Sound Liberation: Joe Williams on Black Artistry, Legacy & Belonging in Concert Music

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Welcome back to The Pianopod, everyone, and welcome
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to the final month of season six. We only have
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two more episodes to go, and what a remarkable
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season this has been. This season, our theme
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has been creativity and connection, featuring
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artists, educators, composers, and visionaries
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who are using their artistry to connect people,
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challenge perspectives, and expand what classical
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and contemporary concert music can look like
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today. It has also been a season of growth for
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the show itself, and this past October, we stepped
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beyond our comfort zone and produced our very
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first live event at Manus Prep at Stiefel Hall,
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bringing together live performance, on -stage
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conversation, and community in one space. It
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was both exhilarating and a huge learning experience,
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and we hope to continue expanding into more live
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events and collaborations in the new season ahead.
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And as we enter June and celebrate Juneteenth
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month, it has become a tradition on the Pianopod
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to dedicate this time to highlighting Black artists
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and honoring the profound legacy creativity,
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and ongoing contributions of Black musicians
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within classical and contemporary concert music.
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To close out the season, we are featuring two
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extraordinary artists whose work continues to
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reshape and expand the concert music landscape,
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composer and pianist Joe Williams and concert
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pianist David Barry. Today's guest is composer,
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pianist, educator, curator, and what he calls
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a sound liberator, Joe Williams. Currently pursuing
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a Ph .D. in composition at the University of
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Hawaii at Manoa, Joe moves fluidly across performance,
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scholarship, composition, education, and advocacy.
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From championing the music of Black composers
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including Florence Price, Betty Jackson King,
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Maria Thompson Corley, Brian Raphael Neighbors,
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and James Lee III, to producing films honoring
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artists like William Chapman Nejo, Joe's work
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is deeply rooted in preservation, liberation,
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and human connection. In this special conversation,
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we explore Black artistry and legacy, the meaning
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of representation and belonging in concert music,
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improvisation and composition, and ancestral
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responsibility, the transformative power of education,
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and how music can become a form of liberation.
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And before we begin, if you are enjoying these
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conversations, Be sure to hit subscribe on YouTube
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and follow The Piano Pod on your favorite podcast
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platform. Your support truly helps independent
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arts media like this continue to grow and reach
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more listeners around the world. This is Season
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6, Episode 19 of The Piano Pod, Sound Liberation.
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Joe Williams on Black Artistry, Legacy, Belonging,
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and Classical Music. Please enjoy the show. You
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are listening to The Piano Pod, where we talk
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to the brightest minds in the industry about
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how they are bringing the piano into the future
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and thriving in a complex, ever -evolving world.
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Joe, welcome to The Piano Pod. I'm so happy you're
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here. Thank you so much for being here. Thank
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you for having me. We actually met last year
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at Juneteenth LP, our 10th anniversary at Joe's
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Pub. here in New York. I remember sitting there
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and spotting you almost right away. And you were
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with Leah Claiborne, who I had also had her on
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the show last season. And of course, the two
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of you are connected through projects like Arise
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and Shine, which we're going to talk about. But
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by the way, where are you joining us from today?
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I'm joining you all from Honolulu, Hawaii. Oh,
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wow. Yay. And then you attend school there, no?
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I do. I'm pursuing my PhD in composition here.
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Oh, wow. Yeah, wow. How lovely. Do you like being
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on the island in Hawaii? It's a beautiful place
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to be. I mean, the culture, the openness, the
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food, the beach, the mountains, the hiking. I
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mean, what's not to love? But yeah, of course,
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not much time to do the fun stuff. That's why
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you're busy composing. But how long are you there
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already? Like, is this your, like, second, third
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year? This is my first year here. First year.
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Oh, that's right. Yeah. Okay. Great. Anyways,
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going back to our conversation. So Dr. Nena Oguo,
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who is the founder of the Juneteenth LP, she
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was, like, encouraging me to reach out to you
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multiple times. And especially because of the
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work you're doing to help reshape this classical
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music landscape through your performance, curation,
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and composition. And you move across so many
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spaces as a composer, pianist, and what you call
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a sound liberator? Exactly. Tell us, what does
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that mean? Well, I'm fortunate enough to wear
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many hats, and I was thinking about a term that
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could be inclusive of all the modalities and
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disciplines that I want to take up space in.
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And I think about calling myself a composer.
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That sounds so pretentious. I'm trying to get
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away from the ego, right? So pianist, I can't
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really play that well, so I don't really like
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calling myself pianist, right? You know, I just
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thought, okay, what's the core thing that I'm
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doing in everything? Curation, scholarship, performance.
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And I was thinking to myself, you know, my culiana
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or my responsibility is really to free people
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through my art, right? And I think a lot of musicians
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hold similar philosophies, but I really wanted
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to just anchor myself in ancestral truth and
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responsibility. At my best, yeah, I liberate
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sound for folks. I preserve histories and I free
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folks up. Wow. Great. Wonderful. That's exactly
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what you're doing through music and teaching
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and curation. So if you had to define your artistic
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identity, I mean, maybe you already explained,
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but your passion and mission in a few sentences,
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what would you say? Oh, my passion and mission.
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Wow. Right now at this moment of your life, 2026.
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You know, I'm just really passionate about connecting
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with folks. The path of a musician can be really
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solitary, you know, as we refine our crafts,
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you know, solitary confinement in the practice
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room. And then we have to switch. when we get
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to the concert stage and we have to be suddenly
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open -hearted. But how do we get to that point
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when, you know, we're not listening to people's
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stories and making deep eye contact and walking
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alongside them and journeying other paths? So,
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you know, right now I'm really passionate about
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human connection and having the fortune to travel
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different places, live with different communities.
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That's always something that could go deeper
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in our lives that I hope all my students have
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the chance to live like that. So that's number
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one. Number two, it's more artistic. It's understanding
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that the spaces I occupy, maybe there's not many
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folks who have a similar background as me and
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they're not used to seeing someone like me being
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free in public, right? I think American society
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especially doesn't, foster enough creativity
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and expression of Black men, queer Black men.
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You know, we don't see a lot of representation
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in all facets of society, but especially classical
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music. So I understand that just me coming up
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to a space, even before I play a note, there's
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a set of preconceived notions. Yeah, I kind of
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find a lot of joy in subverting those and just,
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you know, showing up with my tats and showing
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up with whatever I feel like wearing and just
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throwing down a, you know, Scarlatti Sonata.
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Just throwing it down and seeing people gag,
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you know what I'm saying? That is so cool. That
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is so cool. That's the way to play Scarlatti,
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especially. Why not? Why not? Okay, so. Let's
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talk about your recent, right? So congrats on
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the recent award, winning the Vanguard Award
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for Classical Innovation and Community Impact,
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an honor that speaks not only to your work as
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an artist, but to your impact as an educator
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and advocate. Can you tell us a bit about this
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award? Yeah, so Chivasia Arts Conservatory, actually
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all the way in Florida. is doing some amazing
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community music education work in reaching folks
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who are passionate about pursuing music education.
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And I really respect people who commit to addressing
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this barrier in real ways. So the founder, Patrice,
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she's a wonderful, wonderful pedagogue and violinist.
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She just decided she's not going to wait for
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the industry to recognize other people's contributions.
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She's just going to start awarding folks. This
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is how Black women do. They just don't wait for
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change. They're just like, let me just start
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doing it myself. Y 'all can catch up later. So
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to have her recognition, someone who's been doing
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this for so many decades at such a high level
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of excellence. That's huge. That's huge alone.
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And, you know, classical innovation, community
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impact. Wow, that's, do I really do that? You
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know, but when you hear that from someone you
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respect, from an elder in your community, that
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keeps you on that path. You know, that's very
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motivating to continue in that direction, even
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though in my... Humble viewpoint, like, no, there's
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tons of other people who've done more to fix
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this cluster F of a situation we're all in, right?
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But, yeah, just to share from my heart, it was
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really, really one of the greatest honors I could
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receive, really. Where in Florida? Was it Miami?
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Where is that town in Florida? I mean, between
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you and me, that state should just be obliterated
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off the map. There's a bunch of crazies in Florida
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doing the Lord's work. I believe Tallahassee.
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Oh, okay, okay, okay. Okay, great, great. So
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now moving on to the next. In an article that
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I read by the University of Hawaii at Manoa Department
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of Music, you described this recognition as carrying
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a kind of professional and ancestral obligation.
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I'd like to hear you expand on that. What does
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that sense of responsibility actually feel like
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for you right now? I think in the music world,
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we're used to talking about lineage when it comes
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to pedagogy, right? Like, oh, I'm the grandson
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of Rachmaninoff because my teacher studied with
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Rachmaninoff, right? And in the field of music
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education, we're also used to naming certain
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pedagogies after pioneers, right? Like the Kodai
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method, right? Just as an example. So I thought
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to myself, like, wow, what is the equivalent
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within the Black community? Because in the field
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of music education, I can't really think of any
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standard methods attributed to Black music educators,
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right? So what if receiving this award means
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that now I have to think about what is the Patrice
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method? Or what if after being mentored by Francis
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Walker, the pioneering pianist, what if I now
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teach in the Francis method? Whoa, that's going
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to take a lot of work to institutionalize, right?
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And it's going to take a lot of me just like...
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talking about it endlessly to everyone I see.
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So that's what I mean by responsibility, because
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there is a way for figures to live on historically,
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but it takes constant effort and advocacy to
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make sure that happens, right? And the ancestral
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part really is the lineage that I was talking
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about, just being able to trace. almost biblically
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being able to trace where you're coming from
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and where your ideas are coming from. And, you
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know, obviously in an academic environment, there's
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ways to cite that. But I think even what we're
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doing now conversationally is important, too.
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Oh, well, then speaking of that, I want to talk,
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start with your. uh education like educational
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part of the educator part of hat that you wear
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right because you mentioned about method and
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then basically lineage and pedigree like classical
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music especially is all about that and what's
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especially as a person who is also not only a
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black artist but also an advocate so What does
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that look like? I'm hearing this method called
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Floyd method. Is that something that you are
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advocating for? If so, I would love to know what
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this method is. Sure. So Patrice Floyd, who I
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mentioned earlier, she has a way of teaching
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kids in a way that's very culturally responsive
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and in a way that's familial. in a way that they
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can adapt quickly and change. So I believe authenticity
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is the best approach we could take into the classroom.
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And I think it not only builds rapport, but it
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motivates students to show up as themselves.
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That already takes down a huge barrier. But for
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me, I'm just really lucky because I've had so
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many people in my life come and model Black excellence.
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And for our listeners who are not familiar with
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this concept, this is a standard like you've
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never known. Come here, baby. That don't look
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right. Let me fix it. I mean, that's black excellence.
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And it's also being a president at Harvard University.
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You know what I'm saying? So it's very integrated
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into every facet of your life, not just how you're
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showing up to an assigned skill. Right. It's
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a way of being. It's like a whole philosophical
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construct. And we celebrate progress as a community
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by underlining moments of Black excellence and
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by remembering Black history. And I think that's
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really important. And that concept alone can
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transform the entire field of classical music.
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Because, yeah, I don't know. Black history is
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not just for February, right? So there's just
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lots of ways that we can remember through our
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art. It's all about remembering and honoring
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and bringing folks into the space. I always think
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about Maya Angelou, how she talked about having
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rainbows in her cloud and, you know, everyone
00:18:29.569 --> 00:18:32.009
who's ever been nice to her. It doesn't matter
00:18:32.009 --> 00:18:35.009
their background, you know, gay or straight or
00:18:35.009 --> 00:18:39.250
black or white or yellow or anything. You know,
00:18:39.250 --> 00:18:41.730
she brings all those people who ever showed her
00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:44.990
love. And she brings those people with her when
00:18:44.990 --> 00:18:47.009
she does all the great things that she's ever
00:18:47.009 --> 00:18:49.109
done. And they're with her. They're with her
00:18:49.109 --> 00:18:51.750
in that space. So that's what I call ancestral
00:18:51.750 --> 00:18:56.970
attunement. And, you know, we don't always have
00:18:56.970 --> 00:19:01.029
the privilege to have a posse around us. So when
00:19:01.029 --> 00:19:03.970
I play my concerti and when I play my sonatas,
00:19:04.009 --> 00:19:06.730
there's lots of people with me. And I hold those
00:19:06.730 --> 00:19:45.539
memories really close. I recently gave a solo
00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:48.299
recital at the University of Hawaii performing
00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:51.980
the piano works of Betty Jackson King and Richard
00:19:51.980 --> 00:19:55.079
Thompson. And across your work, more broadly,
00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:58.380
you've been deeply engaged with composers like
00:19:58.380 --> 00:20:02.059
Maria Thompson Corley. And I interviewed her
00:20:02.059 --> 00:20:06.519
and she's amazing. And her solo piano piece,
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.119
especially Lucid Dreaming is one of my favorites.
00:20:09.220 --> 00:20:13.380
And then James Lee III and then Brian Raphael.
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:16.960
Neighbors. Yes, and his birthday is today, by
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:20.119
the way. Oh, really? Hey! Happy birthday, Mr.
00:20:20.299 --> 00:20:23.059
Neighbors. Yeah, happy birthday, Mr. Neighbors.
