How CEOs Build Managers Who Actually Scale a Business

WEBVTT
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We've talked about growth.
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We've talked about scaling.
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We've talked about how that breaks your culture and what happens as you grow in scale.
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You get leaders like you're like you get leaders that you're in charge of.
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Yes.
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Leading leaders.
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Yeah.
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Say that five times fast.
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You really are challenging me to do it.
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No.
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Okay.
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No, I can can you?
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I think leading leaders, leading leaders, leading leaders, leading leaders, leading leaders.
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If you want to learn how to do that, stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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Chrissy just mentioned, like most of us listen to podcasts at one point five X or two X. What did that.
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Please let us know in the comments what that sounded like with Chrissy at two X saying leading leaders quickly.
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That is our banter for the week.
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That is.
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I agree that is how we're gonna banter is uh, and I am, I am so excited to hear these responses.
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Yeah.
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Um, is Chrissy a chipmunk?
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Yes, the answer is yes.
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I sound like a chipmunk at two times speed.
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I know that because I talk fast.
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I wonder if I sound normal.
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I think you do, because the like bring me up to a normal level.
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Yeah.
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And, uh.
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Yeah.
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No.
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Maybe.
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Maybe that's.
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Yeah.
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It's interesting.
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Yeah.
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I find it so interesting how, like, people in leadership roles completely neglect middle management.
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Yeah.
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Or lower management, whatever it is, it just doesn't exist.
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It just doesn't exist.
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Like these people should just know I am the leader.
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Damn it.
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Read my mind.
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And every other leader in this company should just know.
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Uh, have you ever, like, seen that in action?
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Oh, absolutely.
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I've done it myself.
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Yeah, I've done it wrong.
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Yeah.
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I've been.
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I've been on the receiving end too.
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Oh, I've been on the receiving end of that so many times where I've been in like a middle management position and it's just like, come on, really?
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Aren't you part of this team?
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And I'm like, uh, you gotta tell me what to do, right?
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I would be if I had the playbook.
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Yeah.
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Um, you didn't give me the playbook, so I'm just going to hang out over here and cry.
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Yeah.
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We've talked about the shift from chief everything officer to visionary.
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Like how do you coach a manager to lead with that founder's touch without being like, hey, here's what I did.
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Yeah, because what you did doesn't work.
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Yeah, at least it shouldn't work in the way the business is scaled.
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No. So important question because, you know, copying the founder isn't scaling.
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That's cloning.
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We don't do that.
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So cloning doesn't build leadership depth.
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All right.
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That's a great point.
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Yeah it is.
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Do what I do.
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No you can't.
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You have to do it differently.
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So when founder scale they have to move from being that chief everything officer to the chief energy officer.
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Oh right.
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I like that one who sets direction, not dictate style.
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Okay, so I coach new managers around something we call authentic authority.
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All right.
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And there are three A's that go with it.
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So I count five there.
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Oh well three A's of authentic authority is really what they are.
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I'm good.
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Yes.
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That's fine.
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Hey.
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No. So the first one is alignment, which is don't copy my tone.
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Carry the mission.
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All right.
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Managers have to be deeply aligned with values, non-negotiables and the definition of success.
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If they understand why we do what we do.
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They can lead in their own voice.
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And we have to let them lead in their own voice.
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We can have shared language, but they have to be able to lead yes, in their own voice.
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All right.
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I truly love that because that is the one thing I gotta say.
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Sorry to interrupt, but this to me, this is the big swing and a miss that I see all the time.
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Do what I did.
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No no no no no no. Just get to the place on the map.
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Yeah yeah.
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Here's the alignment.
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Yep.
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So we have alignment.
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The next one is autonomy.
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And this is really important.
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It's give them the room to lead in perfectly.
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Okay.
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This is the empowerment paradox.
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If you don't give them the.
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If you don't give them the authority to fail a little, they're never going to build confidence.
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Okay.
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Do not always rescue them.
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All right?
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I tell managers, I want you to make decisions that I wouldn't make.
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All right.
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As long as they honor the values, make the decisions.
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Because there are certain things that I'm not going to do.
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But you know what?
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It may work for you.
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And as long as we're within our values and we're working on meeting the expectations that we've clarified, that's good.
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That's scaling.
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I do not expect them to do things exactly the way that I did them.
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They need to have autonomy.
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So and then the third one is accountability, which is the big one.
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So it's standards.
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So manager doesn't have to sound like me, but they do have to enforce expectations like me.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So founders touch is touches consistency, not personality.
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So in the scaling trap, we've kind of talked about some of those things.
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I want to talk a little bit more about what the litmus test is for managers, if you'll let me.
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Oh yeah, we talked about that.
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Let's I love tests.
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So, um, we talk about dilution of values.
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And so I know you've talked about like success as a shared thing all the time.
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So this is the leadership litmus test and it's are they multiplying success or are they monopolizing it?
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Okay, so here's how I measure that.
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It's four questions.
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You ready?
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Oh yeah.
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Are they developing others big?
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Are they delegating authority?
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Not just tasks?
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Are they giving credit publicly?
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That's a huge one.
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Yes.
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And then are they protecting the standards consistently?
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So if a manager's team succeeds, but only because that manager's overfunctioning, that's not shared success.
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That's centralized control.
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Correct.
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Yeah.
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So in resilient operating system, we teach that leadership is leverage.
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So if success doesn't expand beyond the leader, it isn't shared.
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Oh Ooh yeah, that's a great way to put that.
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Yeah.
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A more simple way to even think about it is if your manager is the hero every week.
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If they're telling you how they were the hero, that team is still dependent on that person.
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Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that.
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Yeah.
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They should be talking about how the people and their team got to got to where they are.
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They did the thing, not I did the thing or I had to rescue them.
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Right?
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It's this person did this, this person did that.
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We're working together as a team.
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We're moving forward.
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Yeah.
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Love that.
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How do you handle when we're building leaders?
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How do you handle like the nice leader?
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Like, hey, everyone on my team is wonderful and I can't tell them bad news.
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Yeah.
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Can you tell them the bad news for me?
