.338
And there were plenty of things said at this funeral about how Richard Sidwell has lived a good life and is on his way to the celestial kingdom and is going to be reunited with his with his wife.
00:42:26.478 --> 00:42:29.083
And, you know, all of a sudden it's okay.
00:42:29.123 --> 00:42:30.324
Yes, he's arrived.
00:42:30.385 --> 00:42:31.226
He's done enough.
00:42:32.648 --> 00:42:50.974
And maybe that's one of the reasons why they're so satisfying is that there isn't any room for the kind of guilt and fear because he's done, you know, his mortal journey is over.
00:42:51.014 --> 00:43:02.097
And so we, we, um, We now assign him, essentially, a spot in the celestial kingdom and say, he's done enough.
00:43:02.318 --> 00:43:14.351
I have never been to a funeral, even somebody who has not necessarily lived the kind of exemplary life that would get them any sort of praise in the church while they were alive.
00:43:14.371 --> 00:43:21.940
Those funerals still have that same kind of spirit to them where they say, yes, well, they've done enough and they're good enough.
00:43:23.181 --> 00:43:35.621
And There's something– I've heard many people say it's too bad that you have to wait until you're dead for people to say nice things about you.
00:43:36.942 --> 00:43:38.244
And I think there's some truth in that.
00:43:38.324 --> 00:43:47.952
But I think it's also too bad that you have to wait until you're dead to have people say God accepts your offering.
00:43:48.873 --> 00:43:50.215
God accepts who you are.
00:43:50.235 --> 00:43:51.677
God accepts what you've done.
00:43:51.697 --> 00:43:52.918
You've lived a life.
00:43:53.889 --> 00:44:26.503
that god appreciates we don't ever say that when people are alive unless the one exception to that is unless you are a member of the first presidency or the quorum of the 12th right we're willing to praise to high heaven church leaders and sort of put them on a pedestal and talk about essentially how they're perfect or as close to perfect as we can possibly come but we won't do that for rank and file members of the church until they die.
00:44:26.543 --> 00:44:50.068
And I think more and more, and I've said this kind of thing many times on this podcast, but more and more, we're seeing the fact that the old playbook just doesn't work anymore because that kind of guilt, that kind of fear, that kind of, if you don't go on a mission, you're in serious trouble.
00:44:50.128 --> 00:44:55.335
If you don't, Get married in the temple, you're going to fall short.
00:44:55.496 --> 00:45:11.601
The scaremongering, the fearmongering that you need to make sure that you're cutting it and that you continually reach for that thing that is just out of reach or you're going to be sorry.
00:45:11.701 --> 00:45:19.012
That kind of fear and guilt just isn't working anymore for the rising generation.
00:45:19.193 --> 00:45:19.893
It just isn't.
00:45:20.449 --> 00:45:22.172
They hear that and they go, oh, really?
00:45:22.213 --> 00:45:26.719
Well, let's see.
00:45:26.739 --> 00:45:46.570
I mean, the numbers that we are seeing of people who are leaving, particularly people who leave as soon as they turn 18, some estimates put it as high as 75% of church members, by the time they reach 18, they're saying, I'm kind of done.
00:45:47.362 --> 00:45:49.606
I'm kind of done being told I'm not enough.
00:45:49.987 --> 00:45:52.371
I'm kind of done being told I'm not good enough.
00:45:52.791 --> 00:45:59.342
I'm done being told that I continually fall short no matter how much I do, no matter how much I reach.
00:45:59.884 --> 00:46:02.889
And that thing is still just a few feet away.
00:46:02.909 --> 00:46:04.711
I'm tired of it.
00:46:04.992 --> 00:46:05.793
I'm done with it.
00:46:06.275 --> 00:46:07.657
I don't want to do that anymore.
00:46:08.679 --> 00:46:09.621
And they step away.
00:46:09.661 --> 00:46:12.606
And a lot of them are happier when they do that.
00:46:13.153 --> 00:46:23.108
And one of the things that I see online all the time is, oh, you've left the church, so you obviously aren't happy and you're miserable and clearly you don't even know what happiness is.
00:46:23.128 --> 00:46:25.733
And the people who've left saying, what are you talking about?
00:46:27.255 --> 00:46:28.536
I'm happier than I've ever been.
00:46:28.556 --> 00:46:30.119
No, no, no, you must be lying.
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:38.210
It's sort of the flip side to, it's kind of the toxic flip side to this idea of, okay, we want you to do better.
