From Campaigns to the Boardroom: Rethinking Marketing Ops with Lauren McCormack

WEBVTT
00:00:24.570 --> 00:00:25.530
Hello, everyone.
00:00:25.530 --> 00:00:30.730
Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com, powered by all the pros.
00:00:30.730 --> 00:00:35.210
I'm your host, Michael Hartman, flying solo in this holiday season.
00:00:35.210 --> 00:00:46.650
Today I'm excited to talk with Lauren McCormack, lead strategist for the B2B Experience platform at Kaiser Permanente, and someone who sits uniquely at the intersection of marketing ops, RevOps, Paid Media, and sales.
00:00:46.650 --> 00:00:55.130
She's a multi-time Marketo champion, a speaker at Mopsapalooza, and a leader who has spent her career helping organizations earn a true seat at the revenue table.
00:00:55.130 --> 00:01:03.770
She and I are going to talk about data alignment, attribution, financial literacy, and how modern marketing teams can elevate their decision making as we head into 2026.
00:01:03.770 --> 00:01:05.609
Lauren, welcome to the show.
00:01:06.009 --> 00:01:08.250
Fabulous, Michael, thank you for having me.
00:01:08.250 --> 00:01:16.810
Thank you so much to uh the extended uh marketing ops family for having me as well.
00:01:17.129 --> 00:01:21.609
Well, I'm glad at least one of us is also has like holiday festive stuff in the background.
00:01:22.009 --> 00:01:22.490
Yes.
00:01:22.890 --> 00:01:24.009
So it's always nice.
00:01:24.009 --> 00:01:30.329
So as we were what mid-ish December 2025 as we're doing this?
00:01:30.329 --> 00:01:31.210
That's right.
00:01:31.210 --> 00:01:31.849
All right.
00:01:31.849 --> 00:01:33.689
Well, let's why don't we start with?
00:01:33.689 --> 00:01:35.049
I mean, I gave the highlights there.
00:01:35.049 --> 00:01:42.489
Like you've worked across a lot of these different areas, marketing apps, web ops sales, paid media analytics, which is unusual.
00:01:42.489 --> 00:01:52.250
So how how is like how are those different experiences, the breadth of them, shaped how you think about modern ops and uh marketing, maybe marketing and over overall?
00:01:52.650 --> 00:01:53.849
What a great question.
00:01:53.849 --> 00:01:55.849
And yeah, I'm a weird one, right?
00:01:55.849 --> 00:02:03.129
People, I think, try to pigeonhole marketers into niche specialties.
00:02:03.129 --> 00:02:14.329
And I think it's kind of a function of silos being accepted, workplace um characteristics, you know.
00:02:14.329 --> 00:02:22.090
And I tend to defy that notion, and which is sometimes wild, I think, for people to understand.
00:02:22.090 --> 00:02:30.009
But I've been an account executive, held to a commission structure, broke a couple commission structures in my early 20s.
00:02:30.009 --> 00:02:30.969
That was fine.
00:02:30.969 --> 00:02:37.210
Um and I've had, you know, a territory, and then I've uh I've been a journalist, you know, I was a writer.
00:02:37.210 --> 00:02:38.650
So interesting.
00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:57.129
Yeah, and um I transitioned into um marketing uh after sales, and that kind of helped me, you know, it was direct response, and that helped me understand how to create demand, especially, you know, with digital properties.
00:02:57.129 --> 00:03:06.969
And I've been playing with paid media experiments and web experiments and conversion optimizations uh, you know, for almost two decades now.
00:03:06.969 --> 00:03:09.050
So kind of an early adopter there.
00:03:09.050 --> 00:03:12.729
Early adopter when it comes to marketing ops.
00:03:12.729 --> 00:03:24.810
I was moved from direct response into a company that was running B2B SAS in early days for B2B SaaS in the suburbs of Chicago.
00:03:24.810 --> 00:03:33.849
And their marketing department was doing donut cart Fridays and pictures with the Easter Bunny and the annual company picnic.
00:03:33.849 --> 00:03:36.569
And I mean, I love those things, don't get me wrong.
00:03:36.569 --> 00:03:45.129
But uh it was when Maria Pergolino was at the helm uh for Marketo early days, long before the IPO.
00:03:45.129 --> 00:03:47.610
This is like 2012.
00:03:48.169 --> 00:03:48.490
Okay.
00:03:49.050 --> 00:03:53.930
And she's pitching this notion that marketing should have a seat at the revenue table.
00:03:53.930 --> 00:03:55.770
And I'm like, interesting.
00:03:55.770 --> 00:04:05.129
And so I'm in direct response and I'm doing my thing, and my husband works for this software company, and my dad is looking for a new career opportunity.
00:04:05.129 --> 00:04:17.610
He's like thinking that maybe getting away from having like uh epic um at the healthcare system like implementations and having a pager go off at 2:30 in the morning.
00:04:17.610 --> 00:04:22.090
Maybe he's just kind of ready for something new, a little bit more chill, you know?
00:04:22.090 --> 00:04:22.490
Right.
00:04:22.490 --> 00:04:29.210
And so my husband brings home these job wrecks, and there's one in there for a marketing manager, and it's completely different from all the other ones.
00:04:29.210 --> 00:04:34.330
Someone has taken the time to hand curate every word and make it exciting and dynamic.
00:04:34.330 --> 00:04:35.529
And I noticed this.
00:04:35.529 --> 00:04:39.050
I'm like, tell me again about your benefits, you know, tell me again about what it's like.
00:04:39.050 --> 00:04:40.570
Would you want to share a commute?
00:04:40.570 --> 00:04:46.250
Like Ana Lark, um, you know, none of the the wrecks matched my dad, but this one sounded pretty good for me.
00:04:46.250 --> 00:04:53.929
Uh, when I got into the interview, you know, I mean Salesforce was still new-ish and uh Marketo was real new.
00:04:53.929 --> 00:04:59.370
Like you would only see pockets of utilization in San Francisco and New York, nothing in between.
00:04:59.370 --> 00:05:01.929
And um, mainly startups.
00:05:01.929 --> 00:05:07.610
And so this company was uh really, you know, the VP at the time was really forward-thinking.
00:05:07.610 --> 00:05:10.090
And he asked me in the interview, have you ever heard of Marketo?
00:05:10.090 --> 00:05:12.730
I'm like, absolutely no, but I'm a quick learner.
00:05:12.730 --> 00:05:15.769
And you know, like that began the story.
