Brazil’s Data Center Boom is Enabled by Renewables Firms w/ Laís Martins

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We were able to track that 60% of the requests to install data centers in Brazil come from renewable energy companies.
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This means that renewable energy companies are transforming themselves.
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They're like changing their core businesses to also become tech companies.
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To me, this was like very mind blowing at first because this means you're at the same time the energy provider and the consumer.
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As you probably know by now, my new book, Hyperscale, comes out in less than two weeks.
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This is a book about the build-out of data centers and the backlash to it that we have really seen accelerate in the past six to twelve months.
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If you've been liking the episodes that we have been doing on the show lately, I think you're really going to like the book that I've written.
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You know, this took me a couple of years to put together.
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I did a bunch of research.
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I visited a bunch of spots around the world to learn more about the impacts these data centers are having.
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And ultimately, not I don't just dig into the demands of these data centers, how they're affecting people, but what this means for our future, what the tech industry is actually trying to do by pushing all these data centers on us and whether we can do something different.
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So I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but pre-orders are really important for new books.
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It's not just like helping to sell books ahead of time, but it actually sends the signal to booksellers that this is a book that readers are interested in, that people are buying, and that more people will probably want to buy.
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And when booksellers see that signal, they bring in more books, they display it more prominently, they help to basically sell even more books because people have already bought it.
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So I often ask you to help me out and to help the show by going to patreon.com and becoming a supporter.
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But the best thing that you can do for me right now is to go pre-order a copy of Hyperscale.
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You can do that through bookshop.com, which supports local bookstores, whether that is in the US or the UK, and I'll put links to the show notes for you to do that.
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Or you can just go to hyperscalebook.com, the website I made for the book, where you can find a bunch of different pre-order links for different booksellers.
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The point is the pre-order of the book and to send that very important signal.
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Every single week I have tens of thousands of people who tune in to Tech Won't Save Us to listen to these interviews that I do with experts, but also hopefully to hear some of my own commentary and thoughts on these issues.
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If every one of you or even half of you went and pre-ordered a copy, that would help to make this book an incredible success.
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You would do so much to help me by helping my book succeed.
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So please, if you enjoy my work, if you enjoy this podcast, I ask you to go pre-order Hyperscale, whether that's at Bookshop or anywhere else.
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Again, find links in the show notes where you can do that.
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Or if you're on the video version, there will be a QR code on your screen.
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But we're less than two weeks away from release, and you would really help me if you go pre-order a copy of Hyperscale.
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Thank you so much.
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And now to this week's episode where we continue to talk about data centers.
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My guest is Laice Martins, a technology reporter at the Intercept who has been on the show in the past to talk about what is going on in Brazil, where there are a lot of data centers being built out right now, but where I felt it was really interesting that a lot of these data centers are actually being pushed by renewable energy companies, which is very different than what we have seen in other parts of the world.
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These renewable energy companies are helping the data centers get over the line and get some degree of public acceptance, and then will be leased or sold off to some other company once they're actually built.
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I think it's a really important story because it's a different story than the one that we see in so many other jurisdictions, right?
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Especially when we're talking so much about fossil fuels, like we were last week with Katanjashi.
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But that doesn't mean these data centers are suddenly okay because there's more renewable energy involved.
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It's a complicated picture.
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And I talk about that with Lais in this interview.
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But beyond that, as you are probably aware, the Brazilian elections are this month too.
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And so near the end of our conversation, we also check in on what has been going on in Brazil, what might happen in these elections, you know, who might actually win and what that will mean, not just for technology policy in Brazil, but also for Brazilian society as a whole, as the risk of a Bolsonaro coming back to power is, you know, once again a prospect and something that we need to be paying attention to.
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So with that said, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Lais and the series of conversations that we're having about data centers this month as we celebrate the release of my new book, Hyperscale.
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And as I said before, if you want to help me out this month, please go pre-order a copy of Hyperscale.
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Your pre-orders will help make it a success.
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So thank you so much and enjoy this week's conversation.
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Lais, welcome back to Technology Save Us.
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Thank you.
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I'm super happy to be back, Barry.
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Thank you.
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Absolutely.
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I'm thrilled to have you on the show, as always.
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And, you know, it's a really important time, not just because, you know, the data center push continues in Brazil and, you know, across Latin America, but also, you know, Brazil is in election mode at the moment.
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We're going to figure out who the new president is, you know, along with, of course, the other representatives who get elected.
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And so I think it's a really good time for us to catch up, to talk about what is happening on the data center front, but also, you know, more widely in Brazilian politics.
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And of course, we'll get into that a little bit later in our conversation.
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But I want to start with a more general question.
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If we're thinking about data centers, of course, you know, we've talked about this before, but what is the state of play in Brazil right now?
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How are things looking when we think about the expansion of data centers down in your part of the world?
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Right.
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So I think when we first spoke, Paris, maybe like more than a year ago, Brazil was starting to plan out this uh national data center policy or plan, as it was called at the moment.
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Um, and it this was just starting.
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They were still maturing the idea of what Brazil wanted to attract in terms of like what types of data centers and what the incentives would be.
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And now, I think it's been like one and a half year, this data center policy has been approved and enacted into law by President Lula.
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So it wasn't an easy path, I would say, both for civil society organizations who were pushing back, but also for the data center developer or like the industry in more general terms, because there was more pushback than they anticipated, I guess.
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And there also wasn't a lot of political support for this bill inside Congress, right?
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So when it started out, it was meant to be a provisional measure, which would require um congressional approval.
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It passed the Chamber of Deputies, which is the lower house of Congress, but then it got stuck at the Senate level.
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And for months it was stuck to the point where people started doubting that this would ever become a law.
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Um, and then uh there was probably some political negotiation between the government and the president of um the Senate.
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They are not in the same party, and this was put into vote and approved.
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But um, Lula still needed to approve it or sanction it, right?
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And there was this big question of whether he would do it.
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Because it's very important to say that in this year, when the bill was moving forward in Congress, I think Brazilian society and also maybe people in Congress realized more and more that data centers are a very, they're a double-edged sword, right?
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They can either be very good in electoral terms, or it can be a blow to your election zone and to your voters, especially with what's happening in the US.
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So I think there was this idea that maybe Lula was gonna hold back, not sanction it, or maybe push this until after the elections.
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But two weeks ago, or yeah, a little over two weeks ago, when all eyes were actually focused in a very important Supreme Court session, he sanctioned it into law.
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And I think it's not a coincidence that he chose that day, right?
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The government chose this day where everyone would be paying attention to something else to secretly kind of sign this into a bill.
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So, what does this data center policy include?
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It establishes incentives for foreign companies to come into Brazil and install data centers.
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I think it's very important to say that it's an incentive policy.
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So it reduces uh import taxes on equipment.
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So that's we know that's the most expensive part of building a data center.
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And at the same time, the government is asking in exchange some that companies invest 2% of their yearly incomes into research and development.
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They also have to allocate, I think, 10% of the one data center's capacity to the national market.
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So there are some things that the government is asking in exchange.
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But, you know, experts, people who have been following this policy, that it's still not enough.
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If we're thinking of sovereignty, of restoring this balance, it's still not enough to get us there.
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One very important point of the policy, and I think this is um, I don't want to say it's a win, but it's an improvement that the policy saw over this time is that companies have to generate their own energy.
