spk_0: 0:00
way to just breathe podcast focused on transforming plus conversation and supporting you on your journey with your LGBT left one. You are not alone. Welcome to just breathe Parenting Your LGBT Q teen. My name is Heather Hester, and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising an LGBT Q. Child wherever you are on this journey. Right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. Today I have the talented and engaging Gen. Slew Mac on the show. Jen is the author of Soul Not Skin, as well as a mentor, educator, performer and producer. She is in long term recovery from alcoholism, a coping mechanism she used to survive as a queer woman in a world that told her she didn't belong. Jen is a captivating storyteller, sharing the lessons of her life in a way that not only exudes courage but inspires it as well. Without further ado, here is Jen Slew, Mac
spk_1: 1:40
Gen. Thank you so much for being with me today. I'm so excited to have you on the show and is a part of this community, and I have some some fun questions for you on. I think we're gonna have a really fun discussion. Um, I want to start with your book, which I just finished this weekend, and I absolutely loved It's called Seoul Nat Skin. And it was It's so beautifully written and really takes. At least it took me Teoh just on this journey. That is painful yet exquisite. Um, just a beautiful journey of your life. What inspired you to write it?
spk_0: 2:26
Well, Heather, first of all, thanks for having me. I'm really glad to be here, and I'm grateful to have found your podcast on the work that you're doing. And I just want to say that it's, um as as a person who grew up without the support I longed for. I appreciate what you're doing. Um, what inspired me to write? It was just that, you know, it's, uh it's the book that didn't exist when I needed this book. Um, I needed a story to tell me that I wasn't crazy. I needed a story to tell me that I wasn't bad. I needed a story to tell me that God loved may. I needed a story that sort of validated. Ah, the many parts of who I was And, um, you know, trying toe maintain that in a world that says I couldn't be those things, you know, I didn't have folks at it. I didn't have people ask questions, too. About what I was feeling. I was terrified to ask the questions that I had eso I often didn't. Um, so I wanted to I just I really needed to, uh, put the book out the universe so that it's there in case somebody else, uh, needs it cause I did desperately and it didn't exist.
spk_1: 3:34
I think there are a lot of somebody's out there who need it. And it is It is written and such a, um way that it's you feel connected to you, and you feel like, Oh, my gosh. I mean, and this isn't I'm so excited for Connor to read it because I know there so many pieces of it that he's just gonna be like, Oh, yea, somebody else went through this on and oh, this isn't bad that I feel this way. And, um, there there are solutions and I do have choices. And so thank you for writing it and thank you for really bearing your soul because it is. There's a lot of vulnerability in there and just a lot of beauty. So thank you for doing that.
spk_0: 4:26
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for that. And, you know, this was the gentle version e I cut a lot. I cut a live. Wondered. Yeah, this was this was kind of the young adults young author, um, you know, young adults version of it because, um, you know a lot. A lot of the folks in my life who show up in the book are still alive in our relationships are forever in repair. And there's been tremendous progress made in all of those directions. And so, you know, I had to be responsible. With what I which parts of the story I did tell.
spk_1: 5:08
Sure. That makes a ton of sense. Um, I completely appreciate that, because I I think about, you know, as I'm in the process of writing my book, I've been doing kind of the same thing. Uh, you think about these people you do want to be in relationship with, right? So it can be repair a tive. Right. Um
spk_0: 5:34
well, in the thing is to I think a lot of times, um, you know, the older I get, the more I realized that we all are sitting at the same table, but we experience different sides of the table as we grow up. Right. So, um, you know, a lot of the things that I used to think were awful that that parents did or friends did or teachers did or didn't do. Um, you know, I could look at them entirely different when I was the age that they were eight, right? Like, uh, I mean, a parent. When I felt like I wasn't getting my needs met, they had their own life going on. You know, I was when I was young. I didn't recognize that. But as I get older, I'm like they were being absent. They were literally busy, like they literally had things going on in their own life. And I looked fine washing TV and, you know, just so I don't I don't wanna blame. I don't wanna blame, but I do want to tell. I want to tell this story, and I want to say this is what happened. I mean it. It was a long journey for me to be able to, um, to share my truth without feeling the need without feeling guilty, right? Right. Not saying like you did this to me. But
spk_1: 6:55
you did a really beautiful job of just telling your story. And never once did I feel like you were playing the victim or saying, you know, you did this to me or you did, you know, pointing fingers in any way. In fact, I felt like almost a return. You were taking accountability. And you were You know, there are a lot of seemingly like ah ha moments and a lot of reflection and a lot of Oh, this is what that meant. Um and so it read just in this beautiful. I know I keep saying that, but it really was so lovely to read something where it was just this expression. It really waas like an expression of your soul and soul experience. So really well done on doing that. Because I know how hard that had to be and how much work that you have probably done to get to that point
spk_0: 8:07
one. Thank you for that
spk_1: 8:09
course. Oh, my goodness. Well, it's hard work. It is really hard work, and I ate. I admire that. I admired everybody. You have to read this book because it's amazing. It's really amazing. And you will understand what I'm admiring. Um, so you as you were growing up, you were really hyper aware, um, of the difference between religion and faith. Really? Well, before you fully understood your awareness of that difference, can you talk about how you were able to keep your relationship with God protected from all of the other chaos in your life?