00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.579
And so, there are premieres and performances.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.059
So, these are the composers that we still do
00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:32.579
not hear nearly enough in mainstream concert
00:20:32.579 --> 00:20:38.319
spaces. Yes, and to your point, they're also
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.740
quite prolific. I mean, let's go through each
00:20:41.740 --> 00:20:44.900
one who you mentioned, right? Please. Neighbors,
00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:48.759
three piano sonatas so far and a number of other
00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.079
solo piano works, not to mention chamber music
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.799
that features the piano, even a piano trio. I
00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.619
mean, the repertoire lists are vast. And I'm
00:21:00.619 --> 00:21:04.019
just so proud to see my colleagues rise. Maria
00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:07.400
Thompson Corley, just a phenomenal pianist hyphen
00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:09.859
composer. It's always nice to play music that's
00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:12.059
idiomatic, right? And she's written a lot that's
00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:14.819
just comfortable in the fingers to play. James
00:21:14.819 --> 00:21:17.559
Lee III premiered his album for the young at
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:22.019
heart. And wow, a dozen substantial solo piano
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:26.420
works and a piano concerto, chamber music again.
00:21:27.410 --> 00:21:30.990
So just to your point, yeah, not nearly integrated
00:21:30.990 --> 00:21:34.450
enough into our programs. And, you know, we have
00:21:34.450 --> 00:21:36.869
to remember that composers, any living composers,
00:21:36.950 --> 00:21:39.529
depending on a commission for our livelihood.
00:21:41.470 --> 00:21:45.589
So what we know about opportunities and equity
00:21:45.589 --> 00:21:47.390
in this country is that, you know, presenters
00:21:47.390 --> 00:21:49.750
really need to be intentional about including
00:21:49.750 --> 00:21:56.390
us in programming as well. Yeah. And so the recent
00:21:56.390 --> 00:22:00.069
recital with pieces by Betty Jackson King and
00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:03.349
Richard Thompson, tell us a little bit more about
00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:07.329
their works and what was that entire program
00:22:07.329 --> 00:22:11.369
like? Oh, thank you for that. So I did have a
00:22:11.369 --> 00:22:16.130
chance to record Richard Thompson's vocal works
00:22:16.130 --> 00:22:22.789
with my good sister Elena Lewis. That really
00:22:22.789 --> 00:22:25.390
opened up more interest into his other music.
00:22:25.609 --> 00:22:30.049
So I thought, okay, let's look at the solo piano
00:22:30.049 --> 00:22:34.710
works. And, you know, I had a chance to hear
00:22:34.710 --> 00:22:37.230
them recorded by the composer himself. I had
00:22:37.230 --> 00:22:40.410
a chance to hear them recorded by another wonderful
00:22:40.410 --> 00:22:44.109
pianist, Kim Davenport. And I said, okay, let
00:22:44.109 --> 00:22:47.210
me record and perform these as well because they're
00:22:47.210 --> 00:22:51.640
so beautiful and how they blend. Jazz idioms,
00:22:51.640 --> 00:23:36.910
the classical formalism. And I said, well, that's
00:23:36.910 --> 00:23:40.309
half of a recital. What else can we add to supplement
00:23:40.309 --> 00:23:44.210
that? Maybe the works of Betty Jackson King.
00:23:45.210 --> 00:23:49.309
So she also kind of liked jazz, but she was more
00:23:49.309 --> 00:23:53.630
influenced by modernism, impressionism. She was
00:23:53.630 --> 00:23:57.829
a great neoclassicist as well. I mean, she just
00:23:57.829 --> 00:24:00.630
took all of her interests and put them all together
00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:05.049
to make a beautiful, unique language. So the
00:24:05.049 --> 00:24:08.069
two of those composers works together. That's
00:24:08.069 --> 00:24:10.470
a full recital. One of them is with us. One of
00:24:10.470 --> 00:24:16.410
them is with us in another way, right? So there's
00:24:16.410 --> 00:24:18.829
historical Black composers to honor. There's
00:24:18.829 --> 00:24:22.750
living Black composers to honor. Wow. And I learned
00:24:22.750 --> 00:24:26.529
so much from this experience of just juxtaposing.
00:24:28.490 --> 00:24:31.450
two people with just really individual voices
00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:34.150
and being able to share that with an audience
00:24:34.150 --> 00:24:37.730
that, yeah, no one in the audience had heard
00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:41.309
any of their music before. And I think just the
00:24:41.309 --> 00:24:43.910
idea that, you know, especially in an academic
00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:47.029
environment, like, wow, I've been teaching for
00:24:47.029 --> 00:24:51.690
many years, I have many degrees, but this student
00:24:51.690 --> 00:24:54.910
just played music at a high level that I never
00:24:54.910 --> 00:25:00.019
knew. I think that sends a message to our academic
00:25:00.019 --> 00:25:03.640
community. And I would encourage any researcher,
00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:06.759
graduate student to keep pursuing really niche
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:11.119
avenues of music making that represent your culture,
00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:14.000
just to really make a message that there's lots
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:15.940
more work that we could be doing in our scholarship.
00:25:16.539 --> 00:25:21.220
Oh, definitely. Not only the Black history, but
00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:25.119
also in the, I think we need to explore more.
00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:29.799
Asian composers, Asian music in a industry, right?
00:25:29.940 --> 00:25:34.400
Yeah. I absolutely agree. And, you know, I'm
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.900
so lucky because I'm attending university, which
00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:43.880
is nationally regarded as, let's say, just the
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:47.700
central hub for Asian Pacific and Asian American
00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:52.039
music scholarships. So, wow. All of my colleagues
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.029
are really passionate and invested. in this kuleana
00:25:56.029 --> 00:25:59.410
of highlighting asian and asian -american and
00:25:59.410 --> 00:26:03.990
pacific composers as well wow yeah we'll we'll
00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:06.849
come back to that because i'm very curious and
00:26:06.849 --> 00:26:12.109
so but let's just see you know uh since we talked
00:26:12.109 --> 00:26:16.430
about showcasing highlighting excellent excellency
00:26:16.430 --> 00:26:19.970
um you know especially particularly the Black
00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:23.170
composers. I want to know also more about the
00:26:23.170 --> 00:26:27.410
storytelling part. When you put together recitals
00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:29.970
centered entirely on Black composers, it's not
00:26:29.970 --> 00:26:32.910
just programming, it's a message or it's a storytelling
00:26:32.910 --> 00:26:35.609
preservation, like preservation you mentioned,
00:26:35.730 --> 00:26:38.009
and then especially in the way that you also
00:26:38.009 --> 00:26:42.410
produce films, highlighting figures like William
00:26:42.410 --> 00:26:47.529
Chapman Neho and Maxine Mims and then Maya Angelou.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:50.680
So tell us more about these films. I'm just curious
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:54.900
and how they came about and then what you two
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:58.619
spotlight figures like them, especially Dr. Nieho.
00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:02.559
I'm trying to book him for interview, but he's
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:06.880
so busy. Busy guy. Wonderful, wonderful soul.
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:13.250
Beautiful spirit. Oh, my goodness. He has contributed
00:27:13.250 --> 00:27:17.190
so much to moving the needle toward honoring
00:27:17.190 --> 00:27:23.670
Blackness, honoring African -ness. His multi
00:27:23.670 --> 00:27:28.730
-volume Oxford publication of piano music by
00:27:28.730 --> 00:27:33.029
composers of African descent, his multiple recordings
00:27:33.029 --> 00:27:36.990
that accompany those materials, and his endless
00:27:36.990 --> 00:27:41.759
just... I mean, there's some scholars that just,
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:44.740
okay, here's my scholarship. But he is just active
00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:47.960
in masterclasses and recitals. Still, I don't
00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:50.019
even know how he balances all of this. It's wonderful.
00:27:51.220 --> 00:27:57.019
And, you know, the thing that we all love about
00:27:57.019 --> 00:27:59.940
Uncle Neajo is that the way he treats people
00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:02.220
is always from the heart. You know, he's always
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:06.160
modeling love. And, you know, there's no ego
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:11.000
with this guy. So. You know, in my relationship
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:13.940
with him, I had to say, okay, here's my opportunity
00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:19.240
to produce. Can we do a portrait documentary
00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:23.460
about this man, this beautiful man who's given
00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:27.519
us all so much, his warmth, his spirit, his scholarship,
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:33.400
his advocacy. So that was that film. And, you
00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.160
know. The producing part of my work started in
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.400
the pandemic, as many of us adjusted to different
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.339
ways of sharing art, given our circumstances,
00:28:45.700 --> 00:28:50.279
right? So instead of recitals, I worked with
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:54.880
videographer to highlight different folks whose
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:59.259
stories needed to be told. And for this film
00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:02.119
with Miyaho, I was really, really happy to have
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:08.230
the chance to invite contributors such as another
00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:14.369
wonderful African composer, Fred Oh, Bungani.
00:29:14.750 --> 00:29:18.569
Wow. Lots of other folks who wanted to really
00:29:18.569 --> 00:29:24.490
spell out why Nyaho is a living legend and what
00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:30.990
he has done. So intergenerational conversations,
00:29:31.190 --> 00:29:35.299
I think, are really important. as well for folks
00:29:35.299 --> 00:29:41.960
to see modeled on the screen. And yeah, I just
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.960
again, I just feel so honored and so lucky to
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.980
even be able to have a conversation with him.
00:29:49.059 --> 00:29:51.119
And I really hope that he can appear on the piano
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:53.519
pod so you have the same opportunity as well.
00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:57.940
Yes, that would be great. But so it did it become
00:29:57.940 --> 00:30:03.559
like a documentary or like a short film? Yeah,
00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:05.960
short film. What's the length? Do I remember?
00:30:06.700 --> 00:30:09.640
I think it's about a half hour. Really? Wow.
00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:14.319
Is it available to watch or listen? Yeah, we're
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.079
trying to get some rights negotiated so that
00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:24.339
it could be shared with the broader public. Would
00:30:24.339 --> 00:30:27.440
you be open to talking about your love for music?
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.619
My love for music? Yes. Tell me how this started.
00:30:31.690 --> 00:30:36.609
I grew up in a family where, you know, from the
00:30:36.609 --> 00:30:39.390
earliest times, and, you know, I had an elder
00:30:39.390 --> 00:30:43.269
sister, Yamapo, who was playing the piano. So
00:30:43.269 --> 00:30:45.910
I think all I know is that I just really wanted
00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:50.130
to imitate her. So my love for music started
00:30:50.130 --> 00:30:52.349
really early on. I think that's just because
00:30:52.349 --> 00:30:55.789
I was surrounded by it all. You are so multi
00:30:55.789 --> 00:30:58.730
-talented. You can even produce a film like that.
00:30:58.769 --> 00:31:01.779
That's great. I was listening to the arrangement
00:31:01.779 --> 00:31:04.819
of Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child for
00:31:04.819 --> 00:31:08.660
voice and piano sung by Kenneth Overton and piano
00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:11.759
by Dr. Elizabeth Hill. And what really stayed
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.660
with me was the sense of restraint and clarity.
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:19.200
It felt intentional, almost like you're carving
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.579
space into the sound with a harmony language
00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:25.740
that hints at jazz inflections and extended sonorities
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:30.390
and a long cluster like, you know. textures and
00:31:30.390 --> 00:31:33.450
on the piano part are obviously in there. So
00:31:33.450 --> 00:31:37.390
what have you been most focused on in your musical
00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:43.369
language lately? Thank you, Kimi. Well, that
00:31:43.369 --> 00:31:47.950
particular arrangement of African -American spiritual,
00:31:48.549 --> 00:31:52.089
you know, I'm a descendant of, you know, enslaved
00:31:52.089 --> 00:31:56.950
Africans, right? So the genre of spirituals.
00:31:57.369 --> 00:31:59.950
is always going to be near and dear to my heart.
00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:02.809
And that arrangement originally just started
00:32:02.809 --> 00:32:08.730
as an improvisation that me and a wonderful,
00:32:08.829 --> 00:32:10.930
wonderful, incredible tenor named Joshua Stewart
00:32:10.930 --> 00:32:17.049
performed for a radio broadcast. So, you know,
00:32:17.069 --> 00:32:20.170
he's introducing his selections and says, our
00:32:20.170 --> 00:32:22.930
next arrangement is by Joe Williams. And I'm
00:32:22.930 --> 00:32:25.799
like looking at him and I'm like, but... But
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:28.359
we're doing jazz. This isn't a written arrangement.
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.039
We're just improvising. So, you know, when he
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.259
said that, I took it seriously. Okay, so in just
00:32:33.259 --> 00:32:35.279
a couple seconds, I said, okay, whatever I play
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.380
now, it has to be preserved because he called
00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:42.599
it an arrangement. So I used as simple and refined
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.279
texture as I could. And I just wanted to create
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:50.670
something honest, but also. in my own voice.
00:32:50.829 --> 00:32:54.109
So I inflected a lot of jazz and also French
00:32:54.109 --> 00:32:56.150
impressionism in the arrangement that you heard.
00:32:56.789 --> 00:33:02.289
And it turned out really nice. And I got word
00:33:02.289 --> 00:33:04.849
from my really good friend, Kenny Overton, just
00:33:04.849 --> 00:33:08.710
an incredible human being, beautiful baritone.