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And this is a response to concerns that have been brought up to the government based on what is happening in the US.
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More specifically, that people will see their utility bills rise because of data centers.
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So now there's this, you know, obligation that companies have to generate their own energy.
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But this is not exactly good news, especially because of the renewable um energy story.
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So I think we can discuss this a bit later, but that's where we're at.
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One last note I want to make is that this was expected, but of course, big tech and data center developers aren't satisfied.
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Like this is not the end of the line for them, right?
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They just got this government incentive on the federal level, but they're already saying we need more.
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We need incentives on the state level.
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Like it's still not worth it to go into Brazil unless the states also clear the taxes.
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So, you know, in Portuguese, we have the saying that you give someone a hand and they go for your own uh entire arm.
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I think this is exactly what is happening right now.
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Yeah, it definitely sounds like it.
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And yeah, I'm not surprised, unfortunately, to hear that you know development.
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And of course, the the data center lobby, they always want more, right?
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You know, nothing is ever good enough, we see with the tech industry.
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And you know, your point on the import taxes is important, right?
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Because, you know, this is something that they demand in a lot of jurisdictions, certainly the the removal of taxes on the equipment.
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And if I remember correctly, Brazil often has you know quite high import taxes on some of these types of things.
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This is something that they're definitely looking for and demanding.
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Um, before we move on to the specific model of data centers in Brazil, you know, you mentioned the renewable energy, and I want to dig into that.
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I wanted to ask you about the pushback and the backlash, right?
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Because I feel like you know, we have seen a lot of opposition to data centers in the United States that has really grown.
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And I feel like we're starting to see that pick up in other markets as well.
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You know, we're seeing Australia, Canada, where I am, different parts of Europe where the opposition is growing quite quickly.
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In Brazil, do we see the opposition kind of growing on a national level, or is this still pretty localized to where data centers are actually being built?
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That's a good question.
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So I would say we have you know pockets of resistance, like um where data centers are coming up, communities are starting to mobilize, but it's already an evolution of what was happening before.
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Because, you know, the first big example of resistance or pushback we have in Brazil is um in the Northeast, the indigenous community against the TikTok data center.
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And that only happened because journalism covered the story, right?
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I did the story.
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Um, so we were able to tell the community look, a data center is coming, this is what it means.
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What we're seeing now is in places where there still hasn't been any media coverage, the community is already creating this shared understanding that, you know, this is something we should pay attention to, this is something we should mobilize.
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So, for example, um, there's a city here in the countryside of Sao Paulo State called Pingdamoyangaba.
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The community there learned about it, the data center, through um a city hall announcement.
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Like there was a press release on the website, and they started mobilizing.
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They reached out to people who were doing this type of resistance in other places, and you know, this has started to grow.
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In fact, they have a big event um coming up this weekend, like to share what they have learned about it.
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So that's a case where journalism didn't really need to play a part in the sense that they weren't the ones to break the story.
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So this has happened in some other places.
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People reached out to me, like, oh, I'm seeing a data center in my city, what should I do?
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So I think it's become more spontaneous.
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What has happened on the national level, I think, is what I call like social media activism.
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You know, like people have realized data centers aren't the big promise that they were supposed to be.
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And again, this is really based on what is happening in the US.
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The news does reach Brazil.
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Like we, you know, have translated stories about people who have seen their utility bills rise or people whose water supply has changed colors because of data centers, the noise pollution, etc.
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This is reaching Brazil.
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So I think based on this, people have formed this understanding that you know data centers are something we should push back.
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So on the pop culture side of it, we're starting to see memes in Portuguese about data centers.
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And I think that's a good value of like, okay, people now understand, right?
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I would say it's still very um limited to a progressive, environmentally concerned share of society, but it is happening.
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And I think people are starting to speak more and more in their like friendly family circles about it.
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Yesterday, uh one of my friends said, Oh, today my English class, my teacher spoke about data centers, and she actually used one of your stories.
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You know, this is a person totally disconnected from me.
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So I think it it goes to show that people are starting to create awareness.
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It's still nothing compared to what is happening in the US, but I also think that's explained by the fact that the data centers aren't really here yet.
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They're not fully ready.
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So I think once people start to see them, and I think it's very physical, right?
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Once you see it, you listen to it, I expect, yeah, things to pick up a bit.
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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And and I feel like, you know, when I look at Canada where I am, there was not a lot of attention paid on data centers until we started to have a lot of proposals of like really big projects.
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And of course, we were also seeing what was happening in the United States.
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So there's certainly that kind of like learning from their experience and then knowing what is coming for us in a way that I, you know, I'm sure is happening in Brazil as well, right?
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And so I want to move on to the model of data centers in Brazil because to me, this feels really unique.
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Like it's not something that I feel like I have seen in other jurisdictions where it feels like the data centers in many cases are being proposed by renewable energy companies, right?
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And are very dependent on renewable power in the Northeast in particular.
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Can you talk to us about what we're seeing on that front in Brazil and how it might be different than in other jurisdictions?
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Yeah, I think that's definitely a very unique angle to Brazil.
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So what we're seeing in the rest of the world are technology companies struggling to find energy to supply their data centers, right?
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To the point where in the US they're considering keeping coal mines running to supply the data centers.
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So, like, you know, countries or companies and developers are going to absurd extents to justify this data center development.
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In Brazil, and I have to take a step back and not speak about data centers here for a moment, you know, Brazil is a very clean, our energy matrix is very clean compared to many countries around the world.
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Um, 80% of our energy comes from clean sources.
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That includes hydropower, um, wind, and solar.
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This happened because many years ago, I would say like 10, 15, 20 years ago, there were lots of incentives for renewable energy generation.
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So companies got tax benefits, there was this big push to decarbonize Brazil, and it actually worked.
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But we didn't invest on the same level in distributing this energy.
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So, what this means is we have lots of generation of renewable energy, but we're not able to spread this out into the country.
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Again, Brazil is a huge country, almost a continent in itself.
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So the challenges are very real, and this means that the energy is kind of stuck in this area where it's generated.
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Most of this energy is generated in the northeast of Brazil.
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Let me explain this because I also learned about this.
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Um, if you have too much generation, it can overburn the grid.
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So, like it can lead that the grid to a tipping point where you have blackouts.
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And this actually happened to Brazil in 2023.
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It was a massive blackout.
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So today, what happens is renewable energy generators, providers are forced to turn off generation because if they produce too much, it burns down the grid, right?
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So they're pissed off.
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Like, you know, they spend lots of money in installing generation, building wind turbines.
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Many of these companies are foreign, and then they have to turn off their generation.
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So they have been for the last many years pressuring the government to find a fix to their solution, to their problem.
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And the government has now found them.
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Data centers, right?
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Because data centers are the perfect clients.
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They're like renewable or they're reliable clients, they need energy 24-7, and their operation is projected for like 10, 15 years at least.
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So you know that you have a client who needs you desperately, right?
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I think more than any other industry, data centers really need energy.
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So what we're seeing in Brazil is actually the opposite, right?
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Where in other countries, developers and technology companies look for the energy.
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In Brazil, the energy looks for the data centers.
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So we tracked, and this is um a special project we did at the intercept with Monga Bay and the support of the Pulitzer Center, we were able to track that 60% of the requests to install data centers in Brazil come from renewable energy companies.
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This means that renewable energy companies are transforming themselves, they're like changing their core businesses to also become tech companies.
