EP 3:57 The Neuroscience of Addiction with Dr. Nicole Labor

WEBVTT
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It's a hot topic.
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It's crazy.
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It's crazy.
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So Okay.
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So with stimulants like methamphetamine specifically, but really any any drug that's like highly rewarding, um, you when you pair it with something that's also naturally highly rewarding, like sex, right?
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Right.
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And then chemsex.
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Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
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Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
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Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
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All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
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Thank you for tuning in.
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Um I've told you guys season three is our season of big names, and we have a big name here today.
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Big name.
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Um I get I get so many people sending me the the uh reels from Facebook and Instagram of our guest today, Dr.
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Nicole Labor.
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Have you seen this lady?
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Have you heard this lady?
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Have you heard, have you seen her?
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Have you heard her?
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Um and I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes.
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But my I wanted to introduce my new friend, hopefully, um, Dr.
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Nicole Labor.
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She is the um the addict, she's an addiction medical professional, um, sweary godmother and person in long-term recovery.
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Um, I I discovered you first, Nicole, from about, I guess like 20 weeks ago or something from your reel about chemsex.
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Um, because it, of course, popped up in my algorithm because that's all I talk about is chemsex.
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Um, but really, you're really somebody who catches my who caught my attention.
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It catches everybody's attention.
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Um, but I just want to say welcome.
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Thank you for being here.
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We really appreciate it.
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Well, thanks for having me.
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I'm glad to be here.
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If you can't tell, I'm a little nervous for some reason.
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I don't know.
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But um, I ordered your book.
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It's not your latest book.
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I guess it was the 2019 book.
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Um It's the best one.
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Adictoholic Deconstructed.
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I just want to say I've requ I've recommended this to all my clients.
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And if you're listening, I want you to order this book because I've just I've heard the science, I've been around the science, I've I've talked about the science for so long, but just this book really broke it down in a way that helped me finally get some things clicked in me.
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And and as a result, I feel like I have been a better coach, a better support to the people that I serve.
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So thank you very much for writing this.
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Yeah, thank you.
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Thanks for your support.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So I want to start with a few questions.
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Um can you help us?
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So there's a you, as you say in your book, there's like a little debate about addiction is the is a disease, addiction is not a disease.
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Um, you know, I have I've had my opinions about the way the word has been used.
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Um, like you one of your senses here is some call it disease because bless their bleeding hearts, they need to believe that the addict has no choice in their fuckery and tomfoolery.
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Um and I feel like I lean on that side as far as like people throwing around the word, but to read your book, I I've I've changed, I've changed my mind.
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And so can you just help us as listeners explain to us how addiction is a disease?
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Sure.
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Well, I mean, that's a loaded question because it is a really long explanation.
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But so realistically, I think the way that I look at it, and and uh my good buddy Dr.
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Kenny Clark, you know, he says, um, he says, what difference does it make, honestly?
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Right?
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Like there's something wrong.
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Something is wrong and we need to address it.
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But the reality is this like with any other disease process, what we see is like especially chronic diseases, we'll see like people making choices and doing things like to themselves, what they eat, how they move, how they don't move, what you know, they smoke cigarettes, they use drugs, like they make choices.
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And for a certain number of them, those continued choices result in biological dysfunction, physiological dysfunction.
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You get a change in the body, right?
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So, like you can smoke cigarettes forever, and some people develop COPD, which is the inability of the lungs to exchange air, right?
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That's an actual physiological change.
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COPD doesn't occur in every smoker, it only occurs in the people who have the lung change.
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Addiction is a maladaptive learning system, right?
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Our brains do what they normally do, but in a certain percentage of people, they get uh their brain starts wiring in a way that's different than other people.
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And when that happens, it becomes increasingly difficult for them to stop using.
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It becomes increasingly difficult for them to prioritize the things that they should prioritize.
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Um, and their impulse control gets terrible, and then they develop learning loops that are associated with the behavior.
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That's the disease process.
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There's a physiological change in the brain.
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That is the disease.
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Not everybody gets that.
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Right.
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Right.
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Okay.
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That helped me.
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That helped me understand kind of yeah.
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Just helping helping people know that they they keep doing something that they don't want to do, right?
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I mean, that is the nature of addiction, right?
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Right.
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Right, right.
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So one thing that you explain in the book that helped me finally get this.
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I don't know, and maybe maybe everybody listening understands it.
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But when we're brain is flooded with dopamine, because with, you know, we're we're dealing here with crystal meth mainly.
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Um, some of the listeners are dealing with methadrone methadrone or monkey dust, uh PV, alpha, whatever.
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Um, all of those, you know, flood the brain with dopamine.
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And like you said, most any addiction is it fucks with dopamine, right?
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Yes.
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But so then the brain downregulates the transmitters.
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Right.
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Right.
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I've heard that so many times, but never conceptualized it until you explained how it you you compared it to Walmart cashiers.
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Um could you could you go through that with us?
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And I think that we could better understand how that works.
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That's uh it's actually funny that you say that because like I went back to that explanation and I was like, I don't love this anymore.
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Really?
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Uh yes.
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So I have a new one.
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Okay.
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Yeah, use your new one.
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Okay, okay.
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Okay.
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So your reward center, right?
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Your mid-brain is a baseball field.
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And you have a hundred players on that blade baseball field.
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They're just standing around waiting to catch balls.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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That relates to my audience.
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You see where I went?
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Right.
