The Status Game Running Your Work Life with Will Storr

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What makes people follow a leader? It's not salary, it's not strategy, and according
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to my guest today, many leaders completely misunderstand what actually motivates people.
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Connection status dominate our internal monologue.
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That's a stall. Author of the status game, the science of storytelling, and his story
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is a deal. In this conversation, we break down how great leaders create loyalty, rally
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people behind their mission, and communicate in a way that makes people want to follow
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them.
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That binds the group together, and it's part of a leader's job to communicate that
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story, and even embody that story.
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My name is Oliver Haust, I've held over 300 founders and CEOs become top 1% communicators,
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and this is speak like a CEO, where hug you, master communications as a leader. Let's get
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into it.
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Humans live in two worlds at once, so what are these worlds?
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Like all animals, we live in a world of survival. We want to have food, oxygen, shelter,
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procreation, so in that sense, we know different from many other creatures, but humans uniquely
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live in this other world, which is this story world, and indeed, that's what we spend most
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of our psychological time.
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We experience our lives as great unfolding narrative, or which we're at the centre of.
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On constant quests, which are the plots of our lives, we're surrounded by this cast
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of characters who are not just other humans, but they're heroes and villains and teachers
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and allies and all these other things.
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So it's this story world, which is really the main focus of our conscious lives.
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Right, I think that's not easy to get your head round, right?
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Because we assume we live in reality, we think about the world as it is, rather than the
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story world in our heads.
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That's right, but every animal has a completely different, they call it an unveilter,
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in a perception of what reality is, like a dog lives in a world of smell, and a knife
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fish lives in a world of electricity, and a blood sucking tick lives in a world where
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they're just sitting on a top of a blade of grass, waiting to jump onto something to
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suck its blood, and all they can do is smell and feel temperature.
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But humans are unveilers' story, so we have evolved uniquely to experience the world
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as this story, and it's that that's the secret of our success.
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What's the evolutionary reason for us to live in a story world?
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Well, the way that I see it is that there have been three great technological leaps
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as it were in evolutionary history.
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The first one, if you track our family tree back to 3.8 billion years, so the root of
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our family tree collectively, there's a single cell bacteria, that's the earliest form
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of life on Earth, and the single cell bacteria is this machine for overcoming obstacles in pursuit
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of goals, but it's a very simple machine in the sense that it's like an algorithm, so
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it can sense what's happening outside it, it can sense what's happening inside it, and
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it has these kind of X, Y decisions.
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If this is the situation, I'm going to do this, so it's very successful in its way,
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but it's not very good at dealing with unpredictable environments, so of course, what is life on
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Earth if it isn't unpredictable.
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So then evolution comes up with this brand new technology for overcoming obstacles in
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pursuit of goals, and that technology is the feeling system, and the feeling system
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is amazing because it doesn't instruct its owner what to do, it advises.
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So if you're a mouse, and you're hungry, and you see some toast crusts over the head
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by the bin, you think I'm going to get the toast crust, but then you see a cat, and so
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you feel a new feeling, which is fear, and so you can make a rational calculation based
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on its feelings, do I go for the crust or do I wait till the cat's gone, so feelings
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are an incredible invention for overcoming obstacles in pursuit of goals, and with the
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most successful technology on Earth for millions and millions of years, but then somewhere
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around 50 to 100,000 years ago, this brand new thing, which was story, and we are the
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only animal on Earth that has this capacity, and story is a fantastic technology for overcoming
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obstacles in pursuit of goals, because it allows us to do it collectively.
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We can share information about how to do that, we can store it in culture, story fuses
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human brains together, so we're all directed on the same obstacles and the same goals,
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but you know, we're all, so story allows us to behave not like individual apes, which
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is what we were, but it's this kind of collective super organism.
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That is so fascinating, and does it apply to all of us, because, you know, I work with
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engineers, I work with, you know, financially minded CEOs and so on, and I'm sure you do
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too, so they often push back and say, yeah, most people, but not me.
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Of course, like all these things, there's, you know, some of us are more than others,
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but yeah, absolutely, we all experience our lives as story.