spk_0: 8:52
You know, it's funny. I don't feel like I did. I felt like it was just a storm for decades. Um, there was there was just this this conflicting storm, you know, between, uh, what felt true in my heart And, um, what I needed to do to be in compliance with the world. You know, um, and I think that people in general can understand that, you know, we all have that, um, in some way or another, right? It's like the closet. You know, we all have a closet. Closet is shame. And, um So I I connected. I was just I was I was joyful as a child as a young girl. I was joyful and I was creative and I was excited and I was happy. And I was, um, you know, talkative. And I like to dance. And I wanted to move around, and I was all of these wonderful things. And then the world's idea started getting into me And, um, you know, just it, um I really cherished my joy, and I really wanted to keep it. And I say that in hindsight now with some clarity, but only because now that I'm you know, looking back, I think that was my biggest fight. Was holding on to my joy holding on to, um you know, I think joy and God and love those things can almost be interchangeable. Um, you know, I just felt like, you know, this this part of me that wanted to dance needed to live. And, um, I know that the world believed what it was saying. You know, I knew that my parents believed what they were saying. I knew that people that I loved and admired believed what they were saying. But I also I also knew that what my experience Waas was also happening and I didn't grow up in a family where I had a whole lot of support of saying what I felt were saying what I saw. Ah, and so it's been a long journey to get to a place where I can recognize that, um what I see and what I feel is legitimate, you know? And what I see and what I feel had their space for that, um, you know, there's this whole other set of tools called boundaries that I had to learn. Now there's just there's so many levels of growing up. Um, but I think that I always knew that God was the key. That got idea. I think I knew very young that, um the God idea was this, like, perfect love that could exist That was sort of above the heads of the imperfecta people. Ah, and in perfect people included. My parents included the adults in my life telling me these things that didn't feel true, right? And and I kind of I knew that there was a truth bigger than what they were telling me. If I could get past them, Ah, to get it and then ever find the courage to to live with it you know that that's that's the torment and and and that's that's the torment of being for me my experience of being queer person in the closet. Waas It is a tremendous conflict with with what people say is true and right and good. And when you realize in your heart as a as a gay person that the people telling you these things, I mean, they mean it and they mean, Well, they're telling you that because they love you and you recognize that you don't want them to have to go through what you're going through. And so you want to hold your secret because as soon as you release it, then they have to come out of the closet, right? I come out of the closet to you, and now you have to deal with the Oh my God, you're telling me that this Israel you're eight. This can't possibly. Now you have to look at the conflicts of everything that we've been taught, right? But you're
spk_1: 13:12
going to
spk_0: 13:12
do it without, uh, without an alignment with my truth, you're gonna do it out of love for me, right? And I need a bigger burden. I saw My mother had too many burdens already. You know, I didn't I didn't want there to be another one and tohave it beyond me. Right? That's where a lot of the depression came in for me. And that's where a lot of the sadness came in for me. Was, um I I really wanted to fix the disconnect. I wanted to fix me to align with the world outside of May so that I could spare the people I loved from having to deal with what I knew was true.
spk_1: 13:54
I'm not so much for a young person.
spk_0: 13:57
Yeah, and and little people do it all around the globe. Not just not just little gay people, you know, um, for well, we all have some experience with the otherness. Mm. We all know the experience of not belonging. You know, different experiences of it, though carry different social weight in social gravity and potential harm and danger. Right?
spk_1: 14:24
Right. You You say that with such extraordinary clarity which I know is taking New Year's T come, Teoh. There are a lot of I'm sure at the time what seemed like a horse. You know, I could do this or do that I have to be this or that instead of you know, Ann's where I I am a queer person and God loves me and my parents love me exactly. No, for exactly who I am. And the world is not condemning it, you know? And there are positive messages
spk_0: 15:09
Well, and understand to Heather that when I was a little girl, I mean, there wasn't a whole lot of damning of gay people that I was aware of her that I was experiencing. It was just in absolute silence. I just didn't see it. It didn't exist. There was nine. There was no there was no version of life that this duality was going to. Ah, surviving. There was no version of my family's world where I was going to bring home the girl. I couldn't stop thinking about no version of Ah, my father. Being in the pulpit and giving a sermon on Sunday morning was going to be celebrating. Ah, his daughter falling in love with another girl. Like I knew that. And it's not because he said it. It's because it never got spoken. There was no version of reality that matched who I knew. I Waas. And that creates the silence. And that creates the compression of, uh, of progression, right? Like right depression. That's what depression is, right? It's right there. The anger turned inward. Yeah, no anger that this, that this doesn't fit right and that I can't fix it
spk_1: 16:33
and just the absence. I think that that's such a That's really extraordinary, because I I have obviously kind of attack this more in recent times with what our kids coming out now are facing right, which is quite the opposite. There's a lot coming at them all the time, but thinking about it from where you were as a little girl, the absence, the silence that there wasn't anything that was a whole had to be a whole different kind of like, Wow, I just I can't imagine how confusing and hard Andi I mean, that's I'm in a good word for it. But chances it.
spk_0: 17:25
Yeah, it's it's a challenge, but it's what it's what crafts us. You know, I can say now, um, having survived a lot of what was very, very difficult for me to survive. But, you know, I I did. And I can say now that, um I wouldn't trade it. I mean, I don't want kids. Teoh need to go through, you know, all of it. But also, my faith says to that, um, I think I saw I had to quote a Facebook name, but ah, tobymac, I think said, um, I'm probably gonna butcher it, but something like, be grateful for the wound that draws you to God. Yeah, I don't think that it it needed to be quite a sardis there. Waas. I would have taken a little bit of a frickin break, but, uh but honestly, you know, that's where alcohol comes in. Alcohol helped me a lot. I think I would have probably taken my life if I didn't have alcohol to bridge me from a time when I didn't have the skills to deal with everything I was feeling and a time where I was able to learn those things.
spk_1: 18:32
That is a big piece of your story. And, um, you're coping and like you just said it such a clear statement. Um, it did save you right? And to a certain extent, and until you were able to gain the skills gate learned what you needed to learn, get to that next point in your life where you were ready, right? We're ready to shift. You were ready to take in the information that would help move you forward and move you out of that. So I think this is something that so many kids who are coming out young, probably just across the board, deal with substance use, substance abuse, alcoholism, whatever. You know, the substance of choices, right? Can you talk about your experience with that And really kind of what you've learned, overall.
