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You're listening to the Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
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about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.
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Welcome back to another episode of the Piano Pod.
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I am Clara Zhang.
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I'm Yukimi Song.
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And I am Eric Hunter.
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Happy April and a happy Jazz Appreciation Month, fondly known as GEM, everyone.
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And do you know GEM was created by John Edward Hasse, curator of the Smithsonian's National
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Museum of American History in 2001 to recognize and celebrate the extraordinary heritage and
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history of jazz for the entire month of April.
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GEM is intended to stimulate and encourage people of all ages to learn and listen to
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jazz music.
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And today we are so excited to be interviewing world-class jazz pianist, composer, recording
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artist, educator, and my dear friend, Jim Riddle, to celebrate GEM.
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Welcome, Jim.
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Thank you so much.
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My pleasure.
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My pleasure to be here.
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Thank you so much for being on the show, Jim.
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This is a long time coming.
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We have been friends for so many years, and I'm so glad that we have this opportunity
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to do this interview professionally.
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And I just want to introduce a little bit of GEM before we officially start.
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GEM is a busy performing artist based in New York City, performing in major venues such
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as Blue Note in New York City, Japan, Italy, Jazz Standard, Birdland, and Carnegie Hall.
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He regularly performs in festivals in America, Europe, Japan, and South America, and has
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toured all around the world.
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All right.
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So I know you have accomplished so, so much in your career, Jim, but now we get into all
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these questions.
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We are so desperate that we want to ask.
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So I teach a lot of little kids, and I would like to know, in the very, very beginning,
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I'm curious, when did you decide to become a jazz musician?
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Was that the instinct in the childhood, or you just woke up one day, it's like, I'm going
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to be a jazz guy.
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What is it like?
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Yeah, it's a very good question.
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When I was, I don't know, like eight or 10 or something in that age period, I think it
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was through a few recordings that my father had, my brother had.
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Oh wow.
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But not very much.
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I mean, I was listening to pop radio and things that my older siblings were listening to,
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pop and rock.
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And there was a few jazz recordings.
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I think André Previn, the great conductor pianist, but he was also a fantastic jazz
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pianist, had a recording by him.
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Anyway, I was interested in music, and I was playing by ear, no real study.
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So you have perfect pitch.
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I see.
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No, no, I wish I did.
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But just, you know, kind of when you imitate and you copy something that you hear.
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So I was interested in music from when I was a little kid, and I was inspired by my oldest
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brother who composed a piece for his concert band in high school.
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And so I was mesmerized by what he did.
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And then, so I continued just playing and I did take some lessons from Sister Rebecca
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at the parochial school, and I quit after a couple of years.
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My father wasn't very happy, but I kept playing.
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So anyway, it leads to I became more and more interested in jazz as an early teenager.
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And then it's amazing what teachers do, because I grew up in Dickinson, North Dakota, a very
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small rural town.
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And my father had heard this pianist play with a guitar player at this local restaurant
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bar, and he really loved what they played.
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And so he asked, his name is Keith Drakware, and he asked Keith, he said, Hey, my son is,
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you know, interested in jazz, would you be willing to teach him?
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And he and he said, Well, sure.
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And so he set up a lesson.
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And I was 15 years old.
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So when I first first heard him play, I go, that's how I want to play.
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That's what I want to do.
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It was it was an immediate moment in that way.
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I mean, there was music before that.
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And then that changed my life.
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And I studied with him and he turned me on to, you know, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea,
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Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Miles Davis, etc.
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Stride players, ragtime, country music.
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And so it started me from there.
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That was my path all these years later.
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It'll be my whole life.
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Right.
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Yeah, so the influence of this teacher, Keith, and we're still in contact is that he's a
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fantastic musician and he just retired.
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He taught like high school band and stuff for concert band, etc. for many, many years.
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But it's great.
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We're still in contact.
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That is just so amazing, you know, especially for younger students.
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I think that, you know, their child or childhood teachers really sometimes mean so much, you
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know, it's, yeah, it cuts us into a place that we, you know, we just have that imagination.
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And also when you mentioned you were studying at a sister, what do you mean, sister?
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It was a Catholic grade school.
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So that's really cool.
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Even the Catholic nun, they are teaching jazz?
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Is that?
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Well, no, this wasn't jazz.
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I mean, I see.
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Yeah, no, it was no jazz.
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It was just fundamental piano.
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I got it.
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You know, so yeah, and well, they're still cool.
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We're teaching piano.
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Yes, of course.
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Yeah.
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Wow, that is so beautiful.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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I had no idea.
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I didn't know, you know, but I know we all start somewhere.
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And so we have so many questions, but I just have.
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Can I ask a question?
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Sure.
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Go ahead.
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Thanks, because the story of how you started out seems to be kind of familiar.
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I feel like a lot of jazz pianists start in the same way where they get kind of traditional
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piano lessons from a teacher and then they might lose interest a little bit and go off
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on their own for a while because for whatever reasons, I don't want to put words in your
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mouth or anything.
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But I feel like oftentimes it's because they are not allowed to express themselves creatively
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or they haven't found the sound that they're looking for.