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To me, this was like very mind-blowing at first because at you this means you're at the same time the energy provider and the consumer.
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Like, how does this declaration work, right?
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What actually happens in practice is they do all the you know bureaucratic clearing, they do the licensing, and then once the data center is ready, a tech company comes and takes over it.
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Many of these data centers will be AI data centers, like the ones we've been able to track, the companies they use this in the justification saying that AI needs lots of energy, and this is an opportunity for their businesses also to fix the curtailment problem.
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Curtailment is the technical name for this surplus of energy, but others will be just regular cloud or processing data centers.
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This is happening and it's happening fast.
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And the point I want to make is because you know the data center policy um includes this obligation for companies to generate their own energy, renewable energy companies are in the best position to take up this market.
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:26.640
So I expect you know this number I just mentioned 60% to increase.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.240
Because also for tech companies, this is a really good arrangement.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:35.039
Like they don't have to figure out where the energy will come from because this is already solved.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.319
Like once they arrive, all the problems are actually cleared, right?
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:43.680
Of course, in some places, water will still be a problem, but the energy is fixed.
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:48.079
And we know that you're able to fix the water problem with more energy.
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:52.000
And if you have like almost infinite energy, then you don't actually have a problem.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:56.640
So I think this kind of, you know, it's um very complicated to explain.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:05.519
And when I mention this to people outside Brazil, they're like, yeah, but uh, are you saying we shouldn't be using renewable energy um for data centers?
00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:24.000
And that's not what I'm saying, but we're worried in Brazil, and this is like, of course, an individual concern, but I've heard um then the former environmental minister say this that the demand from AI data centers justifies an increase in renewable energy production in Brazil.
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:25.759
And we don't need more production.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:32.960
As I said, we have plenty of energy, we need to distribute it across the country because we still have also coal mines in Brazil.
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:35.359
In the south of Brazil, we still have coal mines.
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:47.680
It's a matter of like what are the priorities and if this arrival of AI data centers using up this surplus of clean energy could risk our energy transition in Brazil.
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:56.799
Like, does this mean we're still going to have to rely more on fossil fuels for the next few years because the data centers are using up the clean energy that we have?
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.680
And then very important.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:07.440
Also, to say that although renewable energy is clean and much, much better than fossil fuels, it's not free of impacts.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:14.000
And communities, especially in the northeast of Brazil, have for many years spoken about how they're being impacted.
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:24.799
It's like a data center, it makes so much noise, wind power, it impacts their livelihoods because they raise animals and you know their crops are also impacted.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:38.000
So I think we also have to think: is it worth it like installing more renewable energy projects like wind turbines on top of these people for the energy to be used by AI data centers?
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.960
Like I think that's a discussion that needs to be made in the next few years.
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:45.680
And right now it's still not happening, I guess.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:46.960
Absolutely.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:57.200
And I think that you've given us so much to dig into there, like a fantastic oversight of what is going on in Brazil and how it's like fascinating, but also a bit convoluted in different ways.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:59.759
And I want to dig into some different pieces of that.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:16.400
Um, like obviously, the first thing that really stands out to me is how in Brazil, I feel like we have like the opposite problem that we see in so many other parts of the world where we're seeing data centers be built out, where there you have a surplus of renewable energy that is being used for data centers.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:27.920
And I feel like when we look at parts of the United States or say in Alberta up here in Canada, there's a surplus of natural gas, and they are looking for markets for gas.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:41.519
And so data centers become, as you're saying, for the renewable operators down in Brazil, they become the reliable operators that are going to need, you know, a reliable large supply of gas in order to power their data centers.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:52.160
And, you know, in Brazil, it's it's the renewables that are that are stepping in to do that, which seems like, I don't know, fascinating to see the difference in those two scenarios, you know.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:53.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:54.880
I think it's super interesting.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:58.400
And in some ways, it complicates the discussion, right?
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:04.319
Because it seems that like Brazilians don't really have a right to complain because we've had it so much better.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:14.079
But actually, um, it's still, you know, I'm not like um trying to classify who's like in a worse position or not, but it's still also very complicated.
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:24.799
And and I think the big discussion, it's not, it shouldn't be restricted to Brazil because you know it's in everyone's best interest that the world uses less fossil fuels.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:31.680
So I think we should think like, is this the best use that we want to make for Brazil's renewable energy?
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:39.759
Um, being Brazil is such a big country and such a big neighbor also in the region, like what happens in Brazil impacts the rest of the countries.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:44.319
Although we're now surrounded by right-wing governments, that's also interesting.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.839
Um but it's a complicated discussion.
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.880
And as you know, you mentioned the natural gas um sector.
00:24:53.279 --> 00:25:02.079
It's funny because after Lula sanctioned the law, they started pressuring the government because they also want in, they also want a little share of this new market, right?
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:08.160
So they're trying to change or like amend the law to include the possibility to use natural gas.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:09.119
Of course.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:13.200
Again, the saying, you know, like you give the hand, they want the whole arm.
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:14.640
Of course.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:17.200
Yeah, it's not a surprise at all that they that they would do that.
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:18.960
Uh, but it's so frustrating to see.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:26.240
I guess, I guess the data centers up in the northeast will be powered by renewables, and then the ones like down in the south will be powered by gas or something like that.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:39.200
Yeah, but it's actually so funny, Paris, because when we were doing this report, we would learn about data centers that are here, like in my area of the country, being powered by plants that are coming up in the northeast.
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:41.039
And I was like, how is this possible?
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:48.400
And then one expert told me, like, yeah, it's not as if the neutrons were traveling like through the grid and arriving in Sao Paulo, but it's a compensation, right?
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:54.880
If you're because we have this is also different from the US, Brazil has an uh interconnected national grid.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:56.559
Like we're all on one grid.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:23.759
Um, I understand that in the US they're like separate local regional grids, but in Brazil, this means that if um Serena, which is like one of the renewable energy companies, is producing more in the Northeast and it has an agreement with, I don't know, like Scala, a data center provider or developer here in uh the southeast of Brazil, it's able to consume more here because there has been compensation on that end of the grid.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:33.279
It's so weird because there's a data center in the extreme south of the country using energy from a data center or from um a power plant in Bahia.
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.160
And like they couldn't be further away, right?
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:42.559
But there's also a different case where the data centers are being installed right next to the generation.
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:58.400
And this is where I think it gets complicated because you know, communities have been already grappling with the impact of renewables for many years, their lands have already been ravaged by because you know it to build wind turbines.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:01.839
I only learned this when I did field work and I saw the impact.
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:12.880
Although there are like basically sticks on the ground, there's a lot of impact to the surrounding biome, and you have to build out roads to access like the mountain areas.
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:26.720
So it's not only that communities that have grappled with the impacts of this type of construction, now they're also having to deal with the data centers because the companies they don't want to spend money, so they're putting data centers right next to the generation.
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:37.119
So you see, in some places like these landscapes that are completely beautiful because that's a beautiful area of Brazil, and data centers are just falling there, right?
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:38.640
This is going to happen more and more.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:46.480
So I think we have these two arrangements where people consume energy from far away, but also the data centers coming right next to the generation.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:48.799
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.480
And I want to come back to what you were saying there on renewables in just a second.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.599
But I also want to pick up on what you're saying about transmission, right?
