43. How Psychedelics Can Heal Trauma (When Used the Right Way!) with Payton Nyquvest

WEBVTT
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I want to take a quick break from today's episode to ask if you've ever felt overwhelmed
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by all the conflicting health advice out there, I get it.
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My name is Mona Sharma, celebrity nutritionist, and that's why I put together with my colleague
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Dr. Mark Hyman, 12 essential wellness tips, the foundational principles we live by to optimize
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energy, digestion, and longevity.
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These are simple, science-backed, and rooted in ancient healing traditions.
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You're now to get your copy of the 12 tips at monasharma.com, backslash 12 tips.
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Before we dive into today's episode, did you know that your stress response is unique
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to you?
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Your hormones, your genetics, your lifestyle all play a role in how stress affects your body.
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My name is Mona Sharma, celebrity nutritionist, and that's why I created the stress personality
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quiz, a simple, science-backed tool to help you understand your stress type and how to
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Go ahead and take the quiz now at monasharma.com forward slash quiz.
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Welcome to rooted in wellness with me, wellness advocate, and holistic nutritionist, monasharma.
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Together, we will take a journey to discover natural healing practices from imbalance to
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balance, guided by ancient wisdom and modern scientific insights.
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I was raised living summers on an ashram, so I learned early on that food is medicine,
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and your kitchen is your greatest source of health care and prevention.
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After facing two heart surgeries, anxiety, and weight challenges, I discovered that just
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because your symptoms are common doesn't mean that they are normal.
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Together with some incredible guests, we will explore the power of our mind, body, and
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soul connection, returning to our roots to rediscover our greatest well-being.
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We've been taught to think about healing in a linear way.
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Go to the doctor, take a pill, follow the protocol, but what if true healing is about something
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much deeper?
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Today, I'm sitting down with Peyton Nyquest, founder and CEO of Numenis, to talk about
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the intersection of psychedelics, trauma healing, and the ancient wisdom that modern medicine
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often overlooks.
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In this episode, we're diving into why psychedelics aren't a quick fix, and how they actually
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work in the brain, the difference between recreational versus therapeutic use, and why
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intention matters, how trauma gets stored in the body, and how to actually release it,
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and the biggest misconceptions about psychedelic therapy, spoiler, it's not for everyone.
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Peyton's work is at the forefront of bridging psychedelics into the healthcare system in
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a responsible, ethical, and deeply transformative way.
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Whether you're curious about these medicines or just looking for new ways to reconnect with
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yourself, this conversation is one you don't want to miss.
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Peyton Nyquest, founder of CEO and Numenis Health, which I can't wait to hear more about
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today.
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Welcome to rooted in wellness.
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Thank you for having me, thank you for having me.
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I'm really looking forward to today's conversation because I think psychedelics hold such a strong
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space in the future of healthcare and healing, but before we dive into that, I just want
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to go through some core questions that I love to ask my guests, and the first one is just
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you knowing that this podcast is really all about ancient wisdom in our modern world,
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and how we can all become more rooted again.
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That could feel like being rooted in yourself, in your health, or just this inner wisdom that
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we all have to heal.
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So when I start out by asking you, what helps you, what are two or three things that help
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you feel really, really rooted in who you are?
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That's a great question.
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Yeah, I think from a very, when I was about 11 or 12, I started having a very dedicated
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meditation practice, and I think there's these practices that transcend any kind of
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lineage or geography, right?
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You think about practices with the breath, you think about meditation practices, anything
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that just gives you stillness to be with yourself.
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And I think it's interesting, you know, you hear a lot of this, and I experience this
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a lot when I talk to people, and I say, you know, do you have a meditative practice, and
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the response is yes, right?
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And I say, well, interesting, tell me about your practice, well, and it'll be like, well,
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my practice is I go to the gym, and that's meditative for me, or I run, and that's
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been like, no, that's still like, it's beautiful, but it's still you doing a thing, right?
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And for me, it's like, where are those moments of just being, right?
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And then from that, what are the things that I can build or cultivate around myself that
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help bring me back to that, right?
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And yeah, no.
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Yeah.
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So I have a system every day, does it look like, you know, I teach my clients a lot,
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a concept of RPM, rise, pee, meditate, so it becomes a ritual every single day, right?
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That's what David G, one of my favorite meditation teachers, for you, have you ritualized
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it every day so that you know the difference?
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It's like not brushing your teeth.
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Yeah, no, very much.
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I've, I mean, I, my wife always says like, I'm probably the easiest person to find.
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But I have a, I have a very four, four walled sort of approach to my practices.
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And so every morning, it's, it's the very first thing I do when I wake up is go into meditation.
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It's the last thing I do before I go to bed.
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And I have other things like cold plunge, some breathwork, and I, the way I sort of build
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it is, I have non-negotiables that have to happen every day, full stop.
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I have two young kids.
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So there's always, that's always a good, a good tester.
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And then I kind of have my nice to have, which is I, you know, I, the plan is to be in
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the cold plunge every day.
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But, you know, sometimes, you know, breakfast needs to get made or diaper needs to get changed
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or whatever.
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Or whatever.
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But I think giving yourself that grace, but also the accountability of, you know, really
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what you need to do to show up for all those things.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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And you mentioned that like the practice of being, so at the ashram, there are such things
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as like a walking meditation or a moving meditation, but there, nothing compares to sitting
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and just being present.
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And I think that that it's such a skill, like if we're really going to own in on turning
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on our body's ability to heal and living with ourselves.
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And yet it's something that we complicate so much, and we resist so much, right?
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So I love you brought that up.
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So on the flip side, I know that you've connected with so many people like you said, we have
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these practices every single day that might be uprooting us.
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For a lot of my clients, like you said, you know, a meditation check, coal plant check,
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breath work check, without actually dropping into the beauty of the practice or so many
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other habits that might be compromising your wellbeing, do you notice when you start
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to drift?
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Like what are some things that you notice when you start to feel really uprooted?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That's a great question.
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I think you start to feel or at least I start to feel that, you know, I'm, I'm life's
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taking me somewhere versus me being an engagement with it.
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And I think anytime you start to move into reaction to things, which, you know, I think
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we live in a time where it's so easy, you know, we've all got phones that buzz in our
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pockets and all kinds of things.
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It's easy to slip into that reactive mode, right?
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And, and certainly I think in those moments of stillness, you realize like it's, it's,
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it's not about the world's happening to me, it's that I'm engaging with it.
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And so when I find myself slipping and feeling very reactive and everything starts to feel
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busy and rushed and, and all of that, that's when I realize, you know, maybe, maybe
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a little more time on the cushion is needed to get back to, get back to self a little
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bit.
