Turning Pain into Purpose: A Journey of Post-Traumatic Growth (Episode #73)

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Music.
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Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner, Marianne Michaelis.
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Marianne, it's a beautiful day.
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Dr. Skinner, today is a fantastic day and I'm so thrilled to be here.
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To our listeners, we're going to be talking about post-traumatic growth.
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We've talked a lot about PTSD, post-traumatic stress, that is often a byproduct
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of infidelity and sexual betrayal and how the betrayed partners experience a lot of PTSD symptoms.
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But we want to turn our attention to the growth process, shifting away from
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the trauma and into growth mindset.
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A few years ago, Richard Tradeschke and Lawrence Colquhoun wrote an assessment
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called the Post-Traumatic Growth Inventory, where they looked at different dimensions
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of how we grow through difficulty and adversity.
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And today we're going to be talking about specifically how to grow through adversity.
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Marianne, where would you like to start us today?
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Oh, as you know, Dr. Skinner, I've already shared with you a little bit just
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before we started that today is really a momentous day.
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I just have to start there and then we'll go backwards. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
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Because this is really deeply personal for me.
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And today I'm going to share some of the reason why and what it's looked like for me in my own journey.
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But the reason why I'm saying this is such a momentous day is because today,
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Just like an hour ago, the U.S.
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Supreme Court ruled on the Free Speech Coalition versus Paxton,
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which is the adult industry, the porn industry, versus the state of Texas regarding
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age verification laws for children.
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And the Supreme Court upheld that it is legal and it does not violate the Constitution
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to protect children online through age verification.
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This is so so huge and this
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is a really big part of my own personal story of
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my own post-traumatic growth so hopefully those of you watching on
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youtube can see marianne's excitement but maybe more important is it's going
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to influence what i've been referring to as the wild wild west of the internet
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and give more structure for age verification are there any other things that
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we ought to be aware aware about related to this new ruling well it changes
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a lot of things it changes,
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first of all, that in order to access porn, instead of 62% of children being
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targeted and finding porn last week without even looking at it,
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it's now creating some age gating, which means that if I want to look at porn,
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I need to be able to verify that I'm over 18.
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That needs to happen from the porn sites and those who are sharing and pushing the adult content.
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And so So it's just some gates to help create some safety.
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You know, it's kind of like with a toddler, you put up gates so they can't fall down the stairs.
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That's basically what this ruling does. I do think it's important to look at this as a beginning.
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For the last couple of decades, we had the explosion of the Internet.
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We didn't really know what it really meant.
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We don't have a lot of data and research on how this has impacted kids because
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we don't do a lot of research on kids and how porn impacts them.
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So we've been in this no man's land.
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And so this is now saying, no, we've got some definitives.
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But I also think that this is also pivotal because if I'm a billion dollar industry
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built on exploitation of human beings, sexual exploitation, I'm going to go
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somewhere. And we're also standing on the brink of this new abyss of AI.
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And I believe that it will be shifting. And so we'll probably need some more
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legislation and more protections for children.
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Once again, the courts have said this isn't about protecting adults.
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They can do whatever they want to do, but children need some protections.
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Yeah, well, no different than, say, tobacco or alcohol age verification.
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If I want to go into a store and purchase either of those, I need to.
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Right. So that's really what we're saying here. That's what the ruling is,
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is now randomly getting online.
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I'm going to need to verify if I'm going to intentionally choose to look at
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pornography. Sure. And I think that can feel alarming to a lot of people.
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Like, oh, no, part of the Supreme Court case, the free speech coalition said,
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well, this is going to have really a chilling effect.
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It's going to make people think twice before they do.
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They may be worried about what does age verification mean? But I think it's
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also important to realize that a lot of the Internet was built by this industry.
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You need to be 18 to have a credit card. You can do age verification just through
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possession of a credit card.
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So there's a lot more out there. It's a lot simpler and easier than we think. And this isn't new.
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A lot of the European nations, a lot of other nations have already done this.
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So we're not leading this out. This is something that's been done in other countries,
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European, you've identified.
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So let's do a couple of things. And I know you're excited to talk about this.
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Relaying this to post-traumatic growth. Yeah.
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There's a story there that you're excited to share that I think is important
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for our listeners because this has been a journey for you, Marianne.
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In fact, you went to Washington, D.C.
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As they were presenting their cases, if I recall right. And so now we've been
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waiting and waiting and waiting. And today is the day.
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Today is the day. We've been waiting for it anxiously. Yes. So,
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yeah. So I want to jump in if I can then just to.
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Yeah, please. For me, when I look at post-traumatic growth, when I look at healing,
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when I look at recovery, I think we have to find meaning.
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We have to find a way. Like, this is existentialism at its core.
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What is my purpose? What is my meaning? What is the meaning of this?
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And so I want to back up just in my own story in 2015.
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So 10 years ago, I remember sitting in a group of betrayed partners and the
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therapist saying, you know, we were talking about sometimes religious leaders
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or other people can say really damaging things that they don't understand,
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betrayal, trauma, and recovery.
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And this specific individual said, sometimes we have to be the educators.
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And those may not be the exact words, but that was what I heard.
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And that has echoed down the chambers for me for 10 years.
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Sometimes it falls on us when we've gone through hard things,
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when we've gone through traumatic things.
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There is power that comes in finding purpose and meaning.
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Viktor Frankl's book is all about that. So it's about finding meaning in the
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moment and finding our way.
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Maybe this is the best way I can say this is from all experiences,
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we have to give it meaning.
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Everything that we experience, we have to give it meaning. And more often than
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not, we don't give it meaning because it was just meaningless.
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But when events, maybe discovery, or maybe a car accident or maybe any other
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traumatic event, our brain pays more attention to things that are more emotional to us.
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So the stronger the emotion, the stronger the imprint upon our minds.
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So any intense experience is going to, we're going to pay more attention to
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it. It's just the way our brains work.
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So that makes a lot of sense to me, right? So we've got to make sense of every experience.
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And yet when it's traumatic-based, our brains go, oh, I got to pay close attention to this.
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What do I do with this? And that's what you said, right? Maybe we're the ones who are teaching.