00:05:15.769 --> 00:05:38.250
And, you know, it pivoted pretty quickly because I think to your question, having been in sales, I was like, man, what would it have been like if I had instead of an accordion folder and, you know, like an a list of contacts in my phone, which I think embarrassingly enough at the time was a Blackberry literal Rolodex?
00:05:38.250 --> 00:05:39.850
I wasn't quite Rolodex material.
00:05:39.850 --> 00:05:40.889
I was Blackberry material.
00:05:40.889 --> 00:05:45.049
So like one zip of the the paper.
00:05:45.049 --> 00:06:06.809
But um, like what would it have been like if people, instead of me just showing up places, could cultivate an interest and get um like a stage set for my conversation or having got, God forbid, book an appointment for me to show up at a given place and time and for sure find a decision maker.
00:06:06.809 --> 00:06:08.570
I'm like, this is cool, you know?
00:06:08.570 --> 00:06:16.009
And so I think instead of seeing it like this is for newsletters, I can email, this is constant contact, this is MailChimp.
00:06:16.009 --> 00:06:22.169
I think I was like super fascinated by the notion of using it as a demand engine.
00:06:22.169 --> 00:06:27.289
And like before demand gen, or heaven forbid RevOps is a term, was even a thing.
00:06:27.289 --> 00:06:29.210
Uh I just could see the synergies.
00:06:29.210 --> 00:06:37.529
And then paid media, same, you know, like of course, like that's just such a powerful lever if you can train um the platforms.
00:06:37.529 --> 00:06:41.769
Um it's it's so fascinating the ways that you know some.
00:06:42.250 --> 00:06:43.769
And you get very quick feedback, right?
00:06:43.769 --> 00:06:45.690
Like if they were working over the hours.
00:06:46.090 --> 00:06:58.809
But I think it's really interesting the way that you can um work with an organization to better define exactly what they want to photocopy, what they want more of, and what they never want to see again.
00:06:58.809 --> 00:07:10.649
And those algorithms, if you work with them really rigorously, can find you people that match very specific parameters at scale, you know?
00:07:10.649 --> 00:07:11.529
And I love that.
00:07:11.529 --> 00:07:21.850
The idea that the platforms will work while you sleep, while you're off, while you're on vacation overnight to uh grow the businesses that you're trying to support, you know?
00:07:22.169 --> 00:07:23.289
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
00:07:23.289 --> 00:07:30.730
So I I was for a hot minute in sales um at a point where I probably really wasn't ready for it.
00:07:30.730 --> 00:07:34.889
No, if it's fucking hard and it's it isn't hard, but you can write your check.
00:07:34.889 --> 00:07:35.529
I like it.
00:07:35.529 --> 00:07:40.570
And it gave me a very deep appreciation for what that role is like.
00:07:40.570 --> 00:07:53.370
And I and I say that it's often on this and other conversations where I think a lot of marketers have a have a perception and disdain for sales, and I think that's because they don't know what it really takes.
00:07:53.370 --> 00:07:58.169
And I think for me, it's always informed, especially as from an operation standpoint.
00:07:58.169 --> 00:08:02.169
Um what's really interesting to me though is your journalism background.
00:08:02.169 --> 00:08:17.289
And the reason I is curious to me, not because you have it, but so uh one of our early guests was Brandy Sanders, and she said that something about like to be good at marketing ops, you needed to uh to understand chess and uh human psychology.
00:08:17.289 --> 00:08:19.289
Yeah, to tell a story, right?
00:08:19.289 --> 00:08:28.009
It's so powerful to be a part of the yeah, and I would like to the storytelling is such like I still feel like storytelling, which is ironic that marketers do a terrible job internally in so many places.
00:08:28.250 --> 00:08:31.529
Yeah, not always, but yeah, it's not always, but a lot of them do, I think.
00:08:31.529 --> 00:08:37.129
My favorite kind of hire because they know how to get to a succinct, like journalists know how to get to a succinct lead.
00:08:37.129 --> 00:08:43.450
They understand how to build a case for something when a case is needed to persuade internally or externally.
00:08:43.450 --> 00:08:48.409
They know how to create a journey, like um, and to captivate, right?
00:08:48.730 --> 00:08:49.049
Yeah.
00:08:49.289 --> 00:08:51.690
And deadlines, so deadline-oriented ones.
00:08:51.690 --> 00:08:52.889
Oh, yeah, I can only imagine.
00:08:52.970 --> 00:08:53.049
Yeah.
00:08:53.049 --> 00:08:54.169
Almost to a fault.
00:08:54.169 --> 00:08:59.769
Um okay, so kind of in that vein, yeah.
00:08:59.769 --> 00:09:02.809
So you just recently spoke at Mops Palooza, right?
00:09:02.809 --> 00:09:05.049
When it was owning your fate as a marketer.
00:09:05.049 --> 00:09:06.329
I wish I had been there.
00:09:06.329 --> 00:09:08.809
So when you say that, what like what do you mean?
00:09:08.809 --> 00:09:10.409
And why do you think that's important?
00:09:10.409 --> 00:09:13.289
Is it part of the storytelling bit or is it something else?
00:09:13.769 --> 00:09:19.370
I love that that was the the soundbite that came away from the session.
00:09:19.370 --> 00:09:24.809
Uh, I think it was officially around building uh a demand gen engine.
00:09:24.809 --> 00:09:29.529
But when I think about it as owning your fate as a marketer, you're the driver in that car, right?
00:09:29.529 --> 00:09:47.529
So I think uh more now than ever, after all of the waves of restructuring and layoffs and everything that we've seen, to be able to confidently lean into your capability and your appetite for contributing revenue.
00:09:47.529 --> 00:09:50.329
That's what's gonna determine your upward mobility.
00:09:50.329 --> 00:10:05.289
That's gonna what's it if you can't um to steal my friend Jess's phrase, um, convert geek speak into the C-suite, yeah, you're not gonna be able to have upward mobility for yourself or for your team.
00:10:05.289 --> 00:10:22.409
And I think that's the part, you know, for people that are reticent to be like, I'm gonna commit beyond my goals for clicks and opens to a number of pipelines that I'm going to contribute and close and win, or heaven forbid, regression analysis and forecasting around what you're gonna get for what you spend.
00:10:22.409 --> 00:10:24.730
Yes, where I love to be.
00:10:24.730 --> 00:10:31.929
Um, if you're not willing to do that for yourself, okay, but if you're leading a team of people, that's your responsibility.
00:10:31.929 --> 00:10:33.850
It's almost like running the finances for your home.