00:46:38.251 --> 00:46:44.150
And then when somebody says, this isn't working for me, it's, well, clearly, You're a terrible person.
00:46:44.612 --> 00:46:45.572
Clearly you're miserable.
00:46:45.773 --> 00:46:48.036
I mean, you have experienced this firsthand.
00:46:48.315 --> 00:46:53.161
All the people would have told you, you've gone off the rails and blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:46:53.181 --> 00:46:54.422
And you can never be happy.
00:46:54.523 --> 00:47:00.128
And it's just the problem with that is it's just not true.
00:47:01.130 --> 00:47:11.081
And if the only thing that we have to keep people in the church is the constant fear of what would happen if they stepped away.
00:47:12.001 --> 00:47:17.967
then the church is in serious trouble because people are calling that bluff.
00:47:18.789 --> 00:47:20.010
People are saying, oh, really?
00:47:20.030 --> 00:47:21.371
I'm going to be miserable?
00:47:21.411 --> 00:47:22.072
Well, let me see.
00:47:22.112 --> 00:47:25.114
And then they leave and discover, you know what?
00:47:25.974 --> 00:47:26.996
God still loves me.
00:47:27.036 --> 00:47:28.657
I'm still capable of happiness.
00:47:29.157 --> 00:47:31.320
I'm still capable of having a wonderful family.
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:32.702
I'm still capable.
00:47:32.722 --> 00:47:38.347
I still have all the goodness that the church helped.
00:47:38.568 --> 00:47:40.969
And I absolutely believe the church helps people.
00:47:41.601 --> 00:47:43.923
cultivate that kind of goodness in their lives.
00:47:44.625 --> 00:47:47.827
But when they leave, that goodness doesn't just completely evaporate.
00:47:47.887 --> 00:47:49.409
It doesn't belong to the church.
00:47:49.909 --> 00:47:55.974
It belongs to the person and the person keeps it, whether they're in or out of the church.
00:47:56.815 --> 00:48:23.983
And so I guess where I am, I'm coming down on all this, where I land on all this is we need to start preaching a positive message, a message of Here's not what you should be afraid of if you leave, but what joy and beauty and wonder are there for you if you stay.
00:48:24.043 --> 00:48:28.306
People talk about in business the carrot and the stick.
00:48:29.469 --> 00:48:37.918
You can move forward with a carrot, dangling a carrot in front of the horse, or with a stick hitting the horse in the behind over and over again.
00:48:37.958 --> 00:48:41.762
And we have relied so much on the stick.
00:48:42.753 --> 00:48:53.911
that I'm not even sure what the carrots are anymore in terms of, geesh, this is something I can't access outside the church.
00:48:54.851 --> 00:49:03.505
And the reality is that people can find happiness outside the church and we need to stop demonizing them for doing that.
00:49:03.545 --> 00:49:09.454
And we need to emphasize, okay, here's all the great things that you have when you are in the church.
00:49:09.514 --> 00:49:26.255
Here's all the wonderful sense of community, the wonderful collective spiritual growth as you help each other and you build up each other, the reality that you know you have, that the church has your back, which is an experience that I've had time and again.
00:49:26.295 --> 00:49:32.764
And apparently there are people who just don't believe that's enough.
00:49:33.746 --> 00:49:35.510
It somehow has to be exclusive.
00:49:36.130 --> 00:49:39.653
It has to be, and nobody else would ever have your back if you left the church.
00:49:40.034 --> 00:49:43.038
And there's no other possible way you could find community if you left the church.
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:45.860
We just need to let that go.
00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:51.226
And I think people are terrified of doing that because they think, well, then why will people keep going to church?
00:49:52.068 --> 00:50:04.041
And if fear is the only thing keeping people going to church, then we have to repent as a church and find ways that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ itself is enough.
00:50:05.057 --> 00:50:13.114
Not the fear of punishment, not the fear of condemnation, but just the joy that comes from embracing the principles of the gospel.
00:50:13.755 --> 00:50:14.478
That is enough.
00:50:14.637 --> 00:50:17.985
And if people make a different choice, that is their choice.
00:50:18.005 --> 00:50:27.208
And condemning them and fearing them and othering them is not something we ought to be engaged in doing.
00:50:27.248 --> 00:50:31.052
And that seems to be something that we're doing more and more and more.
00:50:31.072 --> 00:50:32.934
And it just makes me sad.
00:50:32.954 --> 00:50:34.996
I want to see that change.