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And then 15, you know, you're already a teenager and that was kind of like your aha moment.
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And I'm just wondering, is there anything easier?
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It seems like you had to kind of wander for a while.
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Actually, this was the case with Mike Grande also, who was on our show, and he's a rock
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musician, but it took him until he was about that age to find somebody that really clicked
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with him.
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Can we teach younger kids jazz from an earlier age?
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Or is it just by definition going to be this kind of wandering path before you get into
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it?
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Well, it's a good question.
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I think it's very different now than when I was 15, which is many, many years ago, because
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these days you have the accessibility to the music.
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It's worldwide.
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I mean, it was accessible to me in 1974, something like that.
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I mean, it's so music gets everywhere all over the world, but the accessibility now
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through the internet in particular, and, you know, YouTube and then all the literature,
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there's a million books about jazz theory, about jazz instruction, about how to play,
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who to listen to.
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There's just a wealth of things.
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So for, and I've heard this, you know, like on YouTube, when you hear like the little prodigies
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of playing not only classical music and bluegrass and things like this, but there's like amazingly
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talented, you know, even 10 year olds that are playing very sophisticated stuff.
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Obviously, they have a very tuned in ear, I think quite immediately.
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Of course, yes, you can get into, I think, the mechanics of the music much earlier, but
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still it's about the listening, you know, because the recordings, especially in jazz
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music, the recordings teach us the music both, you know, directly, but kind of in the air
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because you're listening.
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And because for me, I'll elaborate on this a little bit.
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One of my early heroes was Oscar Peterson, who you've probably heard of because he's
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one of the great jazz pianists of the 20th century into the 21st century.
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And I wore this one record out.
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And so I was very influenced by him.
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It's still in my playing, but that was through that recording.
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And so, you know, 15, it clicked for me, but certainly, yeah, I didn't know until then
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what I was going to do.
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But music was with me since I was five.
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I know that for a fact.
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So it kind of took me further.
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Excuse me.
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So yeah.
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Yeah.
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So would you say that in a way jazz education starts with listening then?
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Because I think one important distinction to make between jazz and classical is in jazz,
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the reference is the recording.
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It's the album, right?
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With classical music, you know, for Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, composers like that, they
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didn't have recording technology, obviously.
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So our reference is the score.
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Yeah.
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But I would ask you guys.
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So as you were coming up and learning, like who like say, Mozart piano concerto, and you
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go, well, who's your favorite player?
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Right plays it.
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Who's your favorite recording?
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You probably all have that relationship to them.
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Or I'm asking that that's makes sense.
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Right?
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Right.
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Of course.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Because then for me, you know, the the sound of Oscar Peterson got my playing, Herbie
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Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, all those things that are very important influences
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to shape.
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Well, first of all, to gain a vocabulary of ideas and use literally steal them if they
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were on the score.
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We're all essentially doing the same thing.
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We're taking the music and then we try and personalize it in our own way.
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So you know, all those players are in are in me.
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But then also Vladimir Horowitz, my hero, you know, the Rubenstein, Claudio Rao.
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I mean, just just Martha, Martha, Agri, Grich, Agri, etc.
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I mean, anybody who plays great, right.
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And is soulful.
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I go, I'm in, you know, so.
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Throughout the history of jazz, you know, it went through so many different styles.
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How did you how do you define jazz?
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Or what does jazz mean to you?
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You know, I would like to know.
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Yeah, it's not I guess it's not quite a simple answer.
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But it's a while being the age that I am, it's it's a way of living.
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I mean, just do 20 years old.
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You and Gabby always look so young, you know, times three.
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Right.
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OK.
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But it's you know, it's a it's a way of living.
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Just I'm only saying that because I've been in it for so long.
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But it's it's one of the freest forms of music to express yourself.
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And and I've been always attracted by the feel of the music, you know, how how the music
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moves, but also how it makes me move inside of myself.
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And at times, even physically, it's just I love the groove of the music and the feel
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of the music.
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I mean, it's and of course, that's not only relegated to jazz, but it's it's that.
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And then the the the sense of improvisation that it is an improvisation based music.
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Yet it there's a lot of structure to it that is important to convey, you know, as a teacher,
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but also to people who are listening, who want to get into the music, who are either
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musicians or non musicians about how it's built.
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Yes, of course, it's very, very complex, but the structures are very, very simple.
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Very, very simple.
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And so that anyway, there's a lot of room and you can be a misfit.
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Maybe you don't fit in in certain ways, I think, because the music it's over a hundred
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years old.
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Right.
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And it's encompasses so many styles of music from all over the world.
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Yes, yes.
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You know, and it and it continues.
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So that's what I think is very, very beautiful about the art form and more and more, you
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know, classical.
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I like this aspect of how things are evolving, that classical and jazz musicians are really
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starting to become much right.
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Yeah.
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Integrated.
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Yes, there is like there's a terrific pianist named Dan Tepper, who's a fantastic jazz pianist,
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but an incredible improviser with Bach.
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You know, I don't do those things, but I can take something and build something.
