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00:00:08.880Welcome back to another episode of Level Love.
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00:00:12.080We are back on today for another cracking episode.
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00:00:28.399And one thing, well, one of the reasons I wanted to get him on is I'm I'm really passionate about people that are passionate about what they do.
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00:00:36.320And also I really like it when people uh start other businesses or follow their passion so that they can get better results.
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00:00:39.280And um the guest I've got for you today has done exactly that.
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00:00:42.000So massive warm welcome to uh Jackson Digney.
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00:00:43.200How are you, mate?
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00:00:44.640Good.
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00:00:45.840Thanks for having me.
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00:00:47.039Uh all good, mate.
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00:00:52.079So to give people a little bit of an idea, you uh you're a builder, you um you have enduro builders.
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00:00:53.759Yep.
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00:00:56.479But you also have climbershore.
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00:00:58.880So that's right.
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00:01:03.359We um we I mean I started induro ten years ago.
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00:01:14.959Um actually last month tipped over 10 years, and uh climb ashore I started uh five years ago.
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00:01:32.319Um I started Climb Ashore because the the journey with Enduro, I I started Enduro always uh wanting to do sustainable and energy efficient homes, and I quickly started to learn that there's a big difference between those two things.
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00:01:40.799They do overlap with each other, but they are two very different um kind of meth the two different approaches.
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00:01:55.920Um and the the energy efficient side of that approach led to um airtightness, which very quickly led to dealing with moisture, and that introduced me to Proclimber.
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00:02:06.239And then uh we became well, we became uh ProClimber's biggest South Australian client, because we were the only South Australian client.
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00:02:22.800Uh and the um yeah, the guys at ProClimber got in touch and said, Do you want to um stop buying from Justin in uh Victoria and you know become a become a distributor, which also means selling it to other people.
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00:02:38.400And I I was like, oh that for me, that is perfectly in alignment with um the reason that the reason that Enduro exists, which is to improve the quality, health, and comfort of the housing stock in South Australia.
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00:02:51.439So um, but I'm also aware that some builders are really open and happy to like I am, to everything that they know, and some of it will be helpful and some of it won't.
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00:02:55.039Other builders are a bit funny about that.
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00:03:12.319Um so we started Climbershore so that there was just a little bit of I suppose branding separation um and and employed Jess, who you know, um, to run that business, which also just gave a little bit of personal separation.
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00:03:40.879Um and yeah, Jess has done a fantastic job really growing growing that business um to to where it is and and doing a lot of learning on the practical side and spending spending a lot of time in site site meetings with builders with me, sort of soaking up the the sort of hands-on building part that goes comes after all of the building science part.
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00:03:42.319So yeah.
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00:03:46.400Yeah, this um I think this podcast's been going on for hours, mate.
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00:03:47.680I've definitely got a lot of questions.
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00:03:48.240I don't know.
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00:03:53.199That's why I'm trying to stop myself rather than just going to be a good thing.
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00:03:54.639Yeah, I've got a big list here.
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00:04:01.759And mate, that's fine because I'm sure it would be quality information.
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00:04:08.000But the um I've put together some notes because there's a few things I wanted to make sure we we definitely cover today.
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00:04:42.399Because I do feel like in a like I'm not sure if it's just because I'm aware of it now, but like a lot of people in the building industry like just they they get into it because they like being hands-on, they do an apprenticeship, they they might move on and become a builder, but they tend to just stay in that lane, they follow very old-fashioned practices and ways that they were taught, and they don't necessarily keep up with how uh well, I don't know if I'd want to keep up with how the industry is progressing, but they don't really put themselves out there to better their knowledge so that they can deliver better products to their client.
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00:04:55.600Um, I guess that's why I'm a big fan of yours and what you've done, and like I said, because you've you've actually created another business um alongside your building business to to help more builders understand, um, which I think is fantastic.
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00:05:04.079But I think we'll if we can dive into Enduro Builders a little bit first, because I guess that'll give us a bit more of an insight and and background into why you do what you do with ClimateShore.
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00:05:08.160But um yeah, tell us, I guess, how you got into building.
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00:05:13.040Like, is building something you've always wanted to do, or um give us a little bit of your background first.
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00:05:24.720Yeah, so when I was uh so my other man um right up until just before I was born was uh in hardware.
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00:05:29.360So he he owned a couple of MITA 10 stores, I think at one point he owned five.
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00:05:38.879Um and that this was back in the because I was born in '83, so this was like late 70s into the early 80s.
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00:06:13.120Um and at one point he was the managing director of MITA 10 Australia, and he um he kind of kept a lot of contact with the hardware side of things, even though he he sort of finished up with MITA 10 when I was born because he uh that role involved a lot of traveling and a lot of um a lot of time away, which didn't wasn't wasn't congruent with his goals for being around for his kids.
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00:06:42.800Um I it meant that I grew up in a household where uh I was really exposed to small business and small business problems because my old man became a business consultant and um and very much ran an at-home business that was the people would come for meetings at our house and often be sitting around the dining table as we're all hurling around after school and things like that.
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00:06:43.439Yeah.
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00:06:52.879Um, and uh I kind of as I grew up I wanted to be lots of different things, one of which was a property developer.
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00:07:50.079Um, and that kind of um never never happened because when I finished school, I I did really well in accounting at school, and when I finished school, I applied for university positions in construction management at one uni, and um Commerce was specializing in accounting, finance, and marketing uh at another university, and the the university that both both spots got offered to me, but to do construction management meant going to a university that was an hour's drive away from home and um and not near the yacht club, which at that point in my life was central to not only my income but also um to where I thought I wanted to go at that point in my life, which was sailing for a living.
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00:07:59.360And and basically sailing for a living can can go down a couple of different routes, but the one that I was focused on was the America's Cup.
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00:08:08.720And um I I did that for a couple of years while also kind of applying myself at uni.
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00:08:20.639Um and in the end we we worked out that sailing was not gonna be the um honey pot that we thought it was gonna be.
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00:08:44.879Um good experience, but great experience, and you know, got to see a lot of the world um on other people's checkbooks, which was great because we were we were professional sailors, so you know, we were being being paid, or on the times where we weren't being paid, we were at least you know flown to where we had to be and clothed and housed and fed.
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00:08:57.039So um I I then moved back to Perth um and was really serious about being in business for myself.
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00:09:26.799And I I worked for a company in Perth that um made yacht sales and Yotmas and did shade sales and structural steel and a whole bunch of other bits and pieces, and um I bought that business and ran it for a few years and um had a lot of learned a lot of hard lessons um because I was 21 when I bought that business.
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00:09:39.440And I um I learned a lot about not sticking with bad people and um the old uh slow to hire, quick to fire was something that I did in reverse.
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00:09:43.120Um uh to my detriment.
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00:10:12.159Um basically I got to a point where we we we exposed ourselves to some some really big mining projects in WA doing shade sales, and I had worked out the cash flow of these two huge projects, um, which for the for where the business was at, doing a million-dollar shade sal project was um you know represented like a 25% growth in our revenue in a six-month period.
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00:10:21.200Um, and the problem was that I cash flowed doing those projects based on one happening at the beginning of the year and one at the end.
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00:10:33.120And what happened was one got delayed and one got brought forward, and they both kind of went ahead at the same time, and that was in 2008 as the GFC was starting to bite.
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00:10:54.960And so we had a big a big problem with cash flow combined with um a kind of a dying marine market because everyone, everyone in the you know, in the marine market, it generally the bit I was in was all discretionary spending, and there was not much of that going on.
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00:11:24.320Um and the solution for me at the time was to sell the business, um which luckily someone came along and and bought it, and that resulted in me moving to South Australia because at the time I sold the business, uh my now wife finished her um chiropractic degree in Perth, and she's from South Australia, and her mum had teed her up with a a job over here straight out of uni.
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00:11:32.559I'd sold the business, so I was kind of full loose and fancy-free and probably needed a bit of a break from the pressure cooker of Perth.
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00:11:40.320Um, and I moved over here, not really sure what I was gonna do.
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00:12:10.960Um, but I had from all of the years of traveling around the world and working in various different things, I had a whole bunch of trade skills from um carpentry skills related to building boats to working with composites, welding a whole bunch of different materials together, um uh rigging, like dealing with loads and weights and all of all had all these skills, and I was like, where do I want to direct them?
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00:12:24.320And I kind of um managed to fall on my feet because my wife's father, my father-in-law, is a builder, he's retired now, but he was a hands-on builder who did everything.
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00:12:27.440And he of course said, Well, you know, what are you gonna do?
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00:12:29.919And I said, Oh, I might buy a business, I don't know, I'm gonna hang around.
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00:12:33.200He said, Why don't you come work for me while you work it out?
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00:13:13.519And I started working for him, and very quickly was like, Ah, I'm gonna retrain in the building industry and um become a builder, and um that kind of set in motion the process of getting getting the training and skills, doing the courses, and then getting my builder's license, and I um I didn't initially uh do much other than go and work for a commercial builder as a project manager, which was a job that I only got because of my prior business experience.
