EP 3:43 Three Types of Chemsex User Profiles with Dr. Lockwood

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worked with directly who they started out like connector types where they're mostly doing euphoric things not numbing as much and then with in the couple of cases I'm thinking of specifically they experienced some pretty drastic traumas uh and then they shifted gears away from the the connecting type to more of the dissociator uh because the trauma was just too much for them it kind of really affected their sex chemsex sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone and GHB, among others.
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Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
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Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
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Alright welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
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Thank you for coming today.
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We want to get it the algorithm to get it into the eyes and ears of those who need it.
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Also AI is picking up on the podcast quite a bit.
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I hear a lot of people saying they found the podcast through AI like everything else I guess.
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But the more you get it moving I guess the more AI picks it up.
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I don't know I don't know how these things work.
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I just know that uh ChatGPT Claude and the rest uh are saying have you listened to this podcast?
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And so keep doing the thing we really appreciate it.
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So today I we have a return guest in the same season we liked him so much Dr.
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Dr.
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Patrick Lockwood was here and we did a podcast on meth-induced psychosis and paranoia.
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If you have not watched that episode or listened to that episode please do.
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It's very good.
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I got so much feedback from that Dr.
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Patrick Lockwood.
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I got so much feedback from that people feeling seen people feeling heard people understanding more about what's happening it really was the way that you described it the way that you presented it yourself it was very easy to understand as well.
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Okay.
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Nice.
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Good I'm happy to hear that and thank you for allowing me to come back well I had to have you back.
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Had to have you back because we had so many side conversations that that day on and off the air and so and um I just really like you as a person too um I like Patrick Patrick sends me a text every Monday at just about I try yeah I try I'm trying to I'm trying to do the right thing and be more connected with people because it's easy for me to get lost in all the things that I'm doing.
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So I have to remember that people are the most important thing and stop working you know yeah yeah I like that I want to follow suit and you know I've been growing this business for three and a half years now yeah and as an entrepreneur it's easy to put blinders on and I've had a lot of people in my life say where have you been it's hard it's it's really hard I think my one of my biggest struggles as a professional is remembering that the people are the most important thing because I get so caught up in all the things I have to do and all the tasks of my life and teaching and all these things and you know I just my life is better when I just try to connect with people and it's so it's so obvious but it's so like productive be productive don't connect you know like it's it's terrible you know yeah yeah yeah you know and for me I will say and and this is not a therapy session but there's this common misdistrust I have and this common like skepticism of what does this person why are they being nice to me?
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Yeah sure yeah you know it's like why is this person why is he texting me on a Monday asking me how I how I my weekend was what what does he want?
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Yeah yeah that's valid and I think I'm I'm built differently so I have the opposite reaction I think which is oh my God I'm so grateful they're actually talking to me.
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Well yeah I have that too yeah you know interesting yeah yeah I mean it's it's amazing the opportunity to actually connect with people like I remember when I was in undergrad and a much younger person and I took every relationship professional or personal for granted.
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I was just a mess in so many ways.
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And after a series of growing up moments and some therapy and things like that in the last 15 or so years I would say I've tried to refocus on what's important and I I forget so easily.
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Every six months or so it's like ah why are you not remembering people?
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What's going on with you?
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You know like you know I've had some good stretches where I'm super involved with people and then I have some stretches where I'm just like in my own head and neurotic and I have to make this plate spin and that plate spin and this and that and it's just like it's it's ego and it's selfish.
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And the more I get out of my head and into the lives of other people my life gets better.
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You know and sending a text message is not as you know it's not like a a drastic you know heavy weight but my brain is like I don't have the time to spend that 30 seconds right now which is so stupid because like people are far more important than whatever thing I'm supposed to be you know yeah yeah this is good good this is good for me to hear I'm sure I'm sure someone else that's listening it's good for them to hear also um because you know I mean there's that there's that whole phrase the opposite of addiction is connection.
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Yeah right it's really connecting really connecting with people and it's hard to do it's difficult to do in this day and age even though we are so connected yeah yeah there's just so many good excuses to like not connect and I I am so guilty of doing all the things to be busy and not connect with people.
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So that's why I have my Monday habit you know yeah I like that I like that I should get it's well I'm gonna yeah next time well next Monday when you text me I'm also gonna text a couple of people in response so it'll be like you're paying it forward.
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Yeah I love that I love that I hope it makes your life better it's made my life better so far.
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Yeah you know yeah well knowing you has made my life better and we have never met it really has I mean because yes it may just be a text but so many people don't and it's also made me reflect on oh and there's people not getting texts from me either.
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So yeah yeah it's easy to misunderstand how important we can be to each other and I you know I'm like you in that regard I don't know how big of a deal it is to people and then occasionally I'll get one of my friends from NorCal or other places like, you know, it really means a lot that you say hi to me.
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I'm like that feels great because like it means a lot that you're responding you know yeah yeah you know I love it.
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Yeah.
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Wow well thank you thank you for being here thank you for being you already having a positive impact on my life and I think a lot of people's lives with the podcast we had together.
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So well one thing that we talked about last time was you have a tremendous amount of experience in the recovery world and a tremendous amount of experience with chemsex and you've noticed some trends and you mentioned that you kind of could categorize chemsex users into different aspects or segments.
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And I thought about that after and we haven't talked about it since um you know it by the way anyone who's listening like if you can't tell I don't edit these uh podcasts I don't prepare for them I just sit down we have a you know you sometimes have a topic sometimes we don't and we just go with it yeah um and so we haven't talked about that but I thought I was thinking about it and I thought you know if I was having a a if if I was having a problematic relationship with chemsex and somebody had taken the time to kind of categorize me not to pigeonhole me but you know to take time to to study me and my my I don't know the the the way that I the reasons I'm doing it the reasons that I can't stop and this kind of things it could help me crack the code and find a way out.
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So that's what I'm hoping today we'll do.
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Yeah yeah I hope the same thing actually because this idea of mine which was kind of created when I was hanging out with our friend Mel and you know the the two of us being very different creatures but also having a very similar passion for this topic and this group of people um we were sitting down for coffee one day and talking about like what are our experiences and if we're going to do supervision about this, what we want to talk about with people, kind of transference, whatever it is.