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Yeah.
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And I'd be curious to know too, through your use of psychedelics therapeutically, do you
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think that because of that, that's more of an inspiration for you to come back to these
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practices?
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Like do you find that they're more important now that you understand what it's like to
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be so uprooted?
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Yeah.
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You know, my journey into this, you know, psychedelic therapy, these practices have been
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life-saving for me, and it's not something that I had a recreational context for before
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needing to look for these practices.
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But I would say what it does is is, I think there's such an emphasis on the actual experience.
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And I think what the experience is actually built more in me is to like have reverence
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for what you can do every day.
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It's not about the experience.
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The experience should be reminding you of who you are and what you, what you can do
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every day, not, you know, how do I chase the next experience to heal or what have you?
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So that, for me, more than anything has been with those experiences have taught me and
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continue to teach me.
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And yeah.
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And so I think around that is knowing what those experiences also, the potential that
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those experiences bring creates a level of accountability of, you know, the more I can
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do to take care of myself so that I can show up to those experiences and be able to receive,
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you know, what is potentially there for me is really what I find it being really all
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about.
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What I'm kind of hearing from what you're saying is it's like a deeper knowing it, like
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shifting from thinking into knowing that you're a co-creator of everything that's unfolding,
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right?
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And your practice is really matter in how you're going to co-create, right, the space
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and what you're operating from.
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If you're completely uprooted, disconnected, chances are you're not co-creating to create
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something that's magically unfolding.
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When you feel like you're rooted, you feel like you are in co-creation for like possibilities
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that are greater than what we can imagine, right?
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Exactly.
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So I pull this back in.
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I'm sure a lot of our listeners, some are probably going to be, you know, very experienced
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in the world of psychedelics, some who've done it recreationally and some are just very
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new but curious.
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And we're talking a little bit before we started.
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I really do think that the future of psychedelics is going to bridge ancient wisdom and modern
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science, which is why I want to do here today.
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And it's a really powerful tool for holistic healing.
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And with practice, I've shared that I've done psychedelics before when my health was at
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its worst.
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It was recreationally.
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When my health was at its best, it was therapeutically.
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And I think that when psychedelic substances are used responsibly, they can really catalyze
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this like deep healing and self-awareness.
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And when I say self-awareness, you brought up a question, this concept of knowing who you
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are.
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One of the age old questions that come from Vedantic philosophy is sitting in meditation and asking
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who am I.
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And I'll never forget, often when I've gone into using psychedelics, that's the exact
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feeling that comes up.
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There's a remembering of who I am.
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So I'd love to get your perspective in terms of psychedelic therapy becoming now more
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mainstream.
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Thanks to leaders like you with putting a really positive lens over it, many people aren't
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really clear as to what it entails.
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So maybe you can start off by explaining what psychedelics new menus uses in its treatments
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and how you chose those.
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Yeah, I think, you know, as a broad statement that you've seen so much sort of cultural
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support, fanfare around psychedelics lately.
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And I think, you know, obviously I'm in the camp of deservedly, deservedly so.
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But they're certainly not panesias.
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And they aren't going to fix all your problems.
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I think, you know, I have a teacher from the Andes who talks a lot about this and he
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talks about this idea of medicine.
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And I think with psychedelics, you know, you hear this conversation, oh, I'm sitting
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with the medicine.
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I'm sitting with the medicine.
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I'm sitting with the medicine.
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And it's, yes, it's a substance that you're participating in.
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But it's not there to do the fixing for you.
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It's there to show you how you can do that work for yourself or even, I think, what you
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brought up as well is a remembering of who you are, right?
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And I think, you know, particularly when you look at mental health, you think about
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trauma, we start to identify with the things that have happened to us, right?
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And those become a part of our identity.
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And I think, you know, what these experiences can give people a glimpse of is a remembering
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of you are not those experiences.
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And the freedom that comes from remembering, right, I'm not those experiences.
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And, and so I think, you know, where, where Numinus sits today and where we've been really
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focused on is, you know, when I started the company, it was, it was through me having
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my life saved by, by these experiences, but what really catalyzed that experience was
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how much work I had done in my meditation practice working with a therapist, all of the
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stuff that helped build the structure to hold that experience is what made it a huge
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catalyst for me.
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And I think that's, and Numinus, what we've really, really tried to emphasize is the amount
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of preparation, the amount of tools that you can have in your toolbox when you go into
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these experiences allow you to get the most out of them.
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And to try and, yeah, I think not calm down, but contextualize, you know, these experiences.
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And if you think about, we're talking a lot about ancient traditions, you think about
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pretty much every society has had some kind of large, ecstatic practice, a lot of them
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with different substances.
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And if you look at the path that it would take for that community to go into those experiences,
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there was a ton of preparation, it was done in a community who all understood what
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someone was going through, and then the community supported that person, right?
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And that, you know, for us is really where we focus.
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So today, you know, the legal psychedelic that is available both in the U.S. and in
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Canada is ketamine, ketamine assisted therapy, which is, you know, kind of fascinating
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ketamine is, is a synthetic drug that was originally created as an anesthetic in World
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War II to be used in field.
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It then started to show some interesting promise around alleviating depressive symptoms.
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And you know, it's also, it's, it's had an interesting wrap over the last little bit.
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You know, I think you've seen a lot of harm, you know, be done with ketamine and you
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can say that for, you know, any other psychedelic drug as well.
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And it's, you know, we've seen it be hugely beneficial, but it comes back to what is the
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container that's being created that these different substances are used in.
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You know, we also, we run, we've been the number one enrollment site for pretty much every
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major psychedelic clinical trial at the moment.
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So we've been the sites for everything from psilocybin, MDMA, DMT, 5MEO, DMT, LSD, and
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you're seeing this huge wave of all of this research happening.
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And you know, I think it's, it's fascinating to see how successful those trials have been
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going.
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And I think, again, it comes back to these are very, very powerful tools.
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And, you know, you look at a hammer, you know, a hammer can be used to build a beautiful
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house or you can hit yourself in the hand with it if you don't know how to swing it.
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And so it'll be very interesting to see to your point around how this integration into
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the Western healthcare system, you know, works.
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Yeah, I let thank you for it.
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That is a much needed reframe for how we're going to look at these because I'll just
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share it.
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So let's just take ketamine, for example.
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All my 30th birthday, I was slipped ketamine at a nightclub, right?
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Completely irresponsible.
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There's no aspect of medicine, medicine.
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I was talking with God.
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So, you know, I do have a great memory of it, despite being frustrated and angry at what
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happened.