00:50:35.657 --> 00:50:51.773
I want to be able to go to church because I want to go to church and love to go to church and experience the blessings that come from worshiping with other believers, not because I'm terrified of what might happen if I don't.
00:50:52.152 --> 00:50:52.853
Does that make sense?
00:50:53.250 --> 00:50:53.871
Absolutely.
00:50:54.030 --> 00:50:54.391
Absolutely.
00:50:54.672 --> 00:50:57.215
I'm listening with great interest and intent.
00:50:57.235 --> 00:50:59.157
You make some really powerful points.
00:50:59.797 --> 00:51:07.327
As I'm listening to you, my mind catches hold of the talk that Elder Ballard gave in 2016 titled, To Whom Shall We Go?
00:51:07.347 --> 00:51:09.489
You know, you're talking about the carrot, right?
00:51:09.510 --> 00:51:17.478
We're talking about the church using guilt and fear, you know, to motivate us because there's some real truth to that.
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:29.981
It might sound like me, who's outside the church, as being negative against the church again, but The truth is, the reality is that the church knows, it's in the guilt business, in my opinion.
00:51:31.063 --> 00:51:36.311
It knows how to use guilt and fear to motivate and change behavior in the church.
00:51:36.873 --> 00:51:37.454
It really does.
00:51:37.494 --> 00:51:40.298
The evidence is pretty overwhelming, pretty compelling.
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:41.922
I'm not saying it does that all the time.
00:51:41.942 --> 00:51:42.463
It doesn't.
00:51:42.862 --> 00:51:45.708
There are great leaders in the church that Do what we said earlier.
00:51:45.728 --> 00:51:54.161
I want to highlight this again, where they meet with members or leaders and they say to them, you know, they remind the members or the leaders that you are good enough.
00:51:54.663 --> 00:51:55.445
You're doing great.
00:51:56.146 --> 00:51:56.586
Well done.
00:51:57.248 --> 00:51:57.929
You're on track.
00:51:58.710 --> 00:51:59.913
And they focus on the positive.
00:52:00.052 --> 00:52:03.759
And those conversations do happen and they happen often, but not enough.
00:52:05.461 --> 00:52:09.949
The pulpit there with Ella Ballard gave that talk, which is quite interesting.
00:52:11.106 --> 00:52:23.782
foreboding, I think, and a little bit threatening, depending on your perspective, even implying that if you don't serve 100% here in the church, well, that's a problem in itself.
00:52:24.143 --> 00:52:25.365
We can change you, et cetera.
00:52:25.846 --> 00:52:28.389
And if you decide to leave, where will you go?
00:52:28.409 --> 00:52:54.456
He says here, if any of you is faltering in your faith, including people like feeling guilty, not good enough, repenting, but not feeling forgiven, We've not mentioned that in this comment, in our conversation here, where people actually repent, like just fast constantly, sacrifice, repent, repent, repent, because they feel so bad about something, and yet they don't feel that forgiveness.
00:52:54.856 --> 00:53:00.304
But it says here, if any of you is faltering in your faith, I ask you the same question that Peter asked, to whom shall you go?
00:53:00.344 --> 00:53:07.114
If you choose to become inactive or to leave the restored church of Jesus Christ of Latin saints, where will you go?
00:53:07.873 --> 00:53:08.614
What will you do?
00:53:08.635 --> 00:53:18.463
A decision to walk no more with church members and with the Lord's leaders will have a long-term impact that cannot always be seen right now.
00:53:18.523 --> 00:53:26.452
Depending on your perspective, that can be interpreted as being threatening, using guilt, using fear.
00:53:26.711 --> 00:53:28.994
Basically, you're not going to get to where you need to be.
00:53:29.014 --> 00:53:30.416
You're not going to get back to God without us.
00:53:31.157 --> 00:53:31.617
You need us.
00:53:31.737 --> 00:53:36.402
So you just get your head down, muck in, follow the rules.
00:53:37.057 --> 00:53:40.061
Be the best, do better, be better.
00:53:40.844 --> 00:53:45.369
You're not quite good enough right now, but even if, regardless, you can't go anywhere.
00:53:45.971 --> 00:53:53.663
The second thing I want to just comment on as well, I don't think this mindset in the church has always been like that, Jim.
00:53:54.985 --> 00:54:06.501
And so to counter this culture in the church of this culture of guilt and fear and not quite good enough, in April...
