EP 3:41 Chemsex Recovery: The Breakthrough Moment with Domtopics

WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:02.720
Because there's as you've said there, you can't broadstroke it.
00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:03.600
It can't be.
00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:08.480
I know there are some people where if you do use again, that's it, you're gone.
00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:09.919
Like it just grabs you.
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:10.960
Whatever it is.
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:15.439
Like you basically spend every day fighting against whatever it is to pull you back.
00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:18.800
And then if you give in, it will, you can so easily get lost to it.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.559
And then there are other people where actually, no, you just get super carried away.
00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:24.640
You need to like pull back, reassess.
00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:25.760
Chemsex.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:33.439
Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:42.799
Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:51.920
Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:54.640
All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Cod Podcast.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:56.479
Not CODCAS Podcast.
00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:58.079
I'm glad that you're here.
00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:04.239
Appreciate you choosing this podcast to uh take up your time because your time is valuable.
00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:09.040
Um I appreciate all the new listeners and all the faithful ones.
00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:12.640
Our numbers continue to grow, and I really appreciate that.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:16.000
And we're really growing in London and in Europe.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:32.799
And so I'm happy today to feature someone who lives in London, um, who I met through Instagram, through the the the web of chemsex uh workers and chemsex advocates, uh Dom, Dom Topics, we'll call it.
00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:35.519
Uh Dom Top Dom Top X.
00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:42.079
Um But Dom is uh Dom is someone I met through Instagram, and then we actually met in person.
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:51.280
We had uh a nice coffee together in London at a cute little coffee shop of of the many, many that are there, um, and really hit it off.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:02:00.319
And I think that Dom brings a unique perspective um about his chemsex use uh and and an inspiring story.
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:02.480
And so I hope that you will enjoy today.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:08.479
You guys really like the real life stories of people who have used and have quit.
00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:19.520
Um, and so I want to offer that more, but I want to tell you it can be a challenge to get people to share their story because there is such a heavy stigma around chemsex use.
00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:26.639
Um you know, it's hard for people to go on a public forum and talk about it, especially depending on what their job might be.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:31.599
So just understand that I'm trying, that I do want to get more stories in.
00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:33.520
Um, but again, it's challenging.
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:42.319
But if you have a story and you want to offer, you want to come on the podcast and tell us your story, even if you're still using and trying to stop, that's fine.
00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:43.840
We I want to hear on all.
00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:47.919
I want to hear every perspective, and I think the listeners do too.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:53.360
So let's, without further ado, I'm gonna let Dom introduce himself and we'll get going here.
00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:56.719
Well, hello, thank you so much for that introduction.
00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:59.360
And yes, it was absolutely lovely meeting you.
00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:01.599
I think we went to a gorgeous little coffee shop.
00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:07.280
I think one of the things that I loved about it was from the second we sat down, we just did not stop talking.
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.479
It was I think we were on a time limit as well, weren't we?
00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:12.479
And I was like, so much more to say.
00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:18.400
So yeah, I'm so glad that we are here again, uh, being able to talk this out properly.
00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:23.199
Um, but yes, I guess for those that may not be familiar with me, I'm Don, Don Topics.
00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:24.319
Obviously, a stage name.
00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:26.080
My parents were not that foolish.
00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:28.879
Um I mean, I am called Dom.
00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:29.919
That is on my birth certificate.
00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:30.719
Yeah, right, yeah, right.
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:31.759
Yeah, Topics is not.
00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:34.719
If you ever meet someone whose surname is Topics, please send them away.
00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:36.879
I'd love to love to chat that out.
00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:48.159
Uh, but no, I'm uh I'd say I'm more predominantly known as a DJ, so I obviously have an entire history and career and life within nightlife, uh, specifically in London.
00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:58.960
But I've also been fortunate enough to travel pretty internationally, uh, both through DJing and the other work that I do, which is I volunteer with an organization called Impulse, which I've been with for over 10 years.
00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:02.639
Our ethos is to engage, connect, and support gay men globally.
00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:09.840
Um, and we have four main pillars, which is substance use, harm reduction, sexual health, mental health, and social justice issues.
00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:12.319
Uh, within my role of that, again, I've been really fortunate.
00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:14.319
I've worked my way up into a more global role now.
00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.160
So I currently oversee London, New York, and Cape Town.
00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:22.800
I've also previously overseen our two Indian chapters, which have been Mumbai and New Delhi.
00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:38.959
So I've been super fortunate to travel a lot and yeah, see Chemsex in all its glory and all its gore, and um how it impacts uh and affects and how it is also navigated in so many different areas of the world.
00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:52.800
And yeah, I definitely have a very um, I'd say my passion project more so than anything is substance use harm reduction and I guess the psychology and the socialism that goes into chemsex and why we do it and how we do it.
00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:55.839
I'm shit at the uh the science of how a drug works.
00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:57.120
I can just never take that in.
00:04:57.279 --> 00:04:58.240
But I try.
00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:06.800
But yeah, to understand why you're doing them, yeah, I've got a pretty good handle on that, or at least a keen uh curiosity to try and understand.
00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:08.480
Yeah.
00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.759
I'm with you on that.
00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:19.839
I mean, a lot of people love the research and they can nerd out about the the you know the how the brain works and the dope effects of dopamine and serotonin and all that kind of stuff.
00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:30.319
For me, like you said, like okay, great, but I don't think the brain, I don't think brain research now understands chemsex.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:32.000
And we were getting there.
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.439
Um, you know, we I had um Stephen Dr.
00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:37.680
Stephen, I forgot his last name.
00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:40.480
Uh uh chemsex brain, he's on on Instagram.
00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:56.079
Uh uh, you probably know him, I don't know if you do, but he's doing some major research on the brain in terms of how chemsex affects it and why some people are, you know, can't stop, and so why some people can, and there's those kinds of questions, and how long does it take to heal?
00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:01.199
I think all of that is is going to be interesting to see how it unfolds.
00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:04.240
But you know, like you're saying, why are we doing it?
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:08.800
And why is our chemsex the subculture of it?
00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.720
Why have we as gay men created an entire subculture?
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:24.720
And you know, to me, that's a bigger question is why what's wrong with it, what's wrong, but what's missing from our current main culture that we have to create a subculture?
00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:26.720
Have you ever thought about that?
00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:28.319
Or do you think I'm off here?
00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:31.759
No, yeah, I think you've got no what are you saying, Don?
00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:37.759
All my friends do chems, really the culture of stuff.
00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:41.120
No, um, yeah, I think that's such an interesting point.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:45.120
I can't say I've ever really delved into it.
00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:56.319
I guess for me, because like so much of my living is in nightlife culture, which is also so interwoven with chems, with sex, with chem sex.
00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:56.879
Yeah.
00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:58.800
Um and then obviously so much that I do.
00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:07.360
I mean, I've I came to learn this a good couple of years ago, where you know, I just remember I would talk about chemsex or substance uses or even how certain drugs work.
00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:10.720
And then as I was saying it, I was like, Oh, I know quite a lot.
00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:11.759
I'm saying quite a bit here.
00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.000
And I'd say it to people, like, oh, you know.
00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:16.560
And they would be like, What are you saying?
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:24.560
And then suddenly you're like, oh, I guess my reality and my knowledge isn't the same as what other people are seeing.
00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.160
And that was where I really came to like, okay, I'm just gonna talk about it then.