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Flash forward, my husband had an incredibly traumatic experience at the ashram actually.
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There was a death that happened and a dear friend of mine, Dr. Guy Citron, he at his clinic
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offers ketamine therapy and so my husband and I went in and it was guided.
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There was preparation going into it.
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There just was discussion of what happened.
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There was kind of like a counseling you'd say for my husband that was needed prior to
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going into a session like that, if you are going to call it medicine in order for the medicine
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to actually work.
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And then there was follow up in treatment after that.
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So I'm describing this because I think a lot of people have been introduced to psychedelics
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in a recreational way that may or may not have been positive.
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And now through this lens of like, okay, well, how can I use this therapeutically?
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But you're a point and I love that someone like you is bringing it up this way because
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if we're looking at the way that, you know, if it was shamans or our ancestors or how
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different cultures globally were using psychedelic medicine, it would have been done, you know,
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as something that was so therapeutic.
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They wouldn't have been going back into it week after week after week.
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It was a ceremony that was considered a part of divinity, it was part of connecting with
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pure consciousness, right?
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Not something to continue to dive back into and dive back into.
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So I think it's important hearing from someone like you why that is such a priority.
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Yeah.
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So when you speak into Numenus, would you say like who specifically would benefit the most
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from the psychedelic therapy that you offer and what conditions are best treated through
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this?
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Yeah, I think, you know, one thing that I've found fascinating through the whole journey
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with Numenus is, you know, I think a lot of people assume our phone is ringing with people
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calling saying, Hey, I want to come and do psychedelic therapy.
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And that's actually not the case.
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I mean, I would say pretty much nobody calls us saying, I want to do psychedelic therapy.
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People call us saying, I've got anxiety, I've got depression, I've got substance use disorder,
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I'm really struggling.
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And I think that's important in the context of where I see the Western healthcare system
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supporting this work is it's not necessarily going to be for the person who's passionate
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or curious about psychedelics, probably more so is going to be those people that are really
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kind of at the end of their end of the rope.
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And I would say, you know, those are a lot of the people who come to us or people who
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have tried other things and it's not working.
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Certainly, there's people that don't fit, you know, and this has been well documented
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if you've got schizophrenia or any of those kind of presentations.
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It can be seen to actually heighten those those symptoms and potentially make them worse.
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But I think, you know, what we're looking at with with psychedelics and I think, you
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know, what we were talking about in regards to the clinical trial and this sort of like
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regardless of which substance, which indication you look at, it seems to be this net positive
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benefit is they're getting to the root cause of what creates the mental suffering in the
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first place, right?
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And I think whether you look at depression, anxiety, PTSD, there's sort of different presentations
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that maybe a certain substance is more acutely.
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So PTSD as an example, you know, MDMA right now is in its second round of phase three clinical
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trials for MDMA for PTSD.
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The results have been extremely compelling.
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And I think where it's been effective is if you think about someone with severe PTSD
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and you throw them into a very overwhelming psilocybin, call it experience, that could
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be super destabilizing for somebody, whereas, you know, the MDMA protocol is to therapist
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a lot of processing.
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It's engaged.
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It's it's there to help people work through that.
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So I would say, you know, trauma as a as a broad statement is where we see the effectiveness
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and then depending on which psychedelic substance you see, you know, psilocybin and ketamine
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as we talked about depression seems to be where where we see a lot of alleviation, interesting
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interestingly, LSD for anxiety, general anxiety disorder is currently moving into phase three
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studies and so far, the results are really compelling there.
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So I think the broad commitment is that trauma causes, you know, a lot of the different mental
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health presentations and then depending on how you're showing up, different substances
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seem to be better for different indications.
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And with the therapists that you're working with, how are they measuring which is
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right?
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Like, what's the best point of entry?
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So you mentioned, I'm sure a lot of people are going to be calling in like, oh, I heard
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about ketamine therapy.
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I think this is what I want to be doing or psilocybin and MDMA sounds like a great combination
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that I'm hearing a lot of people talk about.
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I want that.
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How are they deciphering which direction to go?
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Is there education that's given with it?
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Yeah, there's a lot of education that's given with it.
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I think that's where the importance of a lot of the clinical trial still work that still
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needs to be done is, is, you know, especially for regulated healthcare practitioners is, you
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know, when you're in the sort of prescribing world is what are the avenues that you can,
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you can kind of set people down.
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But again, I go back to the very beginning, which is, you know, each therapist that works
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with us spends a considerable amount of time with their client before any of these kinds
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of experiences are made available, kind of twofold, one obviously to properly treatment
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plan for them.
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But two, you know, when is the appropriate time to do that as well?
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And I think that's a very important question is the right time and preparation for some
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of these experiences.
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You must be thinking through, you know, I'm grateful that, you know, there's this decriminalization
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process that's happening right now and that there is so much thoughtfulness that's going
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into this because integrating this psychedelics as a holistic practice, like they've got to
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be rooted in such respect, not only for the individual, but from the origins of the medicine,
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right?
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And because of the fact that it's trending right now and there's access to these medicines,
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if you call it medicine, I think a lot of people, it's almost like they're just
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to find, oh, it's okay, I'm calling it medicine.
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It's like, no, no, no, you just went in and you got high, right?
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You did DMT and you wanted to go right back in or maybe they're even abusing ayahuasca
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ceremonies, right?
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Constantly going back in, going back in without the coaching or integration that should
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come with using these treatments, right?
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So, you know, do you see a lot of abuse that's happening?
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Absolutely, absolutely, and this I think goes back to, you know, what I mentioned around
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this idea of calling it a medicine is there's this kind of like bypassing thing that happens
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where it's like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm doing the healing work, I'm sitting with the medicine,
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right?
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It's like, you know, you're off to ayahuasca ceremony, 350, but you can't hold a relationship
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to save your life and, you know, everything in your life is a mess, but I think, yeah,
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I think that's a huge problem at the moment.
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And I think the thing that happens is, you know, you think about just call it disassociative
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experience is, is you see this chasing of like, oh, I don't want to deal with all of
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that.
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I'm going to go and, you know, and as you said, even in your ketamine trip, you, you
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communed with the divine, which, you know, is those experiences are the potential for
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those experiences is there.
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And people go like, well, I'm going to do that and I'm not going to worry about, you know,
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making sure that the dishwasher is empty and that life back at home is good.
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And, and so I do think you see, you see huge potential for abuse and, and unfortunately,
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I think that overshadows and complicates those that are in really a cute need of this
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kind of support.
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And, you know, as I mentioned, it was, it was interesting with my journey.