00:10:33.850 --> 00:10:37.929
You have to be accountable to those numbers because you're taking care of people.
00:10:37.929 --> 00:10:43.209
Though those people are are trusting you with their their families and their their futures.
00:10:43.209 --> 00:10:49.129
So I think owning your fate is an interesting way to perceive leaning into that seat at the revenue table.
00:10:49.129 --> 00:10:51.129
I guess if we go full full circle there.
00:10:51.449 --> 00:10:51.769
Yeah.
00:10:51.769 --> 00:10:52.250
Yeah.
00:10:52.250 --> 00:10:57.769
I think it's um it's interesting that that point and just is great about that translating.
00:10:57.769 --> 00:11:06.730
Um the and I thought I was decent at it until we did an exercise at summer camp a few years ago, and I was like, oh wow.
00:11:06.730 --> 00:11:12.490
Like um, it's very interesting to get that perspective because we had somebody else in the room, a CMO.
00:11:12.490 --> 00:11:16.730
And how she thought was very intriguing and helpful to hear.
00:11:16.730 --> 00:11:30.649
It's the one I think addition I might make to yours, like your thought of this, is that um there's a seat at the revenue table, but also there's this um revenue at all costs is not gonna be sustained either, right?
00:11:30.649 --> 00:11:36.409
So there's also like when I and you kind of hinted at it, like if I spend a dollar, what am I gonna get out of it?
00:11:36.409 --> 00:11:36.970
That's right.
00:11:36.970 --> 00:11:42.490
If it's easy to recoil for that question because it's so hard, like it's it's hard to answer.
00:11:42.569 --> 00:12:09.209
Um it's loaded, but it's also um I I think the more that you aren't avoidant with it, the more that you embrace the fact that these are the fundamental questions that the CMO is going to get from the board, yeah, the more that you can manage upward and downward, or better yet, carve out a path toward budget and headcount and sanity and safety.
00:12:09.209 --> 00:12:17.289
And um uh my new uh uh department tends to call it reasonability, right?
00:12:17.289 --> 00:12:17.610
Yeah.
00:12:17.610 --> 00:12:19.610
Um managing expectations too.
00:12:19.610 --> 00:12:36.250
So if the board is asking something wild and they've just taken a dart and thrown it at a dartboard to say 15% growth in 2026, work that math backward once you get comfortable being in those spreadsheets to understand or those forecasts, whatever your tool is, or your power BI.
00:12:36.250 --> 00:12:46.889
You know, but whatever your your methodology is, working those numbers forward gives you the power to work them backwards so you can say, okay, 15% growth.
00:12:46.889 --> 00:12:48.089
Um, interesting.
00:12:48.089 --> 00:12:57.449
Here's our um conversion optimization, uh, best case scenario for sales, and this is what sales needs to be fed to hit that number.
00:12:57.449 --> 00:13:05.610
And this is what it looks like for my budget for 2026 for us to, you know, confidently hit this target with a margin of error.
00:13:05.610 --> 00:13:21.610
And once they see that you can be accountable, either they adjust the this, like maybe they adjust the expectations or make them more reasonable, or you get the funding and the investment and the infrastructure that you need to make your team successful.
00:13:21.610 --> 00:13:28.970
Either way, you you you can't avoid uh the inevitability of those expectations.
00:13:29.289 --> 00:13:29.610
Yeah.
00:13:29.610 --> 00:13:35.529
Well, I think the the point I've heard I to put it bluntly is that they don't care how busy you are, because that'll be the complaint.
00:13:35.529 --> 00:13:38.649
Like you're asking me to do all this work, and but you're not giving me the heck of work.
00:13:38.649 --> 00:13:44.649
You've got if you can't speak to the financial outcomes, you don't get the money.
00:13:44.649 --> 00:13:45.289
Right.
00:13:45.289 --> 00:13:46.089
Yeah.
00:13:46.089 --> 00:13:49.610
Like it doesn't even necessarily like I think to your point, like, is it reasonable?
00:13:49.610 --> 00:13:54.409
You show that you're understanding and thinking about it maybe as much as you need to do.
00:13:54.409 --> 00:13:56.409
I mean, that's not everything.
00:13:56.569 --> 00:13:56.730
Right.
00:13:57.049 --> 00:14:01.370
Yeah, and I mean like the the status quo is not necessarily what I'm advocating for there either.
00:14:01.370 --> 00:14:26.329
So if you look and do your regression analysis around what your um deal sizes and the the close-win ratio is for your sales team and you work that backwards uh through your top performing channels, and you think about you know what the cost per opportunity looks like in those top performing channels and what the lead volume needs to look like to give the at bats to the team to hit the home runs, they need to hit those numbers.
00:14:26.329 --> 00:14:26.809
Right.
00:14:26.809 --> 00:14:29.209
Um, sometimes there's uh waste.
00:14:29.209 --> 00:14:33.689
You know, sometimes you have to optimize your your return on ad spend.
00:14:33.689 --> 00:14:39.370
Sometimes you have to um think about um uh renewals and churn.
00:14:39.370 --> 00:14:40.490
Like there are more factors.
00:14:40.490 --> 00:14:55.129
It's not as linear as it sounds, but just showing that you've done the math and that you're continuing to analyze is owning your fate, I think, um professionally and being responsible with the fates that are around you, you know.
00:14:55.610 --> 00:14:56.009
Yeah.
00:14:56.009 --> 00:14:58.089
So I totally agree on that.
00:14:58.089 --> 00:15:06.889
The one of the things you you taught you mentioned a little bit ago was um something about silos and in I think in marketing in general.
00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:07.769
And yes.
00:15:07.769 --> 00:15:12.730
Yeah, so so why do you think that's an issue, right?
00:15:12.730 --> 00:15:15.449
Because it's pretty much the way it is everywhere.
00:15:15.449 --> 00:15:20.649
And like what what are the downsides of that and how do you address it?
00:15:21.449 --> 00:15:27.370
We're all in the same boat and we can make choices around if we're all rowing in the same direction.
00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:37.289
And it impacts um if a heavily siloed organization is more obvious to people on the outside than it ever is to the people on the inside.
00:15:37.370 --> 00:15:37.610
Uh-huh.
00:15:37.769 --> 00:15:39.049
And that is a liability.
00:15:39.370 --> 00:15:40.730
That is really interesting.
00:15:40.970 --> 00:15:43.049
Yeah, it's that solution selling.
00:15:43.049 --> 00:15:48.009
Um I was fortunate enough to go through that program as an AE and as a marketer.