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.640
Because this is really important.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.759
You know, there's a lot of generation up there in the Northeast.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:14.160
There is a national grid, as you're saying, but clearly not enough transmission to take that energy and bring it to other parts of Brazil where, again, it could displace that 20 odd percent or or whatnot of fossil fuels that is still on the grid that is still being used.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:23.359
And so then my question becomes: how is there the investment in the fiber infrastructure to make it necessary for the data centers to be able to locate up there?
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:30.559
But then there's not the investment in the transmission that could instead, you know, have the power being moved elsewhere in Brazil.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:33.039
Also, great question.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:46.240
And I think the answer is um the development in fiber infrastructure like to enable these data centers is being done by the companies themselves, whereas transmission investments should be done by the government, and it's such a big cost.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.440
The government just cannot afford to take up on this cost.
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:54.559
So this actually means who can pay more for the energy is the one to get it, right?
00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:07.279
Um, so like it's as if companies they're putting a price on yeah, they're putting a price on renewable energy because they're the ones who are able to fund this type of development right now, whereas the government has not been able.
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:17.519
What is also important to say is that, you know, in Brazil, we haven't, I haven't found a case where utility prices have risen because of data centers yet.
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:26.480
But the power companies, like they're the they're the connection between the transmitters or distributors and the final consumers, right?
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:39.839
We found documents where they're complaining to the energy authority that because data centers are connecting to the grid, in some places the grid is requiring additional investments like to strengthen the infrastructure.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.119
And this price for this type of construction is being shared among consumers.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:55.279
So they're going to the energy authority and saying, hey, it's not fair that we have to pay the price for this improvement to the grid that is only being done because a data center is connecting.
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:57.440
So like, why should we pay the price?
00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:59.359
So again, this is the first stage.
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:05.119
The next stage is that this increase in price will be diluted among consumers.
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:10.160
So eventually we are going to pay the price for the data centers connecting to the grid.
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:11.519
Absolutely.
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:20.000
And especially as you say that, you know, a lot of these data centers are still in the planning phases or construction phases at the moment, so they wouldn't be consuming the electricity yet.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:26.640
So then, you know, again, another reason why those price increases might still be coming but haven't been felt, you know, so far.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.799
Um, I do want to pick up on uh go back to what you were saying about the renewables, right?
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:40.799
And the and the kind of issues that communities have had with renewables as we start to talk about the impacts of this development on communities in the Northeast in particular.
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:50.400
Because I feel like for people who maybe don't pay a load of attention to, you know, the way that renewables are built out, this can seem like a really odd argument, right?
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:56.799
Like, why wouldn't you just want renewables to be built near your community because then it can displace fossil fuels and all this kind of stuff?
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:01.599
But it is also important to recognize that how the renewables are built is important, right?
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.160
Are the communities actually involved in that development?
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:05.519
Are they being consulted?
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.759
Are they benefiting from uh you know that development that's happening?
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.920
Is the impacts on their communities, the local environment, really being considered?
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:18.559
There are ways to build out renewables that do consider those things, and there are other ways that don't.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:28.319
And I imagine, based on what you're saying, that you know, it's kind of private energy generation companies coming in, not really considering community impacts and just building out this generation.
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:29.519
But but what are we seeing there?
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:32.640
Can you give us some more nuance on how that works?
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:33.519
Sure.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:38.319
So I think um renewable energy uh construction is a lot similar to data centers.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:44.319
And I learned this because I first did data center stories and then I started learning about energy projects, right?
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:54.640
So I think people have this um wrong idea that renewable energy projects are built in deserts or like in areas that are not occupied.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:55.599
And that's not true.
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.160
People live there, but also, you know, animals live there.
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:01.759
These are important area areas for biomes in Brazil.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:09.920
So in Bahia, the region where I visited, that's kind of on the edge of Chapada Jamanchina, which is basically a plateau we have in Brazil.
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.240
It's a national park, beautiful place.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:14.079
And people live there.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:27.920
Um, and that's alright, also a very delicate biome called cachinga, like the um balance in that biome is very delicate, it's very important, it recharges underground water, and people live there, right?
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:32.319
Many communities live there, and their way of life is very different from like my life.
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:35.279
They um raise animals, they plant.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:42.880
Um, in many of these areas, we have traditional peoples from Brazil, like quilombala communities or indigenous communities.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:52.000
So I think the impacts from renewable energy construction already begin with the process of the companies arriving to these lands.
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:59.920
Many of these companies are foreign, so we've had a big share of Italian companies, German companies, French companies.
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:20.880
And the way they establish this connection with the community is already complicated because you know, communities for years have been denouncing that they're pressured into signing contracts that are not interesting to them because they're basically contracts, like 10-year-long contracts with automatic renewal.
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:30.240
Like the company just renews the contract, and they're paid basically on a monthly basis for turbines that are installed on their territories.
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:50.240
But then someone did a calculation, and um, like one of the communities I visited, they they told me a lawyer did the calculation, and what they earn yearly is like 0.000001% of the energy company's yearly like um income or um profit, right?
00:33:50.319 --> 00:34:03.359
And of course, this makes sense because to the scale of money is super different um for the communities, but it's not fair because although they're being paid, they're also the ones who are stuck with the impacts.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.440
And then the impacts vary a lot.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:08.559
I would say the biggest is really the noise.
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:14.559
Um, I think like data centers, um, when turbines emit this constant hum.
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:21.039
I read a story yesterday, uh, a resident described it as a plane that never lands.
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:26.400
So imagine a plane, like the noise of a plane, but it never stops because it never lands.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:33.440
Of course, at night the noise is worse because when the whole earth gets silent, um, you hear it more.
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:38.719
And this noise affects both us humans to a level where it's not really conscious.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:46.320
You know, we don't recognize, but it starts messing with your sleep, um, with your whole circadian rhythm, but it also affects animals.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:56.159
And, you know, this member of the community told me once they built the tower, the animals started going crazy and they started just running away.
00:34:56.320 --> 00:35:02.239
So my her dad lost many of the animals he had been raising for years because they went crazy with the noise.
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:05.280
The construction is also full of impacts.
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.360
To install a wind turbine, you have to bomb the area.
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:12.239
You have like a detonation, control detonation, right?
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:16.400
But that means many of the houses um have cracks in them.
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:18.000
It means again the noise.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:20.800
Children are at school when this is happening.
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:24.000
There's, you know, so many impacts that I never considered.
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:40.239
They told me that when the wind turbines are arriving to the area where they're being installed, traffic builds up because you need these long, long, long trucks to be able to bring in trucks like that are patrolled by state police because they're so heavy, right?
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:45.440
So, so many impacts that have repeated themselves for at least 15 years.
00:35:45.599 --> 00:36:05.039
And then there are the impacts on the towns, also, you know, lots of construction workers that are from outside come in and the prices rise because there's people from outside, and then once they leave, the prices are still up because business owners don't want to bring them down, and this increases the cost of life for people in general.
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:13.280
So it's a cycle of every time a wind turbine complex is expanded, this happens again.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.760
So they're kind of tired, you know, they're saying like no.
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:35.199
And there are some communities that are they've reached the point where they don't sign the contracts with the companies, so they don't authorize the installation of turbines inside their territories, but that means that the company installs the turbine like on the edge of it, and they still have to live with the impacts, so it's very complicated.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:42.960
I'm speaking more of wind because I think that's the strongest in the uh northeast of Brazil, but solar is also um coming.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:52.639
Solar requires so much land, it's a bit different than uh turbine uh wind turbines because solar is um more horizontal, right?