spk_0: 19:33
Yeah, sure. Um, you know, it's interesting because, um, my experience as a gay woman and my experience as an alcoholic when woman are, you know, their own things, you know, they are their own experiences. And I think that alcohol, uh, allowed me to survive a time when I didn't have the answers to to satisfy my broken heart. You know, like, I didn't Unfortunately, when you drink the way that I drank seeking relief from, you know, heartache and you know, just the conflict between me and and the family wrote the family or the social rules or whatever. Just you know, um, when you drink the way that I drink uh, if you have an alcoholic body like I do, that's what makes me alcoholic. Is, um, the way that I think in the way that my body processes alcohol, you know, somebody could drink the way that I drink and may not have become an alcoholic. You know, they could be a heavy drinker for years, but I became alcoholic because I was already capable of becoming alcoholic. It's probably my greatest gift because, um, I feel like there's this in feel. You might have to bring me back to the alcoholism to go here on a little tangent for a second. So feel free to pull me back and will take no offense. Okay, No crime. Feel like, um, there's this general developmental thing that we human beings experience, right? We're like born is this little ball of light of possibility and everything. It's almost like this God's intention, like God needs each one of us to express got itself right creatively and in like we come out and we are this idea, ready to become ourselves. And there's this little a seed of that in us, and with the intention of growing and the family and the community and stuff is supposed to be the garden and the soil and to help us grow into that which we were intended to be, right. But when Who? We who? We've been seated as an environment we grow up in whether it's the nuclear family or the world at large. However you wanna micro or macro Qassam, that right, right when we come up against the constructs that don't support us, then we get into this battle of either you know, I'm going to thrive or I'm going to comply and and we learned to comply. And that's where we come up with the coping strategies and the whatevers and a lot of people. Heather, in my experience in my in my perception of life is many people spend their entire lives in compliance and never choose themselves. And it's because we can get by. And it's because it's been so normalized not to thrive that we aim to be successful in the world's eyes. Rather than sit quietly and ask my little creative self seed. What is it that I'm supposed to do? What is it that I am good at? What you know, And so I say that alcoholism is the greatest gift because it robbed. Ah, lifetime of bullshitting myself from me. I was no longer able to pretend like I was okay, right? I was no longer able to look at myself in the face and stand what I saw. I just couldn't no amount of mascara or eyeliner. Lipstick? No, no. Cool, done object. It's nothing that I had going on was going to cover up how I felt about May when I was drinking the way I was drinking and doing the things that resulted from it. And and so I had I literally had to choose if I wanted to shift the way that I was living or if I wanted to keep going the way that I was going. And I need to be honest with you. When I was in the when I was in my drinking, I wanted to stop, and we don't all get to many of us. Don't get me no right, we want to, but we may not be able to Yeah, and I've buried many, many people in my years of recovery in the time that I've been clean and sober, Um, people who really wanted it and who tried and who? Um we're good people. And I, um I don't think that I am any more special than they were, but I do. I hold my sobriety. Ah, like a newborn, you know, I mean, it's an 18 year old now, but when I got sober, I thought, Eso talks back. It's got a little attitude
spk_1: 24:46
has happened back. Teoh.
spk_0: 24:51
Um but yeah, just needing to protect Knitted. It's a new life. It's a rebirth. It's a new chance, you know. And not everybody gets that. And I hold it very dear.
spk_1: 25:02
I love that That is such a beautiful way to look at it. And in the fact that you're able to look at it with such in so many different ways, you know, as a as a teaching tool as a gift as part of what shaped you to be who you are to allow you to do what you do and be who you are now in the world. Right? To give you that kind of extra that extra. I need to do this because I've This is a gift, right? I also loved you. Don't glad you went off on that tangent because I think that is You are a lovely story teller, because that is a great way to think about life, right that we all have that we all have that. And and it's whether you know, all of those pieces air. True. You know, I say I In fact, I just think you're saying that I say this to my kids now because I have, you know, in the past several years, um, I had my own, you know, kind of awakening and and really realized kind of my purpose and my passion, right? And I think I don't want them to wait until they're in their forties before they go after what they love and what they believe in and what they feel passionately about what they're good at. Right. So So what If you get straight A's in science and math? Do you love science and math or do you like to draw what would light you up? What? Late to on fire? That's what you dio.
spk_0: 26:46
That's what I try to tell my gun all the time. Rant. I try to tell him that all the time. Yeah, he so he's a good he's a good dude. Yeah, yeah, he's an artist. He's a creative. He's in, you know? He's Ah, he stands out. You know, he's one of those. It's just Ah, he's not the normal kid in the in the bunch. He's got his own flair and he's got his own way of doing things. And, you know, I just encourage them. I say, man, you know, um, you just do do what you dio, you know, always move closer to that which makes you feel alive. But, you know, I think that sometimes it might take till your forties. Like what if it takes that long to figure out what doesn't work? I I don't know,
spk_1: 27:29
right? Well, right? Yeah, for me. Till we go. And I say that out of, you know, thinking that their options now, of course, the reason that I have this passion we have, You know, we know what we know and we feel passionately about. Feel passionately about is because of our life experience. Right front. So I think you're right there too. It is kind of the work, the balance. But if there's an action there, if we can, you know these are these things that we wish we want for our kids And those who whom we love is, um, you know, to Teoh did not go through some of the things that we've had to go through. Even though, you know, all of these things have have created us and have yeah, molded essence of these, right?
spk_0: 28:22
And trust us this they're going through things that they're not telling us about. You know, they're going through their own stuff, you know? You know what's happening on it. It just is. It goes and, you know, we gotta love We gotta love. I would love to see us all. Learn how to, um, care better for ourselves, Take care of us, cherish ourselves and learn how to honor other people's journey. Just honor it. Just, you know, somebody tells you what they're going through, You know, never mind the debate or the argument or whatever. Just huh? Thanks for sharing that with me. You know, like, just just trust somebody else to be on their journey, share our experience with each other. You know, um, they're they're the right and the wrong and the good and the bad and all of these things that we've constructed are just, so, so damaging, you know, even to the people who are upholding them, even to people who are playing them. And they may not even see it, you know, And you may not see it until you find yourself, you know, falling out of the Matrix basically right when you're before out of the Matrix and when you see it's like, Wow, it's all right. It's all smoke and mirrors and garbage like it's you know, all we have is each other. All we have is each other and are only job is to take care of each other and to become, you know, Teoh Thio, Thio love, you know, to do to do what God did to do You know what we've been shown and to love each other and to love God because God is the is the perfect example of no matter what you do, child, I adore you so so know that if you do some of these things, it's gonna be really hard. But I'm here if you want to talk and if you do other things, it's gonna work out a little bit better. And I'm and I'm here to talk like like turning to God and learning toe have that relationship with with whatever that is for us, for each individual to find that to be able to find that and then and then live among the mess that is humanity, you know, with a little bit of grace, because I know that we're adored by by the power that doesn't you know, it's it's everything. So it doesn't have to like, you know, one up me or criticize may like it doesn't have to do those things. It's just, you know, steady at a door in me all the time. And I learned when I learned that I have access to that when I learned that the church wasn't right and that the picket signs weren't right in that, you know, um, Matthew Shepard's killers weren't right when I when I learned that these things are fear that have spoken and that's it. Then I realized that I actually do just as I am, have access to this love that is in questionable right, and I have a right right to access it and to be in relationship with it, and I and I need to write a plant needs the sun to grow. I need I need Spirit II needs. I need that love that that God, that that God idea, right? I need that thing that is, uh, the north store in order to grow. Otherwise I get stuck in the mess.
