Ian's Story: The Perils of Leadership

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Thank you.
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Welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett.
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Ian Wilkes is traveling right now.
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He's back in the United Kingdom in his old stomping grounds.
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We're actually going to record a couple of podcasts while he's over there.
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But we had anticipated giving you more of Ian's story.
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But what's interesting is as I've listened to this episode, which is a continuation of his story, we cut off essentially at the end of Ian's mission And he quickly returns home and goes and becomes a bishop in Scotland.
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And what's interesting to me is that when we talked about this, because we recorded Ian's story before we recorded any other podcast episodes.
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We just sort of, I sat down with him and said, just tell me your whole story.
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And I think we've got hours and hours of this.
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But listening to this, it's amazing to me how many of these stories we've touched on in our subsequent podcasts that we felt they were important enough that we revisited them.
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So if you listen to these, for instance, I tell a story about my interaction with Hiram Smith.
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Ian talks about the idea that the church, The church doesn't forgive, or at least the Lord forgives, but the church computer doesn't.
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We did a whole episode on that.
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So these are actually telling some of the same stories, but from a slightly different perspective, and I think in the context of Ian's own story.
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So I just wanted to give you that heads up as we go forward here, and we will dive right in, and Ian will continue and pick up his story where he left off.
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So I think the church, I think the culture Just going back, just a quick memory here.
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I remember the state I went from, went to my mission in England, where I went from to Scotland.
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And there was one mission that came on early and his bishop made him stand up in front of the ward and admit or reveal to the ward that he'd been sent home early and he'd made a mistake.
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He didn't go into detail and he needed to repent and go back out.
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I mean, I wasn't there, but I know people that were.
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It was in my stake and I found that extraordinary.
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It's extremely damaging and affects people for the rest of the rest of their lives.
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So I think that the church culture This thing that if you come on early, you're a failure.
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And also, the thing that really angers me and frustrates me with the church, and again, having been a leader in the church, I've seen this firsthand.
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And there's a ridiculous comment that I heard at times by leaders even more senior than me at that time and different leaders where jokes made, like pathetic jokes, like, God will forgive, but the church computer remembers, right?
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So when there's a disciplinary meeting or a missionary comes back and there's been an issue or comes back on early, the church policy, having been involved in this and been familiar with this quite intimately, there is a process of annotating someone's records, right?
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And so there's actually some value if you annotate someone's records that's been a perpetrator or an aggressor in the church towards children or individuals or domestic violence.
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I think it's important to annotate those records.
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I think it's important that the church leadership are aware that there are people in the stake or the ward that do...
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pose a risk or a threat to people, you know, wives, domestic abuse, and being on the state presence.
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Is that a failure?
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Absolutely, and acting on behalf of the state president and the general authorities.
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I remember having a conversation with Elder Oaks, who set me apart from the state presidency, about, you know, things like this, annotating records, what we can and what we can't do, etc.
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But unfortunately, I've seen too often examples where missions have come home, and that's been mentioned or referenced in the records, And that never forgets, that system never forgets.
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And so bishop gets released, person's been in the ward doing extremely well, came home early or whatever.
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Five years later, this record is still on the computer and the new bishop or new leaders weren't aware of it and became aware of it.
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And that affects influences of discussions.
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I've been in those discussions where as a bishop, I was called as a bishop and the new counselors who had been in the ward a very long time, went through what seemed like the entire ward of why I couldn't call certain people because of this and because of that.
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The members were extraordinary.
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It was written down diligently on the computer.
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And they said, Bishop, if you want to know about so-and-so, you know, go onto the church computer, the MLS there, and all the details are on there about this person and what sins they've committed and, you know, extraordinary detail there.
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Too much detail.
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So when I confess any sin, is there a permanent record of that?
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It depends where it is.
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If it's a transgression, if it's criminal-related, likely, yes.
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And I think it's important.
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There's some value.
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I think I said this earlier.
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There's some important value to identify aggressors and perpetrators of serious crimes, et cetera, and people who...
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abuses.
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I think it's important that church leaders know who those people are, for sure.
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If he's a
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criminal...
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If I'm a teenager and I go in and I tell my bishop that I've masturbated, does he make a record of that?
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He should not make a record of that, no.
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There's no policy that I'm aware of where the bishop is advised or instructed to make a record of that.
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However, that said, bishops do that.
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They do that.
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And they sometimes input or maintain information on people, which is incredibly personal and confidential and unnecessary.
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If it's criminal related, if there's a domestic abuse or a child abuse situation, and we have laws now, like in Scotland, I think Scotland was the first region across the world, or one of them, to introduce a new law called Disclosure Scotland, and you had to do a police background check.
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All All charities, businesses, faiths in Scotland, going back to, I think it was back in 2000, I think it was, or 99 when I was called Bishop or thereabouts, you had to do a background check on people who were going to work with children.
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This is zero, right, in that country up to the age of 16, which is when they're an adult.
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So up to 16, if an individual had children, a history of criminality towards children, and that had been identified and was on the records.
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Church leaders had to do a background check on the individual before they called them to a position to work with children.
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I think that practice, that law now is being expanded across the world in certain places.
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I don't think it's everywhere, but I think it's important.
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And I'm not sure if it's in the US.
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It is here in Canada.
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You have to do it.
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a police background check if you're a faith or a church, et cetera.
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And I think that's really important to know, understand, and capture that information for sure.
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But the stuff that you're talking about, you know, if someone's looking at pornography or, you know, the masturbating or, you know, they've done some minor transgression, absolutely no.
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But some leaders do, and that stays on the...
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on the computer.
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And so when you've got a mystery coming home early, and I repeat, it's part of the culture, this judgment, you have to be perfect.
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You have to get everything right.
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You've got to live with exactness, as President Dunne reminded us all the time.
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You can't deviate.
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There's no room for slippage.
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You can't slip.
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If you do, you must get back on track.
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You've got to read Miracle Forgiveness like we were told to back in Scotland.
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I read that and it was brutal, a very difficult book to read and understand.
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And so, you know, you have to live with perfection.
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We're told and commanded to be perfect.
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The scriptures are replete with references to living with perfection.
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Reminded, I've lost count how many talks from general authorities that, you know, be therefore perfect, etc.
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We're told that even if you're not, we have unconditional love.
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And then we're told that, well, God's love is absolutely conditional, depends on your obedience, etc.
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You know, who is perfect?
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No one is perfect, right?
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who hasn't fallen and who hasn't transgressed, etc.
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Why should we retain all that personal private information on a computer that never forgets?
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You know, this ridiculous joke that I would shoot down very quickly and very bluntly when people would joke, oh, the computer never forgets.
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I remind them quietly, privately to the side there that that is a terrible thing to think and to say and to joke about.
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You know, where's the second chance?
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You know, where's the forgiveness?
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Where's the love and the kindness and compassion?
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There was a public figure.
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So, I mean, I'm comfortable using his name to tell the story.
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His name was Hiram Smith.
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He was a descendant of Hiram Smith, and he was my father's employer at Franklin Covey.
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He was a wealthy benefactor who built the Tuacon Amphitheater in southern Utah.
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And He would give firesides all over the place.
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He was very, very prominent.
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He first cousin of Elder Ballard.
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And he served his mission.
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He was a missionary companion of Jeff Holland.
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And Jeff Holland at one point gave a talk about adultery in conference.