00:15:48.009 --> 00:15:49.449
Yeah, oh, interesting.
00:15:49.449 --> 00:15:49.769
Yeah.
00:15:49.769 --> 00:15:50.730
It's really good.
00:15:50.730 --> 00:16:00.329
And it's, I mean, it's a little, you know, time tested, but it's like the concept of Nihido, nothing important happens in the office.
00:16:00.329 --> 00:16:09.850
And that's not work from home and that's not PTO, but that's like the decisions that influence the growth of your team happen when you're not around.
00:16:09.850 --> 00:16:14.250
That RFP process is going down when you're not in the room.
00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:22.730
And it's like, what are people, what's the impression that you're making on people that that you can quantify and qualify?
00:16:22.730 --> 00:16:37.850
Like, um when when when it's when the important moments matter, have you accidentally sent two emails and uh used the wrong name of the decision maker in one of them in sales loft?
00:16:37.850 --> 00:16:47.129
You know, as have you forgotten to respect the prospect and customer experience to the point where it's gonna damage your deal?
00:16:47.129 --> 00:17:00.009
And I think the only way if we're omnichannel, if we're thinking about personalization at scale, if we're thinking about what the future of good marketing looks like, how on earth are you gonna stay siloed?
00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:04.009
How are you gonna say, I only focus on webinars?
00:17:04.009 --> 00:17:10.009
Like that operation in a vacuum, the space for that is gone, right?
00:17:10.009 --> 00:17:18.490
And um, you know, I think sales and marketing alignment, um I still see massive amounts of dysfunction there.
00:17:18.490 --> 00:17:22.809
And it's like um some of the fundamentals are missed.
00:17:22.809 --> 00:17:57.450
And I can guarantee you, if you're not willing to um have at least a couple people that are crazy enough like me to extend across aisles and have conversations that maybe aren't mandatory, your good your competitor does, your competitor is, your competitor will, that agility and and not like just like agile project management, but like that nimbleness to have a marketer that's actually seen what it looks like when one of their crappy leads goes sideways or one of their good leads converts them to a deal.
00:17:57.450 --> 00:18:19.769
Like if you operate in a world where you're just chucking stuff over the fence and then just hoping that it's valuable, it shows in your bottom line, your top line, it shows in your churn, and it shows most disturbingly in those conversations about whether or not your prospects and customers want to choose you or somebody else that's doing it better.
00:18:20.089 --> 00:18:24.410
Or or internally, what what kind of reputation you and your team have, right?
00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:25.769
Oh, that's interesting.
00:18:25.769 --> 00:18:26.329
Yeah.
00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:29.450
I know your personal brand, I never thought about that, but that's interesting.
00:18:29.529 --> 00:18:30.250
Yeah, you're right.
00:18:30.250 --> 00:18:30.490
Yeah.
00:18:30.490 --> 00:18:38.410
I mean, I I do coaching with people in particular who are I I love coaching people who are f moving into their first leadership role.
00:18:38.410 --> 00:18:47.289
And I tell one of the things I tell them all the time is like one of the things you're gonna be surprised about is how much talk there is about everybody that you've never heard about before.
00:18:47.289 --> 00:18:50.329
Because it's happening, guarantee must happen all the time, right?
00:18:50.569 --> 00:18:51.210
Yes.
00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:54.009
And I think that's and I think that's smart.
00:18:54.009 --> 00:18:58.730
And it's it's really about those people that say good things about you in rooms where you're not.
00:18:58.730 --> 00:19:06.250
Like that's been my mantra lately is like find the people that when you're not around, sing your praises.
00:19:06.250 --> 00:19:08.410
And that's for your company, right?
00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:12.649
Those evangelists for your brand, that's for your personal career.
00:19:12.649 --> 00:19:15.369
And that's even just at the family and friend level.
00:19:15.369 --> 00:19:16.730
Like yeah, sure.
00:19:16.730 --> 00:19:17.289
Yeah.
00:19:17.289 --> 00:19:22.410
But definitely interesting that you coach around that kind of reputation management.
00:19:22.809 --> 00:19:37.529
Well, I not only that, but I think I think one of the things that like new leaders, I think, are the no the reason why I like coaching is because when I first stepped into leadership role, no one told me all these uh you know new expectations that were unwritten.
00:19:37.529 --> 00:19:38.490
Yeah.
00:19:38.490 --> 00:19:40.490
Um the school counselor.
00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:42.490
Yeah, like the referee.
00:19:42.490 --> 00:19:42.889
Yeah.
00:19:42.889 --> 00:19:50.809
I mean, I heard somebody talk about your job, like your job as a leader when you were a I think it was a Simon Sinek thing.
00:19:50.809 --> 00:19:55.049
Uh when you were an individual contributor, your job was to do your job very well, right?
00:19:55.049 --> 00:20:00.170
And now your job is to manage the people who do the job you used to do, right?
00:20:00.170 --> 00:20:05.289
And it that there's just this letting go part that has to happen, which is really hard for it was hard for me.
00:20:05.289 --> 00:20:10.809
And so I like helping people get not go through all the same pain that I did.
00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:11.849
That's fascinating.
00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:19.849
That would be a cool way to spend your like time, like helping people, because they're gonna help so many other people in return, and it just kind of exponentially multiplies.
00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:20.410
Yeah.
00:20:20.410 --> 00:20:23.129
I mean, I think I'm a big believer that like people.
00:20:23.129 --> 00:20:27.129
People don't leave companies, they leave managers.
00:20:27.609 --> 00:20:32.649
I think that's that's an interesting and and and uh wise take.
00:20:32.649 --> 00:20:42.889
I remember um when I in one of my previous roles where I was a VP and I had a lot of people um, you know, that I was uh trying to help and cultivate.
00:20:42.889 --> 00:20:50.649
Like my philosophy is just to to um enable people to be their most um successful selves, right?
00:20:50.649 --> 00:20:53.129
Not necessarily to manage them, but to empower them.
00:20:53.129 --> 00:21:00.009
And I freaked one lady out pretty bad because I told her I trusted her judgment.
00:21:00.009 --> 00:21:17.690
And she had been used to being absolutely henpecked and micromanaged to the point where she second-guessed like whether or not three sentences in a reply were going to align with expectations.
00:21:17.690 --> 00:21:29.289
And I think when I first told her that, she thought I was dismissing her, but I was absolutely trying to help her find her light and to find her confidence.