00:33:09.049 --> 00:33:13.349
He said, oh, I'm making an album with Dr. Elizabeth
00:33:13.349 --> 00:33:17.089
Hill. And she is just the bomb, diggity, thebomb
00:33:17.089 --> 00:33:19.549
.com. She can play and throw it down on that
00:33:19.549 --> 00:33:23.049
keyboard, let me tell you. So these are two artists
00:33:23.049 --> 00:33:27.230
that I respect so dearly. And I was so fortunate
00:33:27.230 --> 00:33:29.329
that they were interested in this arrangement,
00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.390
which, yeah, after writing it all down, I thought,
00:33:32.430 --> 00:33:35.369
oh, I always need to start my compositions with
00:33:35.369 --> 00:33:39.930
improvisation because it's coming from a place
00:33:39.930 --> 00:33:43.089
that's undiluted. And I really didn't have to
00:33:43.089 --> 00:33:45.650
edit much of what I originally conceived because
00:33:45.650 --> 00:33:49.410
in the spirit of improvisation, there's so much
00:33:49.410 --> 00:33:52.309
freshness and I'm already subconsciously pulling
00:33:52.309 --> 00:33:57.789
from lots of different influences. I think composers,
00:33:57.970 --> 00:34:00.569
especially contemporary composers who work maybe
00:34:00.569 --> 00:34:02.750
more in the avant -garde side of the tradition,
00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:05.910
we can over -intellectualize music so much to
00:34:05.910 --> 00:34:08.550
the extent that Maybe people don't even want
00:34:08.550 --> 00:34:10.989
to hear it because it's not even melodic. It's
00:34:10.989 --> 00:34:15.789
too cerebral. It's mathematical, you could even
00:34:15.789 --> 00:34:19.690
call it. And I am a proponent for experimentation.
00:34:20.269 --> 00:34:23.469
I'm not saying let's just be conservative and
00:34:23.469 --> 00:34:27.570
write tonal music. But I think that using improvisation
00:34:27.570 --> 00:34:31.550
as the starting point can really result in more
00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:35.869
honest music making. All the twists and turns
00:34:35.869 --> 00:34:38.429
that come, all of the mistakes that you have
00:34:38.429 --> 00:34:41.949
to correct in real time, you know, in blues and
00:34:41.949 --> 00:34:45.849
jazz, that's part of the tradition. You leave
00:34:45.849 --> 00:34:49.610
those in, right? I think I'm really fortunate
00:34:49.610 --> 00:34:53.730
because, yeah, don't overthink it, composers.
00:34:54.730 --> 00:34:57.429
Just write what feels true and leave the rest
00:34:57.429 --> 00:35:00.969
to the artist to interpret. Wow. But did you
00:35:00.969 --> 00:35:04.679
have... Lots of experiences with improvisation,
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:09.000
like growing up or in your upbringing, I guess?
00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:13.219
A little bit. You know, my first relationship
00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:18.300
to the piano was playing by ear. And then I did
00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:20.780
receive some lessons eventually, but my early
00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:24.300
musical life was improvisation in church settings.
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.940
You know, I was homeschooled, so I had a lot
00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:34.099
of time to actually... practice and learn how
00:35:34.099 --> 00:35:37.199
to read music. So my sight reading skills were
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.280
developed from a really early age and I had a
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:45.480
freakish ability actually, freakish ability to
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:50.840
read scores fast. So that came in handy later
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.059
in life when I became a staff accompanist at
00:35:53.059 --> 00:35:55.219
Oberlin Conservatory and I had to learn all these
00:35:55.219 --> 00:35:59.699
scores really quickly. Wow. You know, we all
00:35:59.699 --> 00:36:03.659
have our strengths. And now that I compose, I'm
00:36:03.659 --> 00:36:09.199
like, what is my relationship to notation? So
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.039
recently I've been involving more open -ended
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:18.199
graphic notation so that the composer can see
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:23.400
a symbol. And I guess the semiology of that can
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:26.019
inflect how they interpret the other notes that
00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:30.900
are written. Wow, that sounds, I don't know.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:34.340
I want to see the score. Yeah. I'll tell you.
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:36.780
You know, in the West, we're so obsessed with
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:40.119
like the written word. And in this chapter in
00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:42.539
my life, I'm obsessed with like preserving oral
00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:46.500
histories and, you know, preserving knowledge
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:51.079
in other ways. So I'm at this weird crossroads
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.079
in my compositional life where I really want
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:58.579
to break free from notation. You know, lean into
00:36:58.579 --> 00:37:03.360
the jazz side and graphic side. But I'd love
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:04.920
to have this conversation again with you in a
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:06.760
few years and see where I land on all of this.
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.340
It's all very valuable. It's not either or. Yeah,
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:14.320
yeah, it is. It is not either or. Wow. But, you
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:19.119
know, coming from like a strict classical training,
00:37:19.219 --> 00:37:22.559
I think it's a very, very difficult thing to
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:26.429
do. in that sort of free way and start from like
00:37:26.429 --> 00:37:30.530
improvisation that sort of idea but I can sense
00:37:30.530 --> 00:37:35.190
that you were playing in church the style of
00:37:35.190 --> 00:37:38.590
music was like a gospel kind of style and then
00:37:38.590 --> 00:37:42.389
you were you know given specific like let's say
00:37:42.389 --> 00:37:46.690
hymnals or maybe like a melody with chords and
00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:48.610
then you were able to improv or did you just
00:37:48.610 --> 00:37:51.230
everything by ear and you were just playing in
00:37:51.230 --> 00:37:55.820
church? We had lead sheets in the church setting
00:37:55.820 --> 00:38:00.280
I grew up playing in. And I would say the aesthetic
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:05.659
was more contemporary Christian. So, you know,
00:38:05.659 --> 00:38:08.039
it was a, I guess they call it a praise team
00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.699
or praise band. And just, yeah, we played off
00:38:10.699 --> 00:38:14.119
the lead sheets and just improvised on the chord
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:19.659
changes. But, you know, my dad was a pastor.
00:38:21.769 --> 00:38:25.050
Originally from Mississippi, but pastoring in
00:38:25.050 --> 00:38:31.210
the Seattle -Tacoma region. And demographically,
00:38:31.210 --> 00:38:34.170
a little bit different from Mississippi, right?
00:38:34.409 --> 00:38:38.510
Right, yeah. So I heard him play lots of, you
00:38:38.510 --> 00:38:42.869
know, lots of old songs that, you know, you might
00:38:42.869 --> 00:38:45.750
hear in Mississippi. And he had a way of playing
00:38:45.750 --> 00:38:51.059
his guitar in the country -picking style. I think
00:38:51.059 --> 00:38:55.440
that somehow has informed my language too. But
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:57.440
yeah, I always like to clarify, like when I grew
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:00.900
up in the church, like, yeah, my dad, black pastor,
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:06.119
but not really a lot of gospel. Imagine that.
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:10.360
Yeah. Wow. I mean, I'm asking this because it's
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:15.460
always fascinating where, how all the guests
00:39:15.460 --> 00:39:21.090
start playing the piano, you know? And everybody
00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:24.510
has a different story. And some grew up in a
00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:28.090
very strict classical music background at home.
00:39:28.150 --> 00:39:31.150
And then some are just basically there was no
00:39:31.150 --> 00:39:33.030
music at all. And then all of a sudden they fell
00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:35.969
in love with music. It's so fascinating. You
00:39:35.969 --> 00:39:38.630
know, the moment they just music becomes something
00:39:38.630 --> 00:39:42.329
to their lives. So that's why I asked. But I
00:39:42.329 --> 00:39:47.650
actually met many, several amazing gospel piano
00:39:47.650 --> 00:39:52.079
players, pianists. They're incredible. Oh, they
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:55.639
are incredible. And I always respect people who
00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:58.320
come to that tradition later in life. Like I
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.239
have a wonderful colleague, Dr. I Ching, who
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:04.980
teaches piano at Tuskegee University in Alabama.
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.199
And part of his position, in addition to teaching,
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:15.400
he has been assigned to play for the gospel choir
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:18.769
there. And of course. This is a colleague from
00:40:18.769 --> 00:40:21.949
my Oberlin days who was an amazing classical
00:40:21.949 --> 00:40:26.449
pianist. And when he took the position, he just
00:40:26.449 --> 00:40:29.650
had to learn. And he's done such a wonderful
00:40:29.650 --> 00:40:36.329
job embracing this tradition. This funny Taiwanese
00:40:36.329 --> 00:40:39.809
dude who loves basketball ends up in Alabama
00:40:39.809 --> 00:40:42.909
and is playing gospel. And I think it's so amazing
00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:45.489
because that speaks to how universal music can
00:40:45.489 --> 00:40:49.989
be. So, yeah, it's never too late. If you have
00:40:49.989 --> 00:40:52.050
any interest, there's lots of resources now to
00:40:52.050 --> 00:40:55.929
learn. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and a lot of ways
00:40:55.929 --> 00:41:00.570
to learn to improvise, make it on your own. Wow.
00:41:00.730 --> 00:41:04.969
So then that's how you started your musical journey.
00:41:05.110 --> 00:41:07.610
And then what was the musical training like growing
00:41:07.610 --> 00:41:09.949
up? You know, reflecting back, I think it's such
00:41:09.949 --> 00:41:13.630
a miracle that I even made it through all of
00:41:13.630 --> 00:41:17.980
the barriers that there are to. you know, learning
00:41:17.980 --> 00:41:25.260
an instrument. But originally I was, I had access
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:31.179
to a keyboard and, you know, I love playing video
00:41:31.179 --> 00:41:33.619
games. So I would just play by ear all of the
00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:36.219
themes of the video games that I heard. Right.
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:40.940
And I had a sister -in -law who played piano
00:41:40.940 --> 00:41:47.730
and she taught me some things at first, but unless
00:41:47.730 --> 00:41:51.030
you're from a socioeconomic bracket that really
00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:54.630
has to make tough decisions every day about life
00:41:54.630 --> 00:41:58.869
necessities, sometimes you don't realize educating
00:41:58.869 --> 00:42:03.670
a child on a private instrument is a substantial
00:42:03.670 --> 00:42:07.570
investment. I mean, over the course of a number
00:42:07.570 --> 00:42:10.730
of years, our parents invested thousands of dollars
00:42:10.730 --> 00:42:15.360
in us, right? You know, and I think that When
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:20.000
we have conversations around equity and access,
00:42:20.179 --> 00:42:23.639
especially, we need to keep that in mind, right?
00:42:23.900 --> 00:42:27.880
It just takes resources to generate talent, period,
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:31.320
right? Yes. Thank you for saying that. It is
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:36.179
true. I mean, even having the instrument itself,
00:42:36.340 --> 00:42:39.179
after a keyboard, you know, I remember the conversation
00:42:39.179 --> 00:42:41.599
really clearly in my memory about my parents
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:45.239
talking about, you know, to advance. He really
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:51.159
needs a real piano, right? A real instrument.