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I was born with severe chronic pain and I came to psychedelic experiences as sort of
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a last ditch effort to try and save my life and did so.
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And the amount of reverence that I think that I had for the process because that was my
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kind of way into it.
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And then to kind of see, yes, the abuse and, and I, it's not for me to say, you know,
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how someone arrives here.
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But, but as I mentioned, you know, very, very powerful tools and, and they're just that.
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And, and if you look at, you know, as we mentioned, the, the traditional context for these
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things, there was a lot that went into being able to move into those kinds of experiences.
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And, and I think we've, we've almost flipped it in the West where we've made the experience.
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I mean, I live in Vancouver and there's dispensaries that sell LSD and mushrooms and five
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MEO DMT vape pens like the, the opportunity for the experiences is so accessible.
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And the emphasis on really doing the work is, is not.
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And that's a problem at the moment, I think.
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Yeah, especially, you know, anxiety related disorders are on the rise depression is on
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the rise.
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I think it was people who've gone doctor hopping for the sake of getting more and more prescription
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drugs for the sake of that disassociating feeling because we are living at one of the most stressful
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times in history.
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And so the urge is real and it's there.
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And this is where I think that like education going out with psychedelics right now needs
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to be equally as important as the discussion of the treatment in and of itself so that
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people are just like so informed of how we can use this therapeutically.
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And I wanted to dig in a little bit deeper, you know, mentioning that you live with this
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pain that it saved your life.
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What was it about the experiences that you felt that allowed you to pull back?
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How did it save your life?
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Yeah.
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You know, it's interesting.
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I, I arrived this, as I mentioned, my, my sort of journey started when I was about
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11 or 12 working with meditation, working with therapists.
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I kind of went on this crusade from a very young age because of this, this chronic pain.
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And towards the end of that journey, I was getting hospitalized kind of three or four days
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a week.
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And when you're born with that, there's this real ingrained belief that like something's
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wrong.
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Like maybe I'm inherently broken.
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And then this sort of existential question in a very binary way, am I even supposed to
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be here?
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Like why, if I'm born with this thing and I'm suffering as much as I'm suffering, am I,
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am I not listening to something that my body is trying to tell me, right?
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And I grew up in a house that struggled with substance abuse.
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And so I kind of became the anti recreational drug person.
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And that kind of saved, stayed consistent.
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But I turned to psychedelics as a last ditch effort.
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And ayahuasca was actually the first psychedelic that I turned to.
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And I was actually in the, in the emergency room up in Vancouver and I said to my partner
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now, my wife, I said, you got to trust me, but I have to do something kind of drastically
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different.
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And she said, okay.
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And I got out of the hospital, packed my bags, got on a plane and flew to Central America.
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And you know, I, you watch the YouTube videos, you listen to the trip reports, all that.
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And I had all these expectations of what it was supposed to be, what the experience was
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going to be.
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And we did four ceremonies.
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And the first three ceremonies were none of the things that I had read about.
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And, and it didn't feel like it was working.
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And I was really kind of, I was at this point of like, okay, well, if this does, this is
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the last thing.
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So if this doesn't work, then maybe that's it for me.
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And I have one.
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And everywhere.
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Sorry.
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And I have goosebumps everywhere.
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And, and in the last ceremony, what I got brought to was this real acceptance of what
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if this is just what my life is supposed to be, what if my, what if this is all that
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it's supposed to be, what if there's nothing to fix, what if this is just what it's supposed
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to be, can you be grateful for that, even through all of the suffering?
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And I always say, like, there's sort of like acceptance with like a little thing in
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the background of like, well, if I accept it, then maybe the thing will happen.
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This was like radical hands and knees, like acceptance, acceptance.
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And I had, it was literally in a moment that felt like a blanket of an eye and eternity
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of really accepting that I'm not broken.
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And if this is just what my life was supposed to be, while it's been challenging, there's
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been so much beauty in it.
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And in that moment, I would say the, the system that held the chronic pain, the chronic
446
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.080
pain was alleviated, but the system was very much there.
447
00:30:24.080 --> 00:30:29.480
And this insight that came in was the pain is gone, but now it's really on you to make
448
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.600
sure that it doesn't come back.
449
00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:38.160
And there was this very clear sort of accountability of like, I've been given this opportunity to
450
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:43.680
experience life in a very different way and to not, not squander it.
451
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:49.960
And what was interesting coming out of that experience that I think to really emphasize
452
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:55.720
this for people who are looking to go through these experiences is, you know, you come,
453
00:30:55.720 --> 00:31:01.560
you have this huge moment and, and it's, you know, for me at the time, it was the most
454
00:31:01.560 --> 00:31:04.840
important thing that had happened to me in my whole life.
455
00:31:04.840 --> 00:31:11.680
And when you come home, nobody knows you as that thing.
456
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:18.040
And your relationships, the way you engage with the world, it's different.
457
00:31:18.040 --> 00:31:22.760
And, you know, and you're coming back feeling like, oh my God, I've got, you know, I've
458
00:31:22.760 --> 00:31:26.640
got the answers and I'm feeling great and I remember I even sitting on the plane on
459
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.040
the way home and I was like, what am I going to do with all my free time?
460
00:31:30.040 --> 00:31:34.400
Like, I always was used to being in the hospital, at least a couple of days a week.
461
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:36.760
And it was like, do I get more haircuts now?
462
00:31:36.760 --> 00:31:39.080
Like, what do I, what do I do?
463
00:31:39.080 --> 00:31:45.920
And I would say the hardest part of that whole journey was actually coming home and establishing,
464
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:53.360
you know, a container to hold this, you know, renewed, I would say version of myself.
465
00:31:53.360 --> 00:31:57.520
And, you know, I think for a lot of people, I would say, you know, careful what you wish
466
00:31:57.520 --> 00:32:02.440
for with these experiences because you might get what you're asking for.
467
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:06.720
And the other side of that is, is a lot.
468
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:14.440
And so for me, yeah, I hugely transformative, but also the, the amount of accountability
469
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:19.560
that was there and I think it's kind of interesting to put in this context.
470
00:32:19.560 --> 00:32:24.880
But I was grateful that I had the experience of chronic pain because when I came back,
471
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:29.400
it was still very fresh in my mind of like, we don't want to go back there.
472
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.080
That was, you know, not a lot of fun.
473
00:32:32.080 --> 00:32:34.800
And so, yeah, that's, that's been the journey.
474
00:32:34.800 --> 00:32:40.600
And since that ceremony, I've never had any chronic pain symptoms ever again,
475
00:32:40.600 --> 00:32:42.640
which has been, yeah, remarkable.