00:54:06.882 --> 00:54:22.661
On April 3rd, 1836, according to Truman Madsen, the tapes that I used to listen to and try to speak like Truman Madsen on the doorsteps there for extra spirituality and extra baptisms, which never worked, by the way, and only did that on a few doors.
00:54:23.603 --> 00:54:31.293
Jesus Christ accepted the Kirtland Temple in Ohio as his house, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
00:54:32.134 --> 00:54:35.577
The event occurred during a vision to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.
00:54:36.130 --> 00:55:11.043
Now, there's actually a half-hour tape discussion from Truman Madsen, and he taught, I remember it, I've not heard it for years and years, but I remember Truman Madsen saying that Joseph Smith had this vision that the Lord had finally, finally accepted the Kirtland Temple and accepted, and I remember this is on the tape, accepted all the effort and the sacrifice, physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual sacrifice that the saints had invested into building that temple, including but not limited to Joseph Smith's effort and leadership.
00:55:11.643 --> 00:55:22.152
And Joseph also saw that as an acknowledgement that the Lord had accepted him, quote, personally as his prophet on the earth.
00:55:22.253 --> 00:55:23.193
I remember those words.
00:55:24.295 --> 00:55:25.916
I'm close to quoting, I know I am.
00:55:26.757 --> 00:55:30.320
It was an important vision and experience for Joseph Smith as he reported it.
00:55:30.340 --> 00:55:49.880
And he also tied that to a level of forgiveness from the mistakes that he'd made previously, different mistakes as a prophet, that the Lord had accepted his work, him as a prophet, the saints, and that the Kirtland Temple was a manifestation that the saints had done well.
00:55:50.782 --> 00:55:55.067
Well done, thou good and faithful saint, saints.
00:55:56.628 --> 00:55:57.429
Thou hast done well.
00:55:57.829 --> 00:56:11.826
And the temple was a physical manifestation of the great outpouring of sacrifice and effort and physical labor and financial labor and loss that the members had experienced in building that Kirtland Temple.
00:56:12.246 --> 00:56:14.949
I remember that on the Truman tapes.
00:56:15.550 --> 00:56:17.213
I don't think that's an isolated case.
00:56:17.454 --> 00:56:29.469
I do believe that historically there has been moments where the church has done well, the leaders have said so, they've made a lot of progress, and they've acknowledged people for their progress in this life.
00:56:29.858 --> 00:56:34.902
But I think the church has, it's a very different church to when Joe Smith was around, as you know.
00:56:35.364 --> 00:56:36.905
I don't know if you would recognize it today.
00:56:37.385 --> 00:56:59.985
But the church has got an imbalance between guilt and fear and pressure and not enough on, to your point, promoting and extolling the positive aspects of the church in regards to teaching, reminding members that they're just wonderful.
00:57:00.326 --> 00:57:06.614
And let's face it, the strength of the church almost entirely is in the strength of its members.
00:57:07.615 --> 00:57:30.773
We've said this repeatedly, when the church allows its members to serve naturally, freely, with love, without constraint, without measurements, without those ties, without the fear and the guilt, oh boy, there's no other organization on this planet that can serve with love on this planet like members of the church.
00:57:31.454 --> 00:57:31.974
I know that.
00:57:32.155 --> 00:57:33.195
I'm not even in the church.
00:57:33.737 --> 00:57:38.264
You know that because you're in the church and you've experienced this as much as, if not more than I have, right?
00:57:39.204 --> 00:57:40.967
I think the church leaders hold it back.
00:57:41.007 --> 00:57:51.242
They've got the reins on the controls, like using analogy, on the horses and they're constraining it and limiting the church members.
00:57:51.702 --> 00:57:52.643
Let the members go for it.
00:57:52.664 --> 00:57:53.965
It's that talk that we heard, isn't it?
00:57:54.530 --> 00:57:55.471
Here's the problem with the church.
00:57:55.931 --> 00:58:01.501
If you let the members serve as they please, then do they need the church, right?
00:58:02.161 --> 00:58:23.525
If they serve with complete openness and freeness and spirit and following the spirit, wherever the spirit takes them, and they don't need programs or this or that or these controls or that particular thing to be measured by, and they're constrained, if they're unshackled, then the church doesn't have the control.
00:58:23.625 --> 00:58:26.547
You unshackle a horse, it's free to do what it will, right?
00:58:27.188 --> 00:58:30.532
And so the church won't ever do that, sadly, in my opinion.