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I mean, in the lives of those, you know, usually very successful people that you're dealing
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with, they experience their lives as being absolutely drenched in meaning, the mission of
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their life, whether it's to build this company or to solve this engineering problem, is
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of immense importance to them, you know, and that's part of the story's heading brain.
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There'll be heroes on their team, and people that are suspected villains on their team,
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who are great rivals and other companies that they're trying to compete against.
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And so it's all story stuff, it's all talking, it's all, you know, it's all the great mission
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that we're all on to achieve our quests and arrive at our imagined happy endings.
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I mean, we all have our own stories, of course, but are there archetypes of stories that
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people tell themselves?
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One of the basic sort of archetypes, which I think is universal, is the underdog.
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So the underdog is an immensely popular and successful character in story, and the
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most successful characters in global storytelling are underdogs.
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I mean, everything from Luke Skywalker, back when I was a kid, to Squid Game, you know,
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the character in the central Squid Game is a classic underdog, they spend the first
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20 part minutes half an hour of that show showing you all the ways in which he's this
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total loser, you know, and it's surrounded by all these problems.
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And so, I mean, I think it's part of the storytelling brain that we continually feel
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like the underdog, even the most successful people in the world feel like the underdog,
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because that's life.
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Life is immense obstacles and amazing goals and the feeling of struggling a lot.
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You know, our winds are temporary, they're fleeting, the struggle is eternal.
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And part of the, you know, the evolutionary purpose of storytelling is to say, you can
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do it, you know, it's an inherent part of the underdog that they're optimistic, despite
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all their challenges, they still go on and they still push on and still push on.
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And it's that, you know, that's the kind of propaganda role of storytelling to encourage
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us to make us feel like these underdogs, no matter how bad things get, you got to keep
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pushing, you got to keep pushing.
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And that's universal.
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So in every culture in the world, you find underdog stories.
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Yeah.
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I love that.
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And yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense that we all see ourselves as sort of the
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plucky underdog that overcomes obstacles and pursuit of a goal and it's interesting
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that you chose the word underdog rather than hero because the hero also starts from
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in a sort of disadvantage position and then has to grow to become the hero.
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You know, born a hero, you become the hero in the course of your quest.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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So in archetypal hero stories, the hero is never the hero on page one, in that one.
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They're an underdog.
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So they're struggling, they're low status, they're, and they're often flawed.
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And the way that the protagonist becomes heroic is by overcoming their flaws and by overcoming
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their flaws, they solve their problems, they achieve their goals.
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And then when they do in act three, then they're the hero and they're celebrated and they're
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rewarded with the great social rewards of connection, tribal connection.
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So everybody's applauding them and loves them and status.
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So they're, you know, they're heroes, they're highly valued in that community.
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And that's what we all want to assume that's basically in the basic wiring of the storytelling
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cognition is that we all crave connection and the feeling of being loved and we all crave
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status, the feeling of being valued.
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Right.
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I think that's, that's such a central insight, right?
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Once our survival is secured, which is not a given, obviously, in this, in this world,
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of course.
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But let's say survival is secured, it's connection and it's status that we're looking
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for.
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And connection, people like us or any person.
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Yeah.
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I mean, so, so connection is kind of local.
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We've evolved to be this highly cooperative collaborative ape, you know?
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So, so, you know, we're part ape, part ant, essentially.
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And that's, that's our super, that's what makes us amazing.
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But what that means is we continue looking out into the world for people who are suitable
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for us to collaborate with.
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I mean, that's not going to be everybody.
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That's just going to be people who are a bit like us who experience the world in the
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same way have similar values, come from similar backgrounds.
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You said something, we are part ape and part ant, I'd love to double click on that.
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So please say more.
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The scientists refer to an ant nest as a, as a super organism in that it's made up of
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individual ants, you know, millions of individual ants.
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But each ant plays their particular role.
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And so they're, they're almost like cells in a greater body.
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And you can see human groups as a super organism too, you know?
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I mean, ants communicate with pheromones, with smell, we communicate with stories.
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And so, you know, an organization is a kind of ants nest with everybody's playing their
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particular role in the super organism in order to achieve the goals of the, of the organization.