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And at the time, Hiram Smith was in the midst of an eight-year affair with a woman who was not his wife.
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And he said that that talk by Elder Holland hit him like a ton of bricks.
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And he went and confessed to his bishop this affair.
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His bishop was also his son-in-law.
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And they got the ball rolling and he was excommunicated.
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And the excommunication was made public.
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It was actually in the newspaper.
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They talked about Hiram Smith being excommunicated, which I think is probably wildly inappropriate.
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And he would speak about it publicly very often and talk about the difficulties that had caused him and all that kind of thing.
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But I remember having a conversation with him.
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And he said that Elder Ballard at one point was telling him to prepare his life to be able to get ready for the call to go to Salt Lake City and be a general authority.
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And then obviously that wasn't going to happen.
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And in fact, at Jaron Hinckley's wedding, a mutual friend of ours who was a, President Banks came to me and he said, how's Hiram Smith doing?
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And I spoke in very general terms and he said, no, you don't understand Hiram Smith was the subject of our Thursday meeting last week for the entire meeting.
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By this point, President Banks was a general authority.
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And he said, so I know very well what's going on.
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Hiram Smith had to be removed from the board at BYU.
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I mean, it was just a huge, huge scandal.
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Anyway, so in my conversation with Hiram later on, after he had been rebaptized, that he was rebaptized, He said that Elder Ballard had said to him, now you have to prepare your life to figure out how you are going to serve the Lord because you will never hold another leadership calling ever again.
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And Hiram said, I don't understand.
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If I've repented and I've been forgiven, why does the punishment continue?
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And Elder Ballard said to him, and this is a direct quote, um, No, he says, if the Lord has forgiven me, why does the punishment continue?
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And Elder Ballard said, oh, the Lord forgives.
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It's the church that doesn't forgive.
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And I mean, that wasn't a joke.
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You know, your joke is the computer always remembers.
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Elder Ballard said specifically, no, the church does not forgive.
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No, if you've made this kind of an error, you will never hold another leadership calling ever again.
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You are completely derailed from any kind of significant participation in the church.
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And I don't understand how that jibes with anything that we're taught by the Savior about the process of repentance, the scriptures that talk about, I, the Lord, will remember your sins no more.
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So if the Lord forgets it, but the church remembers it, how is this the Lord's church?
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That disconnect is just far too glaring to not be called out.
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I've wrestled over this, and just two points briefly on this.
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I've seen and had to deal with situations where this personal information that is captured, retained on the computer, comes into ward council so this is personal private information either bishopric or the state presidency or local leadership is reviewing somebody for a calling and information on that is known about this individual or certainly captured on the computer comes into that conversation and and at times um the decision not to pursue this person for a particular calling is um is made to the detriment of the individual who repented and groaned and received forgiveness from the Lord but the ward council or the bishopric based on this past information which is not updated by the way they just put in what happened and why it happened and And sometimes they put a recommendation not to review this person for a calling for so many years, which is extraordinary.
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Often they don't know all the facts.
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And so people's lives are impacted directly and are overlooked for callings.
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The second point I would make is, I listened to what you're saying as to why Elder Ballard would say something like that.
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It reminds me of the interview that I had with Elder Oaks when I was called on to the state presidency.
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This is going back a few years now.
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And I shared this with you earlier, but you get interviewed privately.
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Elder Cook was in the room.
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He was his junior companion at the time.
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There's me, Elder Oaks, Elder Cook.
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Elder Oaks was leading the interview.
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And the very first question was, aside from introducing myself, and I'd met Elder Oaks before in Scotland, so we weren't strangers.
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And he remembered me from Scotland.
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But the first question he asked for me is, is there anything in my past You know, I've been considered for a calling either as a state president or a state presidency, member of the state presidency.
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And was there anything in my past that could be interpreted as being or having a negative impact on the church's good name?
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Or could it hurt or harm?
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I think that was his words.
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Could anything I've done in the past come to light that would cause hurt or harm to the church's name?
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I think that was the question.
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That was the very first question I was asked.
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And I think that is a very important and a very significant question because the church, for lots of reasons that we could think of now and certainly with the way things have gone with the church and a lot of the narrative hasn't gone in the favor of the church with online discussions and thousands of podcasts and all the issues that we see now with seemingly most aspects of the church.
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The concern for self-preservation protect the institute, protect the name, protect the brand.
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If you look at all these corporations, what they do, these large corporations who have got significant financial muscle, media, marketing power, thinking of some of the large conglomerates who are pretty successful often at protecting their brand.
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The church has a brand, it's got a name, it's got a brand, and it's trying to mitigate the challenges and the risks that are impacting the brand.
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I don't think it's doing a very good job.
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I think often it actually does more harm to itself, frankly, than often the outside world does.
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I think some of the decisions and direction the leaders take do more harm than some of the so-called anti-Mormon do to the church, frankly.
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But this question was significant in that it speaks to the church's desperation to protect its name, protect its brand, and to distance itself from any activity or behavior that could be harmful or hurt the name of the church.
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The difference, I think, with a corporation and being a member of the church is that you see these statements on these websites and these companies that the employee opinion does not reflect the opinion of the company.
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We see that in contracts, in documents.
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And I understand that.
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And I think most people understand if an employee gives an opinion on something, either personal or private or whatever, that the company doesn't share that opinion.
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And I think people accept that.
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I think the difference with the church is that because we're dealing with people's personal lives and their lives are completely and entirely interwoven with church, which behaves like a corporation often, but in other aspects isn't.
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It's a way of life.
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It's a It's a cause, it's an organization that impacts every aspect and influences every aspect of the member's life, etc.
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You know, those members' lives, those people, they make mistakes and they do things and they commit crimes and they do all kinds of terrible things.
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And when they come to light, because it's a very personal religion, you know, personal life and it's a very way of life, that behavior, those actions, when they're very serious, of course, they have an effect on the name of the church.
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And so the church just tries to have it both ways.
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You know, if someone makes a mistake, they distance itself from the church members' activity and behavior and say they're no longer the church and you'll never have another calling again.
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And I've lost count how many times that's happened when it's coming to the conversation.
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And I was a second chance kind of bishop.
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you know i kind of shut those things down as a bishop and as a state president where it was appropriate i gave people a chance but the church will not and can't afford to do that uh because it's it's developed a brand and so um it has to protect the brand at all times protect the leadership protect the brand protect the financial uh value of the church a lot of it's financially driven in my opinion And it wants the best of both worlds.
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And if you make a mistake, it will distance itself from you and throw you out as it's done with me and basically ostracize people who have nothing to do with it and will never get a chance again.
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And I see that too often.
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I mean, it didn't throw me out.
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I left on my own accord, but it certainly has distanced itself from me since I've left the church.
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But back to you.
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Well, this actually raises a contemporaneous issue with what's happening right now with regard to the shooting in Colorado.
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Has that made its way to Canada?
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Yes, it has, yes.
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So it's been confirmed and the church has confirmed that the shooter was on the records of the church, was on the rolls.
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The church made it very clear he hasn't attended church in quite some time, which is really...
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kind of a wild thing to say because the church likes to tout its membership numbers and it includes everybody whose name is still on the records whether or not they've set foot in a in a chapel in 50 years they'll still count you as long as it gives them sort of credibility in terms of sheer numbers but when you do something terrible like this The church is very, very quick to say, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
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He hasn't been to church in so long that this really doesn't count.