00:58:30.592 --> 00:58:32.094
It will never unshackle its members.
00:58:32.675 --> 00:58:36.800
It will always have a system of fear and guilt.
00:58:37.442 --> 00:58:38.443
I don't see it changing.
00:58:39.244 --> 00:58:47.454
I don't think the church will, even if they hear these comments, I don't think they will do anything about them because it doesn't want to lose control.
00:58:47.494 --> 00:59:00.275
And it also, as members say, highlight the situations where people leave and their lives go up the rail, what do they say?
00:59:00.315 --> 00:59:01.358
They say, well, look, I told you so.
00:59:01.398 --> 00:59:06.545
This is what happens when you leave, quote, the safety and security of the gospel.
00:59:06.585 --> 00:59:08.268
That's the message.
00:59:08.750 --> 00:59:09.530
That's the tone.
00:59:09.971 --> 00:59:12.335
That's the reminder that you'll fail without the church.
00:59:12.876 --> 00:59:14.137
You're nothing without the church.
00:59:14.338 --> 00:59:14.918
You'll fail.
00:59:14.958 --> 00:59:16.842
You're not good enough with the church.
00:59:17.563 --> 00:59:18.905
Then you can be all these great things.
00:59:19.266 --> 00:59:21.469
And that's the hold that it has on the members.
00:59:21.929 --> 00:59:22.909
I don't accept it anymore.
00:59:22.969 --> 00:59:23.471
I don't believe that.
00:59:23.530 --> 00:59:25.432
I don't have the guilt that I used to have.
00:59:26.014 --> 00:59:29.217
You know, I beat myself up to death, you know, over missing the most.
00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:31.721
I slept in twice on the mission.
00:59:32.302 --> 00:59:33.702
I felt awful.
00:59:34.463 --> 00:59:36.887
A companion made me feel like shit.
00:59:37.688 --> 00:59:38.969
I felt like crap.
00:59:40.050 --> 00:59:43.034
And I carried that with me for a full day.
00:59:43.074 --> 00:59:45.998
And I vowed never to sleep in again.
00:59:46.038 --> 00:59:47.300
I slept in one of the time.
00:59:47.340 --> 00:59:49.061
That wasn't my fault.
00:59:49.313 --> 00:59:50.416
but still felt guilty.
00:59:51.297 --> 00:59:52.878
So I don't know.
00:59:52.918 --> 00:59:53.981
I just don't see the church.
00:59:54.081 --> 00:59:55.543
I think it's great to have this conversation.
00:59:55.583 --> 00:59:56.864
I'm hopeful, positive.
00:59:57.565 --> 01:00:14.510
I think the church will reference it, not this conversation, will reference some of the positive things that the church members do and may reference it that you're doing well, but it won't go beyond that because it needs to maintain a level of control.
01:00:15.190 --> 01:00:19.701
And so that's, you know, they're my, concluding comments or remarks at this stage.
01:00:20.702 --> 01:00:21.784
Well, I appreciate that.
01:00:21.824 --> 01:00:30.054
As I listen to you and you say, I don't think the church is ever going to change on this, I'm reminded of...
01:00:30.074 --> 01:00:34.018
I'm not sure who said it.
01:00:35.079 --> 01:00:38.364
My father used to quote it a lot, but I don't think he's the first person to say it.
01:00:38.465 --> 01:00:43.431
What he would say is, things that can't go on forever stop.
01:00:44.751 --> 01:00:45.893
They eventually stop.
01:00:46.626 --> 01:00:55.838
And I don't think the kind of guilt and fear that is being used to try and keep people in the boat, it's not working.
01:00:55.878 --> 01:00:57.360
It can't go on forever.
01:00:57.501 --> 01:00:59.483
So eventually it's going to have to stop.
01:00:59.563 --> 01:01:01.507
We're going to have to find another way.
01:01:01.547 --> 01:01:14.606
And I think the good news is that there is another way, that there are wonderful positives about the church that can be used to help build people, not scare them.
01:01:15.329 --> 01:01:25.123
to help support them, you know, not keep them unsettled out of fear and terror that one false step and it's all over for them.
01:01:25.784 --> 01:01:28.789
And they're just another crushed or licked cupcake.
01:01:30.411 --> 01:01:44.893
But the other thing is that as we talk about this, I am mindful of the people who listen to this, who are a wonderful audience out there that listens to these podcasts.