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Thank you.
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The balls are the dopamine molecules.
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Ah.
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Perfect.
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The players, the players are the receptors.
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Gotcha.
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So every time you do something enjoyable, your brain dumps a bunch of baseballs into the field.
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Okay.
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You need, let's say you need 10 players to catch a ball in order for your brain to go, yeah, I like that.
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I'm going to do it again.
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Right?
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So normally things like that you enjoy doing, so you know, whatever, playing an instrument, listening to music, exercising, things like that will release like twenty to thirty baseballs into the field.
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Okay.
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Probably because if there's a hundred players on the field, there's a good chance ten of them are going to catch a ball.
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Right.
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Okay.
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Right.
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So your brain goes, Oh yeah, I like that.
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Okay.
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So now you start using something like methamphetamine that dumps 400 balls into the field.
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Okay.
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So now you have 400 balls being dumped into this field.
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All the players are catching balls.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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So the manager of the team comes out and is like, I am not fucking paying the salary for all these players.
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I don't need them.
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So he starts pulling players off the field.
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Okay.
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So the receptors get downregulated.
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Okay.
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And he essentially then, you know, keeps pulling them off because we keep dumping balls into the field.
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And now we're left with maybe ten or eleven players scattered about the field.
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Okay.
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So now when you listen to music and you dump twelve balls into the field, chances are those ten players are not going to catch them in time.
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Uh yes.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So things that used to be enjoyable are no longer enjoyable.
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Yeah.
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And and the only way for you to feel good anymore is to dump 400 balls into that field to ensure those ten players catch one.
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And so the drugs become essentially the normal.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That that would that did hit more.
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That did hit.
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When you started with a sports analogy, I was like, eh, I know.
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But then you said balls.
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Then you said balls.
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That's all it takes.
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That's all it takes.
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Um so then when does the when what when does the manager start putting players back on the field?
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With time?
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With time away from large quantities of dopamine.
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So as long as you keep dumping dopamine into that field, they're not going to put players back, which is why, you know, I talk a lot about um harm reduction versus abstinence, you know, optimization.
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But the reality is if you're dumping any large quantity dopamine into that space, you're not going to get players back on the field.
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Okay.
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Gotcha.
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Even if even tapered off.
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So what if as far as harm reduction goes, if it was somebody was tapering off, are they they're at least getting there, or are you saying, what are you saying there?
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Aaron Powell So it well, no, because the reality is like if you're using the meth, if you're tapering off, the the harm reduction is that you in in your life, right?
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You're you're spending less money, you're spending less time high, you're spending, you're possibly making fewer bad choices.
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But as far as brain healing goes, the brain doesn't care if you're dumping 400 balls in once a day or 10 times a day.
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Um the players are not gonna come back as long as that part of the brain knows it could get it.
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And the and the other issue is like the the crossover, the cross addiction or whatever, like so substituting one drug for another.
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So people who stop using meth but start using cannabis or kratom or something like that, because it's lesser evil, and it definitely is, right?
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You're definitely not gonna be a psychotic from Kratom or something like that.
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But um but you're still dumping a large number of balls in that field, and so you're not bringing players back into the mix.
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Um, gotcha.
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So your your reel on chemsex, um you you talked about the the stacking and how chemsex is a a bit unique.
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Can you can you go through that with us?
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Um yeah, I will.
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I will.
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I I just want to tell you, like, I I put that reel out because I think I had like a couple of people ask me when I was doing a ser a series, like, hey, could you do one on chemsex?
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And I was like, sure.
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You know, a couple people are asking.
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That is still my biggest fucking reel.
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Like I've noticed.
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It's it's a hot topic.
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It's crazy.
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It's crazy.
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So okay, so with stimulants like methamphetamine specifically, but really any drug that's like highly rewarding, um, you when you pair it with something that's also naturally highly rewarding, like sex, right?
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Right.
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And then you also take into account that a lot of times, especially when we're talking about chemsex, we're not just talking about straight, you know, intimacy.
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We're not talking about just like this monogamous sexual relationship.
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A lot of times there's porn and there's fetish and there's all kinds of other things.
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All of those things start getting paired together.
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So the brain starts treating them like it's one experience.
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So sex becomes a drug, like cue, and the drug becomes a sexual cue.
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And so then people start getting what we call like euphoric recall, right?
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Which your brain is so fucking good at pulling up like highlight reels.
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And it's like it'll show you the intensity and the arousal and the confidence, like whatever felt so good.
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Um, but it doesn't give you like the crash or the consequences or the three days of fucking misery afterwards, right?
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It doesn't give you the emotional weight that a lot of people experience.
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Um so the craving isn't doesn't start as like, oh, I just I want math.
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Um, it starts as like being horny, opening an app, uh seeing a particular kind of porn, or thinking about a certain person, right?
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Remembering an experience.
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Those cues will light up the whole learned reward network.
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And that's what makes the recovery from chemsex really complicated because you can avoid the drug, but presumably we don't want somebody to have to avoid like sexuality for the rest of their life, right?
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Yeah.
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You have to uncouple the two things and teach the brain that like sex can be rewarding without the drug.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Process, you know, and one thing that you said in your reel at the end was you're not gonna like this, but it's time.
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You know, it's time.
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A lot of time.
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And I think you you have to protect yourself, like you said, with it it you you can't to me, it's difficult for you to return to your norm.
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Like, like you said, watching porn or even just opening an app can start the process.