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But your talk about the brand and tarnishing the brand, the thing that everybody is talking about, and rightly so, is the fact that, okay, this guy is targeting LGBTQ people, and he's doing so in the aftermath of a very high-profile speech that Elder Holland gave at BYU where he talked about the idea of BYU being launching musket fire against those who would tear down the church's position on marriage only being between a man and a woman.
00:22:45.355 --> 00:23:03.026
And that analogy of musket fire is one that Elder Holland used, but he also was quoting Elder Oates, now President Oates, who had used it previously, he said, I'd like to hear a little more musket fire from these temples of learning in defense of this doctrine.
00:23:03.747 --> 00:23:07.471
Well, here you have somebody that took up arms and murdered people.
00:23:08.573 --> 00:23:16.041
And now you have defenders of the church who look at that and say, oh, he was clearly talking metaphorically.
00:23:16.082 --> 00:23:18.605
How dare you make any kind of linkage and how dare...
00:23:19.145 --> 00:23:22.390
And the reality is the poisonous nature...
00:23:23.586 --> 00:23:29.214
of what is taught about LGBTQ people.
00:23:30.616 --> 00:23:32.820
You know, you talked about reading The Miracle of Forgiveness.
00:23:32.881 --> 00:23:35.545
The church no longer publishes The Miracle of Forgiveness.
00:23:35.605 --> 00:23:41.714
The church is quietly trying to get rid of a lot of those things because the stuff that's in there is horrific.
00:23:43.258 --> 00:23:48.185
Elder Kimball, then Elder Kimball, when he wrote the book, he became President Kimball.
00:23:49.106 --> 00:23:49.949
He talks about...
00:23:51.170 --> 00:23:56.496
Gay people, when he talks about, you know, he says this is, he calls gay people perverts.
00:23:56.736 --> 00:23:57.897
That's the word he uses.
00:23:58.999 --> 00:24:02.903
And they're perverts with a curable condition.
00:24:03.003 --> 00:24:05.385
That is also a word he uses.
00:24:05.405 --> 00:24:13.516
And then he says there are those who say that they can't change and, you know, the door won't open to change.
00:24:13.556 --> 00:24:15.337
Well, how can you know that unless...
00:24:15.842 --> 00:24:21.373
You pound it on the door until your muscles are sore and your arms are bloody.
00:24:21.413 --> 00:24:38.786
And I think how many people in the church have looked at that and taken that counsel and pounded on that door and are left with bloody stumps and also left with the fact that they continue to have the sexuality they had since the day they were born.
00:24:39.298 --> 00:24:43.541
and that doesn't change, it's not a disease, it's not a curable condition.
00:24:44.042 --> 00:24:52.490
I mean, the things that we teach create an environment where I'm surprised something like this hasn't happened before this.
00:24:53.653 --> 00:25:05.805
And to defend, okay, yeah, using musket fire as an analogy, that's entirely appropriate and that has nothing to do with somebody who takes up arms and murders LGBTQ people.
00:25:07.329 --> 00:25:17.226
I think this needs to be a wake-up call rather than the idea that the church continually tries to sort of brandish its reputation.
00:25:18.488 --> 00:25:34.972
We're doing a terrible job because we're not confronting the extremism and the hatred and the violent rhetoric that you see church members use.
00:25:35.521 --> 00:25:37.565
You see it online all the time.
00:25:37.585 --> 00:25:51.226
There is a huge contingent of people on social media, on Twitter, who use hashtags like Desnat, which means Deseret Nationalism, that the church needs to be a theocracy and take over the government.
00:25:52.587 --> 00:25:56.733
And it's tied in with racism and all these kinds of things.
00:25:57.476 --> 00:25:58.758
We need to confront them.
00:25:58.817 --> 00:25:59.919
We need to address them.
00:25:59.979 --> 00:26:01.882
We need to be held accountable for them.
00:26:02.943 --> 00:26:04.226
And we need to repent of them.
00:26:04.769 --> 00:26:08.374
And we can't do that if we're not willing to acknowledge them.
00:26:09.296 --> 00:26:15.864
You know, President Oaks has said it is not the church's policy to accept apologies or to give them.
00:26:15.903 --> 00:26:24.173
And, you know, we're taught that repentance requires us to make restitution, requires us to admit when we've been wrong.
00:26:25.194 --> 00:26:27.657
That same principle has to apply to the church.
00:26:28.679 --> 00:26:30.942
And the church refuses to accept it.
00:26:31.061 --> 00:26:33.945
The church refuses to accept the idea that an apology...
00:26:34.465 --> 00:26:53.278
is ever appropriate let alone necessary anyway that's my rant but but no we're talking about this in the shadow of a horrific murderous event uh that uh the church that needs to be a wake-up call for the church as a whole
00:26:55.423 --> 00:26:58.429
you're right i as you know i served with matt holland
00:26:58.970 --> 00:26:59.009
um
00:26:59.746 --> 00:27:00.606
in Scotland.
00:27:00.707 --> 00:27:03.931
We worked together in Edinburgh.
00:27:05.112 --> 00:27:05.792
Great guy.
00:27:06.513 --> 00:27:13.481
Met other Holland afterwards several times here in Canada, in the UK.
00:27:14.564 --> 00:27:15.664
Don't know him super well.
00:27:15.904 --> 00:27:19.430
Heard his talks, had some conversations with him, quite fiery.
00:27:20.211 --> 00:27:53.587
And I don't know why church leaders don't understand or are unable to see the relationship between what they say and the type of language, often militant language, with some individuals who, on certain very motive issues and topics, the certain use of language is extremely dangerous and destructive and actually influences directly people's thinking and behavior.
00:27:55.490 --> 00:28:03.952
We're told from these speakers to follow the prophet, follow the speakers, follow the advice.
00:28:05.096 --> 00:28:06.419
The talks are screened.
00:28:06.439 --> 00:28:06.901
They're better.
00:28:06.941 --> 00:28:08.505
They didn't used to be, but they're better now.
00:28:09.057 --> 00:28:14.685
And we're instructed to follow the direction.
00:28:15.125 --> 00:28:26.342
And when we use militant language like that, it shouldn't be a surprise to some that that results in this kind of terrible actions that take people's lives, innocent lives.
00:28:28.003 --> 00:28:34.773
There's so much of the church doctrine and culture and policies which I and others see extremely destructive.
00:28:35.298 --> 00:28:54.076
And the church leadership seems to fail to understand the relationship between the doctrines, the policies, and behavior, especially on things like LGBTQ and gay rights, which I think has now become a civil rights movement.
00:28:54.636 --> 00:28:57.380
The church is changing its position, I believe, on that.
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:08.692
But I think when you've got leaders that are traditional, conventional leaders old school thinking type leaders like Elder Oaks, Elder Holland to some extent.
00:29:09.653 --> 00:29:14.320
These policies and principles are not going to change while these individuals are still in leadership.
00:29:15.363 --> 00:29:16.284
They won't change.
00:29:16.344 --> 00:29:17.125
They can't change.
00:29:17.546 --> 00:29:19.709
You know, I spent a weekend with Elder Oaks.
00:29:19.950 --> 00:29:22.432
We had dinner together as a state presidency.
00:29:22.512 --> 00:29:25.577
We spent some time together being trained on the state presidency.
00:29:26.118 --> 00:29:30.605
You know, his views on these things are entrenched and immovable.
00:29:31.137 --> 00:29:34.041
And I don't believe that he will change.