01:01:45.730 --> 01:01:54.523
Because what I am discovering is that a lot of these people are in what I now sort of call the borderlands of the church.
01:01:55.304 --> 01:02:01.351
There are people who are on the edge of the inside, or there are people who have left but still have connections to the church.
01:02:02.773 --> 01:02:07.221
There are people on the borders of the church, no matter which side they're on.
01:02:07.260 --> 01:02:13.610
And I think very often there are people who have dealt with this firsthand.
01:02:14.177 --> 01:02:17.123
in very painful and profound ways.
01:02:17.163 --> 01:02:23.211
And I want to say to them, I think you're good enough.
01:02:24.213 --> 01:02:25.476
I think you're wonderful.
01:02:26.217 --> 01:02:47.672
I think the fact that you still choose to engage with the church, however you choose to engage with it, even if it doesn't mean that you're engaging as a fully active member, the fact that you still care, the fact that you're still interested, the fact that you still have some kind of connection, I think it speaks well for you.
01:02:48.594 --> 01:02:56.606
I think it means that there is something good and decent and wonderful about what you are doing and how you are choosing to live your life.
01:02:57.387 --> 01:03:04.259
So you may not ever hear it from a general authority or an apostle or a prophet.
01:03:04.980 --> 01:03:08.324
You may not hear it from your bishop if you go to church.
01:03:09.121 --> 01:03:12.465
But I think you're wonderful.
01:03:13.045 --> 01:03:14.168
I think you're good enough.
01:03:14.608 --> 01:03:18.992
And more importantly, I think your heavenly father believes you're good enough.
01:03:19.753 --> 01:03:33.028
I truly believe that God loves all of his children and that it doesn't mean, that doesn't mean that you can just sit and eat bonbons all day.
01:03:33.048 --> 01:03:36.532
But I don't think anybody does that.
01:03:36.552 --> 01:03:37.233
That's the thing.
01:03:37.697 --> 01:03:48.329
is that I think everybody, I have yet to meet, I remember talking to somebody who phrased it this way, I have yet to meet a lazy person.
01:03:49.952 --> 01:04:06.429
I meet people who are misguided, who focus their attention on things maybe they shouldn't, or, you know, you could describe it, but people pursue a course that tries to bring them happiness and that tries to bring them joy.
01:04:07.170 --> 01:04:09.994
And sometimes that course isn't in the church.
01:04:11.056 --> 01:04:15.302
But whatever it is, whoever you are, God loves you.
01:04:15.521 --> 01:04:17.485
He loves you as much as he loves Russell M.
01:04:17.525 --> 01:04:17.965
Nelson.
01:04:18.686 --> 01:04:23.652
He loves you as much as he's loved anybody that has ever walked the face of this earth.
01:04:23.793 --> 01:04:28.280
You are as much a child of God as anyone else who has ever lived.
01:04:30.050 --> 01:04:34.474
That, I think, is one of the central, most powerful messages of the church, is that we really are.
01:04:34.554 --> 01:04:36.416
We are all children of God.
01:04:36.496 --> 01:04:38.518
We all have that divine spark.
01:04:39.318 --> 01:04:59.197
And leaning into that positive, wonderful message, I think, is the way the church goes forward, is the way the church grows, that the church grows on a culture of love and embracing the innate, central worth of every child of God.
01:05:00.034 --> 01:05:01.675
And that we leave fear behind.
01:05:02.076 --> 01:05:06.581
And I don't know when it will happen or how it will happen, but I am confident that it will.
01:05:07.483 --> 01:05:09.324
So those are my concluding thoughts.
01:05:10.547 --> 01:05:14.472
Do you want to issue a quick rebuttal before we wrap up?
01:05:15.273 --> 01:05:18.956
Other than to say I cannot improve upon what you've just said.
01:05:18.996 --> 01:05:21.599
Well, thank you very much.
01:05:22.041 --> 01:05:29.429
And you have said many profound things here that I think are going to resonate with many people who are listening because they resonated with me.
01:05:30.402 --> 01:05:41.221
And hopefully going forward, we can help to build this kind of positive, affirming faith and leave the fear behind.
01:05:41.422 --> 01:05:44.507
So with that, we conclude another episode of Inside Out.
01:05:45.007 --> 01:05:48.434
Thank you very much for joining us, and we hope you will join us next time.
01:05:49.034 --> 01:05:50.518
And thank you very much, Ian.
01:05:51.460 --> 01:05:52.702
Thank you, Hugh, Jim.