spk_1: 31:55
Absolutely. We have a love, right? Just that that unconditional love and being able to recognize that Well, first of all, recognize that all you know, these other than our fear. And, um, I think when you let when we're able to let go of that fear and you to recognize it and then toe let go of it. Um, but also, just to embrace the messiness and be okay with it. And, um and just know that it's all part of this this lovely talking about embracing the Messina not even of the process, but just the messiness of life. And knowing that, yeah, we're alive unconditionally, no matter what. And so all of the fear, the rules, the, uh, stepping a toe out of line and you're done for. Yeah, doesn't apply. Yeah, what's really, really beautiful thing?
spk_0: 33:08
It's a long time. I mean, when when we believe what we've been taught. Then you can tell me you love me as many times as you want to. But if I can't believe you, right, This is why this is why we have to do the work on the inside. This is why we have to We have to unlearn each of us. Each of us has got to be responsible for unlearning that which does not serve our growth and that which does not serve loving each other. I mean, that's just it in simple, simple. And
spk_1: 33:43
it was like, I mean, that's perfect. That's absolutely I mean, that's exactly it. We and And I think that that's, you know, a big a big point here that, um it is work. And it is work that you have to be very aware that you're doing an intentional work, not just something that's gonna kind of happen. It is intentional. And it is, um, and being gentle with yourself and giving yourself that time too. Work through and undo because it does take time. This isn't something that happens overnight. Er in a week.
spk_0: 34:21
Yeah, it's not always sexy, right? It's sometimes it is not cute. Ok. Oh,
spk_1: 34:30
um e everything for the most part, it's not cute. But, you
spk_0: 34:34
know, uh, the women in this is anything to Heather like what? What is it that motivates people to go to that level of work right is something has got to fall apart in order for us to be willing to unlearn that which has been getting us along just fine, right? And that's that's That's the thing right? Is that when the world falls apart, this is a gift. Embrace it, feel the pain, feel the floor fallout beneath you. Look in your child's face the child that you bore, the child that you've loved, the child that you've watched grow the child that you trust, the child that you've held, the child who dances and makes your heart flutter. Look them in the face and know that they're telling you the truth. The only truth that they know how to tell you and whether it is or is not going to be the same truth in 10 years, our job is just to love and guide it. Iss, right? My father said to me, I don't know, I don't understand, he said. I don't I don't understand. And he said, You know I'm concerned about this because it's gonna make your life heart, he said. But I don't love you any less. You know my mom, my mom loved me. Anyway. My mom didn't kick me out. Many kids get kicked out,
spk_1: 36:05
right? They do, and it's not. It's not our job necessarily to understand, is it? Our job as the parent is to love
spk_0: 36:17
it becomes a problem. A lot of times when and this is what are saying before is you know, when I come out of the closet now, my parents have to deal with the thing that I've been dealing with, right? So the reason I'm acting out a reason that I'm I'm holed away in my room or the reason that I'm not okay is because I don't fit your plan for me, your ideas of me. I'm still playing the I'm still acting as if I do. But I'm wondering if this is my life. If this is the you know in, we all become actors in our world at different times, you know we play the wife when we want to be free. We play the teacher because of the retirement. When we want to go and sing in a band like these air. Not quite the same thing. But, I mean, we all can access that experience, whether it was a heavy one or, you know, a mediocre one. Like, we know that experience of not knowing if all of me is ever gonna fit here and when we don't want a hand that off toward apparent Because now our parent has to look at themselves. And I think a lot of times when the church or when, when families or whatever cast out, it's because they're trying to protect themselves from falling apart,
spk_1: 37:45
Right, right, the pain
spk_0: 37:47
well and the whole structure of the ideas, What do we have if we don't have the church? What do we have if we don't have right and wrong? What do we have? If we don't have good and bad, what do we have? If we don't have male and female, what do we have if we don't have what we understand the things that we've all agreed on, What then? Well, some of us have to answer those questions to survive, and and then we burden others with them. When we decide to survive and come out, and then it has to become a larger discussion. And that's the courageous work that you're doing And that Susan and Rob controller doing at Freed Hearts, data work. I mean, that's the courageous
spk_1: 38:34
work, right? Right. Monitoring it is important for so many reasons, but I I think the courage that it takes for, ah, you know, the courage that it took for you to come out to your parents to be your brothers, Um, two people you loved. And I think you know, when I think about Connor and the courage that it took for him to come out to us, that is so huge. That is so, you know, extraordinary that it is the least I could dio Teoh figure my own stuff out, right? I am his mom. You know, I love him unconditionally without yeah, there are not words each of my cats and, um goodness. And I think that's one of my my bigger. And do not be afraid of that. Yeah, it's scary. Cool. It's it's it's a It's a scary place, but that's doesn't mean it's bad.
spk_0: 39:44
It's messing. Yeah, it's Nancy. Just life getting
spk_1: 39:50
yeah, and sometimes that's just really fun to. I mean, there's some fun stuff that happens in all that messiness right?
spk_0: 39:59
Can be Yeah.