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Maybe I'm the one who's giving a voice to this experience.
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Making a difference. And what I think is really important about that,
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Melody talks about victimhood.
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It can be really easy to say, this happened to me. I'm a victim.
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I didn't ask for this. I didn't agree to it. I didn't know it was going to happen
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to me. And I'm not okay with it.
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We all have lots of things that happen to us where we are into that victim place.
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Melody says, we have a nanosecond.
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For a nanosecond, we grieve and we go through that. I was a victim.
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I didn't choose this. I didn't want this.
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But we can't thrive there. We can't heal in that victim place.
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And so we grieve that, we acknowledge it, and then we have to get up and we have to move on.
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I want to clarify also, this finding the meaning, at least in my own story.
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A door opens here and a door opens there.
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It's not, I just don't want to paint the wrong picture.
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Yeah, more important because I think in that journey, and as a therapist,
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when I look at clients who are really in the healing journey,
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initially there's this mindset of maybe I'm not enough.
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Maybe I'm a failure. Maybe I've let everyone down. Maybe I'm stupid.
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Maybe I'm unlovable, right? And then as the meaning shifts, and which it really
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does as people heal, I am enough. I am lovable.
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I am important, you start to see this process, but my relationship's struggling.
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And so I'm doing okay, but the relationship's hard. And so it's not just a smooth
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path, as you're saying, we give meaning to this, but growth is a likely outcome.
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As we start turning and learning and growing, because that's what I want to
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learn from you today, Marianne, is, okay, so that was 2015, 10 years ago.
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If I was to ask you to describe the path, are we playing chutes and ladders
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where we start and we go back three steps and we, right?
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What does this actually look like for you to the point where today you're sharing
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this, making a difference in thousands of people's lives?
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I think chutes and ladders is pretty apt. That's what it's felt like.
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You know, for me, I believe that all healing is spiritual, that there's a spiritual
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component because it's about congruence with ourselves.
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And I'm a woman of faith. And so for me,
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part of my journey, a big part of my journey has been reaching up to my higher
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power and looking for that meaning and looking for when I maybe don't have the
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attachment with my spouse because of the betrayal.
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Feel I've had to look someplace else for, am I okay?
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Am I enough? And for me, that's been my higher power.
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That's been a place where I barely, and you know, when we talk about healing
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and growth, there's usually 12 steps that we talk about that incorporate that.
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For some of my clients, they struggle with that where they don't necessarily
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have that to fall back on.
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But what I found is even if we talk about a family member who's passed away,
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like my grandma really, really loved me, we can even pull that into like,
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what would my grandma say right now?
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But finding a place where we can look outside of ourselves for love,
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perspective, and connection, I think is a really important, essential element
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of this healing recovery journey.
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You know, Marianne, as you describe this, going back to that research by post-traumatic
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growth, they're talking about you develop more of an appreciation for elements
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of your life, things that maybe in the past we took for granted.
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But now I'm like, I actually appreciate this friendship or this part of because
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I've had to lean on somebody.
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So I have a deeper connection if we've been fortunate enough to find that person.
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Or maybe appreciation for myself, like realizing, you know, I'm actually,
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for so long, I thought I was maybe negative.
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There's something negative about me. And I realized I can do hard things.
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Yeah. And to me, that's the growth that we're looking at is the resiliency.
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I run groups for men and women.
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And I'm telling you, some of the most resilient people, listening to their stories
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and how they work through things and their growth and their commitment to growth,
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it's absolutely something that's one of the most beautiful things that I've observed.
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I love that. one of the maybe jaw-dropping, kind of stopping exercises that
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I experienced probably about a year into my healing recovery journey was when
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somebody said, you know, I want you to take a piece of paper.
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It was a therapist who said, take a piece of paper and I want you to draw a
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line down the middle. And I want you to write on the left side,
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like, this is what it looked like when I started.
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This is where I was a year ago. And I want you to write, this is where I am now.
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And to to be able to look at and compare. Most of the time in the moments,
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we don't notice. We're living in the moment, especially in trauma.
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Other people can look and say like, oh my goodness, how could you do that?
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We don't have that outside perspective, but taking that step back and looking, we see the growth.
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But usually in the moment, it's like when you look in the mirror every day,
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oh, do I look any different? I don't know.
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We don't see it. It's imperceptible in many cases.
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So Marianne, a couple of concepts you already talked about. One is it deepens relationships.
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When we're growing, something happens. And it usually is that we begin to create
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connections with people.
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And that's one of the things I've observed in the groups that I run is they
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start, many of them who have said, I've been so alone. I felt isolated.
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I couldn't talk with anybody.
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And now part of the growth process is actually creating connections, support.
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And you described what your experience was 10 years ago.
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How many of those people are you still friends with?
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Yeah. And because of the therapist that was in the group that really encouraged
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me, I ended up meeting you.
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And I've been really incredibly influenced by the really good people,
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the mentors that have been in my life as I have walked through this journey.
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So because you entered in the path, you met somebody and then that person introduced you.
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Then I got to know you through when you were becoming a certified sex addiction therapist.
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But if I look at this process, I'm going to say, How many others were key or
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influential in your journey?
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Oh, yeah, there's been hundreds. Let me slow it down just a little bit because
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I want to almost highlight some of the rockier spots if I can.
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Yeah, let's do some rocks. So I hit a point where I had to really have some
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hard conversations with my higher power,
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looking for that meaning and purpose and saying, if you knew that I was going
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to experience these things, if you knew that all these things that I didn't know,
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what's the purpose of this? There's got to be a greater good for this. What can I find in this?
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And when I started asking those questions and saying, well, help me figure out
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how to utilize this in a healthy way or in a way like help me find some meaning
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from this because I don't want to just suffer this and just like stuff in a
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box and not have anything come from it.
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So if there's a reason behind this, help me understand and see it.
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I'm open and willing to that. And then my hasn't lost his job.
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And then we moved from Florida, where I love, like in Florida,
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there were amazing community and connections, and we were so held there.
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I had some really great relational, or just relationships there.
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We moved to, across the nation to Washington State.
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I didn't find connection. I was struggling so much.