00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:54.599
And they were just talking, okay, how do we get
00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:56.880
it? Where do we get it? Here's our budget. Are
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.139
we going to find something, you know, suitable
00:42:59.139 --> 00:43:03.199
with this budget? But they made it happen, you
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:07.340
know, because they recognized my potential. And
00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:10.820
imagine I didn't have a community or family unit
00:43:10.820 --> 00:43:12.920
that didn't recognize my potential. I would still
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:17.630
be. on a keyboard playing by ear. And that's
00:43:17.630 --> 00:43:21.230
a beautiful tradition, but look at how much I've
00:43:21.230 --> 00:43:24.889
been able to grow in other traditions because
00:43:24.889 --> 00:43:29.409
I had the resource access, right? So I think
00:43:29.409 --> 00:43:37.949
that's the most important piece for me. educators
00:43:37.949 --> 00:43:41.190
that came after my sister -in -law. I had a Norwegian
00:43:41.190 --> 00:43:44.889
-American piano teacher named Paul Tweet in Tacoma
00:43:44.889 --> 00:43:49.250
who brought me up to speed for being such a late
00:43:49.250 --> 00:43:51.469
starter. I started piano lessons when I was 14
00:43:51.469 --> 00:43:57.849
years old. That was wonderful to have a solid
00:43:57.849 --> 00:44:04.400
foundation from him and then I went on to I also
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:07.500
had a wonderful choral educator who, you know,
00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:11.179
not piano, but instilled a certain level of excellence,
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:13.960
a Greek -American woman named Despina Elatsis,
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:17.360
who had me accompanying her choirs at a young
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:21.880
age and, you know, understanding different approaches
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:26.739
to music education. And for some reason or another,
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:29.960
with the support of just these few individuals
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:36.630
in my life, I was able to be. One of 20 pianists
00:44:36.630 --> 00:44:38.789
admitted to Oberlin Conservatory in the year
00:44:38.789 --> 00:44:47.710
20... 2011. Yeah, 2011. And I was the first Black
00:44:47.710 --> 00:44:49.929
pianist to be admitted to that institution in
00:44:49.929 --> 00:44:54.789
a six -year span. Wow. Six years at that institution,
00:44:54.989 --> 00:44:56.969
there were no other Black classical pianists
00:44:56.969 --> 00:45:02.400
admitted, which speaks to, in my opinion... institutional
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:08.019
complacency, and I'm really happy to see it on
00:45:08.019 --> 00:45:13.099
a better trajectory nowadays. But those were
00:45:13.099 --> 00:45:18.300
some wonderful and also lonely times. Our friend
00:45:18.300 --> 00:45:21.019
Nena, who you mentioned, with her wonderful Juneteenth
00:45:21.019 --> 00:45:24.719
programming in New York City, Joe's Pub and other
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:27.920
places like the Met Museum, she also attended
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:31.510
Oberlin Conservatory. Of course, we all have
00:45:31.510 --> 00:45:35.510
stories from our music school years, right? Hopefully
00:45:35.510 --> 00:45:41.030
not all traumatic, but wow. Tell me more about
00:45:41.030 --> 00:45:44.030
that. Yeah, like you said, sorry to interrupt,
00:45:44.130 --> 00:45:47.070
but tell me more about, you said something about
00:45:47.070 --> 00:45:54.150
felt solitude or loneliness. Yeah, tell me. Yeah,
00:45:54.150 --> 00:45:57.809
well, I think that's the crux of representation,
00:45:58.289 --> 00:46:01.239
right? When you feel like you're the only one
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:03.619
doing something, which of course it's not true,
00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:06.579
right? But sometimes we're all in our own silos
00:46:06.579 --> 00:46:08.780
and we might not have the mentorship to guide
00:46:08.780 --> 00:46:11.780
us, to give us that perspective that, okay, there's
00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:14.920
lots of other people like you doing what you're
00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:18.320
doing, but just not in this space, right? And
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:21.400
I actually had moments like that because at Oberlin,
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:23.760
I had a wonderful Black dean, Chris Jenkins,
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:28.110
who's now leading the... Lawrence Conservatory
00:46:28.110 --> 00:46:31.989
in Wisconsin. But to have that representation
00:46:31.989 --> 00:46:36.989
gave me perspective. To have the scholarship
00:46:36.989 --> 00:46:41.670
support of Frances Walker, a pianist who set
00:46:41.670 --> 00:46:45.690
up a scholarship fund for Black students. I was
00:46:45.690 --> 00:46:47.750
able to have her support and mentorship in that
00:46:47.750 --> 00:46:51.989
space. And other, you know, supportive allies
00:46:51.989 --> 00:46:56.650
like my piano professor, Sanford Margolis. like
00:46:56.650 --> 00:46:59.809
my instrumental accompanying professor, James
00:46:59.809 --> 00:47:02.530
Hausman, you know, they made me feel like a whole
00:47:02.530 --> 00:47:05.329
human being, you know, and gave me an education
00:47:05.329 --> 00:47:10.150
that was really world -class. So again, I look
00:47:10.150 --> 00:47:12.050
back at my life and I see all the areas that
00:47:12.050 --> 00:47:16.369
I got lucky. I got so lucky, but there were moments
00:47:16.369 --> 00:47:19.750
of loneliness for sure, because it's really,
00:47:19.929 --> 00:47:22.829
I almost wonder, should institutions just let
00:47:22.829 --> 00:47:27.630
one Black person in? The token, right? No, let
00:47:27.630 --> 00:47:30.090
us in in bigger numbers. Come on, two or three
00:47:30.090 --> 00:47:33.269
of us. At least let us have some friends along
00:47:33.269 --> 00:47:38.250
the way. Yeah, and hopefully that would be the
00:47:38.250 --> 00:47:43.750
case now. I'm not sure, but I'm away from all
00:47:43.750 --> 00:47:47.429
these institutions for a long time. Tell me more
00:47:47.429 --> 00:47:51.650
about your teacher, legendary pioneering pianist,
00:47:51.650 --> 00:47:55.530
Francis Walker. I was listening to her recording
00:47:55.530 --> 00:47:59.650
of Mendelssohn's Variations Theory. Oh, made
00:47:59.650 --> 00:48:03.550
me cry this morning. So deeply expressive. And
00:48:03.550 --> 00:48:07.050
then that tone, her tone, I mean, speaks to you,
00:48:07.070 --> 00:48:12.489
just gets you. But you are one of her final students,
00:48:12.789 --> 00:48:17.230
no? Yes. What was it like just sitting just beside
00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:22.030
her and getting lessons? You know, I'll use this
00:48:22.030 --> 00:48:25.070
word again, familial. You know, she was kind
00:48:25.070 --> 00:48:30.389
of like a grandmother figure to me. And I did
00:48:30.389 --> 00:48:34.090
meet her at the end of her life. It was a long
00:48:34.090 --> 00:48:39.090
life. It was a hard life. But for those interested,
00:48:39.170 --> 00:48:42.250
she did write somewhat of an autobiography called
00:48:42.250 --> 00:48:45.150
A Miraculous Journey, which is available online
00:48:45.150 --> 00:48:48.739
if you want to order and read that. She left
00:48:48.739 --> 00:48:52.500
behind lots of recordings as well. The 24 Negro
00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:55.320
Melodies of Samuel Coleridge Taylor, which she
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:59.059
recorded in just one sitting. Oh, my God. If
00:48:59.059 --> 00:49:02.500
you can imagine. I mean, that's over an hour
00:49:02.500 --> 00:49:07.900
of music, right? Wow. Yeah, she drove from Oberlin,
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.239
where she was teaching as the first tenured Black
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:13.300
woman professor at the institution. And she drove
00:49:13.300 --> 00:49:16.139
to New York. And she was going to get caught
00:49:16.139 --> 00:49:18.099
in a storm if she didn't leave. So she recorded
00:49:18.099 --> 00:49:20.800
it all in one setting. And what we hear is this
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.940
beautiful music. But that's just the type of
00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:28.280
genius she was, right? And she told me lots of
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:30.340
different stories. I would go to her house and,
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.219
you know, she would serve me food. And I would
00:49:33.219 --> 00:49:34.920
always tell her, oh, I'm vegan, I'm vegan. And
00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.280
she would always put something on the plate that
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:41.099
wasn't vegan. You know, like any older generation
00:49:41.099 --> 00:49:42.800
does and say, you know, you have to eat this.
00:49:42.860 --> 00:49:44.570
You have to get strong. Get some meat on your
00:49:44.570 --> 00:49:49.210
bones. You know, in between that, she would make
00:49:49.210 --> 00:49:52.190
me listen to her recordings, which Mendelssohn,
00:49:52.349 --> 00:49:55.909
she loved. Liszt, she loved performing. Brahms,
00:49:55.949 --> 00:50:01.070
she had a very special affinity for. And also
00:50:01.070 --> 00:50:04.489
a number of other Black composers who she championed
00:50:04.489 --> 00:50:07.170
and who I had to follow in her footsteps to champion
00:50:07.170 --> 00:50:10.730
as well. She also was a proponent of her brother's
00:50:10.730 --> 00:50:14.579
music, George Walker. And as many wonderful artists
00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:18.239
interpreted his music, she was always proud that
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:20.900
he complimented her as being one of the best
00:50:20.900 --> 00:50:25.500
interpreters of his music. And we know George
00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:29.260
Walker's earlier works have a very different
00:50:29.260 --> 00:50:33.619
flavor than the later works because serialism
00:50:33.619 --> 00:50:37.559
and other sorts of atonalities were... That was
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.179
the it music for institutions in the 50s, right?
00:50:42.030 --> 00:50:47.030
at least in this country. And yeah, Francis was
00:50:47.030 --> 00:50:49.329
telling me like, you know, in this chapter of
00:50:49.329 --> 00:50:51.849
his life, he got cold and mathematical, just
00:50:51.849 --> 00:50:54.590
like his music. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's
00:50:54.590 --> 00:50:57.550
some family tea right there. Hold up now. I wasn't
00:50:57.550 --> 00:51:00.710
ready, but you know, she definitely had a preference
00:51:00.710 --> 00:51:05.369
for his earlier works. Second piano sonata is
00:51:05.369 --> 00:51:09.900
really quite accessible and beautiful. Variations
00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:13.699
on a Kentucky folk song, gorgeous, very hard,
00:51:13.860 --> 00:51:19.380
gorgeous. So anyway, I heard lots of family stories
00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:22.760
that might be too personal to share, but I also
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:30.260
heard all of her challenges navigating life as
00:51:30.260 --> 00:51:32.480
an international concert pianist, stories she
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.860
told me in Germany about how she was treated.
00:51:36.740 --> 00:51:42.000
stories she told me of other other pianists how
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:51.619
they treated her you know I think having having
00:51:51.619 --> 00:51:56.039
the chance to hear her experiences this late
00:51:56.039 --> 00:52:00.139
in life in her 90s carried that much pain still
00:52:00.139 --> 00:52:06.280
as a young person seeing that That trauma has
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:12.260
lasted for so many years. Yeah. Yeah, she had
00:52:12.260 --> 00:52:17.300
a really not one or two, but triple, I think,
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:22.980
challenges. She was injured or burned when she
00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:28.219
was young. Right? Yeah. And then she was really
00:52:28.219 --> 00:52:35.750
the only female Black. educator at Oberlin and
00:52:35.750 --> 00:52:40.429
so many other challenges I'm sure she encountered.
00:52:41.150 --> 00:52:46.570
Wow, what a story. As the book calls it, it's
00:52:46.570 --> 00:52:51.670
a miraculous journey. Very miraculous. We have
00:52:51.670 --> 00:52:55.630
to think, you know, when we see a Black person
00:52:55.630 --> 00:52:58.309
in the classical space, we just have to stop
00:52:58.309 --> 00:53:03.059
and think how much this person has endured how
00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:05.579
much they have survived just to be able to show
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:11.719
up and and play beautiful often european music
00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:15.820
at a high standard which some people just resent
00:53:15.820 --> 00:53:18.420
that fact alone that we're just out here making
00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:21.619
beautiful beautiful music from all over the world
00:53:21.619 --> 00:53:27.409
you know and um That's just the starting point.
00:53:27.570 --> 00:53:29.769
So what else can we do with our artistry? And
00:53:29.769 --> 00:53:33.010
what else can we do with our pedagogy to share
00:53:33.010 --> 00:53:36.510
this tradition in ways that aren't continuing
00:53:36.510 --> 00:53:41.849
that pain that we endured, but perpetuating beauty
00:53:41.849 --> 00:53:47.710
and love for the world? How do we do that? Yeah.
00:53:48.530 --> 00:53:53.170
Well, that's where you come in. And, you know,
00:53:53.190 --> 00:53:56.000
you don't speak really. about yourself like we've
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.940
been talking about other composers but you're
00:53:57.940 --> 00:54:00.579
an incredible pianist i actually watched your
00:54:00.579 --> 00:54:04.300
performance of speaking of you know piano sonata
00:54:04.300 --> 00:54:07.039
number two by brian rafael neighbors and we just
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.440
talked about oh i even commented on that video
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:14.179
i said great soundscape deeply soulful immersive
00:54:14.179 --> 00:54:19.219
oh immersive that's that's the word wow that
00:54:19.219 --> 00:54:23.070
music but you're playing how special You're very,
00:54:23.190 --> 00:54:25.909
very gifted. You're a very, very fantastic pianist.
00:54:26.130 --> 00:54:32.010
So after graduating and you were still in, you
00:54:32.010 --> 00:54:34.730
went back to Washington State area, Seattle area,
00:54:35.010 --> 00:54:40.090
and you were being a collaborative pianist for
00:54:40.090 --> 00:54:43.530
a while. Oh, no, no. At Oberlin, not Washington.
00:54:44.489 --> 00:54:47.949
Yes, both. Actually, actually both. So after
00:54:47.949 --> 00:54:52.340
a year in that staff position, I... finished
00:54:52.340 --> 00:54:55.199
up my graduate degree in Cleveland and went back
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:57.940
to the Seattle area to freelance as a collaborative
00:54:57.940 --> 00:55:01.000
pianist. So I did that for a number of years,
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:05.260
you know, working with lots of wonderful talent,
00:55:05.579 --> 00:55:08.239
you know, folks from Seattle Opera, Portland
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:14.880
Opera, you know, educating other kids in my community
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:17.719
who needed access to free music lessons as well.
00:55:17.860 --> 00:55:20.940
And, you know, putting lots of pieces together
00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:23.780
as we do as musicians to make our livelihoods.
00:55:23.780 --> 00:55:28.159
Right. And didn't you create like a sort of educational
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:31.940
institution or something and then teaching young
00:55:31.940 --> 00:55:35.119
kids in the area and then including, you know,
00:55:35.139 --> 00:55:40.139
neurodiverse kids, right? Yes, yes. What an incredible
00:55:40.139 --> 00:55:45.340
way to spend my 20s, right? Just saying yes to
00:55:45.340 --> 00:55:50.420
projects that... I wanted to, right? And starting
00:55:50.420 --> 00:55:53.420
new initiatives and gathering community to solve
00:55:53.420 --> 00:55:56.739
challenges, right? So during this time, I served
00:55:56.739 --> 00:56:00.079
on the Tacoma Arts Commission. During this time,
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:03.099
I served as an arts advisor for the city of Seattle.
00:56:04.219 --> 00:56:07.980
During this time, I founded a free after -school
00:56:07.980 --> 00:56:10.199
music program called Tequila Kids Make Music,
00:56:10.260 --> 00:56:14.079
which for about four years, we were seeing 50
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:17.300
kids every week. mostly immigrants and refugees
00:56:17.300 --> 00:56:22.679
in the Tukwila, South Seattle area. And we were
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:26.179
offering them African drum lessons, group piano
00:56:26.179 --> 00:56:32.980
lessons, choir, guitar, and just joyous years
00:56:32.980 --> 00:56:35.079
of connecting with the community through music.
