Rewriting Stories: Identity, Shame, & Connection | Ft Dr. Kevin Whisman

WEBVTT
00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:05.169
Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm
00:00:05.169 --> 00:00:07.389
Josh Negron, and this show's all about sharing
00:00:07.389 --> 00:00:11.109
lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your
00:00:11.109 --> 00:00:13.970
thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you
00:00:13.970 --> 00:00:17.050
to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in.
00:00:20.589 --> 00:00:23.230
All right, welcome back, folks. Today, I have
00:00:23.230 --> 00:00:25.570
a dear friend of mine, Kevin Wissman. Welcome
00:00:25.570 --> 00:00:27.949
to the show, sir. Thank you. Thanks for having
00:00:27.949 --> 00:00:30.989
me, Josh. Absolutely. It is an honor. Sir, tell
00:00:30.989 --> 00:00:32.789
us a little bit about yourself, what you do and
00:00:32.789 --> 00:00:35.850
what you're about. Absolutely. So first and foremost,
00:00:36.009 --> 00:00:39.210
I guess I'm a husband and a dad. I think that's
00:00:39.210 --> 00:00:40.530
probably the most important thing that's qualified
00:00:40.530 --> 00:00:43.689
me for life for the most part. As a profession,
00:00:43.990 --> 00:00:46.810
I am a psychologist. So I've been practicing
00:00:46.810 --> 00:00:49.350
as a licensed psychologist for 26 years and I've
00:00:49.350 --> 00:00:52.289
had the pleasure of actually working for Hope
00:00:52.289 --> 00:00:55.229
City Church for the past five years as their
00:00:55.229 --> 00:00:57.890
director of counseling and emotional health.
00:00:58.049 --> 00:01:01.369
Yes, such good stuff. So in light of that, I
00:01:01.369 --> 00:01:04.469
want to ask you a specific question. your profession.
00:01:04.689 --> 00:01:07.349
This show is all about optimizing and taking
00:01:07.349 --> 00:01:09.750
people from where they are to the next level,
00:01:09.890 --> 00:01:13.090
which is obviously unique to everyone. So you're
00:01:13.090 --> 00:01:16.250
going to see people ranging from rock bottom
00:01:16.250 --> 00:01:19.090
to others who are looking to help with one specific
00:01:19.090 --> 00:01:21.370
challenge they can't get past or hang up maybe
00:01:21.370 --> 00:01:23.629
to people just coming to you like an oil change,
00:01:23.829 --> 00:01:26.109
like, hey, our marriage is good. Just want to
00:01:26.109 --> 00:01:28.209
see what's up. Like, do you see anything? How
00:01:28.209 --> 00:01:30.450
do you discern what to ask, what to reflect,
00:01:30.569 --> 00:01:33.060
or maybe even what to suggest? That's a great
00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:35.299
question. So I think what I tell everybody when
00:01:35.299 --> 00:01:37.060
they first come see me, so we'll just set this
00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:38.840
up kind of like this is the first time we've
00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:40.939
ever met, Josh. So you're sitting on my couch
00:01:40.939 --> 00:01:42.620
now, right? You just entered into the office.
00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:45.140
And I'll say something like this of like, I believe
00:01:45.140 --> 00:01:47.840
that life is a story. I believe that God is the
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.840
author of the story. But in the context of story,
00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:53.140
there are all kinds of things that take place.
00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:54.739
There's all kinds of chaos. There's all kinds
00:01:54.739 --> 00:01:57.680
of confusion and maybe even a little bit of craziness
00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.299
from time to time. So my job is to help people
00:02:00.299 --> 00:02:02.849
understand the story. that they have found themselves
00:02:02.849 --> 00:02:05.890
in. So ultimately, where we begin is just what
00:02:05.890 --> 00:02:08.490
brings you in. And then from there, we're able
00:02:08.490 --> 00:02:12.050
to typically take things back to their past.
00:02:12.310 --> 00:02:14.490
There's something within their story that they're
00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:17.250
trying to resolve still. And that's where we
00:02:17.250 --> 00:02:19.150
begin to understand the chaos and the confusion
00:02:19.150 --> 00:02:22.469
and even the craziness. So loosely used term.
00:02:22.590 --> 00:02:25.530
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I've referenced
00:02:25.530 --> 00:02:29.409
before that clinical concept of how when someone
00:02:29.409 --> 00:02:32.789
experiences something traumatic, that in that
00:02:32.789 --> 00:02:35.469
segment of their life, when they experience things
00:02:35.469 --> 00:02:37.949
that are similar to that, it's almost like, you
00:02:37.949 --> 00:02:40.169
know, it's easy to look at that person when they
00:02:40.169 --> 00:02:42.830
seem to act out to label that their behavior
00:02:42.830 --> 00:02:45.349
maybe as childish, you know, but there might
00:02:45.349 --> 00:02:47.629
be something there. Can you explain in a much
00:02:47.629 --> 00:02:51.090
better way, like what that is, why that happens,
00:02:51.229 --> 00:02:54.030
and just how the phenomenon works? Yeah, I think
00:02:54.030 --> 00:02:55.889
first thing I would do is just go back to even
00:02:55.889 --> 00:02:58.610
define at least the way that I understand trauma,
00:02:58.729 --> 00:03:02.610
right? Trauma is anything that we encounter outside
00:03:02.610 --> 00:03:05.330
of God's original intent in the garden. So when
00:03:05.330 --> 00:03:07.550
we begin to take a look at that, it's not always
00:03:07.550 --> 00:03:10.969
just these major defining moments that have taken
00:03:10.969 --> 00:03:13.729
place in life. It's not even that anything significantly
00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:16.370
bad has happened, but maybe it's something of
00:03:16.370 --> 00:03:18.870
where something really good could have happened
00:03:18.870 --> 00:03:22.860
and it didn't. So maybe I was listening to another
00:03:22.860 --> 00:03:25.719
podcast recently and the guy that was speaking
00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:28.879
on that, Michael Cusick, made the comment that
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:32.219
in a lot of the counseling that he does, a third
00:03:32.219 --> 00:03:34.060
of the people will come in with these capital
00:03:34.060 --> 00:03:36.259
T traumas of like they know that something has
00:03:36.259 --> 00:03:37.860
happened and they know that that's the source
00:03:37.860 --> 00:03:41.099
of everything. Except the other two thirds. will
00:03:41.099 --> 00:03:43.259
come in and they begin to recognize of like,
00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.900
they grew up in a home and everything was really
00:03:45.900 --> 00:03:48.400
good, but it became about the only way that they
00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.879
found acceptance or belonging or nurturance was
00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:54.060
through their performance. And two thirds of
00:03:54.060 --> 00:03:55.979
those guys will come in and like, no, things
00:03:55.979 --> 00:03:57.960
are great. Look at me, look at how well life
00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:00.379
is going. But then they begin to recognize if
00:04:00.379 --> 00:04:02.639
maybe they grew up in a home that was less than
00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:05.259
nurturing. So it's not that anything bad happened.