00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:33.199
Because what I know, what I've experienced, what I what I can do might help someone else out there.
00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:46.800
Um, I mean, I'm sure even a small example here is there's still plenty of people where you know you talk about pep or prep or even doxypep usage, and people still don't know what it is or how it works, and you know, how you should be doing it.
00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.160
Even the other day, someone was wasn't even aware of event-based.
00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:52.720
They were like, Oh, someone's telling me to take it really stupidly.
00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.120
I was like, Well, stupid me.
00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:56.800
But I think, yeah.
00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:05.519
Yeah, I think you you made a really good point earlier when you were saying about um something which I've forgotten.
00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:07.759
But I will definitely come back to it.
00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:08.879
A good point.
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:11.439
If we have to rewind.
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:13.360
Um, well, I was interested.
00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.879
There's a lot of questions that come up in what you were saying when you introduced yourself.
00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:25.120
And can you tell us, because we've been talking about harm reduction a lot here, but what is your your personal experience with harm reduction?
00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.000
What do you think works and why?
00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.759
It's such a broad question, I guess, really, isn't it?
00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:36.240
Like there's so many different avenues I could go down with that.
00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:41.759
Um I mean, if we look at what harm reduction is, it's to me, it's not telling people to stop.
00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:42.480
It's really not.
00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:44.240
It's meeting the where they're at.
00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:44.559
Yeah.
00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:47.039
Um, and that's a huge thing that we do with impulse.
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:52.639
We are we're very much that, I guess, the more signposters, I would always say.
00:08:52.720 --> 00:09:00.720
Like, we're not there to be like, you know, uh it's not like you're taking drugs, here's how you need to stop, or you're having sex, you must always use a condom.
00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:01.120
No.
00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:02.639
Meeting people where they really are.
00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.759
So with harm reduction, that is much more like.
00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:09.440
I mean, I remember my personal usage.
00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:16.159
Uh I probably didn't really start taking chems properly until I was about 22, 23, when I first moved to London.
00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:17.200
Loved it.
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:18.399
Best time of my life.
00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:19.120
It was great.
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:21.200
I finally found like a queer community.
00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:24.480
I loved being gay, I was getting loads of sex, it was amazing.
00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:25.600
Like, great.
00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:41.120
And I remember I was taking G, and I remember the first time I ever did it, and what was interesting, I asked a few other people about this, and so many people had a similar experience where it was just an older gay guy at an actor at a party somewhere was like, Here, just have this, you'll know it.
00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:42.000
And that was it.
00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:46.879
No further information as to what it did or anything like that.
00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:51.039
And you know, young, naive, interested, curious, whatever, you just did it.
00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:56.879
And I remember I did it for about three months, and then one Monday I was like, oh, I can still taste it this Monday.
00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:58.639
I'm just gonna take this weekend off.
00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:00.799
And I never touched it again.
00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.759
And it wasn't even a conscious choice to never touch it again.
00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:12.720
It was I guess I took that weekend off, and there was definitely a bit of like superiority, like I don't need it.
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:29.120
And then, you know, watching all my friends like overdosing on it every now and then, not to death, but to uh losing consciousness, losing control of their limbs, like um, watching that happen and just being a bit like, oh, oh, like I'm not gonna get like that.
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:43.440
Like, and then then just kind of reflecting upon how I felt using some of it, like knowing that I definitely slept with guys or done more with guys that I really had no interest in without it, and was a bit like, ooh, I might regret that.
00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:53.440
Um, yeah, and it just over that time I just learned more about it and then was like, okay, it's not, I don't think it's of an interest to me.
00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:57.440
And yeah, it's just never come back into the hemisphere for me, I guess.
00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.799
So I guess to me, like harm reduction is education, okay?
00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:06.159
It's understanding more, it's having more knowledge on what you're doing, why you're doing it, how to use it.
00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:13.519
Because we know, like with G in particular as an example, you shouldn't be mixing it with any other downers, definitely not alcohol.
00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:18.639
It needs to be timed, it needs to be measured, it needs to be mixed with the right things when you're drinking it.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.840
I mean, that to me straight away is just red flag after red flag.
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:40.159
There's a big difference between, you know, a big difference between like running into a toilet cubicle with some cute boy or like with a mate and having a little bump of whatever that you're like, and then going back out onto the dance floor and then actually like I mean, I don't think any gay man now can hear the iPhone alarm go off and not be triggered to fight.
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:44.559
Those bells are just it doesn't matter what environment you're in.
00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:45.279
Yeah.
00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:46.399
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:46.879
That's true.
00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:47.440
Yes.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:57.759
Yeah, so I I think it's important, and I and I I love what's happening in terms of chemsex, and the discussion is growing, the dialogue is growing, the awareness is growing.
00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:58.639
You can see it.
00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:03.919
If you could just see it on Instagram, there's more and more in accounts, there's more people talking about it.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:04.480
Yes, you know.
00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:05.919
I've noticed that.
00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.480
There's more, you know, of of me.
00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:14.559
Like there's guys coming out saying, I want to be a chemsex coach, you know, and there's talking about chemsex, which is great.
00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.360
Bring it on because there's enough to go around, right?
00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:23.919
But the thing is, is that just like with you said this older man gave you G and said, Here you go.
00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.559
That story is so true over and over and over with so many people.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.240
And just like with me, here's the pipe, you know, use it.
00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:38.799
For me, it was given to me by a younger, hot guy who wanted to fuck.
00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:39.360
Right?
00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.679
So it was, I'm not gonna say no.
00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.279
I don't know what this, you know, sure, okay, you know, let's smoke it.
00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:53.919
And and so if somebody would have said, you know, if I would have known beforehand, like this is what meth does.
00:12:54.159 --> 00:13:05.600
Like, not not like you're saying, not say don't do it, it's bad, but let me give you some balanced information on these are the these are the statistics, this is what's going to happen.
00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.879
By the way, you're not going to probably sleep for another two days.
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:10.000
You know, so give me.
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:16.000
Do you have to go to work tomorrow?
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:17.519
Because if you do, you're not going.
00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:18.480
Or you shouldn't.
00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:20.159
Right.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:32.240
I think, you know, not that's not going to 100% cause somebody to not do it, but it would have given me, I think, a second thought, especially in my sober mind.
00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.360
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely been my stance.
00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:41.840
You know, I there was, I mean, as I said, I've not taken G for, you know, shockingly, I'm not 22, 23 anymore.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.320
So let's say a couple of years.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:52.399
Um, but I still very much moved within the chemsex world, still within the nightlife scene, like would still take chems every now and then.
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.399
I mean, you know, I've gone through phases where it was every weekend, then I've gone through phases where I've not touched anything for six months a year.
00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:10.480
Um, but my stance when I started to talk a bit more about it was, you know, for me, like Ketamin, I loved my Ketamin, and I could do big lines of it, and it would barely fucking touch the sides.
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:17.919
Where and there would be people that would rush at me like, and I'm like, I'm fine, honestly, I'm fine, because they couldn't handle like a little fingernail.
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:23.120
So then in that moment, I was like, this doesn't make me better or worse than you.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:29.840
I'm not better because I'm than you because I'm not doing G, because what I'm doing of care terrifies you.
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:34.240
So my stance was always like, I'm in no position to tell anyone how to live their life.