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A company tells a story about the world, about what our values are, about what our goals
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are, about what our problems are, about who our rivals are, about the ways we ought to
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be in order to overcome our obstacles in pursuit of growth or whatever, or, you know, beating
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our rivals.
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And it's that story that fuses the brains of all those employees together and gets them
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all thinking as one, gets them all working as this incredible super organism, which is,
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again, it's our super power, it's the thing that is enabled us to take over the world.
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Yeah, absolutely, but pushback could be that, okay, ants don't have free will, don't
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we have free will, or at least free choice?
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We do have free choice, but I don't think we have as much free choices we might like
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to think, you know, we're compelled by a very powerful subconscious.
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And that very powerful subconscious is really what's in control of our behavior and what's
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in control of our choices.
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And how the brain works is that we tell stories about our choices.
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And those stories tend to be, I chose that out of my own free will.
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But often we don't.
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I mean, they call it confabulation.
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We tell these stories.
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I mean, there's a very, very famous study where, very simple study where scientists got
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these people, these women, and got them to flick through some, I don't know if they're
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bikinis or, you know, underwear or something, and asking to choose their favourite item
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from the rack.
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And it's just a known rule that you tend to like the best of the last thing that you've
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seen.
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And most of the people just chose the last thing that they've seen.
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And when they asked that women, you know, why did you choose this?
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They come up with all these flowery descriptions and explanations and about why they chose
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this thing.
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And when it was suggested to them, well, actually, maybe you chose it just because it's
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the last thing you'd seen.
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You know, they said they looked at the experiments like they were mad.
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Like, what are you talking about?
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You're insane.
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And so that's the story of setting brain and it kind of shows you, you know, the extent
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to which we are mostly subconscious.
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And that's subconscious wants these two things.
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It wants us to be a good member of the super organism.
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So it wants to seek out and attract us to people like us.
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So we're constantly looking out for people who are like us.
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And that's what we spend so much time on our appearance and where we fuss about our
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hair and I've got my books in the background, everything we do is broadcasting out to the
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human world.
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Who am I?
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What are my values?
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What are my roles?
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You know, and it's trying to, it's trying to both attract other people like us to
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me so we can work together, but also repel people not like us who are not going to be
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useful to me.
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And the other second thing that we all want is status.
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So we're constantly fussing about these people like us.
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Do they value me?
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Have I pleased them?
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Am I being useful to them?
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So that's also a huge subconscious most of it in human life.
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Yeah.
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For sure.
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What does that mean for business?
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Let's start sort of internally within the company.
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Obviously, let's assume there's a, there's leadership and people are working the company.
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How relevant is storytelling within such an organization?
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It's super-organism.
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Maybe a big business or big organization is also a super-organism.
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Well, it's massively important.
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It's hugely important.
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And I think it's important is, it is understated even in today's world where people talk
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about having to work storytelling for a long time.
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It's a story that binds the group together and it's part of a leader's job to communicate
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that story and even embody that story.
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We still have this kind of industrial evolution mindset that money is how you motivate people.
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And actually money motivates you in a short term.
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We've all had a pay rise before.
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We're really pleased for about four days.
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Let me forget about the pay rise.
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You know, we go, you all I deserved in it.
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It's, you know, you know, so it's that that's not really what motivates people.
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What motivates people is this connection and status?
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Is that feeling that I feel connected to this group, I identify with this mission, what
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the group wants, I personally want.
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So everything that I'm going to do now is for the group and for our mission.
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And that's part of me.
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So when the group wins, I win.
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When the group says to me, well done, you've done amazing.
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I feel fantastic and I go home, feeling that my life has meaning and purpose.
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I mean, you know, really an organization can live or die by the power of the storytelling.
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The organization, the leader communicates down to the organization.
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Yeah.
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And I think to me, there's a bit of a crisis and leadership communication that you alluded
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to.
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You talked about the industrial revolution mindset.
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And in a way, we are still a little bit stuck in that, I feel.
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And when you look at the agents and medieval ages and so on, leaders told stories.
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That's how they, you know, motivated people to follow them.
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That's how they organize society, whether it's kings or priests or aristocracy.
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And then the industrial age came and all became the sort of conveyor belt about the numbers.
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And we forgot about that a little bit.
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It's coming back thanks to people like yourself.