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:07.919
It's just nothing good necessarily did happen.
00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:10.750
And that then leads to trauma. and the things
00:04:10.750 --> 00:04:12.389
that we begin to believe about ourselves and
00:04:12.389 --> 00:04:14.849
the stories that we tell ourselves of how we
00:04:14.849 --> 00:04:18.129
want to be seen. And that can get us into some
00:04:18.129 --> 00:04:20.129
of that confusion and chaos if we're not careful.
00:04:21.009 --> 00:04:26.310
What are the most common lower T traumas that
00:04:26.310 --> 00:04:28.670
you encounter? Not the big stuff, but what do
00:04:28.670 --> 00:04:31.170
you find is the most common that people are blind
00:04:31.170 --> 00:04:33.310
to, that they don't know, they're not aware of?
00:04:33.689 --> 00:04:36.250
Another guy I like to listen to is Dan Allender.
00:04:36.350 --> 00:04:38.529
And he says that we're all created for delight
00:04:38.529 --> 00:04:41.439
and honor. So again, we can take a look at that
00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:44.579
from just a story perspective in the growing
00:04:44.579 --> 00:04:48.120
up years of where was delight in you missed?
00:04:48.339 --> 00:04:51.879
Where was honoring you missed? And oftentimes
00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:55.779
the trauma is really when one of those things
00:04:55.779 --> 00:04:59.220
didn't happen. So it's small things, right? Of
00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:02.399
like that, that begins to create within us a
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.959
question of our identity in who we are, who we
00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.779
believe we are. That's what I go after then.
00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:13.139
I think in the counseling world is really about
00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:16.000
identity and what voices are we listening to?
00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.600
What are we believing to be true? What is the
00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:22.000
origin story that first created this lie that
00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.600
maybe we're not good enough or that we are a
00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:26.800
failure and that those are, we weren't accepted,
00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.600
right? So those are the things that I would say
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.300
are common themes that most people aren't necessarily
00:05:33.300 --> 00:05:35.970
aware of. They're often looking for that. capital
00:05:35.970 --> 00:05:38.189
T trauma, you know, the physical abuse, the sexual
00:05:38.189 --> 00:05:41.970
abuse, the tornadoes, you know, fires, the natural
00:05:41.970 --> 00:05:45.750
disasters, types of things. Divorce. Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:49.569
Parents divorce. Yep. For sure. So then another
00:05:49.569 --> 00:05:53.089
facet to all this is the concept of shame, right?
00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:57.329
And so how do you view how shame works most often
00:05:57.329 --> 00:06:01.019
to really limit people or hold them back? Yeah,
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.160
shame is that very thing. Again, this is that
00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:05.740
identity thing. Shame says that you are bad,
00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:07.939
right? And we begin to believe that we are bad.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:11.139
And I really borrow from Brene Brown on this.
00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:12.680
One of the things that she taught me in one of
00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.379
her books was that one, we all have shame. right?
00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.120
None of us have made it to this point where we
00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:20.680
haven't experienced some level of shame. And
00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:23.420
shame, I believe, was that very first human condition.
00:06:23.579 --> 00:06:26.220
In the garden, man and woman were both naked
00:06:26.220 --> 00:06:28.480
and they felt no shame, right? But as soon as
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:30.279
their eyes were open because of the decisions
00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:32.060
that they made, they recognized their nakedness
00:06:32.060 --> 00:06:34.420
and they began to hide. And we all then... want
00:06:34.420 --> 00:06:36.879
to hide, right? We go into the shadows in this
00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:38.540
shame and that's what shame will make us do.
00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:41.899
So we all have it. None of us want to talk about
00:06:41.899 --> 00:06:44.300
our shame and the less that we talk about it,
00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.660
the more power it ends up having. So when we
00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:50.459
begin to even approach shame in our stories,
00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.920
we're bringing it much closer into the light
00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:56.920
and it begins to create a sense of freedom and
00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:00.079
a new discovery on who we really are. Absolutely.
00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.980
So in today's age, statistics seem to suggest
00:07:03.980 --> 00:07:07.319
that people are more willing to go to therapy
00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:10.300
than ever. However, conversely, there seems to
00:07:10.300 --> 00:07:13.339
be more depression and anxiety than ever as well.
00:07:13.660 --> 00:07:17.100
Obviously, it's not that binary where it's not
00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:19.959
a correlative relationship. So how do you see
00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:24.879
that trend as a clinician? How do you interpret
00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.250
that? That's a great question, because having
00:07:27.250 --> 00:07:30.930
done this for 26 years, I've been able to witness
00:07:30.930 --> 00:07:34.589
just the changing of our society and our world
00:07:34.589 --> 00:07:36.889
in a lot of ways. Right. So where I'm going to
00:07:36.889 --> 00:07:38.629
take that is the advancement of the Internet,
00:07:38.829 --> 00:07:41.410
then went to technology in and of itself that
00:07:41.410 --> 00:07:44.029
went to the smartphones in 2008, which went to,
00:07:44.029 --> 00:07:47.389
you know, children receiving smartphones by the
00:07:47.389 --> 00:07:49.709
time now they're six to eight years old, I think
00:07:49.709 --> 00:07:51.250
is what's average. And then we're starting to
00:07:51.250 --> 00:07:53.610
see that uptick in anxiety and depression based
00:07:53.610 --> 00:07:56.399
upon their social media use. So to be the old
00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:58.500
curmudgeon of like, this is the thing where I'm
00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:00.620
starting to see of like what we're what we're
00:08:00.620 --> 00:08:03.439
experiencing is we're the most connected we've
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.560
ever been from a technological standpoint. However,
00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:10.600
we're the most disconnected that we've ever been
00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:14.800
because we loneliness is that thing that the
00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.459
what it's become an epidemic here recently, even
00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:19.620
in that loneliness. I think the Surgeon General
00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:22.160
announced that a couple of years ago. loneliness
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.639
being this epidemic. So it's interesting to see
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.879
that anxiety and depression are on that rise.
