Abortion

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett and I am here with the wayfaring Ian Wilkes.
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Ian, how are you, sir?
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I
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am doing great, Jim.
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How are you?
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I'm doing all right.
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You're still in your travels on the other side of the world?
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I'm having a fantastic time here in England, catching up with old friends, college friends, high school friends, old church friends, and I've even been to church last Sunday.
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That was interesting.
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So I'm having a great time.
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And tomorrow I go to Scotland.
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I go to Edinburgh.
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Oh, nice.
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Yeah.
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We were hoping you would go track down the mission president and take a look at the mission home before it's gone.
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I would like to do that.
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So, yeah, I'll be at the mission home in the next couple of days, so I'll take some photographs.
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Very, very nice.
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Well, I've asked to talk about a topic that I think is a little heavier than a lot of the topics we talk about, but it's very timely given what's happening here today.
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both in the presidential election, but also here in the state of Utah.
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And the topic is the subject of abortion, which is an explosive topic no matter where you discuss it.
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But in the church particularly, there are so many misunderstandings about abortion within the church and what the church's position is on abortion.
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that I wanted to dive into it.
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And the catalyst for this discussion was a decision by the Utah Supreme Court to continue to put on hold one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country.
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So when Roe versus Wade was overturned, Utah had what they called a trigger law.
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There was a law on the books that was triggered to go into effect the moment Roe was overturned.
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And it's a law that bans abortion in pretty much all cases.
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There are no exceptions for rape or incest.
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The only exceptions are for the life of the mother or if there is a fatal fetal abnormality.
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That is, if the fetus has some kind of something that is fatal, that's not going to be able to survive past birth.
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Those are the only two exceptions to allow any abortions after six weeks.
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And six weeks is such a narrow window.
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Most women don't even know they're pregnant at six weeks.
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By the time you get past six weeks, they're still, by the time they would want to have an abortion, even earliest, they wouldn't necessarily know that they're pregnant in time to meet with the trigger band.
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So the Utah Supreme Court, which is kind of feeling its oats at the moment, they also overturned the state legislature's rewriting of congressional boundaries because Utah had an initiative that wanted to create an independent redistricting commission.
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And the legislature took all these citizens initiative and just gutted them and says, well, thank you for the suggestion, but we're just going to do it our way.
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And the Utah Supreme Court said, no, you can't do that.
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So the conservatives in Utah are up in arms for a number of reasons.
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And the governor of Utah issued this very solemn statement that this was terrible, that the Utah Supreme Court had done this.
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But really, the decision by the Utah Supreme Court was fairly narrow.
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It just said that the Planned Parenthood Association of Utah had legal standing.
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to bring a challenge to the trigger law.
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And the law has been on hold while the legal challenge is pending.
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And Utah said, no, no, let the law go into effect.
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And Planned Parenthood doesn't have any standing to attack this law.
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And the Utah Supreme Court said, no, they don't.
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And no, we won't put it into effect.
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And so off we go.
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And so the law, at least for now, is that abortion remains legal up to 18 weeks.
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after pregnancy, which is a broad enough window that this isn't nearly as restrictive as some of the other laws that you find in the United States.
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But the reason why I think this is so important a subject to discuss, particularly in light of the church, is that this is the issue that drives most American members of the church into the arms of the Republican Party.
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That when you start talking to them about, okay, the Republicans are lost, the Republicans have become this cult of personality following after Donald Trump, the Republicans have abandoned almost all of the principles of Reagan that were important to me and that were important to my father when he was serving as a Republican senator.
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The Republicans no longer believe in free markets and free trade.
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The Republicans are now pretty much on Russia's side when Ronald Reagan called them an evil empire.
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You know, just over and over again, you can walk through all of the things that the Republicans have changed their minds on and that they are no longer conservative on.
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And you can say all this to members of the church who will finally come back and say, well, the Republicans are the pro-life party.
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Republicans are against abortion, so I have to be a Republican in order to be consistent with the teachings of the church.
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Now, what's interesting about that, however, are several things.
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One, the church's position on abortion is far more liberal than most Republican Mormons realize.
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Far more liberal.
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The church, yes, absolutely rhetorically is very conservative on abortion.
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And when you hear abortion talked about in general conference, as we did last year from Elder Neal L.
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Anderson, it sounds very, very conservative and very, very Republican because they just rail on the evils of abortion.
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And they don't talk about what the actual church policy is, which is, that abortion may be justified in instances of rape or incest.
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The church does not require a woman to carry her rapist's baby to term.
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And also severe fetal defects.
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So not just that the fetus won't survive birth, but the fetus may be severely deformed.
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They'll say that it's appropriate or it's allowable within church law doctrine or church policy to have an abortion in those circumstances.
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And then, most important, to protect either the life or the health of the mother.
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And that last loophole, health of the mother, is exceptionally broad.
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So they're not just talking about an abortion that will just save the mother's life.
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It's an abortion that will preserve the mother's health and And that includes mental health.
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A woman doesn't feel like she can handle having another baby.
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She can say, well, I did this for my mental health.
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And the church, according to current policy, will make allowances for that.
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So, you know, I don't know.
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I have never been in a and maybe you have, but I've never been in a disciplinary council where abortion has come up.
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And so I've never firsthand been involved in that.
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But the reality is the rhetoric of the church does not match the leniency of the actual policy.
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And this law in Utah goes beyond the church's policy.
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It does not have a rape or an incest exception.
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And the kinds of trigger laws that have gone off throughout the United States are creating all kinds of problems for women's health.
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And the most visible one was in Texas just a few months ago, where a woman was told that if she didn't have an abortion, that the baby wasn't likely to live and that she would likely be sterile.
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Abortion.
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And she ended up having to leave the state of Texas because the Texas Supreme Court wouldn't allow her as an exception to Texas's very restrictive abortion law.
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So you're seeing all of these kinds of things playing out on a national scale.
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And Utah is trying to participate in that in a way that goes afoul of the church's policy.
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One of the things people don't realize is that when you go to general conference meetings, You go to it live at the conference center, and you're walking around outside the conference center.
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You see all of these street protesters, and everybody has an opinion about it, and everybody thinks, oh, they're really so annoying.
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And they think, okay, these are just really hardcore evangelical Christians that hate Mormon doctrine.
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But what they are are hardcore evangelical Christians who hate the church's position on abortion.
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The vast majority of them are anti-abortion activist protesters who insist that the church's position is far too lenient in allowing too much abortion.
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And we never talk about that.
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We never discuss that.
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But that's the reality.
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I've taken it upon myself to sort of personally talk to as many of these protesters as I can.
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I think it's kind of fun to talk to them.
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I get there earlier than everybody else, and I get there when they're setting up.
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And I've had some conversations with them while they're setting up, while I've been going in to get ready for the choir.
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And they're much nicer when there isn't a crowd that they have to play to.
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But that's their big issue.
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Their big issue is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is just too liberal on the subject of abortion.
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And politically, having been a Republican for most of my life, and having been a pro-life Republican for most of my life, I can sort of understand the appeal of conservatives who say, okay, this is an issue where we can't compromise.
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This is an issue where this is a deal breaker.