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But would you agree that there's a bit of a, you know, just a historical dip in the ability
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and understanding of storytelling?
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Yeah.
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And I think that it's because we're in this, you know, post industrial revolution age
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where which values money very highly.
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And there's nothing wrong with that.
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There's nothing wrong with money.
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You know, we were all capitalists here, but I guess that's not the thing that fundamentally
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motivates people.
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And you know, you push back a little before about saying, we're not like ants, we have
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free will.
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And I think one of the ways that we're not, one of the mistakes that organizations
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often make is they think we are like ants in the book, as you know, I compared the
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capitalists of the 20th century and beyond to the communists because they all made the
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same mistake.
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They thought we were ants.
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They thought the communists thought that a good person is somebody that works for the
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revolution, not for themselves, and that should make them happy, that should be enough
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for them.
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But of course, it isn't enough.
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It isn't enough for people.
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And also, you know, toxic corporations also think the same.
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They think, well, I'm paying you a wage, that should be enough for you.
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Everything you now do should be for the organization and your, or personal identity should be completely
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subsumed into the organization.
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And that's not true either.
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Like status is this, we seek status in two different ways.
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One, yeah, group status is important.
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We identify with the group.
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When our football team wins, we feel like we've won.
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Like it's a weird thing about humans is the group status does impact us.
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But when we're at work, we also need individual status.
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We need to feel that our individual contribution to the mission is recognised as seen and is
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celebrated.
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So that's also important.
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And I think, you know, psychologists are just sort of waking up to this idea relatively
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recently that it's that this individual status is an absolutely crucial thing in terms
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of motivating people.
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Yeah, and I think especially now with the introduction of AI systems across organizations,
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I think there's a huge risk there that people will be treated like ends once again under
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the headline of digital transformation, because if you take people's agency away, which could
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is one possible outcome of AI introductions, then they will be demotivated.
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They will feel about their agency and it's lost that mastery is no longer achievable
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because they're essentially cobs in the machine.
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Yeah, that's right.
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And I think, you know, agencies, you know, it's so important in the book.
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I talk about this idea that I call competent space is that in it's that every employee,
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no matter where they are sitting, the hierarchy, they need to be given space to show their
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competence.
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So any job, which is this conveyor belt job, where you're told exactly what to do and
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exactly what time it's going to be sold destroying, because you're not given the space to prove
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your worth, to prove your value individually.
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So it's so that competent space, I think, is absolutely important for every employee.
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90% of presentations are forgotten within a day and even the best ideas get ignored.
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Over the last 20 years, I felt hundreds of leaders prepare for stages like Ted and South
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by Southwest, and the difference is always the same.
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Top 1% communicators, they use a system and this system is called the perfect presentation
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planner.
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Download it now.
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It's free link in the description.
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So we talked about the organization internally leadership employees, what about customers?
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I mean, advertising, social media, all of that is essentially storytelling and sometimes
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it works.
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Sometimes it really doesn't.
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Yeah, I mean, I think the most successful advertising appeals to our identity.
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It appeals to people like us.
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It says that we are like you and you are like us and we have the same values.
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And that has a magnetic effect on people.
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It draws people to these brands.
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I mean, the book I tell the story about Adidas, who back in the eighties, were completely
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screwed.
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America, they had a three percent share of the market, been dominated by Reebok, dominated
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by Nike, who were making all these sponsorship deals with athletes.
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And then it all changed when Rundy MC, this pioneering hip hop band, representatives of this
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new genre of music, released this song, My Adidas, and they would wave their Adidas in
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the air at concerts.
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And so Adidas became this symbol of the hip hop movement.
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You know, to their credit, Adidas is a very conservative German company, embraced this
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African-American art form and did a massive deal with Rundy MC, the first ever sponsorship
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deal with a musician.
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And it was enormously successful, turned their fortunes around.
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You know, why?
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Because logically it doesn't make any sense.
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That marketing campaign or that marketing exercise was nothing to do with the quality
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of the shoe.
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It wasn't to do it.
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It's comfort, how fast it helped you run or whatever.
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You know, it's longevity, whatever that might be.
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It was all about identity.
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It was like, if you're going to be a fan of hip hop, you have to wear Adidas shoes.