00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:35.759
I'm not better or worse.
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:40.320
All I can do is share information and you can make whatever decisions you want on that.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:50.320
I don't want to be responsible for somebody else's life or trying to claim that I've got, you know, whatever, that I've made better moral decisions or whatever it is.
00:14:50.480 --> 00:15:02.480
No, like nine times out of ten, if I'm in this environment with you, I've still made the same choices as you to get there, whether I'm sober or not, or taking G or KEF or whatever it is, I'm not better or worse.
00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:04.559
I might have more information and I'll share that with you.
00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:06.000
I'm not gatekeeping information.
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:07.279
What's the point in that?
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:08.480
That's right.
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:09.360
That's right.
00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:09.759
Yeah.
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:17.360
And you know, and I think it's psychologically, when you tell somebody don't do this, they're they're going to want to do it.
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:18.399
Yeah.
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:20.720
We are petulant if nothing else.
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:21.360
Right.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:22.080
You know.
00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:22.960
Yeah.
00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:32.960
I I think that's you know, that's part of the shortcomings of some of the recovery programs that just straight out say, don't do any of these things.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:40.320
You know, but uh if you go and you try and you find out that you can't, like alcohol.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:52.879
You know, if alcohol leads you back to chems, then okay, you've you've experienced that, you've learned that on your own, and now you make the decision, I'm not using, I'm not drinking anymore.
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:59.440
But if you try and it didn't, you know, and like for me, alcohol never led to chems for me.
00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:03.919
They were just never in the same room, they never led one to the other at all.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:09.519
Now, alcohol, yes, will lead to really bad sexual decisions for me.
00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:16.559
You know, that that happens, you know, but never chems for whatever reason.
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:25.039
But you know, it's just so to me it's it's such a to uh a more balanced approach to say, like you said, I'm gonna meet you where you are.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.320
Like you're gonna some people are gonna take drugs anyway.
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:33.279
So let's make sure they have all the information and they're doing it in a way that they're safe.
00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:34.159
Yeah.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:35.759
Yeah.
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:36.799
Yeah.
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:43.679
I actually, when you were saying there about um, you know, the other courses being like you cannot, you must, blah, blah.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:52.000
I find this really interesting with obviously the care that you offer when you say like you don't start the count back from zero if somebody relapses.
00:16:52.159 --> 00:17:01.600
So then I was really interested at what point do you recognize it from being like a slip to like a full relapse, you know?
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.000
So let you know, does that does that make sense as a question?
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:11.680
So say if someone's already got 30 days, but then they go on like a two-week vendor, and you're counting that to like, yeah, do you know what I mean?
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:11.920
Yeah.
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.279
So I was interested in that.
00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:14.079
Yeah.
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.240
Well, you know, for me, it's whatever they want.
00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:24.559
The if you are in recovery, you're the executive of your own recovery.
00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:33.119
And let's let's look at the circumstances of what that two two-week slip or two-week relapse what circumstances was it under?
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:58.799
Because if you stopped doing everything that you know to do, if you don't put the safeguards in, if you can't put yourself back on grinder, you've been having these convers like if it was premeditated for several weeks, then that's different than somebody who ran into their dealer at the supermarket and suddenly the euphoric recall took over and they went and used.
00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:03.920
There's so many it it's so uh contextual and individualized.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:14.319
However, even if it's two weeks or even if it's two days, if for if you're in the program and you so you start my program, it's day one through 180, like if it's six months, right?
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:20.720
You can still say in six months I've used twice, let's say.
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.519
Maybe one of them was two weeks, one of them was two days.
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.440
I've used twice in 180 days.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:30.480
Let me compare that to the previous 180 days, where I used 50 times.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:41.680
So if I can step back and shift the perspective on my improvement, then that gives me incentive to keep going instead of I'm fucking back.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:44.799
Yeah, yeah, I ruined it all.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:46.319
I lost my time.
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.640
You know, what did you you don't lose time?
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:50.160
Time doesn't disappear.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.160
You know, you don't suddenly get amnesia when you use meth.
00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:57.759
You know, it's like you you got you got you gained.
00:18:57.839 --> 00:18:58.559
You didn't lose anything.
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:00.720
You gained knowledge, you gained experience.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:06.960
Sometimes you have to have a two-week bender to learn what not to do, to not have a two-week bender.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:19.279
It's just a matter of shifting all of that so that we're not constantly browbeaten and shamed, just like with the the harm reduction, is meeting you where you are, is let's let's just step back and look at the improvement.
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:24.559
Let's anchor into those wins, and that's gonna give me the fuel to keep improving.
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:26.240
Yeah, I love that.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:26.640
Yeah.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.799
No, that makes I mean, I like you and I have obviously spoken about this before.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:35.599
I've I've now made the choice to become sober uh last year.
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.799
It was never intentional to be forever.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:42.480
I just really wanted to give it a go again.
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:47.119
I'd say like the last there was a point around seven, eight months.
00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.680
I'm now nine, nine and a half months I've been sober.
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:55.119
And there was a point around seven, eight months where I'd already completely surpassed what I expected to do.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.759
I'd already felt that I had achieved everything that I kind of wanted to do.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:01.920
And it really was at that point, like the only thing keeping me sober is me.
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:09.359
And but not just like me in the sense of keeping me there, but just there was like I never really considered myself an addict.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:14.160
I didn't, I don't really consider myself someone to have let my usage get out of control.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.160
I didn't hit a rock bottom or anything like that in my mind.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.640
So it really was a let's just give this a go.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:34.400
And then I remember having conversations with friends and saying, like, you know, even if I choose to have, you know, say there's a festival coming up, and for that festival I want to take something just for the day, that's it, let me have it, and then still resume it.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:47.599
I was, I don't think it should be seen as having failed or having like lost, you know, the success or and you're completely right, like that's still just one one day, put that pocket there.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:56.079
It I wouldn't I mean I I chose not to in the end, because I really want to I want to try and get to a year and see what I can just to see that I've done it.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:01.359
But yeah, I was I had this conversation with friends and it was very polarizing.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.000
Like no one could quite 100% agree on either.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:08.640
Everyone could and I understood, like again, that's why I went back and forth in my mind about it.
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:20.559
But you're completely right, like people you you shouldn't completely beat yourself up or give up or think that you failed for a slip or a relapse or anything like that.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:26.240
It just uh putting yourself back in a seat time and time again, that is where the strength comes from.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:26.960
That's right.
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:28.079
That's right.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:47.759
It it's very it's very much traditional Christian of let me go to confession or you know, like I had to used I have to di I had to used to do, sorry, when I was growing up is come up to the front of the church and rededicate myself to Jesus because I had uh failed.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:48.480
Right.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.480
I watched Gay Porn Again.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:51.759
Whoopsie.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.680
You know, and it's it's just modeled to me, it's very much that same model.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.160
Of you sinned, you used.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:06.240
So we get you need to rededicate.
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:17.599
Confess it, rededicate, walk up in front of everybody and get a new chip and show just how you know just how modest and humble that you are.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:19.680
And now and now you get to start over.
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:27.359
It's just the model does not work for gay men and it does not work for chemsex, in my point of view, in my opinion.
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.079
Where many, many people cannot, right?