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No. They got to do it, too.
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We can maybe do it together.
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Like, I'll coach you on how to do it, but I'm not going to do it for you.
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You could measure the hesitation in that in milliseconds.
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Yeah, there was none.
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There was none.
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Um, so, you know, being too nice in management isn't kindness, it's inconsistency guise disguised as compassion.
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So we've got to make sure.
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So we talked in a probably twenty episodes ago.
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I don't even know about the three C's of leadership, clarity, consistency and care.
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Yep.
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So there are three C's to manage your courage.
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All right.
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Which is really teaching them how to communicate effectively and be brave in leadership.
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And those are clarity, consistency and consequence.
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Oh yeah.
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So clarity if expectations aren't clear, feedback feels personal.
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So nice.
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Managers avoid clarity because they don't want discomfort.
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Talk about being clear as to be kind.
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So explaining what needs to happen, being very clear in your communication.
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Consistency is where we make exceptions.
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You know, nice managers say yes too often.
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Oh yeah, that's okay.
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You can do that.
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They bend the rules, right.
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Every exception teaches the team that standards are optional.
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So we have to be consistent in how we manage.
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And the third one is consequence.
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And that is if behavior doesn't change and nothing happens, culture erodes.
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So when I'm coaching managers, I don't attack their niceness, I redirect it.
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And so I say, you know, if you really care about your people, you will be direct with them.
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So we role play conversations, we document expectations.
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We set those follow ups because kindness without clarity creates that confusion.
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And so it's really important that that third C of consequence is the standards that you're maintaining for the organization.
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They just have to be there.
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Yeah.
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That's it.
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Non-Negotiable.
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Yeah.
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So here's what I will say too about managers.
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Before they can lead other people, they have to lead themselves.
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Oh, so I call it being a manager of one.
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So you've got to be a manager.
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Stop it.
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You you have to be a manager of one first.
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So here are some things that you have to learn how to manage.
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So if you cannot manage your own calendar, manage your own emotional response and manage your own capacity.
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You are not capable of leading other people.
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All right.
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Scaling leaders have to be able to manage their own energy before they manage the execution of others.
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That sounded awful.
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Scaling the execution of the business with the people, not executing people with their heads.
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That goes back to the consequence piece.
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Does cause bad consequences.
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Goes back to consequence.
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Off with their heads.
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I'm so glad.
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That was fun.
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Um, yeah.
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So you gotta you gotta manage your business.
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It is serious business.
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I will say that because here's the thing.
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You can maintain sole, you can maintain, you can empower people, but it's really about, you know, how do you lead yourself first?
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And if you cannot manage your own self, then you probably shouldn't be managing others.
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It truly is.
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I want to revisit something real quick that you said earlier.
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Yes.
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Um, it's about the, uh, in terms of the leadership litmus test.
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Yeah.
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And going back to that, um, where was it?
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It was the autonomy.
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Yeah.
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Just the other day I was asked a question from a leader.
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Yeah.
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And like, how should we handle this?
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And my gut instinct was to say something, but I'm like, nope, I need to ask the question.
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What are your thoughts on this?
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Yeah.
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Tell me what you think.
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Like, how do you feel we should handle this.
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And it was just to sit back and listen to that first, rather than me blurting out what I thought.
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Yeah, I needed to sit back and be like, ah, no, this is a leadership position.
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I need to let them speak.
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Speak, and I need to let them lead.
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Yeah.
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And it's sometimes it going to take longer than if you just gave them the answer.
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Absolutely.
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Yep.
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But this you're playing the long game with your people.
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It's an investment.
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Yeah.
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Yep.
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Sure is.
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All right.
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So let's talk about operations.
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Let's yay.
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All right.
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How do you keep a management team on track without micromanaging them, which is really how do you maintain that communication that we've talked about in the last episode, becoming the game of telephone?
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How do we not?
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How do we want to eliminate bad telephone?
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Please tell everyone.
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It's funny, I have to go back to the late two thousand or whatever, maybe twenty ten, where, uh, Michael Scott was talking about like how he would micro manage people.
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Except it was Jim came up with the micro where.
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We, we, we've got, I mean, we've got standard operating procedures for the work.
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We need SOPs for reporting.
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We need SOPs to figure out like how the leader is doing.
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We can't just be like, ah, they're doing okay.
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Um, you need a way to look at this that is operational, not just.
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MM, I like Bob.
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Yes.
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Um, no. So you need to be able to go from.
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Tell me what happened.
00:12:30.873 --> 00:12:31.539
I see the data.
00:12:31.539 --> 00:12:33.706
You shouldn't be looking at the millilitres data.
00:12:33.706 --> 00:12:33.972
Every day.
00:12:33.972 --> 00:12:34.472
You shouldn't.
00:12:34.472 --> 00:12:36.072
Like they're there for a reason.
00:12:36.072 --> 00:12:36.605
They're looking.
00:12:36.605 --> 00:12:38.105
They're able to to do stuff.
00:12:38.105 --> 00:12:38.706
Exactly.
00:12:38.706 --> 00:12:40.273
You should have access to it, though.
00:12:40.273 --> 00:12:43.773
And you should be reviewing it on, let's say, a quarterly basis.
00:12:43.773 --> 00:12:45.906
Let's say I mean on something.
00:12:45.906 --> 00:12:46.605
Check in.
00:12:46.605 --> 00:12:47.873
Correct.
00:12:47.873 --> 00:12:51.906
Like if you aren't checking in on this, then you're leading by exception.
00:12:51.906 --> 00:12:53.673
You talked about that earlier, like.
00:12:53.673 --> 00:12:56.472
Like, hey, we'll allow this this one time.
00:12:56.472 --> 00:12:56.940
Yeah.
00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:01.373
Um, no, you, you have to let the leaders lead in that.
00:13:01.373 --> 00:13:12.706
The other thing is too, is like in so many cases, people are judging millilitres by the health of the machine, um, not by the individual cogs.
00:13:12.706 --> 00:13:23.773
And if you look, you can, if you've got four different departments and with four different leaders and they're hitting their deadlines and they're all doing, you're like, this is all okay.