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And it struck both of us that you know there are different kinds of people who use drugs and have sex in particular kinds of ways right so like you said not to pathologize people or to make people pigeonholed in a in a in a uh a separating kind of way but sometimes we feel more seen when our core motivations are revealed, right?
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It's like if I feel lonely and I do this behavior, well it's the loneliness that matters more than the behavior to some degree.
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Obviously the behavior does matter but really it's that core loneliness that's driving the behavior.
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So if we can talk about that, you know, especially as clinicians and things like that, we can we can get to the root of things and start to not just change behavior patterns which is important but also start to help the person feel understood in a way that maybe they haven't before in their life you know because you know I don't know about you but my experience in the world is when people really get me I feel safe.
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When they don't when they don't get me when they have a superficial view of me or when they have a a misunderstanding of me I feel less safe.
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And it's not that you know that's it's normal for people to misunderstand us, but I think in a helping relationship like you have with people and like I have with people, the more we can really help people feel understood by trying to kind of really target the core things that are happening, I think it's easier to work with people, to, to build trust and keep trust and so that's why that's why when I was talking with Mel, we were thinking out loud about these ideas because it seems to be fundamentally true that there are different types of people in the chem sex community that have different motivations for their patterns of you know sexual behavior and drug use and both separately and combined.
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Yeah yeah so let me let me give an example that's coming up for me if you don't mind and uh tell me if this fits in what you're saying so there's a there's a client uh let's just say this is a fictitious client so there's a client who I I noticed right away a pattern of emotional relapse first.
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Like some something would happen usually a mild inconvenience compared to you know subjectively I guess for me it's a mild inconvenience the response is pretty exaggerated by him.
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Okay.
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So then then that sort of primes his emotional dysregulation a little bit then some other things may happen and then he gets cravings and then he then he wants to use and so things might happen like he might drive by a house he used to use with or he may you know I don't know something something more but the cravings start to build and so then he then he would use so it occurred to me okay not any time during that did he mention he was horny or that he or that he wanted to have sex.
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There was no mention of that but what I noticed was he's trying to find a way to cope and numb his emotions now when he used did he have sex?
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Sure so so sex became what he did while on it but it was plain to me that it wasn't why he did it correct so is this kind of what you're talking about that's a hundred percent what I'm talking about.
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In fact you use the word numb and that's one of the three categories of types of use so that's that's you know and again these are just like concepts we came up with over coffee this isn't like some like in the in the literature for 50 years kind of thing to be clear.
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We were just talking about our experiences talking to people and treating people and things like that and like okay so what are what are the basic if you want to call them stereotypes you know or or loose clusterings of behaviors and symptoms right so like you know the three types that we or I mean my I did and we did kind of both came up with is uh we have people that use drugs and have sex for numbing purposes so you can call them numb numbers.
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Numbers and then you have you have people who uh engage in chem sex behaviors because they're really trying to connect their connectors.
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Right?
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Okay.
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Because they're they're they're chasing a sense of euphoria in connection okay you know what I mean?
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Yeah yeah and and then there's a a third category which are the dissociators.
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Okay.
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And so it might be a bit of an oversimplification to say that there's common behavior patterns and drug use patterns.
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However I think just kind of if you think about it off the top of your head it kind of makes sense these three types because a lot of these drugs that people consume and that I consumed and consumed and things like that, like they do serve specific purposes, right?
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It's it's not it's not a secret that alcohol for instance is a pain reliever.
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It's been used as a pain reliever across societies for thousands basically thousands of years.
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You know, it was used in surgeries and anesthesia and things like that.
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So a lot of people do drink to numb various types of psychological pain when they're depressed, when they're uh feeling hurt and rejected and all these things, right?
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So based upon my experience at different programs and working with different people, I see that there is a subset of people in the chem sex world who their sexual behavior and their drug use behavior is psychologically kind of focused on the experience of numbing whatever is intolerable.
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Okay.
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Now for people that you know don't use these words more technically sometimes it's easy to confuse dissociating and numbing.
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Yes.
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And and in reality numbing is not the same thing at all as dissociating because when you're numbing something you're still engaging and in contact with the experience you want to avoid right so when you numb pain you don't get rid of it.
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You just make it more dull.
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Right?
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Okay.
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Whereas if you're dissociating you're trying to completely escape from it.
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Okay.
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If that makes sense.
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Yeah.
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So a lot of people in the chimsex world that use drugs like alcohol in combination with probably um cannabis and things like that, they're probably more numbing and putting a positive spin on a negative experience.
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They have shame about their sexuality they have shame about their sexual interests and urges they have shame about this, that and the other so that shame is pain, psychological pain.
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And so they're using various substances to numb their pain.
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But the the pain could be anything it could be shame about I got broken up with shame about where I'm at my career.
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My family doesn't accept me just pick pick the topic whatever's causing that psychological pain or shame you know it's it's perfectly I mean think about all the normal places that LGBT folks hang out.
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It's mostly bars and clubs and it's mostly people that are numbing themselves to some degree you know that are quote unquote loosening up right but I I think that's fundamentally different than people who dissociate you know the people who use lots of sedative drugs like Xanex and Atavan and benzos or the people who use a lot of GHB or the people who use a lot of um ketamine.
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You know ketamine is literally a dissociative drug.
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GHB is literally a dissociative drug right so but the people who use these substances to dissociate while they're having sex there's something intolerable right in their life psychologically it could be themselves it could be the experience it could be it could be shame it could be any number of things but their goal is not to numb and make something that's difficult fun.
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Their goal is to make something that is difficult not real.
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Right?
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So if you're all ged out at some party or if you're all high on ketamine at the club and you're barely there right that's very different than being numb enough and having fun to compensate with how bad you feel does that difference make sense?
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Mm-hmm I'm getting it I'm getting it I guess when you name the three that's my what's going to be my first question is what's the difference between numbing and dissociating.
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What's your question?
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Yeah well that was my question when you first said it was what's the difference?
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But you're telling me here so this okay so to numb it we mentioned the the escaping the uh emotional dysregulation or the escaping the emotions you name you name that that client as a number yeah because he's just numbing that what seems intolerable is his he he he doesn't know how to process his emotions.
