#92 | 6 Practical Tips Parents and Allies Need to Support LGBTQ Kids With Courage and Respect

Heather Hester
00:00:06
Welcome back to Just Breathe.

Heather Hester
00:00:08
I am so happy that you are here today and that you have taken some time just to listen in.

Heather Hester
00:00:19
I am really, really excited about today's topic and today's guest.

Heather Hester
00:00:25
And just before we get into it, I just want to take a few moments like I've been doing past few episodes to read another review from a listener and just kind of in my ongoing effort to let you all know how grateful I am for you and grateful for you listening and so grateful that the episodes that I bring you, whether it's the interviews or the solo episodes, the research that I've done, the information that I share, that it in some way has been helpful to you and that means a lot to me.

Heather Hester
00:01:08
That's why I started doing all of this.

Heather Hester
00:01:11
So it is something that is such a great reminder to me to keep going and to keep doing what I'm doing and just so happy that it has made whatever difference it has made in your life that it has.

Heather Hester
00:01:30
And thank you for sharing.

Heather Hester
00:01:32
And as a reminder, if this is your review that I am reading, please either DM me or email me and let me know that it is your review and I will send you a free copy of my ebook, the Language of lgbtqia.

Heather Hester
00:01:50
So today's review comes from upon a branch and they say, inspirational.

Heather Hester
00:02:00
Such a raw and vulnerable podcast supporting the challenges and pitfalls faced in the day to day lives of gender diverse teens.

Heather Hester
00:02:09
Your program serves as a compassionate and contemplative resource of motivation and enlightenment.

Heather Hester
00:02:16
As the parent of a now gender diverse adult, I only wish we had available such a wonderfully supportive and insightful resource during our teenagers years.

Heather Hester
00:02:28
So thank you, thank you for those kind words and thank you for sharing that with me and with everyone who reads these reviews on Apple podcasts.

Heather Hester
00:02:40
And as a reminder, if you do enjoy listening to the podcast, please leave me a review and or just a rating.

Heather Hester
00:02:50
I would also appreciate that.

Heather Hester
00:02:53
So thank you.

Heather Hester
00:02:53
Thank you so much.

Heather Hester
00:02:55
So moving on to today's episode, Today I have just the extraordinary pleasure of interviewing the author of a book that has been so extremely helpful to me.

Heather Hester
00:03:12
It is one, you know that I love books, I love reading and I do it all the time and occasionally, you know, come across a book.

Heather Hester
00:03:20
There's I have so many where I love a chapter, I love, you know, a certain part of it and so many authors that I have so truly enjoyed.

Heather Hester
00:03:28
But I will say that this author's first edition I have read through and through and tabbed and highlighted and have used in talks that I've given and as reference to different things.

Heather Hester
00:03:42
And when I found out that she had written a second edition of this book, I was absolutely thrilled to know that I could have her on the show and interview her and meet her, you know, virtually in person.

Heather Hester
00:03:57
So I am just thrilled, thrilled to let you know that Jeannie Gainsberg, who is the author of the now second edition of the Savvy Ally that has a number of new chapters, new information, new research, new everything, along with the original writing from the original edition.

Heather Hester
00:04:20
I am so excited to have her on the show today and I will just give you a really, really quick bio on her before we jump in.

Heather Hester
00:04:29
So Jeannie is an award winning educational trainer and consultant in the field of LGBTQ inclusion and effective allyship.

Heather Hester
00:04:39
Formerly the education director at the out alliance of Rochester, New York, she is the founder of Savvy Ally Action and the author of the book the Savvy Ally A Guide for Becoming a Skilled LGBTQ advocate.

Heather Hester
00:04:54
In 2019, Jeannie received a citation from the New York State assembly for Distinguished Educational and Human Rights Services for her work and promoting LGBTQ rights and inclusion.

Heather Hester
00:05:08
So, without further ado, I bring you our wonderful conversation.

Heather Hester
00:05:26
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester
00:05:39
My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester
00:05:44
I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester
00:05:53
Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester
00:06:11
Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Heather Hester
00:06:28
Welcome to Just Breathe, everyone.

Heather Hester
00:06:31
I am really, really excited for you to just sit back and enjoy this conversation that I get to have with Jeannie Gainsberg, who is the author of one of my most favorite books.

Heather Hester
00:06:46
And I know I've already raved post or pre interview, but I'm just really excited for you all to learn because there is so, so much we can learn from Jeanne.

Heather Hester
00:06:56
So welcome to the show.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:06:59
Thank you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:00
I appreciate being invited.

Heather Hester
00:07:03
So I would love to just start before we get into your book and your new edition of your book, really talking about what made you start doing this work, kind of where did you start and how did you get to this point of writing the Savvy Ally and second edition of the savvy ally.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:24
Yeah, I got kind of a late start as an ally.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:28
I call myself a late bloomer.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:30
Always felt very strongly about LGBTQ inclusion, way back to dating back to junior high school because I found a note I was passing with my best friend.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:39
So I have evidence that I was pretty chill about LGBTQ then, but I didn't grow up with any out LGBTQ people in my life.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:50
Obviously there were many, many friends who later came out, but I didn't know.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:54
So just a very straight cisgender world.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:57
And.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:07:58
But I grew up in a household where the word gay wasn't a naughty word, for example.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:02
So it was just, you know, it was spoken the way it should be as any other adjective, you know, and so I got that background, but I never did anything.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:13
I was never active.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:13
I didn't even know the word ally in a social justice context.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:17
So I didn't know that there was a role for me to play because I had the stereotype, and maybe many people do, that if you are an ally to the LGBTQ communities, you must have a family member who's part of the community or a close friend.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:32
And I didn't.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:32
And so I wasn't sure I'd be welcome.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:34
And a lot of things just sort of held me back.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:37
And eventually, 20 years ago, I got motivated to become more active and I looked up the word gay in the phone book and found our local agency.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:46
I'm coming to you from Rochester, New York, upstate.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:49
And we had an LGBTQ center at the time called the Gay alliance, which was one of the oldest in the nation.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:56
Not a super inclusive name.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:08:57
We ended up changing it later, but thankfully it was called the Gay alliance at the time because it was easy to find in the phone book.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:03
And I picked up the phone and called and said I'd like to volunteer.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:06
And that started me, launched me literally into a full time career as an ally.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:12
I volunteered for two years.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:14
I knew absolutely nothing when I started.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:16
Like, nothing.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:17
I was the one who had to raise my hand in the first session that I went to, the first training and ask what at the time GLBT stood for, because I had no idea.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:25
So that's where I was starting from.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:27
So I volunteered for two years and then they hired me on a staff and I ended up staying with the agency for 15 years.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:34
And my final five years there, I was the education director.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:37
So I was in charge of all of the educational programs.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:40
And by the time I moved on from that position, I had such a wealth of information in my head about how to be an ally, that I just thought this should get out there.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:49
Like, this is.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:49
I wanted this book, the book that I wrote that you're referring to the savvy ally.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:54
I wanted that book.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:09:55
When I started, I wanted a guidebook to tell me, like, how to not mess up and, like, what.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:00
What things I should say and what I shouldn't say.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:02
And that book didn't exist.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:04
So that was something that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:05
In a way, I kind of felt like it was a gift that I could give back to the LGBTQ communities for just being so welcoming and understanding and forgiving of my ridiculous questions that I had to ask when I got started.