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But you know, great.
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Brad Meldow, fantastic, you know, certainly classical player.
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Keith Jarrett, you know, a great classical musician as well, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock.
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They all had their roots, but they continued them over the course of their careers.
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So anyway, it's so so it's.
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I mean, it's a it's a very good place for me to exist in, quote unquote, jazz, but it
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covers so much it's you know, that that it's it's hard to define just one particular way.
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But thank you.
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Yes, that's beautiful.
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So I have several questions.
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So I saw your video clip of several videos actually on YouTube.
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And then one in particular I really loved was Blues is Free.
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It says in the description, it says 12 bars with no set melody.
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So were you basically improvising?
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Yes.
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Oh, wow.
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Yes.
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But so the first 12 bar is kind of the theme.
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Is that what it is?
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Well, the the the thing about the blues is that in the tradition of it, it's 12 measures
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long and it that's the form.
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Like it's then you start over.
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I didn't know.
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No, you keep cycling that particular chord progression and it's built on one, four or
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five, you know, the tonic dominant subdominant, you know, and that's the classic.
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That's the classic form.
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I can play it for you if you want.
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Yes, that would be great.
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One, two, three, four.
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That's the top.
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So I didn't play any melody.
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But that was just a copying rhythm.
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Right.
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Right.
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And so one, four, one, five, four, one.
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That's the traditional the traditional blues.
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And then with the more of the jazz influence would be this.
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There's still 12 bars.
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And it's in the key of C.
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So.
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All right.
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I feel like.
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I'm back in the bar again in the jazz club.
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Yeah, I wish I was too.
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We all have to wait.
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But it's you still hear the the, you know, the landing places of going to the four
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chord, the five chord, but there's passing chords that are leading in from C that
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lead up to F seven that lead back to C.
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And then there's these passing chords, you know, but that's the jazz influence of,
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you know, harmonies coming in.
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But the important thing is it's still 12 measures long.
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That never ever varies.
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No, I can't.
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So like, if you think of you're looking at a clock and it goes 12, one, two, three,
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four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, one, two.
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It's always this cycle and you have to count and you can't lose your place.
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But that's, that's all it is.
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I mean, it's a it's a particular number of measures.
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It's well, of course, it's more than that.
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But the math part of it is 12 bars.
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There's a few other different forms where there's an eight bar blues and things like
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that. But this is the traditional, you know, sound.
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The first one I played in particular, but yeah.
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Right. I mean, so I totally enjoy the blues is free.
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So for those who are listening or watching, I'll make sure to put this YouTube link in
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a description so you can watch it as well.
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But so can I talk a little more about it?
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Just just on that particular performance.
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Yes, there was no melody here.
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I didn't play any melody either.
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You know, I was just playing the chords.
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But so in that sense, it's very, very open in that I can create a melody.
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And and then come back to that later.
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But it's it's a form.
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It's a form for expression, I guess, maybe in the sense of like a like a classical
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music, like maybe a canon or something like that, where it's this recurring or a
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passacaglia, where it's this recurring bass movement that.
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Just keep cycling like Pachelbel's canon.
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You know, it's very improvisatory in a way after the initial theme.
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So it would be like this.
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It's it just is it.
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So in that sense with jazz, it's very rigid, you know, and there's no stretching of the
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time. It's very constant where you're in the middle of the song.
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It's constant where I one of the things I love about classical music is when you look
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at a score, a symphonic score, you go, OK, well, it's in four, four, for instance.
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But then you you follow the score with the interpretation of the music and it's got
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these nice stretches and little pauses and jazz music in this sense does not do that.
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It's always about the groove, keeping good time, good tempo, not slowing down, not
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rushing. So it interesting.
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We learn from each other.
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I would say. But I just wanted to say thank you so much for that wonderful demonstration
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because that really just cleared up so much for me.
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You know, I know when people start learning jazz, like taking jazz lessons, always start
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with the 12 bar blues. Right. And and I always wondered, well, how do you get, though,
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from 12 bar blues to jazz, which you just showed us?
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That's amazing. You know, like because the blues is clearly the blues and then jazz,
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it's a different language. But you can hear the overlap like the structure is the same,
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that, you know, same 12 bars, same root chords.
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Right. But then once you have the jazz version, of course, now we have extended harmonies,
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right. Nice 11th, 13th.
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Right. You're doing more kind of stuff jumping around the register.
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Right. Like kind of up and down.
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Whereas the first version was much more steady in the same place, more rhythmic complexity.
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And you just right there in like two minutes, you showed us the evolution of one style
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into the other and how they're connected.
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It's just really wonderful.
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Thank you. Yeah.
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Oh, you're welcome. And I I also want to emphasize that, you know, the blues is
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is the four it was happening before jazz.
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But that's jazz grew out of the blues. Exactly.
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And of course, influenced by, you know, European harmonies and and things like that,
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that that extended, you know, the art form.
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But I want to say a couple of the things about improvising now.
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So with the blues, there's the blues scale and there's two ways of approaching improvisation.
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So you can do like a horizontal improvisation, meaning like with the blues scale, it's six notes.