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I have to vote for a candidate that's gonna be pro-life.
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But one of the things that I've discovered having stepped away from the republican party and just sort of looking at this issue with fresh eyes because when you're in the trenches of partisan politics it's very very hard to even consider the possibility that your party could be wrong on anything and so you don't really look at any of these issues with any kind of degree of critical thought you just accept lock stock and barrel my party right or wrong and the devil take the hindmost anyway stepping away from party and looking at abortion, what I've discovered is that, and what I ask people now when they tell me that they're against abortion, I say, okay, you're against abortion.
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So do you want to prevent abortion?
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Or do you want to make abortion illegal?
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Because they are two very different things.
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And in fact, in many cases, Making abortion illegal does not prevent abortion and can have the unintended consequence of increasing abortion.
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And the data on that is very convincing.
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I'm referring essentially to what's come to be known as the Mexico City policy or the global gag rule.
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It's a policy that is instituted by every Republican president since Reagan.
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and is reversed by every Democratic president since Clinton.
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When Republicans get an office, they put this policy into place.
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The Democrats get an office, they reverse it.
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What is it?
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Well, it's a policy that blocked United States federal funding for non-governmental organizations that provide abortion counseling or referrals or do anything, even mention that abortion is an option.
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So these are groups that receive federal funding and they deal with people in developing nations.
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And the gag rule is that they're not even allowed to mention abortion as an option.
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So if somebody goes to one of these organizations and they're in need and they need help, these organizations can't provide them abortions and these organizations can't even mention abortion as a possibility.
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Well, what happens then is that these groups don't get federal funding and they don't have resources, not just for abortion, but also they don't have resources for contraception.
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They don't have resources for education.
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And when people get unwanted pregnancies, they end up getting more unwanted pregnancies when they don't have easy access to education and contraception.
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And essentially, What happens, whenever this policy has been in place, there has been a long-running study to determine what the effect is.
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And the effect is that abortion rates rise by a staggering 40% every time this rule is in place, in every area where it is in place.
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So all of these pro-life Republicans who are patting themselves on the back because they've made abortion illegal and they've put this gag rule...
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on international organizations that provide help, they're increasing abortion.
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There is more abortion as a result of what they have done.
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Now, in the United States, abortion rates have fallen precipitously since Roe versus Wade to the point where the abortion rate is lower now than it was in 1972 when Roe versus Wade was enacted.
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abortion has plummeted through the decades.
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It's even reached a point where there are fewer abortions in the United States numerically, not just relative to the population, but there are fewer abortions numerically now than there were in 1972, despite the fact that there are so many more people in the United States.
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And what this has taught me is that The way to prevent abortion is not to make abortion illegal.
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It's to make abortion unnecessary.
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Nobody is championing abortion if abortion isn't necessary.
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I can't imagine anybody being sad to see abortion go away if nobody needs one.
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You know, if there is no rape, if there is no incest, if there is no threat to the health or the life of the mother, and nobody gets an abortion, I don't think anybody is going to be upset.
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So it's education and contraception that make abortion unnecessary, and it's Republicans and conservatives and Latter-day Saints who get involved in the political process who decide that the most important thing is making abortion illegal.
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And they don't pay any attention to the unintended consequences.
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And they're out of step with the policy of the church because the church is saying, okay, well, I mean, the church takes a very strong rhetorical stance against abortion, but allows for these exceptions.
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If abortion is not safe and legal, then the people who need to exercise these exceptions in church policy won't be able to do it.
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In the state of Utah, if this trigger law goes into effect, somebody who wants to follow the church's policy in a terrible circumstance of rape won't be able to.
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The law of the land is far more restrictive than the law of God.
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the law of the church.
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So this is, I think, something that we just, I think part of this is what's driving the brethren's comments about politics of late.
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The brethren have made two very significant statements in recent months about American politics.
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One being, you shouldn't just vote for a straight party ticket.
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It used to be that you could go into a ballot booth in Utah and press a button.
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And you didn't even have to look at the candidates.
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You could just vote straight party.
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I'm going to vote for Republicans.
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So I press this one button and all the Republicans are selected.
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And thankfully, the legislature has done away with that option.
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But the church has said voting just straight party and not looking at the candidates as individuals.
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They even said that's Satan's plan, which I thought was interesting.
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And President Oaks has said explicitly in another statement that parties do not fully reflect gospel values on either side, and it is never appropriate to say that one person can't vote for somebody just because of their party.
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And I took that to heart to say, okay, he's giving you license not to vote for Donald Trump, guys.
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You don't have to vote for Trump just because he's a Republican.
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But people in the Republican parties don't necessarily see it that way.
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And if you go online, you still see just this huge bias towards the conservative party.
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And it's just very frustrating.
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So anyway...
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That's the opening rant on this.
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I don't know how much of that you were aware of or what this does to you, but we've talked a little bit offline about abortion and your position on abortion.
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Has it changed or evolved since you've left the church?
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Or was that happening while you were in the church?
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Or what is
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your position?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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When you and I are planning these podcasts, The topics are easy.
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We have an endless list of topics, doctrine, policy, history.
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People come on, share their stories and their experiences, et cetera.
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I find it very easy to come up with many, many topics generating the ideas and easy to talk about them.
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We don't know everything about the topic.
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There's some topics we know more than others.
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But the one that I've...
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not been so forthcoming to talk about because of not fully understanding it completely and thinking I understand it and then I don't.
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Partly a lack of education on my part.
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And it's the topic that we're discussing now, which is your idea to talk about, which I think is incredibly brave on your part, Jim.
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And that's the subject of abortion.
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I mean, here we are, two guys talking about abortion.
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There are people out there that I'm sure think that men shouldn't have an opinion on abortion.
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Others will disagree.
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You know, who's supposed to have an opinion?
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Who can or can't have an opinion on this?
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Does society have an opinion or should have an opinion or a position on this?
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And who's got the right to speak up or not?
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And it's...
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a very emotive topic and the debate continues and laws have been changed and have changed across the US and the world looks to the US.
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Other countries are more established in terms of the abortion rights.
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There's so many layers to this and it's such a very emotive topic.
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You know, we have the Roe versus Wade case, of course, I think it was 1973 and that was overturned.
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There's other factors that come into this, different layers like historical attitudes to abortion.
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They've changed reasons for having an abortion.
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That is another important part of the conversation.
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A father's rights.
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Does the father have a right to have an opinion or a position or a influence on abortion?
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What about privacy?
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What about the constitutional arguments?
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There's other very strong views on methods of abortion.
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Selective abortion.
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If you look at the church's written position, which is in the newsroom there, it seemingly has a fairly clear position.
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I'll read it here.
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It said, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life.
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And I do.
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That's been my position on abortion.
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And I believe in the sanctity of human life.
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When I read that, I'm thinking of the mother's life as well as the child's life.
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and not just the child.
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When I read that, I wonder if the church is just referring to the child, but I don't see it just as the child.
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It's the mother's life as well.
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Therefore, the church continues, therefore the church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience and counsels its members not to submit, to perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange such abortions.