Heather Hester
00:10:22
Oh, my goodness.

Heather Hester
00:10:23
But I think that is such.

Heather Hester
00:10:24
That's, like, one point that you make in the book and one thing that I talk about a lot as well, which is make the mistakes.

Heather Hester
00:10:33
We are encouraged as allies to make the mistakes.

Heather Hester
00:10:37
Right?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:37
Yes.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:38
I always say that being an ally is an ongoing journey of messing up.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:41
And in the second edition of my book, I know we're going to be talking about this, but the first edition came out March 2020, which was.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:48
You can imagine what a great time that was to launch your first book ever.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:55
March 12, 2020.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:10:56
It was, like, practically day one of the pandemic shutdown.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:11:00
So my second edition just came out last month, and I actually dedicated an entire chapter to messing up properly.

Heather Hester
00:11:07
Yes.

Heather Hester
00:11:08
Yes, you did.

Heather Hester
00:11:10
I was so excited.

Heather Hester
00:11:11
I was like, oh, my gosh.

Heather Hester
00:11:12
Because I will tell.

Heather Hester
00:11:13
That's the first thing I did when I.

Heather Hester
00:11:15
When I got this second edition, because.

Heather Hester
00:11:17
So I'm going to go ahead.

Heather Hester
00:11:18
I'm going to show.

Heather Hester
00:11:19
Because I didn't do it on film.

Heather Hester
00:11:20
So this is.

Heather Hester
00:11:21
This is the first edition, everyone.

Heather Hester
00:11:23
And you can tell I love it.

Heather Hester
00:11:24
And I've been.

Heather Hester
00:11:26
And here's the second edition.

Heather Hester
00:11:28
It looks exactly the same, except it's not glossy, it's matte.

Heather Hester
00:11:31
And I equally love this.

Heather Hester
00:11:33
And so I went through.

Heather Hester
00:11:34
And I was like, okay, well, what is different?

Heather Hester
00:11:36
What has she added or, you know, consolidated or put together?

Heather Hester
00:11:40
You know, put together.

Heather Hester
00:11:42
And first of all, I mean, this is, like you said, the guidebook.

Heather Hester
00:11:48
Because I have searched and I read a lot of books, and this one is such a complete.

Heather Hester
00:11:56
Like, I keep going back to it.

Heather Hester
00:11:57
I'll pick up others, and I'll be like, ooh, this chapter is really good.

Heather Hester
00:12:00
And then I come back and I'm like, this really has everything that I need.

Heather Hester
00:12:03
When I'm, you know, if I'm writing a talk that I need to reference something or if I'm like, how do I use this again?

Heather Hester
00:12:09
Or, you know, there are so many different questions that it's.

Heather Hester
00:12:13
This has helped me answer.

Heather Hester
00:12:14
So I'm just wondering.

Heather Hester
00:12:16
I guess we'll kind of just start, like, right with my.

Heather Hester
00:12:19
The beginning question, the obvious question, which is, you had this awesome reference book that you published three years ago.

Heather Hester
00:12:27
Why did you decide to do a second edition so soon after the first edition?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:12:33
Well, first of all, let me just say, wow, and thank you so much for your kind words about my book.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:12:37
That means a ton to me.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:12:39
So, I mean, as I'm sure people are aware, there's been.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:12:43
There's constant changes when it comes to the LGBTQ communities.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:12:46
And I actually make a comment in my book, which I'll share here.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:12:50
So one of my chapters is common questions, the type of questions that you're going to hear over and over and over that allies should be prepared to have a response to.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:12:59
And one of them that I put in the first edition, which I heard all the time, at least here in upstate New York, which is a fairly liberal place, one of the questions was, you know, aren't we in a great place now with LGBTQ inclusion?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:14
Like, what else needs to be done?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:16
And I actually made a note in the second edition.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:19
I'm like, I feel like we're going backwards in time.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:21
Like, instead of being able to sort of eliminate this, you know, this question, that question.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:27
I mean, I'm sorry, the question is eliminated because it's very clear what needs to be done.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:32
I mean, so we've slid back with our rights for LGBTQ people, for, you know, school teachers and what they can and can't say for transgender care, for, you know, drag story hours, like, for crying out loud.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:45
I mean, what.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:46
You know, what we're allowed to actually wear.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:48
It's frightening.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:49
And so to me, that just.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:51
That in itself explains why I needed to write, you know, a second edition three years later.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:57
There's so much.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:13:58
But besides that, one of the things that I do besides writing is I do workshops constantly.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:04
And I love that because it keeps me.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:06
It keeps me very savvy.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:07
I stay connected with what's happening out in the community.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:10
A lot of the work that I do is for corporations and K through 12 school districts.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:17
And so what I found was that doing that work, there were questions that would come up for me that I'm just constantly keeping.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:25
I've got my notes in my computer.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:27
You know, that's a great question.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:29
I got to add that to the third edition, or I.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:31
You know, I think I could Explain this better.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:34
Pronouns as an example.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:35
So in the first edition, I talk about pronouns kind of throughout, you know, when it seems appropriate to talk about pronouns.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:42
And over those three years between the two books being published, I realized we talk so much about respectfully asking for pronouns, but we've.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:52
I can't find anywhere really good tools for how to do that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:14:56
And I realized, like, never once in my life have I walked up to someone and said, what are your pronouns?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:15:00
I actually think it's really intrusive, and there are reasons why people might not want to share their pronouns.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:15:05
So I'm like, why are we not giving people the tools to know how to do this?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:15:10
So another chapter that's completely new in my second edition is a whole chapter on pronouns.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:15:15
How to.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:15:16
How to share them, how to use them, how to gather them, and how to mess them up.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:15:20
And I give tools for, like, different scenarios and how to potentially figure out someone's pronouns without ever making that direct ask of, what are your pronouns?