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:45.039
And you said that your your use seemed to never get too problematic.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:50.480
It sounds like that you were still functioning while using Kim's, at least get uh keeping a job and stuff.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:23:00.559
So if you went to a festival and used once, to me, based on that information, it's not going to it's not going to become problematic.
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.640
You'll you'll be able to confine it.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.119
Yeah, it wouldn't derail my life in theory, fingers crossed.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:15.359
Someone like me though, you know, that first that first day when I took that pipe, I I was in it after that.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.039
You know, I had ran my in two years, I had lost it all.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:26.880
And I can't, I know if I put probably if I smoked today, you you won't see me for another six months.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.880
That's just the way I use so harm reduction also isn't for everyone either.
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:40.559
So you really have the we can't print uh paint a bla a broad stroke here either.
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:51.920
No, I've been at um there's actually been impulse events in the past where they partnered with another organization who were fantastic, um, and they gave a panel discussion at the end.
00:23:52.480 --> 00:24:01.680
Um, but what I realized in the panel discussion is they only focused on um moderation management, which is absolutely a way to do it.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.519
And I thought that was, you know, a really good angle to come from.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:10.880
The only qualm I had with it was if you're gonna speak about one, you have to speak about the other.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.519
Because as you said there, you can't broadstroke it.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:14.400
It can't be.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.279
I know there are some people where if you do use again, that's it, you're gone.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:21.759
Like it just grabs you, whatever it is.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:29.519
Like you basically spend every day fighting against whatever it is to pull you back, and then if you give in, it will, you can so easily get lost to it.
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:33.359
And then there are other people where actually, no, you just get super carried away.
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.519
You need to like pull back, reassess, and reduce, basically.
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:47.440
But yeah, I just think that and you know, you mentioned earlier, like there's so much context that goes into each stage of recovery, each person, each decision with it.
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.720
There's no, and this is something I've learned more and more and more again.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:54.000
You know, there's often people that will come and ask me, like, where can I go?
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:54.559
What can I do?
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:54.960
How can it?
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.640
And it's just like the first thing you need to do is have a conversation.
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.920
I can't say to you, like, this is the exact roadmap that will save your life.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:04.559
That's right.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.400
You know, it's just not gonna happen.
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:06.799
Yeah.
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:07.279
Mm-hmm.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:07.839
Mm-hmm.
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:08.880
Exactly right.
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:16.799
That's the that's a little bit of a challenge with chem with chem sex recovery, is each person brings their own reasons why.
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:25.039
Some, you know, and some people, uh everybody always says it's sex, and 100% of the time it's not.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:35.599
I mean, it may have been why you got into it, and it may be what you do while you're on it, but a lot of times, most of the time, especially with those who those who can't stop, it's other things.
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:36.000
Right.
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:43.599
It's it's the need to escape your emotions, it's the need to escape your trauma, it's the need to feel validated, it's to feel included.
00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:50.720
You know, it's you're addicted to what, again, what you're not getting from the main culture, in my opinion.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:52.960
Which you're often elsewhere.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:26:06.079
Yeah, I mean, oftentimes when, you know, I'll speak about friends that I have in recovery to other sober friends or you know, often uh heteronormative counterparts, and um, they'll say, like, oh, what are they addicted to?
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:06.559
Yeah.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.160
And I've always found that so interesting.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:19.039
Someone, oh, I guess like, you know, early media depictions of addiction are like, they're a crack addict, or they love their cocaine, or it's always a particular thing.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:19.279
Yeah.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:29.200
Whereas when you look at chemsex, you're like, chemsex is the addiction, which can be an array and usually is a mixture of many of the substances and the sex.
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:35.680
And as you said there, it's the you know, it's the validation, it's the connection, it's the everything.
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:49.759
And I've always found that so, you know, when if someone says that I do want to get out of this cycle, I do want to like sober up and all of that, you are a bit like, well, I'm gonna be honest with you, it's gonna be really, really shit for a while.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:59.119
Because not only are you gonna have to do all this on a come down, but now you're gonna have to have this oftentimes the physical effects of coming off the drugs, and then basically cut off all the friends.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.799
I'm saying friends pro marks.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.440
Not all of them are quite the relationships that you need or want.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.799
It's a long lesson to learn, but you will learn it.
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:16.400
And then you also gotta maybe look at, oh, maybe you aren't getting as much sexual interest or even as like short hit validation, you're not getting as many responses on grind it, anything like that.
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:23.119
You really have to basically isolate yourself, which is probably a big reason as to why you started using in the first place.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:23.519
Yeah.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:26.960
And sit with that and just try and build something new.
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:41.039
And it's like, yeah, it's a long road ahead of you, but find support and find community in a real, real way, even if it's the people that are in the same boat as you trying to get sober as well, because they will get you and they will be your people.
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:42.240
Yeah.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:42.880
Yeah.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:44.240
Well, let me come back to that.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:52.799
Can you tell us uh some just um about your experience with chemsex and how you how and why you stopped?
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:53.519
Yeah.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:28:01.599
Um I mean, I as I said, I probably first started engaging in it when I was about 21, 22, say 22, around that age.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.319
Um had a great year of it, amazing.
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:05.440
First move to London.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:07.839
Me and all my friends, you know, took loads of drugs.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.359
But I will always say sex was never really a drive of it for me.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:18.000
Mine was uh community and I enjoyed taking drugs and I loved chatting shit with randomers.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:35.839
And you know, me and my friends used to do like full dance routines at the parties and stuff like that while someone's getting like fingered in the corner and we're just like um you know, and it was it was never, I mean, obviously I had sex, like I'm not a nun, clearly, but but it was never the drive for me.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:46.240
Um and then I left London after about a year because I'd pretty much snorted all my money away and wanted to be more uh yeah, wanted to not be broke.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:51.119
Um and then I came back, I kept my job in London, I moved just outside of it, so I wasn't too far.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.599
And I came back with just a very different approach to life.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:29:01.200
I then very quickly fell into a relationship, occasionally, you know, engaged in chems, not so much the hem sex as my relationship was monogamous.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:03.200
A lot of my friends were still hosting it.
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:13.519
I think for me, I've always been more drawn to what I call an afters over a chill out, and the way in which I differentiate them is chill-outs are very much the here's your drugs, here's your sex, get bumming.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:14.160
Right.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:22.160
Whereas an afters, you know, people might have clothes on or there might be women there, and you know, it was much more about the party.
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:27.119
Um I was always a bit more for that, and probably still would choose something more like that.
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:38.000
Um yeah, and I guess I last summer I used a lot more or went to a lot more afters and chill-outs than I'd done probably in about 10 years.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:43.759
And um, there was no to this day, I couldn't say there was a main catalyst or uh anything that really did it.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:47.200
I just um I guess I just started saying yes a bit more.
00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:49.440
And um it was fun.
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:50.640
I can't I can't deny.
00:29:50.799 --> 00:30:06.720
It was um, I think because in between that I'd done so much work with Impulse and I'd read so many books and so much research that it had kind of become, I guess, more of like a um theory, again, as opposed to a lived experience.
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:15.200
Um, you know, I would sit there and be like, you know, you're engaging in chemsex and you think you've got all these friends, but you're not, you're actually really lonely.
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:16.480
Like that's what it really is.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:32.799
But then what I realized was I was at these parties that were with my friends that I'd not really seen in this way for years because I'd been saying no and I'd been going home and having early nights, and I'd been choosing alternatives, which I was really happy with.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:40.400
And then suddenly I was like, I'm actually hanging out with my friends, and this is really good and really fun, and yeah, I'm having sex every now and then, and God, we're high as fuck at all.