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Uh you know, um, hearing a sound.
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And like I was I was reading a study this week about um people with methamphetamine use disorder, the the visual cues last forever.
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Like for me, like I was at a restaurant, it's been eight years in my recovery.
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I was at a restaurant and they were making creme brulee and I heard the torch light.
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You know, and it's like I'm just taken back all of a sudden.
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Like, when can I not just eat in a restaurant?
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You know, but my brain was like torch, smoke, pipe, you know, memory.
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It just goes.
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Um, it's just interesting to me how it just stays stays in there.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, and that's the glutamate piece, right?
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It's really fucking annoying our stupid brains.
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Um but like Yeah.
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Go ahead.
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Go ahead.
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Yeah.
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No, you go ahead.
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Yeah, I was gonna say, can you talk about glutamate?
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Yeah.
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So um glutamate is like, I always call it the executive assistant to dopamine, right?
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Yeah.
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So dopamine is like dopamine is what stamps something as important.
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Like, do this, remember this.
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But glutamate is like what's building the file around that.
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So every time something is stamped as important, glutamate's like, let me write that down.
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And then anything surrounding that is, you know, getting cataloged.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:28.159
So like when you repeatedly pair two things together that are rewarding, you these glutaminergic circuits are strengthening those connections because you're getting such reward from the whole process, really.
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:39.200
So um, you have like uh things like uh NMDA and AMPA receptor activity, long-term potentiation, right?
00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:40.320
Which like who cares?
00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.440
Basically, neurons are repeatedly firing together.
00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:47.759
Yeah, they become they become more efficient at activating each other.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:56.480
So when you're firing neurons related to sex and you're firing neurons related to drug use at the same exact time, they get really good at activating each other.
00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:57.919
That's what glutamate does.
00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:06.880
It kind of ties the whole thing together so that everything can be essentially more efficient, although in our case it's it's more problematic.
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:15.440
But the design of it was to make our brains more efficient, efficient at doing things for survival and you know, for for benefit.
00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:32.960
So like your brain learns, you know, meth feels good, um, but it's it's meth plus sex plus grinder plus this type of porn plus this room plus this person plus this time of night, all start to become these like conditioned stimuli.
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:41.279
Um and after enough like rep repetition, um you don't need the drug anymore to start the loop.
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.839
Just any cue will activate that loop.
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:48.000
You know, just like you said, like you hear a torch, like it's the same process.
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:49.519
Um, yeah.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:56.720
Like I I don't I remember even me, I the first time I got IV vitamins, like I went and got IV vitamins.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:57.200
Yeah.
00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:04.720
Um, the taste in my mouth reminded me of heroin, and it had been 20 years.
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:05.920
Oh wow.
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:11.440
But I went, holy shit, don't let any fucking new people in recovery get IV vitamins.
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:12.240
Right.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:13.039
Right.
00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:13.519
Yeah.
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:14.079
Yeah.
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:14.640
Yeah.
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:15.279
Yeah.
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:15.839
Yeah.
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:23.920
A lot of my listeners and me we go to give blood, you know, in early recovery that that we've used, you know, intravenously.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:24.400
Yeah.
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:25.839
Huge huge sugar.
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:27.279
Huge sugar.
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:28.400
Takes a long time.
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.880
It took a long time for me to not lose it, you know, when I was given blood.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:33.839
Yeah.
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:45.519
Um something you said too, or in the book too about glutamate is doesn't it you were talking about you also get um lying can be stamped as pleasurable, right?
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:52.720
Because lying and addiction, and so then you're kind of a you kind of get a pleasure from lying, from being dishonest.
00:18:53.039 --> 00:19:18.960
Or in in the chemsex case, maybe it's the sneaky cruising, like going to the to the uh park, and that gets stamped as along with the meth and addiction, or being sneaky, or stealing, or you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that go along with a lot of people who use chemsex that get, you know, kind of in the profile of you're going to be dishonest, you're gonna steal, you're gonna try to get one over on me, all that kind of thing.
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:19.440
Is that right?
00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:21.119
Is that the is that what's happening?
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:23.119
Yeah, well, and it's all the same.
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.319
It's it's all part of the same exact process.
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.240
It's just whatever got you that dopamine release, right?
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:46.960
So if I know that lying, if I know that being shady, if I know that being secretive gets me to that end result of tons of dopamine, then my brain is cataloging those behaviors as linked to the dopamine.
00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:47.599
Yeah.
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:48.000
You know?
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:56.799
And so then just lying or being shady in some way or sneaky or whatever will actually like make me feel a little excited with the anticipation, right?
00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.599
It's the anticipation that starts to kick in.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:14.079
But uh but I see f like family members, friends do they they kind of make a moral judgment sometimes on on the on the person for lying.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.359
I mean, is it just part of the the whole packet?
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.440
The disease the the disease?
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:20.880
Uh yeah.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.000
Well, of course it is.
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:27.519
So so like when we're talking about the disease of addiction, right, we're talking about multiple things happening, right?
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:36.319
So we're talking about the dopamine and the the reward center and all of that, but but when we're building um when we're building this road, right?
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:42.240
So the road, like so we're gonna call it the road to pleasure or escape from discomfort, right?
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:55.920
We discover that how using drugs and having sex at the same time, and then all the things that are surrounding it, the lying or the anticipation, the planning, the the app, the dating, all that stuff gets linked together, right?