Heather Hester
00:15:31
Which I think is so great.

Heather Hester
00:15:33
I was so happy to see that, because that is a big question.

Heather Hester
00:15:35
And I think that you're absolutely right that in the past three years, that is something that has not only continued but has gotten greater.

Heather Hester
00:15:44
I think people, like, really questioning, like, not only how do we do it, but why?

Heather Hester
00:15:49
Why?

Heather Hester
00:15:50
Right?

Heather Hester
00:15:51
Like, why do we have to do this?

Heather Hester
00:15:53
Which kind of goes back to your whole.

Heather Hester
00:15:55
We are sliding back.

Heather Hester
00:15:56
So that's one of the places of pushback, right, Is not wanting to respect someone's pronouns.

Heather Hester
00:16:03
And so I love that you've added this chapter.

Heather Hester
00:16:07
And one of the things that you really go into explaining, which is something else that I hear a lot of the singular they.

Heather Hester
00:16:16
People cannot wrap their head around the singular they.

Heather Hester
00:16:22
And in a way that they're like, oh, this is new.

Heather Hester
00:16:24
Well, it's really not.

Heather Hester
00:16:25
Right.

Heather Hester
00:16:26
It has always been part of language.

Heather Hester
00:16:28
And you even give, you know, a great quote that to get to make that point.

Heather Hester
00:16:32
But I'm wondering if you could talk about that a little bit and really give your very clear explanation of the singular they.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:16:42
Thank you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:16:43
Yes.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:16:43
Listen up, any Jane Austen fans.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:16:46
Jane Austen uses singular they in every single one of her novels, often multiple times.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:16:52
I'm a huge Jane Austen fan, and now every time I reread her books, which I tend to do, you know, every couple of years, I'll reread all of them.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:16:58
I'm always looking for the singular they, you know, trying to find them.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:03
So, yes, singular they has been used by Shakespeare, by Chaucer, by Jane Austen.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:08
I love singular they.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:09
There are two different types of gender neutral pronouns.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:12
There's singular they, and then there are what's called neo pronouns, which I find much trickier.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:17
And a neopronoun, for those who aren't familiar with that word, literally means new pronoun.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:22
It's a pronoun that hasn't been accepted yet in English.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:25
So it's not a pronoun that you will see in the dictionary, which is why singular they is not considered a neopronoun because, hurrah, it is now in the dictionary as a singular pronoun.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:37
So I know Oxford Dictionary recently added it, and there's one other, which I can't think of it off the top of my head, but it is now in the dictionary considered grammatically correct to use to refer to a single person who's either maybe non binary or whose gender is unknown.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:17:54
So a sentence like if a student is late for school, they must bring in a note from their parents or guardians is a grammatically correct way to say that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:04
And I think that's a perfect example of how you would use that rather than the he or she.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:09
And then the example, the thing I like to let people know is that most of us probably have been using singular they our whole lives without even realizing it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:17
So if you walk into a coffee shop, for example, and you see that there's a phone left on the table, most of us don't say, oh, someone left his or her phone on the table.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:26
I hope he or she gets it back.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:28
Like, we just don't.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:29
I mean, maybe English teachers speak like that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:31
I don't know.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:31
But, you know, most of us say, someone left their phone, I hope they get it back.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:34
We know it was one person who left that phone.

Heather Hester
00:18:37
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:37
We're using singular they.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:18:39
So we can all do it, folks.

Heather Hester
00:18:42
And I think it's one of those things that we're like, so wound about it.

Heather Hester
00:18:45
Like, you know, people don't want to mess up.

Heather Hester
00:18:47
So there's either, like, there's like the, you know, the two.

Heather Hester
00:18:50
I mean, this is simplifying a great deal, but like, the people who don't want to mess up and then the people who don't care.

Heather Hester
00:18:56
Right.

Heather Hester
00:18:56
And I think in that, like, not wanting to mess up, then you get yourself so wound about it that you overthink instead of being like, well, this has been part of my language forever.

Heather Hester
00:19:08
All I'm doing is being respectful to each person I come in contact with.

Heather Hester
00:19:14
Right, Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:19:16
Yeah.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:19:16
And I have some tips in my book for how to Remember to use people's pronouns correctly and what to do when you mess them up.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:19:24
So, I mean, we can go into that now if you want to, but I just want to let people know that I have those resources in there for tips and tricks on helping to get it right.

Heather Hester
00:19:33
Yes.

Heather Hester
00:19:34
Which is so incredibly helpful.

Heather Hester
00:19:36
And they are very actionable.

Heather Hester
00:19:38
But yes, if you wouldn't mind sharing one or two right now, that would be great.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:19:43
Sure.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:19:43
So one of the things that I have learned about retention, like when you learn a new thing, studies have shown that if you have that reinforcement multiple times within the first few days, you are way more likely to retain something.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:00
We lose information really quickly when we don't have that reinforcement.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:05
So when I learn, oh, this person maybe has changed their pronoun, I need to now remember my friend is using a different pronoun, I will put it in a place where I will see that repeatedly.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:16
And for me, that's my big old.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:18
I still use an old school daily planner that I look at like a bajillion times a day.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:23
And so that's where I'll write it, and I'll write the person's name and pronoun.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:27
And so every time I look down on that page, I get that reinforcement that for anyone, again, anyone who studied memory and retention, that is the way to retain something.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:36
So I just, I literally practice it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:38
I see it over and over and over throughout, you know, the whatever that first week.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:42
That's a great way to retain it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:44
When it comes to singular they specifically, this is a tip that came to me from community members who use singular they.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:50
So I like to give credit where credit is due.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:53
But someone gave me, someone who uses singular.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:55
They gave me the tip.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:56
They said, you know, if you don't use.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:20:57
If you don't have someone in your life who uses singular they who you're close to, you really don't get a good opportunity to practice it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:04
And so it gets very difficult to do it well.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:07
So they recommend that I that I practice on my pet.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:11
And I have a cat named Carlos, and I think he uses he him pronouns.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:15
Who actually knows?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:16
But for a while, I was referring to Carlos using they, for example.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:21
I just fed them.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:22
Where are they?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:22
Aren't they hungry?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:23
I got so incredibly good at using singular they by constantly using it to refer to my cat.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:29
And Carlos did not seem to mind as long as I remembered to feed him on time and occasionally scratch him on the head.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:35
So if you have a pet, that probably wouldn't work so well with a goldfish but if you've got like a dog or cat or rabbit, you know, practicing singular, I really.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:44
I got so good at it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:44
It was incredible.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:21:45
It was a great tip.