spk_1: 40:00
So, I mean, who knew that I'd ever go get my ear pierced with my son? Nobody. Nobody could have ever called that one of the most fun things I've ever done. I mean, you know, e, that's awesome. I wanted to ask you about your podcast, but before we go there, um, I just want to kind of back up a little bit because if you've touched on this and I think this is a really important thing that you talked about in your book and and you have talked about it a little bit today and I have talked about it a little bit past podcasts that being gay causes you to be depressed or to be anxious or to have a substance abuse problem, or should be more likely, Teoh, um, you know, these have suicidal ideation or suicidal tendencies and, you know, and as we were talking about, yes, there are statistics that support that they're all higher among queer people, right? But I think that that's exception. People look at that and they're like Oh, yeah, well, they're they're more likely to all of these things. What they're missing is the why. And that's kind of what I was working my way toward is that's where we I We want to have this conversation. This is where I want to have the conversation and other parents want to have the conversation. Do you want to have the conversation
spk_0: 41:38
well, and here's the thing, right. So when when there's a moat around the life that I want right when everything that is working in life seems to be in the castle, right? And I don't get to go for whatever reason, whether I'm gay, whether I'm a different race, whether I'm a different gender, whether I like for whatever otherness doesn't fit and I see all of the happiness at the castle, I need something to medicate the pain of not belonging. That's just human. I want to belong. That's in my code, every one of us, right? So when I don't feel like I belong, I am more likely to turn outside of myself to self medicate. It might be with food. It might be with promiscuity. It might be with, um, and that's another thing right is so just on the promiscuity thing. Ah, promiscuity and homosexuality are not synonymous. Promiscuity is a difficult promiscuity is sometimes a choice by adults. And that's their business. And I don't It's not up to me to judge that, but it's also one of the things that we can reach for. I certainly did one of the things that we can reach for when we feel so painfully disconnected from other human beings that we just want to be tangled in somebody's arms, right. We want a field, right, something. Promiscuity is not the same thing as homosexuality, and they often get perceived as people. People say, Well, homosexual behavior is in the in the clubs or in the bath houses or in the no, that's promiscuity, right there's right. That's when im that's when I'm in pain and I just and I need to use something to survive today, or that's maybe I'm not in pain. Maybe I'm just adult who wants to have multiple partners, and I get to decide that for myself. Either way, not somebody else's business does that make sense. I don't even think I made
spk_1: 44:14
my point. Well, no, it does. I mean, your your point is
spk_0: 44:20
because then the church says homosexuality is perverted and is wrong and is going to ruin the marriage. But what's ruining marriages? Promiscuity,
spk_1: 44:31
right? That homosexuality, they are not synonymous,
spk_0: 44:35
right? It's right. It's the inability to commit to another human being.
spk_1: 44:41
Right. That is what promiscuity iss, right? Is that what you're saying? Way
spk_0: 44:48
might have to end.
spk_1: 44:48
That makes the time. I'm not sure
spk_0: 44:50
if I've said what I meant to say.
spk_1: 44:55
All listen to it again. Uh, don't make sure you but I think he did. I think that you got you got there, and then it was It was good. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but we want everybody to understand I have the gift. Have been able to get facial, you know, facial cues, body language cues to from your like, uh, in that to, um, that. Anyway, so they know that does make sense. And I think that that's just a really powerful both of those both saying that, um, promiscuity and homosexuality are not synonymous and making the making that clarification off. Why? Promiscuity? A care occurs with anybody. It's now that just yeah, Yeah, and it with homosexuals. Heterosexuals do it plenty. Um, it's everywhere. And then with substance use and substance abuse, why does that? I think you were very clear on both of this point
spk_0: 45:54
again. It's Ah, um it's a way to fit in substance use Could be a way to fit in, right? If you find a group of people who are also in pain and they're using substances I want to belong So if I can't belong where I'd like to belong that I'm gonna belong where I can belong
spk_1: 46:12
And I think that it's also as I've watched Connor it's the way to numb pain, Shame, self medication, No blow. They Yeah, total self medication. And just to make all of that less intense until they're able to know until he was able to really start peeling back the layers and and working through some things Certainly understandable. Thank you for talking about that, because I know
spk_0: 46:41
that and I got I've really needed the help of other people with similar experience of going from addiction to recovery. I've needed a lot of help from other people, you know, this isn't something that I sort of like turned around on my own. You know, I was I was a mess, and I caused a lot of pain. And I put my mother through hell, And, um and it wasn't It was It was ugly for a while. And then I and then I found a group of people who, ah, you know, had a path to recovery, and I I jumped on board and, um, you know, and I'm just I'm forever grateful to those people, and they're all still in my life today, you know? But I need that community for recovery. Absolutely. I can't do it by myself. No, I just can't because, um, you know, I need to be with me. I need to belong and the world doesn't, uh, the world hasn't had to face themselves the way that I've had to face myself. And so it's difficult to have conversations with people in the world that go as, ah, as rich and as Rick is as raw as I need them to go to feel like I'm having a real conversation right on recovery. You In order to survive, you have to peel away the crap. No. You walk naked into the world every day, and it's difficult, but it's it's amazing. And so if you have other people who are doing that, too, then you do always belong somewhere,
spk_1: 48:18
right? Well, it also gives you strength to write, Um, just that support on that, knowing that you are not the only one who's going through the US on and you have people who are, you know, truly in your corner. Um, and that's huge.
spk_0: 48:40
There's there's. There's groups to support family members who love folks who are dealing with substance abuse. People can go to Alan on. That's for family and friends of people who abuse substances, you know, just to find similar support. Just, you know, somebody else who's going through their son or their daughter Not stopping, but coming home every night and like, What is that like? You can't go and talk to people at work about that. So where do you go? Family members have places to go to. There's a lot of resource is you can find some of them at my website. Under resource is, I put together a whole big thing and I think you do too. You've got to Yeah.
spk_1: 49:21
Yes, yes, I will. Definitely. Just for everybody's reference, I will be linking Jim's website and Jen's book. Um, and all these different things in the show notes So you can conceive what she's put together. A swell, Um, because I think that's really valuable. I would have toe you might have to share some. Resource is here. It's size.