476
00:32:42.760 --> 00:32:43.920
So this is what's magic.
477
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.280
So you said some, thank you for sharing that story.
478
00:32:46.280 --> 00:32:47.880
That's just, it's incredible.
479
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.680
And this is where I think the power of the mind and the body really come together
480
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:56.720
in my ayahuasca ceremony, very different, obviously.
481
00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:01.560
But after going through the release, so I shared with you about my heart surgeries
482
00:33:01.560 --> 00:33:05.360
and the trauma came up and the pain came up and the surgery came up
483
00:33:05.360 --> 00:33:09.400
and the memories are just identifying as somebody who is sick, similar to you.
484
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.800
And that shifted into this knowingness.
485
00:33:12.800 --> 00:33:18.840
And I remember I was digging my hands into the earth, feeling the sense of like being held.
486
00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:22.880
And the fact it was a memory of you were the healer.
487
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.840
Like you can heal your body.
488
00:33:24.840 --> 00:33:26.160
Are you done with being sick?
489
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.880
Are you done with identifying as somebody who's living with this chronic condition
490
00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:34.880
and this title, insert release and then all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, I'm my healer.
491
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:36.320
Why did I forget?
492
00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:40.400
How could I have forgotten the gift of my body, the resiliency of my body
493
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:41.880
to be able to heal itself?
494
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:46.280
And so for the past 10 years, it's ultimately been the message to my clients.
495
00:33:46.280 --> 00:33:49.880
And like you, and this is where you and I can jam a little bit more on
496
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:53.640
with such a strong history of meditation.
497
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:58.000
There's been moments in my meditation practice or at the ashram through chanting
498
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:03.080
and breath work where there's been a resonance of the same feeling in my body
499
00:34:03.080 --> 00:34:04.480
as doing psychedelics.
500
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:05.640
Have you ever felt that?
501
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:06.640
Absolutely.
502
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:07.640
Absolutely.
503
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:12.960
Yeah, and this is where I think that like if we're going to use the medicine and psychedelics
504
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:18.200
synergistically, it's about also recognizing and awakening the power of our body
505
00:34:18.200 --> 00:34:21.400
to work synergistically with what we're doing, right?
506
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:26.040
And then choosing like you said, the responsibility that comes after the ceremony
507
00:34:26.040 --> 00:34:31.480
to do the work to remember like this gift that you've been shown to be able to experience
508
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.600
like how magnificent you are to not forget.
509
00:34:34.600 --> 00:34:38.920
You've got to continue on to doing the work afterwards, not about going back in, right?
510
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:39.920
Yeah.
511
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.920
Yeah.
512
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:41.920
No, I think that's exactly it.
513
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:47.760
And I think I think the practice is to be able to be in that space and hold as much
514
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:51.720
of that experience as possible without the substance.
515
00:34:51.720 --> 00:34:56.640
And I think, you know, if you look at traditional or indigenous cultures who have used these
516
00:34:56.640 --> 00:35:02.920
substances, it's been about the relationship with these things and the relationship to
517
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:03.920
self.
518
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:09.920
And I think, you know, what you said around you being the healer, I think, in the West,
519
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:18.680
we've gotten so accustomed to outsourcing our healing to someone or something else.
520
00:35:18.680 --> 00:35:20.200
And you know, it's interesting.
521
00:35:20.200 --> 00:35:23.520
I, the amount of people who've come to me saying, hey, I want to go and do psychedelics
522
00:35:23.520 --> 00:35:28.560
and ask them, like, you know, I've ever seen a therapist or, you know, and it's the
523
00:35:28.560 --> 00:35:30.160
answers usually no.
524
00:35:30.160 --> 00:35:37.360
And it's like, you know, there's a lot that can be done before moving into these experiences.
525
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:43.240
And I think where we want the quick fix, we want the panacea, we want all of that kind
526
00:35:43.240 --> 00:35:44.240
of stuff.
527
00:35:44.240 --> 00:35:49.400
And, and these substances don't do that, but they do remind you and give you this glimpse
528
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:53.760
of like, hey, you can, there's a lot you can do.
529
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:54.760
You are the medicine.
530
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.240
I mean, this gets said all the time.
531
00:35:56.240 --> 00:35:57.240
You are the medicine.
532
00:35:57.240 --> 00:36:02.120
And I think it's, it's become cliche and psychedelics, but I think it's true.
533
00:36:02.120 --> 00:36:08.680
And, and I think that's, you know, what we need to be reminded of is first and foremost,
534
00:36:08.680 --> 00:36:17.760
full stop is, is us and, and the incredible healing power of the body to do what it needs
535
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:18.760
to do.
536
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:24.880
And all we need to do is kind of one, get out of the way a little bit and to allow it
537
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:30.040
the time and space and environment to do what it, what it can do.
538
00:36:30.040 --> 00:36:33.400
In such a great point, do you feel like it's a prerequisite for me?
539
00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:36.520
I know I was working with a holistic psychotherapist.
540
00:36:36.520 --> 00:36:41.920
I was doing a lot of work in embodiment prior to ever considering psychedelics as a deeper
541
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:42.920
form of therapy.
542
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.800
Will you guys often recommend that as a prerequisite?
543
00:36:46.040 --> 00:36:48.040
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
544
00:36:48.040 --> 00:36:49.040
Yeah.
545
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:02.240
Let's take a quick break from this episode to talk about something that's made a huge
546
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difference in my cellular health lately.
547
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548
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:11.440
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549
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550
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551
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552
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C-15 was discovered by Dr. Stephanie Venn Watson, a veterinary epidemiologist who was studying
553
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554
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555
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556
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558
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559
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560
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561
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562
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I've been taking Fatty 15 religiously as part of my wellness routine, and I have to say,
564
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565
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566
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567
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569
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.040
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570
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571
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578
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579
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580
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:33.280
Let's talk a bit like the science behind it a little bit.
581
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:37.800
So you speak so much around the history that psychedelics is taken, right?
582
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:45.240
So from the 60s and the studies that basically got buried around LSD and how those are deeply
583
00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:49.720
therapeutic for mental health conditions, tell us a little bit about some of the science
584
00:39:49.720 --> 00:39:54.320
that you're seeing now and how that's being forecasted for more legalization and using
585
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:55.320
this as treatment.
586
00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.880
Yeah, you know, you've seen through a lot of the clinical trial work, you know, I think
587
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:04.720
one of the things that's been really fascinating and you think about the war on drugs.