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I can take that scale and I can play that those six notes in whatever way I want
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over the 12 bars. Right.
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Over C7, F7, G7.
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Now, in the vertical sense, I can look at each chord individually and go, here's the C7.
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I can play multiple things that address only that chord.
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Then when it goes to F7, I'm going to do the same thing.
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I'll go qualities of F7, qualities of G7.
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Mm hmm. So I'll play it for you.
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Yeah, I was going to say, could you demonstrate a little bit?
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So the blue notes are.
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Mm hmm.
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Okay, so now now I'll play addressing each chord.
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Mm hmm.
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Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much.
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Okay, so I see. So in the first version, basically, you're only using the notes of the blue,
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the blues scale. Am I correct? That's correct.
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Right. And then the second version is much more chromatic and you basically have access
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to any scale that fits the chord. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, all 12 notes are
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available, but that's that's putting the cart a little bit too far down the road
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before the horse. But the thing is, what's important to remember with improvisation
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when you're addressing the chords, if I only address the third of the chord, the major third
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of C, F and G, then immediately you're getting a sense of what the harmony is. Is it major or minor?
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Right. So, you know.
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And even if I don't use a bass note, there's no bass note, but it was a describing of the harmony.
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So that's that in that sense. And of course, blues players like BB King, of course, they would
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go in and out of this. But in jazz, it's all of a sudden we can utilize the modes, the mixolydian
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mode, the diminished scale, the altered diminished scale, et cetera, et cetera. You know, a lot of
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more things are available. But the beauty of, you know, the blues, it's like your your the blue
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scales, like you're floating over the top. You know, you kind of can't make a mistake with those six
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notes. Right. It's great. But more sophisticated, not to sound that can sound a little bit derogatory.
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No, it's just more expression, a larger vocabulary of expression. So. Right. Okay, that clears some
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stuff up. Thank you. Yeah. So I feel like in classical music, you kind of have the black and
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white of major and minor up until about, I don't know, Debussy or something. Right. And it's very
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clearly major or minor. Yes, there's like, you know, modal mixture. But those are really the
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two anchoring forces until we get to 20th century music. And then and then in blues, I think like
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one of the defining characteristics is you have both kind of at the same time. Right. And
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what you were doing just now, I was like, Oh, yeah, it's interesting when you really anchor
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that major third, then it immediately sounds less bluesy to me. And I think your instincts as a jazz
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and blues player, like, like you kept sneaking that minor third in there as well. Right. Yeah,
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yeah. True. True. And then and then when you get to more what we think of as jazz, right, then
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all these different scales come in. And like you said, greater vocabulary, much wider color,
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palette. So there's less of this kind of duality of major and minor, right? Yeah, it well it becomes
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it's all true, but it becomes a mix and it becomes actually quite personal to the player.
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You know, like, like with Oscar Peterson, like virtuoso, unbelievable technique, but very blues
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oriented, a lot of that minor third, flat five, flat seven. I mean, he he always had that in the
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mix quite often. But you'll hear an element of the blues in practically any jazz musician play. But
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but then somebody like Keith Jarrett, who's got a great sense of the blues and gospel, but
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he'll go like it all of a sudden is a very, very different language and utilizing
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much more than Oscar did, you know, but it's still it's, you know, it's still very, very personal,
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but they're still playing on the same chord changes, the same form, you know, but then again,
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then on top of that is the touch of the individual pianist and, and how they assemble their chords,
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how they move them. I mean, it's, but it, it's, it's true. I mean, it's just that and in classical
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music, such a wealth of amazing harmonic things. Yes, but especially when it when it started to get
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in to the 20th century, well, late 19th century, but especially 20th century WC and then of course,
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Stravinsky and Schoenberg and 12 tone and all kinds of things. I mean, everything is open now,
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I mean, has been for a long time. And so, and playing outside of the key, for instance,
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right. So, and one thing I learned from Dave Liebman, the great saxophonist who
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played with Miles Davis and Elvin Jones, who played with John Coltrane,
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and who played with the great musicians of that time. And he was a great musician. He was a great
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composer. And he was a great musician. And his very serious lineage in history was that his,
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he had just a great concept about, you know, like cadences, you know, tension and release, and where
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Oh, I'm off again, you know, you can go and of course, classical music, we learned that from
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classical music of the tension, and then coming back home, and then going away again. Right. If
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it's only always away, well, that's much more avant garde, which I love too. But the best avant
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garde players, my mind, are the ones who have a sense of cadence and resolution. Otherwise,
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it's just kind of like, well, I'm not getting some I'm not getting enough from it. I like some sense
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of form. But yeah, it's got to be anchored in something, right? Yes. Yes. And I think that's
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plus I think it's very much more musically riveting for the listener to go, oh, and it's like, wow,
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how did they get back there? Oh, wow, where'd they go? Oh, they're back again, you know,
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dramatic, makes it more dramatic. So, right.
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This concludes part one of our interview with Jim Riddle.
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Tune in next time for more of Jim's insights and amazing improv demonstrations.
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Thank you.