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Right.
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Right it doesn't feel safe to usually and so I need to numb it but also probably get some euphoria out of it so I don't feel miserable.
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Okay.
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Gotcha.
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But the a a disassociator doesn't want to feel at all anything.
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Right.
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Okay.
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Yeah and in fact they don't even want to be here I would go so far as to say in many cases.
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They don't want to even be in their life.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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And I don't mean that in the suicidal sense I mean that in the if I could be a ghost and not have to deal with the pressures of being a person and the trauma of my life and the shame of my life and the chaos of my life you know yeah yeah yeah it reminds me of when I was uh in the closet married two kids yeah just the misery that I was living in I did call myself a ghost you know like I was having an out of body experience all the time because I I didn't I didn't know who I was and I was in this life that confused me and I didn't want to be there and that did lead to some suicidal ideations but I'm guessing it doesn't always but that sounds like if I were to get into drugs at the time I would want something to completely take me out of my life for for a while.
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Okay.
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Yeah yeah that makes perfect sense yeah um okay so what about connectors?
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Yeah so again these might be more like stereotypes than real scientific reality sure yeah yeah which we love that here we love that here but for the sake of just for the sake of argument and if and if you don't want to try on these concepts at home you know it's okay.
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We're just we're experimenting with the model and hopefully the model evolves the more we talk to people like you and David and Mel and so on and so forth.
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Yeah.
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So um you know the connectors are interesting because their behavior usually is very different in public and private.
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And for instance a lot of people that are numbers will probably engage in chem sex behavior both alone and in public whereas dissociators believe it or not will probably do a lot of chem sex behavior in public.
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They'll be dissociated they'll be high on G at the club looking to hook up with someone but but the people who are connectors are almost exclusively Exclusively the kinds of people who do Kim Sex only in like public settings, like bathhouses and raves and so on and so forth.
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Whereas like in the rest of their life, they don't feel a strong need, comparatively speaking, to disengage from their normal conscious mind with drugs and sex.
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Okay.
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So they might use a lot of stimulants compared to the other two.
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Not that the other two types don't use meth or anything like that, but you might also see these connector types using more of the traditional club drugs like MOLLE and MDNA, and they're trying to have lots of collective shared euphoric experiences.
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Okay.
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Now they they still might be coping with pain and shame and things like that, shame about sexuality, or they're whatever, but they're they more exclusively are out and about doing the behavior and less exclusively doing it by themselves in secret, watching porn by themselves for hours on end kind of thing.
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Okay.
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Connectors are at the chill outs, as they call them in Europe or the P parties, the the orgies, the saunas, they're connecting.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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They want the collective experience.
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It's the collective euphoria and the rush.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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For those who lock themselves up in a bedroom for three days by themselves with their porn, then toys and and their drugs.
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Would that be a disassociate?
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I think I think it could be either.
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I think it depends upon the type of drugs they're using and the type of like sexual behavior they're interested in.
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Because, at least in my experience, again, it's just my experience for what it's worth.
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Yeah.
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There are people who are numbers who will happily sit in front of a laptop and, you know, sniff poppers and smoke weed and jerk off for hours, you know, or edge or whatever.
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Yeah.
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And like that group of people is definitely in the numb category for me because they're still trying to quote unquote get high to compensate for how bad they feel.
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And they still want to be here because they're not getting so high that they're not in touch with their body anymore.
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Okay.
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So they're they're chasing a euphoria that gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
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So they edge for longer and longer and longer, or they chat or video chat or whatever it is.
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And they're doing more and more and more of it because they're trying to compensate for more and more and more shame.
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And the more they do the behavior, the more shame they feel, even if they can't consciously recognize it.
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And so that could be a number.
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Whereas there are some people, I think, who certainly are dissociators and they spend time in private and they're super high on G or ketamine or something like that.
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And maybe they're not even fantasizing.
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And maybe they're not even having sex to some degree.
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But they might consider porn.
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They might start with porn, but then then they might give up on it.
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Or they might pass out.
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And it might be their goal to pass out for some.
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Some people do have a goal to pass out.
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You know?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Interesting.
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Interesting on that one.
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Okay.
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So I'm thinking of so there's a so for those who let's say they're they're fundamentally lonely.
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They feel lonely.
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Right.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:35.839
Um, they can't stand to be a Friday night alone.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:39.680
This was this was kind of what I I couldn't stand to be alone on a Friday night.
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:45.039
Like I I it would just drive me crazy, the FOMO, and I need to get reach out and all that kind of thing.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:55.920
When I when they use, instead of feeling the loneliness, instead of facing it and asking questions of it, they're going to go use.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.000
That's a that would be numbing that, correct?
00:25:58.079 --> 00:25:58.960
That would be a numbing.
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:00.559
Yeah, I think so.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:00.960
Yeah.
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:01.599
Okay.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:08.319
Because they're you're they're not trying to obliterate, like they're not trying to completely leave themselves.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.240
They just want to feel better.
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:11.119
Yeah.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:15.599
You know, I think, you know, this might be a ridiculous reference, so please forgive me.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:27.680
However, I think, you know, if you've ever watched the popular TV show The Simpsons, you can kind of see essentially what I'm talking about when they go to Moe's Tavern and get drunk.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:30.480
So you got Homer, who's the main character, right?
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:36.079
And, you know, he's working this job, he's got this family, and he's getting drunk because he didn't want to avoid his family.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:41.759
But then you got other people at the bar, if you know who I'm talking about, but there's this character at the bar named Barney.
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:46.079
He's this big fat dude who is always perpetually wasted.
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:51.519
I mean, he is he is so wasted that he can barely speak, essentially.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:52.480
Okay.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:53.119
Right?
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.119
And so that guy is dissociated.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:00.640
But Homer and his friends from the nuclear power plant, they're just, you know, they're just they're numbing.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:06.480
They're numbing because their lives are, you know, difficult in a way that they can't accept and all these things.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:07.759
Yeah, right.
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:08.559
Okay.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:10.079
Well, let me ask you about this.
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:17.279
What about those who use based on inflationary experiences?
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.279
Like life is going really well.
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:22.160
I get a I get a promotion at work.
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:28.000
Um, I meet a guy that seems to be like the best boyfriend material.