588
00:40:04.720 --> 00:40:09.440
I mean, when I was growing up, it was, you know, LSD is going to put holes in your brain
589
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:14.720
and, you know, we all have those kind of stories of growing up as kids and the one thing that
590
00:40:14.720 --> 00:40:21.960
we've seen kind of across the board is the safety profile of these drugs is astounding.
591
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:28.880
I mean, if you think about, if you compare them against any SSRI, anti-depressant thing
592
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:34.800
that we prescribe these days, which, you know, I think those have their place, you know,
593
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:40.480
do I feel like there's an over prescription and an abuse of those drugs without question?
594
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:42.640
Yeah, without question.
595
00:40:42.640 --> 00:40:48.480
But you know, I think that the lethal dose of psilocybin is like 50 grams of psilocybin
596
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:49.480
or something like that.
597
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:51.280
And that's because you would dehydrate.
598
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:54.480
And so one, we're seeing the mix is extremely safe.
599
00:40:54.560 --> 00:41:01.560
Two, you know, from a neurological standpoint, what we're seeing is we talk about the default
600
00:41:01.560 --> 00:41:07.320
mode network or, you know, essentially, the area of the brain that holds your relationship
601
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:09.800
to different experiences.
602
00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:17.240
And to emphasize this, I think there's this kind of conception or like, oh, the psychedelics
603
00:41:17.240 --> 00:41:20.280
are going to take away that memory or what have you.
604
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:25.160
And it's like, no, it's going to give you an opportunity where from a brain science
605
00:41:25.160 --> 00:41:31.360
standpoint, there's neuroplasticity that happens in the brain that when we calm down the default
606
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:38.920
mode network, we're able to make a different or healed relationship with those experiences.
607
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:43.360
And there's a really beautiful graph that's out there that people can Google.
608
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:49.960
I think it was Beckley University that did it, but it showed the brain's normal neuropathways
609
00:41:50.040 --> 00:41:54.800
and then on psilocybin and you see like it's lit up like a Christmas tree.
610
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:55.320
Yeah.
611
00:41:55.320 --> 00:42:00.960
And the best way that it was explained to me was if you think about the brain and you
612
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:06.520
think about a snowy hill, and if you take it to bogging down a snowy hill a whole bunch
613
00:42:06.520 --> 00:42:10.000
of times, it will create grooves in the snow, right?
614
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.080
And that's our relationships to different things and life reinforces those relationships
615
00:42:15.080 --> 00:42:16.640
over and over and over again.
616
00:42:16.640 --> 00:42:23.360
What psychedelics do is give a moment of grooming the snow and giving you an opportunity to
617
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:28.280
go and form a new pathway and a new relationship with those experiences.
618
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:33.800
And then the work is to go back and then reinforce those relationships.
619
00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:39.520
And that's the importance of working with a therapist or somebody who has a context
620
00:42:39.520 --> 00:42:46.200
and has helped hold the container for your renewed relationship with those different experiences.
621
00:42:46.200 --> 00:42:55.680
So I think for the scientific crowd, it's fascinating and I think we barely scratched
622
00:42:55.680 --> 00:43:00.160
the surface, frankly, of what we're seeing.
623
00:43:00.160 --> 00:43:06.120
And I think you look at the clinical trial work that's been done today and I have to
624
00:43:06.120 --> 00:43:15.200
give huge kudos to groups like maps who have been doing this work for 38 years now raising
625
00:43:15.200 --> 00:43:20.520
money through not-for-profit philanthropy to do this clinical trial work.
626
00:43:20.520 --> 00:43:27.160
There's been no federal funding to date and it's been a lot of just the very passionate
627
00:43:27.160 --> 00:43:32.480
folks who have gone and raised money and been able to go and do these clinical trials
628
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:39.640
and the hope now is that we'll start to see more funding come in from more sources so
629
00:43:39.640 --> 00:43:42.800
that more of this work can get done.
630
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:50.040
And it's an interesting kind of environment because you look at the FDA, you look at
631
00:43:50.040 --> 00:43:56.400
the drug approval system, it's used to drugs that require someone to take them every day
632
00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:02.960
and it's symptom management, it's not curative intent and psychedelics have curative intent.
633
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:09.920
The idea is for you to not need it as fast and quickly as possible and that's not what
634
00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:12.880
we're used to in the Western healthcare system.
635
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:17.360
And I'd love to know more about the conversations that are happening because obviously the
636
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:23.200
background is okay, here we are with these incredible therapies that will be taking away
637
00:44:23.200 --> 00:44:30.120
a need for prescription drugs which is a massive industry that fills the pockets of people
638
00:44:30.120 --> 00:44:35.240
who are at the top of these organizations that are very happy with their paychecks.
639
00:44:35.240 --> 00:44:41.320
So in terms of maps being such a cheerleader in this space and the trend that's rising
640
00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:45.320
around people wanting to be part of this space, so many psychotherapists are now being trained
641
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:48.040
by maps in order to use these as modalities.
642
00:44:48.040 --> 00:44:53.120
What's the conversation in terms of like regulation and how will this not be something like
643
00:44:53.120 --> 00:44:56.440
Vancouver where you can go and you can buy whatever you want and there's no regulation
644
00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:59.560
behind it, like how are we going to do this responsibly?
645
00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:05.560
It's a big question to be honest and going back, you mentioned the sort of decriminalization
646
00:45:05.560 --> 00:45:11.720
movement and I get asked a question a lot of like do you believe in medicalization or decriminalization
647
00:45:11.720 --> 00:45:18.960
and my answer is always just yes, I think both have their places.
648
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:26.120
But I go back to how do we ensure one from the practicing side that we're approaching
649
00:45:26.200 --> 00:45:33.000
this with a real reverence and understanding of what it is that people are getting into
650
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:37.920
with these experiences and then to it, I mean, it's a very tricky one.
651
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:48.320
I mean, it does affect the pockets of a very, very financially lucrative model that we've
652
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:57.120
had and I think the other part of that too is we have insurance and I think there's a
653
00:45:57.120 --> 00:46:04.040
real finger pointing of big pharma being the bad guys and in my experience, the insurance
654
00:46:04.040 --> 00:46:11.520
companies are the ones that really are the dictators of the game that gets played by pharmaceutical
655
00:46:11.520 --> 00:46:21.160
companies and the challenging part for psychedelic therapy is it's not cheap and it requires a lot
656
00:46:21.160 --> 00:46:30.320
of therapist time and that's the drug itself is very inexpensive but the time it takes for
657
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:37.200
the intervention is a lot and how do we make sure that there's opportunities for reimbursement
658
00:46:37.600 --> 00:46:40.560
for people so that it is accessible.