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:38.699
And during this time, I also achieved state certification
00:56:38.699 --> 00:56:43.920
as a behavior technician. So I was giving, you
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:47.760
know, ABA therapy to kids on the autism spectrum
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:50.659
and helping them with their motor skills and
00:56:50.659 --> 00:56:54.760
speech acquisition. Beautiful years of my life.
00:56:54.860 --> 00:56:58.760
I really feel so grounded. And, you know, I think
00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:01.719
when we're young, I could say this because I'm,
00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:07.639
you know, mid -30s now. Oh, so old, please. When
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.480
we're younger, we just have this thirst to really
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:14.280
contribute. to some of the issues that are important
00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:16.340
to us. You know, we're shaping our values in
00:57:16.340 --> 00:57:21.519
the world. Not everybody. Usually people in their
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:25.320
twenties, they just focus on themselves. Like
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:27.380
that's the only thing that they have in their
00:57:27.380 --> 00:57:32.579
mind. Not you. You started from community. That's,
00:57:32.579 --> 00:57:35.019
that's something that speaks so much about you.
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:40.159
Yeah. I was very impressed. Yeah. But then you
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:43.780
abandoned everything and you went to Mexico.
00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:47.920
Yes. I said, you know what? I've done enough.
00:57:48.820 --> 00:57:52.119
I can't just keep serving community until I die.
00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:56.199
No, I actually did. I moved to Mexico and I pursued
00:57:56.199 --> 00:58:02.159
my own liberation. Life in the States, I think
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:04.880
we all can just use a breather. I think we can
00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.289
all use a breather, okay? Things are getting
00:58:07.289 --> 00:58:10.550
a little crazy. They have been crazy since forever,
00:58:10.909 --> 00:58:14.989
since the last 250 years. But I had the chance
00:58:14.989 --> 00:58:18.710
to move to Mexico after serving as a music director
00:58:18.710 --> 00:58:21.869
for a wonderful, wonderful church, Plymouth Church,
00:58:22.170 --> 00:58:25.989
where the Reverend Dr. Kelly Brown preaches.
00:58:26.150 --> 00:58:29.849
And that was kind of my last community effort
00:58:29.849 --> 00:58:33.860
because I wanted to end on a high note. I was
00:58:33.860 --> 00:58:35.760
like, this feels really good. I could keep doing
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:38.320
this and just live happily as a church musician
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:41.900
for the rest of my days. Or I could just try
00:58:41.900 --> 00:58:44.539
to continue growing. So I moved to Mexico. And
00:58:44.539 --> 00:58:48.380
there I was supporting Poder Coral, which is
00:58:48.380 --> 00:58:53.579
a community choir, actually, in Mexico, in the
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:58.480
state of Jalisco. And that was really fun because
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:01.639
I was navigating a new language, navigating a
00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:05.539
new country. And again, being able to share the
00:59:05.539 --> 00:59:08.039
gift of music with community members. Right.
00:59:08.199 --> 00:59:11.420
And for how long you were there? One year. One
00:59:11.420 --> 00:59:14.500
year. Yeah. So last year I saw you, that's when
00:59:14.500 --> 00:59:20.079
you were about to move to Hawaii, no? Was I already
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:23.039
living in Mexico when you saw me? Yeah. You said
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:28.079
you flew from Mexico to New York. And then, so
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:32.449
you were not yet at Hawaii, in Hawaii, but. Yeah,
00:59:32.530 --> 00:59:39.329
you were in transit. I was. I really never felt
00:59:39.329 --> 00:59:43.190
a spirit of inclusion from the composer mentors
00:59:43.190 --> 00:59:46.849
and professors in my earlier music education.
00:59:47.550 --> 00:59:50.250
You know, I'd interpreted lots of works by composers,
00:59:50.329 --> 00:59:55.269
but I never really, I would just say I never
00:59:55.269 --> 00:59:58.010
had access to composition lessons, to be very
00:59:58.010 --> 01:00:06.150
blunt and frank. I had some really wonderful
01:00:06.150 --> 01:00:12.449
music theory education. And because I play piano,
01:00:12.469 --> 01:00:14.590
obviously, that's a wonderful foundation for
01:00:14.590 --> 01:00:18.989
understanding music holistically. So in recent
01:00:18.989 --> 01:00:22.230
years, through my freelance work, through opportunities
01:00:22.230 --> 01:00:26.210
like what Afton Battle gave me, when she was
01:00:26.210 --> 01:00:28.949
leading the Fort Worth Opera, she was one of
01:00:28.949 --> 01:00:33.880
my first commissions. Right. Always in my career,
01:00:34.099 --> 01:00:37.039
Black women have commissioned me to produce work
01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:42.280
when the mainstream institutions won't get their
01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:46.539
act together. You know, most recently, Castle
01:00:46.539 --> 01:00:49.619
of Our Skins, Ashley Gordon, artistic director
01:00:49.619 --> 01:00:54.079
there for 13 years. Wow. She's been doing such
01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:57.960
great work and she has given me my latest commission.
01:01:00.329 --> 01:01:03.590
Castle of Skins is in Boston. That's an organization
01:01:03.590 --> 01:01:07.570
dedicated to foster cultural, celebrating Black
01:01:07.570 --> 01:01:10.690
artistry through music, right? Yeah. Exactly.
01:01:10.929 --> 01:01:15.230
Sorry to interrupt. Yes, go ahead. And coming
01:01:15.230 --> 01:01:20.349
into a compositional identity after being a,
01:01:20.349 --> 01:01:23.030
you know, concertizing pianist, collaborative
01:01:23.030 --> 01:01:27.349
pianist, piano educator, all those things, right?
01:01:29.739 --> 01:01:33.440
I realize it's not that much of a reach. You
01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:37.219
know, the gap between what what we do is performing
01:01:37.219 --> 01:01:41.559
artists and composers. I don't I don't think
01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:45.179
it's as huge as we make it up because we have
01:01:45.179 --> 01:01:48.480
the skills to do that. Like if you if you compose
01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:50.900
an etude tomorrow, it would sound good. I know
01:01:50.900 --> 01:01:55.119
it would. Well, I did compose a little bit when
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:58.599
I was a kid, you know. Really? Do you still have
01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:03.780
those works? In my head, I remember. Exactly.
01:02:03.820 --> 01:02:05.820
So it's all in your head. Just write it down.
01:02:06.380 --> 01:02:08.780
Right? I mean, it's the same for any discipline.
01:02:08.900 --> 01:02:10.920
Like if you're an author, okay, you have the
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:13.300
story. You just put it on paper. That's the hardest
01:02:13.300 --> 01:02:16.579
part of starting. So I said, okay, I'm just going
01:02:16.579 --> 01:02:18.460
to decide to write everything in my head down.
01:02:18.900 --> 01:02:21.679
And I put it down. And before I knew it, I had
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:26.139
an orchestra piece. I had solo piano music. I
01:02:26.139 --> 01:02:28.699
had vocal works, and I submitted a portfolio
01:02:28.699 --> 01:02:32.179
to the University of Hawaii because I wanted
01:02:32.179 --> 01:02:34.639
to live in a sunny place. And I said, I'll just
01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:37.699
try. And I was accepted on full scholarship with
01:02:37.699 --> 01:02:42.400
no composition training for a PhD, very competitive
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:45.280
program. They accepted me and one other person.
01:02:45.659 --> 01:02:50.539
So, you know, sometimes in life, there are barriers
01:02:50.539 --> 01:02:53.480
institutionally, but there are also. The barriers
01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:57.820
we feed ourselves, you know, with this defeatist
01:02:57.820 --> 01:03:01.079
ideology of I can't, right? We have to really
01:03:01.079 --> 01:03:04.980
empower ourselves with positivity and just start
01:03:04.980 --> 01:03:08.800
believing that, you know, I am capable. I am
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:13.360
brilliant. I am excellent. You know, if I hadn't
01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:15.179
said affirmations like these that I got from
01:03:15.179 --> 01:03:18.949
my therapist, I would not. be on the trajectory
01:03:18.949 --> 01:03:23.150
i am in life today i would still be an imposter
01:03:23.150 --> 01:03:28.710
i would still be playing it small right wow so
01:03:28.710 --> 01:03:31.269
i encourage you next next time i talk to you
01:03:31.269 --> 01:03:33.769
i want to hear one of your compositions all right
01:03:33.769 --> 01:03:38.989
i don't know i'm embarrassed but that's great
01:03:38.989 --> 01:03:42.570
then tell me what are you experienced right now
01:03:42.570 --> 01:03:46.960
in hawaii this i know I'm so jealous because
01:03:46.960 --> 01:03:50.699
as an Asian person, obviously, I don't know much
01:03:50.699 --> 01:03:54.000
about Asian music, actually, really. I'm kind
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:58.320
of a person in the sort of gray area. I'm not
01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:01.800
quite Japanese. I'm not Korean either. But I
01:04:01.800 --> 01:04:04.840
grew up, my grandmother would sing some Korean
01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:10.239
tunes and things. But, you know, so I'm very,
01:04:10.380 --> 01:04:13.400
very jealous that you get to study Asian Pacific
01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:18.260
traditions. and ethnomusicology and cross -cultural,
01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:23.239
you know, stuff at Hawaii, in Hawaii. Tell me.
01:04:24.179 --> 01:04:27.699
It's an opportunity of a lifetime, you know,
01:04:27.699 --> 01:04:31.079
and I think it's particularly this institution
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:36.119
of the University of Hawaii at Manoa can be a
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:40.300
model for other institutions around the country
01:04:40.300 --> 01:04:42.820
who want to be responsive to the traditions around
01:04:42.820 --> 01:04:46.039
them in their community. So the reason why Asia
01:04:46.039 --> 01:04:48.760
and Pacific is so big in Hawaii is because look
01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:51.980
around you, right? And what if music departments
01:04:51.980 --> 01:04:56.920
just looked around them? In Chicago and Detroit
01:04:56.920 --> 01:04:58.639
and New York, what if they just looked around
01:04:58.639 --> 01:05:01.300
and decided we are going to teach the music of
01:05:01.300 --> 01:05:05.469
the people? all of our problems would be solved
01:05:05.469 --> 01:05:09.610
all of our DEI you know as they call it all of
01:05:09.610 --> 01:05:11.969
those things would be solved in a heartbeat so
01:05:11.969 --> 01:05:14.469
anyway the program here is really special because
01:05:14.469 --> 01:05:17.730
um with just as much rigor as we're you know
01:05:17.730 --> 01:05:20.969
looking at um classical music we're looking at
01:05:20.969 --> 01:05:22.949
different classical music traditions and theories
01:05:22.949 --> 01:05:28.010
of of the global south of the world right and
01:05:28.010 --> 01:05:31.530
um This semester, I'll just give you an example.
01:05:31.610 --> 01:05:35.510
I've been learning the gagaku tradition of Japan,
01:05:35.650 --> 01:05:38.769
one of the most ancient musical traditions in
01:05:38.769 --> 01:05:41.929
the world. It's imperial Japanese chord music.
01:05:43.769 --> 01:05:47.630
So one of my favorite instruments to play is
01:05:47.630 --> 01:05:52.690
the sho. It's the mouth organ. And, you know,
01:05:52.769 --> 01:05:55.030
you're basically just circular breathing for
01:05:55.030 --> 01:05:59.900
forever, producing this beautiful. sustained
01:05:59.900 --> 01:06:02.539
sound for the other instruments to float on top
01:06:02.539 --> 01:06:08.360
of. You know, we have access to all sorts of
01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:11.099
traditional instruments at this university, the
01:06:11.099 --> 01:06:17.679
koto, the shakuhachi, the ichiriki, I mean, you
01:06:17.679 --> 01:06:20.539
name it, we have a huge ethnomusicology collection
01:06:20.539 --> 01:06:24.800
of instruments here, and we also have faculty
01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:29.599
specializing in Traditional Korean music of the
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:34.340
Sancho tradition. So this was my first time in
01:06:34.340 --> 01:06:36.159
this program writing for an Eastern instrument.