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And people responded in their millions to that.
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And it's still true, right?
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Because my neighbor, he grew up in 80s, New York.
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He's still wears Adidas.
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He's still in that sort of people like up like me wear Adidas, right?
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So one collaboration with a band 40 years ago is still selling shoes today.
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I mean, that is just incredible.
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Yeah, that's right.
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In the book, as I was writing it, I remembered why I wear box shorts.
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And that's because back in the 80s, when I was at the beginning of my adolescence, there
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was the very famous ad for Levi's, father ones, where Nick came and walked in and he's all
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got all the girls fancily take his jeans off.
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And he's got boxer shorts.
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And that had the weird effect that it rocketed sales of Levi's, but it also rocketed sales
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of boxer shorts.
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And I'm 50 now.
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I'm still wearing boxer shorts because the Adidas saw when I was probably eight years
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old.
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It's extraordinary.
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Like the idea of rain pants, like underpants, you know, like it's crazy, it's irrational,
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but so it's still, that's part of my identity, you know, even though nobody else knows about
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it's about my wife, you know, everybody who is my book now, like it feels irrational,
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but it's not.
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It's all about this relentless quester on to, you know, tell stories about who we are in
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order that we attract other people like us.
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Yeah.
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And there's some famous examples as well, where companies misjudge their audience.
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Right.
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And the story what they live in.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I mean, you know, the most recent, most catastrophic example with a Bud Light campaign, where,
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you know, drinkers of Bud Light in America, they're often working class dudes, but for some
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reason, the marketing department of Bud Weiser felt this somehow solid, you know, solid
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to them.
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And they want, so they wanted to open a brand new market.
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And of course, it backfired on them massively because they, they, they, they, they almost
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like sawtap and found a liberty, the opposite people like us to their constituent, their
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market and, and, and, and it blew up in their faces.
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I mean, a good market here understands the story world that they're, their audience lives
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in, an experience and reflects that back to them.
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It doesn't do the opposite.
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So, so, yeah, I think that's the trap that people often fall into is that they, they experience
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their own story world.
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And they think that's reality, but it's not, it's just their reality.
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And in order to be a successful marketer, you have to understand the story world.
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If you're audience like it, it's a, it's a, it's a non-negotiable.
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How, how do you do that, though?
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Listen to them.
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You listen to their stories.
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You, you, you, you, you listen to their, you observe how they transmit to their clothes
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and their gestures and their language, especially their language, who they are to each
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other.
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You find out who are their heroes and why, you know, what, what, what qualities do
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their heroes have that make them heroic to them?
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And likewise, who are their villains?
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Who, who, who they don't want to be?
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You know, some, um, successful campaigns that have been successfully in change of behavior,
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um, play with that idea of if you don't do this, you're going to be rejected from your
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group.
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So in the, in the book, I tell the very famous story of the, don't mess with Texas, um,
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anti-littering campaigns, which, which were hugely successful in stopping, um, the, you
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know, young men throwing their beer cans out of, um, uh, their car windows and littering
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the freeways by saying, look, you know, you're messing with Texas.
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This is an unpatriotic anti-Texas act and, you know, it was, it was massively successful.
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So, so, so, so, but in order to do that, you know, the, the, the, the guys who came out
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with that ad campaign, you know, one of them was Texan.
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He understood the Texas mindset and he understood it deeply.
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And so he understood instinctively that if you want to stop that, we've got to appeal
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to the story that Texans tell about themselves and, and, and say, look, if you do this, you're
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not really a Texan, you're, you're messing with Texas.
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The same is true for the Brexit campaign, isn't it, that the leaf campaign listened
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to focus groups and essentially picked up certain phrases from them that they then used
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and basically played back at them?
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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I mean, in the book, let's say that I talk about this idea that I call atomic statements,
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which is just very, very powerful short statements, um, uh, the, whether, really, really
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the original form of storytelling, you know, you know, back when the early religions
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were evolving and spreading around the world, people couldn't read, they had no access
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to books.
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You couldn't read the Bible or the, you know, the collected works of Aristotle, you
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know, so, so, so, so how did these stories spread?
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Well, they spread in aphorisms originally.