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00:13:32.799And obviously, I've I've like condensed condensed a lot of the business experience into a short explanation, but um they they basically said like you don't you don't yes, you've been working on the tools doing additions and renos and and one new house.
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00:13:54.960Um uh but where so you're building experience for this role is probably not as good as the other candidates, but your business experience is clear, and and and this role involves um, as they put it, catching and killing your own, so finding your own work, learning it.
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00:14:26.639And so I then went on um a really uh vertical learning curve on lots of areas, um getting getting things right the first time, um, because in commercial it's very cutthroat, and the type of work that that that company did, um there's there's very little room for making errors and letting people down, and the consequences of doing so are uh um really unpleasant.
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00:14:40.799So um I I also worked out that um the construction industry can be a soulless, lifeless, um wasteful space.
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00:15:05.600And I um I met a carpenter during during that who his business had kind of morphed from having a bunch of carpenters and doing decks and pagolas to additions and rentos, new homes, and he did everything as cost plus, and he was in a world of pain.
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00:15:17.440Um he was behind with the ATO, hadn't paid Suba for ages, was behind with his suppliers, and it was just sort of just shoestring things along.
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00:15:51.759And I I really admire my wife for accepting that I was unhappy at the commercial builder and wanted to go and save somebody else's business because I knew that I could do it, but there was a risk that you know we could end up, I could I could end up with no no no income and and even worse, have a you know a black mark against my reputation for having not done what I thought I could do.
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00:15:56.399Yeah, um the good news is that I did I took over that business.
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00:16:04.879My deal with him was that I I said, look, you've got to hand over the reins entirely, financial control, the whole life, you've got to give it up if you want me to come in.
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00:16:08.720But I'm I'm supremely confident I can save it.
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00:16:10.320And I just did the basics.
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00:16:11.679So did you become in?
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00:16:14.720Did you become business partners or you you worked for him?
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00:16:18.240God, no, no, I just I went in as an employee.
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00:16:25.440So part of my exit strategy is was always that like anyone can get a job anywhere.
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00:16:39.039So um I I didn't want to be um definitely did not want to be in partnership with with him, but I was happy to take on the personal challenge of fixing his business.
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00:16:39.519Yeah.
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00:16:42.879Um and I just did the basics.
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00:17:04.799I the first thing was he was doing all cost plus and had no system for um collating the wages for the or the hours for the week on and on which jobs, and collecting like who had bought what materials or hired equipment for which job.
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00:17:08.640So back then there was a system called Workflow Max.
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00:17:09.920So I just implemented that.
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00:17:19.039So straight away we had a very tight connection between money being spent on jobs and it being allocated to the job and same deal for hours.
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00:17:36.000And um and then also went and met all the clients and gave them contracts to sign, which was interesting because you know, part way through for some of them, they were partway through a job and they've been doing this ad hoc where they sometimes get bills and sometimes they don't.
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00:17:48.880And I kind of rocked in wearing a button-up shirt and looking official, um, and said, Oh, by the way, like I'm the general manager, and you're like, we need to like formalize this arrangement.
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00:17:53.680And here's a cost plus contract, and here's how they work, and we're gonna view you every Friday.
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00:17:59.039Payments have to be in by the close of business on a Monday, otherwise we won't be back on Tuesday.
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00:18:10.720And they were like a few of a few of them were like, Oh, it's good to see someone's like pulling stuff together, and a few, and a few of the other ones were very put out about it.
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00:18:14.480Um, but the turnaround was really rapid.
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00:18:20.799Um, and it took about took about eight months to get on top of everything and get um back up to date.
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00:18:23.680The ATO got super up to date.
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00:18:30.960Um, and so you know, all of the profit that was generated went into catching back up.
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00:18:53.279Um, and then um some of the behaviors that got the guy into trouble in the first place came back, um, which was you know seeing a big bill come in and uh because I also introduced fixed price contracts, um seeing a big bill come in and think that that was all his money.
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00:19:03.920Um and so we wound up parting ways, probably not all that amicably, because I I take I take integrity really seriously.
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00:19:07.039So like if you say you're gonna do something, do it.
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00:19:18.960Um and and if you if you don't do it, that that's a that's a really for me that is a very, very serious thing, and and that's what had happened.
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00:19:31.920And so um we parted ways and sat down with Carly and I was like, Carly's my wife, and I said, I think I'm gonna start a building company.
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00:19:51.279And um sometimes I wonder how how she how she does it, how she saved Carly's a chiropractor, she runs two clinics, a very successful business on her own, but she's certainly um probably taken some leaps of faith with me.
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00:19:53.119This one's worked out really well.
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00:20:14.799Um and yeah, we argued for about three weeks over business names while I started um you know reaching out to architects, and and at that point in time I decided that um I was gonna set up a business that specialized in building energy efficient homes and sustainable homes.
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00:20:25.200Um, and bear in mind at that point in time I didn't I knew I knew that that that was what I wanted to do, and I didn't fully understand what that actually meant.
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00:20:25.759Yeah.
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00:20:27.359Um what was the driver?
00:20:27.519 -->
00:20:28.640What was the driver for that?
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00:20:31.440Like what was the driver for going into that space?
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00:20:37.200Um a few different things.
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00:20:48.960So my old man has always been um big on self-sufficiency, and um that's across the board.
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00:20:59.920Financial self-sufficiency, finding ways to be food self-sufficient where you can, um, or having a good network of people that you can, you know, you can work together.
00:21:00.079 -->
00:21:07.119Like he's he's always been really strong on that and skills.
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00:21:23.599And that's you know, that that's the thing that I I always find really interesting, like um just as comfortable pulling an engine apart as I am roofing a house or like pick your thing.
00:21:23.759 -->
00:21:35.839Um and that that's all because of dad just going, have a go at doing everything and you know, and go and hang out with people that specialize in the things and and and learn about it.
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00:21:44.160So that yeah, like there's there's heaps of heaps of those things where uh nowadays I'm really grateful when something goes wrong and we're a long way from help.
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00:21:50.799I'm like, thank god I'm really self-sufficient because I can I'll fix this and make that work, and we can yeah.
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00:22:03.599So um, and you know, and as an aside, dad travels around the world now building earth ships, which is the hardcore sustainable end that's awesome energy efficiency and sustainability.
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00:22:05.119I'm gonna have to catch up with your old boy.
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00:22:09.200I I watch so many YouTube on Earth ships and that, I think they're amazing.
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00:22:10.079Yeah.
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00:22:58.079So um he's just always drilled that into me, and then the um the carpenter that morphed into a builder whose business I ran for a bit, he he was um really interested in sustainability, and um so there was a there was a bit more of an introduction there as well, and it just to me made a lot of sense because I'd I'd also done in the in the time that I spent doing commercial projects, um, a lot of time in just the slap it up, get it done cheap as you can, and it just didn't feel it didn't feel right.
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00:23:02.000Um and it's difficult to describe.
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00:23:15.839Like I like I enjoyed the relationship part of commercial, but I I yeah, I just never felt like I was leaving a positive impact behind with some of the building practices.
00:23:16.160 -->
00:23:23.440Um so that's probably the best summation I can give you as to why we why I wanted to go down that road.
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00:23:24.640Um I think it's awesome.
00:23:24.960 -->
00:23:26.319Yeah, I started the business.
00:23:26.640 -->
00:23:34.240It says it's I think it says a lot, like that um like knowing that background and where you've come from and all the stuff you've been through, and then your reasoning why.
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00:23:36.400Um I think that says a lot.
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00:23:40.480And that's I don't know, it's a there's a lot of marketing in that for your building company.
00:23:42.240 -->
00:23:58.960Um and and I the other thing too is that I um you know coming up with the why for Enduro Builders of we're here to improve the quality, health, and comfort of houses in South Australia.
00:23:59.759 -->
00:24:07.920That was really easy for me to come up with as like our mission statement.
00:24:08.160 -->
00:24:12.559Um and and it's stuck, it hasn't changed.
00:24:12.720 -->
00:24:20.160Um the only the only tweak to it is that we we included comfort and health in it about two years ago.
00:24:20.640 -->
00:24:26.000Um because I was like, well, we're do yeah, we are doing more than just quality.
00:24:26.640 -->
00:24:35.279Um and and it was important to recognize that for new staff coming in so that they they they grasped it straight away.
00:24:35.519 -->
00:24:48.400Um so I like I was saying, I started off with this focus on I mean a focus on working with architects and building architect design houses.
00:24:48.960 -->
00:25:01.519Um that for me anyway didn't gel very well with um expanding my business.
00:25:01.759 -->
00:25:20.640Um the way it played out for me was that I um started off with with a few architect design projects and then started getting I was driving a lot of marketing, which meant that a lot of the leaves were coming directly to me.
00:25:20.799 -->
00:25:35.680And then I was I had a really good system for taking them to um one of the three architects that I was working with and kind of teeing them up and then leaving them um to do the design.