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You asked me if I'd been aware of any incidents where I've been involved in maybe church cases or rulings or judgments, situations with people who have aborted a fetus or a child, and I have indirectly and directly, I would say that the church at the first presidency level or at least a global position, a U.S.
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position, is much more in the middle, trying to walk a fine line between the debate about the mother's rights and the child's rights and trying to walk a political fine line.
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It's in a very interesting area for sure.
00:24:15.531 --> 00:24:25.238
But when you get involved in these issues at the stake and ward level, And if you're aware of this, the church position becomes much harder.
00:24:25.898 --> 00:24:30.723
And that is actually against abortion, not in extreme situations.
00:24:31.384 --> 00:24:39.493
But I'll give you an example where mothers have been encouraged to have the child and give the child up for adoption.
00:24:40.494 --> 00:24:50.105
And there are many, or at least some individuals over here across the world, including the US, the mother perhaps didn't want to have the child for different reasons.
00:24:50.978 --> 00:25:20.240
have been health emotional health you mentioned emotional health that's a major factor but was um encouraged perhaps even pressured from what i've heard and seen uh the mother to have the child and then put the child up for adoption and so i think the position of the church it becomes much firmer and stronger and hard i think at the stake in the ward level compared to the um the official church position globally.
00:25:20.801 --> 00:25:22.523
The church continues in its statement here.
00:25:22.545 --> 00:25:33.578
It said, the church allows for possible exceptions for its members when pregnancy results from rape or incest, or a competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.
00:25:34.099 --> 00:25:35.101
Well, that makes sense to me.
00:25:35.761 --> 00:25:37.845
That seems logical.
00:25:37.865 --> 00:25:41.690
A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects.
00:25:42.070 --> 00:25:44.894
Interestingly, they don't use the word child there.
00:25:46.296 --> 00:25:46.436
I've...
00:25:47.713 --> 00:25:50.538
aware that in the past, I remember Neal A.
00:25:50.558 --> 00:25:56.548
Maxwell came to UK many years ago when he was alive, and he, I think he gave a talk on this.
00:25:56.568 --> 00:25:57.169
I think it was Neal A.
00:25:57.210 --> 00:25:57.529
Maxwell.
00:25:57.569 --> 00:25:58.392
It could have been Paul H.
00:25:58.412 --> 00:25:58.632
Dunn.
00:25:59.313 --> 00:26:01.056
It's going back into the early 80s here.
00:26:01.596 --> 00:26:14.377
And there was a conversation that I heard about that the child at the point of conception, that's when the fetus becomes a child.
00:26:15.137 --> 00:26:20.224
And there's a whole discussion on at what point does the fetus become a child.
00:26:20.566 --> 00:26:26.354
Here it says that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.
00:26:26.453 --> 00:26:29.439
So they're referring to the child as a fetus.
00:26:29.739 --> 00:26:33.664
I don't know if the church, Jim, has a position on when the fetus becomes a child.
00:26:33.744 --> 00:26:35.587
I don't know if you want to jump in on that.
00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:42.617
Well, I know that the church has sort of refused to answer that question officially.
00:26:43.137 --> 00:26:48.663
I think there have been people who have tried to answer that question for them sort of unofficially.
00:26:48.683 --> 00:26:54.431
I mean, it sounds like that's what Elder Maxwell and or Elder Dunn was doing.
00:26:55.792 --> 00:27:05.384
But the church does not treat abortion the same way it treats murder.
00:27:08.609 --> 00:27:19.246
They've been very careful to insist that, I mean, if you go into the handbook, it talks about how murder is essentially an unforgivable sin, but abortion is not.
00:27:20.347 --> 00:27:32.586
And so the church has come under fire, both from conservatives and from liberals, by their unwillingness to sort of say, okay, this is the moment where life begins.
00:27:34.128 --> 00:27:39.708
But that allows them to have the kind of policy that that allows for exceptions.
00:27:39.827 --> 00:27:57.070
Because if we believe that life begins at conception and that a zygote is essentially the same as a fully grown human being, then our exceptions for rape and incest, particularly, are untenable.
00:27:57.932 --> 00:28:00.455
That's saying, oh, well, you can commit murder if you've been raped.
00:28:01.596 --> 00:28:21.891
And so obviously we don't believe that that's committing murder because we think that it's more important that a woman's mental health is preserved by not being forced to carry the child of her rapist to term than we are about the fully human identity of the fetus that's
00:28:21.971 --> 00:28:22.592
being aborted.
00:28:23.513 --> 00:28:24.454
And that's interesting.
00:28:24.494 --> 00:28:44.247
And another aspect of that, and this is part of the portion that I struggle to understand, and certainly generates strong feeling in me, looking at it from a father's perspective at least.
00:28:45.228 --> 00:28:57.286
You know, what is the church's position on late stage abortions where the child is developed, it is a baby and feels pain and has emotions and it's late stage.
00:28:58.887 --> 00:29:01.412
Let's define that, I don't know, as maybe seven, eight months.
00:29:02.953 --> 00:29:11.521
You know, children are born into this world as we know, six, seven, eight months, you know, premature births, and many survive.
00:29:12.182 --> 00:29:18.652
And so what's the church's view and position on late-stage abortions?
00:29:19.313 --> 00:29:23.338
One is, does the church still consider the child as a fetus?
00:29:25.301 --> 00:29:30.669
Does it still maintain its position, you know, for late-stage abortions?
00:29:30.808 --> 00:29:32.392
I don't know if it does.
00:29:32.451 --> 00:29:33.854
I don't know if it has the position on that.
00:29:35.521 --> 00:29:54.800
Well, I don't know that the church gets into that only because even under Roe versus Wade, abortion was legal, or I'm sorry, banning abortion was legal after the second trimester.
00:29:55.882 --> 00:30:01.386
So Roe versus Wade was really kind of a convoluted, messy framework.
00:30:03.048 --> 00:30:11.593
I mean, I was in the weird position of thinking, okay, I think abortion should be safe and legal throughout the United States.
00:30:11.814 --> 00:30:26.769
And I also think Roe versus Wade is bad law because I don't think Roe versus Wade, the Supreme Court essentially took it upon themselves to define every aspect of pregnancy.
00:30:26.849 --> 00:30:34.076
They created the idea of trimesters, that a pregnancy is divided into three different trimesters, three different parts.
00:30:34.945 --> 00:30:39.329
and did all of this, and I thought, this is not the Supreme Court's purview to do this.
00:30:39.451 --> 00:30:41.913
I think this should be the legislature's purview to do this.
00:30:41.952 --> 00:30:43.315
The Congress should be doing this.
00:30:44.415 --> 00:30:50.422
And they should pass laws to make it legal in all 50 states, and that makes more sense.
00:30:51.103 --> 00:30:58.971
So to me, that's now sort of an academic argument, now that Roe versus Wade is overturned, and we're seeing the result of it.
00:30:59.570 --> 00:31:06.928
But even under Roe versus Wade, Late-term abortions were banned in a number of different states.
00:31:08.069 --> 00:31:19.086
And what I found in, as I've looked at this issue again with fresh eyes, is that late-term abortion is exceptionally rare.
00:31:19.105 --> 00:31:27.498
And it's seldom, if ever, done electively.