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:50.000
There's all these really funny stories, and and I was having a lot of fun, and what interested me is, you know, as I mentioned before, like I still kept work.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:31:17.039
I actually work was going really well, my finances didn't take a horrible hit, I was being much more social than I had been in ages, and I was having more sex and I was feeling more sexy in myself and more confident like that, and it became actually quite a good time that I then was a bit like if I've still got all this in my life whilst using chems and substances, I wonder what I could have without them.
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:30.960
And that was kind of the first little catalyst, and then I remember I was at and afters, and don't get me wrong, I'd there'd been a couple of messier weekends, like you know, losing my keys and stuff like that, which was very out of character of me.
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:37.839
And thankfully they'd all come back, and I really believed in that like what you put out into the universe coming back, kind of thing.
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:46.880
And there was once where uh I'd left my late uncle's leather jacket that I'd inherited at a club, and I was like, oh god, I really hope it's still there.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:56.400
And then I decided to get sober in that week, went back to the club the week after, and it was there, and I was like, this is the universe saying, Okay, you're behaving yourself now, you can have this back.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:03.119
Um but I remember being at this afters, and there were a couple of my friends there, not as many as before.
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:10.960
And then I sort of clocked within about four or five hours, I was already wandering from room to room, not really talking to anyone.
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:13.680
And I remember being like, Okay, that's it.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:17.279
Your summer of fun is over, like you're not with your friends anymore.
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:20.319
The the party's done, like you've milked it for all you can.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.920
This is where the line is.
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:28.240
And I still really vividly remember, you know, I didn't have work till like 11 p.m.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:29.279
the next night or something.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.559
I had a long time ahead of me.
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:34.000
Like I think it was quite a I remember the weather was quite nice outside.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:35.440
I still had plenty of drugs.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:40.240
I actually picked up right before this happened, and the dealer did me a crazy deal.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.799
I spent like no money and got loads of drugs.
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:49.119
Um, and but I remember thinking, like, I'm not even really speaking to people here, I'm not really having a very great time.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.079
And I was like, I should just leave.
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.160
Like, the party is capped here for me.
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:55.359
This is this is done.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:56.880
Like, stop holding on to that.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:03.920
It will get better, it will get oh, I'm just waiting for the because there's always that feeling at these, like, just wait, just wait, something's gonna happen.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:09.759
You never there's no guarantee, and eight times out of ten it doesn't, but and I just thought, I was like, do you know what?
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:14.160
Just put your clothes on and see what happens.
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:19.599
And like every part of my body was like, no, just stay.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:28.799
But I was like, just put the clothes on and I was like, right, just pack your bag, right, just order the Uber, okay, just just get in the Uber, just see what happens.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:32.160
And still I was like, it doesn't feel right.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.480
It feels like I should still be here.
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:37.680
But obviously, it was the right decision.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:45.759
And I came home and uh then smoked a bunch of weed to like knock myself out, had a wonderful sleep.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:53.359
Uh yeah, and then woke up and uh had some drinks with a friend the next day before he moved to Berlin, and that was it.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.680
I was like, I'm just gonna not now.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:56.880
Yeah, that was it.
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:06.640
But I really instinctively remember being at this party just like it like all the all the markers for a quote mark successful party are there, you know.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:14.719
We've got plenty of drugs, plenty of boys, nothing else to do the next day, no one's with no there was no reason to leave the party or anything.
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.440
And I was just like, but there's nothing here for me.
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:18.639
I know there isn't.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:25.280
And I was just like, just go through the motions, just just use your brain right now, even though your brain is telling you no.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.599
You know logically this is the smart move to make.
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.639
Um yeah, it's just what I did.
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:34.480
Yeah.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:35.280
Wow.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:36.880
Wow, I love it.
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:50.719
Yeah, I I don't I just so for those listening, this is what I see a lot, is we keep you said you're trying to milk it for all you can.
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:51.840
Right.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.000
And a lot of us are trying to milk a dry udder.
00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:06.800
You know, in terms of I like you were talking about all the fun you were having, you were doing your dance moves, you were meeting interesting people, you were doing stuff.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:16.800
What we what we try to do is desperately recreate that and hang on to that and think that that's going to be the experience with Ken's forever.
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:17.679
Yeah.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:28.000
And we can't just accept, like there's that phrase, what um smile, don't cry because it happened, or don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened, or something like that.
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:28.400
Dr.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.679
Seuss, maybe or something.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.760
But you know, it happened.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:32.960
You had a great time.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:36.639
But what I see is that we keep trying to force it.
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:37.039
Right.
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:37.519
Right.
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:40.800
Like you had that that you know, I had that great sex.
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:44.800
That first time I did it, it was great sex for like two days.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:48.960
And I thought I had found the holy grail of my life.
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:49.760
Yeah.
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:52.159
I never had whatever that was.
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:52.719
Right.
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:54.480
With whatever his name was.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:56.079
Whatever his name was.
00:35:56.800 --> 00:35:58.880
But I I never had that again.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:11.039
You know, there was some there was some good sex here and there in the beginnings sometimes, but I kept trying desperately so hard to recreate that.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.599
And like you say, just keep milking it, milking it.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:31.599
And we find ourselves in that decision point where we know when you're at the when you're at you're at the we say chill out, uh, when you're at the chill out or you're at the PMP party and you're looking around and you know in your heart, in your soul, even if you're high, this is not what I want anymore.
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:32.320
Yeah.
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:34.000
I don't belong here.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:41.119
But what you did is you felt that and you followed it by taking just one action.
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:50.320
I'm gonna put my clothes on, and then I'm gonna pack my bag, and then I'm gonna call my like you took it one at a time, even though your body you're saying is screaming, stay.
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:50.719
Uh-huh.
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:51.119
Yeah.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:37:08.159
I think if more of us could follow that in the moment, that decision, take just take one action after the other, that that that's so powerful, and that's a statement to yourself and your subconscious, the action follows up the feeling.
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:09.199
I'm done.
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:34.239
I think it was actually when I first started partying all those like 10 years ago, something like 10, 11 years ago, I used to go with a friend quite regularly, and we had the one that I would do the dance routines with, and we had this rule that was because I think, at least from my experience, there was often, like you said, that little voice would pop in every now and then and be like, Why am I here?
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:35.519
Do I need to be here?
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:39.519
Or if you really feel like I should probably leave, just a little whisper.
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:40.000
Yeah.
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.960
And we always said to each other, like, whenever one of us got that, look around the room.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:51.119
And if you can look around and honestly say, I'm here for the people, then we would let each other stay for a bit longer.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:56.079
But if you looked around and thought, I'm here for the drugs, that was your time to leave.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:02.320
And then we would like make a promise to each other, like, don't talk the other out of it, go with the other.
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.880
And that was something, and I think, I mean, I'm not, I don't really speak to that friend anymore now.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:16.800
Um, but it's still something that I always was really kind of proud that we thought of that and that I we felt safe with each other and trusted in each other enough.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:21.519
And I would say seven to eight times out of ten, we did stick with it.
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:32.480
Um because I think because we also we also knew, I think, in our young, naive, arrogance and drug-fueled, we were like, well, the best thing about this party anyway.