00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:03.920
And so we essentially um we're building this road uh from A to B.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:05.920
I feel A, I want to feel B.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.359
I'm either escaping discomfort or I'm chasing the high.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:10.400
Yeah.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:12.480
Our brains are efficient.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:17.359
So every time we do the same thing, that road gets wider and wider, right?
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.119
So we're we're we keep using, we keep doing it, we keep engaging.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.440
That becomes the widest road in our brain.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.319
That becomes the most efficient way for our brain to get from A to B.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:39.920
So in order for us to start building a new road, in order for us to find another way to escape discomfort and feel good, we have to get off that road, right?
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.880
We have to get off that one and start building a new one.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:46.799
And then there's a period of discomfort while that's happening.
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:54.640
That being said, part of that process is the the decision making part of our brain, right?
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.519
The part of our brain where uh higher cognitive function happens, executive function.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.720
That stops being used, right?
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.559
Because we have this highway.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:06.319
I don't need to think it through.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:07.440
I don't need to plan.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:09.440
I don't need to look at pros and cons.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.440
I'm just gonna get from A to B.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:12.880
That becomes weaker.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:13.440
Okay.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:21.519
And the weakness of that is associated with like so people with addiction know that lying is wrong.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:27.839
Most people I know who have addiction are fucking amazing people and they have great value systems and they know right from wrong.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:36.480
And in fact, their guilt and shame about their lying and shadiness probably feeds that loop more than anything.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:43.519
Um, but the fact is, so but the so why are these people who know right from wrong, why are they lying?
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:48.160
Why are they, you know, doing the thing that's making them feel guilty?
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.880
And it's because their executive function is impaired, right?
00:22:50.960 --> 00:23:00.400
Their ability to to prioritize values over that need for the gratification is impaired.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:08.960
And it takes recognition and pause and like intention to to re-engage it.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:09.359
Yeah.
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:18.720
So people that want to judge, I mean, like you say, oh, family members, people want to judge for the lying and the and I'm like, I want to be like, well, fuck those people, you know, but I get it.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:19.279
I know.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:19.759
Yeah.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.480
Their family.
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:23.519
Right.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:24.799
Right.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:25.599
Right, right.
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:25.920
Yeah.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:26.319
Yeah.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.119
I mean, being lied to so many times and you know, that kind of thing.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.559
Um Yeah.
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:44.640
There there's a fine line, I think, with families in terms of trying not to enable, but also trying to try to have boundaries, trying to understand their disease, but also, you know, protecting themselves too.
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.279
Yeah.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:45.920
Right.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:48.400
Well, and that's what I mean, that's not unreasonable.
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:48.880
Yeah.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:53.359
You know, that's not but they but the fact is that you know, we do have to remember this too.
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:55.519
Family members have a choice also.
00:23:55.759 --> 00:24:08.559
You know, they can set up their boundaries, they can walk away, they can, you know, i to be able to say to somebody like, well, I suffered through your addiction for 20 years.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:11.119
Your choice, right?
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:12.400
Yeah, that's on you.
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:12.880
Yeah.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:14.480
That that's not on me.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.759
I I fully admit I was a piece of shit for 20 years.
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:18.319
Yeah.
00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:21.519
But n nobody held a gun to your head to stay.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:22.240
Right.
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:22.960
You know?
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:28.480
So yeah, I think everybody needs to take some accountability for their own shit.
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:34.799
You know, is it fair that you that you had to deal with that and someone you loved was making you feel bad or whatever?
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:36.160
No, it wasn't fair.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:37.680
Life's not fucking fair.
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:38.240
Right.
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.039
Diabetics can't eat cookies all the time.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:42.640
That seems unfair.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:45.119
Right.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:54.480
So one of the one of the top challenges that I see, my clients and just people listening and and dialing in, for chemsex cravings.
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.000
So you talk a lot about cravings in in your book.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:02.799
And one of the examples you gave is is the the addict wanting to go to the store.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:05.920
You know, I'm just going to the store to pick something up, right?
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:10.400
And the I think it was a parent, or we're like, no, you're gonna, you're gonna use.
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:13.039
No, and no, I'm just I promise, I'm just going.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:20.079
And in their head, they do think I'm just driving to the store, but then they get in the car and they go get drugs.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:20.720
Yes.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:21.279
Right.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:34.160
So I see that a lot with with my chemsex clients, is they really believe, like, I'm just opening grinder to see who's on, or I'm just going to that party to whatever, and they feel really strong.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:38.240
But then as soon as they get there, or or one example was re-entry.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:45.440
Like when you go on the holiday, you go on vacation, as soon as you land back home, you're there.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.319
Like you go straight to the, you take the Uber to the dealer's house.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:49.759
You don't even go home.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:51.519
Right.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:52.640
Right.
00:25:53.119 --> 00:26:01.039
And could you help us explain like what we could do, maybe, and what's going on in the brain in those circumstances.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:07.039
So, I mean, so cravings uh don't are not always gonna just like announce themselves, right?
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.039
Like, oh, I want to use drugs.
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:10.160
I want to use this drug.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:11.759
Your brain is smarter than that.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:13.920
And so it starts to negotiate.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:19.680
Um, it's what it's like the bargaining, permission, giving, cognition part of craving.
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:30.880
So it's not it, it's like I'm not gonna use, I'm I'm just gonna check Grindr to see who's on there or to see if so-and-so's boyfriend's on there.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:31.599
Right.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:39.920
Um, but if that app is part of the conditioned network, then opening it is never gonna be neutral.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:41.440
It's a cue, right?