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:31.599
Like things things start to go really well and they use.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:32.480
Yeah.
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:33.119
Yeah.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:33.759
Yeah.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:35.519
Where do you think they fall?
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:37.119
That's a really good question.
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:51.680
Because for a lot of people, as you probably well know from your work with people too, like when things start to go well, self-sabotage is kind of lurking in the back somewhere for a lot of people in the back of our minds, usually.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.559
And so, where does self-sabotage generally come from?
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.559
It generally comes from shame, right?
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.960
I don't deserve, I am universally bad, you know.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:06.960
Um, and so when people are trying to compensate with shame, right?
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:11.519
Because for a lot of people, shame isn't always a conscious experience.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.480
Sometimes shame is more of a background noise experience.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:19.519
It's kind of it's like the devil, it whispers in your ear quietly, kind of thing.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:31.599
And so it might be the case that you get a promotion or you fall in love with someone, and you know, there's a piece of you, maybe a large piece or maybe a smaller piece, that's like, you don't deserve that.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:32.960
Right?
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:34.960
That that shame voice is there.
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:41.200
And so that might be the attempt to like overcompensate and numb your natural positive experience.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:50.079
So if you're if you're naturally just kind of happy and joyous because you just got a promotion or you just fell in love with someone, it's interesting that you want to alter that.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:51.599
You know?
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:52.960
So what are we altering?
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.839
Are we really trying to accentuate it?
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:02.240
You know, are we using like uh like a psychedelic kind of substance, like an MDMA or MOLLE?
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:10.880
Or are we using other substances and we're we're rationalizing, we're making an excuse that we're trying to enhance it.
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.039
But the truth of the matter is you're trying to blunt it in some way.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:15.440
Right?
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.240
It's the classic, I'm gonna go to the bar and celebrate with my friends.
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.880
It's like, well, yes, you're celebrating, but really you're not celebrating.
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.480
You're actually numbing yourself when you get wasted, you know?
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:29.759
So I'd always be curious about what the specific behavior is.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:43.759
Because if it's specifically like I'm again, I keep coming back to the easy example like Molly, but if it's like because that's more of a mood and euphoria enhancer than it is a number comparatively speaking, right?
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.559
You know, like 50-50, 40, 60, something like that.
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:49.759
You know what I mean?
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.640
I don't know if that yeah, no, yeah.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:30:08.319
I I'm thinking of specific clients here, but you know, um somebody who I noticed, you know, it's always easier for somebody else to notice, but I noticed each time they had a great date, they would relapse.
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:12.160
That sounds like a number to me.
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:13.200
Yeah.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.680
Cause it there's a there's there is a question of I don't deserve this.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:19.839
I'm going to fuck it up anyway.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:20.960
Isn't that right?
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:22.240
Or I'm not worthy.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.400
I'm not worthy of a healthy, giving man.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:28.640
Boyfriend material.
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:34.400
And and to me, I don't deserve this is the exact same thing as I am not worthy.
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:35.440
Yeah.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:37.119
You know, they're all the same thing.
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:38.319
It's all shame.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:38.799
Yeah.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:39.279
Right?
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:40.000
Yeah.
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.160
And that always leads me to believe it's probably more of a numbing experience than anything.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:44.720
Yep.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:45.359
Yeah.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:46.000
Mm-hmm.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:46.720
Okay.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:47.920
Okay.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:55.440
So if if I'm listening and I kind of see myself in one, maybe, maybe more than one.
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.319
I mean, could could I fall in more than one category?
00:30:58.720 --> 00:30:58.960
Yeah.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:01.599
It's yeah, Mel and I had this very conversation.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:03.920
Like, how how what does the overlap look like?
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:04.319
Right.
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:05.039
Right.
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:06.480
And I think it's true.
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:22.559
I think it's totally true that there are some people that have kind of a uh bipolar experience with this, where it's like maybe they have moments in their life where they're more of a connector, and then maybe they have moments in their life where they become more of a dissociator.
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:31.680
Like I've had a couple of people I've worked with directly who they started out like connector types where they're mostly doing euphoric things, not numbing as much.
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:38.079
And then with in a couple of cases I'm thinking of specifically, they experienced some pretty drastic traumas.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:38.640
Uh-huh.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:47.519
And then they shifted gears away from the connecting type to more of the dissociator because the trauma was just too much for them.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:49.920
It kind of really affected their sense of self.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:52.880
And so they really wanted to leave their sense of self.
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.480
It became intolerable, I think, for them.
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.079
So I've seen that before.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:21.599
I've also seen some people shift back and forth between like being a number and uh connector, because like if you just take the the average stereotype in the gay community in particular, if there's like a bar or a club or a rave or whatever, like a lot of people there are in the connector mindset, but they also have the capacity to be numbers.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:31.680
And so I think you might start out the night thinking you're one thing when in reality your kind of your unconscious mind has a real wish for you to be numb.
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:32.480
Yeah.
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:33.200
You know?
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:34.559
Sure.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:35.200
Sure.
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:57.920
I mean, you know, it happens when you're drunk, but it happens with with meth too, is maybe you start out maybe you start out as connector, and then the veil is the veil is lifted and you're reminded of what you've done or what your life is, or you know, your trauma starts coming up, you get emotional, and then you want to dive into let me disassociate here.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.240
Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:01.599
Absolutely.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:02.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:13.680
Yeah, I mean, in my own trajectory, I started out certainly as a connector, you know, because when I first started, because I was looking for connection in the gay community.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.160
Um, this was my ticket, right?
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:16.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:18.319
And so it was on and on.
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:19.519
I wanted to connect, to connect.
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:28.160
And then as time went on and I started slamming uh regul regularly, my life started falling apart and I lost my car, then I lost my job and all this kind of stuff.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:37.680
Then it turned into I'm going to put enough drugs in my veins that I don't have to face the destruction that's happening around me.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:39.039
I need to leave this.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:39.440
Yeah.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:40.319
That's right.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:41.039
Yeah.
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:43.359
I didn't care about the people.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:44.240
Yeah.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:44.720
Yeah.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:45.200
Yeah.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:46.559
Yeah.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:47.599
Yeah.