Heather Hester
00:21:47
What a great idea.

Heather Hester
00:21:48
I love that.

Heather Hester
00:21:50
I love that.

Heather Hester
00:21:51
I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking.

Heather Hester
00:21:53
So my third child uses all three pronouns and kind of, you know, just depending on where they are.

Heather Hester
00:22:02
And so it's.

Heather Hester
00:22:04
I'm kind of in constantly in that place of, you know, where they are in the fluidity of.

Heather Hester
00:22:12
Right.

Heather Hester
00:22:13
But I.

Heather Hester
00:22:13
For whatever reason, I can do they.

Heather Hester
00:22:19
When I am speaking about them, like in this context, when they're in the room and we're having a conversation with other people, I find the pronoun much more difficult.

Heather Hester
00:22:32
I don't know why.

Heather Hester
00:22:34
So it is such an interesting thing.

Heather Hester
00:22:37
So I love this because this is a great way to practice with, you know, with my dogs.

Heather Hester
00:22:42
I can totally do that.

Heather Hester
00:22:44
And when they are at school and then come, you know, when they come home, I can.

Heather Hester
00:22:49
I can do.

Heather Hester
00:22:50
I can do better.

Heather Hester
00:22:52
Right.

Heather Hester
00:22:53
So, you know, I'm a really great example of.

Heather Hester
00:22:56
You just keep trying.

Heather Hester
00:22:58
Yes.

Heather Hester
00:23:00
You just keep trying, people.

Heather Hester
00:23:01
It's okay.

Heather Hester
00:23:02
It's okay.

Heather Hester
00:23:04
Oh, my goodness.

Heather Hester
00:23:05
Okay.

Heather Hester
00:23:05
That was one of my favorite.

Heather Hester
00:23:06
I was like, oh, I'm so excited.

Heather Hester
00:23:08
Okay.

Heather Hester
00:23:09
Here is another one of my things that I loved that you did in the first book.

Heather Hester
00:23:12
And I'm actually going to show this because it's really hard to describe, but in.

Heather Hester
00:23:16
So you've done this in both the first and the second editions, and it's in the chapter on orientations, identities, and behaviors.

Heather Hester
00:23:23
And what you did for all of the US who are so visual is you put everything in, like this.

Heather Hester
00:23:32
So, like, on a spectrum, like, so every single orientation, behavior, identity.

Heather Hester
00:23:42
This is so incredibly helpful, I cannot even tell you.

Heather Hester
00:23:47
And I'm wondering, you know, where you.

Heather Hester
00:23:50
You know, where you learned this, where you.

Heather Hester
00:23:53
What made you decide to do this?

Heather Hester
00:23:56
And if you could just give a little background on this, because, I mean, this alone is reason to buy this book.

Heather Hester
00:24:02
Yeah.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:03
Thank you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:04
Yeah.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:04
So you're referring to the diagram of sex, gender, and sexuality, I believe.

Heather Hester
00:24:08
Yes, yes.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:09
And then I go into a more advanced diagram at the end of the chapter.

Heather Hester
00:24:13
And you have more in the second edition as well?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:16
I did.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:17
In the second edition, I decided to add in some folks from the LGBTQ communities and their maps.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:23
So they're diagrams, if you will.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:25
So they actually map themselves out, and you can just see the great diversity among people.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:30
But so where that came from, that originally was shown to me years ago.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:33
Back I mentioned, you know, I was working at the Gay alliance and I was in charge of the education program.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:38
And, you know, this stuff was new to me.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:40
So someone literally drew this out on a napkin for me at a coffee shop.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:45
And what was amazing was I was thinking, like, you know, as a straight cisgender person, I'm like, oh, I'm going to be so plain vanilla.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:52
I'm going to be like all over on this one side.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:24:54
But it was really fascinating and eye opening for me to realize that, oh, I actually am not all on one side either.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:01
So gender expression was huge for me because I have spent my whole life up to that point looking at women who, according to our society and culture, are considered very feminine.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:12
You know, so a lot of makeup, long nails, high heels, jewelry, like none of the stuff that I do.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:19
And I was like, I feel as far from that as I do, like a guy.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:22
What is going on with me?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:23
Because I know I'm a woman.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:24
Like, I've never questioned that I'm a woman.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:26
And I didn't have that language.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:27
And when someone showed me that diagram, I was like, of course it's gender expression.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:32
My gender expression tends to be, you know, I'd actually say it's fairly fluid, but definitely not way over in the feminine.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:40
And so that actually gave me language.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:42
You know, as someone who really hasn't struggled much at all with my gender, my sexuality, my identity, I mean, I really fit very easily into the boxes that were assigned for me and expected of me.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:53
It was still very eye opening.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:55
So I found that fascinating.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:25:56
What I don't like about it is it's very simplistic and I do share in my book some of the.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:01
Some of the things I don't like about it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:04
And as I'm mapping myself out, I share that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:07
You know, I'm running into a problem with this diagram and so I share a more advanced diagram later on.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:13
But so I think the reason I start with that one specifically is for me, when that was shown to me, it was a very basic diagram that I could really grasp.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:22
And so I think for people who've never really had to think about this before, and truly, in general, that's most straight CIS people, you know, we, again, we fit so neatly into those.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:32
Those boxes of those expectation boxes that we've never had to ponder our gender or sexuality very much so for those of us who haven't, I think that diagram that I share in the chapter at the beginning is really, really helpful because it's pretty basic.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:47
And then I Do talk about.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:49
And I know that there are people in the LGBTQ communities that are frustrated with that diagram because they just think it's too simplistic, which is why I then go into a more advanced diagram.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:26:59
And truly, if you look this up online, there's a lot of different ways that you can map out your gender and your sexuality.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:05
But I think it's so important because there's so much confusion over, like, can you be gay and trans all at the same time?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:12
And, you know, the difference between orientation and behavior is huge.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:17
I actually think that's at the core of a lot of trans and homophobia and just confusion about, you know, inclusion in schools, for example.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:26
I really think that has to do with people confusing sexual behaviors and sexual orientation.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:31
So.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:32
Yeah, I appreciate that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:33
That.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:27:34
I'm glad to hear that chapter was helpful to you.

Heather Hester
00:27:36
Absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:27:37
Well, I think too kind of building on that.

Heather Hester
00:27:39
The other thing that it really opened up for me, and I think so many, I'm sure, who have read this and will read this, is that we've all grown up really thinking of gender as a binary, like, not even thinking of it, that it could be anything other than.