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You're listening to the Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
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about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.
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Welcome back to another episode of the Piano Pod.
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I am Clara Zhang.
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I'm Yukimi Song.
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And I am Eric Hunter.
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Happy April and a happy Jazz Appreciation Month, fondly known as GEM, everyone.
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And do you know GEM was created by John Edward Hasse, curator of the Smithsonian's National
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Museum of American History in 2001 to recognize and celebrate the extraordinary heritage and
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history of jazz for the entire month of April.
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GEM is intended to stimulate and encourage people of all ages to learn and listen to
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jazz music.
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And today we are so excited to be interviewing world-class jazz pianist, composer, recording
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artist, educator, and my dear friend, Jim Riddle, to celebrate GEM.
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Welcome, Jim.
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Thank you so much.
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My pleasure.
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My pleasure to be here.
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Thank you so much for being on the show, Jim.
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This is a long time coming.
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We have been friends for so many years, and I'm so glad that we have this opportunity
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to do this interview professionally.
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And I just want to introduce a little bit of GEM before we officially start.
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GEM is a busy performing artist based in New York City, performing in major venues such
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as Blue Note in New York City, Japan, Italy, Jazz Standard, Birdland, and Carnegie Hall.
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He regularly performs in festivals in America, Europe, Japan, and South America, and has
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toured all around the world.
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All right.
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So I know you have accomplished so, so much in your career, Jim, but now we get into all
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these questions.
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We are so desperate that we want to ask.
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So I teach a lot of little kids, and I would like to know, in the very, very beginning,
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I'm curious, when did you decide to become a jazz musician?
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Was that the instinct in the childhood, or you just woke up one day, it's like, I'm going
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to be a jazz guy.
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What is it like?
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Yeah, it's a very good question.
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When I was, I don't know, like eight or 10 or something in that age period, I think it
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was through a few recordings that my father had, my brother had.
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Oh wow.
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But not very much.
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I mean, I was listening to pop radio and things that my older siblings were listening to,
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pop and rock.
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And there was a few jazz recordings.
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I think André Previn, the great conductor pianist, but he was also a fantastic jazz
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pianist, had a recording by him.
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Anyway, I was interested in music, and I was playing by ear, no real study.
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So you have perfect pitch.
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I see.
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No, no, I wish I did.
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But just, you know, kind of when you imitate and you copy something that you hear.
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So I was interested in music from when I was a little kid, and I was inspired by my oldest
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brother who composed a piece for his concert band in high school.
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And so I was mesmerized by what he did.
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And then, so I continued just playing and I did take some lessons from Sister Rebecca
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at the parochial school, and I quit after a couple of years.
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My father wasn't very happy, but I kept playing.
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So anyway, it leads to I became more and more interested in jazz as an early teenager.
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And then it's amazing what teachers do, because I grew up in Dickinson, North Dakota, a very
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small rural town.
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And my father had heard this pianist play with a guitar player at this local restaurant
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bar, and he really loved what they played.
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And so he asked, his name is Keith Drakware, and he asked Keith, he said, Hey, my son is,
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you know, interested in jazz, would you be willing to teach him?
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And he and he said, Well, sure.
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And so he set up a lesson.
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And I was 15 years old.
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So when I first first heard him play, I go, that's how I want to play.
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That's what I want to do.
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It was it was an immediate moment in that way.
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I mean, there was music before that.
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And then that changed my life.
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And I studied with him and he turned me on to, you know, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea,
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Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Miles Davis, etc.
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Stride players, ragtime, country music.
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And so it started me from there.
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That was my path all these years later.
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It'll be my whole life.
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Right.
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Yeah, so the influence of this teacher, Keith, and we're still in contact is that he's a
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fantastic musician and he just retired.
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He taught like high school band and stuff for concert band, etc. for many, many years.
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But it's great.
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We're still in contact.
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That is just so amazing, you know, especially for younger students.
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I think that, you know, their child or childhood teachers really sometimes mean so much, you
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know, it's, yeah, it cuts us into a place that we, you know, we just have that imagination.
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And also when you mentioned you were studying at a sister, what do you mean, sister?
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It was a Catholic grade school.
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So that's really cool.
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Even the Catholic nun, they are teaching jazz?
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Is that?
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Well, no, this wasn't jazz.
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I mean, I see.
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Yeah, no, it was no jazz.
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It was just fundamental piano.
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I got it.
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You know, so yeah, and well, they're still cool.
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We're teaching piano.
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Yes, of course.
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Yeah.
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Wow, that is so beautiful.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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I had no idea.
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I didn't know, you know, but I know we all start somewhere.
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And so we have so many questions, but I just have.
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Can I ask a question?
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Sure.
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Go ahead.
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Thanks, because the story of how you started out seems to be kind of familiar.
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I feel like a lot of jazz pianists start in the same way where they get kind of traditional
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piano lessons from a teacher and then they might lose interest a little bit and go off
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on their own for a while because for whatever reasons, I don't want to put words in your
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mouth or anything.
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But I feel like oftentimes it's because they are not allowed to express themselves creatively
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or they haven't found the sound that they're looking for.