01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:39.820
I wrote for the Kaegum. Oh, my goodness. That
01:06:39.820 --> 01:06:43.860
beautiful plucked, pitch bending Korean string
01:06:43.860 --> 01:06:49.619
instrument. Wow. And, you know, it just shows
01:06:49.619 --> 01:06:51.739
you what's possible. You know, when you just
01:06:51.739 --> 01:06:54.460
decenter you up for just a second, there's so
01:06:54.460 --> 01:06:58.469
much richness out there. And you start just seeing
01:06:58.469 --> 01:07:04.250
how common we are, how we like all over the world,
01:07:04.269 --> 01:07:06.210
how we just like to make music together, how
01:07:06.210 --> 01:07:08.269
we like to tell our stories through music, how
01:07:08.269 --> 01:07:10.889
we like to honor life through music. You know,
01:07:10.909 --> 01:07:14.170
it's all the same. It's all the same. But you
01:07:14.170 --> 01:07:18.590
find your place in variety. You find your place
01:07:18.590 --> 01:07:22.130
in sort of really diversity. I don't want to
01:07:22.130 --> 01:07:24.710
sound like so cliche, but, you know, because
01:07:24.710 --> 01:07:27.289
you mentioned a little bit ago about loneliness
01:07:27.289 --> 01:07:31.030
and how isolated you felt, but then you find
01:07:31.030 --> 01:07:36.730
just a beautiful, you know, your own spot in
01:07:36.730 --> 01:07:39.050
a beautiful place like Hawaii with surrounded
01:07:39.050 --> 01:07:44.710
with this diversity of music. That's that's Haven,
01:07:44.909 --> 01:07:48.789
right? Yes. And can you imagine my. my composition
01:07:48.789 --> 01:07:52.730
here, my composition mentor professor Takumi
01:07:52.730 --> 01:07:57.570
Ito, a Japanese -American composer who has such
01:07:57.570 --> 01:08:02.389
a strong jazz background. Can you imagine, you
01:08:02.389 --> 01:08:06.170
know, just after all these years of being lost
01:08:06.170 --> 01:08:09.050
in the wilderness and never quite getting that
01:08:09.469 --> 01:08:11.849
representation I needed you know just to finally
01:08:11.849 --> 01:08:14.869
have it I mean he played Stevie Wonder in class
01:08:14.869 --> 01:08:17.109
the other day and I just was crying you know
01:08:17.109 --> 01:08:21.970
you know he's just doing all the things I've
01:08:21.970 --> 01:08:26.010
been shouting into the void to try to help you
01:08:26.010 --> 01:08:29.069
know educators get to a place of consciousness
01:08:29.069 --> 01:08:33.510
and embracing you know black music for analysis
01:08:33.510 --> 01:08:36.210
you know he's just doing that in the music theory
01:08:36.210 --> 01:08:40.149
classroom and You start realizing that, you know
01:08:40.149 --> 01:08:42.470
what, it's a new day. You know, it's a new day
01:08:42.470 --> 01:08:47.789
and change is here. You become part of change
01:08:47.789 --> 01:08:49.550
and then you look around you and you see everyone
01:08:49.550 --> 01:08:53.970
else who's also embraced it. You know, that's
01:08:53.970 --> 01:08:57.130
really nice. I think as I age, that's the most
01:08:57.130 --> 01:08:59.630
satisfying thing. Then you see the students,
01:08:59.729 --> 01:09:01.750
their curiosity and the research they bring.
01:09:02.789 --> 01:09:05.779
And you see, wow. They're also on this path.
01:09:05.899 --> 01:09:07.500
I could help them. I could help them keep their
01:09:07.500 --> 01:09:10.619
spirits in the process and help them navigate
01:09:10.619 --> 01:09:14.060
all the haters who come into their path. Give
01:09:14.060 --> 01:09:16.340
them all the tips for sustaining themselves through
01:09:16.340 --> 01:09:17.880
this work for all the years that they're going
01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:22.359
to be committed to it, right? Now, you know,
01:09:22.539 --> 01:09:27.819
I'm also, I have to be careful. Well, who cares?
01:09:29.619 --> 01:09:34.140
Because I don't like exclusive. or exclusivity
01:09:34.140 --> 01:09:38.439
or you have to really get through this narrow
01:09:38.439 --> 01:09:42.000
path to become excellent I don't believe in that
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:45.500
you know I of course to become excellent you
01:09:45.500 --> 01:09:48.880
have to work hard it's very difficult to be excellent
01:09:48.880 --> 01:09:53.659
but I think the anyone should be able to do it
01:09:53.659 --> 01:09:59.399
yeah I'm struggling I'm yeah So I'm very encouraged
01:09:59.399 --> 01:10:02.420
by this conversation right now. Well, we have
01:10:02.420 --> 01:10:07.800
to think about historical examples. We have to
01:10:07.800 --> 01:10:10.840
reimagine it. I'll take Nina Samoan's story,
01:10:10.920 --> 01:10:15.020
for example. The Curtis Institute of Music, the
01:10:15.020 --> 01:10:19.979
most highly regarded place of musical study in
01:10:19.979 --> 01:10:24.220
our country, denied one of the most... brilliant
01:10:24.220 --> 01:10:26.520
artists of the 20th century, Ms. Nina Simone.
01:10:27.640 --> 01:10:32.000
And then when you really let that fact sink in,
01:10:32.119 --> 01:10:34.399
you start to understand the need for inclusion.
01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:41.859
Right? Because who else are we denying because
01:10:41.859 --> 01:10:46.220
they're not fitting into our so limited standards
01:10:46.220 --> 01:11:30.659
of excellence that we're gatekeeping? the previous
01:11:30.659 --> 01:11:34.979
season, Leah Claiborne spoke about Arise and
01:11:34.979 --> 01:11:37.460
Shine as a large -scale project bringing together
01:11:37.460 --> 01:11:39.979
Black pianists and composers at Yamaha Artist
01:11:39.979 --> 01:11:42.659
Services. Oh, she is brilliant. And to create
01:11:42.659 --> 01:11:46.380
a living archive of music for young pianists
01:11:46.380 --> 01:11:49.960
centering representation, pedagogy, and legacy.
01:11:50.260 --> 01:11:53.479
So I've spoken with several artists involved
01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:57.020
in the Arise and Shine project, including Gina
01:11:57.020 --> 01:12:02.510
McKay. Kyle P. Walker, is he also in that project?
01:12:02.689 --> 01:12:05.630
Yeah, he's fantastic. And of course, as well
01:12:05.630 --> 01:12:11.109
as Maria Thompson Corley. So what was your role
01:12:11.109 --> 01:12:15.670
in Arise and Shine? Did you participate as a
01:12:15.670 --> 01:12:20.550
performer or composer? I was a performer. And
01:12:20.550 --> 01:12:25.829
this Arise and Shine project, which Dr. Leah
01:12:25.829 --> 01:12:29.319
Claiborne spearheaded, through her organization,
01:12:29.579 --> 01:12:32.699
Ebony Music Inc., and in partnership with the
01:12:32.699 --> 01:12:36.960
Yamaha Studio in Manhattan, right? I mean, this
01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:40.939
is the definition of thinking big, right? This
01:12:40.939 --> 01:12:44.979
came about through the support of the Sphinx
01:12:44.979 --> 01:12:49.409
organization. So she had the vision to apply
01:12:49.409 --> 01:12:51.789
for a grant and she made her case and she won
01:12:51.789 --> 01:12:54.390
that substantial funding to make this happen.
01:12:54.470 --> 01:12:57.329
This gathering of 10 pianists from across the
01:12:57.329 --> 01:13:00.729
country representing lots of different avenues,
01:13:00.930 --> 01:13:05.569
backgrounds, and places in the diaspora. We got
01:13:05.569 --> 01:13:11.949
together. And it is historic. And I think we
01:13:11.949 --> 01:13:15.569
all don't take that lightly, the fact that 10
01:13:15.569 --> 01:13:19.319
of us. will be remembered historically for gathering
01:13:19.319 --> 01:13:26.600
to honor our ancestral music, right? Nyaho was
01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:30.100
a part of this project. Karen Wallman was part
01:13:30.100 --> 01:13:33.920
of this project. Michelle Kan. Michelle Kan was
01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:37.560
part of this project, you know, speaks to just
01:13:37.560 --> 01:13:45.539
how community -minded she is. I was really honored
01:13:45.539 --> 01:13:50.470
to present music by other living composers. I
01:13:50.470 --> 01:13:55.050
played a blues piece by Dave Raglin. But what
01:13:55.050 --> 01:13:58.109
I love about this project is that it demystifies
01:13:58.109 --> 01:14:03.149
the idea that piano music is just for the advanced
01:14:03.149 --> 01:14:06.229
player. Dr. Claiborne's dissertation was about
01:14:06.229 --> 01:14:09.409
leveling piano music by Black composers because
01:14:09.409 --> 01:14:11.069
she wants to make it accessible to beginners,
01:14:11.270 --> 01:14:13.569
intermediate, advanced, and professional players.
01:14:13.970 --> 01:14:17.640
So all of the music on this album Piano Music
01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:21.840
by Black Composers for Kids is the subtitle available
01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:28.640
on Navona Records. It's really just revolutionary
01:14:28.640 --> 01:14:35.279
to how pianists and piano teachers can share
01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:39.130
this tradition with... Janice of all ages. And
01:14:39.130 --> 01:14:41.829
I'm just so proud to contribute to that effort.
01:14:41.930 --> 01:14:45.869
A publication and recording dual project. That
01:14:45.869 --> 01:14:52.810
is monumental. Every artist has a story. and
01:14:52.810 --> 01:14:55.069
every story is shaped by moments of courage.
01:14:55.409 --> 01:14:58.510
As we wrap up season six, The Piano Pod is now
01:14:58.510 --> 01:15:00.989
accepting guest nominations for season seven,
01:15:01.109 --> 01:15:04.170
launching this September. Our next season explores
01:15:04.170 --> 01:15:07.890
culture and courage, the roots that shape artists
01:15:07.890 --> 01:15:10.489
and the risks they take to move their work forward.
01:15:11.289 --> 01:15:13.750
Nominate a guest today. The link is in the show
01:15:13.750 --> 01:15:18.409
notes. Do you want to talk about your newly composed
01:15:18.409 --> 01:15:22.489
piece, Affirmation? Let's talk about it. Thank
01:15:22.489 --> 01:15:26.149
you so much for sending the music score. It's
01:15:26.149 --> 01:15:30.510
an interesting combination of bass and vocal.
01:15:31.409 --> 01:15:39.649
Yeah, so double bass, right? Flute, viola, countertenor,
01:15:39.850 --> 01:15:43.609
mezzo -soprano, and harp is the instrumentation
01:15:43.609 --> 01:15:48.369
I chose for this vocal chamber work called Affirmations.
01:15:51.109 --> 01:15:58.029
And it is, it's a large scale work. It can be
01:15:58.029 --> 01:16:01.569
as long as 25 or 30 minutes, depending on the
01:16:01.569 --> 01:16:04.029
sections that require a little bit of improvisation.
01:16:05.770 --> 01:16:10.750
But all of the text is written by one of my dear
01:16:10.750 --> 01:16:14.289
friends, a poet named Gloria Muhammad Joy. And
01:16:14.289 --> 01:16:20.139
she has written all of these affirmations. to
01:16:20.139 --> 01:16:25.220
affirm our presence in the world. So it's very
01:16:25.220 --> 01:16:29.060
positive music. It's very meditative music. And
01:16:29.060 --> 01:16:32.760
it's very reflective music. I call my compositions
01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:37.520
sound deliberations. So I like to think that
01:16:37.520 --> 01:16:40.779
it's freeing music for people as well, as they
01:16:40.779 --> 01:16:43.760
hear these vibrations through the performer's
01:16:43.760 --> 01:16:47.720
intention. So I hope that they're transformed
01:16:47.720 --> 01:16:51.119
by that experience. Wonderful. And then is it
01:16:51.119 --> 01:16:57.000
going to be recorded and premiere sometime? It
01:16:57.000 --> 01:17:02.659
will be premiered in Boston on June 6th. That's
01:17:02.659 --> 01:17:06.819
okay. So that's okay. So this episode will be
01:17:06.819 --> 01:17:11.840
out on June 2nd. So four days after. That's when
01:17:11.840 --> 01:17:16.380
you are playing for this event. Black. Declaration
01:17:16.380 --> 01:17:21.239
of Independence? Yes. I love how this organization,
01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:25.619
Castle of Our Skins, has taken that theme, which
01:17:25.619 --> 01:17:29.119
we're seeing nationally in arts programming,
01:17:29.460 --> 01:17:36.699
you know, the historical fact of the United States
01:17:36.699 --> 01:17:39.180
of America turning 250 years old. What does that
01:17:39.180 --> 01:17:42.560
mean for Black people, right? In the original
01:17:42.560 --> 01:17:46.010
Declaration of Independence. we were not really
01:17:46.010 --> 01:17:50.189
accounted for. Independence has not been historically
01:17:50.189 --> 01:17:52.630
associated with Black folks in this country,
01:17:52.770 --> 01:17:57.750
right? So what I love about this organization's
01:17:57.750 --> 01:18:01.989
work is they're responding to this corrective,
01:18:01.989 --> 01:18:06.250
correctively responding and imagining a world
01:18:06.250 --> 01:18:13.420
and a country of Black folks who... who are independent
01:18:13.420 --> 01:18:17.680
and free. I mean, just take that. If everyone
01:18:17.680 --> 01:18:20.279
just meditated on what it means to be Black and
01:18:20.279 --> 01:18:25.279
free, wow, that's something that can transform
01:18:25.279 --> 01:18:29.340
your whole worldview. Yeah, we're free. We're
01:18:29.340 --> 01:18:32.800
free. So you cannot lower dominance over us because
01:18:32.800 --> 01:18:37.779
we are free. You cannot pay us less institutionally
01:18:37.779 --> 01:18:43.270
because our labor is not. is not to be exploited,
01:18:43.550 --> 01:18:49.489
right? So I really think that that's my biggest
01:18:49.489 --> 01:18:52.029
takeaway. If anyone wants to get something from
01:18:52.029 --> 01:18:56.229
this music, I'm affirming things that should
01:18:56.229 --> 01:18:59.649
have been affirmed in that original Declaration
01:18:59.649 --> 01:19:06.029
of Independence. Yes, I know. Yeah. Wow. This
01:19:06.029 --> 01:19:08.250
is great. So Black Declaration of Independence
01:19:08.250 --> 01:19:14.239
will happen in Boston. on June 6th, which is
01:19:14.239 --> 01:19:43.399
four days after this episode is published. Let's
01:19:43.399 --> 01:19:46.119
talk about your contribution to the Cambridge
01:19:46.119 --> 01:19:49.460
Companion to Florence Price. Florence Price's
01:19:49.460 --> 01:19:56.239
piano music has just become so popular, and rightly
01:19:56.239 --> 01:20:00.760
so, and it's a wonderful thing that is happening.