Heather Hester
00:28:00
Right?

Heather Hester
00:28:00
And so I think part of it for me was like, oh, this is really cool.

Heather Hester
00:28:07
Like, there's a whole spectrum, right?

Heather Hester
00:28:10
There's not a right or wrong, so to speak.

Heather Hester
00:28:15
Right?

Heather Hester
00:28:15
Like, that is.

Heather Hester
00:28:16
I mean, that's kind of the world I came from.

Heather Hester
00:28:19
And so, like, coming into this and being like, this is amazing to me that you can look.

Heather Hester
00:28:27
So I love that you kind of started off in a very simplistic way, because I think if you had gone right into the more complex, that would have just been like, either some, you know, some will shut down completely because it's too complex.

Heather Hester
00:28:38
You kind of need to ease in and learn right as you're going.

Heather Hester
00:28:42
So I think as I was looking at this and, like, really beginning to think about it, and I've had, you know, many conversations since I first, you know, read.

Heather Hester
00:28:50
Read your book and came across this, but just kind of marveling in the fact that this is what allows every person to be so different and, you know, kind of that permission to step into who you are.

Heather Hester
00:29:06
Right?

Heather Hester
00:29:07
And so the more that, you know, people like us who are straight cisgender can look at this and be like, oh, wait a second, like, this is cool, because I'm not all over on one side, right?

Heather Hester
00:29:20
Or one or the other side.

Heather Hester
00:29:21
Like, I'm.

Heather Hester
00:29:22
I have this cool map.

Heather Hester
00:29:23
So I wonder what somebody else's map looks like, right?

Heather Hester
00:29:26
It just kind of.

Heather Hester
00:29:27
I think it just opens up, like, all these amazing pathways of thinking.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:29:32
So.

Heather Hester
00:29:32
Absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:29:33
Thank you.

Heather Hester
00:29:34
That's just really.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:29:35
You're welcome.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:29:36
Yeah.

Heather Hester
00:29:36
Really cool.

Heather Hester
00:29:37
And I like, too, that, you know, that you've.

Heather Hester
00:29:40
So much of what you've done has been very much.

Heather Hester
00:29:44
It's not only the wisdom you have gained over the years and the knowledge that you have gained, but also the knowledge of those from the LGBTQ community that you have worked with and who have added their own thoughts and perspectives on this.

Heather Hester
00:30:02
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:02
So I was fortunate.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:05
So working at the alliance, one of the things that I did was I was in charge of our speakers bureau.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:10
So I had connections to, you know, hundreds of LGBTQ people and their stories.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:17
I was privileged enough to hear just, you know, tons of coming out stories.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:20
And so when I was writing the book as a straight out, you know, cisgender ally.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:25
Which is fine.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:26
I'm not.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:26
I'm not dismissing that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:27
I think allies should be educating allies.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:30
However, I wanted to bring those voices from the community into the book with, you know, real experiences, real people, real examples.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:38
I just think that examples and stories are the way that people really understand concepts.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:30:44
So I was.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:31:38
I was really grateful for how many people contributed to the book by sharing their personal stories and experiences.

Heather Hester
00:31:45
Absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:31:46
Absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:31:47
I mean, that does just kind of add that, like, little extra bit of engagement.

Heather Hester
00:31:53
You added a chapter in here on etiquette, bloopers and outdated terms, which I love that you made this its own chapter because there are so many and sometimes very difficult to explain why either they shouldn't be used or why they are, you know, why you are to do what you are to do, like what is the proper and kind thing to do.

Heather Hester
00:32:22
Let's talk about some of the bloopers to avoid, because I think that this is someplace that people who are very well meaning, perhaps grab a word that is very outdated or no longer used or only used by people within the community.

Heather Hester
00:32:42
Right.

Heather Hester
00:32:43
So can we talk about that a little bit?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:32:46
Absolutely.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:32:47
Bloopers.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:32:48
Let's talk about them.

Heather Hester
00:32:50
Let's do it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:32:54
Should I just share a few?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:32:55
Commonwealth?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:32:55
Yeah.

Heather Hester
00:32:56
Could you just share a few?

Heather Hester
00:32:57
That would be great.

Heather Hester
00:32:58
Because otherwise I could go through here and instead of me reading your book to you.

Heather Hester
00:33:05
Yeah.

Heather Hester
00:33:05
Why don't we just.

Heather Hester
00:33:08
You grab the ones that you.

Heather Hester
00:33:10
That you find are most common, that you kind of come across the most, and that would be a good way.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:14
To do it, I think so.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:17
Very common would be the butchering of the word transgender, in that people will use it as a noun.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:25
So Transgender is an adjective, meaning there should always be a noun after it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:29
For example, transgender woman, and the shortened version, trans as well, trans man, transgender communities.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:37
It should never be used as a noun.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:39
For example, the transgender or the transgenders or transgendered with an ed.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:47
People get really creative with the word transgender.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:49
And the best way to remember it is about it is just that it's an adjective and it should always have a noun after it.

Heather Hester
00:33:56
There you go.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:33:57
So that one I hear all the time, or he is transgendering.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:02
People use make up this word, transgendering.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:05
I believe they mean transitioning.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:07
But it's interesting.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:08
That word just gets, like, butchered and used in all sorts of ways.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:12
So I just say, like, don't get all fancy with it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:14
It's just an adjective.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:15
Make sure you've got a noun after it and you're good to go.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:18
A few other things I hear constantly are people are still saying preferred pronouns.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:24
And I see this on forms and what's.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:27
What's.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:28
Again, this is just an example of something that a lot of people used to say that we have now moved past.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:34
So it's not surprising that people are still saying preferred pronouns, because even I was saying preferred pronouns when we first started gathering pronouns respectfully from folks.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:45
But if you think about it, the word prefer means a fondness for something.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:51
You know, I'm not just fond of my pronouns, she, her, they're part of who I am, right?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:55
So if you refer to me as he, him, I'm not going to be happy, right?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:34:59
Preference just.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:00
It kind of implies like a choice.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:02
It's like, you know, oh, I prefer pepperoni pizza, but mushroom will do.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:06
When we're talking about pronouns, they're like, it's like someone's name.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:10
You don't.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:10
It's not just something you prefer.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:12
So you get my point.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:14
So we should hack out that word prefer when we talk about people's pronouns and names.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:19
So if you're using someone's name that they're asking you to use, even if it's not their legal name, it's better to just say their name, for example, just acknowledge it as their name.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:31
And use legal name as the different name or chosen name is even better than preferred name.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:39
So that word prefer, again, it just implies a choice or something that the person is just fond of.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:44
So that's another one I hear constantly.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:47
And then referring to people by going back to using old names and pronouns when referring to the past is a.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:54
Is a common one.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:55
People think, you know.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:56
So I'll use an example.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:35:57
I'll use a public figure because I believe he's using Elliot Page.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:01
Is he using he pronouns or they do?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:03
You know, I think it's he.