00:25:35.759 -->
00:25:46.799And the deal was to you know, do a concept, show it to me so I can check it for pricing, then we'll show it to the client, and and then we'll you know, from there we'll work backwards and forwards to close up the gap.
00:25:47.039 -->
00:25:55.920Um so not that dissimilar to what I understand your pack process to be, yeah, just slightly slightly differently.
00:25:56.160 -->
00:26:21.200But we um we got a way into that where there were a few misses where the architect showed the plans to the client before they'd spoken to me and they were way over budget, and then that architect blamed me for it being over budget, which makes no sense at all.
00:26:21.279 -->
00:26:27.839But that's that's how and I'm sure lots of builders just heard that sentence and they're like, Yeah, that that's happened to me before too.
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00:26:48.160So, and then it started to become clear that the volume of work I had coming through just the architects just couldn't keep that they let me rephrase that, they didn't want to keep up with it because I was really strict about I need to see the plans before you show them to the client.
00:26:48.400 -->
00:27:03.279We need to have this level of communication about cost, and and I understand from their point of view, I was probably throwing sand and gravel into the well-oiled, their well-oiled machine.
00:27:03.759 -->
00:27:08.799And and so then I started, then I had a project where I was like, you know what, I'll design it.
00:27:09.119 -->
00:27:15.200Because all of the work that I that Carly and I do um on the side, I was designing anyway.
00:27:15.440 -->
00:27:34.400So we did we did one job um with me designing, and I was like, this was a well-oiled machine, everything worked really well, and so then I hired a building designer and um and we just we just tapered out our architectural projects.
00:27:34.559 -->
00:27:45.920Um and we do still work with architects, but we have a really um clearly defined set of guardrails that we that we work within.
00:27:46.160 -->
00:27:55.359Um and we we've we've learned to make it work, but our primary thing is design and build.
00:27:55.519 -->
00:28:09.279And and every time we do an architect-designed project where they they come to us with the concept already done, we haven't had any that we've costed up and they've you know just landed on the budget, and it's all been sweet.
00:28:09.920 -->
00:28:18.240There's always been a lot of work to close close the gap, either by the client raising their budget or by changing the plans.
00:28:18.319 -->
00:28:23.279And we found that that's um it's unpleasant for everyone.
00:28:23.440 -->
00:28:40.799Like it's it's unpleasant having to ring the client and say, Hey, like I know that you've had a QS say this, and you've had an architect say this, and you've had someone else say this, and you know, and maybe even other builders give lower prices, but I we really think this is gonna cost this much money.
00:28:41.119 -->
00:28:45.519Um, and and then of course we follow through and actually prove that.
00:28:45.920 -->
00:28:58.319Um it's a really shame that that whole process is so broken because a lot of great projects don't go ahead because that process doesn't architects, yeah.
00:28:58.799 -->
00:29:00.480And there's a lot of great architects.
00:29:00.559 -->
00:29:19.599Like, I don't want to be misconstrued as bashing the architects because there are a couple that we do work with who umes that we used to send work to, and we've just worked out that it works better if they come to us and say, Hey, we've got this job that's a perfect fit for you guys.
00:29:19.839 -->
00:29:31.200Um, and they are like one of them we we go and resolve building details because because we use Revit and they use Revit, which is the design software.
00:29:31.440 -->
00:29:46.079Um I go and sit in their office, and sometimes I drive, sometimes they drive, and and we we develop, we've worked out that that's the quickest way to get all of the things like one of us drafts and the rest of us talk.
00:29:46.319 -->
00:29:54.079Um, and so for me, that is real collaboration because I'm we're I'm literally there doing some of the drawing work.
00:29:54.400 -->
00:29:59.920Um, so they work really well, but that my experience has been that they're fewer.
00:30:00.160 -->
00:30:01.279And far between.
00:30:02.960 -->
00:30:20.799And we alongside of that, I've really focused on like I want to build more homes so that there are more high-quality, comfortable, healthy homes in South Australia.
00:30:21.200 -->
00:30:23.680And to do that, I need to grow.
00:30:24.240 -->
00:30:31.920And part of that is making it more economical to build homes that actually perform and are actually safe to live in.
00:30:32.880 -->
00:30:37.519Which means that you know they're not they're thermal bridge-free, so they're not going to have mold growth.
00:30:37.680 -->
00:30:43.200The um air quality has been considered in the design and the specification.
00:30:43.920 -->
00:30:54.640And um we have really worked hard to systemise how we build to bring the cost down of doing it.
00:30:55.119 -->
00:31:11.440Yes, it costs more to build um a house with us than go to a volume builder, but quite often we will be the same or a lower price than a custom home quote comparison.
00:31:12.240 -->
00:31:14.000We've had a couple of instances.
00:31:14.400 -->
00:31:26.160Well, on that subject, because that was one of my questions, because I noticed, like in a lot of your stuff on Instagram and stuff that you talk about, like it's like you're always selling your standard, and that's sort of what you're talking about now.
00:31:26.400 -->
00:31:30.960But a lot of builders and and even tradies always use the cost barrier.
00:31:31.119 -->
00:31:35.440Oh, I I can't do that because I won't get another job or people won't pay for it.
00:31:35.599 -->
00:31:45.279But um, my building business is very much the same as yours, like we set our standards, and if if people don't want to build to our standards, then they don't build with us.
00:31:45.519 -->
00:31:51.680So, can you use like just a little bit of insight into I guess how your brain feels or works when it comes to that?
00:31:51.839 -->
00:32:03.920Because I think if every builder set their own standard and just concentrate on selling that to their clients, straight away we're gonna get better homes in Australia, yeah.
00:32:04.160 -->
00:32:09.680Well, and and uh an easier way for clients to compare.
00:32:10.079 -->
00:32:14.559So the um where do I start?
00:32:14.720 -->
00:32:39.200I mean, it it's an awful lot of work, um, and it has taken, I would say, this year is the first year that we really had everything like pulled together nicely with all our like standard details, standard drawings, um, and and a lot of our written like systems and processes for how the houses actually go together.
00:32:39.440 -->
00:32:45.039Um, and part of that's been because those details get shared with Climature clients as well.
00:32:45.200 -->
00:32:53.279And like we our detail pages include a little methodology of like we would do this bit, then this bit, then this bit, then this bit, then this bit.
00:32:53.839 -->
00:33:00.240And um we've had to do that to support the growth of the business.
00:33:00.319 -->
00:33:08.960Because as I bring in a new site manager, they they you know they come from the regular paradigm.
00:33:09.359 -->
00:33:22.240And um, and they come that you know, we find nowadays that when we put out a job out, the people that are applying by and large are they're applying because they're like we've been usually in that cover letter.
00:33:22.319 -->
00:33:26.640It's like I've been watching you guys for years, I've been waiting for the opportunity to come up.
00:33:26.799 -->
00:33:28.960So that and that's really flattering.
00:33:29.119 -->
00:33:40.559I've always I've always like I can't believe people like you know, I mean it's what it's hard because it's always been one of my goals to not only do the housing bit, but to be an employer of choice.
00:33:40.960 -->
00:34:02.720Um, and it means that they come in wanting to be here, that we then we then have the obligation to um train them correctly and put them through a very much like vertical learning curve on this is how the houses go together, which meant documenting it.
00:34:02.960 -->
00:34:47.760Um and I think I would say that it's really clear to me now why lots of builders um don't do that because the amount of work is colossal, and and we've we've really only done it because I've got an awesome team who are all invested in what we do and and have been invested in the you know, me saying blocked part of your um weekly diary needs to have time blocked in it for this development work that that we're doing, building out the um documentation assets of the business.
00:34:48.719 -->
00:34:55.920Um and and people have been really holding that time as sacred as we hold planning time in everyone's diaries.
00:34:56.559 -->
00:35:05.840Um but it's it's been yeah, and it and it's it's one that I'll admit I chose not to keep track of what it's costing.
00:35:06.239 -->
00:35:11.599Um because I'm like, this is setting us up for the next 30 years or beyond.
00:35:11.840 -->
00:35:14.880Yeah, it it definitely has to be got the detail.
00:35:15.039 -->
00:35:17.199Yeah, it's gotta be that, yeah.
00:35:17.760 -->
00:35:32.480Yeah, like I and and look, you know, we share that stuff with Climate Shore clients, so you know there's um there's value, the value that we've put into it, we're gonna um we're sharing with anyone that is interested.
00:35:32.719 -->
00:35:53.920Yeah, but it's it's I think it's important for builders to realize that and like you don't they don't have to go as far as like you and I have with developing documents and specifications and things, but um you can you can make it as simple as I want to like Proclimber is a standard on all my jobs, or uh we do cavity button systems on all our jobs, or we use like whatever it is.
00:35:54.000 -->
00:35:57.599Like every every builder can uh build better.
00:35:57.760 -->
00:36:01.039Um, but I just hear too often it's all based on price.
00:36:01.119 -->
00:36:07.039Like so many builders think, oh, I can't do that because I can't charge more because I won't get more work.