00:13:23.773 --> 00:13:25.673
Um, you're like, we're good, we're good.
00:13:25.673 --> 00:13:33.840
Meanwhile, in one area under one leader, you've got people that are just ready to lose their ever loving minds.
00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:37.505
You're just looking at the numbers and you're looking at the.
00:13:37.505 --> 00:13:40.873
So you're not you're not looking at the picture on that.
00:13:40.873 --> 00:13:43.306
The retention rate is the.
00:13:43.306 --> 00:13:44.906
I call this a lagging indicator.
00:13:44.906 --> 00:13:46.173
If you've got people leaving.
00:13:46.173 --> 00:13:48.306
Boy, you got a problem.
00:13:48.306 --> 00:13:49.072
Yeah.
00:13:49.072 --> 00:13:55.605
That is the largest red flag that I see ignored constantly.
00:13:55.605 --> 00:13:56.139
Yeah.
00:13:56.139 --> 00:13:57.505
In businesses.
00:13:57.505 --> 00:13:58.173
Um, yeah.
00:13:58.173 --> 00:14:00.706
We just can't find people that are willing to work.
00:14:00.706 --> 00:14:06.240
Well, everybody know your long tenured people are leaving and you cannot keep people in the seat.
00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:06.740
People leave.
00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:08.240
People exit within ninety days.
00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:08.972
I don't understand.
00:14:08.972 --> 00:14:13.572
Well, clearly we've done a great job in making sure that they either want to do the job or not know.
00:14:13.572 --> 00:14:14.173
Yeah.
00:14:14.173 --> 00:14:19.673
This to me is is a huge part of the the that people don't work.
00:14:19.673 --> 00:14:22.505
Um, where that where you the answer is for you.
00:14:22.505 --> 00:14:23.505
Correct, correct.
00:14:23.505 --> 00:14:25.740
There's always there's the end of that sentence.
00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:26.440
It's the same thing.
00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:28.373
I forget what the full sentence even is.
00:14:28.373 --> 00:14:33.740
the customer is always right was actually part of a greater sentence that someone just shortened.
00:14:33.740 --> 00:14:39.840
Um, that being said, another piece to this too is there's always the firefighter audit that you need to do.
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:44.005
Um, the why, why are there so many fires?
00:14:44.005 --> 00:14:50.306
Is the manager resolving the root cause or are they just treating the symptom?
00:14:50.306 --> 00:14:55.472
Yeah, that is the thing that I see in so many cases, people are like, oh, we'll put a band aid on it, get it out the door.
00:14:55.472 --> 00:14:59.005
No, no, no, no, no, there is a machine back there that is smoking.
00:14:59.005 --> 00:15:00.373
Yes.
00:15:00.373 --> 00:15:01.139
It's fine.
00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:02.340
Right, right.
00:15:02.340 --> 00:15:03.572
Just give it some oil.
00:15:03.572 --> 00:15:04.873
It'll it'll be fine.
00:15:04.873 --> 00:15:11.840
Uh, that constant firefighting, if you've got that manager that is constantly stressed out and like, oh, I'm doing this, I'm doing this.
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:12.240
I'm doing.
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.440
No, no, no, no, that's a broken sop.
00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.273
That's a broken manager.
00:15:16.273 --> 00:15:19.773
That's not that's, that's, that's a broken leader.
00:15:19.773 --> 00:15:24.105
That's a leadership that doesn't have their SOPs in order.
00:15:24.105 --> 00:15:27.773
Either way, it is a leadership concern that needs addressed?
00:15:27.773 --> 00:15:28.440
Yes.
00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:36.740
Um, if they are putting out fires before you see them once again, you kind of need to find a way to figure that out.
00:15:36.740 --> 00:15:37.273
Yeah.
00:15:37.273 --> 00:15:43.505
If they find a way to solve it with guardrails or did they create inconsistency in your SOPs?
00:15:43.505 --> 00:15:44.940
That is what we need to look at.
00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:52.873
Because once again, if they're creating inconsistency, you need to look is it going to cause another fire next week?
00:15:52.873 --> 00:15:54.773
Um, hey, we made the exception.
00:15:54.773 --> 00:15:57.173
I believe you mentioned something about making exceptions.
00:15:57.173 --> 00:15:58.472
Yeah.
00:15:58.472 --> 00:15:59.306
Consistency.
00:15:59.306 --> 00:16:01.673
It dilutes the consistency one hundred percent.
00:16:01.673 --> 00:16:06.072
And your customers are expecting consistency.
00:16:06.072 --> 00:16:07.072
Everyone is expecting.
00:16:07.072 --> 00:16:10.273
I mean, like, everyone should know which way the wind is blowing.
00:16:10.273 --> 00:16:10.906
Yes.
00:16:10.906 --> 00:16:12.472
And everyone knows what I'm referring to.
00:16:12.472 --> 00:16:14.105
I've said that enough times, haven't I?
00:16:17.139 --> 00:16:17.940
To me, the other.
00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:23.940
The big thing is that I find when it comes to leading leaders is there's the communication friction.
00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:24.440
Yes.
00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:27.572
Um, You end up with this.
00:16:27.572 --> 00:16:28.005
The.
00:16:30.072 --> 00:16:32.572
You alluded to it and you actually talked about it is.
00:16:32.572 --> 00:16:34.773
There's this empowered decentralization.
00:16:34.773 --> 00:16:35.139
Yes.
00:16:35.139 --> 00:16:39.706
As long as they have the vision and as long as they have the best interest in mind.
00:16:39.706 --> 00:16:40.505
Great.
00:16:40.505 --> 00:16:40.873
Yes.
00:16:40.873 --> 00:16:42.472
Let them make the decision.
00:16:42.472 --> 00:16:43.373
To me, I like it.
00:16:43.373 --> 00:16:43.773
Decision.
00:16:43.773 --> 00:16:45.340
Autonomy within guardrails.
00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:45.940
Yes.
00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:52.572
Um, give them some guardrails, some financial boundaries, whatever they need to do to make some of these binary calls.