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So, you know, Jesus said, no prophet is accepted in his own village, Teneca, said, in ancient
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Greece.
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So sometimes it is an act of bravery even to live.
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And so we, so, so we still use these, you know, atomic statements today, they, they manifest
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in the form of memes, tweets, um, they've still called them tweets, um, you know, they,
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uh, and also kind of, you know, advertising slogans.
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And I think, you know, when you look at the greatest campaign, that was part of Dominic
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coming as genius, we discovered that people were, the number one thing people were interested
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in were, um, it was immigration, and they would constantly come up to the phrase, we need
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to take back control of our borders, we've lost control of our borders.
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And number two, that they, they blame the EU for this.
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So take back control was this dog whistle to people who are worried about immigration
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and upset about immigration, um, but it's an atomic statement, it's incredibly powerful
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statements.
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I was thinking recently to talk to a friend about why certain, let's say podcasts guests
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or social media personalities cut through when others don't, who may say the same thing
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essentially, I have the same sort of background and we settled on essentially the idea of atomic
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statement, even though we didn't have the terms or things to you and, and the new book,
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um, you know, that term is out there.
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I think this captures it beautifully.
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I was also thinking about, you know, it being a host and sometimes a guest, you know,
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what does it mean in terms of the atomic statements?
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And I think such media trains you to do that as well, you know, if, if it's ex or like
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me on, on, on, on LinkedIn, you only have a few words to ideally convey an atomic statement,
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but that's, that's beautiful.
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Um, how do we then tell a story, right?
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So I think there's, there's a lot of storytelling advice out there and, you know, I'm guilty of
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that as well.
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I use certain structures, use certain formulas.
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I like to collect them and in your book, you point out, let's start maybe there what
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isn't working.
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You said, for instance, that, um, muscle hierarchy of needs and the hero's journey, those are
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outdated concepts from the 1940s.
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So maybe let's start there and then work our way towards what is actually working today.
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Yeah, that's right.
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So I mean, when I'm consulting and going into talk to organizations, it always fills me
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with gloom that they're still trying to get the, the hero's journey to work because the
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hero's journey means amazing.
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I mean, you know, Joseph Campbell was the genius, um, but, but as you said, this was written
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in the 1940s, this, this book.
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And, you know, one of the big things that we know is that, you know, we have a huge revolution
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in evolutionary psychology, so this understanding of, um, actually what we want and actually,
455
00:25:01.560 --> 00:25:02.680
you know, what motivates us.
456
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:05.480
And again, this, this also goes into muscle hierarchy of needs.
457
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:11.320
Um, it's actually much simpler, you know, we're a tribal animal and that means that we
458
00:25:11.320 --> 00:25:17.200
have evolved to, um, existing cooperative groups.
459
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:18.600
It's survival, connection and status.
460
00:25:18.600 --> 00:25:20.040
Those are the three things that humans want.
461
00:25:20.040 --> 00:25:21.040
We want to survive.
462
00:25:21.040 --> 00:25:24.480
We want to connect and we want to, want to be valued thinking about who loves me, who
463
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.480
doesn't love me.
464
00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:29.360
You're worrying about a relationship that you've had, what you're thinking about your status.
465
00:25:29.360 --> 00:25:33.840
Yeah, obstacles like, um, what went wrong for me today, what went right for me today,
466
00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:37.080
what can I do tomorrow in order to push me closer to this goal?
467
00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:39.840
So, you know, connection and status dominate our internal monologue.
468
00:25:39.840 --> 00:25:44.720
So you propose in the book, um, a clear three-act structure that we can follow and just
469
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:49.680
to clarify, the book is not a, you know, methodology of ABC, do this and you close the
470
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:50.680
dear kind of thing.
471
00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:52.440
It's so much more and goes so much deeper.
472
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:57.880
But I appreciate you also giving us the, you know, a path to telecompaling stories.
473
00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:03.440
So could you walk us through the three acts again, so this is kind of adapted from, um,
474
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.760
you know, traditional storytelling uses crisis, crisis, struggle, um, resolution.