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:36.320
So it was quite easy for us back then.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:50.639
Whereas I think now going back into it and you know having that mindset, I think it was more I am grateful enough to know that I find joy in a lot of other things in life.
00:38:50.960 --> 00:39:01.039
I don't I don't feel reliant upon these settings to meet people or feel confident or have fun, I guess.
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:06.559
I know like in like I know I I have a lot of joy in bed rotting.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:11.119
I know I have a lot of joy in having to go for a TV series or having a wank on my own.
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:14.480
Like I I don't need to I don't need to be in these environments.
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:23.440
Like I have friends, like a Sunday roast is a huge catalyst for me to not party on a Sunday, on a Saturday, because I want a good, full meal.
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:25.039
I want that on the Sunday.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:35.039
So whatever it is, like I I yeah, I do feel grateful enough to not feel trapped enough to be so reliant upon those parties.
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:45.360
And it's not that I would never go to one again, but I I yeah, I definitely have a different level of self-awareness, and I think that to me is is knowledge.
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:53.920
And it's what I say, like I'm never gonna tell people what to do or how to do it, but I will absolutely share all the hints, tips, tricks, knowledge, experience, whatever I've got.
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.920
And hopefully if it helps them, it helps them, great.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:57.920
If it doesn't, then I'll go fuck myself.
00:39:58.559 --> 00:39:59.360
Yeah, right.
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:01.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.400
Yeah, I think having a buddy is such a such a great idea.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:11.039
And um, I kind of had that at one time, although it was the opposite.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:15.360
I think we fed into each other uh and made ourselves do worse things.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:17.360
Um, you know, it was the opposite thing.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:27.920
But um I I think that's a really a really great plan in terms of if you're going to these parties, these chill outs, is to have someone with you.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.920
Um I operate like that, any kind of party environment anyway.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:35.119
Like I'm being social, I want a partner in crime.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:39.760
I can't be bothered with a group nine times out of ten because it's just too much.
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:43.519
Um and I don't feel as comfortable going on my own.
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:52.480
But if I just have a partner, just someone check in, whatever, even if it's on the dance floor at a club or whatever, I love to have a little partner in crime, especially at an afters.
00:40:52.559 --> 00:41:03.760
It just I've always kind of saw them as like an anchor, someone that, you know, even as you're getting more and more out of it, you remember that person and you remember and you you giggle with each other, even if you just see each other every now and then.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:13.199
But if you can have someone that you know, you set this with each other, like because I mean you'll have conversations at Chillouts as well where you're like, really shouldn't be here.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:19.840
Like you have those conversations, you have it like, oh, I can't be in here, like so put action to it.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:20.880
Be like, do you know what?
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:23.039
I'm really vibing with you, you're really fun.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:24.880
We're the best thing here anyway.
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:25.360
Why not?
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.320
Give yourself an ego in it, like yeah, right.
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:29.840
Like, yeah, why not?
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:36.320
Love yourself hard enough to be like, actually, yeah, I've got a lot to offer more than just getting off my gun accepting someone's dick.
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:37.039
That's right.
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:37.519
That's right.
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:40.239
Right, right.
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:44.159
Of course, of course, yeah.
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:51.760
Yeah, I think it's important to like you you're saying it's not that I will never go back, but you don't need them.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:52.639
Right?
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:59.280
I think it's such a a f powerful question to say what am I getting out of my chem sex experience?
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:00.559
What what am I getting?
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:02.559
Let me extract, let me think about this.
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:04.000
What is it giving me?
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:09.840
Because what it's giving me is almost always what I'm not giving myself.
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:11.679
If I keep going back.
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.119
If I keep going back, I'm getting something that I'm not giving myself.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:16.639
And so what is it?
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:20.639
If it is validation that you're getting, how can you give that to yourself?
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:24.880
Or how can you get that in another way that doesn't involve chems?
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:29.760
Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's interesting, like we talk about this now.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:44.079
I've actually alongside this, I've actually been in therapy as well since January, which is I've I've had therapy before, but whether it's just because it's a different therapist or just where I'm at in life, like every session is like, oh, it's been fantastic this year.
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:46.719
Um I've been so introspective.
00:42:46.880 --> 00:43:02.000
Um and you know, a theme that keeps coming out is my love, my one and my nurture, I guess, for community, not just for myself, but to protect the bigger community of gay and queer men in particular.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:05.440
Um, it's something I crave, it's something I'm often trying to build.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:11.119
And you know, I can look at that now, like, oh yeah, no wonder I've engaged in chemtex, no wonder I worked in nightlight.
00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:13.199
Like, it all makes total sense.
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:18.880
But yeah, I think like being aware of, yeah, like you said, what you kind of want.
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:24.239
I have like there, I did go to a couple of afters within the last few months.
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:28.480
One was definitely an afters, it was genuinely a group of friends, and I stayed sober for it.
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:33.920
And a big part of that was I was so curious to see if I could and what I would be like.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.519
And I didn't announce like, hi everyone, I'm gonna be sober.
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:37.920
Right.
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:44.400
Um, it didn't, you know, I I just kept it to myself, and it took a few hours until somebody realized like you've not done anything.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:45.679
And then it was like, yeah.
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:48.800
And by that point, I was like, but have you been able to notice?
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:49.920
And they were like, no, actually.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.079
And I was like, so everything's fine.
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:52.960
Yeah.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:53.519
Yeah.
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:59.519
And then the other one I went to was much more of a chill out, um, which again I was curious to see.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.880
How I would interact with it, if I would be okay with it.
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:06.400
And um I will say both were really pleasant.
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:07.519
Everyone was really lovely.
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:11.760
The chill out got a bit weird conversation-wise after a while.
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:21.679
I think people in their high state forgot what were like appropriate conversations to have, and I just felt a bit uncomfortable.
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:24.320
Yeah, so I left after that one.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:27.039
But we'll put that down to the people.
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:53.119
Yeah, but I yeah, I I think when you mentioned about validation, in a weird way, part of me is a bit like, I don't think it's really that awful to go to one looking for validation as long as you know that's what you're looking for and you understand it will be a short, sharp hit and that's it.
00:44:53.519 --> 00:45:18.960
I don't think there's anything really wrong with that, but I think going hoping it will be long-lasting or fix whatever it is, or I think you need to already be really sure in yourself to be like, I want some sexual validation, I want to be the cock of the walk, I want eyes on me, I want that, just because I really fancy it right now, as opposed to I need to feel that I'm worth something and this is how I'm gonna get it, because that's not how it works.
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:20.239
That's right.
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:21.199
Exactly right.
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:22.320
And thank you for saying that.
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:26.880
Because listen, validation, just like anything else, is not bad.
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:30.719
But it's the reason, it's the intention behind it.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:47.440
Like like you're saying, if you you come to this because you're feeling uh bad about yourself and the only way to feel better is to be the sexual object at a chemsex party, then you're you're filling you're filling a void that could be filled somewhere else.
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:53.440
If you're coming if you're coming to the till out and you're you're already you're fine with yourself.
00:45:53.599 --> 00:46:06.480
There's no void to fill, and you want some validation because it feels good and it's you know, it it who doesn't want to be, you know, the the biggest dick at the party or the whatever, you know, the the the the bottom passed around or whatever it is, right?