00:16:52.572 --> 00:17:02.773
But like, look, if it, if it, if it aligns with SOP and the mission, I don't, don't call me and below a dollar amount, there's a certain dollar amount I don't ever want to have to make a decision on.
00:17:02.773 --> 00:17:04.005
No, just do it.
00:17:04.005 --> 00:17:04.873
They have their budget.
00:17:04.873 --> 00:17:06.173
They know how to manage their budget.
00:17:06.173 --> 00:17:07.605
These are the things that I expect.
00:17:07.605 --> 00:17:08.539
Exactly.
00:17:08.539 --> 00:17:12.740
The other thing is too, is when you're leading leaders, you need to get the hell out of the way.
00:17:12.740 --> 00:17:14.740
Um, you are the bottleneck.
00:17:14.740 --> 00:17:15.139
Yeah.
00:17:15.139 --> 00:17:21.440
Um, as you get promoted to that position, all those jobs that you used to do, you shouldn't be doing anymore.
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:22.572
Don't do them anymore.
00:17:22.572 --> 00:17:24.306
No, no, because.
00:17:24.306 --> 00:17:25.905
And don't take them away from people to do.
00:17:25.905 --> 00:17:26.772
Oh, I'll just help you.
00:17:26.772 --> 00:17:28.272
No, you don't do it.
00:17:29.472 --> 00:17:29.972
Why?
00:17:29.972 --> 00:17:32.173
Why are you doing that job?
00:17:32.173 --> 00:17:33.905
Um, I learned helplessness.
00:17:33.905 --> 00:17:36.105
That is not okay for your team members to have.
00:17:36.105 --> 00:17:43.105
The the way you said that, though, is it sounded like Chrissy of today angry at Chrissy of yesterday.
00:17:43.105 --> 00:17:44.373
Angry at Chrissy of yesterday.
00:17:44.373 --> 00:17:50.673
And then there's also moments where it's Chrissy of today reminding herself how to manage people better so that they don't do that.
00:17:50.673 --> 00:17:58.673
Because I have watched individuals in my organization say, well, they haven't trained someone for six months to a year, and they're like, well, I don't understand why I'm so busy.
00:17:58.673 --> 00:18:02.105
I'm like, because you never train the person to do the thing that you were supposed to train them on.
00:18:02.105 --> 00:18:04.440
They're waiting for your capacity, right?
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:05.105
Oh, right.
00:18:05.105 --> 00:18:06.940
I see them over there playing solitaire.
00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:07.306
Yeah.
00:18:07.306 --> 00:18:08.905
They're waiting for they're waiting for this.
00:18:08.905 --> 00:18:14.373
Well, and we had a, I had a conversation, um, this week because we're working on some hiring things within our organization.
00:18:14.373 --> 00:18:17.539
And I have someone that's saying, okay, I'm training this person now.
00:18:17.539 --> 00:18:19.573
I think we need more people to do this job.
00:18:19.573 --> 00:18:21.140
And we're like, time out.
00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:32.073
We're not hiring more people to do this job until this person is trained to do this job, and we know that they can do the job and they don't have like and they have excess capacity or not.
00:18:32.073 --> 00:18:32.673
Right?
00:18:32.673 --> 00:18:41.806
So it's again, that space of like, it goes from holding the boundary around, you know, who needs to be trained to do the job versus holding the boundary around.
00:18:41.806 --> 00:18:43.105
I am not doing the job.
00:18:43.105 --> 00:18:45.772
So you've got to be able to kind of keep paying attention.
00:18:45.772 --> 00:18:49.673
It it's a great point you bring up because once again, just saying, hey, I used to do this.
00:18:49.673 --> 00:18:50.673
Here's how I did it.
00:18:50.673 --> 00:18:51.972
It's not training.
00:18:51.972 --> 00:18:55.772
No, no. And the same thing with we have an SOP for that.
00:18:55.772 --> 00:18:56.873
You just have to read it.
00:18:56.873 --> 00:18:59.573
Not everybody is a is a reading learner.
00:18:59.573 --> 00:19:00.573
Some of them are touchy.
00:19:00.573 --> 00:19:02.673
They're tactile, they're auditory.
00:19:02.673 --> 00:19:04.573
So you've got to be able to present it.
00:19:04.573 --> 00:19:09.873
And just as a reminder, it takes people ten times usually to master something or truly understand it.
00:19:09.873 --> 00:19:12.240
So you have to repeat it more than once.
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.105
Correct.
00:19:13.105 --> 00:19:18.140
Do not give them ten videos, lock them in a room and say you're trained.
00:19:18.140 --> 00:19:26.339
No, I've received that at so many businesses that I've worked at where they're like, here's a bunch of videos, go like a week's worth of videos, go watch these.
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.073
And now you're trained and there's retraining.
00:19:28.073 --> 00:19:30.873
There are times where you have to get back in the same room and go, okay, you know what?
00:19:30.873 --> 00:19:32.006
We've done it this way.
00:19:32.006 --> 00:19:35.306
Let's make sure that what we have documented is the same way that we're doing it.
00:19:35.306 --> 00:19:42.440
If it's not, then we need to have a conversation about does the process need to change or does does something else need to be documented?
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:53.073
There's a reason why a few years ago, Starbucks shut down their entire operation one day and retrained everybody on how to make a latte, because nobody was making it the same way Chipotle did it.
00:19:53.073 --> 00:19:53.905
On cutting lettuce.
00:19:53.905 --> 00:19:55.240
Exactly.
00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:55.539
Yep.
00:19:55.539 --> 00:19:56.640
It happens.
00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:56.940
Yeah.
00:19:56.940 --> 00:19:59.905
Retraining is a part of just it's part of your organization.
00:19:59.905 --> 00:20:01.073
And you need to.
00:20:01.073 --> 00:20:09.673
And I would say you don't have to revisit them constantly, but I would say at least twice a year, maybe quarterly, depending on how fast you're scaling, you revisit those SOPs.
00:20:09.673 --> 00:20:10.640
Oh, definitely.