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:55.599
And to me, that's that's how tricky this is because, you know, as I said last time I was on here, I'm not anti-drugs at all.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:08.719
The problem, the problem that I face is, especially in our community, where we we have this minority status that keeps us separate from the world, from the people who don't understand us, the people who hate us.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:19.599
I think there's there's a there's a layer there of, well, we have an extra added pressure, perhaps, to go a little further than the average person.
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:38.320
You know, so if the if the average straight person doesn't feel as much pressure to escape or connect because they feel more accepted by society, you know, then we might be slightly more at risk, comparatively speaking, especially given how insidious these norms are.
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:53.519
It's perfectly normal, I think, in many of these, you know, commonly frequented settings, you know, like uh bars and clubs and things like that, for people to drink too much or to do a line of blow in the bathroom and so on and so forth.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:56.400
And that's not, it's not just a stereotype, it's a reality.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:01.039
You can go to any of the gay meccas, so to speak, and see it all the time.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:05.440
Every mini mini nights of the week, you know what I mean?
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:06.000
Yeah.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:16.719
And like between that set of cultural norms and the, I think the potential vulnerabilities of being a minority, I think we're at greater risk compared to other people.
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:30.480
So I think it's always important to be clear that drugs in and of themselves aren't the problem, but they can easily become a problem if we're not mindful of the type of relationship we have with them and why we use them in the first place.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:37.440
Yeah, I heard somebody say drugs, drugs aren't the problem, they're some they're the solution.
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:39.199
Yeah.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:42.239
And um they're super effective.
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:43.519
Yeah, right.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.360
Yeah, drugs are drugs are more reliable than people.
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:51.519
Yeah, they do what they're supposed to do every time.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:52.320
Every time.
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:56.400
You know, a shot of tequila is the same thing every time, right?
00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:57.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.760
And so that's more reliable, you know?
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:02.639
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:03.519
Yeah.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:11.360
Yeah, and I'm thinking that you're talking about minority stress and cultural norms and what it what it's like to be a gay person in today's world.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:22.559
So if you if you want to take a macro look at this, a whole culture, really, a whole community, a whole demographic is trying to numb.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:23.039
Yeah.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:33.280
Is is trying to connect and it's trying to disassociate, which is which is where I think the whole chem sex the the chem sex problem is rooted, right?
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:33.599
Yeah.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:34.400
Is it yeah?
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:45.360
We're we're getting we're getting run into and crammed into this whole world based on a macro uh a a macro effect, really, of what we're talking about here in a mic.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.480
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:48.639 --> 00:37:05.599
I mean, I think there's this really unfortunate relationship between, you know, um all these external social forces, especially, you know, marginalization, and the fact that we also choose to self-select.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:17.199
We choose, we make conscious choices to spend all this money and time and energy on these activities, as opposed to creating more gay gyms, gay coffee shops, so on and so forth.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:33.519
And so, like, we also bear some of the responsibility, at least half in my opinion, because we could certainly be doing things to create other businesses and other venues to relate to each other and have fun with each other and hang out and like not feel ashamed, you know.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:36.960
Like there's tons of opportunities, I think, you know?
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:37.679
Mm-hmm.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:38.719
Yeah.
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:39.599
Yes.
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:43.840
Well, that's a good, a good charge for you listening and for me, right?
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:50.320
Is to continue to work on alternatives to the answer to the you know, an answer to these problems.
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:56.960
Um so you mentioned when your core motivation is revealed, right?
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:00.400
What what's driving the behavior?
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:06.159
And so I I think in chemsex recovery, isn't that what we're trying to do?
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.440
Is what is your motivation?
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:28.880
So if I'm listening to this, do i I don't I don't know if you want to if you have an answer for this, and there isn't a a set answer or uh a one size fits all, but if I'm a number, what is that how does that help me get started down the recovery route?
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:32.239
How does that inform me?
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.519
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:42.239
Obviously, like you said, everyone is an individual, so their their path is gonna be different.
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:59.119
I would argue that the average person who mostly uses their drugs and sexual behavior to numb, I would argue that if that's your primary thing, then you know, learning to tolerate pain is a process, right?
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:07.119
And so obviously we want to try to identify if we can the sources of the pain, right?
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:15.280
And so just like physical pain can have multiple causes and consequences, psychological pain can too.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:22.559
You know, stubbing your toe is one thing, but having a sore, you know, right leg or something, is that from the gym?
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:24.559
Is it because I twisted my ankle?
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:26.239
Is it because my shoes suck?
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.239
Like, what's going on here, right?
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:33.599
And I think it's the kind of the same thing for psychological pain and shame.
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:38.639
It's like, is it just because of these social things that I feel shame?
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:41.039
Is it because of my behavior, right?
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:57.679
Because like there's a really tricky balancing act we all have to do as human beings, which is we have to recognize that there's a 50-50 interchange or balance of there's societal pressures and then there's my behavior and my values.
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:06.559
And so our behavior and our values sometimes conflict with society, but sometimes our behavior just conflicts with our values, right?
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:15.199
So, and anytime that we violate our values as a person, we're gonna be anxious and upset.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.639
You know, that's not weird.
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:21.519
There's an entire branch of psychotherapy called acceptance and commitment therapy that talks about that.
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.880
And, you know, ACT is the acronym.
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:38.159
And so ACT is great because, you know, once people start to align their behavior with their values more, they tend to feel more motivated to do what's better for them, whatever that is for them.
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:39.119
Right.
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:51.039
So, like, if one of my core values is grace, which it is, you know, so the way I grew up and how I've been shaped by the world and my personality and stuff, one of my core values is grace.
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:51.679
Right.
00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:02.400
And so the more that my behavior aligns with that value, the more I'm like not holding things against people, not having resentments and grudges against people, right?
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:14.000
The more I'm trying to be understanding and forgiving reasonably of people, the better my life goes because my behavior makes sense for who I am as a person.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.079
And I think that that's true for everybody.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:37.360
So if you're shame, if if you have some kind of shame, you know, and the shame is about your sexuality, the shame is about um just to pick an easy example in the chem sex community, a lot of people who engage in chem sex do not feel very important in their real life.
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:42.239
So they have this, they have like this double life that they live, right?
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:42.960
Right.