00:21:29.289 --> 00:21:34.009
And after I left that role, she sent me a card and it's like right here on my desk.
00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:41.769
I keep it to this day, that just absolutely made me cry because she was so grateful for that kind of energy and that management style.
00:21:41.769 --> 00:21:43.369
And it was helpful to her.
00:21:43.450 --> 00:21:58.170
So I hope you have a stack of cards like this, and I'm sure you I wish I'd I I I've I've definitely had maybe not I don't think I've whatever, maybe it's a generational thing, but I don't think I have cards, but I definitely have messages that resonate like that.
00:21:58.170 --> 00:22:00.649
Um I I'm I'm with you.
00:22:00.649 --> 00:22:09.369
I I think it's funny that you said I trust you because I I this is another thing I tell people is like you need to like if you believe that, you should say it.
00:22:09.369 --> 00:22:10.170
Say those words.
00:22:10.329 --> 00:22:11.849
Yeah, they need to hear it sometimes, right?
00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:15.529
Because like it doesn't yeah, I mean, don't assume they just know.
00:22:15.529 --> 00:22:21.529
Anyway, like I could do a whole maybe I need to do another podcast about that.
00:22:21.529 --> 00:22:22.170
I don't know.
00:22:22.170 --> 00:22:22.649
We'll see.
00:22:22.889 --> 00:22:23.769
I would tune in.
00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:25.369
I would I would share that content.
00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:26.329
You could be a guest.
00:22:26.329 --> 00:22:27.849
We could refine that.
00:22:27.849 --> 00:22:28.410
How about that?
00:22:28.410 --> 00:22:29.049
I love it.
00:22:29.049 --> 00:22:32.569
Um so okay.
00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:46.730
Speaking of telling stories and change so it feels like every there's these cycles where it can becomes a hot topic and it goes away, it comes back, but it never goes away completely is attribution.
00:22:46.730 --> 00:22:52.970
And I think the phrase you use when we talked before is is a waste of calories when it becomes a blame game.
00:22:53.289 --> 00:22:53.690
That's right.
00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:56.170
If you're arm wrestling over credit, yeah, absolutely.
00:22:56.170 --> 00:22:57.129
It's a bad thought.
00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:01.609
What I guess, is there a right way to think about attribution?
00:23:01.609 --> 00:23:05.049
If so, what is it and like what's the level you should get to?
00:23:05.369 --> 00:23:07.129
And yeah, great question.
00:23:07.289 --> 00:23:08.569
How age-old question.
00:23:08.569 --> 00:23:12.089
Like I got a question the other day, like which which attribution model do you like?
00:23:12.089 --> 00:23:15.289
I was like, I don't think it really matters.
00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:17.690
But just pick one, stick with it.
00:23:18.089 --> 00:23:19.129
Consistency is key.
00:23:19.129 --> 00:23:32.889
There, I mean, there's something beautiful about having an entire data science team that's able to implement, wield, and derive wisdom and business intelligence from multiple, like a U-shaped, a W-shaped, a time decay.
00:23:32.889 --> 00:23:44.889
Like if they can get nerdy with it and they can make it tell a valuable geek speak for the C-suite story that actually informs better business procedure, good on you.
00:23:44.889 --> 00:23:58.809
You know, I mean, but I would tell you that out of the organizations I've seen over the years in consulting, from startups to the enterprise, especially the enterprise, um nobody really is living that dream.
00:23:58.809 --> 00:24:04.730
And I think a lot of people will buy software to solve this problem.
00:24:04.730 --> 00:24:06.970
It is an inherently human problem.
00:24:06.970 --> 00:24:14.730
It is um software will help be a means to an end for measurement, but you define the accounting structure.
00:24:14.730 --> 00:24:17.769
You define the logic, the rules, the reason.
00:24:17.769 --> 00:24:36.009
And if you are not in a position where you've desiloed sales and marketing and they're all rowing in the same direction in the same boat, it's an arm wrestle for who took um, you know, uh somebody's nephew's uncle out uh after soccer practice for a coffee one time.
00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:37.769
And it's just a bad look, you know.
00:24:37.769 --> 00:24:51.450
But I think influence and attribution and sourcing and conversion optimization are contingent on you not getting overly cerebral and starting somewhere, right?
00:24:51.450 --> 00:25:05.369
So if you can't accurately put into place standardization around UTM source, this is like a fundamental level one exercise.
00:25:05.369 --> 00:25:29.450
And you can't look by channel and say, my top converting channel for the month of December 2025 is, and my cost per you know, um, qualified lead, my qu cost per sales accepted opportunity, my cost per opportunity per channel is not um, if you don't have that at your fingertips in near real time, you need to work toward that.
00:25:29.450 --> 00:25:54.250
But if you're down to the point where sales is cold calling old lists from your database that you're sending a newsletter to, and there's a uh an argument that escalates to senior leadership about whether or not to give the cold call or the newsletter the credit for the whole deal, you're thinking about things wrong.
00:25:54.250 --> 00:26:06.649
It should be a cerebral question around allocation of resources and improvement of process, not stars, gold stars on a chart for favor in the moment.
00:26:07.369 --> 00:26:07.609
Yeah.
00:26:07.609 --> 00:26:14.649
I mean, my so it's interesting because my general response to attribution is I don't have a problem with attribution itself.
00:26:14.649 --> 00:26:28.009
Like I'm with you, like it's a cerebral exercise for the way I shorthand it is making like it's for marketing to understand what's working well for a particular audience, a particular channel, and making bets based on that their form.
00:26:28.009 --> 00:26:33.529
I don't think it's great for um telling the financial benefit story.
00:26:33.529 --> 00:26:37.849
My preference would be you use the word contribution, right?
00:26:37.930 --> 00:26:46.170
So influence influence and attribution, I think, are two different concepts, and you can have influence on a deal without having direct sourcing attribution be the goal.
00:26:46.889 --> 00:26:51.609
So okay, so good good distinction here because I would when I'm thinking attribution, I'm thinking influence.
00:26:51.609 --> 00:27:05.529
So that's so um the but when I think of contribution is somewhere along the way, we've got an agreement with sales, marketing, maybe support if you've got renewal retention kind of stuff.
00:27:05.529 --> 00:27:12.809
Say, like we are going to just agree this is how we're going to measure where something came from by blinding.
00:27:12.809 --> 00:27:22.170
And we are gonna accept the fact that in some cases marketing's gonna get credit for something that probably could have been sales, or sales is gonna get credit for something for marketing, so on, right?