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.472
I always say at least give it a read through.
00:20:13.472 --> 00:20:21.073
If you've got a twenty page manual, well then obviously you should be splitting that up between the people that are actually enacting these and working with these?
00:20:21.073 --> 00:20:21.573
Yes.
00:20:21.573 --> 00:20:23.806
But yeah, no, you should be reading, rereading those.
00:20:23.806 --> 00:20:25.140
And does it need to change?
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:25.573
Correct.
00:20:25.573 --> 00:20:40.373
Asking the question the two times like a little bit off, off topic here, but to me that I always say is whenever we ran into a problem, and this is why I always love the SOPs, because whenever we ran into a problem, I'd always be like, okay, is this a one off situation or are we missing something?
00:20:40.373 --> 00:20:41.740
And do we need to change our process?
00:20:41.740 --> 00:20:42.272
Exactly.
00:20:42.272 --> 00:20:46.539
You cannot get any better if your process is just whatever it takes to get it done.
00:20:46.539 --> 00:20:47.140
Exactly.
00:20:47.140 --> 00:20:48.073
That's not a standard.
00:20:48.073 --> 00:20:49.806
It's it's never going to get it better.
00:20:49.806 --> 00:20:54.640
Uh, the other thing that I find too is encouraging directness.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:02.506
As a manager, um, yeah, people like, look, if people aren't, aren't direct, they're going to have a tough time working for me.
00:21:02.506 --> 00:21:05.472
Yeah, I can see that.
00:21:05.472 --> 00:21:08.905
Um, if you're not direct and you want to work with me.
00:21:08.905 --> 00:21:11.339
I would suggest a helmet and earplugs.
00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:13.940
Um, that's, uh, Chrissy usually has your plug.
00:21:13.940 --> 00:21:17.705
She's got earplugs under her headphones right now, so.
00:21:17.705 --> 00:21:19.173
Oh, and I just need you to tell me.
00:21:19.173 --> 00:21:21.073
Tell me the thing and tell it to me.
00:21:21.073 --> 00:21:22.440
Generally tell it to me quickly.
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:23.772
So correct.
00:21:23.772 --> 00:21:39.806
The other thing is, so the some of the things that I look at from a manager level, like there's the, the eyes test, the spark really is like when you ask someone how their day is going, do they look at you or do they look away?
00:21:39.806 --> 00:21:41.272
Yeah, that's a very good one.
00:21:41.272 --> 00:21:42.472
That is very telling.
00:21:42.472 --> 00:21:46.573
And you won't notice it in some cases unless you're paying attention to it.
00:21:46.573 --> 00:21:46.972
Yeah.
00:21:46.972 --> 00:21:53.006
Um, if you see the eyes go a little bit dim, you're like, uh, oh yeah, I have a leadership issue.
00:21:53.006 --> 00:21:55.140
Do they seem excited about what they're doing?
00:21:55.140 --> 00:21:56.272
Correct.
00:21:56.272 --> 00:22:03.240
Um, in so many ways, if you talk to the employees, that will tell you how the leader is doing.
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:04.073
Yeah.
00:22:04.073 --> 00:22:07.705
If, if you look for the spark or the dimming in an employee.
00:22:07.705 --> 00:22:08.539
Hey, how's it going?
00:22:08.539 --> 00:22:13.573
Now, there's always going to be that one guy that's going to be like, hey, great, Josh, how are you today?
00:22:13.573 --> 00:22:15.240
Just happy to be here.
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:17.105
You're like, okay, drug test for you.
00:22:17.105 --> 00:22:17.740
Yes.
00:22:19.873 --> 00:22:23.940
But once again, talking to those employees that are under those leaders.
00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:26.140
And once again, it's just a hi.
00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:27.640
How's things going?
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:29.272
If they turn, look away.
00:22:29.272 --> 00:22:32.105
If they get dim, if whatever it is.
00:22:32.105 --> 00:22:32.539
Yeah.
00:22:32.539 --> 00:22:34.740
You can learn so much from walking the floor.
00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:37.006
Oh, wholeheartedly.
00:22:37.006 --> 00:22:37.140
Yeah.
00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:41.905
Leadership by wandering around looking lost.
00:22:41.905 --> 00:22:43.472
Yes.
00:22:43.472 --> 00:22:44.472
Last thing real quick.
00:22:44.472 --> 00:22:49.006
Operationally operationalising the lead the leader meetings.
00:22:49.006 --> 00:22:52.240
So I don't ask people, what did you do today?
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.140
It's once again, it's what are the bottlenecks that I can remove for you and your team?
00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:55.705
How can I help?
00:22:55.705 --> 00:22:57.640
Yes, the how can I help?
00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.006
I mean, every single time.
00:23:00.006 --> 00:23:01.306
Here's where we're headed.
00:23:01.306 --> 00:23:02.440
How can I help?
00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:04.339
Once again, how can I help?
00:23:04.339 --> 00:23:06.905
You have to show up for them.
00:23:06.905 --> 00:23:09.272
This, to me, is just no matter what.
00:23:09.272 --> 00:23:12.806
If there's no offense, you can forget your alliteration.
00:23:12.806 --> 00:23:14.539
You can forget all those other things.
00:23:14.539 --> 00:23:18.806
You have to show up for your leaders the way you want them to show up for the other people.
00:23:18.806 --> 00:23:19.472
Yes.
00:23:19.472 --> 00:23:21.772
If you don't, it's not going to happen.
00:23:21.772 --> 00:23:25.673
We've talked and we've we've talked about this in so many other ways.
00:23:25.673 --> 00:23:28.539
I mean, when we talked about the I love the example that you gave.
00:23:28.539 --> 00:23:31.173
It's a husband and wife that run the company that says no dating at work.
00:23:31.173 --> 00:23:31.373
Yes.
00:23:31.373 --> 00:23:32.905
We model what we mandate.
00:23:32.905 --> 00:23:34.006
Yeah, we have to.
00:23:34.006 --> 00:23:35.740
Yeah, it totally is.