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:48.559
So like in their regular life, they're a manager or marketing employee or whatever.
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:51.679
Or even in our community, they're they're a healer of some kind.
00:41:52.239 --> 00:42:07.360
But because their professional life or their romantic life doesn't allow them to feel important, what they've done is they figured out a way to take all the shame about how unimportant they feel in their professional life and their romantic life.
00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:12.320
And they've kind of like cordoned it off and shoved it over here into Kim sex.
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:24.320
And so they'll go do, you know, sometimes ridiculous exhibitionistic things, or they'll try to, you know, as many of us do, like get an amazing shape so that we're the most sought-after top or bottom or this or that or the other.
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:25.440
You know what I mean?
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:43.119
And so that sense that that normal human need to feel important, which we all have, which if it's not getting met over here with your family and your friends, with your lovers, with your your work, and it's it's neglected over here.
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:49.519
Well, what we can do is we can find it over here in our sexual behavior, in our drug-infused sexual behavior.
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:57.039
We'll feel like those connector types, I'll feel maximally important because I'm the best guy at the orgy.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.519
I'm the nicest guy at the orgy, right?
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:00.639
Yeah.
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:04.320
And so that that's that core need.
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.599
I need to feel important, and I don't know how to do that elsewhere.
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:13.599
So our job, I think, is to figure out okay, where does that shame around feeling important come from?
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:14.800
Can we talk about it?
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:20.400
And then can we do perhaps the way I like to phrase it to my patients is can we do little experiments?
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:30.079
Because I think little experiments makes it seem like it's a more manageable task as opposed to like, you know, go be social in the real world.
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:31.519
It's like, no, no, no, no, no.
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.079
Like I I couldn't do that if you asked me to do that.
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:34.960
Yeah, you know.
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:35.920
Yeah.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:38.079
Yeah.
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:42.960
Don't feel important and and not feeling seen is is similar too, right?
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:43.519
I see that a lot.
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:44.079
Yes.
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:44.559
Yeah.
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:46.400
And we all need to feel seen.
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.960
These are natural needs that we have from the moment we're born to the moment we die.
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:57.039
It's just if they're not getting met appropriately in our regular life, they're gonna come out sideways somehow.
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.280
And that happens in chem sex all the time.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:06.400
So back to the numbers and back to what you said earlier, tolerating pain.
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:06.960
Yes.
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:14.159
So we've had we had several guests on the podcast who come back to this healing, feeling is healing.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:23.599
You know, is that there for a lot of men, you're avoiding feeling something, right?
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:29.119
You're avoiding that loneliness, or you're avoiding that unworthiness.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:34.719
You're avoiding whatever it is that you have to face, the rejection, like for me, right?
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:42.239
Like you're avoiding feeling that way, and the best way to bypass it is to numb it, right?
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:44.239
To numb yourself out with the drug.
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:55.679
So tolerating feeling the pain, it it sounds so simple to tell people to sit in that uncomfortable feeling and just be with it.
00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:01.920
You know, for one thing, it sounds too simple when men and men are like, it it can't be that simple.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.079
And then the other thing is, how do I do that?
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:05.920
Right.
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:07.920
And so there's a lot of questions around that.
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:18.079
But I really think this inability to tolerate the pain at least gives me as a listener some direction of there's what am I avoiding feeling?
00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:32.320
And if it's a Friday night and I'm by myself and I'm anxious and I can't, I I can't sit there, or or I numb, I replace meth, I numb out on TV or I numb out on my phone, at least, right?
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:38.320
Like what can you do to face it head on and sit with it?
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:39.519
Is that right?
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.559
I think sitting with it is very important.
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:45.920
However, as you said, you said it perfectly.
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:50.400
Saying it and doing it are not the same thing.
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:57.760
Wild wildly simple to say, but nearly impossible to do if you feel overwhelmed.
00:45:58.159 --> 00:45:58.800
Yeah.
00:45:59.039 --> 00:45:59.599
Yeah.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:05.440
And the the terrible thing is for a lot of us, the overwhelmed is again, it's like the devil's voice.
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:08.000
It's like it's in our ear quietly.
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.440
It's not always screaming at us, you know?
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:11.920
Yeah.
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:24.800
And so if it's back, if it's background noise, but it's insidious and toxic background noise, it's just perfectly understandable to just look at the phone more, watch more movies, whatever it is.
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:26.079
You know what I mean?
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:35.440
And so I always think starting small, whatever it is, like if we can start small and get good at starting small, then we can work our way up to bigger stuff.
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:38.559
So like maybe you don't have to sit there and think about your childhood for an hour.
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:41.920
That sounds torturous even to me, and I do this for a living, you know.
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:42.800
Right, right.
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:48.079
But like maybe it's like we start small with like, can I sit with this feeling for five minutes?
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:52.880
And the feeling doesn't have to be the end of the world.
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:55.840
You know, just as an easy example.
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:59.440
It's like, yeah, just give myself five minutes to feel it, not run away from it.
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:10.320
That way, by the way, for everyone who's listening, if they if they've never had this experience, once you realize you can do something for five minutes, then 10 minutes doesn't seem like much of a big deal, comparatively speaking.
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:11.039
Right?
00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:17.119
And then the the beautiful like side benefit of that is you start to feel more empowered.
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:19.360
Mm-hmm.
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:20.000
Yes.
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:22.880
Because you learn to negotiate with yourself.
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:24.480
Right.
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:30.400
Because you're in control, you're not at the whim of your subconscious urges, right?
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:32.000
Yeah.
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:32.719
Okay.
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:33.840
Good.
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:40.000
Yeah, because there's some clients I'll say, you know, okay, like you said, five minutes.
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:42.800
So feel I feel lonely.
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.840
The first thing I I feel myself do is my hand goes to the phone or my hand goes to the remote.
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:48.320
Okay.
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:55.039
Could you put it back down and wait five minutes and feel what that feels like?
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:55.920
Yeah.
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:56.880
Yeah.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.280
So so that's you're valid.
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:01.679
I just went, I need validation that I'm right on that.
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:03.679
But yeah, that's what you're saying, right?
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:04.639
Yeah, 100%.
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:10.400
I couldn't agree more strongly because five minutes can be an eternity, especially if you're very early in the work.