475
00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:11.560
So it's, you know, it's similar to that where, where, where the beginning of the story,
476
00:26:11.560 --> 00:26:17.400
you've got somebody who, um, has a problem, uh, they meet in obstacle and then they,
477
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:21.720
you know, struggle over that obstacle and in the third act, they achieve their goal.
478
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.440
And in, and in doing, in, in overcoming the obstacle and achieving their goal, they
479
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:29.480
learn something and that, and that thing that you learn is your takeaway message.
480
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.200
So, so, so, so those are the basic building blocks of any story.
481
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.080
And I think fundamental to that is the idea of obstacles and goals, like if you don't
482
00:26:36.080 --> 00:26:39.480
have an obstacle in a goal in a story, you're confused, you're lost.
483
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:42.080
And often, even very experienced storytellers forget this.
484
00:26:42.080 --> 00:26:45.840
And you can find yourself reading a novel, watching a film and you, you're confused,
485
00:26:45.840 --> 00:26:49.880
you're, you don't know, you board an often, very often, that's because it's not clear
486
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.000
who wants what and what's standing in the way of getting that thing.
487
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.360
You know, that's basically what, what a story has to be.
488
00:26:55.560 --> 00:26:58.680
And you know, you see ads that are trying to be stories that aren't actually stories
489
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:01.800
because there's no obstacle and there's no goal and no transformation.
490
00:27:01.800 --> 00:27:03.080
Yeah, no transformation.
491
00:27:03.080 --> 00:27:06.920
It's, it may just be an anecdote or, you know, serious of events.
492
00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:11.560
But for me, the story, in addition to what you mentioned, is it needs that transformation
493
00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:16.440
in order to show the growth that has happened as a result of overcoming the obstacle.
494
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:16.760
Yes.
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00:27:16.760 --> 00:27:20.760
And that transformation tells you something and that's the takeaway message is that that's
496
00:27:20.760 --> 00:27:25.000
the important kind of thing that the story's transmitting is like, look, this person had
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00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:30.120
a problem and they overcome it and they changed and this is what they learned.
498
00:27:30.120 --> 00:27:31.120
Yeah.
499
00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:35.560
Do we need to distinguish between, let's say, the traditional storytelling we may find
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00:27:35.560 --> 00:27:41.640
in movies and books or, you know, novels and persuasive storytelling we use in business?
501
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:42.920
Is there a structure difference?
502
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:49.280
Well, I mean, in the science of storytelling, when I'm talking to novelists and screenwriters
503
00:27:49.280 --> 00:27:53.480
and playwrights, I use a five-act structure there, which is similar, but it's just broken
504
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:56.240
down into into more acts.
505
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:03.200
And that really, that five-act structure really emphasizes more the character transformation.
506
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:09.480
Because in a story that you're writing for a novel or a film, you're not quite so much
507
00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:13.680
interested in the takeaway message because that's really important for persuaders.
508
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.240
That takeaway message is clear.
509
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.160
It's much more about what the character's learning about, what it is to be a human.
510
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:20.160
Much more profound lessons.
511
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:23.720
It's not about by this Apple product or by this trainer or vote for this party.
512
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:25.040
It's like, what does it mean to be humans?
513
00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:26.760
I don't think there's any fundamental difference.
514
00:28:26.760 --> 00:28:32.880
I mean, it's stories and accounts of a character or characters overcoming an obstacle in pursuit
515
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.960
of a goal and learning something.
516
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:35.960
That's fundamental.
517
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:39.480
All storytelling is, archetypal storytelling is, of course, there's modernist versions
518
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.360
of story, which play with that.
519
00:28:42.360 --> 00:28:44.360
Yeah, that's great advice.
520
00:28:44.360 --> 00:28:48.520
And I think you put your finger on something important there that in business storytelling,
521
00:28:48.520 --> 00:28:50.080
there's usually next step, right?
522
00:28:50.080 --> 00:28:53.920
I want my team to do something, I want the customer to buy my product.
523
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.720
You know, we need to take certain actions, whereas in the, let's say I'm watching a movie,
524
00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:58.720
there's no action.
525
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:02.280
I watched the movie and as soon as, as long as I'm entertained, you know, the creators
526
00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:05.920
are probably happy that are, you know, paid a few bucks at the box office.
527
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:06.920
That's right.