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:55.839
And so now you've activated hippocampal memories and those glutamine pathways and that anticipation of reward, and suddenly that craving that went from like a two is now a fucking eight, and you're off to the races.
00:26:56.559 --> 00:27:01.680
Um, and so essentially people wind up feeling like they tricked themselves, right?
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:02.079
Yeah.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:07.680
Um and then they start beating themselves up because they're like, Did I really know though?
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.079
Like, was that really what I wanted to do?
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:21.200
But the problem is is the addicted brain does not have to convince you to use, it only has to convince you to take the next step toward it.
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:21.839
Oh.
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:35.440
And so when you have a whole bunch of these things stacked together in the same learning loop, it's much easier for it to just kind of flick one of those switches and then all the whole fucking network lights up.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:36.240
Right.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:36.960
Right.
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:39.920
That's that's yeah, that's helpful.
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:40.799
That's helpful.
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:51.200
So, I mean, you know, very practically, what what what I tell a lot of clients is you're gonna have to block the phone so that you don't have access to these apps.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:58.400
You're you're you're gonna have to set your life up in a way that's it has safeguards because like you said, the recognition, the pause.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:00.720
The pause is the hardest part, I think.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.400
Oh yeah.
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:05.519
It takes practice too, like anything else.
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:08.000
The pause requires practice.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:10.400
Yeah.
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:12.319
Go ahead.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:12.640
Yeah.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:13.599
No, go ahead.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:18.240
No, please finish what you're gonna say.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:27.200
I was just gonna say, like the so I I mean, what we tell anybody to do anytime we're talking about these glutamine loops or whatever, um, is interruption, right?
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:35.759
So the pause may take some time to actually get, but it's gonna be you can you can actually like interrupt the loop at multiple places.
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:44.559
It's not necessarily gonna stop it, but remember the the building of the road comes with the repetition of the same thing.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:51.759
So if we can interrupt that process often enough, it's not as efficiently happening.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:29:14.640
So if if you stop and splash cold water on your face when you have the thought, if you jump up and down in place for 30 seconds, if you, you know, uh run around the block, take a cold plunge, like jump in the shower, if you do something just to even if you pick right back up after that behavior and continue the loop, you have put a a chink in the armor.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.240
You have essentially uh interrupted that chain.
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.559
And the more often you do that, the easier it's gonna be to find a pause.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.279
Mm-hmm.
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:24.480
I love that.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:25.920
I love that.
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:35.759
And and I think, you know, if the listeners sometimes will will view be very black and white about, well, I I paused it, but I still used, so it doesn't work.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:36.319
Right.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:46.000
But like you're saying, like I think you use the what was it in the uh another analogy of the the brain being like a forest and your first time through the path.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:54.480
It's like you're trying to pa tamp down everything and get through the get through the woods or whatever, and then eventually you keep going through and it becomes a road.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:00.240
You know, which I've I've heard that before, but I I just think again, it's going to take repetition, guys.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:04.960
Like keep interrupting the pattern any way possible each time.
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:06.160
Right.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:06.799
Right.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.680
Well, and and for the most part, the true addiction did not form with one use, right?
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:14.079
You didn't use math and have sex, and then that was it.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:21.519
You I mean, yeah, it was great, you know, but for most people, it's not like disrupting your life immediately.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.160
Um, so yeah, the first time you walk through a forest, you just create a footpath.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:29.359
But every time you take that same path, it gets wider and wider.
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:30.240
And that's the road.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:32.720
That's the road we're building from A to B.
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:35.200
So we have to get off that road.
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:38.319
But think about driving anywhere.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:45.440
Like if you want to go to the fucking, I don't know, Starbucks, you're gonna take the same road you always take.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:52.720
And even if you're like today, I'm taking a different, I'm gonna take that back road or I'm gonna take the new road, sometimes you remember to do that.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.839
But like when you're on autopilot, you're going on the main road, right?
00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:06.480
So it isn't until you repeatedly take the different route, a back road, that that starts to become more second nature to you.
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:08.960
Um, and it's the same way with everything.
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:10.720
It's just the way our brains work.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:36.319
So the more you interrupt that process, the more you pause, the more you eliminate one of those elements that have been stacked in that glutamate dopamine fucking clusterfuck, you know, the more likely you are to be able to engage a different behavior and then create a new path of like getting away from whatever discomfort you're feeling.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:36.960
Yeah.
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:37.440
Yeah.
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:38.319
I love that.
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:38.880
Yeah.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:52.480
So a lot of a lot of you listening, a lot of the clients, you're trying to get from A to B in terms of uncomfortable emotion, like loneliness, rejection, you know, in the gay community, feeling isolated, all of those things.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.240
You want to get rid of that as fast as you can, and you go to to myth.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:00.000
It sounds simple, but find a different B, right?
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:02.799
Feel uncomfortable, find a different way to deal with that.
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:03.680
Right.
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:08.319
And and it's never, it is never going to work as well.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.240
I mean, like, let's just put that out there.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:22.799
Because I think that a lot of people get caught up in this idea that, like, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna be miserable the rest of my life because I'm never gonna have this level of, you know, euphoria.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:25.279
And and and the fact is you may not.