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:11.119
Yeah.
00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:12.559
But sometimes it's hard for me.
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:17.280
Sometimes it's hard for me to sit there for five minutes and just be at peace because I I should be doing something.
00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:17.920
You know what I mean?
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:20.239
Yeah, obviously BS, you know.
00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:21.280
Yeah, right.
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:21.840
Yes.
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:22.400
Okay.
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:31.119
Um, connectors, I think the if if we were going to give them a direction, I think the obvious answer is, well, make new connections.
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:31.679
Right.
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:37.679
But what would you say to a a connector in terms of what would be some of the first things we could do?
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.079
What would be some little experiments?
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:53.360
Yeah, I think for a lot of people, again, I kind of outlined this a few minutes ago with like a stereotype of someone who doesn't feel very important at work or in their relationship or with their friends or family.
00:48:53.599 --> 00:49:00.159
And so the thing I'd be curious about with that kind of person is okay, so where can we do a little experiment at work?
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:03.920
Or where can we do a little experiment with your friends or with your family?
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:05.920
Like, stupid idea.
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:07.679
Could you host a dinner?
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.960
You know, could you could you start a game night?
00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:11.760
You know what I mean?
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:20.880
Like these are obviously kind of low-hanging fruit things, but like, will that will the game night replace the euphoria of like going to the orgy and being the talk of the town?
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:21.760
Probably not.
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:26.239
However, you know, harm reduction, is that a better choice?
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:27.840
Probably, you know.
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:28.719
Yeah.
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:29.360
Yeah.
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:29.840
Yeah.
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:30.719
I like that.
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:32.000
Actually, I don't know.
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:34.639
Starting game night sounds pretty scary to me.
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.400
But so yeah, yeah.
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:39.039
Yeah.
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:41.679
And that that might be too big of a task.
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.800
So it might be like an easy example.
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:52.800
I had this person I worked with who was definitely a connector, and he was very good at his job, but he never took credit for anything that he did.
00:49:53.599 --> 00:50:01.519
And so in the public chats in the company and the email chains, it was always some one of his bosses who was taking credit for his stuff.
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:14.960
And so what we talked about is like, what would it look like to just actually assert yourself in a in a group message or in an email chain about like this was my idea, so on and so forth.
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:15.760
Yeah.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:18.960
Proactively, not reactively, proactively.
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:19.599
Okay.
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:26.079
And uh that didn't that didn't cure anything, but it allowed him to f it allowed him to feel more important.
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:26.960
Yeah.
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:27.679
Yeah.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:28.320
Yeah.
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:33.920
And it it feels like to me, boundaries is going to fall into this category too, right?
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:48.159
Somebody who could set some boundaries um in terms of what they tolerate, who they hang around with, what they, you know, saying saying no when they mean or saying yes when they mean no, or you know, this kind of things.
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:49.039
Oh yeah.
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:49.679
100%.
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:50.559
Yeah.
00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:51.199
Yeah.
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:51.840
Yeah.
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:52.400
Okay.
00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:52.880
Okay.
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:58.960
So a disassociator, a disassociate, or whatever we want to call it, a disassociator, maybe.
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:01.039
Um, what are we what are we doing there?
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:13.599
What do we what do we start if that's if we see ourselves in this what we're describing as you know, it's tough because there could be in many cases more complexity here.
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:20.239
Like I said with one example, some people have a lot of trauma, and so they just do not want to be here, right?
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:20.719
Yeah.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:21.280
Right.
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:30.400
And so obviously, I always want to make sure they're not suicidal or there's no nothing like that, and just make sure they're okay in that regard first.
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:37.199
But after that is done, then I want to understand what is so unbearable about being here.
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:42.800
That's the thing I'm very curious about because it could be that life has no meaning anymore.
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:44.400
That happens for some people.
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:53.280
For other people, like I said, they're so traumatized that their body has no more value anymore.
00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:59.280
Or they were in such an abusive relationship that their mind has no value anymore.
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:15.199
Maybe their body still does, so they're happy to abuse their body in some way, shape, or form, or use their body to feel pleasure in some way, but their mind is meaningless, so they're happy to be ged out or uh, you know, you know, barred out or whatever it is, you know what I mean?
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:20.000
And so I always want to recognize that it could be complicated, number one.
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:25.360
And number two, there's something that no longer has any uh value anymore.
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.440
It could be their mind, it could be their body, could be both.
00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:28.079
Okay.
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:28.639
Okay.
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:30.239
Yeah, or their life.
00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:30.639
Yeah.
00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:32.400
Or just generally, yeah.
00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:32.880
Yeah.
00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:42.159
So for someone who has lost a very close loved one, they could feel like their life has no meaning or value anymore.
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:43.039
I've seen that.
00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:44.639
Oh yeah, me too.
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:45.440
Right.
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:56.239
Um, somebody, so uh talk about going through from one to another, I see oftentimes they may start as a number or connector.
00:52:56.480 --> 00:53:00.320
They contract uh are they uh contract?
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:01.039
What am I saying?
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:01.360
What am I?
00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:02.480
They they get HIV.
00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:04.239
Yeah, yeah, contract, yeah.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:06.320
Contracts, I don't know why that doesn't sound right.
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:11.039
They they contract HIV, then they become a dissociator.
00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:12.639
Because my life is over.
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.199
My life is over, my body has no meaning.
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:16.239
I have no meaning.
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:18.239
I'm damaged, goods, right?
00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:19.039
Yep.
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:20.159
Yeah.
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:20.960
Yep.
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:21.599
Yeah.
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:22.480
Yep.
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:31.119
Yeah, and so anyone who falls in that that category, I I would definitely suggest some therapy.
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:34.000
Sorry, some trauma therapy, I would say.
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:40.480
That's not, you know, those are there there's certain clients that come to me when I know right away it's above my pay grade.
00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:51.119
Um, you know, and it's like I I can at least maybe point out this this could be something to help me like, do you fall in this category?
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:52.559
Is this your motivation?
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:56.000
Now let's take that information to a therapist, right?
00:53:56.159 --> 00:54:01.199
Because it's usually pretty deep, pretty deep traumatic injury, I would say.