spk_0: 49:42
You gotta most
spk_1: 49:46
my gash. I'm like, the biggest resource nerd. I could get off on a trail of finding, but I'm Oh, yeah, something in the meat I just actually bring him. Oh, my goodness. You're like, Oh, wow, look at that. Oh, and then two hours has gone by, and I'm like, Well, this isn't even where I started that
spk_0: 50:04
right. Why would look Yeah, totally. Why am I looking at high tops? What?
spk_1: 50:10
Right. Oh, my goodness. Yes, it's so drill. Oh, my gosh. Well, I want Teoh gonna wrap up today by talking about your podcast because, uh, just started your own podcast called Just say it.
spk_0: 50:30
I tell you what. I have been wanting to start one, and I have started one several times over the last many years. I mean, I used to do I used thio was vocal producer on a radio show in Los Angeles for a while, and I just love radio, and I wanted to do it, but it was harder to come by the jobs or jobs that at least paid. So I took the podcasting when I first learned about it, But I haven't successfully done one yet. I think I'm at a place now where I'm That's why I called it. Just say it because, uh, you know, I'm finding I'm finding the voice that I've always I'm just gonna use my voice. I'm just going to say the things that might offend that might whatever, because I always want to take care of others. I don't want to offend, and I'm tired. So I wanna have the conversations. I want to have conversations with people who are, You know, maybe, you know, folks and LGBTQ community who are pastors who are ministers who are family members. I want to talk to people who are formerly incarcerated, and I wanna I want to talk to people who are on the margins and frequently misunderstood and whose humanity gets lost behind the labels and I want to bring them to the forefront through story and through introductions. You know, I've got I've got a lot of friends. Ah, that are amazing. Amazing, Amazing. People who have just come from the ashes and and risen again are doing incredible work in the world. And I just want I just want to interview him like you're interviewing me, and I just want to bring them. Just talk about that's what I love I just loved hard with. Yeah,
spk_1: 52:10
well, you're get at it. You're very good at it. You're really to talk Teoh off my list. Just upside. Just last night were just this love fast here, Uh, so much fun. And I will put that on my list, and everybody out there has to listen, Teoh and, um, I can't wait to hear who you bring on, and
spk_0: 52:37
yeah, I probably got ahead of myself posting it already because I have got to produce quite a few this weekend to catch up with myself, cause yeah, that'll be good. That'll be good.
spk_1: 52:47
It's good. You've got it globally. It's just just hunker down. That's what I always you know, I record a couple of when I the recording parts super fun and then the editing part is, you know, you just kind of, like, shut yourself in a room for a couple of hours and go right
spk_0: 53:04
now. Well, I want O Connor sometime. You gotta You gotta have him reach out to me after he reads the book. I will. I love the doubt with them. How old is he?
spk_1: 53:17
He's 19. Um, will be 20 and July. So, um, he's very excited about officially not being a teenager anymore.
spk_0: 53:27
Right on. Well, hey, listen, um, let him know that he's welcome any time to reach out to me.
spk_1: 53:34
I will. Thank you. The really mind. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, he is. Ah, just He is a cool kid. Um, if you ever have a cheeky he did a show with me a few months ago. I listened. Did you listen to check that out? Yeah. All right. I mean, it's it's one of my faves, cause that one was particularly fun toe to edit because you're fat. Their report. I was like, Okay, you can't swear on this, because otherwise I have to raid it differently on out.
spk_0: 54:11
Yeah, I swore I dropped something while we were talking. They're gonna have to pull that out. I thought like you said it.
spk_1: 54:18
I think that will be OK. I was just really were, you know, he's a 19 year old boy, so I knew what could possibly fly out of his mouth. And so I was giggling as I was added eggs on. So I go, There it is. And there's a rant, and there's it was just loved. It was That's great. Oh, yes, I will definitely let him know. And, um, you know, he he loves this. They're all super cute about, You know, my podcast had told them they all had to be very quiet over doing this today. So thistles sheltering in place and having everybody at home makes it a little more mature Eso anyway. Oh, my goodness. Well, is there anything else that you'd like to share that I can just put out in the world for you?
spk_0: 55:09
No, I think you're doing great. I appreciate you having me on. I appreciate the work you're doing. Thanks for plugging my book. Um, I'm gonna be doing a, um, a series of virtual online talking circles with Susan control from freed hearts dot org's we're gonna be holding space online, uh, for the LGBTQ folks, Um, something that I used to do in the jails and prisons. When I worked, I worked in the jails in prisons and we used to hold, um, healing circles with the men and women who are incarcerated. And it won't be quite, you know, it's ah, it'll be a simpler version of that which I did inside. But they're powerful and they just create a wonderful space. I've never done one virtually. So it's gonna you know, the shelter in place is forcing us to take what we were going to do in retreat weekends for her beloved we need, and we're gonna be doing it online. So it's we'll see what happens. But we've got people signed up, and we're looking forward to it. So cross your fingers and hope that that goes well And, uh, more of them, uh, and eventually live. So it's exciting. It's exciting that we're at a time when we can talk about it and we can create space for people that have their experience. And I'm just glad that I, uh, you know, um am well and and is grateful you know, and that I can hopefully be somebody for people like Connor or people like me when I was younger, to look too and be like, Wow, maybe I can grow up and be happy and be healthy. Maybe I can be and love God, Maybe I can be gay and be married. Maybe I can be all of the things that I was that I was, you know, gifted to be. Maybe I can. That's what I want to be is just that hope. You know,
spk_1: 57:02
I love that well, you are the hope dealer, right? You know, I love laugh. I love that. That's and it's perfect. And e I couldn't have said that better. So you you do embody all of those things, and you are such a great it mentor. And, um, person, you're so easy to connect with that. But all of these everyone who meets you and just doing what you do is is perfect. And I'm so I'm so excited for you. And I definitely will put some information out there about the virtual Um, what you're doing with Susan and the beloved weekends coming up, I have to check off to check the virtual ones out as well. That would be so much fun. So thank you. Thank you.
spk_0: 57:58
Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
spk_1: 58:01
You are welcome.