00:23:35.740 --> 00:23:44.373
So what happens when what happens when we go from accountability versus autonomy?
00:23:44.373 --> 00:23:48.740
Like there's how much flexibility do you give leaders?
00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:53.105
How much like do you like, when does it become inconsistent?
00:23:53.105 --> 00:23:58.073
How do you look at that as like, okay, they don't lead like me, but we're still on track.
00:24:55.293 --> 00:24:56.360
What are the things you look at?
00:24:56.360 --> 00:25:01.460
So I think autonomy becomes dangerous when it turns into unpredictability.
00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:03.093
Ah, I love this.
00:25:03.093 --> 00:25:04.793
I mean style can vary.
00:25:04.793 --> 00:25:06.125
Standards cannot.
00:25:06.125 --> 00:25:10.026
So leaders have to define, you know, what's non-negotiable.
00:25:10.026 --> 00:25:14.125
So how feedback is delivered, how conflict is handled, how performance is measured.
00:25:14.125 --> 00:25:21.526
And I mean, I tell managers, you have the freedom in your tone and approach, but not in the values or the standards that we have.
00:25:21.526 --> 00:25:26.026
So our four core values, you are going to be keeping our purpose statement.
00:25:26.026 --> 00:25:32.360
That is, it's not changing, but how you have the conversation, you can approach it differently.
00:25:32.360 --> 00:25:36.893
So I think when you give autonomy without guardrails, you create culture drift.
00:25:36.893 --> 00:25:37.192
Sure.
00:25:37.192 --> 00:25:41.393
But when you give autonomy inside guardrails, you build leadership depth.
00:25:41.393 --> 00:25:41.960
Sure.
00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:46.160
I and it's interesting, I like how you say it's guardrails and not a box.
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:53.726
It's not a box because once again, you do like, can you imagine if your company had just was filled with XRS?
00:25:53.726 --> 00:25:55.293
Oh god no. It's terrible.
00:25:57.026 --> 00:25:58.860
They really don't need more than one.
00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:06.793
Sometimes I think one is the lost ones a lot, depending on what's going on, and they'll probably tell you that too.
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:12.460
They're like, oh crap, she's in the office today, right?
00:26:12.460 --> 00:26:14.326
What new idea are we going to be doing?
00:26:14.326 --> 00:26:16.992
Headphones on, headphones on, headphones on, headphones on.
00:26:16.992 --> 00:26:19.360
Accuracy or it's questions around, you know.
00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:20.492
Hey, we're doing this with this client.
00:26:20.492 --> 00:26:20.992
What do you think.
00:26:20.992 --> 00:26:21.793
So I love.
00:26:21.793 --> 00:26:24.492
I love getting to talk to them about some of the things that they're working on.
00:26:24.492 --> 00:26:28.925
But there's times where it's like, no, I couldn't imagine having another person like, I'd be tired all the time.
00:26:28.925 --> 00:26:30.093
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:30.093 --> 00:26:32.759
No, I, I mean, can you imagine if there was two joshes?
00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:34.526
No, I cannot.
00:26:34.526 --> 00:26:39.526
That would be some funny, short, angry conversations.
00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:44.660
It might be fun to watch for a short period of time.
00:26:44.660 --> 00:26:46.660
Yeah, for a short period of time.
00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:51.226
Uh, how do you how do you incentivize managers to carry about.
00:26:51.226 --> 00:26:56.125
To care about the return on investment in the organization, not just their department's silo?
00:26:56.125 --> 00:26:57.960
Oh, not just themselves.
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:04.526
I like at the truck dealership, this was so hard to untangle because sales was incentivized to sell trucks.
00:27:04.526 --> 00:27:06.026
They didn't care what service did.
00:27:06.026 --> 00:27:12.326
Service was incentivized just to make as much money as they could, so they didn't care what they did to throw parts under the bus.
00:27:12.326 --> 00:27:14.093
And parts was like, whatever.
00:27:14.093 --> 00:27:14.660
Yeah.
00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:17.226
Um, how do you keep the how do you keep that from happening?
00:27:17.226 --> 00:27:18.393
I think there's a couple of things.
00:27:18.393 --> 00:27:27.593
First, everyone has to know what the shared vision is of the organization as a whole and how they share their portion supports the whole.
00:27:27.593 --> 00:27:27.992
Yep.
00:27:27.992 --> 00:27:33.393
Because otherwise, I mean, I have seen departments, I mean, they protect their budgets like kingdoms.
00:27:33.393 --> 00:27:39.226
So especially in other organizations that we manage, we deal with, I mean, and that's a leadership design issue.
00:27:39.226 --> 00:27:40.660
That's not a personality issue.
00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:47.559
So, you know, incentives for managers, I think they should always reflect some form of collaboration if marketing wins.
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:50.393
But sales struggles, that's not shared success.
00:27:50.393 --> 00:27:54.093
So it's really about, you know, shared success has to be visible.
00:27:54.093 --> 00:27:58.726
So that's why I think that managers need access to company level metrics, not just their slice.
00:27:58.726 --> 00:28:05.759
And so that's, I think it's something that can be heavily debated because people are like, oh, well, they only need to see this component of how the organization works.
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:14.793
I'm like, no, it's really much better for those managers, especially when you're leading across big teams that can see the whole because transparency drives ownership.
00:28:14.793 --> 00:28:15.293
It does.
00:28:15.293 --> 00:28:15.492
Yeah.
00:28:15.492 --> 00:28:16.293
What do you think?
00:28:16.293 --> 00:28:20.925
It's funny for me because the I always feel like the incentives in so many ways are misaligned.
00:28:20.925 --> 00:28:21.660
Yeah.
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:26.226
There should be an incentive to like for just profitability.
00:28:26.226 --> 00:28:26.793
Yes.
00:28:26.793 --> 00:28:35.360
Um, overall and it should be pretty close to where like to, to the same amount that your department is.
00:28:35.360 --> 00:28:36.026
Yes.
00:28:36.026 --> 00:28:42.660
Um, and once again, most people still aren't going to sacrifice one for the other, but it gets them closer to it.