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Somebody said, Marianne you need to become a therapist you need to go back to
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school if I had been fully fulfilled if I had been thriving.
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Relationally in this new space I probably wouldn't have gone back to school
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but because it was so hard I said I've got to do something with this and so that pushed me to.
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Getting my degree, going back to grad school. And so there were some really
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hard places in there that because of the scarcity of connection that I really
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needed, it was like, okay, I've got to channel this into finding some meaning
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to help others with this.
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So part of the meaning that you say that you're giving to it is like,
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I'm going to help, I'm going to contribute, I'm going to be engaged in this
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process of educating and informing, and then in the process,
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becoming a therapist to really help people who are suffering.
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I don't want anybody to have to go through what I've gone through.
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How can I make it better for somebody else?
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Especially related to this case, the Supreme Court case that we're talking about today.
00:15:44.968 --> 00:15:50.048
As I was in grad school, our school district gave all of the students,
00:15:50.288 --> 00:15:54.048
like 15,000 students, Chromebooks, which happens in a lot of places.
00:15:54.048 --> 00:15:56.828
But they gave them to them and they didn't have appropriate filters.
00:15:57.128 --> 00:16:01.208
And I had several parents come to me because they knew that I was pretty vocal
00:16:01.208 --> 00:16:06.088
in this area. And we had actually started an anti-pornography coalition in that
00:16:06.088 --> 00:16:08.908
time, just trying to educate people about the harms of pornography.
00:16:09.028 --> 00:16:12.468
People came to me and said, hey, like, what do we do with this?
00:16:12.808 --> 00:16:15.748
And so we started going to school board meetings for 18 months.
00:16:16.128 --> 00:16:20.048
We went to school board meetings and said, hey, you've got to do something. This isn't okay.
00:16:20.348 --> 00:16:23.048
We've got to protect our kids. and the school board just kept saying,
00:16:23.268 --> 00:16:26.068
yeah, they just were so non-receptive.
00:16:26.228 --> 00:16:31.188
And I worked so hard. And when I walked away, I was just gutted.
00:16:31.708 --> 00:16:37.528
They did nothing. They refused to do anything. And oh, that was like the chutes and ladders.
00:16:37.668 --> 00:16:39.948
I can't do anything. What do I do? Like, there's nothing I can do.
00:16:40.068 --> 00:16:44.648
A helpless state is like, I put all my energy, all my heart into this and the
00:16:44.648 --> 00:16:46.468
outcome, it was meaningless.
00:16:46.948 --> 00:16:51.408
It didn't change anything. And then I picked myself up and I said, fine.
00:16:51.708 --> 00:16:55.188
Like my little fighter defiant part said, fine. You want to fight?
00:16:56.868 --> 00:17:00.368
I get a little feisty sometimes. I'm going to go to the state level then.
00:17:00.468 --> 00:17:02.828
If I can't do anything locally, I'll go to the state.
00:17:02.988 --> 00:17:07.468
And I started working with my representatives on some legislation and it got bogged down and it died.
00:17:07.948 --> 00:17:10.148
And so once again, I was just like, oh, man.
00:17:11.248 --> 00:17:16.608
And so I focused on working with my clients. And then last fall,
00:17:16.908 --> 00:17:21.448
somebody came to our CSAT community of a sex addiction therapist and said,
00:17:22.028 --> 00:17:25.788
hey, is anybody interested in working on some advocacy work?
00:17:26.849 --> 00:17:32.109
Regarding online verification for porn. And you should assume,
00:17:32.209 --> 00:17:33.949
I was like, me, me, me, pick me, pick me.
00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:39.929
And here's the part that I've really found a lot of redemption in my story of
00:17:39.929 --> 00:17:44.129
the pain that I've gone through, like that finding that why was realizing when
00:17:44.129 --> 00:17:47.769
I was helping write this amicus brief, which was part of the Supreme Court case,
00:17:47.969 --> 00:17:52.049
I was able to cite, I was able to go back through all of those school board
00:17:52.049 --> 00:17:56.029
minutes from the meeting minutes that were published.
00:17:56.029 --> 00:17:58.489
They were online. They were official record.
00:17:58.949 --> 00:18:02.469
And so the some of the arguments that we used in the amicus brief,
00:18:02.529 --> 00:18:06.129
I could say, hey, here's a newspaper article where it talked about this.
00:18:06.229 --> 00:18:09.509
Here's all the parents upset about it. Here's all the students that were showing
00:18:09.509 --> 00:18:13.409
up at the school board meeting saying we don't want this. All of those efforts
00:18:13.409 --> 00:18:15.849
of that 18 months weren't for naught.
00:18:16.849 --> 00:18:22.189
And isn't that an interesting thing, Marianne? Because if I'd asked you at the
00:18:22.189 --> 00:18:26.809
time where the school board rejected or didn't respond and the state got bogged down,
00:18:26.949 --> 00:18:30.809
if I'd asked you in those hopeless moments, like, I just wasted 18 months or
00:18:30.809 --> 00:18:32.369
I wasted all of this time.
00:18:32.889 --> 00:18:37.489
And then came the part which we often find in growth.
00:18:38.089 --> 00:18:39.329
It's not in vain.
00:18:40.149 --> 00:18:42.909
Something positive happened. you get
00:18:42.909 --> 00:18:45.729
a little bit of momentum and that is the beauty
00:18:45.729 --> 00:18:49.449
of post-traumatic growth and what i tell my clients is look i don't know when
00:18:49.449 --> 00:18:54.349
relief comes but you're going to start having more and more moments of relief
00:18:54.349 --> 00:19:00.429
and less of this weight that you feel with a trauma or even an addiction because
00:19:00.429 --> 00:19:04.009
when you put your heart into something and you keep getting information you
00:19:04.009 --> 00:19:05.369
attend groups you get a sponsor,
00:19:05.629 --> 00:19:12.649
you have support, you begin to imperceptibly feel and think differently.
00:19:13.109 --> 00:19:16.989
Just this week, I was talking with an incredible couple of lovely people,
00:19:17.769 --> 00:19:19.409
and I had them go through an exercise.