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:02.480
Yeah, likely.
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:02.960
Yeah.
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:03.679
Likely.
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:08.000
But again, not everybody's the same, or we can't just stereotype at all.
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:09.679
Um, yeah.
00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:12.480
Interesting, very interesting.
00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:18.159
And I I really thought that maybe I could stump you and come up with an example that didn't fit these three, but I didn't.
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:19.280
Go go ahead.
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:20.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:21.119
I couldn't.
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:25.679
Yeah, it's to for for us, it's an evolving conversation.
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:33.119
So we're gonna keep exploring and maybe eventually come up with like a test or something like that if we can to see if we can figure it out.
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:37.599
Yeah, I think that'd be great, like an assessment of you know, why you come up.
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:44.559
And then once you know, again, once you kind of know, then you could get a more tailored tailored plan, right?
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:50.079
Um, and know kind of what little ex I like that you said little experiments.
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:53.440
These these little experiments we can do.
00:54:54.079 --> 00:55:00.880
Um, because I've always said like whatever I I I ask people, you know, what are you getting from the Kimsace experience?
00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:05.679
And once you know what you're getting, then you need to give that to yourself.
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:10.400
It it sounds again too simplified, like just feel it.
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:11.760
Right.
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.360
But at least it gives you, if you're feeling overwhelmed about like, how can I ever stop?
00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:21.039
Or how can I ever get through this?
00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:25.519
At least having some little like, oh, this is why I'm doing it.
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:28.719
And just because you figure out why you're doing it doesn't solve it.
00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:29.519
Right.
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:36.480
But it can give you some kind of hope or some kind of direction or light at the end of the tunnel, I would say.
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:39.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:41.519
So what did I miss today?
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:43.119
I don't know.
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:44.239
Patrick?
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:45.840
I don't know.
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:52.480
Is there something uh I you that we didn't cover that you think would be important in this discussion?
00:55:57.760 --> 00:55:59.280
I mean, I don't know.
00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:01.440
I don't I don't think so.
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:07.760
I just you know, just to reiterate a couple of things that we both said, it's like everyone's an individual.
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:13.440
So it may not be the case that any of these things like perfectly fit you or something.
00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:29.599
And uh the other thing to reiterate from the very beginning of this conversation is what you said, which is you know, with full respect to people being individuals, these ideas are not meant to pigeonhole you and like typecast you.
00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:40.639
It's just perhaps if one of these three models or more fit you, maybe that's a sign of something that's going on inside of you, perhaps.
00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:50.960
You know, so just worth being curious about because for a lot of people, shame is a big part of it, but shame doesn't manifest the same for everybody, you know?
00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:52.320
Yeah, yes.
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:56.079
And I really love the uh I mean you haven't said this.
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:57.360
I just got the idea.
00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:02.719
But I really love the idea of having case study scenarios.
00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:08.320
And so I can read that and see myself in it, right?
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:14.079
And then in that case study scenario, it revealed that this person is a number.
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:15.840
This is what this person did.
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:28.639
Not to say you have to follow it, but maybe you get some ideas, maybe you get some direction, maybe it gives you a starting point to say, I at least I can I can feel seen and understood by someone else's story.
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:41.760
So if you could, you know, if this evolves and you could come up with little case studies and you know, little stories to read or something, you know, it can pretty it more illustrate to kind of what the types look like.
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:43.360
Yeah, absolutely.
00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:44.880
I think that's very doable.
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:52.400
Uh, between you and Mel and David and me, we could probably come up with dozens and dozens and dozens of sure, you know.
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:53.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:54.719
Yeah, yes, yeah.
00:57:54.880 --> 00:58:10.960
Yeah, I'm I'm trying to, I'm thinking about starting a different podcast called uh Chemsex Client Case Studies, where I bring actual case studies to a professional like yourself and ask, what would you tell this person?
00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:11.519
Right.
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:17.119
Um it has, you know, it's gonna have to be generals, generalized, yeah, obviously.
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:24.880
Um, but in these case studies, I know that because what you're saying here is that a lot of people fall into similar categories.
00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:32.880
If I'm if you're listening and you hear a case study, to me, I think you could latch onto that easier and say, oh, that's me.
00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:34.880
I I I see myself in that.
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:47.599
And then getting the idea from a from a therapist, a clinician, a a counselor, a treatment center director, or something like that to say, in that case, this is what you know, this is my advice to that that person.
00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:50.800
So I I'm thinking that that might be helpful.
00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:51.679
Yeah.
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:52.719
Could be cool.
00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:54.880
And helpful for clinicians, too.
00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:57.760
That that are new to that are new to chem sex, right?
00:58:58.079 --> 00:58:58.400
Agree.
00:58:58.559 --> 00:58:59.360
Completely agree.
00:58:59.519 --> 00:58:59.760
Yeah.
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:00.880
Yeah.
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:04.400
Well, thank you so much for coming back, Patrick.
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:05.519
Really appreciate it.
00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:06.880
And I appreciate you.
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:10.000
Um, this was this was really enlightening for me.
00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:11.760
I wasn't sure what to expect.
00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:13.519
Um, and I I like it.
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:14.159
I like it.
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:21.039
It's going to inform my work as well, which is helpful, helpful for me and helpful for my clients.
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:21.760
Awesome.
00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:27.440
Well, I really appreciate the chance to come here and have a conversation with you and explore things together, you know?
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:28.000
Yeah.
00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:28.400
Yeah.
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:29.280
It was fun.
00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:30.159
It was fun.
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:31.119
All right.
00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:32.719
Well, I'm going to let you go.
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:43.360
And if for you all listening, if you have want to join in the conversation, you can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube, you can also DM me on any social media platform, anywhere.
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:45.199
I'm everywhere out there.
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:51.920
Um, and if we if Patrick has a contact information he wants to share, we'll put that on, we'll put that in the show notes as well.
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:56.079
And don't forget, there is a supplemental study guide that goes along with every episode.
00:59:56.159 --> 00:59:57.440
The link will be in the show notes.
00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:03.360
It'll be a summary of the episode and some suggested journal prompts, actionable exercise, and reflective questions.
01:00:03.519 --> 01:00:03.920
All right.
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That being said, we will see you next week.