00:28:42.660 --> 00:28:42.992
Yeah.
00:28:42.992 --> 00:28:57.360
And if you've built the right culture of trust, that's the other big piece to it because I have seen it in so many cases where this manager's going to stab that manager in the back, because they just want to throw the blame game around, or we're competitors instead of collaborators.
00:28:57.360 --> 00:28:57.893
Correct.
00:28:57.893 --> 00:29:03.793
Because once again, it's the if I can blame service, then I'm not going to get yelled at.
00:29:03.793 --> 00:29:05.893
Well, no, that's that's not the case.
00:29:05.893 --> 00:29:06.526
It should be.
00:29:06.526 --> 00:29:09.125
Hey, what can we do to take care of the problem?
00:29:09.125 --> 00:29:09.559
Not.
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.093
I'm afraid of getting yelled at.
00:29:11.093 --> 00:29:12.793
Yeah, that's that's an issue.
00:29:12.793 --> 00:29:18.860
But I would say to if you are the leader of the organization, you cannot play favorites between departments.
00:29:18.860 --> 00:29:21.393
No. And that happens a lot.
00:29:21.393 --> 00:29:23.593
Oh. Because when you do that, everyone notices.
00:29:23.593 --> 00:29:28.526
So you have to model as a leader, cross-functional thinking how do we all work together?
00:29:28.526 --> 00:29:36.226
Yes, I've seen and I've seen it to the point where like, people have asked questions like, do they have pictures of the owner in a compromising position?
00:29:36.226 --> 00:29:48.559
Um, because like the favoritism has been that bad and you're like, um, yeah, this and you see how it just completely hobbles it can the entire company.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:49.125
Yes.
00:29:49.125 --> 00:30:03.026
Um, because you've got one thing that's trying to hum along, but it doesn't because it gets all sorts of favoritism and passes and goes outside of the culture while the other departments are like, well, there is no culture because this department isn't doing there.
00:30:03.026 --> 00:30:04.460
Yeah, exactly.
00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:07.960
It just turns into a giant, giant, giant mess.
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:13.960
Um, to me, one of the big key takeaways on this is stop answering and start asking.
00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:19.893
When you get like when someone comes to you and says, what should I do about this?
00:30:19.893 --> 00:30:21.660
They probably know the answer.
00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:22.925
Yeah, ask them for it.
00:30:22.925 --> 00:30:23.960
Don't tell them yours.
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:24.726
Exactly.
00:30:24.726 --> 00:30:30.160
And I would say work on building that authentic authority, alignment, autonomy and accountability.
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:31.393
Wow.
00:30:31.393 --> 00:30:37.125
That's, that's I still, I'm, I'm always impressed with how you're able to get these multiple words out.
00:30:37.125 --> 00:30:39.093
This is how my brain works.
00:30:39.093 --> 00:30:39.692
Yes.
00:30:42.925 --> 00:30:50.860
The, this is why we co-host this because once again, and I always talk about this, I love this because we typically get to the same spot.
00:30:50.860 --> 00:30:51.660
Yeah.
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:55.860
The road that we take to get there very different, very different, very different.
00:30:55.860 --> 00:31:01.660
Um, to me, the other thing that I, I've seen this so many times too is in leadership.
00:31:01.660 --> 00:31:12.026
I would have leadership come in and tell me about their like they would, they would tell me about their project updates, like, here's what we're doing, here's what we're doing, here's what we're doing.
00:31:12.026 --> 00:31:17.393
And then they'd leave, they'd be like, but, but, but, but but, but I have questions.
00:31:17.393 --> 00:31:20.125
Yes, allow for those.
00:31:20.125 --> 00:31:21.192
Allow for those.
00:31:21.192 --> 00:31:22.726
Ask them.
00:31:22.726 --> 00:31:26.226
As a leader, your number one priority should be to ask yes.
00:31:26.226 --> 00:31:30.026
And the people that you're leading, you still need their leaders.
00:31:30.026 --> 00:31:30.559
Yeah.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:32.093
But you're leading them.
00:31:32.093 --> 00:31:33.793
You should ask them.
00:31:33.793 --> 00:31:34.393
Yeah.
00:31:34.393 --> 00:31:36.925
I would say last for me, it's the three C's of that manager.
00:31:36.925 --> 00:31:37.692
Courage.
00:31:37.692 --> 00:31:43.226
So clarity, consistency and consequence in parentheses because you care.
00:31:43.226 --> 00:31:44.692
That's why you have consequence.
00:31:44.692 --> 00:31:44.925
Yeah.
00:31:44.925 --> 00:31:48.860
No, it's it's the you can't be parental but it's the same thing.
00:31:48.860 --> 00:31:50.326
I am looking out for your best interests.
00:31:50.326 --> 00:31:50.726
Yes.
00:31:50.726 --> 00:31:55.726
As long as you do other things to make sure people know that you're looking out for their best interests, it's great.
00:31:55.726 --> 00:32:02.192
The other thing to me is the foundation check if your second story managers are shaking up, if they're collapsing.
00:32:03.492 --> 00:32:05.559
Don't build your house on top of it.
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:10.326
No. Fix it, fix it, fix it, damn it! Yes.
00:32:10.326 --> 00:32:12.326
Have we talked about fixing that type of stuff?
00:32:12.326 --> 00:32:14.925
The other thing is, too, is I.
00:32:12.326 --> 00:32:15.793
As I'm looking at this too, you said clarity again.
00:32:15.793 --> 00:32:18.526
I believe that seems to be once again, it's a theme.
00:32:18.526 --> 00:32:21.160
It's y I mean, come on, you name a company clarity.
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:22.160
That's important.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.226
It's clarity is a big deal.
00:32:24.226 --> 00:32:30.026
Uh, is it better to hire a leader from the outside or promote from within during a growth spurt?
00:32:30.026 --> 00:32:31.160
So it depends, I love this.
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:32.925
Yeah, it depends on the gap for me.
00:32:32.925 --> 00:32:36.293
So if you need new perspective and structure, fast hire outside.