00:31:28.354 --> 00:31:35.805
That is, it's never done for, you know what, I've carried this baby for seven months and now I've decided I don't want a baby and I want to look good in my dress again.
00:31:35.845 --> 00:31:41.452
And so I'm going to abort my seven, eight-month-old fetus.
00:31:42.794 --> 00:31:45.438
That just isn't something that happens.
00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:56.294
What happens is something tragic where the baby all of a sudden is shown to have developed some kind of life-threatening condition.
00:31:56.930 --> 00:32:04.999
Or the mother's health is now threatened to the point where you have to make a decision between the baby and the mother.
00:32:05.019 --> 00:32:15.392
I mean, these are heart-wrenching, just terrible, terrible circumstances in which nobody wants to find themselves.
00:32:16.393 --> 00:32:26.724
And so going to outlaw late-term abortion because you're afraid that people are going to be aborting viable babies.
00:32:28.467 --> 00:32:31.551
To some degree, it's a solution looking for a problem.
00:32:31.592 --> 00:32:40.503
And it's exacerbating a very real problem, which is that those who are seeking those kinds of late-term abortions desperately, desperately need them.
00:32:41.685 --> 00:32:48.174
And the legal landscape now is such that it's really kind of a gray area, and it's kind of difficult.
00:32:48.816 --> 00:32:54.228
And it's made worse by the kind of Republican demagoguery we see on abortion.
00:32:54.367 --> 00:33:05.023
Because Donald Trump goes around and says, not only do Democrats want to allow you to abort an eighth or ninth month, they carry out abortions after the baby is born.
00:33:05.064 --> 00:33:09.651
They kill the baby after they're born if they don't want it.
00:33:10.372 --> 00:33:12.555
And that's absolute nonsense.
00:33:13.096 --> 00:33:14.137
That's called murder.
00:33:14.337 --> 00:33:18.321
Once a baby is born, they are fully protected by the laws of the land.
00:33:18.883 --> 00:33:22.846
You do not have authority to kill them, and doctors are not killing them.
00:33:22.886 --> 00:33:30.434
And so the demagoguery that you're hearing from the Republicans in the United States is just shameless and shameful.
00:33:30.474 --> 00:33:36.942
It's just awful that they think that anybody believes this or anybody can buy this.
00:33:37.021 --> 00:34:02.550
So the late-term abortion argument There's a procedure that people refer to as partial birth abortion, where the labor is induced, and then as the baby is coming down through the birth canal, they are killed so that the baby is born dead.
00:34:03.593 --> 00:34:06.438
And that's a procedure that has been outlawed.
00:34:07.041 --> 00:34:15.891
in a number of different states and that was allowed to be outlawed even when Roe versus Wade was in effect.
00:34:16.431 --> 00:34:21.878
Roe versus Wade just said there can be no restrictions on abortion in the first trimester.
00:34:21.918 --> 00:34:24.661
There can be some restrictions in the second trimester.
00:34:25.342 --> 00:34:29.085
And after the second trimester, there can be as many restrictions as you want.
00:34:29.967 --> 00:34:36.213
So late-term abortion really isn't, the debate over it really isn't affected.
00:34:37.346 --> 00:34:45.338
by this because it was already okay to make it illegal prior to the reversal of Roe versus Wade.
00:34:45.378 --> 00:34:46.239
Does that make any sense?
00:34:46.940 --> 00:34:47.280
It does.
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:48.061
It does make sense.
00:34:50.364 --> 00:35:09.692
I would add that, notwithstanding that, from your sources, that there are very few late-term abortions, the fact was or has been historically that an individual could have under the law at that time, perform a late-term abortion if they wanted to.
00:35:09.931 --> 00:35:11.954
So the law, I understand, allowed that.
00:35:13.016 --> 00:35:39.396
And going back to your question about how do I feel or what do I think of my position, and people have opinions of position on these things, the idea of a baby being killed is abhorred to me, notwithstanding the other considerations of the mother, it's a very difficult thing for me to get my head round.
00:35:39.436 --> 00:35:54.436
And, you know, this is, I think, first and foremost, and again, I don't claim to fully understand this, but I think first and foremost, this is a personal, private matter for the mother first.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:00.246
I think the mother's opinion and position is absolutely paramount.
00:36:01.025 --> 00:36:04.628
for these reasons and other reasons that we haven't probably discussed.
00:36:04.688 --> 00:36:09.753
You've talked about health, mental health and physical health and all these other factors.
00:36:10.054 --> 00:36:28.791
And I think if there was a percentage of influence on whether the fetus or child should be aborted, I think it's the mother that makes the decision, the individual that makes the final decision at the end.
00:36:28.911 --> 00:36:43.431
That decision should reside with the mother, notwithstanding the strong feelings I have on late-term abortions, which, again, we said earlier that individuals could do that when the law allowed that.
00:36:44.112 --> 00:37:00.710
If you go back to the quote here, or the position of the statement of the church on this newsroom here, he says, he talked about a competent physician determines that the fetus is a severe defect that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.
00:37:01.291 --> 00:37:07.199
He goes on to say that even these exceptions do not automatically justify abortion.
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.585
So it's pulling itself back and it's taking a further position.
00:37:12.005 --> 00:37:15.490
He goes on to say that abortion is a most serious matter.
00:37:17.012 --> 00:37:18.034
And I agree with that.
00:37:18.534 --> 00:37:20.577
But then he says something very interesting and quite strange.
00:37:20.918 --> 00:37:29.097
He said it should be considered only after the persons responsible have received confirmation through prayer.
00:37:30.380 --> 00:37:31.461
I find that extraordinary.
00:37:31.902 --> 00:37:45.003
We've talked about, we're aware of many people in our lives who have prayed endlessly with faith and fasting for weeks, months, years, and never received an answer.
00:37:45.043 --> 00:37:54.989
So is the church saying here that you should only make a decision to have an abortion if you receive confirmation through prayer.
00:37:56.550 --> 00:37:58.112
What's the law's position on this?
00:37:58.172 --> 00:37:58.893
What does he think?
00:37:58.972 --> 00:38:01.596
Does the church reflect the law's position on this?
00:38:01.876 --> 00:38:06.141
Are they, if the prophet and Jesus Christ, in sync or something like this?
00:38:07.202 --> 00:38:17.432
What I get from that is that you can't make a decision on having an abortion if you haven't received confirmation through prayer.
00:38:17.652 --> 00:38:26.619
And then it goes on to say something else, which I think is a big burden on bishops and state presidents, Members may counsel with the bishops as part of this process, but they don't give any training to the bishops.
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:31.788
You know, when I've been involved in directly on things like this, there's no training given to me as a bishop.
00:38:32.168 --> 00:38:34.692
I wasn't involved in anything direct.
00:38:35.672 --> 00:38:40.079
It was through personal conversations with friends.
00:38:41.019 --> 00:38:41.742
It wasn't official.
00:38:43.384 --> 00:38:46.628
But bishops don't have any retraining on this.
00:38:46.688 --> 00:39:01.858
I mean, what a big responsibility to place on a bishop who perhaps like me, didn't fully understand all the different factors, all the different considerations, and what advice the bishop can give if they're not really trained or something like this.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:09.668
It says here, to finish off the position of the statement of the church from the newsroom there, it says, the church's position on this matter remains unchanged.
