Casting Not Hiring: Build a Thriving Company Using the Secrets of Great Theater with Dan Sullivan, Joe Polish, and B. Jeffrey Madoff - 10xTalk Episode #249

Stop hiring. Start casting. Most companies hire to fill jobs, but the best leaders cast to build greatness. Dan Sullivan and B. Jeffrey Madoff go live with Joe Polish to unpack their new book, Casting Not Hiring, and show why the key to a world-class business isn't in resumés, job descriptions, or interviews. It's in seeing people for their unique strengths and casting them in roles where they can shine.

Here's what you're about to discover in this conversation:

• Why a head of internal medicine at Mount Sinai heard the title and said, "That's what I do," and how theater principles ended a turnover problem that wiped out his staff every 18 months.
• The one question Dan asked an Entrepreneur on his fifth marriage, and why the same question explains why great people "just aren't looking for you."
• Dan's 4x4 Casting Tool, including the quadrant built around a single request: don't drive me crazy.
• Why Jeff wants to strike the word "interview" from business entirely, and the one sentence he used to end an interview on the spot.
• The Four Seasons hiring jury where the general manager and the dishwasher both get a vote, and the two questions a candidate needs six yeses on.

Show Notes

The Competitive Advantage You Can't Automate

• Host Paul Colligan opens with a passage from page 10: technology, business models, and marketing can all be copied, automated, or outsourced.
• The one thing competitors can't replicate is the unique combination of people you've assembled and the chemistry they create together.
• Joe calls it the best one-paragraph summary of the entire book.

The Mount Sinai Turnover Problem

• Jeff's doctor, head of internal medicine at Mount Sinai, heard the title before hearing anything else and said, "That's what I do."
• His department turned over its staff every 18 months. Every hire had a world-class résumé, but they didn't work well together.
• A lover of theater, he started applying stage principles (shared vision, supporting each other) and the turnover problem disappeared.

Who Was There for All Five Marriages?

• An Entrepreneur on his fifth marriage tells Dan none of the five had anything in common. Dan asks if anyone was there for all five.
• The same pattern shows up with teams. There are plenty of great people everywhere, but "they're just not looking for you. They're looking for a great Entrepreneur."
• Casting Not Hiring starts with the Entrepreneur casting themselves first: what is your role in the Team?

A Role, Not a Job

• Dan's definition: a job description is "a checklist of everything you have to do not to get fired." It has nothing to do with teamwork.
• Theater is live, dynamic, and constantly adjusting, with new chances for people to be a hero.
• The goal is a Team member operating in their Unique Ability: something they're great at, love doing, and that makes everyone better.

Inside the 4x4 Casting Tool

• Quadrant one is how you show up when working with Dan: alert, curious, responsive, and resourceful.
• Quadrant two is results (faster, easier, bigger, better). Quadrant three is being a hero: creating a new capability that takes courage and builds confidence.
• Quadrant four keeps Dan sane: show up on time, do what you say, finish what you start, and say please and thank you.
• Every Strategic Coach Team member has one, and they're paid $300 each quarter they update it.

"This Is Cheating": How Gord Got Cast

• Dan sent Gord his 4x4 before they ever met. Gord treated the role as already his and mapped out his first two to three months.
• His final conversation with Dan covered nickel mining, grandparents, and sushi. Then Dan stood up and said the answer was yes.
• Gord was also the only one of three finalists who had listened to the podcast he was applying to manage.
• Eight years later, there hasn't been a single management meeting or performance review.

Given Circumstances: Stanislavski for Entrepreneurs

• Jeff borrows from Konstantin Stanislavski, the Russian director whose system shaped modern acting: always know the given circumstances.
• In business that means knowing what the company is, who the people are, what story is being told, and where you fit.
• The follow-up questions: what do you want, and what are you willing to do to get it?

Auditions, Not Interviews

• Jeff would strike "interview" from the business vocabulary and call it an audition instead.
• Skip the resumé questions. Ask about the last book they read, or whether they've ever gone out of their way to help a stranger.
• A candidate who admitted he knew nothing about Jeff's company heard four words: "The interview is over."
• Dan's filter is the questions candidates ask him. No questions means no engagement, now or later.

Spotting the Disruptor

• During a 40-dancer audition for Jeff's musical, one talented performer stopped rehearsal three times to call attention to herself.
• Director Sheldon Epps called it before she danced: "She needs to feel more important than anybody else in the room."
• Dan recalls an actor cast as the young Lloyd Price who had all the talent but made the show about himself instead of the play.
• Jeff's rule: talent is table stakes. It only gets you into the room.

The Four Seasons Jury and the Waiter Test

• Four Seasons runs a six-person hiring jury that can include the general manager and a dishwasher.
• Each juror answers two questions: would this person represent our culture, and would you enjoy working alongside them? Anything short of six yeses is a no.
• Jeff's dinner test: if a candidate shows no regard for the server, they're out. He wants people who relate to people, not to status.

Chemistry, Charisma, and Unique Ability

• Chemistry can be professional. Leading actors who couldn't stand each other still delivered electricity because they shared a mission.
• Charisma can't be directed. As Jeff puts it, Elvis was Elvis for a reason.
• Responding to an audience member, Dan shares that the head of Strategic Coach's knowledge products is significantly autistic, has been there 25 years, and is loved by everyone.
• The principle: line people up with where their talent naturally comes out.

Firing Yourself and Recasting Your Role

• Dan was Strategic Coach's first artist and handed it off the moment someone better came along. Every quarter he finds something new to stop doing.
• He stopped watching television in July 2018 and got back 800 hours a year, which now go into reading and exercise.
• Jeff's closing challenge: would you recast yourself? At certain intervals, maybe your role should change.

Resources

• Casting Not Hiring | Dan Sullivan and B. Jeffrey Madoff's book, out November 17, with pre-order bonuses including the 4x4 Casting Tool.
• Genius Network Annual Event | Apply to attend this year's Annual Event, where much of this conversation continues in the hallways.
• Strategic Coach Starter Kit | A complimentary starter kit for anyone wanting to learn more about Strategic Coach.
• Anything and Everything Podcast | Dan and Jeff's weekly conversation podcast, where the idea for the book was born.
• Personality: The Lloyd Price Musical | Jeff's musical about rock and roll pioneer Lloyd Price, now on its way to Broadway.
• The 4-Hour Body | Tim Ferriss's book, featuring photography by B. Jeffrey Madoff.
• 10X Talk Subscribe | Subscribe to future 10X Talk live episodes.