00:29:34.603 --> 00:29:35.384
I don't think that will happen.
00:29:35.443 --> 00:29:55.032
I think he needed a whole new period of different leadership, a different approach, going away from that old-fashioned, archaic, antiquated leadership approach and style to implementing and executing these policies and principles.
00:29:55.586 --> 00:30:07.461
And so I don't think things are going to change in the near future, but I think going forward, depending on the prophet and the leaders, I do see certainly an opportunity to change.
00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:20.218
I think with the right leadership, inclusion and more understanding, more compassion, I see an opportunity for the church to, if you like, rebrand itself to be more accepting and more loving.
00:30:20.878 --> 00:30:23.261
Well, no, you are seeing...
00:30:23.746 --> 00:30:49.459
See, this is the thing that's so paradoxical about this, is because when we talk particularly about LGBTQ issues, the thing that people who are defending the church do so often is dig their heels in and insist the proclamation on the family makes it very, very clear where we stand, and this is eternal doctrine, and it will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever change.
00:30:50.859 --> 00:31:02.717
And When you start saying something will never change with that kind of vociferous repetition and vigor, I get suspicious.
00:31:03.657 --> 00:31:12.448
Because if something is never, ever going to change, it doesn't require us to continually reiterate that it's never going to change.
00:31:13.008 --> 00:31:18.094
The church, for instance, is never, ever going to give up baptism by immersion.
00:31:18.945 --> 00:31:21.327
I am very, very confident that that is the case.
00:31:21.428 --> 00:31:23.770
We are never going to change in that regard.
00:31:24.391 --> 00:31:39.244
You never hear a conference talk by a leader of the church saying, oh, we're never going to give up baptism by immersion because everybody recognizes that this is immovable, that this is something that is a core doctrine of the church, and it's never going to change.
00:31:40.086 --> 00:31:52.058
The repeated insistence that our doctrine about LGBTQ people and about marriage is never, ever going to change rings very hollow with me every time it is repeated.
00:31:53.059 --> 00:32:04.276
And it ignores the fact that our doctrine and our teaching on that subject has changed radically in just the last few years.
00:32:05.217 --> 00:32:16.813
Just a few days ago of this recording, the church came out in favor of the Respect for Marriage Act, which codifies same-sex marriage legally throughout the United States.
00:32:17.698 --> 00:32:23.484
You're telling me that's not a change from 2008 when the church was backing Proposition 8 in California?
00:32:24.125 --> 00:32:25.185
Of course it's a change.
00:32:25.987 --> 00:32:32.815
But you go through all of these gyrations and say, well, no, it's not really a change, and the doctrine hasn't changed, we're just doing this.
00:32:33.715 --> 00:32:41.384
And it's like, okay, everything that I was taught about homosexuality when I was a teenager has changed.
00:32:42.105 --> 00:32:42.945
Every single thing.
00:32:43.606 --> 00:32:45.829
I was taught that homosexuality is a choice.
00:32:46.625 --> 00:32:51.691
That just being homosexual, being gay, is evil.
00:32:52.952 --> 00:33:01.601
Whether or not you act on it, if you are gay, you shouldn't go to BYU, you shouldn't go on a mission, you shouldn't do anything because you're going to infect people.
00:33:01.681 --> 00:33:04.724
There's just something evil and wrong about your very nature.
00:33:05.645 --> 00:33:09.209
The miracle of forgiveness gets into that quite a bit.
00:33:10.570 --> 00:33:13.133
I was taught that it...
00:33:14.114 --> 00:33:20.845
absolutely can and must change, that you should go ahead and marry a woman if you are gay.
00:33:20.865 --> 00:33:25.251
I mean, all of those things are things the church now actively repudiates.
00:33:26.753 --> 00:33:32.083
You know, I was aware of people that had gone through conversion therapy at the instruction of the church.
00:33:32.143 --> 00:33:34.767
The church now actively repudiates conversion therapy.
00:33:35.067 --> 00:33:38.874
The church has changed drastically on this issue.
00:33:39.586 --> 00:33:45.011
And it has done so without ever admitting that it has changed and insisting that it will never change.
00:33:45.593 --> 00:33:52.259
And so when people tell me, okay, well, this is never going to change, I'm saying, so all those changes don't count?
00:33:52.460 --> 00:33:54.021
All those aren't really changes.
00:33:54.623 --> 00:33:55.864
Yes, they really are.
00:33:56.444 --> 00:34:06.015
So what you're telling me is that a church that is built on the principle of continuing revelation is never going to change.
00:34:06.915 --> 00:34:08.077
So what is the point...
00:34:08.481 --> 00:34:09.884
of continuing revelation.
00:34:10.565 --> 00:34:14.532
What, the Lord isn't allowed to say anything that changes anything that's happened before?
00:34:14.572 --> 00:34:17.538
Then we don't need continuing revelation.
00:34:17.597 --> 00:34:29.097
Why don't we just become Protestants and be done with it and just say the canon is closed, we've got everything we need, a Bible, a Bible, there can be no more Bible, there can be no more revelation, we're done.
00:34:29.954 --> 00:34:43.509
It's infuriating and frustrating to me, and the musket fire talk particularly was frustrating for me because I have always adored Elder Holland.
00:34:44.289 --> 00:34:46.771
I didn't know Matt Holland as well as you did probably.
00:34:46.831 --> 00:34:53.800
He was the AP when I got out on my mission, and I didn't have a lot of interaction with him on my mission.
00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:59.306
I saw him years after my mission, and the first thing he said to me was, Wow, Jim, you've...
00:34:59.713 --> 00:35:00.815
You've really filled out.
00:35:01.876 --> 00:35:03.119
In other words, I was really fat.
00:35:03.398 --> 00:35:07.985
Oh, but in a good way, is what he said, because he realized that was probably not an appropriate thing to say.
00:35:09.286 --> 00:35:18.619
But I've interacted with him a little bit since my mission, but I've interacted with Elder Holland Sr., with Jeff Holland a few times, one-on-one.
00:35:18.659 --> 00:35:28.532
He's from Enterprise, Utah, which was near Tuakon, where I worked in southern Utah, and he came to a few events we had there, and I've talked to him on a few occasions.
00:35:29.442 --> 00:35:39.838
But the compassion I always felt from Elder Holland in his conference talks was always striking to me and always powerful to me.
00:35:39.858 --> 00:35:55.362
And I had reached a point where I thought, okay, all of these LGBTQ issues, we're going to find more inclusive answers to them when Jeff Holland becomes president of the church.
00:35:56.130 --> 00:36:00.815
And I'm sort of treading water and waiting for Jeff Holland to become president of the church.
00:36:01.697 --> 00:36:03.518
And then I hear his musket fire talk.
00:36:04.579 --> 00:36:05.440
And it broke my heart.
00:36:06.382 --> 00:36:07.563
It just broke my heart.
00:36:08.864 --> 00:36:20.159
Because it wasn't just that we're never going to change, but that talk was so deliberately cruel in ways that were completely unnecessary.
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:33.032
There was a BYU valedictorian named Matt Easton who, in his talk, came out as a gay child of God.
00:36:34.193 --> 00:36:37.677
And the talk had been submitted to leadership beforehand.
00:36:37.697 --> 00:36:39.701
He didn't surprise anybody.
00:36:39.740 --> 00:36:44.905
That was the entirety of the mention of being LGBTQ.