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:40.720
Um, but what I think that I think that gets overlooked is that if you do the work to find like meaning and purpose and like depth in your life, you may actually find that more rewarding than those blasts of dopamine.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:47.839
And you may at some point, you know, you may look fondly back on the days of and go, oh yeah, that was such a good time.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:10.720
But like, um, yeah, okay, but ultimately your life is rich and meaningful now, and you don't have all of the downsides, you know, and and I don't know where in in the history of our lives and our society we came up with this idea that like we are just entitled to always feel amazing and never have to feel like shit or be uncomfortable.
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:15.920
Um but that's what a lot of people they're like, oh yeah, no, well, I I don't understand.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:19.039
Like, why do I have to feel uncomfortable or shitty ever?
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:20.559
Because you're fucking human.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:21.599
Right.
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:23.039
Right.
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:23.440
Right.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:29.440
And we're we're trained to just instantly if we feel bad, grab your phone or you feel bad, grab something.
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:29.680
Right.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:30.799
Or take a med.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:32.000
Or take a med.
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:32.880
Right?
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:33.519
Yeah.
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:34.079
Yeah.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.160
Our whole society is trained that way.
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:44.880
I mean, you can't it's it does not help to have addiction in a society where we perpetuate the idea of pharmaceutical intervention for fucking everything.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:45.440
Yeah.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:46.240
Yeah.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:48.480
That is right.
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:49.200
That is right.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:50.559
Thank you for that.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:55.759
Um yeah, and the other part about chemsex is it also involves a lot of process addiction.
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:58.880
You know, there's sex addiction can be in there.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:10.880
Um it's been there's some studies going on that's looking at how it resembles gambling addiction because of the way we're scrolling on Grindr, you know, looking for the the next three cherries going on the grid.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:12.400
Um is that a little different?
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.880
Is that do you approach those differently?
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:24.239
So I don't I only approach different addictions differently based on the individual, because it's like a lot of the reading the room, right?
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:27.920
Like what is it that you're gonna hear and understand what makes sense to you?
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:32.000
But as far as I'm concerned, addiction is addiction.
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:42.880
Like I can we can eliminate drug, gambling, sex, pornography, um you know, other people.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:55.440
Uh we can eliminate all of those and simply look at this thing dumps dopamine, creates glutamate loops, causes reward, helps someone feel relief.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:58.800
They start using it compulsively, brain rewires.
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:00.800
Now that's the only solution.
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.559
Now they can't do anything else.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:11.119
Now their executive function is is not so great, they're not making good choices, their impulse control is terrible because this thing has sort of overtaken.
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:14.159
Doesn't matter what the thing is, right?
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:32.480
It's it's all the same to the brain, which is why it's always so concerning to me that like people don't understand that because they are at much higher risk than of stopping one behavior and jumping immediately to another one thinking it's different because it looks different.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.719
Externally, it's different, you know, but it's not neurologically.
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.199
A lot of addiction really is addiction.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:50.480
And I know that in the like the DSM doesn't have like porn addiction as like a thing, but it's the same fucking behavior, same loops, same uh brain chemistry.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:56.239
So we're gonna look at it the same, we're gonna treat it the same, we're gonna identify it the same.
00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:57.119
Mm-hmm.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:57.840
Yeah.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:07.280
Yeah, I mean, in my own experience, when I stopped using myth, I then I still kept being sexually compulsive.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:09.760
You know, it still kept going.
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:16.559
You know, so i I did kind of trade one for the other too, in my own experience.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:18.719
Right.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:19.519
Right.
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:21.679
Yeah, I well, yeah.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:25.679
And I mean obviously pharmacologically, drugs are different, right?
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:26.000
Yeah.
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:40.239
Because I I mean I don't really approach I don't really approach different addictions differently because the object of the addiction, I approach it differently because of the person in front of me and what function that is serving for you.
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:41.440
Right.
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:56.960
So yeah, I mean ultimately though, like yes, obviously like the way that we go about addressing like meth methamphetamine is going to have a huge dopamine component that perhaps another where alcohol is gonna have a big GABA component, you know.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:04.800
And so like we're gonna treat those things a little bit differently, but really I we see it with gastric bypass all the time.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:18.880
People get gastric bypass and then they develop alcohol addiction or opiate addiction, and we're yeah, because nobody really bothered to evaluate the fact that you were actually using food as a coping mechanism, and nobody addressed that.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:28.639
And so when we took away your coping skill and didn't provide you any new ones, it should be no fucking surprise that when alcohol hits your system fast, you were like, oh shit.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:29.199
Yeah.
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:42.000
So there's that's why I think um, you know, people that get gastric bypass wind up having a higher incidence of addiction and like just all the different things will cross over for a lot of people.
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:43.760
Mm-hmm.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:44.480
Yeah.
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:45.199
Yes.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:46.719
Yes, I agree.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:38:00.000
Um, well, the the last part of your book I think is really good in terms of you you said so much effort is being exerted on teaching addicts how to stay clean and not die that life after not dying seems to get forgotten.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.119
Um and I and I th and I agree with that.
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.159
It's like, what do we do after okay, I've quit?
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:06.639
Right.
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:09.599
But now the now the hard part begins, right?
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:11.039
But how do I find?
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:11.360
Yeah.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.880
Well, and that's what I mean, that's what the second book is about.
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:16.239
Okay.
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.000
The adictaholic reconstruction.
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:19.840
Reconstructed, okay Yeah.