Heather Hester
00:36:04
I think it's he.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:05
I think it's he.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:06
I'm gonna go with he.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:06
So Elliot, the actor Elliot Page, a lot of people think that when they talk about him in the movie Juno, for example, they should switch back and use his old name and the old pronoun, because at the time when he filmed that, he was using a different name and a different pronoun, when, in fact, the respectful thing to do is to always use the current name and pronoun, even when referring to the past.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:29
And what I love is that when you're watching Juno on, I think I was on Amazon prime watching it recently, they've actually gone back and edited the little bits that talk about the movie to use his new name and pronoun, which I was like, wow, amazing.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:46
So cool, right?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:48
So they can't change it in, like, that actual the credits of the film, you know, because that's, like, embedded in the film.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:54
But every.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:36:55
Everything, all those little trivia things that they throw out there, if you've seen those, they all are using Elliot's current name and pronoun, which is so great.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:37:02
And that's the way we should also talk about people.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:37:04
Not only is it the most respectful thing to do, but it can also be a safety issue for people.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:37:09
If you start, you know, oh, back when you were in elementary school, you know, did you play any on any girls sports team or whatever you're going to ask?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:37:17
You're basically outing that person to everybody in hearing distance.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:37:21
So those are just a few of the common bloopers that I.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:37:25
Most common bloopers I think that I run into.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:37:28
But as you mentioned, there's a whole list of them.

Heather Hester
00:37:31
Yes, there are, and they're wonderful.

Heather Hester
00:37:34
I was thinking, too, another one, and I think this is an older one, but it's one that I just came across recently and I was a little surprised by is the word transsexual.

Heather Hester
00:37:45
And I had somebody reach out to me asking actually to be a guest on the show as the mother of a transsexual child.

Heather Hester
00:37:56
And I thought, well, this is an interesting use of this word because you are the mother of this child.

Heather Hester
00:38:03
And I wanted to be like, how.

Heather Hester
00:38:07
What makes you use that word?

Heather Hester
00:38:08
You know, I was just so curious because it is not a word that we use anymore.

Heather Hester
00:38:15
And so I would love if you could kind of give your thoughts on why we no longer use that word why it is no longer appropriate in context.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:27
Sure.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:28
I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons why the word transsexual has sort of faded out.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:32
Very similar to the word homosexual, which also is.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:36
I talk about that.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:37
It's so much more respectful to use the word gay.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:39
Both of those words have sexual in them.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:42
So that's one thing right off the bat that a lot of people don't like, because it's just like focusing on sex, which this is not about.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:50
Neither of these things are about sex.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:51
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:52
One's about orientation, one's about gender.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:54
So, you know, just false advertising right there.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:38:58
But I think both of them also have been used very negatively in mental health communities.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:04
So, like in the dsm, whatever number we're on now, or I guess we're talking about the past.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:10
So in the past, homosexuality, up until 73, I think in the US homosexuality was considered a mental illness.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:17
And also being transsexual or transsexualism, not quite sure what word, but these words are dated.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:24
They have negative connotations because of this sort of mental illness that was attached to them at the time.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:31
So people have moved away from them.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:32
But one of the things I want to talk about is that you'll notice in my book, when I talk about bloopers, I kind of give a little word of caution, and I say these are great places to start.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:43
They may not be bloopers for everyone.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:46
And the reason I say that is that I actually have two friends who, they're older folks, but they use the word transsexual.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:55
That is their identity word.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:39:56
And so the respectful thing to do, and this you get into with my respectful communication tips, is to always mirror the terms that people use for themselves.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:05
So even though the word transsexual may be, like, really cringey for us, if that is someone's identity word, that is the word we use.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:13
It's very similar, I think, to the word queer, which a lot of older adults absolutely hate.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:18
I'm like, you know what?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:19
If that's someone's word, you need to mirror that term.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:22
We won't use it for you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:24
That's hurtful.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:24
You hate it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:25
But that's their word.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:27
That's their empowerment word.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:28
So I do know people who use the word transsexual.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:31
And when I'm referring to them or having conversations with them, I will respectfully use that term.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:37
And I think that's important to keep in mind that we're always mirroring terms, but in general, a respectful place to start would Be to use the word transgender or trans, which is much more accepted these days.

Heather Hester
00:40:48
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:48
So interesting.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:49
Back to your question.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:50
Back to your parent, which is very interesting because they're the parent of a younger person.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:56
I would probably just candidly have that conversation with them.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:40:59
I would just say so.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:00
I'm so interested and fascinated that you're using this word, you know, transsexual.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:05
It was my understanding that that's kind of a dated term.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:07
Is this a term that you're.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:09
I want to be as respectful as possible.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:11
Is this a term that your child is using, you know, just to have a conversation in that way?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:15
Again, indicating that your goal is to be as respectful as possible.

Heather Hester
00:41:19
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:20
So.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:21
And having a conversation that way, I think, would be important.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:23
So interesting.

Heather Hester
00:41:24
Absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:41:25
I know.

Heather Hester
00:41:25
I thought it was so interesting, and I was just kind of taken by it, and I thought, well, you know, I'm just curious, you know, I would.

Heather Hester
00:41:32
I do want to know.

Heather Hester
00:41:34
So it was very timely that I.

Heather Hester
00:41:36
That I just recently received that email, so that.

Heather Hester
00:41:39
Well, this is good.

Heather Hester
00:41:40
We can talk about this today.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:42
Yep.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:43
Constantly changing.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:45
Oh, can I just share something that I just learned?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:47
And again, this is, like, constant movement.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:49
So one of the things that I share in my book is that we should say sexual orientation, not sexual preference, which I think most people are on board for the same reason I talked about preferences.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:41:59
Like, you know the word for mushroom?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:01
Yeah, sure.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:03
And I just recently heard that some younger folks at high school age were sharing with me that they're actually trying to bring back preference.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:13
Like, it's actually, again, things are just.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:15
It's like things are constantly changing, and they're basically like, it's okay to be fluid.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:20
It's okay for it to be a preference.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:23
It's not necessarily this set in stone orientation.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:27
You're born that way.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:29
That's what you are.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:29
Which, of course, we know.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:31
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:32
But the interesting that the language is now starting to go back to something that used to be considered offensive, and now there are communities of people who are now embracing that because they want people to understand that gender and sexuality is fluid, and it's fine if that's a preference.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:42:49
So interesting.