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And then 15, you know, you're already a teenager and that was kind of like your aha moment.
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And I'm just wondering, is there anything easier?
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It seems like you had to kind of wander for a while.
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Actually, this was the case with Mike Grande also, who was on our show, and he's a rock
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musician, but it took him until he was about that age to find somebody that really clicked
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with him.
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Can we teach younger kids jazz from an earlier age?
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Or is it just by definition going to be this kind of wandering path before you get into
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it?
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Well, it's a good question.
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I think it's very different now than when I was 15, which is many, many years ago, because
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these days you have the accessibility to the music.
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It's worldwide.
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I mean, it was accessible to me in 1974, something like that.
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I mean, it's so music gets everywhere all over the world, but the accessibility now
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through the internet in particular, and, you know, YouTube and then all the literature,
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there's a million books about jazz theory, about jazz instruction, about how to play,
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who to listen to.
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There's just a wealth of things.
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So for, and I've heard this, you know, like on YouTube, when you hear like the little prodigies
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of playing not only classical music and bluegrass and things like this, but there's like amazingly
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talented, you know, even 10 year olds that are playing very sophisticated stuff.
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Obviously, they have a very tuned in ear, I think quite immediately.
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Of course, yes, you can get into, I think, the mechanics of the music much earlier, but
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still it's about the listening, you know, because the recordings, especially in jazz
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music, the recordings teach us the music both, you know, directly, but kind of in the air
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because you're listening.
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And because for me, I'll elaborate on this a little bit.
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One of my early heroes was Oscar Peterson, who you've probably heard of because he's
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one of the great jazz pianists of the 20th century into the 21st century.
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And I wore this one record out.
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And so I was very influenced by him.
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It's still in my playing, but that was through that recording.
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And so, you know, 15, it clicked for me, but certainly, yeah, I didn't know until then
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what I was going to do.
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But music was with me since I was five.
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I know that for a fact.
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So it kind of took me further.
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Excuse me.
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So yeah.
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Yeah.
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So would you say that in a way jazz education starts with listening then?
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Because I think one important distinction to make between jazz and classical is in jazz,
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the reference is the recording.
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It's the album, right?
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With classical music, you know, for Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, composers like that, they
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didn't have recording technology, obviously.
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So our reference is the score.
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Yeah.
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But I would ask you guys.
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So as you were coming up and learning, like who like say, Mozart piano concerto, and you
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go, well, who's your favorite player?
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Right plays it.
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Who's your favorite recording?
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You probably all have that relationship to them.
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Or I'm asking that that's makes sense.
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Right?
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Right.
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Of course.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Because then for me, you know, the the sound of Oscar Peterson got my playing, Herbie
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Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, all those things that are very important influences
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to shape.
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Well, first of all, to gain a vocabulary of ideas and use literally steal them if they
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were on the score.
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We're all essentially doing the same thing.
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We're taking the music and then we try and personalize it in our own way.
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So you know, all those players are in are in me.
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But then also Vladimir Horowitz, my hero, you know, the Rubenstein, Claudio Rao.
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I mean, just just Martha, Martha, Agri, Grich, Agri, etc.
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I mean, anybody who plays great, right.
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And is soulful.
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I go, I'm in, you know, so.
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Throughout the history of jazz, you know, it went through so many different styles.
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How did you how do you define jazz?
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Or what does jazz mean to you?
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You know, I would like to know.
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Yeah, it's not I guess it's not quite a simple answer.
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But it's a while being the age that I am, it's it's a way of living.
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I mean, just do 20 years old.
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You and Gabby always look so young, you know, times three.
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Right.
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OK.
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But it's you know, it's a it's a way of living.
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Just I'm only saying that because I've been in it for so long.
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But it's it's one of the freest forms of music to express yourself.
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And and I've been always attracted by the feel of the music, you know, how how the music
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moves, but also how it makes me move inside of myself.
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And at times, even physically, it's just I love the groove of the music and the feel
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of the music.
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I mean, it's and of course, that's not only relegated to jazz, but it's it's that.
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And then the the the sense of improvisation that it is an improvisation based music.
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Yet it there's a lot of structure to it that is important to convey, you know, as a teacher,
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but also to people who are listening, who want to get into the music, who are either
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musicians or non musicians about how it's built.
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Yes, of course, it's very, very complex, but the structures are very, very simple.
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Very, very simple.
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And so that anyway, there's a lot of room and you can be a misfit.
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Maybe you don't fit in in certain ways, I think, because the music it's over a hundred
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years old.
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Right.
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And it's encompasses so many styles of music from all over the world.
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Yes, yes.
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You know, and it and it continues.
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So that's what I think is very, very beautiful about the art form and more and more, you
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know, classical.
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I like this aspect of how things are evolving, that classical and jazz musicians are really
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starting to become much right.
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Yeah.
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Integrated.
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Yes, there is like there's a terrific pianist named Dan Tepper, who's a fantastic jazz pianist,
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but an incredible improviser with Bach.
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You know, I don't do those things, but I can take something and build something.