00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:23.690
But we're okay with that, right?
00:27:23.690 --> 00:27:27.129
We know like there's a margin of error, but it's not what we care about.
00:27:27.129 --> 00:27:28.170
We care about the overall.
00:27:28.170 --> 00:27:30.410
Like, are we as an organization reaching the goal?
00:27:30.410 --> 00:27:33.849
I would rather talk about that than influence.
00:27:34.089 --> 00:27:35.769
It's a team sport in a broader group.
00:27:35.769 --> 00:27:36.089
Yeah.
00:27:36.089 --> 00:27:54.089
It's a team sport, but I think when you do get um attribution and influence ironed out, and I mean you nailed it when you said that you have to get agreements around how you're going to define your accounting structures, essentially, like how you're going to count the beans for who gets what when.
00:27:54.089 --> 00:27:58.569
That is the piece that that software doesn't do for you.
00:27:58.569 --> 00:28:16.569
And I think that's where so many companies fall down, is they um that because that to your point, that requires somebody that's cross-functional, that sits across multiple silos, or a tiger team with a leader that can decouple the silos to make those kinds of business agreements.
00:28:16.569 --> 00:28:27.930
And it usually needs to be a leader in some capacity, or someone with the advocacy of a leader that has influence to make operational change management happen and stick.
00:28:27.930 --> 00:28:48.569
It's not going to be um a solo sales uh forced admin or a marketing ops manager that um alone can change a corporate culture to think about um these topics, uh, but they can start the conversation.
00:28:48.569 --> 00:28:57.690
And I think that's part of what I was talking about too in at MOPSO is owning your destiny by, you know, um starting the conversation.
00:28:57.690 --> 00:29:01.609
You don't necessarily have to be the CMO to get the ball rolling.
00:29:01.609 --> 00:29:05.930
You just have to pitch it well to the CMO and have their advocacy, you know?
00:29:06.250 --> 00:29:06.490
Yeah.
00:29:06.490 --> 00:29:16.889
I mean, I think the reason I talk about the agreement so much and that and why I focus on the fact that inherently there's going to be things that are gonna be quite be wrong.
00:29:16.889 --> 00:29:17.210
Yeah.
00:29:17.210 --> 00:29:21.129
I think a lot of people think of this in terms of like you mentioned accounting, right?
00:29:21.129 --> 00:29:33.049
Accounting, there's very common rules and practices and controls so that if you're looking at financial statements from across industries, across businesses, right, they're more or less the same.
00:29:33.049 --> 00:29:34.329
I know there's nuance.
00:29:34.649 --> 00:29:36.089
They get audited, we don't.
00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:37.049
Right.
00:29:37.049 --> 00:29:57.210
And I and I think what what gets lost here with this whole idea of being quote data driven is that uh there's this sort of built-in assumption that sales of marketing data, especially in complex B2B organizations, has the same level of commonality in terms of definitions, controls, yeah, all that stuff, that it's just not there.
00:29:57.210 --> 00:29:58.009
And that's adequate.
00:29:58.009 --> 00:30:00.089
So it starts with this false assumption.
00:30:00.089 --> 00:30:10.809
So recognizing that makes me go, that's why, like, if we just all agree it's not gonna be accounting level quality and completeness.
00:30:11.450 --> 00:30:17.049
If you can't get accounts, uh like uh contacts associated with opportunities, how in the heck have you ever been?
00:30:17.049 --> 00:30:17.849
Right.
00:30:17.849 --> 00:30:18.490
You know what I mean?
00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:38.089
And like, but that's the part where everybody has to agree on the uh the motive of business intelligence, the benefit of business intelligence, the fact that um we can double down on successes and put more money in the the pockets of people that are commission based.
00:30:38.089 --> 00:30:40.649
Yeah, that that's how you get the buy-in, right?
00:30:40.649 --> 00:30:46.170
Maybe that goes back to my time in sales is like understanding what is compelling to us.
00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:47.930
Yes, you know, yep.
00:30:48.089 --> 00:31:01.769
Yeah, no, I I remember I remember having a conversation with a like a I guess it was a sales enablement who had been in the sales team, and I was getting frustrated with the that team not really engaging with some stuff as a marketing and not you know moving things.
00:31:01.769 --> 00:31:05.289
And I and I randomly asked the question, like, how are they paid?
00:31:05.289 --> 00:31:08.730
Yeah, I assumed they were I assumed they were commission based.
00:31:08.730 --> 00:31:10.329
Well, it turns out they were, right?
00:31:10.329 --> 00:31:13.769
They were they were you know base plus bonus, right?
00:31:13.769 --> 00:31:15.930
But it wasn't commission bonus.
00:31:15.930 --> 00:31:22.649
And I was like, oh, now I I need to change my approach to getting them to do things.
00:31:22.970 --> 00:31:23.450
100%.
00:31:23.450 --> 00:31:25.849
That's how you would behave too if you were on the other side of the fence.
00:31:25.849 --> 00:31:27.129
Maybe you just don't know it yet.
00:31:27.450 --> 00:31:36.089
No, it's like it's uh it the the mentality I I this is why I recommend to marketers all the time.
00:31:36.089 --> 00:31:44.730
If you don't know what it's like to sit in that sales seat, um go find someone who will they will probably let you sit in on a call or two.
00:31:45.049 --> 00:31:45.930
Do it right along.
00:31:45.930 --> 00:31:47.049
Yeah, watch a recording.
00:31:47.049 --> 00:31:48.889
Gong is amazing for that kind of stuff.
00:31:48.889 --> 00:31:53.289
You know, we've got technology where you don't even have to be the fly on the wall to be the fly on the wall.
00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:53.769
Yeah.
00:31:53.769 --> 00:32:05.930
I mean, I think I think there would be so much valuable to so many marketers to listen to you, like, especially the good salespeople who you get frustrated with who aren't using your on-brand templates, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:32:05.930 --> 00:32:11.450
Um, and go like, what is the word, like what words are they using that are the rojo?
00:32:11.450 --> 00:32:12.569
Yeah.
00:32:12.809 --> 00:32:13.609
That's stuff.
00:32:13.609 --> 00:32:14.970
That's how I built a career.
00:32:14.970 --> 00:32:37.609
It was like um being actively curious about, and that was part of what solution selling, I think, put forward too, was the whole notion of like win-loss interviews and like fine, and that led me to um interviewing innovative poster children of sorts for the company I was at that um I used as fodder for like omni-channel campaigns.
00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:44.089
And, you know, when I left that company, the EVP of Enterprise Sales got kind of misty.