00:36:44.925 --> 00:36:49.731
He just proudly proclaimed that he was a gay child of God.
00:36:49.771 --> 00:36:51.653
And Elder Holland...
00:36:52.418 --> 00:37:06.454
in his musket fire talk just went and punched down on this guy as hard as he could and that he'd commandeered a graduation ceremony and how terrible it was and he shouldn't have mentioned that and all of this kind of stuff.
00:37:06.474 --> 00:37:07.815
And it's like, that's unnecessary.
00:37:07.835 --> 00:37:08.976
You didn't need to do that.
00:37:09.617 --> 00:37:16.125
Even if you want to reiterate the doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman, you don't need to be cruel to Matt Easton as an apostle.
00:37:16.204 --> 00:37:17.626
You're punching down.
00:37:18.507 --> 00:37:20.570
We don't need to punch down in this church.
00:37:21.217 --> 00:37:26.282
And so, yeah, that talk just broke my heart because I thought, okay, Matt Holland isn't the guy.
00:37:26.302 --> 00:37:32.809
And maybe there isn't a guy, at least in current church leaders.
00:37:33.389 --> 00:37:48.465
You know, Elder Gong, who, I don't know if you know Elder Gong, when he was a 70, when my father was on his deathbed, Elder Gong was the area president in the area where my father lived in the eastern United States.
00:37:49.217 --> 00:37:56.108
And he came and spent a great deal of time with our family as we sort of stood vigil with my father as he was dying.
00:37:56.989 --> 00:38:05.262
And he, you know, from my personal experience, he is a kind and gentle pastoral sort of man.
00:38:05.302 --> 00:38:07.324
And he has a gay son.
00:38:08.626 --> 00:38:13.635
And at one point, he went to dinner with his son and his partner.
00:38:13.675 --> 00:38:16.498
And they took a picture at the dinner table.
00:38:17.179 --> 00:38:18.141
His son, Matthew...
00:38:18.786 --> 00:38:26.998
posted on social media that after they took the picture, his father said to him, now, don't post this anywhere.
00:38:27.197 --> 00:38:28.338
You're not going to post this anywhere.
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.202
I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea.
00:38:31.222 --> 00:38:34.547
And his son said, what wrong idea?
00:38:34.608 --> 00:38:36.010
That you had dinner with your son?
00:38:36.030 --> 00:38:47.326
And Matt Gong said in that post, when he posted the picture, he said, those of you who are waiting for my father to be that guy...
00:38:47.650 --> 00:38:48.871
He is not that guy.
00:38:50.032 --> 00:39:01.485
So church leadership right now, there is a groupthink and there is an unwillingness to even consider the possibility of greater inclusion.
00:39:02.385 --> 00:39:09.574
And yet we continually get backed into positions that the church clearly doesn't want to take.
00:39:09.673 --> 00:39:16.882
The church would never, ever take this position about codifying the legality of same-sex marriage civilly.
00:39:17.186 --> 00:39:21.972
in the United States if we hadn't been backed into it, if we hadn't been forced into it.
00:39:22.532 --> 00:39:29.101
And I find us continuing to defend a shrinking piece of ground on this particular issue.
00:39:29.702 --> 00:39:32.326
We continue to give up ground because we have to.
00:39:32.365 --> 00:39:45.264
And I would like to see us embrace positive and constructive change rather than just grudgingly accept it, which is how we seem to be going.
00:39:46.364 --> 00:39:48.853
Anyway, I derailed all this, and
00:39:49.012 --> 00:39:49.833
we're supposed to be talking.
00:39:50.074 --> 00:39:51.197
No, it's not at all.
00:39:51.297 --> 00:39:51.777
Not at all.
00:39:51.858 --> 00:39:53.340
I think these are really important.
00:39:53.360 --> 00:40:10.849
We said when we were doing this, having this conversation, looking at this podcast, that we would share our stories, our experiences, and inevitably, and very early on, very quickly, we would get into all kinds of topics and issues that have impacted and affected our lives in all kinds of ways, right?
00:40:10.949 --> 00:40:13.052
And this is a really good...
00:40:13.601 --> 00:40:20.092
example of how these issues and the problems with the church and the ability to change.
00:40:21.193 --> 00:40:32.230
Just to put this in context, these changes that have occurred, which the church deny that they're real changes, and they are real changes, there's no question about that.
00:40:32.833 --> 00:40:36.239
come from the fact that it's painted itself into a corner.
00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:41.170
I mean, the church history is replete with leaders that have said, you know, it's this or this, or black or white.
00:40:41.269 --> 00:40:42.132
There's ultimatums.
00:40:42.192 --> 00:40:43.213
We're this or we're not this.
00:40:43.815 --> 00:40:49.525
You know, the thinking back then was black and white, and there's no degree of variance in between.
00:40:49.606 --> 00:40:51.028
We're either this or we're this.
00:40:51.168 --> 00:41:05.016
If you go back, and you know church history more than I do, I've seen Chirp's history, studied it and lived part of it, working with senior leaders and heard the talks and talking about that God never changes.
00:41:05.666 --> 00:41:08.088
They take it literally, and we never change.
00:41:08.108 --> 00:41:10.030
We're all the same today, tomorrow, and forever.
00:41:10.050 --> 00:41:12.192
Always going to be the same, et cetera.
00:41:13.552 --> 00:41:14.893
But God does change.
00:41:16.215 --> 00:41:16.996
There are changes.
00:41:17.036 --> 00:41:20.259
There are all kinds of changes taking place, and some are very, very significant.
00:41:20.619 --> 00:41:27.965
But the church's ability to understand and recognize and be honest and open that things have changed, I think, is a missed opportunity.
00:41:28.545 --> 00:41:32.548
I think good change is good, and I think good change should be embraced.
00:41:33.030 --> 00:42:10.233
And I think I don't share your view about elder holland um strictly or entirely i believe holland could be the person that's going to facilitate change and that talk by the way i don't think that is his opinion there's a reason why i say that i think that talk about the musket fire came from elder oaks um you know i've had a conversation with all the oaks uh privately about um lgbtq issues and where the church the position is years ago and you know his position on that is entrenched and very you know We're going to defend and protect the church and we're not going to let this derail the church, et cetera, et cetera.
00:42:10.715 --> 00:42:19.443
I honestly believe, Jim, that that talk was heavily influenced by Elder Oaks, who was incredibly influenced by Elder Packer.
00:42:20.603 --> 00:42:24.907
You know, relationship with Elder Packer and Elder Oaks goes back is very deep, very intense.
00:42:25.528 --> 00:42:28.092
And Elder Oaks is the child of Elder Packer.
00:42:28.172 --> 00:42:29.012
I know this because.
00:42:29.152 --> 00:42:34.498
Well, except for Elder Oaks also at one point said you can't stage manage a grizzly bear.
00:42:35.393 --> 00:42:36.815
in reference to Elder Packer.
00:42:37.496 --> 00:42:41.400
There was actually some tension between the two of them.
00:42:41.420 --> 00:42:42.240
I don't know about that.
00:42:43.581 --> 00:42:50.969
Well, but just quickly, I've heard a lot of people with regard to the musket fire talk say similar things.
00:42:51.048 --> 00:42:52.449
He was assigned to give the talk.
00:42:53.050 --> 00:42:54.612
He didn't want to give the talk.
00:42:55.954 --> 00:42:58.916
This was Elder Oaks forcing him to give the talk.