659
00:46:40.560 --> 00:46:46.320
You know, that's that's where Numinous has been quite successful about 85 to 90% of all of our
660
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:50.880
ketamine therapy gets covered under insurance at the moment. We're one of the largest insurance
661
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:56.480
reimbursed providers in the country but that's only going to get more and more important you think
662
00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:04.720
about psilocybin or MDMA LSD. I mean, these are longer experiences that require more more time
663
00:47:04.720 --> 00:47:11.440
and so I think that's why it's important to try and navigate the FDA landscape so that there can
664
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:17.680
be insurance options for people and to make it more financially accessible for people but
665
00:47:17.680 --> 00:47:24.000
it's a pretty hot topic at the moment in a number of conversations even, you know, regulatory wise,
666
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:30.320
right? Because there's the regulation on the drug and then there's regulation on therapy and
667
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:36.080
therapeutic practice and and how do you do that, right? Because as we mentioned, you know,
668
00:47:36.080 --> 00:47:42.400
these are powerful tools and you know, it's it's I always it's similar. You know, I I always
669
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:48.160
akin it to an intervention, right? So if you're going in for heart surgery or knee surgery,
670
00:47:48.160 --> 00:47:55.520
I want to know that my surgeon, you know, has gone to school and knows what they're doing and
671
00:47:56.080 --> 00:48:02.640
you know, in the drug approval game, training is kind of light, right? The incentive is let's get a
672
00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:08.080
drug approved and let's get it out to as many people as possible so that we can recoup the costs
673
00:48:08.080 --> 00:48:13.360
of clinical trials which cost hundreds of millions of dollars, right? And training doesn't work
674
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:19.520
like that. So no, those are some of the I think some of the very acute challenges at the moment.
675
00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:26.160
Yeah, it's funny how, you know, all of a sudden some of the the basic things that we can use for
676
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:34.880
health optimization, for mindset and mental health optimization, you know, outside of psychedelics,
677
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:40.320
you know, organic food, sugar, water, or all of these things that are coming with these hefty
678
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:44.880
price tags. But I think that it's conversations like these if we're really going to make something
679
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:52.080
go mainstream, it's the demand that over time will have to lower costs out of necessity and
680
00:48:52.080 --> 00:48:56.160
proof and all these clinical studies that you're mentioning that are happening that need to become
681
00:48:56.160 --> 00:49:00.880
like front page news, right? The success stories that are actually happening behind us.
682
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:06.000
And to your point, too, there's also this massive industry of microdosing, which is like gaining so
683
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:11.920
much popularity, whether it's LSD or psilocybin, and you know, would you say that there's a time
684
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:18.480
in a place for that recreationally, or are you now kind of from this educator perspective,
685
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:21.680
do you think that all types of treatment should start with a practitioner?
686
00:49:22.640 --> 00:49:30.480
You know, again, it's hard for me to say how someone arrives here, you know, to be frank,
687
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:37.840
even the place that I went to go do ayahuasca, save my life, and knowing what I know today,
688
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:44.320
I would never refer another person there ever again, right? And that's the challenge. And you know,
689
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:54.480
even microdosing, I think it has its place, but again, not a panacea. And I think what we need to
690
00:49:54.480 --> 00:50:03.840
have more education in the West is this kind of cultural context of how these things can be used
691
00:50:04.080 --> 00:50:11.040
and how to support the community in them. I mean, to share, and my wife gives me the permission
692
00:50:11.040 --> 00:50:17.680
to share this story. But she, with our first daughter, she had really, really severe postpartum
693
00:50:17.680 --> 00:50:23.920
depression. And she was born right in this sort of peak of COVID, and so it was it was a really,
694
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:28.560
really hard time. And after about a year and a half, you know, she was done breastfeeding,
695
00:50:28.560 --> 00:50:33.440
but she was still really struggling. I said, hey, like, you have to, you know, try and do
696
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:41.600
something, right? And she ended up microdosing psilocybin. And four days later, she literally came
697
00:50:41.600 --> 00:50:49.600
skipping down the stairs. And she would like, it's, and I mean, to this day, it chokes me up. But you,
698
00:50:49.600 --> 00:50:59.120
you think about who should have more access to care than mothers who are bringing a child
699
00:50:59.120 --> 00:51:05.680
into the world. And I think with that, also people that are, you know, people with terminal illness,
700
00:51:05.680 --> 00:51:12.560
like we, we know that these things are safe. We've seen the safety profile. We should be putting
701
00:51:12.560 --> 00:51:18.320
all resources behind supporting those types of people. And, you know, in my wife's case,
702
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:24.960
she microdose for I think two months, stopped microdosing, and it never came back, right? And
703
00:51:25.680 --> 00:51:33.280
so I think, again, I go back to the importance of research to validate, I would say validate what's
704
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:39.360
kind of known, but to have, have that backing, I think is important. But, you know, same thing,
705
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:46.960
I know a whole bunch of people also who microdose every day. And it's maybe just to kind of tune
706
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:53.360
out a little bit from, from what the day is, right? And that's not the point of these things either.
707
00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:57.920
No, you're taking the edge off something. Well, why not address what you need the end taken off of
708
00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:04.560
and why it's exactly exactly exactly. Yeah, it's a great story. And I think that with microdosing,
709
00:52:04.640 --> 00:52:09.440
a great practitioner will give you a proper protocol. They will be checking in on you. They
710
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:14.720
might be switching your protocol and your dosage also throughout that treatment period. It's a
711
00:52:14.720 --> 00:52:21.120
really great story. And funny enough, I would never send anybody back to where I did IOSCA at all.
712
00:52:21.120 --> 00:52:25.760
I think you have to be called to it. And I really hope that what our listeners are taking away
713
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:31.920
from this conversation. It's what I say all the time. There is no perfect blueprint for any of us.
714
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:37.440
When it comes to food, supplementation, psychedelics, working out, like whatever it is, it's all,
715
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:42.640
it's also bio individual. And we should really honor that. But I would say if there's curiosity
716
00:52:42.640 --> 00:52:49.360
around it, then now is definitely the time to start doing some investigation, looking at some of
717
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:54.160
the ways that these modalities are being used therapeutically. And for people who are hesitant,
718
00:52:54.160 --> 00:52:58.400
then honor the fact that you're hesitant about it and continue to do your research instead of
719
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:03.600
just jumping into something. But I think that that's just so, so important because the protocol
720
00:53:03.600 --> 00:53:09.600
is going to look different for absolutely everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more.