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But you know, great.
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Brad Meldow, fantastic, you know, certainly classical player.
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Keith Jarrett, you know, a great classical musician as well, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock.
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They all had their roots, but they continued them over the course of their careers.
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So anyway, it's so so it's.
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I mean, it's a it's a very good place for me to exist in, quote unquote, jazz, but it
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covers so much it's you know, that that it's it's hard to define just one particular way.
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But thank you.
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Yes, that's beautiful.
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So I have several questions.
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So I saw your video clip of several videos actually on YouTube.
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And then one in particular I really loved was Blues is Free.
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It says in the description, it says 12 bars with no set melody.
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So were you basically improvising?
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Yes.
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Oh, wow.
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Yes.
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But so the first 12 bar is kind of the theme.
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Is that what it is?
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Well, the the the thing about the blues is that in the tradition of it, it's 12 measures
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long and it that's the form.
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Like it's then you start over.
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I didn't know.
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No, you keep cycling that particular chord progression and it's built on one, four or
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five, you know, the tonic dominant subdominant, you know, and that's the classic.
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That's the classic form.
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I can play it for you if you want.
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Yes, that would be great.
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One, two, three, four.
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That's the top.
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So I didn't play any melody.
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But that was just a copying rhythm.
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Right.
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Right.
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And so one, four, one, five, four, one.
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That's the traditional the traditional blues.
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And then with the more of the jazz influence would be this.
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There's still 12 bars.
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And it's in the key of C.
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So.
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All right.
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I feel like.
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I'm back in the bar again in the jazz club.
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Yeah, I wish I was too.
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We all have to wait.
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But it's you still hear the the, you know, the landing places of going to the four
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chord, the five chord, but there's passing chords that are leading in from C that
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lead up to F seven that lead back to C.
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And then there's these passing chords, you know, but that's the jazz influence of,
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you know, harmonies coming in.
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But the important thing is it's still 12 measures long.
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That never ever varies.
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No, I can't.
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So like, if you think of you're looking at a clock and it goes 12, one, two, three,
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four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, one, two.
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It's always this cycle and you have to count and you can't lose your place.
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But that's, that's all it is.
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I mean, it's a it's a particular number of measures.
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It's well, of course, it's more than that.
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But the math part of it is 12 bars.
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There's a few other different forms where there's an eight bar blues and things like
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that. But this is the traditional, you know, sound.
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The first one I played in particular, but yeah.
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Right. I mean, so I totally enjoy the blues is free.
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So for those who are listening or watching, I'll make sure to put this YouTube link in
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a description so you can watch it as well.
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But so can I talk a little more about it?
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Just just on that particular performance.
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Yes, there was no melody here.
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I didn't play any melody either.
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You know, I was just playing the chords.
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But so in that sense, it's very, very open in that I can create a melody.
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And and then come back to that later.
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But it's it's a form.
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It's a form for expression, I guess, maybe in the sense of like a like a classical
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music, like maybe a canon or something like that, where it's this recurring or a
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passacaglia, where it's this recurring bass movement that.
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Just keep cycling like Pachelbel's canon.
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You know, it's very improvisatory in a way after the initial theme.
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So it would be like this.
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It's it just is it.
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So in that sense with jazz, it's very rigid, you know, and there's no stretching of the
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time. It's very constant where you're in the middle of the song.
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It's constant where I one of the things I love about classical music is when you look
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at a score, a symphonic score, you go, OK, well, it's in four, four, for instance.
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But then you you follow the score with the interpretation of the music and it's got
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these nice stretches and little pauses and jazz music in this sense does not do that.
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It's always about the groove, keeping good time, good tempo, not slowing down, not
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rushing. So it interesting.
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We learn from each other.
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I would say. But I just wanted to say thank you so much for that wonderful demonstration
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because that really just cleared up so much for me.
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You know, I know when people start learning jazz, like taking jazz lessons, always start
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with the 12 bar blues. Right. And and I always wondered, well, how do you get, though,
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from 12 bar blues to jazz, which you just showed us?
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That's amazing. You know, like because the blues is clearly the blues and then jazz,
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it's a different language. But you can hear the overlap like the structure is the same,
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that, you know, same 12 bars, same root chords.
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Right. But then once you have the jazz version, of course, now we have extended harmonies,
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right. Nice 11th, 13th.
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Right. You're doing more kind of stuff jumping around the register.
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Right. Like kind of up and down.
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Whereas the first version was much more steady in the same place, more rhythmic complexity.
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And you just right there in like two minutes, you showed us the evolution of one style
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into the other and how they're connected.
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It's just really wonderful.
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Thank you. Yeah.
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Oh, you're welcome. And I I also want to emphasize that, you know, the blues is
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is the four it was happening before jazz.
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But that's jazz grew out of the blues. Exactly.
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And of course, influenced by, you know, European harmonies and and things like that,
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that that extended, you know, the art form.
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But I want to say a couple of the things about improvising now.
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So with the blues, there's the blues scale and there's two ways of approaching improvisation.
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So you can do like a horizontal improvisation, meaning like with the blues scale, it's six notes.