00:39:11.090 --> 00:39:20.061
As states work to enact laws related to abortion, church members may appropriately choose to participate in efforts to protect life and preserved life.
00:39:20.193 --> 00:39:22.536
preserve religious liberty.
00:39:23.237 --> 00:39:27.742
So he's taking a, you know, he's trying to take a line, a broad line in the center there.
00:39:28.284 --> 00:39:34.592
And, you know, there's so many factors, so many layers on this.
00:39:34.632 --> 00:39:44.224
You know, we've talked about, you know, the moral personhood, you know, consistency, responsibility to the mother, you know, the moral certainty.
00:39:44.264 --> 00:40:07.902
These are the factors, your right to life, you know, the rights of children, The mother, rights of the unborn child, the rights of the father, the religious views on abortion, when you're looking at the views of Christian faiths, including the Mormon church as well, and how that influences mothers.
00:40:08.443 --> 00:40:13.768
And of course, you've got philosophical and ethical issues and concerns as well from society.
00:40:13.889 --> 00:40:13.989
It's...
00:40:16.001 --> 00:40:19.306
But you're trying to make sense of it and trying to understand it.
00:40:19.327 --> 00:40:41.900
I think in my mind, it comes down to the mother should make the final choice and taking all these things into account and should receive or get access to, you made the really important point really, but where the mother should have access to professional advice and counsel.
00:40:42.922 --> 00:40:44.344
You know, it's so important.
00:40:44.405 --> 00:41:23.197
This is such a, such an important uh topic um where we're dealing with you know the life of the mother and the fetus or the child and so the best thing i think that the different jurisdictions can do and the church can do and i think they they do or try to do many of them is to what you said early jim is help the mother get the best advice you know, mental health, physical health, what's her condition, what does she think, how does she feel about this?
00:41:23.317 --> 00:41:26.199
I think you have to, the default is the mother, I think.
00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:36.690
And so what is her position, her feelings on this, and the mother receiving the very best counsel and advice.
00:41:36.751 --> 00:42:07.809
Because I met, Jim, I met individuals who have come to me as a bishop and this is where I was going with part of my experience area that I was referring to, at least part of, where sisters have come to me as a leader in the church, and they've shared their extraordinary guilt and sadness that years ago they had an abortion.
00:42:08.610 --> 00:42:14.759
And the guilt and the sadness and the heartbreak that they carry.
00:42:14.798 --> 00:42:42.164
And as they opened up their stories, shared their experiences, they shared that as the church teaches about the sanctity of life, and abortion is only the last resort under certain circumstances, yet they went ahead and went through with the abortion, they carry this intense, extraordinary amount of guilt and pain, and they suffer emotionally, mentally.
00:42:43.137 --> 00:42:44.679
And it's traumatic.
00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:45.460
It traumatizes.
00:42:46.702 --> 00:43:03.965
And I've even had individuals say, will they see the child that they aborted in the next life so they can seek forgiveness, that they can say sorry and seek forgiveness and be reunited with that child?
00:43:04.161 --> 00:43:05.923
the spirit of the aborted child.
00:43:06.384 --> 00:43:09.086
These are some of the conversations that I have actually been part of.
00:43:09.807 --> 00:43:12.409
And of course, I don't know the answer to that.
00:43:12.791 --> 00:43:13.711
I think that's where the Neal A.
00:43:13.751 --> 00:43:37.175
Maxwell thing came in because the information I got back then as a leader or part of the conversation, at least, came from Maxwell that children who had been aborted, that their spirits would receive a physical body at some point in the future and that they would be resurrected.
00:43:37.436 --> 00:43:46.949
That abortion would not prevent the child from experiencing a physical body.
00:43:47.048 --> 00:43:49.612
And I'm pretty sure 99% it came from Neal A.
00:43:49.652 --> 00:43:51.353
Maxwell going back many, many years.
00:43:51.393 --> 00:43:53.597
It's so layered.
00:43:53.637 --> 00:43:58.001
It's so, the emotions are so high.
00:43:58.041 --> 00:44:00.284
There's so many positions, so many views on this.
00:44:01.442 --> 00:44:16.827
And then to what you were saying earlier, you've got this landscape of changes across the United States where in some states, I understand, Jim, that you women can't have an abortion under any circumstances.
00:44:16.889 --> 00:44:32.614
I don't know if that's correct or if that's the media spinning it, but I understand there's some states out there that even if the woman has been raped or This is a case of incest that they still have to go through with the pregnancy.
00:44:32.715 --> 00:44:34.257
Is that correct?
00:44:34.936 --> 00:44:37.760
That's absolutely correct.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:38.840
That's extraordinary.
00:44:39.041 --> 00:44:48.110
I mean, I think there are very narrow exceptions to save the life of the mother for almost all of these restrictive laws that have gone into effect.
00:44:48.831 --> 00:44:53.936
But I don't know any of them that allow for an exception in rape or incest.
00:44:54.556 --> 00:44:55.157
And, you know...
00:44:55.905 --> 00:45:01.134
The presidential campaign is really heating up on this issue.
00:45:02.076 --> 00:45:02.476
J.D.
00:45:02.556 --> 00:45:23.289
Vance, Trump's vice presidential nominee, has said that the rape and incest exceptions are ridiculous because you shouldn't be able to have an abortion to deal with that kind of an inconvenience, is the word that he used, which is an inconvenience.
00:45:24.193 --> 00:45:25.155
Give me a break, buddy.
00:45:25.175 --> 00:45:26.257
Show some humanity.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:40.422
And Kamala Harris is making abortion, I think, the right to choose her preeminent issue.
00:45:40.802 --> 00:45:46.331
She's talking about that everywhere she goes, and she's getting a really positive reaction.
00:45:47.094 --> 00:45:49.597
And the Republicans are sort of back on their heels now.
00:45:50.081 --> 00:45:52.065
on this because they don't know how to respond to it.
00:45:52.125 --> 00:45:56.090
Donald Trump lies and says, well, everybody wanted abortion to go back to the states.
00:45:56.271 --> 00:46:01.097
And so Roe versus Wade being overturned made everybody happy because everybody wanted it in the states.
00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:04.063
It's like, no, it didn't make everybody happy, Don.
00:46:04.083 --> 00:46:11.793
So, yeah, it's a very fraught issue.
00:46:11.815 --> 00:46:38.789
But I think it is the issue that makes it impossible for members of the church to feel comfortable tearing themselves away from the Republican Party, no matter how abusive that relationship is, no matter how many things the Republican Party does that go contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ, then I think there are many.
00:46:38.809 --> 00:46:49.202
I think front and center is that the church's position on immigration is diametrically opposed to the position of the Republican Party.
00:46:49.730 --> 00:47:07.695
I think I've talked about this on this podcast, but I interviewed for a job with the church as the church's director of governmental relations with a guy who said, look, we issued a statement as a church that was a very sort of liberal statement on immigration.
00:47:08.878 --> 00:47:17.050
And all these Republicans that same week went to their state convention and condemned the church's statement on immigration.