00:32:36.293 --> 00:32:43.093
If your culture is strong and someone internally is ready, then you promote them, but you never promote without development.
00:32:43.093 --> 00:32:44.759
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:45.192
There's.
00:32:45.192 --> 00:32:49.192
Yes, if you've been working on someone and developing them for this wonderful.
00:32:49.192 --> 00:32:50.692
Yes, the timing is just.
00:32:50.692 --> 00:32:52.026
Hey, look, the.
00:32:52.026 --> 00:32:53.992
The champagne will rain down from the heavens.
00:32:53.992 --> 00:32:54.793
The angels will.
00:32:54.793 --> 00:32:55.360
Ha.
00:32:55.360 --> 00:32:55.893
Yes.
00:32:55.893 --> 00:32:56.925
And everything will be good.
00:32:56.925 --> 00:32:57.860
Yeah.
00:32:57.860 --> 00:32:59.526
What can I ask you?
00:32:59.526 --> 00:33:00.660
I'll ask you this question.
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:01.526
Oh, okay.
00:33:01.526 --> 00:33:01.860
Go ahead.
00:33:01.860 --> 00:33:02.093
Okay.
00:33:02.093 --> 00:33:02.759
What's the red flag?
00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:04.759
That a manager is actually a culture killer.
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:05.393
Grumpiness.
00:33:05.393 --> 00:33:06.893
Know when?
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.326
Okay, it actually is.
00:33:10.326 --> 00:33:15.526
Because you'll see their team perform, but they're they do it begrudgingly.
00:33:15.526 --> 00:33:17.460
Um, you'll see the high turnover.
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:19.660
You'll see the like I said, the look.
00:33:19.660 --> 00:33:20.660
How's things going?
00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:21.125
Fine.
00:33:21.125 --> 00:33:21.893
Okay.
00:33:21.893 --> 00:33:22.893
Mhm.
00:33:22.893 --> 00:33:24.293
Um, you just achieved this?
00:33:24.293 --> 00:33:24.593
Yeah.
00:33:24.593 --> 00:33:25.192
We did.
00:33:25.192 --> 00:33:26.759
Right, right, right.
00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:27.393
How's your week?
00:33:27.393 --> 00:33:28.492
Uh. It's Thursday.
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:31.960
Um, that's the answers.
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:36.925
When you start hearing those answers, you got to knock on that manager's door and have that conversation.
00:33:36.925 --> 00:33:37.460
Yeah.
00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:39.992
Um, definitely, definitely a big one.
00:33:39.992 --> 00:33:52.460
Uh, what, uh, what is the one thing that you think people miss the most when leading leaders to lead themselves first?
00:33:52.460 --> 00:33:53.925
Makes sense.
00:33:53.925 --> 00:33:54.726
That makes so much sense.
00:33:54.726 --> 00:34:02.393
If there is nothing you take away from the Business Fix podcast, it should be that you need to develop yourself and you need to develop your SOPs.
00:34:02.393 --> 00:34:04.192
I'd say that we've probably talked about that.
00:34:04.192 --> 00:34:05.559
The most out of all the things.
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:06.526
Is that the theme?
00:34:06.526 --> 00:34:13.793
Yeah, it's like, do the stuff, do the thing, do the things for you so that you can do the things and then document the things.
00:34:13.793 --> 00:34:14.460
Yes.
00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:15.393
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:15.393 --> 00:34:19.893
But they don't lead them and they think that they don't need to lead themselves.
00:34:19.893 --> 00:34:21.559
They don't need to to learn more.
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:23.226
They don't need to develop more.
00:34:23.226 --> 00:34:23.559
Yeah.
00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:25.793
They don't need to grow anymore.
00:34:25.793 --> 00:34:29.025
I noticed something this is episode forty eight.
00:34:29.025 --> 00:34:29.893
Is it really?
00:34:29.893 --> 00:34:30.692
Yeah.
00:34:30.692 --> 00:34:31.759
Wow.
00:34:31.759 --> 00:34:36.393
Um, first off, congratulations on keeping what little of your sanity you have left at the end of this.
00:34:36.393 --> 00:34:37.692
I love this, it's fun.
00:34:37.692 --> 00:34:38.525
No, it truly is.
00:34:38.525 --> 00:34:39.226
It truly is.
00:34:39.226 --> 00:34:42.460
Um, that being said, we're coming up on episode fifty rapidly.
00:34:42.460 --> 00:34:42.960
Yes.
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.726
We're thinking about doing an HR nightmares episode.
00:34:46.726 --> 00:34:47.226
Yes.
00:34:47.226 --> 00:34:52.460
Um, to me, I think like I have some stories that I've been involved in.
00:34:52.460 --> 00:34:56.525
Um, we've had a couple of people submit some stories that we've reached out to.
00:34:56.525 --> 00:34:59.860
I would love to hear your HR nightmares.
00:34:59.860 --> 00:35:02.125
Um, I know Krissy would too.
00:35:02.125 --> 00:35:02.925
Sure, Krissy.
00:35:02.925 --> 00:35:04.092
Here's them every week.
00:35:04.092 --> 00:35:05.925
So she's probably going to be like, I heard that story.
00:35:05.925 --> 00:35:06.559
That's not bad.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:08.525
Uh. It's nothing.
00:35:08.525 --> 00:35:10.525
We would still love to hear it.
00:35:10.525 --> 00:35:19.125
I've got a great one about, uh, someone that got fired, um, for their disability by an HR manager.
00:35:19.125 --> 00:35:22.225
Oh, no, that sounds expensive.
00:35:22.225 --> 00:35:25.925
They were the HR VP, and they got fired by the head of HR.
00:35:25.925 --> 00:35:27.392
Oh, that sounds really expensive.
00:35:27.392 --> 00:35:28.492
That's a great story.
00:35:28.492 --> 00:35:30.525
That being said, do us a favor.
00:35:30.525 --> 00:35:31.325
Take care of yourself.
00:35:31.325 --> 00:35:32.992
If you can't take care of someone else too.
00:35:32.992 --> 00:35:36.092
We will see you very, very soon.