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I can take that scale and I can play that those six notes in whatever way I want
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over the 12 bars. Right.
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Over C7, F7, G7.
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Now, in the vertical sense, I can look at each chord individually and go, here's the C7.
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I can play multiple things that address only that chord.
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Then when it goes to F7, I'm going to do the same thing.
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I'll go qualities of F7, qualities of G7.
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Mm hmm. So I'll play it for you.
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Yeah, I was going to say, could you demonstrate a little bit?
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So the blue notes are.
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Mm hmm.
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Okay, so now now I'll play addressing each chord.
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Mm hmm.
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Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much.
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Okay, so I see. So in the first version, basically, you're only using the notes of the blue,
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the blues scale. Am I correct? That's correct.
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Right. And then the second version is much more chromatic and you basically have access
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to any scale that fits the chord. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, all 12 notes are
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available, but that's that's putting the cart a little bit too far down the road
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before the horse. But the thing is, what's important to remember with improvisation
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when you're addressing the chords, if I only address the third of the chord, the major third
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of C, F and G, then immediately you're getting a sense of what the harmony is. Is it major or minor?
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Right. So, you know.
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And even if I don't use a bass note, there's no bass note, but it was a describing of the harmony.
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So that's that in that sense. And of course, blues players like BB King, of course, they would
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go in and out of this. But in jazz, it's all of a sudden we can utilize the modes, the mixolydian
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mode, the diminished scale, the altered diminished scale, et cetera, et cetera. You know, a lot of
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more things are available. But the beauty of, you know, the blues, it's like your your the blue
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scales, like you're floating over the top. You know, you kind of can't make a mistake with those six
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notes. Right. It's great. But more sophisticated, not to sound that can sound a little bit derogatory.
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No, it's just more expression, a larger vocabulary of expression. So. Right. Okay, that clears some
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stuff up. Thank you. Yeah. So I feel like in classical music, you kind of have the black and
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white of major and minor up until about, I don't know, Debussy or something. Right. And it's very
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clearly major or minor. Yes, there's like, you know, modal mixture. But those are really the
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two anchoring forces until we get to 20th century music. And then and then in blues, I think like
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one of the defining characteristics is you have both kind of at the same time. Right. And
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what you were doing just now, I was like, Oh, yeah, it's interesting when you really anchor
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that major third, then it immediately sounds less bluesy to me. And I think your instincts as a jazz
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and blues player, like, like you kept sneaking that minor third in there as well. Right. Yeah,
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yeah. True. True. And then and then when you get to more what we think of as jazz, right, then
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all these different scales come in. And like you said, greater vocabulary, much wider color,
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palette. So there's less of this kind of duality of major and minor, right? Yeah, it well it becomes
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it's all true, but it becomes a mix and it becomes actually quite personal to the player.
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You know, like, like with Oscar Peterson, like virtuoso, unbelievable technique, but very blues
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oriented, a lot of that minor third, flat five, flat seven. I mean, he he always had that in the
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mix quite often. But you'll hear an element of the blues in practically any jazz musician play. But
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but then somebody like Keith Jarrett, who's got a great sense of the blues and gospel, but
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he'll go like it all of a sudden is a very, very different language and utilizing
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much more than Oscar did, you know, but it's still it's, you know, it's still very, very personal,
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but they're still playing on the same chord changes, the same form, you know, but then again,
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then on top of that is the touch of the individual pianist and, and how they assemble their chords,
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how they move them. I mean, it's, but it, it's, it's true. I mean, it's just that and in classical
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music, such a wealth of amazing harmonic things. Yes, but especially when it when it started to get
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in to the 20th century, well, late 19th century, but especially 20th century WC and then of course,
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Stravinsky and Schoenberg and 12 tone and all kinds of things. I mean, everything is open now,
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I mean, has been for a long time. And so, and playing outside of the key, for instance,
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right. So, and one thing I learned from Dave Liebman, the great saxophonist who
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played with Miles Davis and Elvin Jones, who played with John Coltrane,
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and who played with the great musicians of that time. And he was a great musician. He was a great
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composer. And he was a great musician. And his very serious lineage in history was that his,
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he had just a great concept about, you know, like cadences, you know, tension and release, and where
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Oh, I'm off again, you know, you can go and of course, classical music, we learned that from
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classical music of the tension, and then coming back home, and then going away again. Right. If
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it's only always away, well, that's much more avant garde, which I love too. But the best avant
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garde players, my mind, are the ones who have a sense of cadence and resolution. Otherwise,
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it's just kind of like, well, I'm not getting some I'm not getting enough from it. I like some sense
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of form. But yeah, it's got to be anchored in something, right? Yes. Yes. And I think that's
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plus I think it's very much more musically riveting for the listener to go, oh, and it's like, wow,
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how did they get back there? Oh, wow, where'd they go? Oh, they're back again, you know,
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dramatic, makes it more dramatic. So, right.
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This concludes part one of our interview with Jim Riddle.
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Tune in next time for more of Jim's insights and amazing improv demonstrations.
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Thank you.