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:28.400
So we deconstructed what your brain was doing in addiction, and now we're reconstructing our lives after we've not died.
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:29.440
Nice.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:30.559
Yeah.
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:31.280
Nice.
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.119
So I will order that for sure.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:34.719
But you do one.
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:36.159
Oh, thank you.
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:43.599
Um and you do list what you did in terms of your your spiritual practices, or I don't know if you call them spiritual practices.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:52.239
Um and I did like um also uh Nicole in her book says if you have a problem with higher power, just replace it with purpose, right?
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:53.039
Sure.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:53.440
Yeah.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:55.119
What is your purpose?
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.159
Yeah, well, yeah, find meaning.
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:00.079
Find meaning, yeah.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:01.360
Yeah.
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:09.519
Um and so the the last part really gets is talking about get connected, get to know yourself, set goals, learn mindfulness.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:13.920
I mean, there's a lot of great advice in there in terms of what do I do now?
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:14.400
Right?
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:20.239
And also kind of like, how do I approach life now that everything does seem dull?
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.719
Like I look at a rainbow and I don't see anything, you know.
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.039
How do we how do we manage that?
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.320
Well, again, everybody's favorite answer, uh, time, right?
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:33.519
You give it some time.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:34.320
Yeah.
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.519
Um, but you can dopamine stack.
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:50.559
So you so the things that used to dump 12 or 20 balls into your fields before you started using um highly rewarding substances and behaviors, go back to doing those things.
00:39:50.800 --> 00:40:06.239
They're not going to be immediately enjoyable, but they will release the most amount of dopamine into your field so that you'll start feeling better faster because as those receptors are coming back, it'll they'll start to recognize those behaviors.
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:15.199
And so I would like to do multiple things that you like to do, like listen to music outside in the sunlight while you're exercising or some shit.
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.039
You know, some people like those things.
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:26.719
Um, spend extra time with your grandchildren or you know, volunteer at a fucking animal shelter or whatever.
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:32.639
Like find things that you think would be enjoyable, and even if they're not, keep doing them anyway.
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:45.519
And then, and then work on your purpose, work on finding your purpose or your meaning, or you know, if you can, um if you have any kind of like religion or spiritual attachment to anything, find that.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.519
That works very quickly.
00:40:47.760 --> 00:41:00.159
Um yeah, so just kind of like, but be patient, wait, be bored, learn how to be bored, find other people being bored and be bored together.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:01.840
Yeah.
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:03.679
That that I do hear that a lot.
00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:05.199
How do we learn to be bored?
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:10.800
Well, what can I say to how can I help people who say, recovery is so boring?
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:15.440
Well, I so I would I'm always like, well, identify what that means.
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:16.719
Like, where were you sitting?
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:20.320
Like, are you just sitting at home on your couch and you're like, I'm bored?
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:22.960
Well, go fucking do something then.
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:30.639
Go to the zoo, walk around the mall, buy yourself an ice cream cone.
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:35.840
Like you know, find see if your neighbor wants to play chess.
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:37.840
Like, do something.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:41.280
And and you know, a big part of the recovery communities, right?
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:51.840
So if you're doing any kind of like um meetings, what 12-step meetings or like smart recovery or um Dharma recovery, any of those, right?
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:58.320
Typically they have some sort of social component where you could be like, what are you guys doing?
00:41:58.400 --> 00:41:59.760
Like, are can we have a picnic?
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:01.199
Is there a meetup?
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:10.320
Do we, you know, even just meeting online to like talk, give some people something to do, something to look forward to, seeing the same people every day.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:22.159
Um, once you start being recognized, you go into a a Zoom room where they're having a meeting and you go often enough that people recognize you and they're like, hey, nice to see you again.
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.960
Like, oh, that's a cool hat you're wearing, whatever.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:30.400
Like humans are designed, that's your fucking likes on on social, right?
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:30.960
Yeah.
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:32.719
Like we love that.
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:38.880
Um, so real human interaction that doesn't involve sex and drugs.
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:39.840
Right.
00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:42.239
Right.
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:46.800
And would you would you recommend a detox maybe from social media?
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:48.079
Always.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:48.880
Always.
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:51.519
From porn, from yeah, all of that.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.679
Definitely the trigger things, right?
00:42:53.760 --> 00:43:00.639
The things that like so I recommend doing a deep dive on yourself and looking at what things are linked together.
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.159
So is it a one specific app or is it all dating apps?
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:08.239
Is it um, you know, one specific meetup place?
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:10.159
Is it one specific drug?
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:14.559
Is it one, you know, and then start eliminating those things.
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:35.440
Um, and then if you still find yourself being triggered by like other things, like fringe things, then you start eliminating those and you detox yourself from all those things as long as you can, um, until you start feeling like really bored, really restless, and then make sure you're engaging with other people and doing a recovery thing.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:41.199
You cannot just abstain from something that was making you feel great and just expect that you're gonna fucking be okay.
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:42.480
It's not gonna happen.
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:43.119
Yeah.
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:45.519
You have to start building something new.
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:46.400
Right.
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:46.880
Yeah.
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:47.440
Yes.
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:48.400
Thank you for that.
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:51.679
And then I think we'll we'll wrap it up, but I want to want one more question.
00:43:51.840 --> 00:44:02.320
Something that you said about counting days is that we that I I think you were saying, I I have to go back and look, but that We our brain likes streaks.
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:03.440
Yeah.