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:57.360
But you need lots and lots and lots of land that could also be used for something else.
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.679
So yeah, I think the impacts are pretty documented.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:10.239
Um, it's funny because when we published these last stories, I got some messages of people saying, like, yeah, but what is the solution?
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:14.159
And then others would comment, oh, we have to install them in the ocean.
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:18.239
And that's actually a discussion right now in Brazil, offshore wind production.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:23.360
And then other people come in and say, Yeah, but in the ocean, we also have creatures, right?
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:30.719
Like sea creatures that also don't deserve to have their whole lives um ravaged by wind turbines.
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.239
So we're basically just pushing this to the edge of the earth, right?
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:38.159
Like, and people want to install data centers in space.
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:53.519
So I think the discussion is there needs to be a more sustainable, a more conscious, a more respectful way of installing renewables, but also ensuring the energy transition happens smoothly.
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:56.880
And I think data centers really complicate the equation, right?
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:02.559
Because what we're saying here is yes, we need renewables, yes, we're going to have to pay a price for it.
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:08.159
The communities are already paying a price, they have to be compensated in some way.
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:17.360
But if you put renewables in the equation, this means we're gonna, or I'm sorry, if you put data centers into the equation, this means you're going to need even more renewables.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:20.719
And that complicates it all again.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:30.960
Absolutely, because then you need to build so many more of these projects, and already they're not being built with the community in mind, you know, thinking about the impacts, all those sorts of things.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:34.639
And so then it's even exacerbated because you need to build so much more.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:55.679
As you said earlier, I think, but also I read in your stories that you know, even though so many of these energy companies need to like turn off their renewables or stop adding power to the grid because you know they're generating so much more than the grid can handle, that they're still building more renewables in anticipation of these data centers that they're hoping to be to be powering.
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:56.559
Exactly.
00:38:56.719 --> 00:39:11.039
So, like, you know, the moment should be of us stopping expansion and kind of like replanning around what we have, but actually, AI data centers are justifying an expansion on top of the surplus that we already have.
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.320
That's crazy, right?
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:13.840
Like, we don't need more generation.
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:15.360
I think this is what people need to understand.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:21.199
We need better planning to distribute this energy across Brazil and find better uses for it.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.559
But again, who pays the who pays the highest price?
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:34.719
I think the government, and well, we're gonna speak about elections, but to me, it's interesting that the government seem it seems like they went with the easiest solution.
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:41.119
Of course, planning distribution and transmission lines requires so much more and it costs so much more.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:46.480
But in the long term, it's a more sustainable solution, one that benefits the entire population.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:53.440
But right now it's like, okay, data centers are renewable energy companies are complaining so much for the past few years.
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:56.719
Data centers arrive, okay, you know, like it's fixed.
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:01.199
Um you you you between you two, you make an arrangement, and we're not gonna get involved.
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:03.119
This is what's happening.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:04.320
Absolutely.
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:09.280
And so I have two other kind of you know, quicker questions, I guess, on this piece.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:11.840
And then I want to kind of move on and ask you something else.
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:21.119
When we look at these data centers that are being planned and constructed in Brazil, you mentioned that the renewable energy companies are often the ones that are kind of spearheading this process, right?
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.719
What are the impacts of those data centers when they get built?
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:32.079
You know, I know there's been a lot of discussion of this TikTok uh data center in particular, um, but I know that there are other ones in the process too.
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:41.519
And once these data centers are set up, obviously in the TikTok case, it's a Chinese company, but do they tend to be then controlled by the major US tech companies?
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:45.039
You know, who ends up running these data centers at the end of the day?
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:58.960
When we know, uh I think that's also like the point of having energy companies do the whole spearheading, is that we only learn about the final client very later on.
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:01.920
And to the big tech companies, this is super beneficial, right?
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:05.599
They don't get their hands dirty so early on in the process.
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:08.880
Again, the TikTok case, this is exactly what happened.
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:10.719
It was a renewable energy company.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:16.559
And at one point, we were able to find out, like with government sources, it was TikTok.
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:21.840
So we were able to name TikTok, and that changed the game because people recognize TikTok.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:26.239
Um, they know TikTok is a social network, they use it.
00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:31.840
I think they're able to connect that infrastructure to what it actually means.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.800
If you tell people it's a renewable energy company, they're like, how does this make sense, right?
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:37.920
In the final equation.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:40.159
So it's very important to be able to name them.
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:46.880
The TikTok data center in terms of impact, I think the biggest concern in that area is water.
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:51.840
So we're speaking of um this town that is right next to Fortaleza.
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:53.679
Fortaleza is the capital of Ceará.
00:41:54.159 --> 00:42:14.880
And this town is a very, in terms of yeah, area, it's a very big town, city, or whatever it's called, Caucaya is the name of it, where you have the coastal area, this middle area that is um like the urbanized area, and you already have an area that is um in the countryside and that's very dry.
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:22.880
But still, right next to data center, you have communities that don't have access to clean potable water because the water never reached them.
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:32.719
And what these communities are saying is that you know, we already have some months in the year where we're not able to get water from our um cisterns.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:37.119
What will happen with the data center pumping out more water from the ground?
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:40.079
So they're concerned about the water impact.
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:43.119
Again, energy is still a problem in that area.
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:49.360
These same communities, they tell us that when it rains, sometimes they go for days without power.
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:51.440
So power is also a problem.
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:56.159
But the biggest impact there is that this data center is on indigenous land.
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:58.400
And I think that makes the story very different, right?
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:04.400
Because we're not speaking only of very tangible impacts, but we're speaking of this more spiritual level.
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:11.440
So, right next to data center, there's a big body of water, it's a lagoon, um, it's very big.
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:14.880
And to the indigenous that live there, that has a sacred meaning.
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:20.480
TikTok is pumping water out of the ground, but it's connected to that body of water.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:25.280
So they're saying, if this dries up, what does this mean for us?
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:27.840
Like, you know, this lagoon has such a sacred meaning.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:32.159
If it's gone, how does our spirituality continue?
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:40.239
These are things that don't make it into environmental reports, they oftentimes don't make it into the story, but these are things that should be considered, right?
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:43.039
The indigenous are speaking about this very frequently.
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:54.800
They also have this interesting understanding, you know, TikTok would say, or like the developers would say, Yeah, but the water returns because it evaporates, like it's going back to the environment.
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:58.639
And then the indigenous would say, Yeah, but to us, that water is dead.
00:43:58.800 --> 00:43:59.760
Water that has passed.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.079
Through an electronic system is dead.
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:03.039
It's useless.
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:06.719
Like, you know, the spiritual component is gone.
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:11.119
So, again, you will never read this in an environmental report.
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:21.280
There's also, I think, a level of racism there where we don't consider the meanings of these things for these communities, but it should be considered also.
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:25.519
So I would say that's the impact in the TikTok case.
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:29.679
In many other cases, again, I would say the impact is water.
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:36.079
So data centers that are coming up in Sao Paulo, around my area, water is a problem.
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:48.719
I would say we're not having a problem with water right now because this has been the rainiest September ever, but usually September were we have rationing, um, water rationing in many, many houses.
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:54.400
Um, and data centers are coming up in this area and many close together.
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:56.000
What water will they use?
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:58.639
So this is again um a question.