Heather Hester
00:42:50
That is so interesting.

Heather Hester
00:42:52
And at the same time, I can totally see that with this age of kids for sure, and probably going forward, because that is more and more.

Heather Hester
00:43:04
I've seen that just in, you know, talking with my kids and, you know, and learning about their friends and, you know, how this.

Heather Hester
00:43:13
And it's just.

Heather Hester
00:43:15
You kind of go with it and you're like, okay, this note to Self.

Heather Hester
00:43:19
I was like, note to self, this is where we are right now.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:43:24
And it's the Savvy Ally 3rd Edition.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:43:28
I'm making notes.

Heather Hester
00:43:29
You are making notes.

Heather Hester
00:43:31
I mean, third edition is going to be coming next year.

Heather Hester
00:43:35
Everything is moving so quickly and things do shift so quickly.

Heather Hester
00:43:40
But I think that, you know, this is such a great kind of like a tour guide or, you know, like you're something that you just have with you.

Heather Hester
00:43:51
There's so much in here that is timeless and that is.

Heather Hester
00:43:55
Does help with.

Heather Hester
00:43:56
Okay, I want to be a good ally.

Heather Hester
00:43:59
How do I be a good ally?

Heather Hester
00:44:01
Right.

Heather Hester
00:44:01
Like, what are the basic tenets?

Heather Hester
00:44:03
And of course, things that.

Heather Hester
00:44:04
There's going to be lots of things that change, but there are the basic tenants that will always be the same.

Heather Hester
00:44:09
Right?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:44:10
Yes.

Heather Hester
00:44:10
So.

Heather Hester
00:44:10
And you.

Heather Hester
00:44:11
And you do cover that so very well.

Heather Hester
00:44:13
One of the things that too.

Heather Hester
00:44:15
This will kind of be my, my.

Heather Hester
00:44:17
One of my final hurrahs here.

Heather Hester
00:44:18
But I just have to giggle.

Heather Hester
00:44:20
And I love this so much.

Heather Hester
00:44:22
The chapter on straight pride parades and special.

Heather Hester
00:44:26
I mean, seriously, I was like, thank you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:44:31
Did you see my special snowflake image?

Heather Hester
00:44:33
Yes.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:44:35
I added illustrations to third edition.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:44:39
I had fun with that.

Heather Hester
00:44:40
I'm sure you did.

Heather Hester
00:44:42
Yes.

Heather Hester
00:44:42
I love that.

Heather Hester
00:44:43
I was like, oh, my gosh.

Heather Hester
00:44:44
Okay.

Heather Hester
00:44:44
And I have to tell you, I've used this quote so many times that instead of wondering why there isn't a straight pride, be grateful you never needed one.

Heather Hester
00:44:52
So I never knew who said that.

Heather Hester
00:44:54
I've always said unknown.

Heather Hester
00:44:56
And so I was like, there is an Anthony Brown.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:44:59
Anthony Vanny Brown.

Heather Hester
00:45:00
Yes.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:01
I mean, Anthony Van Brown.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:04
I just have to say, just a little side note, what a lovely person.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:08
So my publisher connected with him to get permission to use that epigraph and he said, yes, of course.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:17
And can you send me an edition of this book?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:19
And we've been in touch.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:20
I was just emailing him this morning.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:22
He is such a love.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:24
I actually just read.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:25
Read his book, A Life of Unlearning, which is fabulous.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:29
Just talking about his experience going through as a gay preacher and you know, his.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:36
His whole memoir.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:37
Basically so good.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:38
But, oh, I'm just.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:39
It was just like a lovely little thing that occurred because of using that quote.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:45:44
I now just feel like I've got this friend in Australia.

Heather Hester
00:45:49
Oh, my gosh, I am so thrilled.

Heather Hester
00:45:52
Okay.

Heather Hester
00:45:52
A Life of women.

Heather Hester
00:45:53
Have to check this out.

Heather Hester
00:45:55
I mean, I literally was like, this is one of my favorites.

Heather Hester
00:45:58
And I actually used this quote when I was having a discussion with a family member a number of years ago about why there are not straight pride parades.

Heather Hester
00:46:10
So I kind of had to laugh.

Heather Hester
00:46:11
I was like, well, here, you know, obviously it's in the quote, but I was like, I actually used this quote in this conversation.

Heather Hester
00:46:17
Oh, my gosh.

Heather Hester
00:46:20
Just a weird moment for me.

Heather Hester
00:46:22
But let's.

Heather Hester
00:46:23
Let's talk about that because I think this is something that, you know, does come up all the time.

Heather Hester
00:46:27
And people who, you know, want to be good allies often find themselves in difficult conversations, whether it's with family members or friends.

Heather Hester
00:46:37
And.

Heather Hester
00:46:38
And these are some of the common questions that come up.

Heather Hester
00:46:40
Right.

Heather Hester
00:46:42
So what are very simple answers that can be given?

Heather Hester
00:46:47
Because I think sometimes we also feel like we need to give this long, drawn out, with facts and statistics kind of answer, which of course you totally can.

Heather Hester
00:46:56
But what are some simple ways that you can answer these questions?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:01
So I think if you want to keep it really brief, I love examples.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:07
I just think that examples are the key to understanding concepts.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:10
So in this case, if I just wanted to be brief, I would probably talk about the breast cancer ribbon supporting people who've had breast cancer and talking about how if you haven't had breast cancer, it doesn't mean your life has been all rosy, you know, necessarily.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:27
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:27
But as far as breast cancer is concerned, you're good to go.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:31
You don't need a ribbon to support your never having had breast cancer journey.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:36
And in the same way, like, no one's saying that if you're straight and cisgender, your life has been all roses and.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:43
And it just.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:44
When it comes to your sexual orientation and your gender, you know, you're good according to our society, you're good to go.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:52
You don't really need a pride parade because you see yourself represented people.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:47:57
You see people like you represented constantly as accomplished beings.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:02
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:03
You just think about who you learned about in schools.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:05
You know, I mean, I think it was almost all straight cisgender people.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:09
I can't.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:09
Back in the day, probably getting a little better now.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:11
I know it's getting a little better in some places, but the idea of that we need a special parade to celebrate straight cisgender people were celebrated all the time.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:22
So again, like that breast cancer, never having had breast cancer ribbon.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:48:26
There's no need for that.