00:19:20.129 --> 00:19:23.409
And as they went through the exercise, I said, okay, now that we're done with
00:19:23.409 --> 00:19:25.469
this part of it, where would have you been a year ago?
00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:30.029
And their scores, they said we would have been much lower in most of these categories.
00:19:30.769 --> 00:19:35.369
And that, while it may be imperceptible to those going through it,
00:19:35.689 --> 00:19:40.629
you begin to recognize, oh my gosh, but yeah, where are you going to be next year?
00:19:41.069 --> 00:19:44.129
Where are you going to be in two years? Or where are you going to be in 10 years,
00:19:44.269 --> 00:19:46.189
Marianne? Where are you today?
00:19:47.546 --> 00:19:54.266
And let me just look at that, Dr. Skinner. I know that you're here because of your experiences.
00:19:55.826 --> 00:20:01.106
We find passion, we find meaning because of the things that we've experienced.
00:20:01.366 --> 00:20:06.086
And one of the parts I think that's so important about post-traumatic growth
00:20:06.086 --> 00:20:10.406
is getting to the place where we work through the shame and where we can say,
00:20:10.546 --> 00:20:11.886
I'm going to tell my story.
00:20:12.306 --> 00:20:17.086
I'm going to share this. When I started working with some other individuals
00:20:17.086 --> 00:20:21.646
on this case, let me just clarify, I was like a very small drop in the bucket on this case.
00:20:21.646 --> 00:20:25.046
I don't want to make that sound bigger than it is, but I'm very proud to have
00:20:25.046 --> 00:20:28.526
been involved and to have spoken out, but I know that I'm a small bucket.
00:20:28.726 --> 00:20:32.706
But what was really beautiful in January when we went to D.C.,
00:20:32.706 --> 00:20:37.386
just as they were hearing this case, we met with other organizations and individuals
00:20:37.386 --> 00:20:42.706
who are equally if not more passionate than I am about protecting kids online.
00:20:42.966 --> 00:20:46.686
And each person that came or these organizations that came to this space,
00:20:46.886 --> 00:20:49.826
we participated in a couple of briefings that were there.
00:20:49.926 --> 00:20:53.106
And I can't tell you how many people said, this has impacted my life.
00:20:53.106 --> 00:20:54.266
I've struggled with porn.
00:20:54.526 --> 00:20:57.306
This has been hard for me. And they were there.
00:20:57.766 --> 00:21:01.246
They were able to talk about it and they were able to channel and say,
00:21:01.406 --> 00:21:05.466
I want to help other people. I want others to not have the pain that I've had.
00:21:05.886 --> 00:21:10.766
So there is power in finding that meaning, but also, yes, finding other people
00:21:10.766 --> 00:21:16.366
where we can talk about it and say, hold on, let's all take our collective experiences,
00:21:16.866 --> 00:21:21.166
and let's try to do something with it that can be helpful, that can be beneficial.
00:21:21.786 --> 00:21:26.806
And sometimes that is simply feeling more peace, right? It's not that I have
00:21:26.806 --> 00:21:30.946
to be this huge advocate or even a small part of this advocacy.
00:21:31.386 --> 00:21:35.886
It might simply be, I'm advocating for you as a human being and we're connecting.
00:21:36.166 --> 00:21:40.106
And that's a profound way of giving back through your adversity and through
00:21:40.106 --> 00:21:41.826
your challenges is lifting someone else up.
00:21:42.667 --> 00:21:48.307
I can tell my story and somebody can say, oh, you get it. I can give somebody a me too.
00:21:48.827 --> 00:21:53.587
And yeah, that doesn't have to be on a national or international stage or a stage at all.
00:21:53.727 --> 00:21:59.647
It can be allowing someone to feel seen and to feel felt because I get it.
00:21:59.847 --> 00:22:02.127
Because I've also had grief.
00:22:02.567 --> 00:22:05.707
I've also felt betrayed. I've also felt hurt.
00:22:06.187 --> 00:22:12.167
And we are inspired, I believe, by other people's stories. by hearing how other
00:22:12.167 --> 00:22:15.167
people have gotten through these really, really hard things.
00:22:15.167 --> 00:22:16.907
It gives us hope in humanity.
00:22:17.207 --> 00:22:22.507
And what stands out for me there is I see your strength.
00:22:23.107 --> 00:22:28.487
And that's motivational. Like you're doing it. I can do it. We can do it.
00:22:28.647 --> 00:22:31.987
And then the momentum begins to move forward because there's hope,
00:22:32.247 --> 00:22:35.767
because there is a path. Wait, you're doing this? You've been through this? You understand it?
00:22:35.947 --> 00:22:39.347
And this is how I'm seeing you? wow maybe
00:22:39.347 --> 00:22:42.507
I can get there and so there is a power in that
00:22:42.507 --> 00:22:45.687
momentum that you're describing there that
00:22:45.687 --> 00:22:51.447
growth it's hope-filled yeah and usually that path I would say for most people
00:22:51.447 --> 00:22:56.767
at least in my experience it's really been like here's a door that's opening
00:22:56.767 --> 00:23:00.667
or here's an opportunity or here's an idea and I've caught myself so many times
00:23:00.667 --> 00:23:03.667
sitting here going like do I want like I don't know.
00:23:03.887 --> 00:23:07.227
Should I do this? Do I want to go through this? There is doubt and questioning.
00:23:07.687 --> 00:23:10.767
It's a challenge to figure out which way, where do I go with this?
00:23:11.147 --> 00:23:12.527
What's the right way for me?
00:23:13.327 --> 00:23:19.707
Yeah. And we might not know. Part of the growth process is acknowledging,
00:23:19.907 --> 00:23:21.387
I don't know the answer right now.
00:23:21.507 --> 00:23:25.367
I mean, there are things that are undeniably, I don't have the answer to.
00:23:25.727 --> 00:23:32.127
But using Carol Dweck's work from Mindset, right? She talks about this growth mindset.
00:23:32.667 --> 00:23:36.487
Like, I don't know the answer today, but I guarantee you that if I'm going to
00:23:36.487 --> 00:23:38.567
come up with it, I'm going to find the answer.