00:36:07.360 -->
00:36:10.159But um yeah, I think it's a education.
00:36:10.320 -->
00:36:12.159That's that's what I see.
00:36:12.880 -->
00:36:46.480Um yeah, I just realized I didn't really answer your question about about that, but I I put it down to education, and and I've I um I've always found that when when we've taken the time to explain why something is costing more and what goes into it to to to cause the cost increase, and then what the benefit is, um you you get a much more positive response from the client.
00:36:46.880 -->
00:37:02.000And and the thing I'd say to builders is have a think about all the times you've talked them into um an idea that you had about a finish or how something was gonna look that cost more than they did, and the client agreed to it.
00:37:02.159 -->
00:37:08.639You just gotta apply the exact same logic to have you thought about like why don't we do under slab insulation?
00:37:08.719 -->
00:37:14.480Because you're building a house in the bottom of a valley in the in the hills, you know, like it's gonna be cold.
00:37:14.559 -->
00:37:16.000So let's do under slab.
00:37:16.079 -->
00:37:17.760Yeah, it's gonna cost you 15 grand.
00:37:18.559 -->
00:37:24.719But the benefit is that during winter your feet will be warm, your house will stay warmer, etc.
00:37:24.960 -->
00:37:25.199etc.
00:37:26.000 -->
00:37:39.440Um and I find I I've just never found a situation where um clients haven't found a way to make it make it work for them.
00:37:39.760 -->
00:37:47.599Um and under underpinning that though is that we have some minimums, you know, we won't do single glazing, for instance.
00:37:47.840 -->
00:37:54.159We won't do aluminium frames unless they have a high quality thermal break.
00:37:54.719 -->
00:38:05.679Um so things like that too, uh I find you you get them out of the way early on in the conversation with a client and they choose to either go with you or not.
00:38:05.840 -->
00:38:22.639Um and it's the scariest thing, like I'm sure you've done it, where you you turn a client away because because you're they might they might tick 25 of the 30 boxes, um, or 29 of the 30 boxes, and then that last box, you're like, well no, that's it, that's our minimum.
00:38:22.960 -->
00:38:26.400Um, and you always go, Oh, what have I done?
00:38:26.559 -->
00:38:28.960You know, are we broke next week?
00:38:29.119 -->
00:38:32.239I don't know, that's that's kind of the pit that I go in every time.
00:38:32.400 -->
00:38:35.840Um, in spite of 10 years of it never going wrong.
00:38:36.079 -->
00:38:39.280Um I think uh every time there's always someone else.
00:38:39.519 -->
00:38:40.239Exactly, mate.
00:38:40.400 -->
00:38:40.719Exactly.
00:38:40.800 -->
00:38:43.039Like the one door shuts, three doors open.
00:38:43.119 -->
00:38:48.559So um I'm gonna get started asking a few of my questions because uh otherwise we're gonna be here all night.
00:38:48.639 -->
00:38:50.400But sorry, cut me off.
00:38:50.559 -->
00:38:50.960No, that's good.
00:38:51.440 -->
00:38:52.800Cut me off, you upset me.
00:38:52.960 -->
00:38:56.320You're really um you're sharing good quality information, so I really appreciate it.
00:38:56.400 -->
00:39:04.880But um one of the videos you've got on your Instagram, which I which I like, is uh you talk about four myths that builders are stuck in.
00:39:05.119 -->
00:39:08.880Like if you if you're if you're choosing a build that's got these four myths, don't build with them.
00:39:09.119 -->
00:39:11.280Um that's the way I sort of take it.
00:39:11.360 -->
00:39:15.760Like, and you and you talk about builders being stuck in like still building homes the way they were in the 80s.
00:39:15.920 -->
00:39:18.239Can you just talk us through that a little bit?
00:39:19.840 -->
00:39:20.480Yep.
00:39:20.880 -->
00:39:39.599Um I'm trying to remember what the what the the four myths were because when I uh some of those articles I I write, they they take a year or so to come out into the um into the thing by which time we've we've completely I'm like, yes, I remember that.
00:39:39.920 -->
00:39:42.079Just remind me of the detail again.
00:39:42.239 -->
00:39:47.119Uh the four myths, so air airtight construction creates mold.
00:39:47.840 -->
00:40:48.000So that's um that's a it's a myth because if you just make a house airtight and you still put aluminium frames and single glazing, and you don't think about um thermal bridge in your wall frames, particularly junctions on corners and where internal walls meet external walls, um then all that happens in an airtight house is obviously the the moisture load inside the house goes up because it's not it's not finding its way out through all of the gaps and holes, and um it can increase the likelihood of um mold occurring, but that doesn't mean that an airtight home creates mold, it's an airtight home with lots of thermal bridges increases your chance of having mold.
00:40:48.159 -->
00:41:01.760And and so there's like a there's a stepped understanding that you that to go through, um which which if you're if you haven't taken the time to learn about it, then it's very quick and easy to go.
00:41:02.000 -->
00:41:10.320No, no, airtight homes are all horrible, they're called you know mold problems, and you you don't want to have an airtight home, you want to you want to let the house breathe.
00:41:10.800 -->
00:41:17.039Um and that I could go on for hours about airtight, but I'll leave it there.
00:41:17.280 -->
00:41:21.760Um timber isn't as durable as concrete or brick.
00:41:22.239 -->
00:41:32.960So timber if it is uh allowed to get wet all the time, um, is not a very durable product.
00:41:33.360 -->
00:41:39.039Uh because it can um often it'll grow mold, but it'll also rot.
00:41:39.519 -->
00:41:47.119Um and and also you know, wet timber for things like lintels over doorways, it'll sag.
00:41:47.840 -->
00:42:02.800So um a lot of people, a lot of homeowners go, oh I want you know brick and concrete because that the solid materials that aren't going anywhere.
00:42:03.119 -->
00:42:26.559And while that while that has some truth to it, um you can have situations, you know, if brick gets wet, there's plenty of plenty of homes, plenty of examples um of brick that has been um wet without being able to dry, and eventually it's like the brick starts to break down and frets away.
00:42:26.639 -->
00:42:29.920And and and a similar thing can happen with concrete.
00:42:30.159 -->
00:42:50.960You can also have concrete in uh corrosion zones where they've they've poured 20 mpa instead of following the engineers and pouring 32 if you're in the corrosion zone, um, or even 40 in some cases, and and that does happen, and then the salt gets into the concrete, blows out the rio, blows out the concrete.
00:42:51.119 -->
00:43:04.800Um, so the the other thing is with timber, if you keep timber structures dry, then you will not have a problem with timber over the long haul.
00:43:05.119 -->
00:43:10.960And the the issue is there's been like these step changes.
00:43:11.039 -->
00:43:15.840So hundreds of years ago, all the timber buildings they were they were completely breathable.
00:43:16.000 -->
00:43:18.480There was very little airtightness to anything.
00:43:18.719 -->
00:43:30.239Then we started kind of improving building materials, and and clients started asking for, you know, or you know, architects would come up with different building materials.
00:43:30.400 -->
00:43:38.800I'm talking about architects that are employed by manufacturers that would come up with different building materials and finishes and looks.
00:43:39.360 -->
00:44:08.239And that then resulted in you know lots of materials that were tight fitting and led to more slightly more airtight homes and so on and so forth until we got to a point where we are right now where there's a lot of accidental airtightness occurring with thermal bridging without consideration to how the timber is going to keep drying out, and then the timber gets wet, and then you have problems, and then timber gets blamed.
00:44:08.400 -->
00:44:12.079Yeah, but it's not actually the timber, it's how you're using it.
00:44:12.400 -->
00:44:13.679I think like that.
00:44:14.000 -->
00:44:24.639Um I think that covers a lot of problems in our industry, mate, because a lot of the problems I see aren't the product or the material, it's just simply the installation.
00:44:24.719 -->
00:44:31.679Like people haven't taken the time to understand the material and execute it and install it correctly, um, which leads to problems.
00:44:31.920 -->
00:44:33.599Or read the manual, yeah.
00:44:33.840 -->
00:44:44.480Yeah, um, I'm one of those boring guys, you know, when you get something new and you open it up and the manual falls out, and lots of people will just keep like trying to cobble it together or make it work or whatever it is.
00:44:44.639 -->
00:44:52.559I'm one of those boring guys that puts whatever it is to one side and reads the manual, um, which I got from my mother.
00:44:53.199 -->
00:45:08.880But um I am often um amazed just with ProClimber stuff when we send the manual when someone orders for the first time, and we always offer to go and meet on site and go through it.
00:45:09.360 -->
00:45:17.440And sometimes those manuals go to the builder, and then we rock up on site and meet the carpenter, and we say, Oh, have you read the manual?
00:45:17.840 -->
00:45:24.079And most times they've been sent it, but occasionally they haven't.
00:45:24.559 -->
00:45:36.320And that always makes me go, I wonder what would have happened if we had not offered to come and do the on-site in-person training.