721
00:53:09.600 --> 00:53:15.200
Okay. So the mental health space is just evolving so quickly. Psychedelics are at the forefront of
722
00:53:15.200 --> 00:53:20.320
the change. How are you hoping, let's say, that this field is going to be transforming healthcare?
723
00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:24.480
Like do you have a vision of the next five years or 10 years? I have a feeling that you're probably
724
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:28.240
going to say that it's transforming a lot faster. Maybe then what you anticipated? What do you think?
725
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:35.760
When I started Numenus, I could have never have dreamed that we're at where we are today. And
726
00:53:36.640 --> 00:53:44.320
if I think, yeah, 10 to 20 years out, I go back to this idea of curative intent when I think about
727
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:51.760
mental health. I think when we receive these diagnosis of depression or whatever, I see so many
728
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:57.600
people who get so attached to that. And they think, oh, I'm a depressed person. I have this
729
00:53:57.600 --> 00:54:04.720
depression for the rest of my life. And that's just not the case. And I think we need to be
730
00:54:04.720 --> 00:54:12.000
able to approach this from a curative intent standpoint. And I think that's what psychedelics
731
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:19.680
present the opportunity for if done. And I think we've hit that nail on the head quite a few
732
00:54:19.680 --> 00:54:25.920
times. But if done in the right way with the proper intention, being able to have people live
733
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:32.080
full, happy lives. And the other thing that I get really excited about with psychedelics that I
734
00:54:32.080 --> 00:54:36.800
think is in the future. And I think this is where some of the decriminalization movement is important
735
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:41.840
and stuff like that is we don't talk about in mental health. We don't talk about preventative
736
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:48.480
mental health care nearly enough. And it's interesting up in Canada, everybody goes to we have
737
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:52.640
coverage for dentistry. And so everybody goes to the dentist. It doesn't matter if you have
738
00:54:52.640 --> 00:54:57.840
perfect teeth, you go to the dentist every six months. But with our mental health, typically
739
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:05.200
people wait until there's a problem in order to go and do something about it. And I think psychedelics
740
00:55:05.200 --> 00:55:12.080
can play a really interesting role. And maybe once a year or something like that, you're returning to
741
00:55:12.080 --> 00:55:18.960
these practices to remember, to remember what you can do on a daily basis and why you should do it.
742
00:55:19.040 --> 00:55:24.320
So that's that's what I get I get really, really excited about. And you know, and fortunately,
743
00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:30.000
as you mentioned, we live in a time where it doesn't matter which, you know, indication you talk
744
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:36.800
about anxiety, depression, suicidality, substance use disorder, overdoses, everything is going up.
745
00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:43.360
And that's a bizarre thing to think about. If we think about how much we celebrate, you know, all
746
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:49.600
the advancements we've we've made is humans to to think that our our mental suffering is worse.
747
00:55:49.600 --> 00:55:53.680
And I would say both our mental and physical suffering, you know, is potentially worse than it's
748
00:55:53.680 --> 00:55:59.760
ever been. That's a scary thing. That's a very scary thing. So. And often just the identification
749
00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:06.160
as somebody who's constantly stressed or overtired or somebody who's anxious is just identifying
750
00:56:06.160 --> 00:56:13.200
with that label that often it worsens our symptoms over time. And you know, you and I can share
751
00:56:13.200 --> 00:56:18.400
that experience together. Once we started identifying with those feelings within our body, it becomes
752
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:24.160
us. Yeah. So this has been so insightful. I just hope for listeners like if there's any
753
00:56:24.160 --> 00:56:29.520
degree of suffering to start to do some investigation. These are all symptoms from your body asking
754
00:56:29.520 --> 00:56:35.440
you to tune in and we're so multifaceted as human beings. And there's so many parts of us that
755
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:41.280
need to be addressed for some of us. It could be psychedelics first for some of us not. But I think
756
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:48.160
that this conversation's really shed light on the potential of it all in the future. I will say for
757
00:56:48.160 --> 00:56:53.680
me therapeutically, yeah, maybe once a year, I'll kind of go back in. And I will always go guided
758
00:56:53.680 --> 00:56:58.160
back in with someone that I know someone that I trust someone that I have rapport with who really
759
00:56:58.160 --> 00:57:03.200
understands like questioning me and how I'm I'm carrying on with doing the work and the personal
760
00:57:03.200 --> 00:57:08.880
growth after that. But yeah, it's been a pretty profound healing experience for me and dis, you
761
00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:13.920
know, identifying with a lot of the suffering that I've held on to for such a long period of time.
762
00:57:14.560 --> 00:57:19.120
Yeah. So I mean, where can people find you? How do you communicate with your audience? How do we
763
00:57:19.120 --> 00:57:25.520
hear more and learn more about Numinous? Yeah, Numinous.com, encourage people to go there. There's lots
764
00:57:25.520 --> 00:57:32.960
of information, education on different modalities and how we're supporting all of that social media,
765
00:57:33.280 --> 00:57:38.080
and then just paint night quests on social media for all my personal opinions of things.
766
00:57:38.080 --> 00:57:42.640
I love it. We're going to link everything up below. Closing question, just some rapid fire.
767
00:57:42.640 --> 00:57:46.800
What would you say are the most common mistakes or misconceptions that you're seeing people make
768
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:52.640
with their health? Just that it's not accessible. There's so much you can do. Every day, there's
769
00:57:52.640 --> 00:57:57.200
so much you can do. It doesn't have to be complicated. There's, there's, you sit on the cushion
770
00:57:57.200 --> 00:58:02.000
for five minutes, you know, like there's, there's little things that can be done. What's your favorite
771
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:09.360
ancient healing remedy? Meditation for sure. If you believe our listeners with just one takeaway
772
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:14.160
that you're most passionate about right now, what would it be? I think, you know, with what I've
773
00:58:14.160 --> 00:58:20.880
seen with psychedelics, I think we're returning to this idea of, of wholeness and, and to seeing
774
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:26.640
ourselves both our physical health, our mental health, our spiritual health that there's, they all
775
00:58:26.640 --> 00:58:33.120
have to be in alignment. And I think we're seeing people really come back to wanting to be
776
00:58:33.120 --> 00:58:39.760
dedicated and disciplined to that. And that's really inspiring for me. Beautiful. Let's keep,
777
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:46.000
you know, calling in practitioners to really create the safe ethical framework so that we can
778
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:50.560
honor these cultural roots of like, where psychedelics come from so that they can just be used for
779
00:58:50.560 --> 00:58:54.880
the highest good in the future. Thank you for the work that you do. It's, it's so important. It's so
780
00:58:54.880 --> 00:59:05.040
powerful. And thank you for being here today. Thanks so much. Thank you for having me.