00:23:38.927 --> 00:23:42.687
And I'm not going to accept no, or you can't do that as a possibility.
00:23:42.707 --> 00:23:44.327
I'm going to find a solution.
00:23:45.007 --> 00:23:48.167
And to me, that is that growth mindset that we're talking about,
00:23:48.327 --> 00:23:52.807
post-traumatic growth, that I don't, I'm not going to lay down and just.
00:23:53.659 --> 00:23:56.899
Be the victim of this circumstance. I'm going to find a solution.
00:23:57.459 --> 00:24:01.419
I'm going to get stronger. We're going to get stronger. I love it when couples
00:24:01.419 --> 00:24:02.879
take on this mindset as well.
00:24:03.139 --> 00:24:06.439
Like we're going to get better as a couple. We're committed to our healing.
00:24:06.879 --> 00:24:10.719
And to me, that's a beautiful thing. I love Carol Dweck's work,
00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:14.499
especially regarding failure, like viewing failure.
00:24:14.859 --> 00:24:17.679
And I know you and I've talked about this previously, but
00:24:17.679 --> 00:24:20.699
really looking at there really isn't failure there's just
00:24:20.699 --> 00:24:23.639
looking at forget this not work today
00:24:23.639 --> 00:24:26.979
it's about curiosity and it's about learning and
00:24:26.979 --> 00:24:31.919
when we take that into what didn't work and how didn't that work i love to have
00:24:31.919 --> 00:24:36.179
my clients go bowling and we talk about that walk of shame as you're coming
00:24:36.179 --> 00:24:39.459
back and everybody saw that gutter ball and i can have a lot of shame about
00:24:39.459 --> 00:24:44.539
that or i can go like how do i tweak my arm next time what didn't work that's shifting out of that,
00:24:45.019 --> 00:24:48.319
perfectionism and that shame to that open mindset.
00:24:48.499 --> 00:24:53.379
But there's a, hopefully our listeners and viewers know, we work with a lot of theories.
00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:59.079
Like we look at the world through these different ideas that people have said,
00:24:59.179 --> 00:25:01.059
maybe if we look at it through this way, this will make sense.
00:25:01.139 --> 00:25:04.719
And there's a theorist, I don't know their first name, but their last name is Crumble.
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:08.099
And they had a theory about work. It's a fascinating theory.
00:25:08.199 --> 00:25:10.179
It basically says, if I'm standing
00:25:10.179 --> 00:25:13.599
at this crossroads trying to figure out which way do I go? What do I do?
00:25:14.019 --> 00:25:18.539
I can go be a psychologist and I can work with clients or I can teach.
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:21.619
I can be an instructor and I just don't know which way I want to go.
00:25:22.339 --> 00:25:26.699
Krumvel's theory is basically like, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter
00:25:26.699 --> 00:25:30.419
because either direction you go, you will gain experience.
00:25:30.439 --> 00:25:32.439
You will gain knowledge. You will gain growth.
00:25:32.619 --> 00:25:37.539
And so I can go one direction and say, I'm going to go try to be a psychologist and realize I hate this.
00:25:37.699 --> 00:25:40.799
This is not what I really like to do. And so I can take that with me everything
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:45.459
that I've learned and I can apply that someplace else and so looking at it as
00:25:45.459 --> 00:25:50.999
we take our experiences and we can say what is my opportunity to grow from this
00:25:50.999 --> 00:25:54.039
what do I do with this I'm never stuck in this one place.
00:25:54.901 --> 00:26:00.481
Everything then can be a teacher and it doesn't mean it's going to be easy.
00:26:00.621 --> 00:26:03.721
In fact, some of them might be absolutely overwhelming and gut-wrenching,
00:26:04.021 --> 00:26:08.021
but I can take this experience and I can learn from it and my life can be better.
00:26:08.741 --> 00:26:13.081
That may feel overwhelming today, but you might look back in five and 10 years
00:26:13.081 --> 00:26:18.201
and say, it was that moment when I was lifting the heaviest weights and now look at my muscles.
00:26:18.501 --> 00:26:22.201
The reality is, is you build your muscles. And then that's a mindset of,
00:26:22.361 --> 00:26:25.741
my trauma muscles, they're strong, you may say.
00:26:26.621 --> 00:26:30.801
And using that metaphor, the reality is, is you're resilient,
00:26:30.801 --> 00:26:33.921
you're strong, you are doing hard things.
00:26:34.941 --> 00:26:39.201
I want to spread out that metaphor just a little bit more. So if we take that
00:26:39.201 --> 00:26:42.861
metaphor, it's like, hey, I just got a gym membership. I went to the gym and
00:26:42.861 --> 00:26:45.041
I did like two, three hours of working out.
00:26:45.161 --> 00:26:47.201
And then I come back home and I'm looking and we're going like,
00:26:47.821 --> 00:26:51.881
is the muscle there yet? But like, and I say, like, I don't,
00:26:52.041 --> 00:26:54.041
nothing's changed. I can't see anything.
00:26:54.261 --> 00:26:59.001
I believe that even post-traumatic growth, it's imperceptible.
00:26:59.181 --> 00:27:02.961
And we notice it just like when you go to the gym and you're working out or
00:27:02.961 --> 00:27:03.841
you're hiking or whatever.
00:27:04.121 --> 00:27:08.201
And then you run up the stairs and you're like, huh, that wasn't,
00:27:08.321 --> 00:27:11.041
I'm not as winded as I was a while ago.
00:27:11.641 --> 00:27:16.541
Huh, I feel a little bit better. We often notice it kind of more in hindsight.
00:27:16.801 --> 00:27:20.901
We don't usually notice it in that moment. So fun story.
00:27:21.121 --> 00:27:30.961
So 2005, I ran a marathon and our city has a 5k, but I, so the fun run was about
00:27:30.961 --> 00:27:34.441
two weeks after my marathon. And I.
00:27:35.096 --> 00:27:41.256
That 5K was the easiest run I've ever done in terms of just like, I got all this oxygen.
00:27:41.436 --> 00:27:44.956
I just ran a marathon. My body was still in the recovery process.