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:03.199
Recently uh we saw the announcement of a data center in Beling, Du Pará.
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:10.159
So that's already the Amazon, and they've been calling it the first Amazonian data center, as if this was like a good selling point.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:14.079
The community there is really worried about what this means.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:18.480
It's interesting because uh the problem there is power.
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:23.679
The area where the data center will be built, is an area that goes without power for many days.
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:31.360
Water is not really a problem there because, of course, the Amazon is so humid, although they're going through a drought now.
00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:41.119
But what communities there have been saying, and also journalists, activists, is about this boundary that they're worried will be crossed.
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:49.119
Like if you're able to install a data center on the edge of the Amazon rainforest, what happens if you go next, like after, right?
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:58.880
So they're worried about breaking this boundary of which has been an invisible line that hasn't been crossed yet in terms of like technology companies.
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:01.199
So I think these would be the impacts.
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:04.639
Again, what we're still very early on, things haven't happened.
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:11.280
Um, I think in two years we'll be able to say what is actually how how are these data centers impacting?
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:21.119
These are just some forecasts that we have based on what we've been able to learn about energy consumption and water consumption and the areas where these data centers will be installed.
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:32.719
But I wouldn't say we're in a situation where the prognosis is good, where like we're, you know, abundant natural resources, please come and use up whatever you would like.
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:38.960
This is not the case, but this is what is being sold to these companies, also internationally.
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:43.280
Yeah, I think that's a really good overview for us.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:47:02.960
And you know, when you talk about, you know, even up in the indigenous areas where data centers are being built, again, it's like the the economic value that can get considered that you know is is justifiable, that people care about um, you know, the environmental impacts might make it into a report, as you say, but are not as highly valued or considered.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:10.880
Um and then of course, you know, kind of the spiritual value, if you think about uh indigenous people and whatnot, is just like this doesn't matter, right?
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:13.920
Yeah, yeah, completely trashed, yeah.
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:15.760
And I think that's the case, you know.
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:21.760
Like I I spoken to um I spoke to this lady who was involved in a data center resistance in Alaska.
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:22.800
That was also the case.
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:25.119
I think in Canada that's also the case, right?
00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:34.159
So these points have to be considered, and I think as as journalists, we have the duty to write about them because otherwise we're also making them invisible.
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:36.320
It doesn't make it into the stories.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:42.559
Like then it's a very black or white story about water or energy, and that's it.
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.599
No, there are other impacts that need to be considered.
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:47.199
I completely agree.
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:48.000
Completely agree.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:48:01.360
Now, we've talked a lot about Brazil and what's going on in your country, but I was hoping we could zoom out a little bit and talk a little bit about other parts of Latin America just briefly to get a picture of you know what we're seeing across the continent.
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:17.679
I feel like there was a lot of attention on Chile for a while and you know the data centers that were being constructed there and the fights against them as well as they were demanding water and electricity, that it didn't seem that the communities and you know cities could actually provide to these data centers.
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:22.719
Now, a lot of that discussion was happening under President uh Gabriel Boris, right?
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.920
The left-wing president who was in power there for quite some time.
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:32.320
Since then, we have seen a very right-wing president uh take power uh in Chile instead.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:35.599
How are things shifting in Chile right now?
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:41.280
And how is this new government uh you know treating the tech industry and the data center industry?
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:43.119
Yeah, you're right.
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:53.920
It was already banned before um under the government of Gabriel Boric, and this is the case right for many of our countries, like left-wing governments, um, just pushing the data center agenda.
00:48:54.159 --> 00:49:01.519
What we have seen after um CAST, the new president, took power, is more opacity.
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:08.480
Surprisingly, Chile was a country where um people were able to obtain good, reliable information about data centers.
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:17.119
And I guess that explains why we saw such a strong movement uh resisting to the Google data center in Cerrillos.
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:25.440
That was probably the big, the first big case of data center resistance in Latin America, and they were able to stop the Google data center, right?
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:36.480
Because, and I I have some uh journalist friends who have covered Chile and the data centers, they they would tell me we're able to source good information from the environmental reports.
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:46.159
Um, the environmental authority requires a good level of information from data centers, and this is public, so we're able to get our hands on it and write good stories.
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:47.599
This has changed.
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:56.639
What has happened since CAS took power is that there's this special exemption for data centers where they don't have to undergo the full environmental licensing.
00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:01.840
So all these documents and records that would be public no longer exist.
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:10.159
And this means many data centers are coming into existence without people learning about them and without them undergoing the full environmental license.
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:20.159
So they're getting a green light without governments actually knowing if that area is able to absorb that demand, including the Google data centers.
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:21.519
So I read about this.
00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:28.960
Um, the data center that was stopped by the community has now gotten a green light under this new reviewed process.
00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:36.000
So this is really bad because it not only means that more data centers, but also more data centers that we know very little about.
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:56.400
I think this is kind of what is happening in Chile, and the expectation is, of course, more data centers because once you clear these hurdles and you make it easier for them and less reputational damage also because they don't have to stress this process of public environmental licensing, it makes it more interesting and appealing, right?
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:58.400
So absolutely.
00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:11.280
I I wonder then, you know, looking at what's happening in Chile, is that kind of pressure to build data centers that we're seeing, you know, on that side of South America and then obviously in Brazil kind of pouring into the other countries?
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:21.039
You know, I think, of course, of Argentina, where there's a president who is very well liked by the US president and US industry, um, you know, Javier Milai.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:27.199
Um, what what are we seeing you know in in some of those other countries down in South America and Argentina in particular?
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:31.199
I think this is definitely spreading, but it's also very interesting.
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:36.400
I mentioned, you know, Brazil is now surrounded by this belt of right-wing governments.
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:41.519
So like Chile, Argentina, um, Paraguay, um, Colombia.
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:50.159
So all of the governments that, you know, Colombia was the last standing uh left-wing government in the region uh after Brazil.
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:54.880
This means that now Trump has this belt because they're all allied to Trump.
00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:00.480
Um, it's not only that they're right-wing governments, they're right-wing governments allied to the US government.
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:11.760
So Trump has now this direct pipeline into countries that have a good availability of energy and also natural resources and a strategic location, right?
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.320
Because South America is a strategic location.
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:26.159
So I would say beyond Chile, we also have Argentina, where you're right, um Javier Millet is a very pro-Trump guy, but he's also a very pro-business sector guy.
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:36.960
And uh we've seen announcements of data centers investments in Patagonia, because that's also in Argentina, where you have the biggest reserve of shale gas.
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:40.320
So again, they're looking for energy, and that's where the energy is.
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:48.159
And Miley is facilitating, I guess there's also a tax exemption package going on there to make Argentina more interesting.
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.159
It's also a good business environment.
00:52:50.320 --> 00:53:02.400
Apparently, it's a horrible environment for Argentinians to live in because the prices are crazy with hyperinflation, but apparently it's a good business environment for companies um from abroad to invest in.
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:04.320
So also insane, right?
00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:06.800
Like in this climate, like companies are coming in.
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:10.880
And of course, we have to worry because Patagonia is also a protected area.
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.679
There are also traditional peoples living there.
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:15.920
So that's the case for Argentina.
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:20.480
In fact, one of the invest uh projects announced there was Stargate.
00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:23.920
Uh, I don't think this announcement has really moved on.
00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:29.119
Uh, this was announced probably um last year or early this year.