Heather Hester
00:48:29
Right?

Heather Hester
00:48:31
That is a great example.

Heather Hester
00:48:32
Thank you.

Heather Hester
00:48:33
I mean, kind of spot on because I think that can be kind of like a.

Heather Hester
00:48:37
Well, how do I.

Heather Hester
00:48:38
How do I say this?

Heather Hester
00:48:38
And how do I, you know, I want to explain this in the best way and.

Heather Hester
00:48:42
Yeah, right.

Heather Hester
00:48:44
So for all of.

Heather Hester
00:48:45
All of our parents listening and People listening who are just really.

Heather Hester
00:48:52
Whether they're beginning on this journey of being an ally and really wanting to step into this place because it, you know, has become really important to have as many allies on board across the country right now.

Heather Hester
00:49:11
What are some of your recommendations for things that people can do to.

Heather Hester
00:49:17
Whether it's get involved or just support locally, whether it's at home or whatever.

Heather Hester
00:49:28
What would be your recommendation?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:31
Well, let's all vote, folks.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:35
Let me start there.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:37
Yeah, yeah, truly, you know, if you're the kind of person who's like, oh, I never vote.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:42
It's just one vote.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:43
It doesn't matter.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:44
Like, please vote.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:45
Just gotta get that out there.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:47
It's so.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:47
It's so important.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:48
I feel like people don't have a right to complain about the state of the world if they don't vote.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:52
You're just.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:52
You don't get to.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:53
You don't get to complain.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:55
So if it's just for that reason you want to complain, go vote.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:49:59
You have the right to complain.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:01
I just think, you know, straight cisgender allies can help out in a lot of different ways.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:06
And, I mean, obviously, there's big things we can get involved in, like, if you've got a pride in your area or nearby, like, what a lovely gift that we can give to our LGBTQ friends on their day or their week of celebration to volunteer and help make it as safe, you know, and fun as possible.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:23
And it's a great way to meet people, too.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:25
So getting, you know, volunteering for pride, volunteering.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:29
If got a local LGBTQ center, if you are involved in the schools, if they have a gsa, which, you know, used to stand for Gay Straight Alliance, I think now it tends to stand for Gender Sexuality Alliance.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:42
But those are, you know, clubs that support LGBTQ students and allies.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:47
Great ways to get involved if you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:49
If you see something don't, like, step up to the plate, take some of the heavy lifting off the LGBTQ folks.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:50:55
Like, a really simple thing that I like to give as an example is when we see a form, you go to the doctor office, the doctor's office, you get handed the same form as everybody else.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:07
I'm still seeing that dreaded M or F box.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:11
You know, I mean, again, I could talk for an hour on why that's problematic, but if you are, you know, a transgender woman, if you are intersex, if you are non binary, that doesn't fit for you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:26
It's not even clear what's being asked with an M or F box.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:29
So a really, really great Ally action that's very simple and is a very little risk to you as a straight cisgender person, is to just make a little note on that form, hey, this could be a little more inclusive.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:43
You know, what are you actually asking here?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:45
Maybe if you even want to spend the time ahead of time looking for a quick website where they could go.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:50
I mean, it's something I do.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:52
I could do consulting on forms.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:51:53
But to me, if you think about a doctor's office getting like, 10 times a day, people writing a little note about the MRF box that's going to get changed in no time, like, you can guarantee it.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:06
It's just such a simple little thing that we can do.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:08
And if you think about the poor, the poor patient who's coming in, who's part of the LGBTQ communities, or maybe like the lesbian couple that has a young child and they're registering at the local school district, they're in a really vulnerable position if they don't see themselves on the forms.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:25
Like, maybe they've got the parent, you know, mother, father, which a lot of school districts still have this.

Heather Hester
00:52:30
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:31
First of all, like, they're not even sure if they're going to be safe in this school district.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:37
So to add that extra pressure of asking them to make a request to change the form and make it more inclusive, like, let's not put them in that position.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:46
They've got enough to worry about if they're not even seeing themselves represented on those forums.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:50
But as a straight couple, we can be like, hey, folks, not everyone is a family with a mom and dad.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:52:56
Let's, you know, these are just such simple ways that we can make a difference.

Heather Hester
00:53:01
Right.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:01
So, again, I'm very.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:02
I'm very into the practical.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:04
What you can do.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:05
That's just something that's very simple.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:07
And again, I'm like, I kind of feel like.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:09
Is this a trick question?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:10
Like, people can read my book.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:53:12
I've just kind of listed a lot of things that you can do.

Heather Hester
00:53:14
But no, there's a lot more in there.

Heather Hester
00:53:19
Absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:53:19
I just think that is such a.

Heather Hester
00:53:21
This is a good.

Heather Hester
00:53:22
This is a fantastic teaser for the entire book because this has been so awesome.

Heather Hester
00:53:30
The book is, like, a thousand times.

Heather Hester
00:53:32
So you just really.

Heather Hester
00:53:35
I am so grateful for all the work that you've done and continue to do.

Heather Hester
00:53:40
And, you know, things like that.

Heather Hester
00:53:43
Well, thank you.

Heather Hester
00:53:44
But things like, things that you just mentioned are things that are so simple that I think that, honestly, we don't think about.

Heather Hester
00:53:52
Right.

Heather Hester
00:53:53
And realize, oh, my gosh, that is so easy for me to do as a straight cisgender person to just.

Heather Hester
00:54:01
That's a great way to be an ally.

Heather Hester
00:54:02
Because we can't vote right now.

Heather Hester
00:54:05
You know, we can get encourage everybody, continue encouraging everybody for the next, you know, 16 months, but there's other things we can do in the meantime.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:54:16
Yep.

Heather Hester
00:54:16
So these are really, really lovely things.

Heather Hester
00:54:20
I'm so grateful that you've been here today.

Heather Hester
00:54:24
And before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add?

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:54:29
I just want to thank you for inviting me.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:54:30
This has been a really fun conversation.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:54:32
Thoroughly enjoyed it, and thank you for all the lovely things you said about my book.

Heather Hester
00:54:37
I mean them from the bottom of my heart.

Heather Hester
00:54:39
So thank you.

Jeannie Gainsberg
00:54:41
Thanks.

Heather Hester
00:54:44
Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester
00:54:47
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

Heather Hester
00:54:51
For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.

Heather Hester
00:55:00
To stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester
00:55:07
Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester
00:55:12
And remember to just breathe.

Heather Hester
00:55:16
Until next time, Sa.