00:27:45.216 --> 00:27:49.696
And yet, because I'd pushed for 26.2 miles, that 5K was like,
00:27:49.836 --> 00:27:53.636
I found myself in mile two. Like, all this oxygen, right?
00:27:54.276 --> 00:27:59.776
I'll be done in a mile? What's up with this? I guess my point here is when you
00:27:59.776 --> 00:28:03.896
push yourself, you'd be surprised at what used to set you off,
00:28:03.896 --> 00:28:05.956
what used to be more difficult, what used to be hard.
00:28:06.136 --> 00:28:08.676
You're like, yeah, I can do this. I got it.
00:28:09.256 --> 00:28:12.136
Because you've been through some of the most difficult experiences,
00:28:12.136 --> 00:28:16.696
now it's like, okay, a 5k, that's it? That's all you got for me today?
00:28:17.396 --> 00:28:21.176
And the point is you start to look at things and you say, I know I can get through this.
00:28:21.836 --> 00:28:25.256
What I'm hearing you talk about is expanding our window of tolerance,
00:28:25.516 --> 00:28:29.796
which is a term or a phrase that comes from Dan Siegel, meaning that sometimes
00:28:29.796 --> 00:28:32.476
we can maybe only tolerate something that's this much.
00:28:32.656 --> 00:28:35.636
And as we stretch and grow like you did through that marathon,
00:28:35.816 --> 00:28:39.656
suddenly you had 26.2 amount of tolerance.
00:28:39.876 --> 00:28:44.636
And so like that little 5k felt like nothing because of what you'd gone through.
00:28:44.776 --> 00:28:49.936
You had grown and changed and your body had substantially changed because of that.
00:28:50.056 --> 00:28:54.636
I just want to punctuate that I'm married to somebody who's a runner. And so.
00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:58.960
Running 26.2 miles, you just don't wake up one morning and say,
00:28:59.100 --> 00:29:00.560
I'm going to run 26.2 miles.
00:29:00.840 --> 00:29:06.600
You have a lot of long runs that go into the buildup so that you can sustain
00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:08.760
and you can get through that 26.2 months.
00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:12.620
It's not a short, easy process. It takes a lot.
00:29:12.860 --> 00:29:17.400
I remember one specific Saturday, they say that you want to peak about a month
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:19.920
before and then kind of go down.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:22.600
But I'd ran, I think, about 19 miles.
00:29:23.320 --> 00:29:28.700
Of not easy terrain, but 19 miles. And I thought, and I would still have seven
00:29:28.700 --> 00:29:32.360
more after this in a month from now. And that was like, right.
00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:35.160
Cause you, even when you're going through difficult times, you know,
00:29:35.340 --> 00:29:38.700
there's more, you know, there's more, maybe it's a couple getting ready to go through a disclosure.
00:29:38.840 --> 00:29:42.120
You know, there's more, but we've done some hard things up to this point.
00:29:42.320 --> 00:29:45.380
And what we realized is we are a resilient species.
00:29:46.100 --> 00:29:50.560
We do hard things. and sometimes the growth that we're looking for,
00:29:50.760 --> 00:29:53.860
you might not see it, but when you hang in there long enough,
00:29:54.040 --> 00:29:55.340
you do, you get stronger.
00:29:55.480 --> 00:30:00.160
And that's really, I hope our listeners today can take a message that as you
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.280
go through this journey, it's not a moment.
00:30:04.120 --> 00:30:09.220
It's multiple moments stacked upon each other, one after the other, after the other.
00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:11.800
And then the chutes and ladders happens and it's like, oh man,
00:30:11.980 --> 00:30:13.780
nothing, that was a waste of time.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:19.660
No, it wasn't a waste of time. You learned maybe what didn't work.
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:27.460
But I would say there is something really powerful that does happen in our moments.
00:30:28.120 --> 00:30:31.340
And it is like a refining process.
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:37.340
It's a price that we pay to know ourselves. It's a price that we pay to know our higher power.
00:30:37.540 --> 00:30:41.980
We pay a price when we go through these refining moments, and we are changed.
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:47.960
And I have so many clients that have gone through really heartbreaking things,
00:30:47.980 --> 00:30:50.160
and they'd say, you know, Mary Ann.
00:30:51.202 --> 00:30:55.242
If I could change anything, I probably wouldn't. I've gone through this grueling
00:30:55.242 --> 00:31:00.002
heartache of divorce or loss or whatever it is.
00:31:00.502 --> 00:31:06.202
But I've also learned to value myself and respect myself and to create boundaries
00:31:06.202 --> 00:31:11.242
and to live more fully, not allowing abuse or whatever it is.
00:31:11.322 --> 00:31:17.062
And so it is in these moments where we, you know, just to summarize Viktor Frankl's
00:31:17.062 --> 00:31:18.782
story or what I remember of it.
00:31:19.222 --> 00:31:24.662
He was a concentration camp survivor, but he talks about in the hardest,
00:31:24.922 --> 00:31:29.842
darkest moment where they were sloshing through the mud and it was freezing cold.
00:31:30.302 --> 00:31:33.302
He was trying to stay in the middle of the pack so they didn't get beaten.
00:31:33.542 --> 00:31:36.922
It was a forced labor camp, and he talks about looking down,
00:31:37.102 --> 00:31:40.782
trying to find anything to use like for a shoelace to keep his shoes on.
00:31:40.782 --> 00:31:46.702
In that moment was so cold, so hungry, so oppressed in so many ways.
00:31:46.982 --> 00:31:54.202
He talked about the birth of existentialism was in this moment of harrowing misery.
00:31:54.882 --> 00:32:00.882
And he talked about, he said he cast his mind to a future place saying,
00:32:01.062 --> 00:32:05.902
if I were standing in front of an auditorium of people and it was warm,
00:32:06.142 --> 00:32:10.422
people were well-dressed and well-fed and I was standing there having to talk
00:32:10.422 --> 00:32:13.682
about what I learned in this moment, what would I tell them?
00:32:13.802 --> 00:32:18.742
It is in those moments where we really, it feels like maybe it can get worse
00:32:18.742 --> 00:32:20.242
than this. This is so hard.