00:45:36.719 -->
00:45:53.920Um, and then and then, of course, I extrapolate that straight away to wonder what happens when you get presented with another new product that's just sold through a hardware store where there isn't as much vested interest necessarily from the from the supplier.
00:45:54.559 -->
00:46:20.960Um and it's it's why one of our core things in our in our process when we're building is if we're using a product that we've not used before, it's like the manual has to be printed and put on site, and two copies, one that lives on site, one that gets given to the trade, and and there's like a toolbox talk at the beginning of installing this.
00:46:21.039 -->
00:46:22.480Like, what do we need?
00:46:22.639 -->
00:46:37.280Yeah, we've got everything we need, how's it meant to go on, or all of that stuff, and that's that's preceded it at design stage as well to make sure that that any design details try to try to cover as much of the manual as possible.
00:46:37.760 -->
00:46:42.800Um, we do that same it's a we do the exact same mate big hole in the market, yeah.
00:46:42.880 -->
00:46:57.280And like again, it comes back to I guess people not understanding their numbers and always rushing to try and make a dollar and stuff, but like taking that time out to print those documents, run through it with your team, have a site toolbox talk, everyone get on the same page about it.
00:46:57.360 -->
00:47:00.559Like, yes, it's a little bit of time, it's the cheapest time, yeah.
00:47:00.719 -->
00:47:05.599It is the cheapest time, it's a yeah, well it's a lot a lot cheaper than doing things twice.
00:47:06.800 -->
00:47:07.599Absolutely.
00:47:07.760 -->
00:47:25.760Like, I I have this saying that it goes it's in our manual about that the the cheapest time to fix a problem in construction is the moment you discover it, and and the bigger time difference between you discovering it and fixing it, the more expensive it gets.
00:47:25.920 -->
00:47:36.960Yeah, because that I've just never found found it to be the case where you can just leave something that you notice till later and it not be significantly more expensive.
00:47:37.199 -->
00:47:54.239Well that um that's a good segue because it ties into another question I had for you, which was um like you talk a lot about building uh more durable and more sustainably is actually more financially um is a better financial decision for clients and trying to choose a cheapest build.
00:47:54.480 -->
00:47:55.679Like talk to us about that.
00:47:58.239 -->
00:48:07.920Um talk about from the construction side first, and then we'll talk about longevity and and just build experience.
00:48:08.239 -->
00:48:30.719Um construction-wise, you have to you have to all of this is underpinned by making sure you're working with a builder who either really knows their stuff about all of the materials or has a good robust system for going and learning about the materials if you're the if they're using something they've not touched before.
00:48:31.039 -->
00:49:21.119Um but if you get the right choice and mix of materials installed correctly and the right um amount of time gets put into working out how they'll go together on site and making sure that all of the various things that manufacturers require for their products actually can gel together because there's a lot of cases where to comply with one manufacturer's requirements, you almost can't can't you know comply with the others, and then what needs to happen then is a discussion between the two suppliers, and all of that takes time, and I I like I get it, and it's why it's why we developed a lot of our standard details because it makes us a lot easier, it makes it a lot easier to go.
00:49:21.360 -->
00:49:24.320Can we make this work in our standard detail?
00:49:24.800 -->
00:49:38.800And then if if it's almost works, but not quite, we just amend the standard detail and then send it to the supplier and say, like, would you support this on a warranty case, like, or are there any major problems, or whatever it is.
00:49:39.039 -->
00:50:10.079Um, and it's also about picking materials that you know uh have really good track records for last ability, and and I know that um there are some really new materials that have come out that uh we've had clients that really wanted to use them, and we've provided alternatives that uh have a have that have a track record as opposed to something that doesn't.
00:50:10.159 -->
00:50:19.199So I'm not saying the material might be totally fine, it might last might outlast what what we're using, but I've my degree of confidence is really high.
00:50:19.360 -->
00:50:32.639So we'll talk that through the client and sort of say, you know, if you if you go with this type of clouding, I can really stamp my name on it and know that in eight or ninety years' time it should still be there looking just as good.
00:50:33.039 -->
00:50:47.920Um but the product you want to use, like you know, it's only been it's only been around for 10 or so years in Australia, and um, it's not quite long enough to really be confident.
00:50:48.320 -->
00:50:50.639Um these days, mate, yeah.
00:50:51.280 -->
00:50:58.639There's plenty of products that you get put on put in front of you that only just put off the press, like it's hard to exactly.
00:50:58.880 -->
00:51:10.880So yeah, and like the um the the interesting one for me at the moment is the aluminium cladding with um you know all the wood textures put on two of them.
00:51:11.360 -->
00:51:21.039Um I'm I'm yeah, and look, I admit to clients like, look, there are some areas where I can actually be a bit old school about about my approach.
00:51:21.280 -->
00:51:35.360And the you know, aluminium has a lot of embodied energy, um and and those um uh whatever it is, that like a vinyl coating, I think, that they put on there to give the wood grain look.
00:51:35.679 -->
00:51:48.239Um there's there's obviously question marks about what happens at end of life and and what happens when you essentially melt it down, what happens to the vinyl, like how does how do you separate it and all that.
00:51:48.480 -->
00:52:40.159So um then, of course, there's there's the flow on of when you're building really high performance homes where you have to do ventilated cavities and you are doing a whole bunch of building details properly from the get-go, it it requires more time and thought on your methodology before you start building, which then flows through to your schedule because obviously your methodology um very quickly lines up which trades come in at what times, and and you need to plan all of that out, um, particularly for trades who um you know need to know how many times they're going to be coming to site so that they can get their course right.
00:52:40.400 -->
00:52:54.159Um and for a homeowner, what that means is is that you are more likely to be dealing with a builder who has a solid plan for starting on a date and finishing on a date.
00:52:54.320 -->
00:53:08.559And what we do at Enduro is we we don't give our clients the building contract until we've finalized all the specs and provided them with the schedule, which we share through an online project management system.
00:53:09.039 -->
00:53:22.480Um and we say to them, you know, if you if you look through the schedule, you'll see where we put slack times in, and obviously, like jobs in winter, we'll chuck a big slack time in the center of the the winter period.
00:53:22.719 -->
00:53:25.360Um that covers us for rain.
00:53:25.840 -->
00:53:41.440Um and we and we say to clients, like, this is showing all the steps and our planned timelines for them, and you will notice that things will move around as we go, but what won't move is that that handover day.
00:53:41.679 -->
00:53:49.760Um and and you'll notice that there are those slack times, and you'll probably watch them get reduced if something gets delayed.
00:53:50.000 -->
00:53:55.599Um but it'll it'll never um we're never gonna hand over late.
00:53:55.920 -->
00:53:59.280And we we managed to get through COVID.
00:53:59.440 -->
00:54:03.119We only had um two projects that handed over late.
00:54:03.280 -->
00:54:09.440Um, and and both of them are caused by weather, not by not not by material stuff.
00:54:09.679 -->
00:54:10.000Yeah.
00:54:10.159 -->
00:54:23.119And I think when that's the thing, when you go to the when you I think people really don't understand when they go to a builder that's put a lot of time and effort into their business and their systems, their structure, um, it isn't cheaper in the long run.
00:54:23.360 -->
00:54:32.159Like everything's more efficient, it's a better process, it's a better experience, you get a better product, your product's gonna last longer, uh, rather than a builder that's when you move in on time, yeah.
00:54:32.320 -->
00:54:37.679You're not you're not left renting a house for longer than you expected or having to move around.
00:54:37.760 -->
00:54:44.960And we we we had a project that we sometimes I feel like we didn't even really get a look in.
00:54:45.039 -->
00:54:46.239We priced it.
00:54:46.400 -->
00:55:09.840Um, but the homeowners wanted to go with the builder that their real estate agent recommended, and it was a high-performance home with with uh proclamer membranes inside and out, so it's almost like we would build a certified passive house, but it wasn't a certified pass-about, and it was on a really difficult site.
00:55:10.079 -->
00:55:22.559Um, and because of the house including heat recovery ventilation, that there's only one guy in Adelaide putting heat recovery ventilation in.
00:55:22.880 -->
00:55:29.119So um I've heard about how that project's going, and it's still not done.
00:55:29.440 -->
00:55:32.480And that was back in 2021.
00:55:32.800 -->
00:55:33.679Holy early.
00:55:34.159 -->
00:55:48.320And yeah, and and I'm like, what that should be like living in those those people, uh, you know, they're they're elderly, so they things happening fast really matters.
00:55:48.559 -->
00:55:57.360Um, and yeah, it's still not done, and that's got four years now, so for for what should have been about a 14-month build.
00:55:57.679 -->
00:56:09.920Yeah, but at the time it's hard to uh hard to tell people, but um, we'll cross over into a little few questions that well definitely to do with building, but also um the climate shore party or or climate shore business as well.