00:43:00.038 --> 00:43:04.181
I am not persuaded that that lets Elder Holland off the hook.
00:43:05.378 --> 00:43:11.164
because I don't think Elder Oaks forced him to punch down on Matt Easton.
00:43:12.666 --> 00:43:23.255
There were ways he could have given the talk and still been kind and still framed it in ways that were not nearly as belligerent.
00:43:24.197 --> 00:43:26.760
And what would have happened if he had said no?
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:29.563
Elder Oaks had forced him to give the talk.
00:43:29.663 --> 00:43:32.146
So what, are they going to kick him out of the Quorum of the Twelve?
00:43:33.025 --> 00:43:38.713
He didn't feel strongly enough to say, this talk is so belligerent that I'm not going to give it.
00:43:39.353 --> 00:43:41.175
I'm sorry, Dallin, my friend.
00:43:41.215 --> 00:43:43.998
I'm not comfortable giving this talk.
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:46.422
You're going to have to find somebody else to do that.
00:43:47.402 --> 00:43:48.644
Why couldn't he have done that?
00:43:49.905 --> 00:44:02.661
Behind closed doors, how the Twelve interact with each other, my understanding of how that works is that when the door is closed, the Twelve can get quite heated.
00:44:03.266 --> 00:44:04.666
in terms of their disagreements.
00:44:05.208 --> 00:44:14.956
They have determined that unity, public unity, is critical, and so they never, ever express any more.
00:44:14.976 --> 00:44:17.460
I mean, earlier in church history, they did.
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:20.061
You would see disagreements among the Twelve.
00:44:21.023 --> 00:44:27.670
But today, the Twelve refuse to admit or express any kind of disagreement publicly.
00:44:28.210 --> 00:44:31.994
But behind closed doors, they battle it out as hard as they possibly can.
00:44:32.577 --> 00:45:03.086
And in fact, my brother-in-law works, he was the PR director for the church on the East Coast, and reported directly to Elder Holland, and has had lengthy discussions with Elder Holland about this particular issue, where Elder Holland has told him, yes, we've gone up, down, and sideways, we've had entire meetings where we discuss whether or not the act of of anal sexual intercourse is inherently wicked.
00:45:04.188 --> 00:45:12.416
Because if a married couple engages in that, a man and a woman, there would be no church disciplinary counsel on that.
00:45:12.936 --> 00:45:16.920
So the act itself isn't necessarily inherently wicked.
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:22.547
So, I mean, they are talking about these things.
00:45:22.648 --> 00:45:25.510
They are talking about things that would probably turn our hair white.
00:45:26.592 --> 00:45:28.253
They are aware of the suicides.
00:45:28.802 --> 00:45:31.264
They are aware of all of these kinds of things.
00:45:31.786 --> 00:45:34.570
And they have these heated discussions behind closed doors.
00:45:35.090 --> 00:45:40.958
But publicly, they have determined that the position is Elder Oaks' position.
00:45:42.019 --> 00:45:43.922
And they aren't allowed to deviate from that.
00:45:44.563 --> 00:45:53.695
So my feeling is, okay, yeah, this is probably not reflective entirely of how Jeff Holland feels, and he's being deferential to a senior apostle.
00:45:55.038 --> 00:45:55.818
But so what?
00:45:56.940 --> 00:45:57.762
At some point...
00:45:58.306 --> 00:45:59.527
You have to do something.
00:45:59.648 --> 00:46:00.809
You have to do what's right.
00:46:01.550 --> 00:46:04.552
And punching down on Matt Easton was not the right thing to do.
00:46:04.592 --> 00:46:06.155
It was not a kind thing to do.
00:46:06.195 --> 00:46:07.096
It was not.
00:46:08.458 --> 00:46:10.099
It was entirely inappropriate.
00:46:10.740 --> 00:46:16.648
And I think you're seeing the outcry now where you have a Mormon shooter murdering LGBTQ people.
00:46:16.688 --> 00:46:21.713
And over and over again, people are referencing that musket fire talk.
00:46:22.722 --> 00:46:26.007
And I think they are justified in doing so.
00:46:26.327 --> 00:46:30.273
I think Elder Holland ought to revise and extend his remarks.
00:46:30.393 --> 00:46:33.978
If he's not willing to apologize, at least clarify.
00:46:34.780 --> 00:46:36.302
But I'd like to see him apologize.
00:46:36.443 --> 00:46:38.045
I'd like to see the church apologize.
00:46:38.385 --> 00:46:44.715
I think it would be so much healthier for everybody if the church would be willing to do that.
00:46:46.157 --> 00:46:46.737
Yeah, anyway.
00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:52.126
No, this is just some thoughts in response to your question.
00:46:52.929 --> 00:46:54.512
feelings, of course, there, Jim.
00:46:56.454 --> 00:47:04.543
Elder Oaks is the Packer-style alpha male in the church at the highest level.
00:47:05.143 --> 00:47:07.927
He vets the talks of the apostles.
00:47:08.186 --> 00:47:08.608
He vets...
00:47:10.230 --> 00:47:12.992
I know this from conversations with Elder Cook.
00:47:13.012 --> 00:47:13.574
He vets the...
00:47:14.333 --> 00:47:32.590
When we were setting, reorganizing the stake, Elder Oaks, Elder Cook vetted our, you know, talking points and we were instructed to communicate certain things when we were introducing ourselves as a straight presidency to the 6,000 people in stake who were there at the time.
00:47:33.492 --> 00:47:35.335
And so he's the alpha male.
00:47:35.594 --> 00:47:36.657
He influences the talks.
00:47:36.697 --> 00:47:46.731
He influences certainly topics on LGBTQ, et cetera, and is directly involved in shaping the messaging that goes into those talks in a very significant way.
00:47:47.273 --> 00:47:50.056
And for, he would say, for lots of good reason.
00:47:50.498 --> 00:47:53.262
It doesn't let Elder Holland off the hook.
00:47:53.422 --> 00:47:53.922
Absolutely.
00:47:53.983 --> 00:47:58.327
I think he could have stood up and pushed back for sure.
00:47:58.969 --> 00:47:59.329
He didn't.
00:47:59.851 --> 00:48:03.576
And I think that was a mistake.
00:48:03.596 --> 00:48:11.686
However, knowing what little I do know about Elder Holland, I believe he's a little bit like...
00:48:12.246 --> 00:48:13.929
Are you a Star Wars fan?
00:48:13.989 --> 00:48:15.490
You know Darth Vader?
00:48:16.231 --> 00:48:17.074
So Darth Vader...
00:48:17.505 --> 00:48:21.740
Uh, we, we reminded in the movie there that Darth Vader has some good in him, right?
00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:28.951
He's, he's, um, you know, he's a, he's a, uh, A villain is a villain, but there's some good in him.
00:48:28.990 --> 00:48:29.811
And Luke knows this.
00:48:29.851 --> 00:48:30.773
He can feel the force.
00:48:30.833 --> 00:48:33.137
And I see Elder Holland like that.
00:48:33.257 --> 00:48:34.277
I see good in him.
00:48:34.579 --> 00:48:36.021
He's a great orator.
00:48:36.742 --> 00:48:37.682
He's an extraordinary orator.
00:48:38.043 --> 00:48:40.086
But he's not good enough to be a great orator.
00:48:40.126 --> 00:48:41.909
You have to have substance.