00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:38.800
They just made this initial announcement that they were going to install the first Stargate project in Latin America and Argentina in Patagonia, but we haven't heard more since.
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:42.880
Of course, Peter Thiel and his buddies have been seen in Argentina.
00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:49.920
There's this whole story of tech bros making, you know, like um summer or winter homes or whatever in Argentina.
00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:54.559
So there is interest in Argentina, again, because of this facilitation.
00:53:54.880 --> 00:54:00.639
There is a country I want to mention, Paraguay, also now under a right-wing presidency.
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:10.000
And Paraguay is a very small country, but it holds something that is very important to the US, which is energy and also clean renewable energy.
00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:17.679
Paraguay is on the triple border between Argentina and Brazil, and there's a dam, hydropower dam in that border called Itaipu.
00:54:18.320 --> 00:54:23.679
And there's, you know, this decades-long agreement that the energy is shared between the countries.
00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:26.719
But look, Brazil is way bigger than Paraguay.
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:27.760
Argentina is also bigger.
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:32.480
So Paraguay never uses up the full energy that it is entitled to.
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:37.760
For the past decades, there was an agreement that it would sell its surplus to Brazil.
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:39.599
This agreement is now ending.
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:45.840
So very soon, Paraguay will hold this surplus of energy and they have to decide what to do with it.
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:49.679
So last year there was a visit from Macro Rubio.
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:53.119
Of course, they're already very interested in this energy.
00:54:53.280 --> 00:55:05.519
We're seeing crypto uh currency data centers install themselves in Paraguay, but also now technology AI data centers installing themselves ready to take up this surplus of energy.
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:13.599
This is happening because governments are welcoming these types of investments, but it's not an exclusivity to the right-wing governments, um, right?
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:21.360
I think we can discuss this, but we're seeing this also in Mexico and Brazil that are controlled by progressive governments, so to speak.
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:23.679
I think that's fascinating.
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:28.320
And I didn't know that about um Paraguay and and how things were working out there.
00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:31.440
It you know, it it comes to mind as I hear you talk about these things.
00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:36.400
It's not the first time we've seen Nazis flee to uh to Argentina, you know, as we're seeing.
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:38.079
You're so right.
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:39.039
You're so right.
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:42.239
Yeah, they're they're seeking for uh refuge there.
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:45.679
They're building their bunkers there, probably, right, when the world ends.
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:51.199
And I guess Peter Teal has some backup bunkers as well, one in New Zealand, one in Argentina, you know.
00:55:51.440 --> 00:56:13.440
I I was also, you know, as you were talking about Patagonia, it brought to mind something I was thinking when you were talking about the renewable energy projects in the northeast of Brazil as well, where you know, I think it can feel like a very odd thing to hear about people against renewable energy projects, but it brought to mind actually, you know, I'm located currently in Newfoundland, which is on the east coast of Canada, of course.
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:21.599
And there was a wind project that was proposed here that was in one of our kind of like, you know, protected areas, right?
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:25.119
And obviously people were very against it, right?
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:31.119
You know, they have no problem with renewable energy, but it was like there's so many places where you can build wind turbines.
00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:34.480
Why would you place it in a protected park, right?
00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:36.159
Like this this makes no sense.
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:54.480
And so it just to me was an indication of how, you know, there are very many reasons why you can oppose a specific renewable energy project without opposing renewable energy in general, just because the way it's approached is not in line with things that you know communities would be okay with or would accept.
00:56:54.639 --> 00:56:58.639
Um, now I want to pivot back to Brazil as we start to close off our conversation.
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:03.360
You've given us good insight on some other countries in um South America.
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:08.719
But you know, as I mentioned earlier, there is an election happening in Brazil as we speak.
00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:31.599
Now, we're speaking before the first round of voting, which happens in early October, but this will be published in between the first and second round of voting when we expect uh Lula and you know his uh far right opponent, uh Flavio Bolsonaro, of course, son of the Bolsonaro who was who was president previously, uh, to kind of be in the finals for uh the presidency.
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:50.800
I guess my question is you know, looking at these two candidates and how things might be going, what do you think this is going to mean, not just for data centers in Brazil, but for tech policy and just for Brazil in general as we get closer to this final vote and this decision as to who will be the next president?
00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:54.000
That's a very interesting question.
00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:57.440
Uh I would say let's start with data centers, right?
00:57:57.519 --> 00:58:08.000
Because when you look at what their policies are for data centers or at least their intentions, we know a lot about what Lula thinks about data centers because of the policies of this past government.
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:18.239
But in terms of what Flavio thinks, we've heard him speak about it, and we have some details in his government plan, which is not very detailed, by the way, but they're basically the same.
00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:21.199
Um, and this really complicates the discussion, right?
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:30.800
Because you have two opposing projects of a country, like they couldn't be more different, but they agree on tech policy in this run, specifically data centers, right?
00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:37.679
They think, yes, we need to open up Brazil for data center investments from uh foreign technology companies.
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:43.119
We do need to grant uh tax exemptions, we need to bring in these data centers.
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:44.960
So they're able to agree on that.
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:52.719
And you know, this also means Lula, Lula's policy compares to like Millet's policy in some ways.
00:58:52.880 --> 00:59:02.880
Um where they start to diverge, and this is an important point to make, is they have different ideas on sovereignty, right?
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:14.639
Over the past few weeks, we've seen Flavio Bolsonaro, his brothers, not his dad, because he's arrested, but I I'm sure he would say the same thing, bend the knee to Trump more than ever.
00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:20.800
Literally, there have been calls from them and allies for Trump to intervene in Brazil.
00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:22.480
They're asking for an intervention.
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:24.000
I think that's insane.
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:32.400
But this means that they've made it very clear that this is a government that will be allied to the US as none before.
00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:47.360
Can I ask, when you say intervention, are they asking more for Trump to like speak out and endorse uh Flavio Bolsonaro as, you know, as the candidate or something more in line with what we saw in Venezuela recently?
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:49.360
I think it's up in the air.
00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:54.639
Uh yes, uh endorsement, they have been asking for endorsement.
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:56.400
I think it's been given in one way.
00:59:56.480 --> 01:00:01.199
Like the fact that you know Trump receives them in the White House, there is a level of endorsement there.
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:05.920
But they're also asking for this type of more like on-the-ground action.
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:23.760
For example, they've asked Trump to designate two Brazilian factions, criminal factions, as terrorist groups or foreign terrorist organizations, like Trump did with the pandillas in El Salvador, like he did with Venezuelan groups, also Colombian groups.
01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:27.760
So, you know, in Venezuela they intervened after this came.
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:30.719
In Colombia, they started striking fishermen boats.
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:37.519
So, what is what is the next step after you designate domestic groups as foreign terrorist organizations?
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:46.320
But they're also asking, and this has happened, um, for some intervention on the legal front.
01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:53.360
So you must remember that Alexandrich Moraes, one of our Supreme Court justices, is being sued by Rumble.
01:00:53.440 --> 01:01:02.559
There's a suit in the US, um, Rumble against Moraes, kind of pushing back against decisions that Moraes took in the Brazilian Supreme Court against Rumble.
01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:04.719
This is one thing.
01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:12.000
When uh Eduardo and Flavio, Eduardo's the other brother, and Flavio, he's in exile in the US right now.