00:32:44.089 --> 00:32:48.250
Jim didn't, Jim wasn't a sentimental fella, but he was like, we're gonna miss you.
00:32:48.250 --> 00:33:05.129
But it was the storytelling of the customers that have the magic mojo and the salespeople that knew what to say, when to say it, and how to work the art of persuasion around the features and benefits that were distinctively unique to the company.
00:33:05.129 --> 00:33:10.730
That's if marketing isn't tapping into that magic, what what are we up to?
00:33:10.730 --> 00:33:11.129
Right?
00:33:11.129 --> 00:33:13.369
What what what story are we telling?
00:33:14.170 --> 00:33:20.970
What I learned in my short period of sales is like the very best salespeople are not the caricature that a lot of us are here.
00:33:20.970 --> 00:33:23.849
Because the best one very glamorous kind of folks.
00:33:23.849 --> 00:33:29.529
Well, they all can they are all comfortable speaking, but what they're when they speak, the best ones ask really good questions.
00:33:29.529 --> 00:33:30.170
That's right.
00:33:30.170 --> 00:33:30.730
They listen.
00:33:30.730 --> 00:33:34.410
And they listen, which is not what people think of.
00:33:34.410 --> 00:33:38.970
Um that's what there's way more bad salespeople who don't do that.
00:33:39.289 --> 00:33:40.250
That's 100% true.
00:33:40.250 --> 00:33:52.809
And I think I would add to that, and I think the way that I was able to to wield um you know um conversations successfully when I was on that side of the fence is they keep their promises.
00:33:53.210 --> 00:33:53.769
Yes.
00:33:54.089 --> 00:34:01.450
You know what you don't promise something if you can't keep the promise, and if you promise it, you keep it, no matter you know, hell or high water.
00:34:01.849 --> 00:34:02.329
Yeah.
00:34:03.129 --> 00:34:06.889
And that that level of rapport, I think, is huge, you know?
00:34:07.289 --> 00:34:07.849
Yeah.
00:34:07.849 --> 00:34:13.769
Well, the other thing I noticed with the best salespeople is they they're financially illiterate too, right?
00:34:13.769 --> 00:34:16.570
Especially on big purchase things.
00:34:16.570 --> 00:34:32.650
Um how so one of the things I harp on a lot is that I think there's a lot of marketers, and we touch kind of touched on this, like um what how you you say I think you said you would emphasize financial literacy, and I agree.
00:34:32.650 --> 00:34:42.730
Like, what did what's your like what's your take on like why that would be so important that we maybe haven't already covered for both marketing and marketing opposite teams?
00:34:44.170 --> 00:34:48.090
Um why I would advocate that they have a modicum of financial literacy.
00:34:48.250 --> 00:34:48.490
Yeah.
00:34:48.970 --> 00:34:51.130
Usually they're trusted with budgets.
00:34:53.450 --> 00:34:53.850
Yeah.
00:34:54.650 --> 00:34:55.130
Yeah.
00:34:55.130 --> 00:35:24.010
And so I think it's certainly important at some point, even it so I've seen I've seen organizations that have services or products or um, you know, uh offerings that succeed despite themselves, despite a whole lot of internal procedural dysfunction and dissonance and misalignment and random acts of marketing.
00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:34.490
I've seen that show and you can skate by maybe for decades if you have a really good product or a really exceptional service.
00:35:34.490 --> 00:35:46.010
Eventually somebody sees you succeeding as a company and says, I have an idea on how to do this better, how to do this differently, how to eat their lunch.
00:35:46.010 --> 00:35:54.570
And if you tolerate a lack of literacy in marketing for a while, you might get away with it.
00:35:54.570 --> 00:36:03.370
And it might be like, Yeah, I don't need, there's no reason for me to own these conversations or to understand my contribution to the company.
00:36:03.370 --> 00:36:10.570
Eventually, Rome falls, and someone will challenge your comfort.
00:36:10.570 --> 00:36:15.530
And and they will probably um put you back on your heels if you don't have the answer.
00:36:15.530 --> 00:36:21.370
But someone will eventually come calling for, hey, that money I gave you, how did it do?
00:36:21.370 --> 00:36:22.490
What did we get for it?
00:36:22.490 --> 00:36:26.010
Maybe not now, maybe five years from now, maybe five months from now.
00:36:26.010 --> 00:36:48.250
But I've never seen an organization succeeding despite itself where incremental revenue or profit margins, or especially in the wild inflation environments we're living in today, where somebody didn't want to know eventually what the return on the investment was for whatever you're trusted with.
00:36:48.250 --> 00:37:09.290
Maybe you have to defend maybe a platform investment needs defense, maybe your headcount needs defense, maybe your personal like budget allocations, uh, maybe that's not in your in your a remit for your role right now, but eventually if you'd like to have upward mobility, those are the kinds of things that'll differentiate you.
00:37:09.610 --> 00:37:14.410
Yeah, I'm I and I think the the other piece is there's a little bit of discipline that needs to go with it.
00:37:14.410 --> 00:37:23.850
I think there's I think marketers are often viewed from a as a like the perception is that they're sort of free spending, right?
00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:24.970
Yeah, cost center.
00:37:24.970 --> 00:37:26.650
You have to shift to a profit center.
00:37:26.890 --> 00:37:27.130
Yeah.
00:37:27.130 --> 00:37:36.330
Well, but even if it's not a profit center, you can't just um you can't just spend money recklessly.
00:37:36.330 --> 00:37:37.290
Some can.
00:37:37.290 --> 00:37:38.170
You'd be amazed.
00:37:38.170 --> 00:37:39.769
No, I know, I know some can.
00:37:39.769 --> 00:37:41.050
Not forever, though, I guess.
00:37:41.050 --> 00:37:42.650
No, no, no, not forever.
00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:43.850
I think you I agree with you.
00:37:43.850 --> 00:37:47.450
At some point they're gonna there's gonna be a a time of reckoning.
00:37:47.769 --> 00:37:48.010
Yeah.
00:37:48.010 --> 00:37:50.650
And it and I mean it'll look differ different in every org.
00:37:50.650 --> 00:38:03.370
I mean, it might just be like I've seen I've seen wonderfully um well-intended marketers, and it looks different everywhere when that that day comes when there are questions about the spreadsheet.
00:38:03.370 --> 00:38:08.250
Maybe, you know, uh a venture capital firm comes in and runs an audit.