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:08.079
You know, who doesn't want to be that?
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:13.280
You know, but if it just it's all in the intention behind why you're doing it.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:20.400
It makes the difference between somebody who can just stop and somebody who's addicted to the valid the validation experience too, I think.
00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:21.039
Yeah.
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:32.159
It is as you know, I I think it's the same with a lot of the apps, like you know, we talk uh there's big conversations around how it's just that quick dopamine hit, but you're gonna crash again so hard from it.
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:43.679
Like yeah, the same as if you are if all of your sex is under substances and at a chill out, maybe reassess.
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.519
Look at you know, authentic connection, look at look at prostitutes.
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:48.079
No, no.
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:49.119
Yeah.
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.320
No, like look at how your yeah, your relationship with sex.
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:58.159
I think as gay men, so many of us need to have a look at our relationship with sex.
00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:00.639
I'm still trying to unmodel mine, I guess.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:01.440
Yeah.
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:02.400
Yeah.
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:02.880
Yeah.
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:15.679
I mean, that is the sad part about and maybe not as much methadrone, but methamphetamine, is that you your brain fuses the meth and sex together, and suddenly you can't have one without the other.
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:16.400
Yeah.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:18.559
That's the the healing part.
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:19.840
You mentioned escorts.
00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:32.480
I want to do a podcast on this, but I think escorts are great uh resources for unfusing because they'll do what you tell them to you do, they'll do what you tell them to do.
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:40.320
And you can explore a kink, you can have a s a space where, you know, of course, you know, you just have to make sure that they don't bring Kems with them.
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:40.800
Yeah.
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:42.159
You know, because because they want.
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:50.960
Some of them want you to take them so that you rack up the time, but but for the most part, an escort will do exactly what you tell them to do.
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:53.760
And a lot of times you there's nothing to lose there.
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:57.440
You're not going to feel as embarrassed as if you are dating somebody.
00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:02.639
I think that I do think that there's a I do think there's a a good um need.
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:04.480
There's a there's a resource there.
00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:19.039
And I would love to have an actual like service, like a chemsex healing service where people are paid to come and help you give you that environment where you can start to unfuse the myth and the sex as well.
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:21.440
Yeah, I think that's an excellent idea.
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:23.199
Like I think it's completely valid.
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:35.119
Um yeah, and I mean, oftentimes, like I mean, obviously some sex workers will just be quick cash grab, probably using chems as well, maybe not the ones you want to be looking at for this.
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:48.000
But there's a hundred percent people that work within sex work, especially sex workers, that really do want to cater to their customer and really do sometimes actually enjoy that experience that you know it's something different for them.
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:52.480
Like sometimes they get off on the simple fact that they are of service to someone else.
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:54.239
And I think, yeah, you're completely right there.
00:48:54.320 --> 00:49:06.239
Like when your sex has become so infused with something else that is poisoning you for use of a better term, to look at ways to untangle that, yeah, I think it's a great way of doing it.
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:07.440
Yeah.
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:24.000
So a couple things before, and I don't want to take up a a lot of your time, but just for the listeners, I I call it calculated risk, where you get to the point in your recovery where you can go to the PMP party or the chill out, whatever you call it, wherever you are in the world.
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:27.519
Well you can go and it's almost it's a little bit of an assessment.
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:28.800
Can I do this?
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:29.280
Yeah.
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:31.760
What's it gonna what's it gonna be like sober?
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:32.559
Right.
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:42.320
Um, or you went to the after and you just you you're gonna stay sober and you wanted to kind of see what it's gonna be like for me when I'm sober and everybody else isn't.
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:49.679
And and so you do have to be at a certain point in your recovery before you do this, but talk about building self-trust.
00:49:50.639 --> 00:50:05.840
If you can go and stay within your boundaries, you know, you be really begin to trust yourself more than ever because it's again, it's another experiential learning that you're you're undertaking for yourself.
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:10.800
Um, so good for you for for being able to do that.
00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:15.599
I mean, I will say I was definitely tired much quicker than everyone else.
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:22.960
Um, and I definitely was not as sexually active as I would have been if I were under the influence.
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:27.360
So I knew that for that, even though there were some guys I was like, oh, I would really like to.
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:35.760
But I don't I I don't know, I don't I think it's really easy to see that as a negative, but I choose not to.
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:43.280
And I don't think it's a downside to have not slept with as many people, even though the opportunity was there.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:50.159
You know, I think there's yeah, even just knowing that they want it sometimes is enough of that validation here.
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:50.719
Mm-hmm.
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:51.440
Yeah.
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:52.639
Yep.
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:55.360
I've always admired people like that, even when they're sober.
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.079
I'm like, God, why didn't we take them home and didn't move in the lake?
00:50:58.400 --> 00:50:59.280
So I didn't want that.
00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:02.239
I just wanted, you know, to be seen, to be flirting with.
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:04.320
And I'm like, oh damn new, once I start.
00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:05.599
Yeah.
00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:06.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:07.519
Yeah, I was not sure.
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:13.920
I was notorious for that when Grindr is I just want to make sure I just want you, I just want to know you're willing to do it.
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:16.079
And then I'll then I'm gonna turn the app off.
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:17.519
God, you're right.
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:20.320
That is exactly the main example, isn't it?
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:22.159
No time wasted as oh fuck off.
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:23.360
We all just want to get attention.
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:26.960
I'm not wasting your time, I'm getting mine.
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:27.920
Right.
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:29.519
Right.
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:31.280
Right, right, right.
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:35.199
Um, okay, so one one quick question I have.
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:39.599
You mentioned something that I think we I want to focus on before we leave.
00:51:39.679 --> 00:51:46.400
Um, and that is you said you have to isolate yourself and sit with that and then find community.
00:51:47.360 --> 00:52:01.519
I find that's the hardest thing to have to try to articulate and help men do is to be able to sit down with themselves and be happy with that and isolate themselves in the beginning.
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:03.599
What are your what is your advice on that?
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:19.760
I mean, this was probably you know, through my sobriety, and you know, I've I've I've spoken before, like sometimes I feel unqualified to to speak about sobriety because I don't consider myself someone that um has struggled with addiction.
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:22.239
I mean, I have definitely gotten carried away with substances.
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:25.119
Weed was definitely one that I really did struggle with.
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:27.760
Um it was more habitual.
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:39.920
Um, but what I really wanted to try and achieve as well in the sobriety was learning to sit in that discomfort um and sort of see what came out of it.
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:50.400
And what I've learned is, you know, where my ADHD shows up a lot more, which I wasn't even aware of, like how easily I get overstimulated and things that I would use to soothe me.
00:52:50.639 --> 00:53:04.719
Um, all these things that I was like, God, and I guess I I never really felt that I used any substance to mute my emotions, but using substances as a side effect does mute your emotions.
00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:10.239
And it's not necessarily in that moment, you'll start seeing it a few weeks, a few months down the line.
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:13.599
You're like, fucking hell, like I didn't expect that.
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:17.760
Like, and you're like, whoa, this actually, yeah, it's I can't explain it.
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:28.000
But it really is unfortunately with all sobriety and all these journeys with recovery, it you have to learn to play the long game, and that's what it is.
00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:39.679
Like, you know, as we mentioned earlier, telling someone to stop engaging well, someone making the decisions to stop engaging in chemsex, the reality that you need to tell them is it's gonna be really shit for now.