00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:28.639
And I do think it has everything to do with we
00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.379
want, it goes back to these ideas of attachment
00:08:31.379 --> 00:08:33.679
and of like, we want to be seen, we want to be
00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:36.419
accepted, we want to blah, blah. And I just don't
00:08:36.419 --> 00:08:38.720
know that we're doing that face to face in the
00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.139
presence of another as much as we are posting
00:08:41.139 --> 00:08:44.440
on social media. When you see social media, the
00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:47.179
content that's on there, obviously, there's a
00:08:47.179 --> 00:08:49.480
lot of data that talks about how negative news
00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.440
or content seems to spread much faster than positive
00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:56.679
content. So when you're sitting across from somebody
00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:00.500
that you know this is a part of their limitation,
00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:03.500
what are the most common practical ways that
00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:06.100
you give people to kind of lessen the negative
00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:09.379
effects of those mediums? Okay, so here's one
00:09:09.379 --> 00:09:11.320
of the most difficult things, right, is because
00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.200
of all the social media that we're receiving,
00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:15.419
all the posts that we are doing, like just the
00:09:15.419 --> 00:09:18.960
constant scrolling that people are engaging in
00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:21.159
is actually, I believe that to be like an addictive
00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:24.179
type of cycle. The brain is constantly searching
00:09:24.179 --> 00:09:26.860
for something new and something novel, and we
00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:30.379
find ourselves escaping from the daily hassles
00:09:30.379 --> 00:09:34.019
into a numbing type of activity on these things,
00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:37.159
and we receive in that these dopamine hits, which
00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:39.059
is the feel. good neurotransmitter, the chemical
00:09:39.059 --> 00:09:42.159
in the brain, and it becomes an addiction. And
00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:44.940
when I ask people of like, hey, have you considered
00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:48.299
just fasting from social media for a day? It
00:09:48.299 --> 00:09:51.080
becomes a huge challenge. 10 minutes, right?
00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:54.159
Just asking people to set their phones down for
00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.600
10 minutes is an uncomfortable activity. Asking
00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:59.919
them to go to a restaurant and sit across from
00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:02.740
their spouse and not take their phones in just
00:10:02.740 --> 00:10:05.139
so they have. eye contact and they're face to
00:10:05.139 --> 00:10:07.299
face and they're having real conversation is
00:10:07.299 --> 00:10:09.860
uncomfortable for people. So it's a challenge.
00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:11.559
But those are some of the practical things I
00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:13.360
will encourage people to do because it begins
00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.919
to help us recognize how much our brains are
00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:19.440
being shaped and molded by technology, media.
00:10:19.820 --> 00:10:22.919
That's so true. And, you know, it's funny how
00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.440
you phrase that towards the end where you mentioned
00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.059
that tech is unfortunately what is. taking people
00:10:31.059 --> 00:10:34.720
away from face -to -face interaction. When earlier
00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:36.899
you mentioned that that's the very thing that
00:10:36.899 --> 00:10:39.220
is contributing, like that's what we all crave.
00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.179
And yet that's not what we're getting. It's this
00:10:42.179 --> 00:10:45.379
artificial version and it, and just, just how
00:10:45.379 --> 00:10:47.899
destructive that can be to, to adding loneliness
00:10:47.899 --> 00:10:51.480
to the equation. Yeah, no, it's what, so Kurt
00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:53.700
Thompson, another name I'll throw out there,
00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.460
a guy that I like says that we were all born
00:10:56.460 --> 00:10:59.840
into a world looking for someone. looking for
00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:03.179
us. So born into a world, looking for someone,
00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:05.879
looking for us. Now anytime Kurt speaks, he's
00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:07.360
one of those, I got to kind of slow down. So
00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.080
that's why I repeated it twice so people can
00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.019
really hear that, right? Because then when we
00:11:11.019 --> 00:11:14.259
begin to take a look at even the creation story,
00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:17.480
the way that I see this of like, it says that
00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:21.000
God shaped man out of the dust of the earth and
00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:23.559
he breathed into him the breath of life and he
00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:26.240
became a living being. And then I just picture
00:11:26.779 --> 00:11:29.299
that scene. And the very first thing that man
00:11:29.299 --> 00:11:33.799
saw, face of God. And the very thing that we
00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:38.019
witness when babies are born is they begin to
00:11:38.019 --> 00:11:40.600
turn their heads. They begin looking around for
00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:43.419
the voices that they have known. So they're looking
00:11:43.419 --> 00:11:45.840
for eye contact with mom. They're looking for
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.059
eye contact with dad and their siblings of like,
00:11:48.100 --> 00:11:50.980
this is true. So from attachment theory, we begin
00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:53.409
to even say of like, this is a. cradle to grave
00:11:53.409 --> 00:11:56.129
type of thing. And, you know, we're constantly
00:11:56.129 --> 00:11:59.710
looking for that attachment and that connection
00:11:59.710 --> 00:12:02.629
with others from the beginning of life to the
00:12:02.629 --> 00:12:04.809
end of life. And even, you know, it is ironic,
00:12:04.889 --> 00:12:06.809
like you and I are sitting here now and, you
00:12:06.809 --> 00:12:09.870
know, we're looking at one another. But one of
00:12:09.870 --> 00:12:13.169
the things I refuse to do is the telehealth therapy
00:12:13.169 --> 00:12:15.970
in most cases, because if I'm not in the room
00:12:15.970 --> 00:12:19.570
with somebody, I don't sense them. and their
00:12:19.570 --> 00:12:23.029
emotional state as well as when they are with
00:12:23.029 --> 00:12:26.190
me. And that just goes back to the idea of loneliness,
00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:28.350
you know, of like, we need to actually be sitting
00:12:28.350 --> 00:12:31.929
in the presence with people in their joy and
00:12:31.929 --> 00:12:34.470
in their pain. And we need to be able to connect
00:12:34.470 --> 00:12:36.629
with them in that. That probably helps in the
00:12:36.629 --> 00:12:38.970
healing process too, because it's more genuine.