spk_0: 58:04
Thanks so much for joining Jen and me today. Remember to just breathe taking a few minutes each day to focus on your breath and calm and center yourself. It will give you strength and clarity especially right now. Check out the show notes on my website for the links I mentioned for Jen's book, website podcast and soul circles with Susan Cottrill. And please help me continue to reach more people who need support and love by subscribing to and reviewing. Just breathe and share this with anyone who needs to know they are not alone until next time.
way to just breathe podcast focused on transforming plus conversation and supporting you on your journey with your LGBT left one. You are not alone. Welcome to just breathe Parenting Your LGBT Q teen. My name is Heather Hester, and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising an LGBT Q. Child wherever you are on this journey. Right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. Today I have the talented and engaging Gen. Slew Mac on the show. Jen is the author of Soul Not Skin, as well as a mentor, educator, performer and producer. She is in long term recovery from alcoholism, a coping mechanism she used to survive as a queer woman in a world that told her she didn't belong. Jen is a captivating storyteller, sharing the lessons of her life in a way that not only exudes courage but inspires it as well. Without further ado, here is Jen Slew, Mac
spk_1: 1:40
Gen. Thank you so much for being with me today. I'm so excited to have you on the show and is a part of this community, and I have some some fun questions for you on. I think we're gonna have a really fun discussion. Um, I want to start with your book, which I just finished this weekend, and I absolutely loved It's called Seoul Nat Skin. And it was It's so beautifully written and really takes. At least it took me Teoh just on this journey. That is painful yet exquisite. Um, just a beautiful journey of your life. What inspired you to write it?
spk_0: 2:26
Well, Heather, first of all, thanks for having me. I'm really glad to be here, and I'm grateful to have found your podcast on the work that you're doing. And I just want to say that it's, um as as a person who grew up without the support I longed for. I appreciate what you're doing. Um, what inspired me to write? It was just that, you know, it's, uh it's the book that didn't exist when I needed this book. Um, I needed a story to tell me that I wasn't crazy. I needed a story to tell me that I wasn't bad. I needed a story to tell me that God loved may. I needed a story that sort of validated. Ah, the many parts of who I was And, um, you know, trying toe maintain that in a world that says I couldn't be those things, you know, I didn't have folks at it. I didn't have people ask questions, too. About what I was feeling. I was terrified to ask the questions that I had eso I often didn't. Um, so I wanted to I just I really needed to, uh, put the book out the universe so that it's there in case somebody else, uh, needs it cause I did desperately and it didn't exist.
spk_1: 3:34
I think there are a lot of somebody's out there who need it. And it is It is written and such a, um way that it's you feel connected to you, and you feel like, Oh, my gosh. I mean, and this isn't I'm so excited for Connor to read it because I know there so many pieces of it that he's just gonna be like, Oh, yea, somebody else went through this on and oh, this isn't bad that I feel this way. And, um, there there are solutions and I do have choices. And so thank you for writing it and thank you for really bearing your soul because it is. There's a lot of vulnerability in there and just a lot of beauty. So thank you for doing that.
spk_0: 4:26
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for that. And, you know, this was the gentle version e I cut a lot. I cut a live. Wondered. Yeah, this was this was kind of the young adults young author, um, you know, young adults version of it because, um, you know a lot. A lot of the folks in my life who show up in the book are still alive in our relationships are forever in repair. And there's been tremendous progress made in all of those directions. And so, you know, I had to be responsible. With what I which parts of the story I did tell.
spk_1: 5:08
Sure. That makes a ton of sense. Um, I completely appreciate that, because I I think about, you know, as I'm in the process of writing my book, I've been doing kind of the same thing. Uh, you think about these people you do want to be in relationship with, right? So it can be repair a tive. Right. Um
spk_0: 5:34
well, in the thing is to I think a lot of times, um, you know, the older I get, the more I realized that we all are sitting at the same table, but we experience different sides of the table as we grow up. Right. So, um, you know, a lot of the things that I used to think were awful that that parents did or friends did or teachers did or didn't do. Um, you know, I could look at them entirely different when I was the age that they were eight, right? Like, uh, I mean, a parent. When I felt like I wasn't getting my needs met, they had their own life going on. You know, I was when I was young. I didn't recognize that. But as I get older, I'm like they were being absent. They were literally busy, like they literally had things going on in their own life. And I looked fine washing TV and, you know, just so I don't I don't wanna blame. I don't wanna blame, but I do want to tell. I want to tell this story, and I want to say this is what happened. I mean it. It was a long journey for me to be able to, um, to share my truth without feeling the need without feeling guilty, right? Right. Not saying like you did this to me. But
spk_1: 6:55
you did a really beautiful job of just telling your story. And never once did I feel like you were playing the victim or saying, you know, you did this to me or you did, you know, pointing fingers in any way. In fact, I felt like almost a return. You were taking accountability. And you were You know, there are a lot of seemingly like ah ha moments and a lot of reflection and a lot of Oh, this is what that meant. Um and so it read just in this beautiful. I know I keep saying that, but it really was so lovely to read something where it was just this expression. It really waas like an expression of your soul and soul experience. So really well done on doing that. Because I know how hard that had to be and how much work that you have probably done to get to that point
spk_0: 8:07
one. Thank you for that
spk_1: 8:09
course. Oh, my goodness. Well, it's hard work. It is really hard work, and I ate. I admire that. I admired everybody. You have to read this book because it's amazing. It's really amazing. And you will understand what I'm admiring. Um, so you as you were growing up, you were really hyper aware, um, of the difference between religion and faith. Really? Well, before you fully understood your awareness of that difference, can you talk about how you were able to keep your relationship with God protected from all of the other chaos in your life?