00:48:41.949 --> 00:48:42.570
You have to have...
00:48:43.431 --> 00:48:47.077
You're practicing the principles of kindness and love that Christ taught.
00:48:47.436 --> 00:48:53.184
And you have to be able to understand that how...
00:48:53.985 --> 00:49:01.518
sphere of influence that a Greek speaker has on so many people in and outside the church, and how that influences behavior.
00:49:01.597 --> 00:49:01.637
So
00:49:01.677 --> 00:49:03.641
many people have been wonderful.
00:49:04.041 --> 00:49:05.344
I know, I know, yes.
00:49:05.625 --> 00:49:07.387
Absolutely wonderful.
00:49:07.547 --> 00:49:10.913
Uplifting, compassionate, kind.
00:49:11.474 --> 00:49:20.969
He gave a talk about mental health that I think was a huge breakthrough, and first time acknowledging really publicly from a general conference level.
00:49:21.666 --> 00:49:28.275
the difficulties that missionaries and others have suffering from depression and mental health, removing some of that stigma.
00:49:29.255 --> 00:49:33.340
I adore Elder Holland, which is why I was so disappointed in him.
00:49:35.324 --> 00:49:39.730
This is not coming from a place of hostility towards Elder Holland.
00:49:40.751 --> 00:49:57.077
It broke my heart because I had such high expectations of Elder Holland because I thought he had distinguished himself in so many ways of being the kind of church leader, being the kind of pastoral person that you would want an apostle to be.
00:49:59.581 --> 00:50:02.927
Yeah, he is an extraordinary individual.
00:50:02.947 --> 00:50:05.012
He's got lots of qualities.
00:50:05.713 --> 00:50:07.315
Some of his talks are amazing.
00:50:08.898 --> 00:50:09.840
But he's not off the hook.
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:14.000
He carries responsibility for The musket fire talk.
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:21.188
You know, he used to understand that, you know, especially someone like that who was an extraordinary speaker, who was very interesting as a speaker.
00:50:21.688 --> 00:50:23.250
You get different kinds of speakers.
00:50:23.449 --> 00:50:26.273
You know, you get, you know, Bednar.
00:50:26.313 --> 00:50:28.536
I find Bednar difficult to listen to.
00:50:28.576 --> 00:50:33.722
If I'm struggling to sleep, I'll put on one of his talks and I'm gone within two minutes.
00:50:34.503 --> 00:50:34.782
But then
00:50:34.943 --> 00:50:35.923
you listen to all the hollers.
00:50:35.943 --> 00:50:37.326
I know all of Bednar's story at some point.
00:50:37.706 --> 00:50:40.228
Remind me to tell a Bednar story because it has to do with...
00:50:41.346 --> 00:50:42.969
President Banks and Sue Banks.
00:50:43.048 --> 00:50:43.349
Right.
00:50:43.670 --> 00:50:45.052
I'd be interested, yeah.
00:50:45.231 --> 00:50:47.657
I've got a few thoughts, opinions on Elder Baird now.
00:50:47.677 --> 00:50:58.835
But Elder Holland, the great speaker, extraordinary orator, great influencer, and knows this, and knows the influence that he has and should be more responsible.
00:50:58.875 --> 00:50:59.697
Not off the hook by any means.
00:50:59.996 --> 00:51:02.240
You mentioned, and I wrote it down, by the way, a very important...
00:51:03.170 --> 00:51:09.016
point, which I've studied quite a bit, actually, or somewhat studied, a term called groupthink.
00:51:09.336 --> 00:51:11.298
You mentioned that five, 10 minutes ago.
00:51:11.318 --> 00:51:14.362
That is incredibly powerful.
00:51:14.722 --> 00:51:16.204
We see that in the corporate world.
00:51:16.766 --> 00:51:20.070
We see that across every culture.
00:51:20.110 --> 00:51:24.994
We see that here in Canada and in the indigenous communities, et cetera.
00:51:25.034 --> 00:51:26.137
We see that in government.
00:51:26.157 --> 00:51:31.938
We see that across all kinds of organizations across human nature of every culture of every age.
00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:33.603
And the church is no different.
00:51:33.643 --> 00:51:41.862
So you have this culture, this group thing that you have to Think a certain way, behave a certain way.
00:51:42.043 --> 00:51:45.130
It's led by the alpha male wolf, if you like, Elder Oaks.
00:51:46.092 --> 00:51:53.949
Very much a Packer style approach, very entrenched and fixed on in certain thoughts and thought processes, etc.
00:51:54.570 --> 00:51:59.300
And the apostles, you know, you have six leading apostles, six junior apostles, as you know.
00:51:59.842 --> 00:52:05.186
And, you know, the six junior follow pretty much everything the other six do, et cetera.
00:52:05.206 --> 00:52:14.715
And the top three, in terms of seniority, and particularly the alpha male, the Oaks, really set the tone, set the mindset.
00:52:14.894 --> 00:52:19.139
And, again, that doesn't let these individuals off the hook by any means.
00:52:19.179 --> 00:52:26.324
And they go out into the world and put on a unified face, you know, unified fronts, et cetera.
00:52:26.764 --> 00:52:45.422
But privately, and I do know this direct where, you know, one or two general authorities have possibly shared their personal thoughts and have said to me they don't agree with certain positions and certain concepts, but they're instructed and directed to follow the, you know, to toe the line.
00:52:45.742 --> 00:52:48.264
So the group think we shouldn't underestimate that, Jim.
00:52:48.324 --> 00:52:49.284
It's very powerful.
00:52:49.625 --> 00:52:50.445
It's very real.
00:52:50.967 --> 00:52:52.007
It's part of human nature.
00:52:52.047 --> 00:52:53.088
It's not unique to the church.
00:52:54.750 --> 00:53:05.398
But when they tie this to specific doctrines of eternal life, life, obedience, eternal promises that you have to live with exactness and pull the line strictly.
00:53:05.418 --> 00:53:10.070
At the end of the day, the senior apostle makes a final decision whether you like it or not, you have to toe the line.
00:53:10.592 --> 00:53:13.619
That is still very much alive and well.
00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:19.717
And we see that We see that in things like in our stake and some of the stakes I've served in.
00:53:19.757 --> 00:53:26.885
There's still an element, for example, of white supremacy, this race and priesthood issue still alive and well.
00:53:26.925 --> 00:53:32.208
And I still, I know people that even now think blacks should never receive the priesthood.
00:53:32.248 --> 00:53:34.931
And I'm like, where does that come from?
00:53:34.952 --> 00:53:39.635
And it's from talks that past leaders came who said, look, this will never change.
00:53:40.175 --> 00:53:42.597
You know, the blacks will never get the priesthood.
00:53:42.637 --> 00:53:47.565
And if they do, we're doing it to to keep favor with the law, with public opinion.
00:53:47.605 --> 00:53:48.445
That's said privately.
00:53:48.887 --> 00:53:54.376
But you've got members even now that are still entrenched in that thinking.
00:53:54.456 --> 00:54:14.755
And we must understand that the influence of the traditional conventional rank-and-file member, the senior tithe payer, the senior regular conventional member that subscribes to the old Protestant thinking, and mindset and group thinking in the church that are still very much the bedrock of the church.
00:54:15.297 --> 00:54:20.322
still is old-fashioned and traditional in terms of thinking and beliefs, et cetera, et cetera.