00:38:08.250 --> 00:38:11.930
Maybe there's an acquisition because y'all are so successful despite everything.
00:38:11.930 --> 00:38:15.290
But when the MA happens, questions, right?
00:38:15.370 --> 00:38:15.610
Yeah.
00:38:15.769 --> 00:38:20.250
Or maybe it's a leadership change, maybe it's a new board member.
00:38:20.250 --> 00:38:33.530
Um I don't gone are the days that I think being at least somewhat articulate around the PLs, gone are the days that that was optional, I think, for marketing.
00:38:33.850 --> 00:38:36.170
Yeah, I I think that's a good thing.
00:38:36.170 --> 00:38:36.730
Surely.
00:38:36.730 --> 00:38:37.130
Yeah.
00:38:37.130 --> 00:38:37.930
Um probably.
00:38:37.930 --> 00:38:45.530
So all right, while we like what's maybe wrap up here, like it we're approaching the end of 2025 as we're doing this.
00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:54.090
What are some of the trends you're seeing that are gonna shape ops marketing, DevOps, whatever in the next year, 2026?
00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:55.210
Goodness.
00:38:55.210 --> 00:39:02.410
Well, I think um it's interesting because I know all of my peers instantly are like, bam, AI.
00:39:02.410 --> 00:39:06.890
And for me, I think what I'm seeing looks a little different.
00:39:06.890 --> 00:39:30.730
And it's um it's around the notion that during um the early, like when you think about like the technology adoption curve or whatever, um, where we're at in that kind of chasm before mass adoption where people have already adapted to a very volatile market, especially in the States.
00:39:30.730 --> 00:40:04.330
And they've done these mass like staff reductions or re-orgs, and they've let go of people that had a certain amount of institutional wisdom or proficiency, and they've thought, okay, well, we'll automate this, or okay, we can hire somebody more junior for less money for this role because this isn't necessarily a role that requires a whole ton of years of experience in that vacuum, in that delta.
00:40:04.330 --> 00:40:20.330
I'm seeing a really big uptick in a pivot toward just being able as a company to deliver on the fundamentals of the investments in technology that have already been made.
00:40:20.330 --> 00:40:45.450
I think from a security standpoint, When we see AI, the compute um speeds and and the infrastructure um uh demand that we're seeing for the sort of superintelligence that everybody's hungry for, there's a disconnect between what the industry can deliver against expectations.
00:40:45.450 --> 00:41:11.290
So I think we're gonna start to see a bit of a pendulum shift away from incredibly wild and maybe slightly perceived as security risk-based uh technology uh investments back in the whole notion of, well, when we divested in talent, what did we miss in the fundamentals of what we've already invested in?
00:41:11.290 --> 00:41:23.850
And especially since these tech companies are facing um exponential expectations from their boards, um, prices for these fundamental platforms are ever increasing.
00:41:23.850 --> 00:41:25.769
It's a super competitive landscape.
00:41:25.769 --> 00:41:31.290
Competitors are challenging status quo, and RFPs are abundant.
00:41:31.290 --> 00:41:34.490
I think you're gonna see people that are like, what do we have?
00:41:34.490 --> 00:41:35.690
What can we use?
00:41:35.690 --> 00:41:42.570
And what are we not up against the limitations of for what's already installed?
00:41:42.570 --> 00:41:58.570
And you're gonna find that there's an appetite to to really um level up on the capabilities that are already inherent, the talents and and the the tech that's already um, you know, I think then invested in.
00:41:58.570 --> 00:42:05.769
Hopefully, that's I'm hoping people can land the fundamentals before they decide to innovate the hell out of this industry, you know?
00:42:06.090 --> 00:42:11.850
Yeah, I mean my analogy is American football for international listeners.
00:42:11.850 --> 00:42:17.210
Um uh I think everything starts right in the trenches, right?
00:42:17.210 --> 00:42:22.810
I mean, so many companies get clever or do something, and it's the fundamentals are like that's what you have to build on.
00:42:23.210 --> 00:42:23.690
That's right.
00:42:23.690 --> 00:42:25.769
AI is coming, but not in two weeks.
00:42:25.769 --> 00:42:36.650
And there's gonna be an interim period here while um a level of trust and reliability, a POC of sorts is built out by the more daring out on the tightrope.
00:42:36.650 --> 00:42:40.570
Um but the enterprise is not gonna be, I don't think.
00:42:40.570 --> 00:42:50.570
Um I think the enterprise has some soul searching to do around where they're hoping for a magic bullet and where capabilities are actually at.
00:42:51.130 --> 00:42:52.010
Interesting take.
00:42:52.010 --> 00:42:52.410
All right.
00:42:52.410 --> 00:42:54.650
Well, Lauren, it's a lot of fun.
00:42:54.650 --> 00:42:56.170
I'm sure we could have gone on longer.
00:42:56.170 --> 00:43:05.050
As I feel like I say that every time, but if folks want to continue the conversation with you or just be able to follow you or learn more, what's the best way for them to do that?
00:43:05.450 --> 00:43:07.130
Find me on LinkedIn.
00:43:07.130 --> 00:43:10.170
Um I am only a stone's throwaway.
00:43:10.170 --> 00:43:12.890
I'd love to chat with anybody, everybody.
00:43:12.890 --> 00:43:16.730
Um, I do actually read and respond uh to my messages.
00:43:16.730 --> 00:43:21.610
So um offer, standing offer for anyone out there that uh would like to bend my gear.
00:43:21.610 --> 00:43:28.170
I probably won't buy your products or services if that's your intention, but I certainly will have an actual conversation with actual people.
00:43:28.410 --> 00:43:29.290
Yeah, there you go.
00:43:29.290 --> 00:43:30.090
I appreciate that.
00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:31.130
That's a good caveat.
00:43:31.130 --> 00:43:31.930
All right.
00:43:31.930 --> 00:43:33.450
Well, Lauren, again, thank you.
00:43:33.450 --> 00:43:34.410
Appreciate it.
00:43:34.410 --> 00:43:39.930
As always, thanks to our longtime and new listeners and viewers, I guess at this point.
00:43:39.930 --> 00:43:41.050
We appreciate all that.
00:43:41.050 --> 00:43:46.730
If you have ideas for topics or guests or want to be a guest, you can reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling.
00:43:46.730 --> 00:43:47.450
Till next time.
00:43:47.450 --> 00:43:48.410
Bye, everybody.
00:43:48.730 --> 00:43:49.290
Bye bye.
00:43:49.290 --> 00:43:50.730
Thanks, Michael.