00:32:20.702 --> 00:32:23.682
Where do we find the meaning in those moments to keep going?
00:32:24.242 --> 00:32:26.662
That was the power that carried him through that.
00:32:27.282 --> 00:32:31.162
And if we continue down that pathway, he talked about the depravity.
00:32:31.482 --> 00:32:35.522
And in particular, I'll never forget the part of it where he had fallen and
00:32:35.522 --> 00:32:43.102
he was on the ground. and one of the guards had his gun on his shoulder and his boot on his chest.
00:32:43.282 --> 00:32:46.402
And he's looking up and he's thinking, I'm freer than you are.
00:32:47.542 --> 00:32:52.722
And I think about how do we get to that space? I often think about this in terms
00:32:52.722 --> 00:32:55.982
of someone who's trapped in addiction, who doesn't feel free at all.
00:32:56.442 --> 00:33:02.482
The person who is overcoming addictive tendencies and that they feel freer maybe
00:33:02.482 --> 00:33:05.362
for the first time because they've committed to their growth,
00:33:05.362 --> 00:33:08.962
to their change, to reclaiming their life.
00:33:09.822 --> 00:33:14.302
And when they're in that journey and they see themselves in a new way,
00:33:14.522 --> 00:33:21.922
like I'm freer, I'm not beholden to this addiction, that kind of growth is beautiful to see.
00:33:22.102 --> 00:33:25.822
Again, I referred back to the group of men that I've been working with,
00:33:26.242 --> 00:33:29.602
just beautiful individuals in terms of the work that they're trying to put in
00:33:29.602 --> 00:33:35.782
and become better men, but I can't get this out of my mind when they say things like, I am freer.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:41.440
Than I've ever been. My life, I feel that feeling.
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:47.980
Not the weight of a guard with his boot on my chest and gun on my shoulder.
00:33:48.220 --> 00:33:51.080
It's a freedom of like, I can fly.
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.400
I haven't been able to feel this way for decades.
00:33:55.340 --> 00:34:01.300
That's the post-traumatic growth or post-addictive growth that we're actually looking for.
00:34:01.800 --> 00:34:05.240
Yeah, I think a lot of that comes from being able to see ourselves clearly.
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:12.240
And I've had a lot of thoughts as you were saying that, and now I'm struggling to pull them together.
00:34:12.500 --> 00:34:16.260
But being able to give ourselves permission.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:23.740
There is so much freedom that comes from not staying in secrecy and hiding, staying in shame.
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:29.660
That freedom comes to say, oh, here's where I'm at, and giving ourselves permission.
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:33.800
One of the phrases that comes from 12 Steps, I believe from AA,
00:34:34.060 --> 00:34:37.700
is just, you know, it's one day at a time, one step at a time, one breath at a time.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:41.560
And that's really, I think, what any growth is.
00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:47.300
Yeah. If post-traumatic growth or not, it is in this moment,
00:34:47.560 --> 00:34:48.900
how do I get through my next breath?
00:34:49.680 --> 00:34:53.580
Yes. And what happens there is we don't know that answer.
00:34:53.860 --> 00:34:57.120
That's the part where, as humans, we're conditioned. There's going to be,
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.320
if I don't know the answer, maybe there isn't one.
00:34:59.780 --> 00:35:03.600
But that's the interesting thing about life, there's always an answer.
00:35:04.080 --> 00:35:08.040
Now, I'm going to go a little bit more, maybe a little bit more difficult here for a second.
00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:14.880
Last night, I received a phone call from my mom, and her good friend and sister is passing away.
00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:20.940
And my mom is just in a tremendous amount of just sorrow, because they've been
00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:23.740
such good friends and just done so many things together.
00:35:24.943 --> 00:35:28.863
And I think about the growth of that kind of loss, where somebody that's close
00:35:28.863 --> 00:35:33.963
to you is dying, whom you love deeply, and the emotional pain and the emotional
00:35:33.963 --> 00:35:35.883
sorrow and the grieving of that process.
00:35:36.583 --> 00:35:41.003
And I just listened to my mom and just feeling the pain of this loss that she's experiencing.
00:35:41.443 --> 00:35:45.643
And me too, right? I love my aunt. Just a great, great lady.
00:35:46.103 --> 00:35:49.323
And my cousins, right, who I've been close with throughout my life.
00:35:50.123 --> 00:35:53.003
At the same time, my aunt is actually the strong one.
00:35:53.743 --> 00:36:00.103
My aunt said to my mom, it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be. It's going to be okay.
00:36:00.983 --> 00:36:05.403
I think about that experience. And like, how in the world is my aunt who's,
00:36:05.543 --> 00:36:06.943
they've given her a week.
00:36:07.603 --> 00:36:13.803
Wow. How is she the one that is, this is not as bad as I thought it was going to be.
00:36:14.143 --> 00:36:20.303
How is she the one giving and building and lifting in that final stretch of this life?
00:36:21.783 --> 00:36:25.143
That to me is who a person becomes
00:36:25.143 --> 00:36:28.223
it's going to be okay we're going
00:36:28.223 --> 00:36:31.383
to find the answers we're going to find solutions even as we transition out
00:36:31.383 --> 00:36:36.263
of this life that's people who have come to a conclusion of who they are and
00:36:36.263 --> 00:36:40.963
they're not afraid because we're all going to face that moment we're all going
00:36:40.963 --> 00:36:45.243
to be put in that moment and then we have to ask the question how have I been in this life.
00:36:46.143 --> 00:36:50.863
And I dare say that my aunt should lift her head high and with confidence say
00:36:50.863 --> 00:36:54.063
I've lived a good life. That's what I hope I can say.
00:36:55.063 --> 00:36:59.083
My heart goes out to you and your family, Dr. Skinner, and I know that I and
00:36:59.083 --> 00:37:01.783
so many of our listeners or viewers,
00:37:02.083 --> 00:37:07.443
you know, as we experience loss of loved ones, these are things that are unspeakable
00:37:07.443 --> 00:37:13.283
that we don't have the words to even be able to convey how we feel about this.
00:37:13.823 --> 00:37:21.103
And I also hear, you know, what I hear you talking about, really looking at how we face our storms.