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:45.599
It's gonna get worse before it will get better, and I think it's having that trust in the process.
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:51.599
Um, definitely, I mean, you know, we said that about isolate yourself and then build a community around you.
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.559
They can work in tandem, like they can work in tandem.
00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:59.760
You don't need to be completely alone and be like, okay, I've cut everyone off now.
00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:01.519
Now I'm gonna no, no, no.
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:05.760
You know, you can start going to meetings, you can reach out to sober friends.
00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:09.679
I mean, I will say up front something that's been really, really beautiful.
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:22.079
I mean, in this last year or nine months of my sobriety, I've also been maid of honor for my uh one of my best friends' weddings, who we've known each other since we were nine, but we've not been as close, I'd say, over the last 10 years, just where our lives have been.
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:23.199
We're still interwoven.
00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:40.559
But what's been really beautiful is I've really looked back at honestly the women that I've grown up with and how they have I might not have been as close to them over the last 10 years, but they've been consistent and steady and fantastic.
00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:45.119
And you know, they're getting married now and having babies, and that's so not where my life is.
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:47.360
But I've never once been judged by them.
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:56.719
They've still always loved me, they've always seen me, and they may not be the friendships that, you know, for the last 10 years I might not have been like my best friend, and I wouldn't have thought about them.
00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:03.920
But I look at it now like you are incredible women, and you've done nothing but show me love.
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:07.039
And I, you know, I would I I encourage that now.
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:15.039
I'm like, the girls in your life, the ones that were there before, have a look at them because odds are they might still hold a little candle for you.
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:31.280
I mean, I've been so fortunate with it, but I think when you get so caught up in a chemsex life where it's gay men, gay men, gay men everywhere, it can become very easy to forget the great women that have been there as well and still love you from far.
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:32.639
Yeah.
00:55:33.280 --> 00:55:33.679
Yeah.
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:39.039
I I I think I think, yeah, I think we often convince ourselves we've burned so many bridges.
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:42.320
Some of them might still be on fire and they just need that fire pulling out.
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:44.559
Like it's not always the end.
00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:46.239
Um yeah.
00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:51.360
But yeah, it really is about learn to play the long game.
00:55:51.519 --> 00:56:04.000
It's gonna be hard, and but what but what you get out of it when you push through, not just you know, the life you have for recovery, but the understanding you have of yourself, how you operate, what sets you off, what makes you shine.
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.679
You learn all of this a hell of a lot more in such a different way.
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:13.519
Yeah, and I think those things in turn then lead you to love yourself a bit more.
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.880
Yeah, yeah, I feel really fortunate right now.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:25.519
At this moment in time, I feel very self-assured, which I've not felt for quite a while, and it gives you this like calm confidence.
00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:28.239
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:30.559
You yeah, you said push through.
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:34.480
You know, it reminds me of your story of leaving that chill out.
00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:40.000
You push through, you push through the uncomfortableness, you push through your body screaming, stay.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:40.880
Yeah.
00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:43.280
There's always suck.
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:53.679
Yeah, it's there's always a reward on the other side of pushing through the resistance.
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:56.719
And if there isn't, you're not out the other side yet.
00:56:57.199 --> 00:56:58.239
Yeah, right.
00:56:58.639 --> 00:57:01.519
You haven't felt that reward, like you need to keep pushing.
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:09.920
And I know it's so easy to sit here and say, I know, I know, but you yeah, you have to trust yourself and trust the process.
00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:11.039
Yes.
00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:12.800
Great, great advice.
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:18.000
Yeah, I I could talk to you probably for another hour, Dom, but I know you have to go to work.
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:22.320
She's a busy girl.
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:23.280
Yes.
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:24.800
Uh yeah.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:27.519
And speaking of busy, I'm just gonna share.
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:31.519
Um, if you're watching, just gonna share Dom's Instagram page real quick.
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:32.960
Really fun page.
00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:34.960
Really fun page.
00:57:35.199 --> 00:57:36.800
You're out there living your life.
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:43.519
You're out here on the lake, you're out here in a I saw you were you're in New York City in my neck of the woods here.
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:47.440
Um all of the all of your mashups are fun.
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:54.000
You'll have to come back and tell us, give us is this were your maid of honor here?
00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:55.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:02.880
We lived with her family between the age of 18 and 19.
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:06.480
So that's the house, the garden house that she grew up in.
00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:08.960
So yeah, really special, really intimate.
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:11.760
Look at this box, look at this body.
00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:14.239
There you go.
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:16.800
If nothing else, come for the boobs.
00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:18.320
That's right.
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:43.679
Uh yeah, you'll have to we'll have to uh do a little maybe another discussion on help for for those of us who want to keep going to the nightlife, the raves, the you know, the the the the nightlife culture, we want to stay there and not do Kims or stay sober, you know, there's a there's I'm sure you have a lot of advice on that, but because uh, you know, some people think that they can't do it anymore.
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:50.159
Yeah, I mean, I will say just super quickly on that, it it was a while until I went socially back into the clubs.
00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:58.159
And when I did, what was really important to me was having a friend that understood the situation I was in.
00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:01.920
So it wasn't gonna be a moment of like, I'll get you a drink or it's like, no, they got it.
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:12.480
But also the friend that I went with, I've known for years, and actually I've seen them high, I've seen them super drunk, I've seen them sober, and I can never tell the difference.
00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:15.679
They're the same version of themselves and everything.
00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:26.239
So I felt really safe that I wasn't gonna feel overwhelmed by them or feel like I had to play catch up or feel like I was being awkward or anything like that.
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:28.559
I knew they were still gonna be the same.
00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:36.079
So I was, yeah, the person I knew they were consistent, and I knew that they understood where I was, so it was comfortable.
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:43.920
So yeah, if you are wanting to hit the clubs again, I would say try and look for someone like that that can just be your little your anchor for the night.
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:45.760
Yeah, I love that.
00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:48.559
That's a great idea, great suggestion.
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:51.760
Well, Dom, thank you for your time today.
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:52.559
Really appreciate it.
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:53.039
Thank you.
00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:54.559
It's been lovely, yeah.
00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:57.360
And also check out Impulse.
00:59:57.519 --> 00:59:58.880
Uh, we're gonna put the link.
00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:02.800
We didn't talk too much about Impulse today, but I'll put the link to Impulse in the show notes.
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:08.400
We'll put the link to Dom Topics um Instagram in the show notes as well.
01:00:08.559 --> 01:00:13.199
And don't forget that there is always a supplemental study guide that goes along with each episode.
01:00:13.360 --> 01:00:17.360
It'll have journal prompts and actionable exercises, it'll have a summary of the episode.
01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:19.039
Um, so please check that out.
01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:21.440
Uh, the link to that will be in the show notes as well.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:22.719
Thank you, Dom.
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:23.920
Appreciate you being here.
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:26.639
Thank you, and thank you for all you do as well.
01:00:26.719 --> 01:00:28.719
I'm such such a fan.
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:30.800
So thank you.
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:33.679
Thank you for mentioning me on your story the other day.
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:34.880
Oh, of course, yes.
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:36.800
Whenever people ask, it's always a great one.
01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:37.840
Yeah, perfect.
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:38.719
Great, thank you.
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:39.519
All right, thank you.
01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:41.920
All right, guys, we'll see you next week.