00:47:17.793 --> 00:47:20.797
And they all insisted, well, this didn't come from the brethren.
00:47:20.838 --> 00:47:22.239
This didn't come from the prophet.
00:47:22.260 --> 00:47:29.750
I mean, this is what they always do when the church does something, and it's not Russell Nelson standing there and saying it himself.
00:47:30.530 --> 00:47:34.396
They're always able to sort of scoot it under the rug and say the church doesn't really mean it.
00:47:34.717 --> 00:47:47.574
And the director of government relations, Bill Evans, who's since passed away, so I don't feel bad about using his name, but he said, it's amazing to me that they think that we could ever go rogue.
00:47:48.353 --> 00:47:59.911
You know, the church could ever issue a statement from its government relations department and just go rogue and go against anything that the apostles or prophets would want.
00:48:00.512 --> 00:48:08.503
He said, everything we say goes up the ladder and is approved at the highest levels of church government.
00:48:08.583 --> 00:48:29.213
So the abortion issue is the one where people say you can't be a good member of the church and not be a Republican because all these other, the Democrats, they just support abortion and they support abortion after birth.
00:48:29.293 --> 00:48:33.641
They support the killing of babies, which is absolute nonsense.
00:48:34.342 --> 00:48:42.675
But the reality is that you don't prevent abortion by making it illegal.
00:48:44.478 --> 00:48:56.115
You get people to cross state lines It's interesting because I think the numbers, the rate of abortion has gone down since all of these laws have gone into effect.
00:48:56.918 --> 00:49:05.371
But I think it's temporary because I think what's happening is that you're starting to see people trying to figure out how to navigate this landscape.
00:49:05.952 --> 00:49:12.121
And if I wanted abortion and I live in the state of Utah, how do I get to the state of Nevada?
00:49:12.929 --> 00:49:16.793
And what do I have to do in order to be able to get an appointment?
00:49:17.373 --> 00:49:29.286
I mean, a lot of these abortion-friendly states that are bordering abortion-restrictive states talk about being overwhelmed by out-of-state visitors coming to try to get abortions.
00:49:29.346 --> 00:49:29.806
And J.D.
00:49:29.847 --> 00:49:40.277
Vance has said that we need to criminalize crossing state lines for people who are trying to get abortions, which is absolutely 100% unconstitutional.
00:49:40.317 --> 00:49:40.938
You cannot...
00:49:41.634 --> 00:49:44.818
prevent anybody from crossing state lines for any reason.
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:59.639
And it's just, it is such a fraught issue, and it's an issue that everybody now approaches tribally rather than rationally.
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:01.742
It's what does my tribe say?
00:50:01.782 --> 00:50:03.965
What does the guy in charge say?
00:50:04.005 --> 00:50:05.766
What does my party say?
00:50:06.327 --> 00:50:07.630
What does the prophet say?
00:50:07.650 --> 00:50:10.574
But not what does the data say?
00:50:11.554 --> 00:50:14.757
what does the information say?
00:50:14.898 --> 00:50:22.246
And the information is, you keep abortion safe and legal, and fewer and fewer people need them.
00:50:23.266 --> 00:50:27.170
They're there if you need them, but fewer and fewer...
00:50:27.530 --> 00:50:39.403
And so, yes, if you keep abortion safe and legal, there will be people who use it sort of as contraception, electively, and that's what the church decries and says is immoral.
00:50:41.378 --> 00:50:56.954
In my way of thinking, that's the price you pay in order to be able to allow for abortion in the cases where it is genuinely medically necessary.
00:50:56.994 --> 00:51:00.398
And you don't prevent that.
00:51:00.478 --> 00:51:05.081
And when I say that's the price you pay, people will say, oh, see, you're okay with abortion happening.
00:51:05.483 --> 00:51:08.445
Well, you're okay with abortion happening.
00:51:09.090 --> 00:51:12.353
Because your restrictive policies increase abortion.
00:51:13.635 --> 00:51:16.239
We have the data that shows it happens overseas.
00:51:16.838 --> 00:51:20.224
And I'm pretty sure that data is going to sort of shake out here.
00:51:20.443 --> 00:51:31.016
And when we discover that you haven't prevented abortion, you've just made it far more inconvenient, made it far more difficult for people who need an abortion to get one.
00:51:31.056 --> 00:51:36.222
And those who still want abortion are still going to be able to cross state lines and get one.
00:51:37.043 --> 00:51:37.684
And so it's...
00:51:39.106 --> 00:51:54.286
I actually, to some degree, I'm actually quite proud of the church for not changing their stance on this.
00:51:54.947 --> 00:52:08.385
I'm kind of embarrassed by how we approach it rhetorically, because the way the church speaks about abortion, the way Elder Anderson spoke about abortion in this last talk, it sounded like he could be talking at the Republican National Convention.
00:52:08.802 --> 00:52:11.266
I mean, the exceptions were noted.
00:52:11.306 --> 00:52:15.032
Yes, there are some, but they're very rare and they're very small.
00:52:15.552 --> 00:52:18.318
Let's talk about all the terrible people who get abortions.
00:52:19.940 --> 00:52:22.364
I don't think that's particularly helpful.
00:52:23.045 --> 00:52:32.382
And I don't think that Latter-day Saints, believing Latter-day Saints, I don't think generally they're looking good.
00:52:32.833 --> 00:52:34.476
to have those kind of abortions.
00:52:35.016 --> 00:52:45.909
I think when a thoughtful, believing Latter-day Saint finds themselves in a position where they need an abortion, they're in dire straits.
00:52:46.670 --> 00:52:50.094
I mean, they're in a place where they never ever thought they'd be.
00:52:50.135 --> 00:52:52.177
They're in a place where they never wanted to be.
00:52:52.197 --> 00:53:08.505
And for the church to sort of rail on abortion generically when the specific cases of abortion within the church come up, are really outside the boundaries of that general moral condemnation.
00:53:09.608 --> 00:53:16.858
I really wish the church's rhetoric more accurately reflected the substance of the policy.
00:53:16.898 --> 00:53:17.719
Does that make sense?
00:53:18.099 --> 00:53:18.780
It does make sense.
00:53:19.521 --> 00:53:21.585
In many ways, I'm glad we're having this conversation.
00:53:21.625 --> 00:53:24.728
It's something that we've touched upon or referenced.
00:53:24.748 --> 00:53:30.717
It's something we've discussed whether we should discuss it or not, have a podcast about it.
00:53:31.458 --> 00:53:38.927
Oh, I've always, I've just been so uncertain, unsure, you know, and how do I approach this?
00:53:40.630 --> 00:53:53.527
But as I've researched this further in preparation for the podcast, and I do have, I want to be clear, I do have very strong views and feelings on a child being killed.
00:53:53.568 --> 00:54:32.385
Of course, that just fills me with, awfulness you know i don't want a child to be killed you know and i'm talking about a child and you know the child could be hurt or experience pain or the life to be taken you know my whole body my mind just tells me that's just wrong um and in and of course on the other um uh other aspects of this whole um topic there's so many of the factors you know is the child a fetus um You know, we talked about incest and rape, and there's so many other factors.