00:12:39.429 --> 00:12:42.669
Yeah. Well, in talking about artificial things
00:12:42.669 --> 00:12:45.409
and things that are not as real, I mean, you
00:12:45.409 --> 00:12:49.210
and I have actually talked about how If artificial
00:12:49.210 --> 00:12:52.470
intelligence is prompted well, you can get some
00:12:52.470 --> 00:12:55.649
really, really cool responses out of it from
00:12:55.649 --> 00:12:58.700
a therapy like... you know, perspective, you
00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:00.360
know, be like, Hey, I need you to act like a
00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:04.279
CBT, you know, certified therapist and kind of
00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:07.740
go into it. Um, what, what kind of thoughts do
00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:10.440
you have just initially about, you know, people
00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:13.500
are using it like a therapist. Um, what, what
00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:15.559
thoughts do you have? This is really cool, but
00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:17.779
it's also really, there's some angst there. Like,
00:13:17.779 --> 00:13:20.419
so what are your thoughts on that? No, it is.
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.169
I love how. At least the flow of our conversation
00:13:23.169 --> 00:13:25.009
has led to this point then too, right? Of like,
00:13:25.049 --> 00:13:27.730
I've used AI. It's amazing. It really is. But
00:13:27.730 --> 00:13:29.590
exactly what we're saying though, of like AI
00:13:29.590 --> 00:13:31.870
will be able to share with you from a perspective
00:13:31.870 --> 00:13:35.350
of CBT therapy or even attachment therapy or
00:13:35.350 --> 00:13:37.490
emotion focused therapy, right? Of like, it can
00:13:37.490 --> 00:13:39.830
really help you understand things. But again,
00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:42.370
what's lacking in that is the presence of another
00:13:42.370 --> 00:13:46.100
person. And I truly believe that a lot of the
00:13:46.100 --> 00:13:49.340
healing takes place just in the presence of another.
00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:51.279
Because let's go back to even our conversation
00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:54.220
of shame, right? Of like, if we are really dealing
00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:56.779
with shame being our identity and it's saying
00:13:56.779 --> 00:13:59.039
that we're bad, and yet, you know, we have this
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:03.080
AI that's helping us walk through a new identity
00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:06.179
and things, we're still not able to make those
00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:08.580
confessions or make those statements that we've
00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:11.830
been withholding aloud to another person. And
00:14:11.830 --> 00:14:13.990
even in my own walk and journey of like the thing
00:14:13.990 --> 00:14:16.929
that helped me heal the most was being able to
00:14:16.929 --> 00:14:20.129
say out loud the very thing that I thought I
00:14:20.129 --> 00:14:23.070
could never say out loud and being received by
00:14:23.070 --> 00:14:25.009
the other person that I was speaking that to.
00:14:25.210 --> 00:14:28.629
Right. So I think that would be my biggest challenge.
00:14:28.710 --> 00:14:30.629
I don't know what research says on any of this,
00:14:30.690 --> 00:14:34.690
but I think AI will create problems in the therapeutic
00:14:34.690 --> 00:14:39.500
modality when it lacks presence. Yeah. Yeah,
00:14:39.500 --> 00:14:41.919
because you don't have that connection. You're
00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.340
not able to free yourself from shame because,
00:14:44.419 --> 00:14:46.220
again, you haven't shared anything with anyone,
00:14:46.419 --> 00:14:49.740
actually. Man, that's so true. I have a concern
00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:53.559
about, because you hear these cases where the
00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:55.580
AI companies have gotten in trouble because their
00:14:55.580 --> 00:14:59.200
model has agreed or led someone down a path of
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.240
like, yeah, maybe you should do some things that
00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:04.419
aren't great. A word I can't say for you two.
00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:08.769
And so I think the way I view it is there's a
00:15:08.769 --> 00:15:12.370
neuroscientist I heard speak about when she was
00:15:12.370 --> 00:15:15.309
doing her own therapy that when she was in a
00:15:15.309 --> 00:15:19.769
broken state that she saw a ton of value in the
00:15:19.769 --> 00:15:22.509
language she used was she was able to take her
00:15:22.509 --> 00:15:25.509
brain and hand it to another person with a healthy
00:15:25.509 --> 00:15:28.570
brain and they could kind of articulate some
00:15:28.570 --> 00:15:30.870
things for her and hand it back to her in a way
00:15:30.870 --> 00:15:33.370
that she could understand and that helped her
00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:36.659
heal. And so what that kind of says to me is
00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:39.860
it's a process of reflection. You're sharing
00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:42.399
with somebody who's not in it with you, who can
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:46.000
reflect back in a healthy way on maybe what some
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.779
avenues and paths and simply just sometimes understanding
00:15:49.779 --> 00:15:53.379
on how to move past it. And so my concerns with
00:15:53.379 --> 00:15:57.820
AI and that, with that idea. is why would artificial
00:15:57.820 --> 00:16:00.960
intelligence lead someone to some conclusions
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:05.379
that a human would never do? And I wonder if,
00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.080
because we've all used AI, prompted it poorly,
00:16:08.259 --> 00:16:11.120
and the result is just garbage. And you're like,
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:13.840
okay, I know it's me because it can be great
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.000
at times. So my prompt was just lazy, so I need
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.600
to figure this out. So I wonder, when someone's
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.860
in high distress, what are their abilities to
00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:27.240
prompt AI well and give it, proper context, give
00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.179
it healthy context. And so I see that they're
00:16:30.179 --> 00:16:32.960
not, they have that unhealthy brain she was describing.
00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:36.100
They're handing it to AI and who knows what spiral
00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:38.340
could result from that. So what do you, like,
00:16:38.379 --> 00:16:40.879
how do you see that? What do you think? I know
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.200
you're bringing up questions and thoughts that
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.899
I haven't even pondered yet, right? Like, that's
00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:49.399
just fascinating of how you're even explaining
00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.759
that. So I think where I would really fall back
00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:58.090
is this idea of the lack of the presence of another
00:16:58.090 --> 00:17:01.450
person. If a person is in a dysregulated state
00:17:01.450 --> 00:17:04.029
and they're searching AI, then chances are the
00:17:04.029 --> 00:17:05.650
information they would receive, that's what you're
00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:07.650
saying, right? May not be the best for them.