00:56:10.079 -->
00:56:25.920But um the th the notes I've written down that I want to ask you questions about, it's it's probably more to get other builders thinking because um I know just from the questions I get on my socials and the stories that I do on from my building sites, uh, these questions come up all the time.
00:56:26.000 -->
00:56:29.920And so I I I talk a lot now about all all cladding leaks.
00:56:30.159 -->
00:56:34.960I know you've got some blog posts on your um page about it as well.
00:56:35.440 -->
00:56:49.360And look, I I I definitely was I guess taught through my apprenticeship and my early years as a contractor, like um the the bit the my bosses would always drive into me, like, get that tight, like this is what seals are building up.
00:56:49.440 -->
00:56:54.000And reality is it's not like water gets in in all sorts of places.
00:56:54.159 -->
00:57:05.760So just run us through your thoughts on that a little bit because I think it's an eye-opener for a lot of builders, like they don't understand how important that building wrap um is, yeah, yeah.
00:57:06.079 -->
00:57:10.559The um where to start?
00:57:11.599 -->
00:57:42.559So we we start at the end, so putting on a high-quality building membrane, we're and I obviously have a strong bias towards uh proclamer membranes because I'm a distributor, um uh is is the number one way to protect your building um from getting moisture inside it, and and most critically protecting the timber and the insulation from getting wet.
00:57:42.880 -->
00:57:50.320Um all like you said, like all claddings wind up leaking somewhere.
00:57:50.559 -->
00:57:54.239Um and even brick is porous.
00:57:54.719 -->
00:58:10.159And you can um, and there's plenty of plenty of examples, and you don't have to google too hard to find um you know pictures of the back of brick walls that are really wet that have been facing the weather.
00:58:10.400 -->
00:58:24.320Um and that's um you know, brick is regarded as like certainly to a public that um hasn't had any education in other options.
00:58:24.400 -->
00:58:28.000And I grew up in WA where everything is double brick.
00:58:28.159 -->
00:58:41.679Um while you're on the brick, like it there is so many houses getting built here in Brisbane, uh more so by volume builders that uh just smashing up the brick facades and then they're painting it.
00:58:41.920 -->
00:58:43.840And like that, that to me is even worse.
00:58:44.000 -->
00:58:47.920Like the then then when the wood, when the water does get through, it's trapped.
00:58:48.000 -->
00:58:58.800And then people wonder why people wonder why they're living in two-year-old houses and you you look at it in certain elevations of the house, it just it's just all black and mouldy and yeah.
00:58:59.199 -->
00:59:00.800Yeah, yeah.
00:59:01.039 -->
00:59:12.559And you have the problem in the tropics of the mould forms on the outside more often than not, because because you you're you're um yeah, you're more humid on the outside than on the inside.
00:59:12.719 -->
00:59:58.719Yeah, um, and and a yeah, building with a high-quality building membrane that's actually waterproof, and then putting um a ventilated cavity and then your clouding on is um like for me, it started off about building performance and airtightness, and then as soon as I started learning about how proclamer membranes worked, and um how building science works, I suddenly went putting these membranes on is an insurance policy against uh claims for leakage and and buildings getting wet on the inside.
00:59:59.440 -->
01:00:08.320Um And it's and it is a it's a layer of defense against any failings in your in your clouding install.
01:00:09.119 -->
01:00:16.239Um which you know they things things can happen um years down the track.
01:00:16.559 -->
01:00:17.760Very unusual.
01:00:18.159 -->
01:00:39.440But um like you say, and uh I've also had the opposite argument from a couple of builders, they're like, yeah, but you're creating this thing with ventilated cavities and you're putting a vent at the top and a vent at the bottom, and what stops rain hitting the ground and bouncing up into the bottom of your cavity, or when it's really rainy having water go in, I'm like, but the whole thing drains.
01:00:39.599 -->
01:00:54.639I said, even if you high pressure hose the side of the house and all water goes up into that that vent strip that we've put in where the thinking about a particular case where the weather tech's clouding and an Eve coming in, and then a little vent strip in between.
01:00:54.719 -->
01:01:12.880Yeah, and they're like if I'm high pressure hosing that the waters goes up, and I said, Yeah, it goes up, lands on what is almost a completely waterproof building membrane that is actively pushing moisture to the outside and it's in a ventilated cavity, and any excess water is going to run down that membrane and drop out the bottom onto the ground.
01:01:13.039 -->
01:01:14.559I said, You're far better off.
01:01:14.719 -->
01:01:25.920I said, What if you're high pressure hosing that house and there is no vent strip and there's a gap in the clouding somewhere, and that water is going straight into your insulation.
01:01:26.320 -->
01:01:27.760You tell me what's worse.
01:01:28.000 -->
01:01:40.480Well, it it's more than likely going onto a shitty old foil black paper and there's no ceiling around windows, and it's it's eventually rotting out your uh your your studs around your windows and those types of things.
01:01:40.639 -->
01:01:47.440But um I think and that's that where I that's where I feel there needs to be more education.
01:01:47.599 -->
01:02:01.360Like um, I feel like a lot of builders they're not understanding how the house performs, or and and that's why they they don't maybe put so much time into understanding why they need to be doing claddings better and vented cavities and using better building wraps.
01:02:01.760 -->
01:02:07.840But um yeah, like how does it and that's and that's why I look at it from the insurance perspective.
01:02:08.800 -->
01:02:41.360Um because if it you know if you're using a building membrane and putting a ventilated cavity in, you're you're you're providing yourself as a builder with insurance from potential problems, and at the same time giving your owner, your homeowner, a a better outcome and um insulation that's protected from wind washing, which which is uh you know we've talked about water a lot, but there's also the the in making the insulation work.
01:02:41.599 -->
01:02:50.000Yeah, and I think I don't know, you you would know a lot more than I do um with the building science stuff, but I I feel like it's very different up here to down there.
01:02:50.079 -->
01:03:02.400Like your um your condensation, like you're dealing with nine times a lot of time cold outside and warmer inside, whereas up here we're dealing with quite warm outside and then everyone running the air conditioning inside.
01:03:02.559 -->
01:03:08.159So like you need to understand how all that's um affecting how your house is.
01:03:09.440 -->
01:03:11.599Sorry, yeah, yeah.
01:03:11.679 -->
01:03:36.960Well, how it's different, and and it um yeah, like in in a lot of the tropical areas, we use uh a membrane that has a higher SD value, which is essentially means that it um less moisture pass through slower because the moisture load in the tropics because it's more humid is is higher, so you need to have more resistance to moisture passing through.
01:03:37.440 -->
01:03:57.119Um and you also have to be aware of like a thermal bridge causes the same amount of drama in a cooler climate as it does in a hot climate, it's just that the the direction is often reversed.
01:03:58.079 -->
01:04:01.599Yeah, yeah, there's so much there's there's mate, there is so much to know.
01:04:01.679 -->
01:04:03.039Like I said, we could go on for hours.
01:04:03.119 -->
01:04:09.599The um one one more I'd really like to like building science is I think something that people really need to educate themselves more on.
01:04:09.679 -->
01:04:13.280Like I know I've I spent hours online, I've done a few online courses and stuff.
01:04:13.360 -->
01:04:20.559Um, and I'd like you and I are well you guys more are working on something at the moment next year, which I think is pretty exciting.
01:04:20.800 -->
01:04:32.400Um, if anyone's on the level up email list, um you've all been sent an email this or last week, I think, uh, with opportunity to register for the event that Climate Shore is putting on, so make sure you check that out.
01:04:32.480 -->
01:04:34.000Uh, do you want to give that a plug, mate?
01:04:34.079 -->
01:04:37.920While we're on here, yeah, yeah, I'd love to.
01:04:38.000 -->
01:04:51.599That's so we it all started with um just being really keen about doing it and and getting uh one particular building scientist uh over here.
01:04:52.559 -->
01:04:59.280Um and yeah, Joe, I'm gonna butcher his surname, Lutzbrick, I think it is.
01:04:59.519 -->
01:05:07.039Um he he is basically regarded as the godfather of building science in the world.
01:05:07.280 -->
01:05:25.679Um and we're um setting up to run a two-day event where we'll we'll have um guys like him talking about the the building science and the um with a with a half of a link to the practical side.
01:05:26.000 -->
01:05:57.119And then Jess is really twisting my arm to um talk about the practical side and and how you know how you actually go about delivering this stuff on on site and um and how we go about training our trades and and bringing new trades um up to speed as well as bringing new um incoming staff up to speed with with the knowledge they need to to make sure that the standards that we have don't slip.
01:05:57.440 -->
01:06:00.000Yeah, no, it's um yeah, it'll be a great event.
01:06:00.239 -->
01:06:01.840Yeah, I'm really excited and looking forward to it.
01:06:01.920 -->
01:06:09.280So um yeah, look, if you're not on the uh level up mailing list yet, make sure you um go to the website and register on there, and um, we can always flick your email again.
01:06:09.519 -->
01:06:13.519Otherwise, reach out to the guys at Climate Shore and they'll um they'll flick you all the details so you can register.