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:07.199
So what what is your what is can you expound on that just a little?
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:12.400
I mean, just think about like any like warehouse or workplace, right?
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:17.360
Where they like have the thing on the wall and they're like, it's been 20 something days since our last accident.
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:18.480
Like, yeah.
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:18.719
Yeah.
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:19.360
Okay.
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:24.079
Like that doesn't change that this guy today lost a finger, right?
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:29.760
Just because you had 380 days with no lost fingers doesn't give you his finger back.
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:38.559
But it does kind of lend the idea that the culture here is safety and that we're trying to avoid losing limbs.
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:43.039
So the same concept with like not doing the thing.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:47.920
Some people it really stresses them out too much and they can't count their days.
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:48.960
And that's fine.
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:50.639
There's no right or wrong.
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:55.119
It's simply find, yeah, find what works for your own brain.
00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:01.840
Because like a lot of humans, we are competitive or we really do want, you know, like to check boxes.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:07.519
And so like having so many days in a row, you're like, yeah, I'm piling these on, you know.
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:25.199
Um, but even even that, like, even if you do have a brain that likes, you know, um checking boxes and piling up days, even if you have a slip or you relapse for a period of time and then you jump back on, like, so you use for two weeks and you're like, oh my God, I fucked up, but you had six months.
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:31.280
Well, then just say that you have and then you get you stop and you're on the wagon again for a month.
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:32.719
So now you have seven months.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:33.280
Yeah.
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:36.400
Doesn't matter that it took you eight months to get seven months.
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:37.760
It's still seven months.
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:39.280
Thank you for saying that.
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:40.960
Thank you for saying that.
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:42.320
That's great.
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:44.880
Yeah, because you're still building, right?
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:46.559
You're still building during that time.
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:52.639
So yeah, you don't undo all the good things you've done because you jumped back on that road.
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:53.519
Right.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:54.000
Yeah.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:54.639
Yeah.
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:55.039
Yeah.
00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:55.840
Love it.
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:56.800
Love it.
00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:00.719
Um, well, I hope that you listening have learned something today.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:05.760
You might need to rewind and and listen, but definitely buy Nicole, Dr.
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:07.679
Nicole Labor's books.
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:10.239
Um, I'm going to get the other one and read it.
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:14.000
Um it just, I think it really does help you to understand.
00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:19.599
And I think your family, your friends can uh can really understand what's going on here in your brain.
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:31.440
And and you'll see the importance of why coaches and other and and your your counselors, your therapists, your treatment centers will say, do something with the damn phone, right?
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:32.960
Like lock it down.
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:38.880
You have to be sometimes monitored, chaperoned, you have to have your location shared, whatever it takes.
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:39.360
Right.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:40.960
But it's not forever.
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:42.960
It's not the rest of your life.
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.679
Oh no, it's just a survival mechanism.
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:46.159
Right.
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:46.639
Yeah.
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:47.039
Yeah.
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:53.119
What's what's going to keep you safe and in survival right now isn't necessarily what you need to be doing a year from now for sure.
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:53.599
Yeah.
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:53.920
Yeah.
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:56.480
But like get on the fucking lifeboat.
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:01.840
You can worry about what to do on shore once you make it there, but let's just get in the fucking raft.
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:02.719
Yeah.
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:03.840
That's right.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:13.920
Was there anything that I didn't ask or we were brought up today that you wish we had of, or something that is on your mind that you'd like to mention here?
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:14.719
No.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:16.239
No, I'm I'm good.
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:21.679
I just want to tell you that I like your audience is the best.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:29.199
They're the most they're you guys are the most supportive, the most like the biggest hype men and women.
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:30.800
Um there are some women.
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:42.159
Um yeah, I just I I really appreciate it because I'm like, this is this was a strange room for me to land in.
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:47.519
Well, I I can tell you that you could easily become a gay icon.
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:48.239
Sure.
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:48.559
Okay.
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:51.039
Like uh I'll take it.
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:53.760
But I was that's what I was looking at.
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:56.960
I was like, that there's some reason why she's so popular with.
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.400
I mean, I could see this.
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.400
You're like, take a dolly's place.
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:01.760
Oh my god.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:05.519
Yeah.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:06.880
That's very kind.
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:07.440
Yeah.
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:08.239
Yeah.
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:11.280
Well, you just you have it all, you know.
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:16.559
It's you, you, you're s really helping, but you're also just the way that you pro approach it.
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:21.199
The look, the attitude, you know, all of that, all of that.
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.039
It's it's a good great package.
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:24.880
And I'm so c I'm so grateful.
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.679
Uh I about to shit my pants when you replied back to me on Instagram, to be honest.
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:31.199
But I'm so glad you did.
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:32.639
Yeah, no, me too.
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:37.039
And again, this is not like it is addiction's my area of expertise.
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:50.000
This specific like category is not, and so I'm always appreciative of content and input and information from from people like you who do know what you're talking about.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.320
And so I'm like, oh, okay, that's good to know.
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:54.000
Because I all encounter it, you know.
00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:55.440
So yeah, of course.
00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:57.519
Well, you did a great job talking about it.
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.880
So thank you.
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:01.519
All right, guys, thank you for tuning in.
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:02.880
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:04.719
Um, you can I'm gonna put Dr.
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:14.000
uh Labor's information in the show notes, and also uh you can join in the conversation on Spotify and YouTube, and we will see you next week.
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:15.039
Bye.