00:17:07.789 --> 00:17:10.890
So who is then speaking into them of like, have
00:17:10.890 --> 00:17:14.210
you considered these things? Like who's, okay,
00:17:14.329 --> 00:17:16.630
let's go to this of like, one of the phrases
00:17:16.630 --> 00:17:19.730
I like to teach people is before we ever direct
00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:22.250
somebody, we have to connect with them first.
00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:25.910
So we have to. to emotionally connect, right?
00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:29.710
Right brain hemisphere to right hemisphere. Those
00:17:29.710 --> 00:17:33.569
are emotional things. And AI lacks the ability,
00:17:33.829 --> 00:17:36.509
I would assume, to be able to connect with an
00:17:36.509 --> 00:17:39.230
individual emotionally. But when we're able to
00:17:39.230 --> 00:17:41.410
connect with a person emotionally, we're able
00:17:41.410 --> 00:17:44.549
to help regulate them. So if they've been dysregulated,
00:17:44.609 --> 00:17:46.849
now we're able to regulate them. Now they're
00:17:46.849 --> 00:17:49.960
at a place where they... feel seen they know
00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:52.680
their sooth and now they're safe in that situation
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.900
and we can now speak to them with logic to redirect
00:17:56.900 --> 00:18:00.420
so that's the thing that comes to mind if i were
00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:03.279
to think that through a little bit more like
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.220
we're not able to connect with ai in that way
00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:09.559
yeah yeah that makes total sense because ai seems
00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:14.079
to always go go for the jugular right like if
00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:18.059
i if i don't tell it to wait Like, if I want
00:18:18.059 --> 00:18:20.859
to write a high quality blog post, I need to
00:18:20.859 --> 00:18:22.940
tell it a lot of things before we get to that
00:18:22.940 --> 00:18:25.539
stage. And then I probably am going to prompt
00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:28.240
it multiple times. So my first half of the prompts
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.579
are going to always be like, hey, don't write
00:18:30.579 --> 00:18:32.859
it. I want to tell you some things beforehand,
00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:35.619
right? And so I picture the therapy piece being
00:18:35.619 --> 00:18:38.180
pretty similar to where, you know, you want to
00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:40.940
share something before you even get halfway through
00:18:40.940 --> 00:18:44.150
what human would want to know. Yeah. It's going
00:18:44.150 --> 00:18:46.470
to take what you're willing to offer, probably
00:18:46.470 --> 00:18:48.569
the first morsel of it, and then be like, sweet,
00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.210
all right, let's do it. That's very, very true.
00:18:52.410 --> 00:18:54.150
Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think that's the best
00:18:54.150 --> 00:18:57.730
recipe, but it's just so easy, right? It's so
00:18:57.730 --> 00:19:00.910
easy, but isn't that even what we escape into,
00:19:01.089 --> 00:19:03.369
right? Of like, again, I go back to even the
00:19:03.369 --> 00:19:06.309
garden and original sin of like, there were two
00:19:06.309 --> 00:19:09.150
trees. the tree of knowledge and then the tree
00:19:09.150 --> 00:19:11.849
of life. And it's like, we want knowledge and
00:19:11.849 --> 00:19:14.089
that's all left hemisphere activity. But oftentimes
00:19:14.089 --> 00:19:16.809
like our most difficult struggles are coming
00:19:16.809 --> 00:19:19.930
from, you know, uh, the lower brain and the right
00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:23.289
side of we're dysregulated because of something
00:19:23.289 --> 00:19:27.369
we've experienced. And we're just, we're, we're
00:19:27.369 --> 00:19:30.690
wanting life, but we're just going about it through
00:19:30.690 --> 00:19:33.819
knowledge as opposed to truth. Yeah, for sure.
00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.920
In the light of challenge, obviously we know
00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:40.019
that that change can be something that propels
00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:42.859
people to better levels. The concept of like
00:19:42.859 --> 00:19:46.160
embracing discomfort, right? That progress is
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.700
typically not going to be found in your own comfort.
00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.140
It's usually the inverse of that from a conceptual
00:19:52.140 --> 00:19:54.960
standpoint. And so in your practice, how do you
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.099
view that concept? How do you employ it to help
00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:01.700
people? Like we just transitioned from The ease
00:20:01.700 --> 00:20:05.099
of something like using AI for therapy and its
00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:07.960
shortcomings. Easy usually doesn't mean beneficial,
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.619
right? It's the things that are hard to do. Yeah,
00:20:11.619 --> 00:20:14.670
and I mean... The way that I've began to start
00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:16.569
conceptualizing this though, too, of like, let's
00:20:16.569 --> 00:20:19.049
just go back to, you know, marriages of like
00:20:19.049 --> 00:20:21.470
when there's conflict, where, where there's tension
00:20:21.470 --> 00:20:24.589
within that of like, that's not a problem. It's
00:20:24.589 --> 00:20:26.869
also not easy, right? Of like, there's something
00:20:26.869 --> 00:20:29.509
within that. And oftentimes we will have our
00:20:29.509 --> 00:20:32.690
own way of trying to escape that, whether that's
00:20:32.690 --> 00:20:35.230
numbing out through social media or whether that's
00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:36.849
just going to the other room or whether like,
00:20:36.910 --> 00:20:39.960
whatever that is. What I'm beginning to understand
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.880
and recognize and teach people is that what that
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.460
conflict intention is, is actually an awakening
00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:48.640
of desire. There's something in there that you
00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.980
want in a healthy way, but have maybe not learned
00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:56.460
how to be able to ask for that or have avoided
00:20:56.460 --> 00:20:58.180
asking for that because you think you're too
00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:00.039
much or you're too needy or you're being selfish.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.339
But really, the uncomfortable things lead to.
00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:06.440
pleasant or the comfortable things. It just requires
00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:10.099
our willingness to step into that comfort. That
00:21:10.099 --> 00:21:13.440
made me think of when Jordan Peterson talks about
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:19.460
marriage, his content is so good. He talks about
00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:22.000
one of his phrases like, have the damn fight,
00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:24.339
right? Because he talks about how destructive
00:21:24.339 --> 00:21:27.579
something even just very small can be if not
00:21:27.579 --> 00:21:30.880
addressed. If stonewalled or avoided, again,
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.059
that's pursuing comfort over that discomfort.