01:06:13.599 -->
01:06:19.039It's it's a bit of an invite only, so unless you've got an email or you know about it, you uh you won't be able to be there.
01:06:19.119 -->
01:06:35.440But um mate, just another one I'd really like to touch on quickly, uh if we can before we get out of here, is um, and I know you've got some blog posts on your uh website about this as well, but everyone bags out uh like anticon and roof blanket.
01:06:35.519 -->
01:06:42.239Like, so how do you know what's what to use, like anticon or a vapor permeable uh membrane?
01:06:43.760 -->
01:06:49.920So um that's why I was like, oh here we go.
01:06:50.000 -->
01:06:51.280Um Anticon.
01:06:51.760 -->
01:06:57.840Um we've got plenty of examples of Anticon doing exactly the opposite to that.
01:06:58.000 -->
01:07:12.880Um the the problem with the Anticon blanket is that it gets squished at every perlin when it's using a roof, um, and it's uh at those points it condensates.
01:07:13.119 -->
01:07:23.280Um the only and I did a trial of this on a house that I used to live in uh when we did a massive rent on it.
01:07:23.440 -->
01:07:26.320I was like, I want to see just how bad it gets.
01:07:26.400 -->
01:07:39.840So I didn't put any of the roof ventilation in, and uh, we did it with Anticon blanket because at the time with where I was at and what we were doing, changing it all to Mento just wasn't all of them in the budget.
01:07:40.079 -->
01:07:45.599So I thought, well, this is a great opportunity to learn something and carry that knowledge forward.
01:07:45.760 -->
01:08:01.519Um, and it took three days for the condensation to start generating some molt, at which point I ran around and put all of the um we finished the job in the middle of winter, so like that's your your worst case as well.
01:08:01.679 -->
01:08:13.440So we were heating the house, R6 insulation, truss roof, anticon blanket, and um yeah, on the third day I started to notice like the first day it condensated.
01:08:13.519 -->
01:08:15.039I was like, well, that's no surprise.
01:08:15.199 -->
01:08:17.199Now let's see how long it takes.
01:08:17.439 -->
01:08:22.159And yeah, on the third day I noticed some some mold getting going.
01:08:22.479 -->
01:08:41.279So the um all of the roof vents were very hastily cut out and installed, and the problem the problem went away because we had so much ventilation in there that um the the condensation that was forming was being picked up by the moving air and and vented out.
01:08:41.920 -->
01:08:49.199Um so and in places like Tasmania, Anticon Blankets outlawed has been for has been for a while.
01:08:49.359 -->
01:08:52.000Um and it's for that for that reason.
01:08:52.239 -->
01:09:16.079So if if you um and if you put that into like a really flat roof, so like sort of once you get below 10 degrees, that um that condensation load through the right turn, um, increases dramatically because there's less um air running along the the bottom of the anticon to try to vent out.
01:09:16.960 -->
01:09:29.680So my my advice is that anticon is um not uh not a great thing to do on a roof.
01:09:29.920 -->
01:09:36.640You're better off to put a membrane on there and have a ventilated cavity above that membrane.
01:09:37.039 -->
01:09:45.279Um one of the there's a there's a really good video that Jesse Clark um has done.
01:09:45.359 -->
01:09:55.039It it's like 25 minutes long, but you only have to watch about five minutes of it, um, where he steps through the calculations involved in R values.
01:09:55.199 -->
01:10:16.720And in a nutshell, if you think about the radiant heat, so like you boil the kettle, and if you hold your hand, and I'm gonna go American, an inch away from the um the kettle, you can feel some heat, and if you go half an inch, you you feel a lot of heat, and obviously that increases really rapidly as you get your hands closer.
01:10:17.039 -->
01:10:19.520So the same thing applies with insulation.
01:10:19.600 -->
01:10:33.520If you have the roofing iron hard down on your anticon blanket, which is standard insulation, then the iron temperature is hard against that insulation.
01:10:33.760 -->
01:10:58.479So the heat, there's more heat radiating down into the insulation, and if you separate it with a ventilated cavity, then the radiant heat from the iron is not getting, it's not nowhere near as high when it gets to the membrane, and because that's ventilated, you're bringing in ambient air temperature.
01:10:58.560 -->
01:11:14.079So, regardless of whether it's a 40-degree day or a 25-degree day, the roofing iron um is going to be hotter than the air temperature, and because it's in the sun, and and that air running up is going to be cooler.
01:11:14.319 -->
01:11:29.279So the heat load that's on the membrane is lower, which means the heat load on anything below that, whether it's a truss roof or or a scallion roof where the insulation's hard up against the membrane, the heat load on it is way less.
01:11:29.600 -->
01:11:42.880And there's there's a the way that R values are calculated includes um the K value, which is Kelvin for the temperature difference, and there's some assumptions in the Australian standard for how that's calculated.
01:11:43.119 -->
01:11:53.600And in that scenario I just described, you go way outside the assumptions because roofing iron can get up to 80 degrees in the in the darker colours, obviously colour dependent.
01:11:53.680 -->
01:11:58.000Like any anything with building science, the answer always starts with it depends.
01:11:58.159 -->
01:12:02.239Like, what's the climate, what's the orientation, what's the material, what color is the material?
01:12:02.399 -->
01:12:04.239Like it goes it goes on and on and on.
01:12:04.399 -->
01:12:13.600So that's why I always try to talk in, I try to keep it as general as I can because there's like specific answers are not possible without knowing specific details.
01:12:13.840 -->
01:12:16.560No, but I think I'm hoping the general principles are the same.
01:12:16.720 -->
01:12:22.720Yeah, and I'm look, I'm hoping by having these conversations it's going to spark the interest of more builders and they're gonna dig deeper on this stuff.
01:12:22.880 -->
01:12:27.520But um, I think as a general rule of thumb, like we still use anticon on our roos.
01:12:27.680 -->
01:12:29.840Um, we're really well ventilating them.
01:12:30.000 -->
01:12:33.920But um, that's next on our list that we're which is which is the easy thing.
01:12:34.000 -->
01:12:39.840Like if you're a builder listening to this and you're like, oh god, like far out, all my jobs have got anticon.
01:12:40.239 -->
01:12:46.079Just just make sure your roof is really well vented and you'll you'll minimize your risk.
01:12:46.319 -->
01:12:56.319Yeah, well, we've gone back old school, like we're using vented safet sheets, we've got vented bridge caps on, like we're putting um solar powered whirlpool solar powered vents in the roof.
01:12:56.399 -->
01:13:00.640Um, like we're really getting that air movement, which I think is a very important thing.
01:13:00.800 -->
01:13:05.199But um, mate, we'll we'll have to wrap it up because I haven't even got through half my questions.
01:13:05.359 -->
01:13:07.039We might have to get you back for round two.
01:13:07.199 -->
01:13:13.039But um the very last thing, sorry, but two just two things before we go.
01:13:13.199 -->
01:13:18.079Um the first one is like just quickly tell us about Climashore.
01:13:18.239 -->
01:13:21.520Like, what does Climashore offer um builders or clients?
01:13:22.640 -->
01:13:28.960Yeah, so Climashore um does a couple of different things.
01:13:29.119 -->
01:13:33.760We we're obviously the distributor in South Australia for ProClim membranes.
01:13:34.079 -->
01:13:55.840We also make um and sell a bunch of standard-sized um uh cavity closures that are made out of uh stainless steel mesh that um complies with all the bushfire requirements, and because it's stainless steel, it also complies with the corrosion zone requirements.
01:13:56.239 -->
01:14:01.359Um and then in addition to the products, we provide consulting.
01:14:01.520 -->
01:14:04.880So the consulting covers a pretty wide variety of things.
01:14:04.960 -->
01:14:19.680We do passive house consulting, so um obviously all of all of the Enduro certified passive houses, uh ClimaShore does those, and and we work for uh a few builders and one architect at the moment.
01:14:19.840 -->
01:14:43.920Um, and we provide WOFI analysis and thermal bridge calculations, as well as doing um plan reviews and just providing early feedback on any sort of major areas of concern, primarily from a thermal bridge point of view, uh, and also from getting a complete thermal envelope point of view.
01:14:44.159 -->
01:15:21.520So they're they're like applying applying the pillars of a passive house, but the consolency is about casting our eyes over the plans and saying, hey, like there's a bit of a problem with that detail, and things like things like cantilever overhangs are always a tricky one where they're often supported by steel, which means you can generate a situation where you've got steel going from inside the thermal envelope to outside, and and there's ways to sort all of that out, but the best like so with all building problems, the best time to fix them is the moment you identify them, and the earlier you can identify them, the better.
01:15:21.840 -->
01:15:27.520Um, so that in a nutshell is what we do, which is all on our website.
01:15:27.680 -->
01:15:28.880I am blower door testing.
01:15:28.960 -->
01:15:30.239I always forget about that.
01:15:30.560 -->
01:15:30.960Yeah, yeah.