01:20:01.159 --> 01:20:06.260
You know, a lot of pianists play, a lot of even
01:20:06.260 --> 01:20:10.420
students play her pieces, so I think it's wonderful
01:20:10.420 --> 01:20:15.680
just to meet her. Pieces are just now the standard
01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:18.399
repertoire. I think it's encouraging, right?
01:20:19.079 --> 01:20:22.859
Yeah, but this publication came out on March
01:20:22.859 --> 01:20:27.439
2026, which is a few months ago. So tell us about
01:20:27.439 --> 01:20:31.680
this project and what was your contribution to
01:20:31.680 --> 01:20:36.199
this publication? Yeah, thank you so much. This
01:20:36.199 --> 01:20:41.250
is a really special honor to contribute. I co
01:20:41.250 --> 01:20:44.550
-authored a chapter with a wonderful musicologist
01:20:44.550 --> 01:20:48.949
named Gwyn Brown, who is a professor of musicology
01:20:48.949 --> 01:20:51.130
at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington.
01:20:51.829 --> 01:20:57.010
And I provided a practitioner lens, and my co
01:20:57.010 --> 01:20:59.930
-author provided more of a scholarly historical
01:20:59.930 --> 01:21:04.270
lens. But we were focusing on the keyboard music
01:21:04.270 --> 01:21:09.840
of Florence Price, which includes... pedagogical
01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:16.340
piano works, concert piano works, organ works,
01:21:16.680 --> 01:21:24.859
right? So this is part of the Cambridge Companion
01:21:24.859 --> 01:21:29.220
series, which is, you know, it is an internationally
01:21:29.220 --> 01:21:33.159
renowned publication that has topics ranging
01:21:33.159 --> 01:21:37.020
from art to philosophy to all sorts of things,
01:21:37.239 --> 01:21:39.380
and it's meant as an introductory series for
01:21:39.380 --> 01:21:43.539
students and scholars alike to have verified
01:21:43.539 --> 01:21:45.880
peer -reviewed information about a certain topic
01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:51.220
or historical figure. So even the fact that Price
01:21:51.220 --> 01:21:56.840
is now positioned canonically to enter the Cambridge
01:21:56.840 --> 01:22:01.960
Companion series speaks to the work Price scholars
01:22:01.960 --> 01:22:06.840
have been doing. in the last couple of decades.
01:22:07.300 --> 01:22:12.699
And the preeminent scholar of Price is Dr. Samantha
01:22:12.699 --> 01:22:17.859
Egge. And she has released numerous publications
01:22:17.859 --> 01:22:24.020
on the topic of Price, which follows the legacy
01:22:24.020 --> 01:22:27.859
of people like Ray Linda Brown, the late musicologist
01:22:27.859 --> 01:22:32.260
who authored a pioneering biography on this composer.
01:22:33.350 --> 01:22:42.569
which I highly recommend. So Dr. Ege is one of
01:22:42.569 --> 01:22:45.890
the most community -minded scholars that I've
01:22:45.890 --> 01:22:49.850
had the chance to meet. She herself is a wonderful
01:22:49.850 --> 01:22:55.130
pianist, and she's recorded much of Price's music.
01:22:55.289 --> 01:23:00.220
She's performed. She's taught. and written about
01:23:00.220 --> 01:23:03.340
Price's music, but for her to get together a
01:23:03.340 --> 01:23:08.039
community of scholars in all different facets
01:23:08.039 --> 01:23:14.039
of their careers to write critical essays on
01:23:14.039 --> 01:23:17.979
Price's work. Again, we're positioning her in
01:23:17.979 --> 01:23:22.979
her rightful domain. How many scholarly publications
01:23:22.979 --> 01:23:29.340
are there of Haydn compared to Black female composer
01:23:29.340 --> 01:23:32.760
like Florence Price. That should speak for itself.
01:23:33.140 --> 01:23:37.279
Just look at the numbers, right? In recent years,
01:23:37.399 --> 01:23:43.680
Price has been canonized without a doubt, right?
01:23:44.060 --> 01:23:49.800
Without a doubt, she is on programs regularly.
01:23:49.840 --> 01:23:54.939
She's on degree recitals. She's being studied
01:23:54.939 --> 01:24:00.439
at a high level. And with this increased attention,
01:24:00.979 --> 01:24:06.140
it is really important for those interpreters
01:24:06.140 --> 01:24:12.380
to rely on scholarly materials to do her music
01:24:12.380 --> 01:24:15.399
justice. I mean, how are you going to play Price
01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:18.220
without knowing what a juba dance is, for example?
01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:24.100
Right? How? How can you do that with any sense
01:24:24.100 --> 01:24:26.199
of authenticity in the same way that you would
01:24:26.199 --> 01:24:30.090
try to play you know, a box suite without knowing
01:24:30.090 --> 01:24:34.329
French -style ornamentation, you know? Why would
01:24:34.329 --> 01:24:38.109
you feel compelled to delve into any performance
01:24:38.109 --> 01:24:41.270
practice without having the tools under your
01:24:41.270 --> 01:24:46.010
belt to do that, right? So this Cambridge Companion
01:24:46.010 --> 01:24:49.550
is a tool, it is a resource for scholars and
01:24:49.550 --> 01:24:55.229
practitioners. And again, Samantha Ege, wow.
01:24:56.359 --> 01:24:58.760
The contributors that she has assembled for this
01:24:58.760 --> 01:25:01.340
is going to make you think about Price in really
01:25:01.340 --> 01:25:07.579
new and special ways. Even as I share this with
01:25:07.579 --> 01:25:10.039
you, I'm thinking about her most recent publication
01:25:10.039 --> 01:25:17.199
of The Four Fantasy Negras by Price, which is
01:25:17.199 --> 01:25:22.279
now available, I believe. So these are Price's
01:25:22.279 --> 01:25:27.810
most... colorful large -scale piano compositions
01:25:27.810 --> 01:25:33.510
now available in one compilation score edited
01:25:33.510 --> 01:25:37.149
with fingerings and pedal markings appropriate
01:25:37.149 --> 01:25:40.430
for the early advanced student and the professional
01:25:40.430 --> 01:25:47.670
alike. So what an honor to contribute to this
01:25:47.670 --> 01:25:50.710
Price Scholar community that Dr. Ege is cultivating
01:25:50.710 --> 01:25:58.340
internationally. So, who is Florence Price to
01:25:58.340 --> 01:26:13.239
you, then? Florence Price to me? She's someone
01:26:13.239 --> 01:26:18.420
who dreams. You know, there's so many dreamy
01:26:18.420 --> 01:26:23.310
qualities about her music. From her lush harmonic
01:26:23.310 --> 01:26:27.430
language to her moments of impressionism. You
01:26:27.430 --> 01:26:35.130
know, lushness. This musical texture of lush
01:26:35.130 --> 01:26:40.550
harmony that she employs. But also, just the
01:26:40.550 --> 01:26:42.829
fact that she dreamed these compositions into
01:26:42.829 --> 01:26:47.920
creation. And... She did it for a living. She
01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:50.899
dreamed for a living. You know, when she accompanied
01:26:50.899 --> 01:26:55.399
silent films on the organ, she was looking at
01:26:55.399 --> 01:26:59.619
a scene and dreaming a musical landscape around
01:26:59.619 --> 01:27:04.859
them, right? And I think that's so important
01:27:04.859 --> 01:27:08.180
for Black women to dream and to have the resources
01:27:08.180 --> 01:27:10.760
and invitation and ease around them to dream
01:27:10.760 --> 01:27:16.199
because look what comes of it. You know, Everyone
01:27:16.199 --> 01:27:21.520
knows the famous story of how her symphony came
01:27:21.520 --> 01:27:24.060
to be premiered and how she was the first Black
01:27:24.060 --> 01:27:25.979
woman to have her symphony premiered in the United
01:27:25.979 --> 01:27:31.439
States. But in her keyboard music, we find almost
01:27:31.439 --> 01:27:35.800
orchestral textures. She didn't wait for the
01:27:35.800 --> 01:27:39.000
opportunity. She dreamed orchestral music at
01:27:39.000 --> 01:27:44.100
the keyboard. That's amazing to me. You know?
01:27:44.670 --> 01:27:51.850
She was innovating on her own terms. And I just
01:27:51.850 --> 01:27:53.510
think it's really important that we remember
01:27:53.510 --> 01:27:59.229
her as someone in every stage of her career who
01:27:59.229 --> 01:28:03.109
was dreaming for herself and for her people.
01:28:04.069 --> 01:28:07.569
Well, thank you. We're almost coming to an end,
01:28:07.649 --> 01:28:11.770
but just a few more questions. So you said...
01:28:12.010 --> 01:28:14.449
It's a wonderful thing to move differently through
01:28:14.449 --> 01:28:17.689
the world and to spend life honoring what is
01:28:17.689 --> 01:28:21.569
most important to you. That's your writing. Now,
01:28:21.609 --> 01:28:25.170
what does that actually require, especially in
01:28:25.170 --> 01:28:30.750
the world that often rewards conformity? Well,
01:28:31.029 --> 01:28:34.050
I would take, if I may, I would take the work
01:28:34.050 --> 01:28:37.369
you're doing as a perfect example of this. through
01:28:37.369 --> 01:28:39.729
the piano pod, you know, providing a platform
01:28:39.729 --> 01:28:42.390
for pianists to have genuine conversations like
01:28:42.390 --> 01:28:44.949
these and really getting to the heart of the
01:28:44.949 --> 01:28:47.770
matter and going into our purpose. I've had a
01:28:47.770 --> 01:28:50.970
chance to listen to a few episodes and I'm always
01:28:50.970 --> 01:28:57.250
just struck afterwards, like, wow, this, when
01:28:57.250 --> 01:28:59.649
do we have the chance to hear the behind the
01:28:59.649 --> 01:29:03.189
scenes and to hear people's intentionality behind
01:29:03.189 --> 01:29:07.319
what they're doing? So I think the platform you
01:29:07.319 --> 01:29:09.359
provided is so empowering to that point. You
01:29:09.359 --> 01:29:12.680
know, we're all navigating this industry in such
01:29:12.680 --> 01:29:17.100
different ways to keep our souls intact and to
01:29:17.100 --> 01:29:20.720
keep our bank accounts, right? Somewhat, yeah.
01:29:21.079 --> 01:29:23.439
Right, right, right. You know, it's all sacrifices,
01:29:23.539 --> 01:29:28.340
but behind this is a real sense of purpose, right?
01:29:31.399 --> 01:29:34.500
Yeah, how do you empower someone to have the
01:29:34.500 --> 01:29:40.380
courage to move through in their own way? You
01:29:40.380 --> 01:29:43.340
know, no matter their background, no matter their,
01:29:43.420 --> 01:29:52.960
you know, no matter their way of socializing,
01:29:53.000 --> 01:29:56.880
you know, their neurodiversity, whatever it is.
01:29:58.560 --> 01:30:01.699
Yeah. What are we beyond the instrument? What
01:30:01.699 --> 01:30:03.960
is our legacy? How will we be remembered? What
01:30:03.960 --> 01:30:07.180
are we leaving behind? I think these are important
01:30:07.180 --> 01:30:14.840
questions for any artists. And, you know, specifically
01:30:14.840 --> 01:30:18.960
as a Black artist, these are questions we interrogate
01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:24.199
on a daily basis. You know, we don't always have
01:30:24.199 --> 01:30:32.069
the privilege to just waste opportunities. We
01:30:32.069 --> 01:30:35.210
have to go straight to what matters. You know,
01:30:35.210 --> 01:30:37.890
if we have a platform, we use it to lift others
01:30:37.890 --> 01:30:41.170
up, or we use it to give our best, highest form
01:30:41.170 --> 01:30:43.729
of expression. You know, I was just listening
01:30:43.729 --> 01:30:46.729
to the music of another pianist, Armenta Hummings,
01:30:46.949 --> 01:30:50.210
who founded the Gateways Music Festival, and
01:30:50.210 --> 01:30:54.970
I heard her recital from 1989, and I really felt
01:30:54.970 --> 01:30:57.409
that every note that she played, every phrase
01:30:57.409 --> 01:31:01.310
that she delivered, It was life or death that
01:31:01.310 --> 01:31:05.289
came from a place of, you know, I'm going to
01:31:05.289 --> 01:31:09.329
present this to the highest level possible. So
01:31:09.329 --> 01:31:12.170
that goes way beyond just the standards that
01:31:12.170 --> 01:31:16.529
they give us. Those are informed, again, ancestrally,
01:31:16.609 --> 01:31:19.810
those are informed by this idea of Black excellence.