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.180
And then something, he calls it the spirit of
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:39.240
something, just is allowed to grow into something
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:43.160
monstrous, to use his language, right? And he's
00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.539
like, but if you decide to just actually attack
00:21:46.539 --> 00:21:50.220
the issue and have the fight, then you can, he's
00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:53.380
like, it's hard work, especially when... Something
00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:56.460
has gone unaddressed for so long that you can
00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:58.500
really, he's like, it takes a lot of digging,
00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:02.180
but you can really get to a much deeper intimacy
00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:04.420
and understanding of that other person if you're
00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:07.859
willing to go to that depth. Absolutely. And
00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:10.259
it's always worth it, right? Because that's,
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:13.619
I will tell people that conflict is that open
00:22:13.619 --> 00:22:15.700
door. It's actually the closed door of like,
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:17.299
it's the thing that we often don't want to walk
00:22:17.299 --> 00:22:20.079
through. But when we walk through it, it... it
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.579
frees us to so much more because there's so much
00:22:22.579 --> 00:22:24.819
more on the outside of that. When we consistently
00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:28.200
avoid conflict, one of the metaphors I like to
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:31.480
use is the beach ball. And it's like, the conflict
00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:33.240
is the beach ball. And we try to keep that thing
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:35.380
held underneath the water, right? And there's
00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:38.519
so much energy that we invest in keeping that
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:40.420
thing under the water, where if we would just
00:22:40.420 --> 00:22:42.440
let that thing come up, like there's a whole
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.779
nother world to be able to see, right? And then,
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:49.299
yeah, we're able to actually be and do what we
00:22:49.299 --> 00:22:53.539
were intended to do. So, yeah. Agreed, agreed.
00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:57.619
So from a super practical standpoint, say someone's
00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:00.339
listening and there's such a broad spectrum of
00:23:00.339 --> 00:23:03.019
need, right? Again, from rock bottom all the
00:23:03.019 --> 00:23:05.059
way to, I could do things better. What would
00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:08.400
you recommend is a way that someone can self
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.079
-evaluate those things to identify the lowest
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:13.720
hanging fruit? Sometimes it's obvious. Of course.
00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:16.160
But, you know, other times, like you said earlier,
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.779
it isn't. So what are some ways that people can
00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:21.579
can identify what they need to do, what that
00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:24.220
what that next challenge needs to be and so they
00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:26.920
can go chase it? Yeah. No, I think the first
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.240
thing that I would say to answer that would be,
00:23:29.259 --> 00:23:31.960
what is it you want? What is that desire? What
00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:34.859
is that longing? What's that ache, you know,
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.079
in the heart? Like, what is that thing that you
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.980
really want? And begin to start identifying that.
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:43.180
And then I would say, what are the obstacles
00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:45.079
to that? Like, what is it that's holding you
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:47.380
back? And oftentimes when we begin to understand
00:23:47.380 --> 00:23:49.480
that things are holding us back, like we're going
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:52.190
to identify some. you know, negative self -belief
00:23:52.190 --> 00:23:53.829
if we're to go into cognitive behavioral types
00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:55.630
of therapy. But there's going to be a lie there
00:23:55.630 --> 00:23:57.750
of some kind of like, I can't do that. Nobody
00:23:57.750 --> 00:23:59.890
would appreciate me or understand me if I were
00:23:59.890 --> 00:24:02.730
to do that. It's just never worked. Here's a
00:24:02.730 --> 00:24:04.369
big one that I hear all the time, right? It's
00:24:04.369 --> 00:24:06.369
that resignation line of like, it is what it
00:24:06.369 --> 00:24:09.470
is. Like, no, it doesn't have to be. Like somewhere
00:24:09.470 --> 00:24:13.470
we've lost hope, right? Or we've lost the ability
00:24:13.470 --> 00:24:16.049
to be able to see the way things are supposed
00:24:16.049 --> 00:24:20.480
to be. So I'd say first, identify. the wants,
00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:23.460
the longings, the desires. And then we have a
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:26.599
tendency to focus on a lot of negative things.
00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:29.220
Like we see all of the negativity and all of
00:24:29.220 --> 00:24:31.619
the distractions around us. So what's one thing,
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:34.900
just name one thing in your life right now that
00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:37.420
you are thankful for, or that is lovely. That
00:24:37.420 --> 00:24:39.720
is beautiful. That is captivating of like, look
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:41.339
at these things and just pay attention and just
00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:44.700
allow that to open you up to wonder and get curious
00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:47.380
about that of like. Because that's going to help
00:24:47.380 --> 00:24:49.960
reveal some of that longing and desire that's
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.119
within. And then start identifying what are some
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:54.740
of those obstacles. And more than likely, it's
00:24:54.740 --> 00:24:56.980
going to be an I statement of some kind that's
00:24:56.980 --> 00:24:58.480
been holding you back for years. And it's going
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:00.960
to be a theme in the story. And when you go back
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.819
and start to unpack the theme of the story, you'll
00:25:02.819 --> 00:25:06.079
see where that thought first came from. And then
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:09.640
some healing can take place in those areas. So
00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:14.480
that's a lot. It's not easy. But that's where
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:16.839
I would tell people to start. Yeah. Yeah, for
00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:19.059
sure. Well, and because that could be a lot for
00:25:19.059 --> 00:25:22.299
some people, how do they know when, when they
00:25:22.299 --> 00:25:24.440
can't do it themselves? Like when, like they
00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.599
need to go to a professional, right? Well, you're
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:29.119
asking the wrong guy, right? Because this is
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:33.519
what I've been doing. I've been that guy, right?
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:35.259
And again, it goes back to even what we were
00:25:35.259 --> 00:25:38.140
talking about and relate in regards to just attachment
00:25:38.140 --> 00:25:39.960
of like, we were never intended to do this alone.
00:25:41.470 --> 00:25:43.009
There's none of this that can be done alone.