528
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:11.000
But even in those kinds of films, there's often a subconscious bit of persuasion going
529
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:12.000
on.
530
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.280
And when, when psychologists study the effects of storytelling and we transported into
531
00:29:15.280 --> 00:29:19.600
a film or a movie, our values align with the hero, with the protagonist and the things
532
00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:22.960
that we learn, the things that the protagonist learned, we also learn with them.
533
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.880
And that's the story doing its evolutionary job of teaching us who to be, and teaching
534
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.480
us how to be, and teaching us to be more cooperative.
535
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:34.120
Like it's no coincidence that heroes, the end of a story, are more cooperative than
536
00:29:34.120 --> 00:29:37.880
they were at the beginning of the story, they're more celebrated, they're often more value
537
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:38.880
to their groups.
538
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:41.640
And that's what, that's the propaganda that stories constantly playing on us.
539
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:45.000
So consciously, it's always wanting us to become a more cooperative member of the group
540
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:47.200
by saying, this is what a hero is.
541
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.520
This is what a hero does.
542
00:29:48.520 --> 00:29:52.080
And in that way, it's no different from a marketing campaign or a, you know, a get-out
543
00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:53.080
vote campaign.
544
00:29:53.080 --> 00:29:54.080
Awesome.
545
00:29:54.080 --> 00:29:55.080
A crisis, right?
546
00:29:55.080 --> 00:29:57.280
In the crisis situation, storytelling is incredibly important.
547
00:29:57.280 --> 00:30:02.000
I often say in trainings that a crisis is an evolving story and you now have to make
548
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.960
sure you're not the villain.
549
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:04.960
That's right.
550
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:09.160
And I think one of the most fundamental sort of insights that comes from the science
551
00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:13.720
of storytelling is the importance of this binary of selfless versus selfish.
552
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:19.280
You know, when researchers look at morality, what is morality, you know, why are we moral
553
00:30:19.280 --> 00:30:20.280
creatures uniquely?
554
00:30:20.280 --> 00:30:21.680
We have this moral sense.
555
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:27.040
So wherever you go in the world, immoral behavior is basically selfish behavior.
556
00:30:27.040 --> 00:30:30.280
And what selfish behavior is, like, I'm going to put my own interest before that of
557
00:30:30.280 --> 00:30:32.120
the super organism, that of the group.
558
00:30:32.120 --> 00:30:35.880
And so one of the biggest insights in crisis communication is that you've got to absolutely
559
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:42.160
avoid any sense of selfishness because selfishness is cancer, like it's a toxin.
560
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:46.160
People are highly attuned to it because of our tribal nature.
561
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:49.840
And you know, the classic example of that is the BP Tony Haywood thing where, where, you
562
00:30:49.840 --> 00:30:54.440
know, billions and billions of times, giving up his spill.
563
00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:58.280
And he said, you know, nobody wants to overmorthen, I do, I'd like my life back, which on
564
00:30:58.280 --> 00:31:00.000
a human level is completely understandable.
565
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.200
Well, this is the worst time of his life, you know, but it killed him, you know, he even
566
00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:08.440
had a president Obama commenting about what an evil villain he was.
567
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:09.440
Well, thank you so much.
568
00:31:09.560 --> 00:31:10.720
This was my last question.
569
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.280
What's your best piece of communications advice?
570
00:31:13.280 --> 00:31:20.160
Best piece of communications advice would be, yeah, just to completely understand the
571
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.720
people that you're trying to communicate with and not just understand them, understand
572
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:25.400
this best story world.
573
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:26.320
What do they want?
574
00:31:26.320 --> 00:31:27.200
Why do they want it?
575
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:28.200
Who are their heroes?
576
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:29.200
Who are their villains?
577
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:30.200
How do they talk?
578
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:36.440
Really in habit, the perception of the story world, and you'll be able to appeal to them.
579
00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:37.960
That's such great advice.
580
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:39.000
Well, Storl, thank you so much.
581
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000
Thanks so much, Oliver.
582
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:41.000
Thanks for watching.
583
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.880
If you liked this episode, please subscribe to the Speak Like A CEO channel.
584
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:49.520
It means the world to me and it helps us keep bringing you world class insights and guests.