00:54:20.623 --> 00:54:27.969
Still, it goes back to the, you know, almost every principle that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith taught, you know, that polygamy is still correct.
00:54:28.108 --> 00:54:29.429
Yeah, we don't teach it.
00:54:29.449 --> 00:54:33.853
We kind of disavow, I think is the new word, you know, from this book.
00:54:33.873 --> 00:54:37.016
In actual fact, we still practice it.
00:54:37.237 --> 00:54:49.469
I think I had a chat with Elder Oaks about his second wife and whether he was sat next to me at dinner and we chatted about eternal marriage and you know, he's going to have two, two wives in the next life.
00:54:49.568 --> 00:54:58.039
And, uh, he kind of, he's kind of smiled and we, he said, yeah, uh, that's, uh, you know, I think he said, said something like that's, uh, that's what's going to happen.
00:54:58.099 --> 00:55:01.643
So, so we, you know, we still believe in polygamy.
00:55:01.744 --> 00:55:02.423
We still believe.
00:55:04.967 --> 00:55:24.938
When somebody said, yeah, yeah, there, there was a, so somebody at the beginning of the conference talk, somebody said, look, uh, She, I think, was the second wife who had been sealed to a husband, and she says, am I going to have to live with this other woman in the future?
00:55:24.978 --> 00:55:30.284
And are we going to have separate houses or something like that?
00:55:30.465 --> 00:55:33.969
And it got a laugh in conference, and it was designed to get a laugh.
00:55:34.050 --> 00:55:37.833
Like, ha, ha, ha, isn't this woman silly for even worrying about something like that?
00:55:37.853 --> 00:55:38.215
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:38.934 --> 00:55:48.851
And I think it just minimizes the abject terror I think that a lot of people have that we're going to have to live polygamy in the next life.
00:55:49.914 --> 00:55:52.538
I don't know of anybody that wants to live as a polygamist.
00:55:53.199 --> 00:56:00.389
I don't want to live as a, if my wife were to die, I don't know that I'd want to be sealed to another woman.
00:56:00.650 --> 00:56:03.092
I might get remarried, but I'd say, hey, you know what?
00:56:03.152 --> 00:56:07.800
I've already got my eternal companion and let's just enjoy our time here.
00:56:07.940 --> 00:56:08.942
And what do you say?
00:56:08.961 --> 00:56:09.443
I don't know.
00:56:10.123 --> 00:56:12.467
But I mean, I don't want to be a polygamist.
00:56:12.666 --> 00:56:14.309
I don't want to be forced to live polygamy.
00:56:14.978 --> 00:56:23.210
And for the church to say, oh yeah, we disavow polygamy, but not really, I think is very, very problematic.
00:56:24.452 --> 00:56:24.932
I agree.
00:56:24.972 --> 00:56:40.456
And I think that's the problem with the church and has been the problem with the church for many, many decades, well over a century, where we privately, secretly hold on to these doctrines because we...
00:56:41.474 --> 00:56:48.164
you know, these original teachings of Joseph at the Brigham Young, because that's the authentic, original version of the church.
00:56:49.527 --> 00:56:50.728
We say we're not changing.
00:56:50.768 --> 00:56:54.074
We're not going to water down or dilute any of the doctrines.
00:56:54.114 --> 00:56:54.574
We don't do that.
00:56:54.775 --> 00:56:58.000
Yeah, there's some incremental changes over time, but they're not real changes.
00:56:59.233 --> 00:57:01.077
Yes, we've abandoned the practice of polygamy.
00:57:01.478 --> 00:57:07.027
We've accepted the fact that blacks are equal and deserve the priesthood.
00:57:07.307 --> 00:57:12.016
But secretly, privately, we know that's not the case.
00:57:12.317 --> 00:57:31.003
And so when you have these private conversations, you know, away from the public eye or away from the rank and file members, and they open up and they share, you know, over a dinner or over a weekend when, you know, reorganizing a steak, you get an insight into what they really think and how they really feel.
00:57:31.125 --> 00:57:34.971
And it's frightening and it's dangerous.
00:57:35.371 --> 00:57:41.061
And it's often far removed from what is expressed across the pulpit.
00:57:42.003 --> 00:58:18.429
I do believe, however, that there is not only the potential, but there are figures in leadership and certainly in the rank and file of the senior general authorities with the right individual who are not positioned right now in the leadership right now, but I believe in the future, not in the immediate future, but that these new leaders will emerge and that positive change and openness and transparency and just being adult and grown up about it, which is what you're saying about, look, we made some mistakes, we got some things wrong, We delivered the wrong message.
00:58:19.931 --> 00:58:21.414
Our language wasn't appropriate.
00:58:21.875 --> 00:58:22.717
It was very emotive.
00:58:22.737 --> 00:58:23.438
It was destructive.
00:58:23.478 --> 00:58:24.559
It caused problems.
00:58:24.940 --> 00:58:32.693
And to actually, you know, when you do something wrong, when you make a mistake, I think we teach that we're supposed to apologize.
00:58:32.753 --> 00:58:37.802
If you remember the Gospel Principles book, there's a lesson in there on honesty.
00:58:38.338 --> 00:58:40.820
It covers all the general topics.
00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:46.646
I think that was produced in the 70s or 80s, and I think the church still uses that material.
00:58:46.686 --> 00:59:00.438
But when you make a mistake, acknowledge that you've made a mistake, apologize to the person in the situation, make amends, make restitution, put it right.
00:59:00.579 --> 00:59:08.619
And then the other thing that was learned from it, there's a very clear lesson, very simple, using very simple language about You know, forgiveness.
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:12.684
I think it's in the forgiveness lesson in there about how to, you know, seek forgiveness.
00:59:12.864 --> 00:59:19.434
And I just wish the church would follow its own principles, its own rhetoric, and actually live some of the stuff.
00:59:20.115 --> 00:59:23.119
And I think if it did, it would find a...
00:59:25.322 --> 00:59:35.978
It would redefine itself and find a whole new meaning and purpose to an existing audience and members and a whole new acceptance of other...
00:59:36.418 --> 00:59:42.726
individuals who are progressive and are looking to the church to change and looking to the church to make improvements.
00:59:43.166 --> 00:59:45.007
But it won't happen under Elder Oaks.
00:59:45.188 --> 00:59:46.891
It's not going to happen while Oaks is with us.
00:59:47.652 --> 00:59:49.193
I still have hope with Elder Holland.
00:59:50.295 --> 00:59:52.516
Bednar, I had hope with him, but he worries me.
00:59:53.018 --> 00:59:55.701
Uchtdorf gives me some hope.
00:59:56.842 --> 01:00:05.873
But you've got others in the leadership there who were very much Oaks, Packer, traditional conventional thinkers.
01:00:06.338 --> 01:00:29.016
And while you've got a sizable percentage of members that are traditional, conventional, orthodox, tithe-paying members, which they don't want to interrupt their tithing to forget, those revenue streams are absolutely critical to the church, especially with tithing dropping and donations and the war chest that the church has now built over the years of$100-plus billion dollars.
01:00:29.570 --> 01:00:32.896
And from a corporation point of view, great move.
01:00:32.956 --> 01:00:35.260
That's another story indeed.
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:42.793
We probably will get to in a future
01:00:42.934 --> 01:00:44.215
episode.
01:00:44.235 --> 01:00:54.273
Until then, we will see you next time on Inside Out.
01:00:54.293 --> 01:00:54.494
Inside Out.