00:25:43.410 --> 00:25:47.190
Like, no, we need others and we need relationship
00:25:47.190 --> 00:25:50.490
with others and not, you know, just two, three
00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:53.210
people in your life that can just really be present
00:25:53.210 --> 00:25:55.450
with you. So that's what I would say. It doesn't
00:25:55.450 --> 00:25:57.410
have to be, you know, a therapist that you go
00:25:57.410 --> 00:26:00.609
see. It could be. But no, who are the two or
00:26:00.609 --> 00:26:02.569
three people in your life that you can really
00:26:02.569 --> 00:26:06.309
be fully seen and truly known, completely vulnerable,
00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:09.049
no shame, you know, no condemnation of just.
00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:11.559
being present with them of like, if you don't
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:14.940
have those people, then okay. What's holding
00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:16.720
you back? Like, cause that's a longing. It's
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.180
a desire. I think we're wired for it. I think
00:26:18.180 --> 00:26:20.579
we're created for it. So what, what's holding
00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:24.279
you back in that and then breakthrough go for
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.539
it. Yeah. And we've covered before on the channel
00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:30.960
about how important that circle of three to five
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.140
ish people are. And then how, if that circle
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:37.099
is not healthy, then, you know, that's going
00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:39.680
to be, that's going to reflect upon. you as the
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:41.740
individual as well, you know, and it isn't just
00:26:41.740 --> 00:26:45.079
like a net worth or like a accomplishment thing,
00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:47.200
which, you know, there is that phrase of show
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.299
me, show me your network, and I'll show you your
00:26:49.299 --> 00:26:51.440
net worth, right? And so there's a lot of business
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.599
and success gurus that talk about that. And of
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:55.920
course, there's truth to that. But from a mental
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:57.880
standpoint, why wouldn't the same thing apply
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:01.099
in that regard? So if you and I've talked to
00:27:01.099 --> 00:27:03.819
people who when they start to want to improve,
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.759
and start to do mental disciplines like gratitude
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:10.400
and things like that, they start to realize actually
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:14.240
pretty quickly, usually within a month, that
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.420
they have some people in their circle that are
00:27:16.420 --> 00:27:18.720
like crabs in the bucket, right? And they're
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.960
just like, man, I can't be joyful, I can't be
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:25.000
happy, because if I say, man, it's such a beautiful
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.440
day, that person's like, yeah, but you never
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:30.019
know, this is what the government's doing, and
00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:32.960
you're like, okay, can you? Okay, I need out
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:36.509
of this. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You got
00:27:36.509 --> 00:27:38.390
to surround yourself with people who are willing
00:27:38.390 --> 00:27:41.210
to do the same, right? People can bring you down.
00:27:41.269 --> 00:27:43.609
It goes back to even for whatever reason, we
00:27:43.609 --> 00:27:45.630
have a tendency to pick up negativity rather
00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:48.109
than positivity, right? Rather than affirmations.
00:27:48.289 --> 00:27:50.650
It's just for whatever reason, it's like this
00:27:50.650 --> 00:27:52.869
thing that just sticks to us. So we got to find
00:27:52.869 --> 00:27:55.029
those people in our life that are able to see
00:27:55.029 --> 00:27:57.750
things more clearly and to awaken those desires
00:27:57.750 --> 00:28:00.769
within us. Desires are good. I don't know, somewhere
00:28:00.769 --> 00:28:03.319
we got off track. Start thinking that our desires
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:06.740
were selfish or evil, but desires are good. There's
00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:09.339
a phrase that always sticks to me because people
00:28:09.339 --> 00:28:12.319
tend to be very self -critical with the items
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:14.779
attached to their shame, right? Of course, that
00:28:14.779 --> 00:28:17.019
makes total sense. That's why people self -loathe
00:28:17.019 --> 00:28:19.400
themselves and those kinds of things. But I heard
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.920
a quote that said that every dark or sinful desire
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:27.480
is attached to a holy root. And I remember hearing
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:31.299
that. And at first I was like, no way. And then,
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:33.900
but the more you think about it, it is those
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.460
things that people desire that aren't good for
00:28:36.460 --> 00:28:40.779
them. It is always coming from something unaddressed,
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:45.180
something that they lacked or got that they didn't
00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:47.160
ask for, all of those things. And it's just,
00:28:47.259 --> 00:28:51.019
it's so, it's a mechanism that really helps understand
00:28:51.019 --> 00:28:54.289
that where things come from and that. A desire
00:28:54.289 --> 00:28:57.150
can be healthy and it doesn't need to be attached
00:28:57.150 --> 00:28:59.309
to selfishness or any of those negative things.
00:28:59.450 --> 00:29:01.450
You're spot on then because shame does get into
00:29:01.450 --> 00:29:03.430
that then too. And it's like, no, we got to have
00:29:03.430 --> 00:29:05.430
those people in our life that can walk us through
00:29:05.430 --> 00:29:08.210
that and help us recognize that, no, that's a
00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:10.730
longing that we were intended to have. Yeah.
00:29:10.990 --> 00:29:13.670
That shame or evil is spoken into for way too
00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:16.769
long. Yeah. We got to break that. Yeah. And you
00:29:16.769 --> 00:29:19.049
said something that made me think of something
00:29:19.049 --> 00:29:21.630
I had never thought about before. Okay. That
00:29:21.630 --> 00:29:26.309
is. Yeah, you said that, that negative things
00:29:26.309 --> 00:29:28.509
tend to be more sticky, right? Which we talked
00:29:28.509 --> 00:29:31.430
about before. But I had, I started asking myself
00:29:31.430 --> 00:29:34.170
why that could be. And I don't want to like,
00:29:34.190 --> 00:29:36.670
over spiritualize it or make it sound like ooh,
00:29:36.890 --> 00:29:39.930
but obviously there is, you know, you and I believe
00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:43.809
that there is a entity that is interested in
00:29:43.809 --> 00:29:47.970
the destruction of us, right? And so he's active
00:29:47.970 --> 00:29:51.049
in behind everything that's negative and evil.
00:29:51.710 --> 00:29:53.890
Because it's almost like you look at that and
00:29:53.890 --> 00:29:55.450
you're like, well, if someone says something
00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:58.670
wonderful, like a compliment, it might have an
00:29:58.670 --> 00:30:01.589
effect, may not. That's a whole other conversation,
00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:04.990
right? Accepting compliments. But one negative
00:30:04.990 --> 00:30:07.690
criticism can wipe out a thousand compliments.