00:37:22.043 --> 00:37:28.543
How do we face the storms? They're coming. There is not a human being that will not face adversity.
00:37:29.203 --> 00:37:33.383
Some have higher volume of adversity than others, but there is nobody who's
00:37:33.383 --> 00:37:36.383
immune. And the question is, do we get back up?
00:37:36.843 --> 00:37:43.603
Do we fight the fight? And do we do so in a way that is, dare I say, Eeyore-like?
00:37:45.083 --> 00:37:49.183
Or do we get up and we say, I'm a fighter. I'm going to figure it out.
00:37:49.303 --> 00:37:52.143
I'm going to go make changes. I'm going to educate the world.
00:37:52.303 --> 00:37:57.283
I'm going to get involved in helping make people aware of the impact of pornography
00:37:57.283 --> 00:37:58.463
like you're doing, Marianne.
00:37:58.583 --> 00:38:01.843
I'm going to reach out. I'm going to create and participate because I want to
00:38:01.843 --> 00:38:04.083
make a difference. I don't want people to go through what I went through.
00:38:04.783 --> 00:38:06.043
That's a beautiful story.
00:38:07.023 --> 00:38:10.163
I think what you're talking about is connection.
00:38:10.703 --> 00:38:16.063
We go through adversity, we go through hard things, and oftentimes we find connection,
00:38:16.063 --> 00:38:18.243
or we need to find connection with ourselves.
00:38:18.743 --> 00:38:20.743
We can either dissociate out of it.
00:38:21.576 --> 00:38:24.776
Or we can really go internally and say, what can I learn from this?
00:38:24.856 --> 00:38:27.636
What do I learn from me? What can I learn from this moment?
00:38:27.976 --> 00:38:29.816
That's part of our emotional regulation.
00:38:30.216 --> 00:38:35.136
But also, there are those moments where all we can do is turn to something higher
00:38:35.136 --> 00:38:39.196
and bigger than ourselves because the pain is so deep and so great.
00:38:39.396 --> 00:38:44.976
And in that journey, we do need connection with others.
00:38:45.476 --> 00:38:49.176
That is what we're talking about today is the human intimacy,
00:38:49.176 --> 00:38:54.016
our need, our intimate need for connection with others.
00:38:54.436 --> 00:38:58.776
And one final point on this topic, you just described it beautifully.
00:38:59.296 --> 00:39:05.076
The research on post-traumatic growth found that some kind of spiritual change
00:39:05.076 --> 00:39:06.736
occurred in people who are growing.
00:39:07.356 --> 00:39:10.236
Sometimes it's having a deeper connection with their higher power.
00:39:10.496 --> 00:39:13.636
Sometimes it's working through the anger and the frustration and the hatred.
00:39:13.896 --> 00:39:19.816
And even towards God, my frustration is I feel let down. and working through
00:39:19.816 --> 00:39:23.916
that and coming to this awareness or this conclusion or this place of like,
00:39:24.356 --> 00:39:27.596
he didn't let me down. My higher power didn't let me down.
00:39:28.136 --> 00:39:33.656
I've come deeper, deeper connection, deeper closeness with my higher power.
00:39:34.056 --> 00:39:37.656
And that is an other part of growth, is
00:39:37.656 --> 00:39:40.496
sometimes redefining that relationship with your
00:39:40.496 --> 00:39:43.136
higher power in the recovery and in the
00:39:43.136 --> 00:39:46.416
healing process yeah as we
00:39:46.416 --> 00:39:49.096
wrap up i think just in responding to what you
00:39:49.096 --> 00:39:52.996
just said i think it's important just to underscore that
00:39:52.996 --> 00:39:56.716
what we're talking about today is a process it's an
00:39:56.716 --> 00:40:02.556
evolution where we change it's a changing experience and it's not night and
00:40:02.556 --> 00:40:08.716
day different it's a step at a time a breath at a time and it's so hard to see
00:40:08.716 --> 00:40:14.316
change or see that post-traumatic growth Even in ourselves, it's often hard to see,
00:40:14.396 --> 00:40:19.876
but we're talking about a change and a growing process, which we need love and
00:40:19.876 --> 00:40:22.476
support for ourselves from a higher power,
00:40:22.716 --> 00:40:26.076
sources outside of ourselves, and with other human beings.
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:31.079
Awesome. Awesome. So appreciate this conversation, Marianne.
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:32.319
I appreciate you sharing your story.
00:40:32.879 --> 00:40:38.759
Excited for what this means, the findings today from the Supreme Court,
00:40:39.499 --> 00:40:43.699
sending a message to our country in a very profound way, right?
00:40:43.759 --> 00:40:47.899
It's time for us to take the Wild West out of the internet, have a little bit
00:40:47.899 --> 00:40:51.439
of structure to bless and protect lives of the innocent.
00:40:51.919 --> 00:40:56.759
That to me is fantastic. Your story, the arc of that story is beautiful.
00:40:57.059 --> 00:41:00.619
Thank you for sharing it. Thank you. I can't get the smile off my face,
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:01.959
as you can probably tell.
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.099
If you are not watching this on YouTube, you can go to YouTube and watch this
00:41:06.099 --> 00:41:09.299
live. I think it's a permagrin in Marianne today.
00:41:10.139 --> 00:41:14.319
That's been a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that have gone into this work.
00:41:15.099 --> 00:41:19.359
All right. Marianne, thank you for your time. To our listeners, we thank you.
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:24.119
You are listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast, where we have been focusing
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:27.299
so much on betrayal and infidelity and recovery.
00:41:27.939 --> 00:41:31.739
But also my hope is that it's helping you be better in your relationships,
00:41:32.059 --> 00:41:34.879
helping you understand that connection is what really matters the most.
00:41:35.379 --> 00:41:40.879
So my invitation is, I have often said, is love is a choice. Make it every day.
00:41:41.619 --> 00:41:44.839
Thanks to you, our listeners. We appreciate your time. May you be blessed.
00:41:45.479 --> 00:41:46.679
And Marianne, thank you so much.
00:41:46.960 --> 00:42:06.006
Music.