00:54:33.487 --> 00:54:45.431
And I think, you know, when you talk about people have, you know, a lot of people are in certain camps, there's either this or that, or it's either it's black and white, it's just wrong and shouldn't do it, or it's right and you shouldn't do it.
00:54:45.472 --> 00:54:47.556
It's not like that.
00:54:48.257 --> 00:54:50.101
You know, my position has changed.
00:54:50.181 --> 00:55:04.474
As I Over the years, as I looked at it, the topic of abortion when I was younger, and I just saw it as being murder, killing a child unnecessarily, and so it could be avoided.
00:55:04.514 --> 00:55:12.226
And then as I've learned a little bit more about it, there's so many other layers and different aspects that I just didn't understand.
00:55:12.246 --> 00:55:13.126
I wasn't privy to it.
00:55:13.186 --> 00:55:21.197
Even now, I can't say I fully understand the topic comprehensively compared to others.
00:55:22.338 --> 00:55:24.882
But there's so many different aspects to this.
00:55:25.121 --> 00:55:49.699
And again, I think it's very, hopefully in this conversation, by looking at the different aspects and looking at the different layers and the different angles, we are communicating in a thoughtful and a respectful way, notwithstanding strong feelings that we may have, but looking at it in a very in a very balanced way.
00:55:49.739 --> 00:55:56.768
And of course, to your point, this comes very strongly into US politics.
00:55:57.690 --> 00:55:58.911
I'm here in the UK.
00:55:59.030 --> 00:56:01.894
They just had a massive landslide with Labour.
00:56:01.914 --> 00:56:05.960
I think Tories got 650 seats.
00:56:06.681 --> 00:56:10.206
That was the total number of seats in Parliament here.
00:56:10.485 --> 00:56:14.231
And Tories went from something like 375 right down to 104, 110.
00:56:15.853 --> 00:56:19.556
Labour's got I think over 400 seats.
00:56:19.617 --> 00:56:27.626
It's a complete destruction of the Tory or the Conservative Party across a number of different policies.
00:56:28.427 --> 00:56:30.489
I kind of followed it from Canada.
00:56:30.791 --> 00:56:33.775
And abortion really wasn't the issue.
00:56:33.815 --> 00:56:35.657
That just doesn't, it's not discussed.
00:56:36.657 --> 00:56:40.342
You know, there are laws and regulations around abortions, etc.
00:56:41.605 --> 00:56:45.949
But the UK is more of a secular country.
00:56:46.338 --> 00:56:50.983
more liberal society than it used to be back in the 40s and 50s.
00:56:52.505 --> 00:57:02.474
Just as a personal note, by the way, from my own family, you all know this, but my mother had an unexpected pregnancy at the age of 16.
00:57:04.677 --> 00:57:06.320
I didn't know this until many years ago.
00:57:06.360 --> 00:57:09.983
And they made her have the child.
00:57:11.105 --> 00:57:14.188
So this is going back to the late 40s.
00:57:14.548 --> 00:57:15.690
She was only 16 years old.
00:57:16.065 --> 00:57:21.592
She was threatened physically by members of the family.
00:57:21.612 --> 00:57:27.159
I don't know if she wanted to have an abortion or not, but she was told she must have the child.
00:57:28.619 --> 00:57:34.666
She was told that the child would be put up for adoption.
00:57:34.686 --> 00:57:38.050
I don't know if she wanted to keep the child or not.
00:57:38.411 --> 00:57:41.894
I heard that she did, but I don't know how reliable that is.
00:57:41.976 --> 00:57:43.637
But when she was 16, she had this...
00:57:44.353 --> 00:57:47.978
this child, and I have a brother I've never met.
00:57:48.978 --> 00:57:50.239
I hear his name's called Robert.
00:57:52.141 --> 00:57:52.262
Why?
00:57:52.862 --> 00:57:54.784
And you all know that.
00:57:54.804 --> 00:57:56.106
It's the first time we've talked about this.
00:57:56.666 --> 00:58:03.833
But I do know from speaking to people who knew my mom really well, who my mom opened up to.
00:58:03.913 --> 00:58:05.173
She never opened up to me about this.
00:58:07.817 --> 00:58:12.300
She felt enormous guilt and trauma and sadness and regret.
00:58:13.057 --> 00:58:15.260
and pain over this whole thing.
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:19.824
And I don't know all the details, but Robert was given it for adoption.
00:58:20.346 --> 00:58:31.978
And so I think if there's one thing I do know, I can say for a level of certainty, is that there are so many different factors, so many different considerations, and it's a very personal and private thing.
00:58:32.418 --> 00:58:38.045
Each situation is probably unique and distinct in that individual's life, right?
00:58:38.565 --> 00:58:39.487
Is it a health thing?
00:58:39.606 --> 00:58:42.250
Is it something that is...
00:58:42.945 --> 00:58:47.530
The child has, you know, conceptions come about through rape.
00:58:49.753 --> 00:58:58.400
You know, the thought of a woman giving birth to a child which comes from rape, I just can't imagine how she might feel.
00:58:58.440 --> 00:58:59.981
So there's so many different layers.
00:59:00.503 --> 00:59:13.467
And I think and I hope and believe that we've tried to approach this in a very kind and a very respectful way and communicated that there are so many different angles, different layers.
00:59:14.188 --> 00:59:35.230
I think we have, at least we try to, notwithstanding what you were saying earlier, that people are very, you know, there is a certain camp and there's no circumstances in which a child should be aborted compared to, you know, the other end of the spectrum where, you know, they can abort under any circumstances.
00:59:35.329 --> 00:59:36.731
I don't think that's the case, but...
00:59:37.952 --> 00:59:38.233
So...
00:59:38.978 --> 00:59:41.340
Anyway, that's how I've tried to approach.
00:59:41.501 --> 00:59:56.056
I was cautious about this and a little bit nervous about this because I just didn't want to come across disrespectful, even though I've got certain strong feelings about it.
00:59:57.818 --> 01:00:01.682
So I did ask you to lead us on this because I think you're more informed on this.
01:00:01.762 --> 01:00:06.668
And certainly on the political side, you've got more of a better take on this than I have.
01:00:07.668 --> 01:00:12.469
Well, I think your sense of caution is well placed.
01:00:13.610 --> 01:00:38.014
It's not lost, shouldn't be lost on anybody, at least of all us, that we are two privileged white guys talking about an issue that really should be the province of the women who deal with this in a way that we are never going to be able to deal with.
01:00:38.402 --> 01:00:39.103
forced to do.
01:00:39.443 --> 01:00:40.465
We'll never understand it.
01:00:40.585 --> 01:00:41.266
We'll never know.
01:00:41.306 --> 01:00:42.027
How can you?
01:00:42.086 --> 01:00:45.391
Didn't Josephus say there's no substitute for experience, right?
01:00:45.871 --> 01:00:48.996
How can we possibly know what the mother is going through?
01:00:51.500 --> 01:00:52.661
We just don't know.
01:00:53.663 --> 01:01:12.907
Well, just in broad terms, in broad strokes, the things that I think make it important to talk about within the church are that are the way abortion ties particularly American Mormons directly to the Republican Party.