01:31:20.930 --> 01:31:24.010
And, you know, as we look at the contributions
01:31:24.010 --> 01:31:27.449
of Black scholars, Black female scholars, performers,
01:31:27.829 --> 01:31:32.909
artists. That's the common denominator. If you
01:31:32.909 --> 01:31:35.449
look close enough, that's always going to be
01:31:35.449 --> 01:31:39.670
the common thread. Where do you think the piano
01:31:39.670 --> 01:31:42.569
world is now when it comes to representation
01:31:42.569 --> 01:31:47.130
and repertoire? How are you doing? Are we doing
01:31:47.130 --> 01:31:52.670
better? Sure. Yay. Sure. I mean, at the end of
01:31:52.670 --> 01:31:56.430
the day, you have to believe what makes you show
01:31:56.430 --> 01:32:00.359
up as your best self the next day. If you look
01:32:00.359 --> 01:32:06.159
around you and, you know, you're seeing an absence,
01:32:06.539 --> 01:32:11.460
that can be very triggering and traumatic. Or
01:32:11.460 --> 01:32:14.220
you could see the one person nearby and you could
01:32:14.220 --> 01:32:17.300
reach out and spend your energy in doing the
01:32:17.300 --> 01:32:20.739
best you can for that one person, right? So is
01:32:20.739 --> 01:32:25.539
it to where we need? No, because we all have
01:32:25.539 --> 01:32:28.300
different standards of what tomorrow looks like.
01:32:28.890 --> 01:32:34.350
My tomorrow looks like integration. Yeah, I still
01:32:34.350 --> 01:32:37.130
use the word integration in the year 2026 because
01:32:37.130 --> 01:32:40.649
we know the state of our field and the racial
01:32:40.649 --> 01:32:43.189
inequities, right? It's not a secret after 2020.
01:32:44.149 --> 01:32:52.090
The cat's out of the bag, guys. You know, if
01:32:52.090 --> 01:32:56.229
you haven't spent much time dreaming about what
01:32:56.229 --> 01:33:03.069
it looks like. to, in my example, go to class
01:33:03.069 --> 01:33:09.229
with a scholar of Filipino indigenous music sitting
01:33:09.229 --> 01:33:15.729
right next to you and going to class and seeing
01:33:15.729 --> 01:33:23.350
the beautiful diversity of musical talent around
01:33:23.350 --> 01:33:28.680
you. I think you're just missing out. And that
01:33:28.680 --> 01:33:32.460
deserves empathy. And then that's where you lean
01:33:32.460 --> 01:33:35.260
into your own kuleana, your own sense of purpose
01:33:35.260 --> 01:33:38.300
and responsibility. And you fill in the gap.
01:33:39.659 --> 01:33:41.479
And you could either do that with resentment.
01:33:44.199 --> 01:33:46.500
And, of course, you know, everybody gets burnt
01:33:46.500 --> 01:33:48.359
out. Or you could do that with a spirit of joy.
01:33:50.239 --> 01:33:52.960
And in this chapter of my life, I'm going to
01:33:52.960 --> 01:33:58.010
do it joyously. And I'm going to continue amplifying
01:33:58.010 --> 01:34:01.449
the resources around me. That's how I'm dealing
01:34:01.449 --> 01:34:05.170
with the crazy environment. That's good though.
01:34:05.449 --> 01:34:08.409
Yeah. You have such a good soul. Your heart is
01:34:08.409 --> 01:34:10.529
in the right place. That's what it is. Yeah.
01:34:11.630 --> 01:34:16.229
So the one or two, one more. So you're part of
01:34:16.229 --> 01:34:19.069
the next generation of composers. I mean, you're
01:34:19.069 --> 01:34:22.329
in the club, Joe. Yeah. As you think about your
01:34:22.329 --> 01:34:25.930
own path, how do you want your. How do you want
01:34:25.930 --> 01:34:28.449
to shape your artistry and legacy? We talked
01:34:28.449 --> 01:34:30.989
about legacy, so now it's your turn. What's your
01:34:30.989 --> 01:34:32.869
legacy going to be like? I mean, what do you
01:34:32.869 --> 01:34:41.050
want it to be? You know, I've hustled for so
01:34:41.050 --> 01:34:46.109
long, and I'm just at the point where if someone
01:34:46.109 --> 01:34:48.130
is interested in my music, that's a wonderful
01:34:48.130 --> 01:34:53.050
honor. But I want to move with ease for the rest
01:34:53.050 --> 01:34:58.260
of my adult life. Okay, I want to enjoy some
01:34:58.260 --> 01:35:02.939
sunshine. I want to go on a walk. I think composers
01:35:02.939 --> 01:35:07.880
need spaciousness to create. Any creative needs
01:35:07.880 --> 01:35:11.500
a sense of ease to appreciate the beauty around
01:35:11.500 --> 01:35:15.479
them to transmit into their own original piece,
01:35:15.600 --> 01:35:22.779
right? So I'm spending less time slowing down
01:35:22.779 --> 01:35:28.079
and pumping out less. Quality versus quantity.
01:35:30.300 --> 01:35:32.619
And, you know, if someone approaches me and they
01:35:32.619 --> 01:35:35.140
say, okay, I feel like I'm in alignment with
01:35:35.140 --> 01:35:36.800
your artistic practice, with your philosophy.
01:35:36.840 --> 01:35:39.939
I would like to champion your music. Would you
01:35:39.939 --> 01:35:41.840
please give me the permission to play one of
01:35:41.840 --> 01:35:44.340
your scores? Or can we collaborate? Or I would
01:35:44.340 --> 01:35:46.840
like to commission you. Okay, that's a conversation
01:35:46.840 --> 01:35:53.439
from a place that energizes me. Right? There's
01:35:53.439 --> 01:35:56.500
a million wonderful composers in the world to
01:35:56.500 --> 01:36:00.539
champion, right? Every artist, every pianist,
01:36:00.659 --> 01:36:05.739
look for places of alignment and lean in. And
01:36:05.739 --> 01:36:07.659
I promise it's going to be such a transformative
01:36:07.659 --> 01:36:10.140
experience for both parties. You're going to
01:36:10.140 --> 01:36:15.079
set each other free. Wow. That's my strategy
01:36:15.079 --> 01:36:18.319
to keep my longevity and avoid burnout in this
01:36:18.319 --> 01:36:21.409
next chapter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're doing
01:36:21.409 --> 01:36:25.710
just fine. You're doing great. So what's next
01:36:25.710 --> 01:36:28.489
for you? So you have this Black Declaration of
01:36:28.489 --> 01:36:33.189
Independence happening on June 6th. But is there
01:36:33.189 --> 01:36:37.449
anything else you can share that you're maybe
01:36:37.449 --> 01:36:45.010
working towards or working for? Hmm. Like composing
01:36:45.010 --> 01:36:48.590
opera or something? You know, I'm pausing because,
01:36:48.649 --> 01:36:50.710
you know, you have those intrusive thoughts come
01:36:50.710 --> 01:36:53.489
into your head. I was thinking about a similar
01:36:53.489 --> 01:36:56.689
question to ask Aretha Franklin. And she was
01:36:56.689 --> 01:37:00.630
just, her response was like, I'm thinking about
01:37:00.630 --> 01:37:02.810
what I'm making for dinner tomorrow. I've seen
01:37:02.810 --> 01:37:07.689
the video. Yes. It scares me every time. I'm
01:37:07.689 --> 01:37:10.569
just like, I'm just another normal human being.
01:37:10.590 --> 01:37:13.199
If you saw me on the street. You wouldn't know
01:37:13.199 --> 01:37:15.760
I'm a musician. I'm worried about the same thing.
01:37:15.859 --> 01:37:18.359
I'm behind on laundry. I need to file my taxes
01:37:18.359 --> 01:37:23.460
and I'm hungry. Like, you know what I mean? Oh,
01:37:23.699 --> 01:37:26.939
I've seen it. Oh, she's incredible. Oh, I love
01:37:26.939 --> 01:37:31.619
her. I love her. Yeah. So is that your answer?
01:37:32.420 --> 01:37:36.939
That's my answer. Okay, great. What spicy food
01:37:36.939 --> 01:37:40.340
can I eat next? Yeah. So beyond this conversation,
01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:42.560
what is the best way for my viewers and listeners
01:37:42.560 --> 01:37:45.079
to stay connected with you? Is it through Instagram?
01:37:45.140 --> 01:37:48.960
Because I tried to look for you through a website,
01:37:49.199 --> 01:37:51.600
but I couldn't find it. So I think it's Instagram.
01:37:51.699 --> 01:37:56.600
Oh, sure. Yeah. Instagram, a handle. I'm a millennial
01:37:56.600 --> 01:37:59.479
through and through. So shoot me a DM. Sound
01:37:59.479 --> 01:38:02.939
Liberator. Sound Liberator. All right. Sounds
01:38:02.939 --> 01:38:24.000
good. Before I let you go, we have one more thing
01:38:24.000 --> 01:38:26.840
and that's the rapid fire questions. Now we take
01:38:26.840 --> 01:38:29.779
this segment very seriously. You've shared your
01:38:29.779 --> 01:38:32.500
stories and expertise today, but these questions
01:38:32.500 --> 01:38:36.439
carefully curated by our team, which is me, will
01:38:36.439 --> 01:38:39.100
give our listeners a glimpse into who you truly
01:38:39.100 --> 01:38:42.739
are. So I want you to answer each question. With
01:38:42.739 --> 01:38:45.239
the shortest response as possible, no explanation
01:38:45.239 --> 01:38:49.979
is necessary, okay? Number one, what is your
01:38:49.979 --> 01:38:55.579
comfort food? The Thai noodles. The Thai noodles
01:38:55.579 --> 01:38:59.020
are the best noodles. How do you like your coffee
01:38:59.020 --> 01:39:02.039
in the morning? Black, black, blackity black.
01:39:02.319 --> 01:39:07.899
All right. That's good. Cats or dogs? Cats, even
01:39:07.899 --> 01:39:15.199
though I'm allergic. Sunrise or sunset? Dusk.
01:39:16.840 --> 01:39:23.520
Beautiful. Summer or winter? Summer. Now, what
01:39:23.520 --> 01:39:26.039
skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't
01:39:26.039 --> 01:39:30.979
had a chance to? Swimming. Oh, you're in Hawaii,
01:39:31.180 --> 01:39:34.359
so that's great. You can swim every morning.
01:39:35.359 --> 01:39:39.859
What is your word or words to live by? Aloha.
01:39:40.809 --> 01:39:44.470
Cute. Favorite venue you have ever performed
01:39:44.470 --> 01:39:48.310
in or maybe a dream venue? The Dubai Opera House.
01:39:49.390 --> 01:39:52.170
What is the most important quality you look for
01:39:52.170 --> 01:39:58.550
in other people? Integrity. Empathy. Name a composer
01:39:58.550 --> 01:40:03.149
you wish more people knew about. Yukimi -san.
01:40:04.630 --> 01:40:11.579
No. All of the listeners start harassing these
01:40:11.579 --> 01:40:13.600
scores. We're going to make it happen. Oh, my
01:40:13.600 --> 01:40:18.899
God. Come together. Rise up, people. I did not
01:40:18.899 --> 01:40:22.100
expect that. Okay. I better do something. All
01:40:22.100 --> 01:40:26.140
right. Name one piece in your current playlist.
01:40:27.180 --> 01:40:31.159
Always down to listen to Kendrick. If you could
01:40:31.159 --> 01:40:33.260
go back and give your younger self one piece
01:40:33.260 --> 01:40:39.159
of advice, what would it be? Chill. Good one.
01:40:39.859 --> 01:40:42.800
Last one. Fill in the blank. Music is blank.
01:40:43.579 --> 01:40:48.539
Beautiful. That's perfect. Joe, thank you so
01:40:48.539 --> 01:40:50.779
much for joining us today and sharing your artistry,
01:40:50.779 --> 01:40:53.380
your vision, and the depth of your work with
01:40:53.380 --> 01:40:55.979
us. And it has been a real pleasure having you
01:40:55.979 --> 01:40:58.239
on the show. And to our listeners, I encourage
01:40:58.239 --> 01:41:01.520
you to explore. Joe's work, his performances,
01:41:01.699 --> 01:41:04.060
compositions, and ongoing projects that continue
01:41:04.060 --> 01:41:07.180
to expand the landscape of classical music. The
01:41:07.180 --> 01:41:10.220
best way to stay connected is through his Instagram
01:41:10.220 --> 01:41:14.460
account at soundliberator. And you can also find
01:41:14.460 --> 01:41:18.100
more in the links in our show notes. And to everyone
01:41:18.100 --> 01:41:20.199
listening, thank you for spending this time with
01:41:20.199 --> 01:41:22.359
us. If this conversation resonates with you,
01:41:22.439 --> 01:41:25.659
please like. comment, and tag us at The Piano
01:41:25.659 --> 01:41:28.539
Pod. Thanks for listening or watching. We will
01:41:28.539 --> 01:41:30.520
see you next time on The Piano Pod. Thank you.
01:41:30.680 --> 01:41:33.960
Thank you, Joe, so much. Mahalo.