01:15:32.880 -->
01:15:42.640Um, and I guess for anyone listening anywhere in Australia, like uh or I know maybe New Zealand too, but um like we've got a couple of clients at the moment dealing with um Jackson's team at Climashore.
01:15:42.800 -->
01:16:03.840Like they do they offer reports and things, which um I know are helping a couple of our clients at the moment make some key decisions in the design stage before and like we're still working our way pricing through the job, so it's really good to have that information, be able to make adjustments now uh before we get too far down the track, or like we're not even at building contract yet, we're just working through our pre-construction pack process.
01:16:04.000 -->
01:16:11.279So um, yeah, reach out to Clomashore if you're unsure of uh any of these things we've spoken about today, I guess, and see if they can help you out.
01:16:11.359 -->
01:16:23.039But um mate, last one was like for any builders that are listening that want to build better but aren't quite sure, what's like one or two just simple things that they can start doing on their projects?
01:16:24.479 -->
01:16:40.399Um this the the first one would be adopting ventilated cavities that that will it will protect you from problems down the line and and it will really help help um improve the performance of the houses that you're building.
01:16:40.640 -->
01:16:54.319Um and and the second one is um do at least do the very minimum with uh preventing the most obvious thermal bridge in houses, which is the windows.
01:16:55.279 -->
01:16:55.520Yeah.
01:16:55.760 -->
01:17:03.199Do double glazing and use either a good quality thermally broken aluminium or a UPVC frame.
01:17:03.439 -->
01:17:06.159Or if you've got a client that really wants to do timber, timber.
01:17:06.479 -->
01:17:15.039The only reason I'd timber's always on the end because it costs so much more, um, and and has a lot of maintenance hang-ups.
01:17:15.119 -->
01:17:27.680So yes, you sequester a lot of carbon and using the using timber, but then you're gonna paint it every year or oil it or and then there's you know those flow on to you know those flow-ons have to be considered.
01:17:28.000 -->
01:17:33.520Mate, correct me if I'm wrong, but with the cavity or the drained cavity system, they're calling it in the NCC.
01:17:33.840 -->
01:17:39.840The if you're in climate zone six, seven, eight, like that's in by the end of 2025.
01:17:39.920 -->
01:17:41.680Like you have to do that, don't you?
01:17:42.960 -->
01:17:45.199That that is my understanding.
01:17:45.359 -->
01:17:51.680Um, the tricky part for me is I'm in South Australia where um, and this is a it's constant.
01:17:51.760 -->
01:18:02.319And I I was saying to like um a consulting client this morning that said I wish that I had one of those brains where you can like read stuff and just remember it.
01:18:02.479 -->
01:18:10.880Uh, because in South Australia we have a very complex um delay in the building code implementation.
01:18:11.039 -->
01:18:18.239And the reason I say complex is some bits are in, some bits are excluded, some bits are excluded if you're building a town.
01:18:18.640 -->
01:18:29.439There's all these weird things that make it pretty much every time Jess and I get a question, we have to just double check that we're giving the right answer.
01:18:29.520 -->
01:18:33.520Um, particularly, yeah, with interstate clients, it's pretty straightforward.
01:18:33.600 -->
01:18:41.199But South Australian ones is tricky, but yeah, that is my understanding that that's that's a that's a requirement.
01:18:41.439 -->
01:19:06.319Yeah, like apart from all the other maybe bits and pieces and rules and uh I guess um type of property you're building or type of dwelling you're building or the class of building and stuff, but yes, zone six, seven, eight, pretty much by the end of 2025, like you have to be doing this on your projects, and then all other zones and and under slab, yeah, under slab insulation, yeah.
01:19:06.800 -->
01:19:14.159And then uh all other climate zones like one to five will be in, like I think they've been delayed until late 28 or something.
01:19:14.239 -->
01:19:22.960But even like the the reality is this stuff is coming into code, and if you're not talking about it, you're not becoming more aware of it, you you really should be.
01:19:23.119 -->
01:19:31.199So um I hope today's podcast has sparked some interest and you start reaching out to uh people like Jackson and his team at Climate Shore.
01:19:31.359 -->
01:19:38.319Um, we're gonna try and get this podcast out pretty quickly because uh Climate Shore is actually sponsoring a we call them a fuel session.
01:19:38.399 -->
01:19:39.760Live like Bill does fuel sessions.
01:19:39.840 -->
01:19:43.439We've got one coming up on the 14th, Friday, the 14th of November.
01:19:43.520 -->
01:19:56.239It's in Adelaide and it is completely focused on educating builders on uh drained cavities, ventilated cavities, the ProClima product, um, and the health, but the benefits it brings to using it on your homes.
01:19:56.319 -->
01:20:07.119And I'm going to be talking uh how I sell it to my clients because that seems to be a very big hurdle for most builders is getting over those cost conversations with clients because this stuff does cost more.
01:20:07.279 -->
01:20:15.600So uh we're managing to do it with every single one of our building clients, and in fact, we the more we talk, it seems like the more we talk about on socials, the more and more people want it.
01:20:15.760 -->
01:20:17.920So um I think it's a no-brainer.
01:20:18.159 -->
01:20:21.600But Jackson, really appreciate your time this afternoon, mate, for coming on.
01:20:21.680 -->
01:20:22.960You're you're a wealth of knowledge.
01:20:23.039 -->
01:20:26.880I honestly I didn't even get through half my questions, I'd love to chew your ear off for hours.
01:20:27.840 -->
01:20:29.520No, it's good, it's good.
01:20:29.760 -->
01:20:35.279Um I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and and your experience, and I think the industry needs more of it.
01:20:35.439 -->
01:20:38.479So um, mate, look forward to um catching up with you soon.
01:20:38.640 -->
01:20:40.000Like I said, appreciate your time.
01:20:40.079 -->
01:20:46.960And yeah, look, uh, before we go out, is there anything else you wanted to say, or where can the listeners just go to websites, Instagram?
01:20:48.159 -->
01:20:56.640Yeah, the the the the websites for Climature and Enduro builders, uh yeah, they they get told that there's lots of useful information there.
01:20:57.119 -->
01:21:06.720Uh and yeah, and our and our Instagram, you you on Instagram you you'll always be like caught Jess or I talking about something to do with this stuff.
01:21:06.960 -->
01:21:13.279Um, and the only other thing that I just thought of for builders is is have a bit of faith in your trades.
01:21:13.439 -->
01:21:16.640Our our trades have all come on the journey.
01:21:16.960 -->
01:21:22.079None of none of my trades started off with any interest in energy efficiency.
01:21:22.239 -->
01:21:27.279And I really just said like this is what I'm doing, this is the path that we're on.
01:21:27.680 -->
01:21:35.600And um, and there have hasn't been that many that have stuck their nose up at it and walked.
01:21:35.840 -->
01:21:44.000Um and I think I think you'd be amazed how how well they'll support you because you know everyone wants to do better.
01:21:44.159 -->
01:21:50.800Sometimes you just need to have the right the right push in the right direction at the right time, and then you're away.
01:21:51.119 -->
01:21:51.840Yeah, definitely.
01:21:52.000 -->
01:21:53.520No, I agree 100%, mate.
01:21:53.600 -->
01:21:56.640Well, um, look, like I said, thanks for coming on this afternoon.
01:21:56.720 -->
01:21:58.960Um, and everybody, thanks for listening.
01:21:59.039 -->
01:22:02.000Uh, continue to make this Australia's number one construction podcast.
01:22:02.079 -->
01:22:06.319As always, go to the DwaynePears.com website, make sure you get your merch.
01:22:06.479 -->
01:22:10.159And uh, look, as always, if there's anything you want to know, any questions you have, make sure you reach out.
01:22:10.239 -->
01:22:11.359We're happy to help you out.
01:22:11.439 -->
01:22:12.960Uh, look forward to seeing you on the next one.
01:22:13.199 -->
01:22:22.720All right, guys, I want to introduce you to a really exciting new product that I believe is going to play a massive role in Australia building healthier homes.
01:22:22.880 -->
01:22:35.439As you all know, I am extremely passionate about healthy homes and I'm doing a lot of research and putting a lot of time and effort into making sure my construction business is leading the way when it comes to building healthy homes here in Australia.
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01:22:38.640We've teamed up with the guys from Highwood Timber.
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01:23:05.199While tackling condensation to improve building health and ease of insulation, highwood battons are built to perform.
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01:23:20.239They reduce condensation risk and support healthier, longer lasting buildings.
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01:23:29.920Highwood timber battons are also in alignment with the proposed NCC condensation management requirements as well as passive house ventilation requirements.
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01:23:45.119 -->
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01:24:00.079The part that I like the most about these batons are they are H3 treated for long-term protection against decay and turmoiles.
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01:24:08.239They use a waterborne H3 treatment which reduces reactivity with membranes and adhesives when compared to LOSP.
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01:24:16.720These are the exact battens that you want to be using on your homes and your builds if you are considering building healthier homes or passive homes.
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01:24:19.680Check them out, Highwood Timber Products.