01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:20.559
But when Flavio and Eduardo were in the US, they met with Trump and asked, they were there when Trump applied the tariffs.
01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:31.199
And what is the basis or like the legal justification for the tariffs that Brazil is taking anti-competitive measures against US companies, including tech companies?
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:35.679
So, you know, tech policy is a common line in their connection to Trump.
01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:42.559
So, what we can expect is that in the case of a Flavio Bolsonaro presidency, one, deregulation.
01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:58.000
So I think all the efforts that the Lula government has been able to advance on the regulation front, the child online safety bill, I expect all this to be pushed back and other proposals that have been moving very slowly to be completely stopped.
01:01:58.159 --> 01:02:01.280
So it will be an environment of complete deregulation.
01:02:01.519 --> 01:02:09.679
And another important expectation is them opening the doors of the government to big tech.
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:11.280
Kind of like doge.
01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:24.480
You know, I don't want to uh say this out loud, but I would expect something like this where they let technology into the government to kind of clean out the government or like reduce expenses, make it more efficient.
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:31.360
And we know that there are connections between these groups and you know, Peter Thiel, um, Elon Musk.
01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:37.280
Like, there is uh a level of agreement and even ideological agreement.
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:40.719
So I would expect them to open Brazil's doors for these people.
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:51.920
And we know that these technology companies, because they're now allied to Trump, they also are allied to the project of Brazil that these people represent.
01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:58.559
So I'm also concerned what this means in terms of surveillance, press freedom, or even, you know, uh freedom of speech.
01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:03.599
What does this mean for Brazilians who are not voting for Flavio Bolsonaro this time around?
01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:06.000
So I think the prognosis isn't really good.
01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:15.280
It doesn't mean that with Lula, you know, there hasn't been big tech lobbying in the federal government or some level of like, yeah, big tech making contracts with the government.
01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:18.239
We've seen like Valentier starting to come into Brazil.
01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:25.920
So of course this is happening, but I would say in the case of a Flavio Bolsonaro presidency, like the doors will be pushed wide open.
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.800
Like it's an invitation for them to come into Brazil.
01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:31.920
So I'm concerned about this.
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.320
I think the signs are very worrisome.
01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:41.760
And then this, you know, is not only on the more intangible front, but also what it means for data centers.
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:46.480
Rare earths is something the US is definitely very interested in to get their hands on.
01:03:46.639 --> 01:03:52.960
In Brazil, we have big, big reserves of rare earth minerals, other strategic minerals as well.
01:03:53.119 --> 01:04:06.559
So, because you know, these these guys have bent the knee to Trump, I don't expect them to say no if Trump asks, like, yeah, I want to access this area, like this reserve of rare earths.
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:10.960
They will say yes because they're in some ways indebted to Trump, right?
01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:18.400
They they need Trump's endorsement approval to keep on going and rallying their crowds.
01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:21.039
So not good signs.
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:22.079
Not great.
01:04:22.159 --> 01:04:25.679
And of course, that would you mention this band of right-wing governments around Brazil.
01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:29.679
This would, you know, kind of absorp uh absorb Brazil into it.
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:41.840
Uh, and then, you know, Trump would have all of these aligned governments through South America then, which, you know, is obviously a terrible thing to see, including, you know, Venezuela, which is you know effectively controlled by the United States.
01:04:42.159 --> 01:04:49.519
Yeah, I don't know if you saw um Lula's uh so Lula opens the, or the president president generally opens the UN General Assembly.
01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:52.800
So this when we're recording, this was yesterday or two days ago.
01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:54.719
Lula spoke right before Trump.
01:04:54.880 --> 01:05:02.480
And it seems like he kind of knew what Trump was going to speak because he previously addressed all of like the absurds that Trump said.
01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:10.960
But he he gave one quote that was on like it was the headline of all the big newspapers, which is Brazil doesn't fit in no one's backyard.
01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:20.159
Um, as if he's saying, like, yeah, Trump, you've might you might have made these other countries around us your backyard or you're trying to, but Brazil won't bend.
01:05:20.480 --> 01:05:29.280
Um, in saying, like, yeah, it's not your backyard in terms of resources, but it's also not your ideological backyard where you can just, you know, like push your ideas.
01:05:29.519 --> 01:05:32.400
So this is what is at in dispute right now.
01:05:32.559 --> 01:05:41.280
And Lula has been able to very intelligently play the sovereignty story with his voters.
01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:43.199
I think people are starting to understand.
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:44.800
You know, we had the PIGS case.
01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:51.679
I didn't even go into this, but where Trump was like, yeah, I'm gonna ban PIGs because this is anti-competitive.
01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:57.760
But we've had episodes in the past few months where the idea of sovereignty has become very clear to people.
01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:00.000
Like it has become a tangible idea.
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:05.360
It's not just speculation of what could happen if the US intervenes in Brazil.
01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:09.199
So people, general people, are understanding what sovereignty means.
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:11.760
And this has become a campaign banner for Lula.
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:19.679
It's not really in the data center story, but in the rest, I think he's been able to show people this is why, this is what is at stake.
01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:25.360
A true sovereign project and a project of a country that will bend its need to the US.
01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:27.199
Yeah, that's really interesting.
01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:32.480
And certainly is relatable uh coming from Canada and seeing the narratives happening up here.
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:34.320
There's solidarity there.
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:35.280
100%.
01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:38.079
There should be more solidarity between Canada and Brazil.
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:43.360
Hopefully, those are there's something in between us, you know, like there's this big country in between us, I guess.
01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:44.239
What is that?
01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:46.639
We need to push that out of the way, I think.
01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:50.000
Um, but no, it's it's fascinating to hear about that.
01:06:50.159 --> 01:07:02.159
Obviously, you know, very much hoping that Bolsonaro too does not uh become president in Brazil for not just for you guys, but for for everybody, uh, because that would be a terrible development.
01:07:02.320 --> 01:07:09.519
And you know, I very much hear what you're saying on Lula, and I feel like you know, it's a continued kind of criticism from the left of him, right?
01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:16.880
Like that, you know, he's still very focused on fossil fuels, you know, on tech, he hasn't been doing nearly enough.
01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:27.360
Um, and like, you know, he's willing to compromise on some of these economic development things uh as a justification for you know the social programs and things like that that the workers' party introduces, right?
01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:31.760
Um, but that still doesn't mean that we want Bolsonaro over over Lula.
01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:33.760
It's still democracy, right?
01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:37.519
Where we want to be able to do like the criticism within a democracy.
01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:45.519
I think people have to be very clear in the idea that what is at stake is democracy and the continuation of it in Brazil.
01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:47.199
Absolutely, absolutely.
01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:53.119
Um, Lais, it's always fantastic to have you on the show to get your insights to learn about what is going on in Brazil.
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:54.800
Thanks so much for taking the time.
01:07:55.119 --> 01:07:56.000
Thank you so much.
01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:57.440
Happy to be here again.
01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:02.159
And I hope to come back with good news once this all ends in the future.
01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:03.760
I certainly hope so.
01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:04.960
Thank you.
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:27.359
And the best way to support me this month is by pre ordering a copy of my new book, Hyperscale The Ambition and Excess of Big Tech's Data Empires.
01:08:27.520 --> 01:08:30.000
Your pre order helps make my book a success.
01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:32.399
I really appreciate it if you could make a pre order.
01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:36.159
And either way, thanks for listening and make sure to come back next week.