00:30:07.890 --> 00:30:11.490
Why is that? And so I had wondered, there is
00:30:11.490 --> 00:30:15.369
a being who's interested in magnifying everything
00:30:15.369 --> 00:30:19.019
to get as much mileage as he can. with those
00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:21.259
things. That's just an interesting, as you were
00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:23.339
saying that I was like, man, maybe that's part
00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:25.819
of it. Oh, for sure. Yeah. The enemy comes to
00:30:25.819 --> 00:30:29.180
steal, kill and destroy. Right. And I was sitting
00:30:29.180 --> 00:30:32.319
with somebody just recently and just unpacking
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:36.299
their story. And one of the things I asked then
00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:38.960
is like, what is it that you, you wanted as this
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:42.119
12 year old? And sure enough, the words acceptance
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:44.160
and belonging came out and those, those aren't.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.059
My words that I've coached him to say, because
00:30:46.059 --> 00:30:48.500
I don't even know this individual well yet, right?
00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:52.700
Acceptance and belonging. He's been living out
00:30:52.700 --> 00:30:56.299
the story of rejection and fear of rejection,
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.880
which keeps him then bound, right? Why? Because
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.539
of this event that took place when he was young,
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.420
where he ended up believing that he was rejected,
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:10.119
that he had no particular value to anyone. And
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:14.880
that one spoken word. Or that one sentence that
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.319
took 10 seconds for that individual to speak
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:20.880
to him is still wreaking havoc 20 years later,
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:24.059
30 years later, right? And that's what Dan Allender
00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:27.480
will say is like, shame, why does it come when
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:29.460
we're so early? Because the return on investment,
00:31:29.619 --> 00:31:33.119
the 10 seconds is still playing out, you know,
00:31:33.140 --> 00:31:36.279
30, 40, 50 years later. And it's like, yeah,
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.200
it's just that whisper too. And it's like, until
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.019
we learn to stand up to that whisper and just
00:31:41.019 --> 00:31:46.579
say no. No, I choose to believe something different.
00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:50.220
I choose to believe that I am worthy, that I
00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:54.599
do have value, that I am accepted, acceptable,
00:31:54.940 --> 00:31:57.579
lovable. You know, when we begin to do that,
00:31:57.660 --> 00:32:00.740
things will begin to change. Beautiful, beautiful.
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.359
Well, Kevin, one of my favorite questions to
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:09.680
end on is, oh yeah. It's to ask what is the one
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.500
thing that you wish you could go back and tell
00:32:12.500 --> 00:32:16.940
20 -year -old Kevin to help you back then? Oh,
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:19.240
man. 20 -year -old. That's not an age that I've
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:21.980
looked at in a while. If you said 8 -year -old,
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.099
man, I would have had it, I think. Man, 20 -year
00:32:25.099 --> 00:32:29.559
-old would probably just be hang on. Hang on.
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:36.519
That was a difficult season in my life. And that's
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:38.599
a season in life where there's a lot of regret,
00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:44.220
you know, and that's probably where shame began
00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:46.819
to enter into the story even heavily or to begin
00:32:46.819 --> 00:32:49.339
to heap on a little bit, too. So if I were to
00:32:49.339 --> 00:32:55.599
look at 20 year old Kevin. Hang on. But then
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:57.259
it goes back to those value statements as well.
00:32:57.339 --> 00:33:00.559
Like you really are lovable. You really do have
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:06.339
value and worth and people. are going to need
00:33:06.339 --> 00:33:11.059
you. That's probably what I'd try to convince
00:33:11.059 --> 00:33:14.059
him. Yeah, there's that purpose statement at
00:33:14.059 --> 00:33:18.059
that end. That's awesome. Yeah. And your story
00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:19.819
matters, right? Because if I hadn't have had
00:33:19.819 --> 00:33:22.400
that story, I wouldn't have been able to sit
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:25.920
in the presence of so many individuals too, because
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:30.619
your story matters. Our scars are what are actually
00:33:30.619 --> 00:33:34.529
healing for others. It's so hard for people to
00:33:34.529 --> 00:33:37.009
believe that, especially early on, you know.
00:33:37.349 --> 00:33:40.329
Especially when you're in it, right? No joke,
00:33:40.450 --> 00:33:43.710
yeah. It's a step in the 10 steps process of
00:33:43.710 --> 00:33:46.170
helping another alcoholic for a reason. That
00:33:46.170 --> 00:33:48.970
takes, I think it can happen before step 10,
00:33:49.049 --> 00:33:51.609
honestly. It's probably more helpful that way.
00:33:51.710 --> 00:33:54.390
But something magical happens when someone takes
00:33:54.390 --> 00:33:57.450
the focus off themselves and then transitions
00:33:57.450 --> 00:34:00.710
that into, you know, even if they are just a
00:34:00.710 --> 00:34:03.529
couple steps ahead of like, hey, this is my story.
00:34:03.609 --> 00:34:05.450
This is where I am. This is how it's helped me.
00:34:05.630 --> 00:34:09.190
And then when I see them make that switch, that
00:34:09.190 --> 00:34:12.849
helps take them away from that narcissistic view
00:34:12.849 --> 00:34:16.070
and that self -focused anxiety and really helps
00:34:16.070 --> 00:34:19.769
them see the growth that they may be missing
00:34:19.769 --> 00:34:22.849
in themselves start to flourish in someone else.
00:34:22.909 --> 00:34:26.969
Like that's so, that is so powerful. It is. And
00:34:26.969 --> 00:34:32.000
yeah, rewarding. And I mean, that's part of it
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.000
too, of like when we serve others, like we're
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.380
flooded with these positive chemicals within
00:34:36.380 --> 00:34:41.119
our body that reinforce our desire to do more
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:44.280
of that. Again, it's a divine creation. It's
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.440
like it's on purpose. Yeah, for sure. Well, Kevin,
00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:49.480
I appreciate you joining us today. That was a
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.760
great conversation. Absolutely. Thanks for having
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.579
me. It was good. All right, folks. Well, thanks
00:34:54.579 --> 00:34:56.500
for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast.
00:34:56.739 --> 00:34:58.940
Remember, growth happens when you take action.
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.440
So subscribe, share this with a friend, and most
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:03.880
importantly, put what you learned into practice.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:07.119
Because as we know, daily anything changes everything.