01:01:13.347 --> 01:01:14.349
That needs to stop.
01:01:15.291 --> 01:01:21.039
We need to recognize that people who vote for Democrats are not eager to see babies killed.
01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:27.807
They are not, I don't know anybody, I don't know anybody who loves abortion.
01:01:28.869 --> 01:01:39.076
Everybody that is faced with the challenge of should I or should I not get an abortion is always in a circumstance where it is a wrenching and terrible decision.
01:01:39.215 --> 01:01:45.804
I don't think there is any human being that approaches this lightly and takes it as if it's no big deal.
01:01:46.445 --> 01:02:00.204
And the way the church frames it rhetorically, it tries to sort of create this world where everybody's just out getting abortions as if they're brushing their teeth and they just don't care and they're these evil people.
01:02:02.369 --> 01:02:04.552
I don't see that in the real world.
01:02:04.572 --> 01:02:12.485
I see abortion rates falling as people become educated and people have access to contraception and people avoid unwanted pregnancy.
01:02:13.347 --> 01:02:31.353
And so that's, I think, the route we ought to take rather than sit here and condemn and sit here and point fingers and sit here and have the Supreme Court of Texas decide whether or not this woman's life is in sufficient danger that this medical procedure is necessary.
01:02:32.001 --> 01:02:34.625
We ought to be coming at it from the side of compassion.
01:02:35.206 --> 01:02:42.554
We ought to be coming at it from the side of understanding and say, okay, abortion is always a terrible thing.
01:02:42.574 --> 01:02:52.726
I mean, it's not terrible if it's saving a life, but it's never something that anybody ever wants to be put in a situation where it becomes necessary.
01:02:52.746 --> 01:02:54.548
And so...
01:02:56.001 --> 01:03:06.778
If we approach it that way and we approach it with compassion, I think we then all of a sudden go, okay, well, what can we do to make it less necessary, to make it unnecessary?
01:03:06.858 --> 01:03:12.827
What can we do to change the circumstances so that fewer and fewer babies are aborted?
01:03:13.768 --> 01:03:24.365
And that's a much better strategy, I think much more consistent strategy with the teachings of the church than let's just make it illegal and punish everybody.
01:03:24.769 --> 01:03:26.152
Yeah, I agree.
01:03:26.532 --> 01:03:38.349
And I would add to that as well, we kind of covered this, but every woman, mother, should have access to professional counseling, health, mental health, a physician, right?
01:03:39.309 --> 01:03:42.996
Full support, family, friends, as much as you can, professional help.
01:03:43.476 --> 01:03:44.637
Goodness me, they need it.
01:03:44.994 --> 01:03:46.536
As much help as you can get, right?
01:03:46.715 --> 01:03:48.918
And thoughtfulness and kindness and compassion.
01:03:49.639 --> 01:03:56.949
Also, you know, let's not rely or wait on an answer to a prayer to get confirmation whether someone should have an abortion.
01:03:57.090 --> 01:03:59.974
It just seems odd, very strange to me.
01:04:00.034 --> 01:04:05.860
And I think the church should remove that from its statement there on the newsroom.
01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:07.543
It's kind of strange, isn't it, that one?
01:04:08.023 --> 01:04:09.365
But it's also unenforceable.
01:04:09.697 --> 01:04:10.077
Right?
01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:15.744
I mean, the church can say, give me evidence that you received the answer to your prayer.
01:04:16.364 --> 01:04:18.786
Yeah, I just, I mean, how do you interpret it?
01:04:18.827 --> 01:04:19.467
Did it happen?
01:04:19.668 --> 01:04:22.650
I mean, some people might get a clear answer, others might not.
01:04:22.731 --> 01:04:34.163
I mean, it just seems a very strange thing to say on something that's a very, you know, very clear statements and positions from the church there on that statement, and then it goes kind of all weird.
01:04:34.742 --> 01:04:40.032
And the other thing as well, if the church is listening to this, Give your bishop some training.
01:04:41.876 --> 01:04:47.184
Give your state president some training and the councillors and your Relief Society president, right?
01:04:47.443 --> 01:05:06.041
And especially your Relief Society president, because what I understand often is the mother or the individual should have the opportunity, if they feel so comfortable, going to speak to a woman, not the guy, right?
01:05:06.161 --> 01:05:07.443
Is that the guy thing, right?
01:05:07.523 --> 01:06:07.077
You know, you mentioned earlier that you've got these two privileged white guys that have a limited understanding and perspective on this, but let's train our Relief Society presidents and give some professional training for if and when a young woman or a woman has a child and is confused or not sure what to do they can go talk to a woman in the church who is kind and compassionate who can retain a confidence right who doesn't have to sit in front of a man and go through all these emotions and feelings in front of a guy i mean that is just adding more trauma i think But let's train the bishop, let's train the state presidents, and please let's put some resources in to train the Lusitania presidents so they can be a full support, an additional resource, in addition to physicians and other professional mental health counselors.
01:06:07.597 --> 01:06:58.889
Let's support the mother, the woman, in every way that we can and that is the right thing to do i think that's what uh christ would do christ would provide as much resources as he could and he would hold them and hug these individuals and show love and compassion um so yeah that that those last two few thoughts i've just had you know i've struggled uh to try to uh communicate my thoughts and feelings on such an emotive topic here but the last few comments i feel very clear about and um certain about because i think they are sensible i think logical and i think that's what uh you know i think the woman the mother should get all this probably including resources in the church as much as they can get i
01:07:00.972 --> 01:07:22.429
think that is a great summation of what we've talked about i mean i think anybody that is listening to this um who is in a circumstance where abortion is now something that's being discussed, I think both of us can encourage them to seek out professional counsel, medical counsel.
01:07:24.291 --> 01:07:28.416
I don't want to discourage anybody from talking to their ecclesiastical leaders.
01:07:29.958 --> 01:07:57.367
I want to say, however, that medical advice and competent Mental health professionals, I think everybody should be in as part of this discussion because I think just doing this as sort of a reflexive tribal reaction to an explosive issue is a great way to ruin lives.
01:07:59.309 --> 01:08:03.114
The more counsel you can get from the more competent people you can get, the better.
01:08:03.554 --> 01:08:07.039
So anyway, thank you very much for...
01:08:07.179 --> 01:08:09.141
I just think...
01:08:09.570 --> 01:08:15.336
Your point there at the end is probably the most important point in all of this.
01:08:15.356 --> 01:08:23.867
I think that it's advice that the church as an institution ought to follow, that we ought to be seeking counsel from medical professionals.
01:08:24.408 --> 01:08:31.676
We ought to be training bishops to be able to point people in the direction of medical professionals when this kind of thing comes up.
01:08:31.756 --> 01:08:33.698
So I really appreciate you raising that.
01:08:33.859 --> 01:08:35.881
I think this has been a very productive discussion.
01:08:36.833 --> 01:08:40.885
So with that, we thank you all for your time.
01:08:40.925 --> 01:08:42.288
Thank you for listening to us.
01:08:42.328 --> 01:08:44.855
See you next time on Inside Out.
01:08:45.176 --> 01:08:46.199
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:08:46.220 --> 01:08:47.743
Thank you, Jim.