spk_0: 8:52
You know, it's funny. I don't feel like I did. I felt like it was just a storm for decades. Um, there was there was just this this conflicting storm, you know, between, uh, what felt true in my heart And, um, what I needed to do to be in compliance with the world. You know, um, and I think that people in general can understand that, you know, we all have that, um, in some way or another, right? It's like the closet. You know, we all have a closet. Closet is shame. And, um So I I connected. I was just I was I was joyful as a child as a young girl. I was joyful and I was creative and I was excited and I was happy. And I was, um, you know, talkative. And I like to dance. And I wanted to move around, and I was all of these wonderful things. And then the world's idea started getting into me And, um, you know, just it, um I really cherished my joy, and I really wanted to keep it. And I say that in hindsight now with some clarity, but only because now that I'm you know, looking back, I think that was my biggest fight. Was holding on to my joy holding on to, um you know, I think joy and God and love those things can almost be interchangeable. Um, you know, I just felt like, you know, this this part of me that wanted to dance needed to live. And, um, I know that the world believed what it was saying. You know, I knew that my parents believed what they were saying. I knew that people that I loved and admired believed what they were saying. But I also I also knew that what my experience Waas was also happening and I didn't grow up in a family where I had a whole lot of support of saying what I felt were saying what I saw. Ah, and so it's been a long journey to get to a place where I can recognize that, um what I see and what I feel is legitimate, you know? And what I see and what I feel had their space for that, um, you know, there's this whole other set of tools called boundaries that I had to learn. Now there's just there's so many levels of growing up. Um, but I think that I always knew that God was the key. That got idea. I think I knew very young that, um the God idea was this, like, perfect love that could exist That was sort of above the heads of the imperfecta people. Ah, and in perfect people included. My parents included the adults in my life telling me these things that didn't feel true, right? And and I kind of I knew that there was a truth bigger than what they were telling me. If I could get past them, Ah, to get it and then ever find the courage to to live with it you know that that's that's the torment and and and that's that's the torment of being for me my experience of being queer person in the closet. Waas It is a tremendous conflict with with what people say is true and right and good. And when you realize in your heart as a as a gay person that the people telling you these things, I mean, they mean it and they mean, Well, they're telling you that because they love you and you recognize that you don't want them to have to go through what you're going through. And so you want to hold your secret because as soon as you release it, then they have to come out of the closet, right? I come out of the closet to you, and now you have to deal with the Oh my God, you're telling me that this Israel you're eight. This can't possibly. Now you have to look at the conflicts of everything that we've been taught, right? But you're
spk_1: 13:12
going to
spk_0: 13:12
do it without, uh, without an alignment with my truth, you're gonna do it out of love for me, right? And I need a bigger burden. I saw My mother had too many burdens already. You know, I didn't I didn't want there to be another one and tohave it beyond me. Right? That's where a lot of the depression came in for me. And that's where a lot of the sadness came in for me. Was, um I I really wanted to fix the disconnect. I wanted to fix me to align with the world outside of May so that I could spare the people I loved from having to deal with what I knew was true.
spk_1: 13:54
I'm not so much for a young person.
spk_0: 13:57
Yeah, and and little people do it all around the globe. Not just not just little gay people, you know, um, for well, we all have some experience with the otherness. Mm. We all know the experience of not belonging. You know, different experiences of it, though carry different social weight in social gravity and potential harm and danger. Right?
spk_1: 14:24
Right. You You say that with such extraordinary clarity which I know is taking New Year's T come, Teoh. There are a lot of I'm sure at the time what seemed like a horse. You know, I could do this or do that I have to be this or that instead of you know, Ann's where I I am a queer person and God loves me and my parents love me exactly. No, for exactly who I am. And the world is not condemning it, you know? And there are positive messages
spk_0: 15:09
Well, and understand to Heather that when I was a little girl, I mean, there wasn't a whole lot of damning of gay people that I was aware of her that I was experiencing. It was just in absolute silence. I just didn't see it. It didn't exist. There was nine. There was no there was no version of life that this duality was going to. Ah, surviving. There was no version of my family's world where I was going to bring home the girl. I couldn't stop thinking about no version of Ah, my father. Being in the pulpit and giving a sermon on Sunday morning was going to be celebrating. Ah, his daughter falling in love with another girl. Like I knew that. And it's not because he said it. It's because it never got spoken. There was no version of reality that matched who I knew. I Waas. And that creates the silence. And that creates the compression of, uh, of progression, right? Like right depression. That's what depression is, right? It's right there. The anger turned inward. Yeah, no anger that this, that this doesn't fit right and that I can't fix it
spk_1: 16:33
and just the absence. I think that that's such a That's really extraordinary, because I I have obviously kind of attack this more in recent times with what our kids coming out now are facing right, which is quite the opposite. There's a lot coming at them all the time, but thinking about it from where you were as a little girl, the absence, the silence that there wasn't anything that was a whole had to be a whole different kind of like, Wow, I just I can't imagine how confusing and hard Andi I mean, that's I'm in a good word for it. But chances it.
spk_0: 17:25
Yeah, it's it's a challenge, but it's what it's what crafts us. You know, I can say now, um, having survived a lot of what was very, very difficult for me to survive. But, you know, I I did. And I can say now that, um I wouldn't trade it. I mean, I don't want kids. Teoh need to go through, you know, all of it. But also, my faith says to that, um, I think I saw I had to quote a Facebook name, but ah, tobymac, I think said, um, I'm probably gonna butcher it, but something like, be grateful for the wound that draws you to God. Yeah, I don't think that it it needed to be quite a sardis there. Waas. I would have taken a little bit of a frickin break, but, uh but honestly, you know, that's where alcohol comes in. Alcohol helped me a lot. I think I would have probably taken my life if I didn't have alcohol to bridge me from a time when I didn't have the skills to deal with everything I was feeling and a time where I was able to learn those things.
spk_1: 18:32
That is a big piece of your story. And, um, you're coping and like you just said it such a clear statement. Um, it did save you right? And to a certain extent, and until you were able to gain the skills gate learned what you needed to learn, get to that next point in your life where you were ready, right? We're ready to shift. You were ready to take in the information that would help move you forward and move you out of that. So I think this is something that so many kids who are coming out young, probably just across the board, deal with substance use, substance abuse, alcoholism, whatever. You know, the substance of choices, right? Can you talk about your experience with that And really kind of what you've learned, overall.
spk_0: 19:33
Yeah, sure. Um, you know, it's interesting because, um, my experience as a gay woman and my experience as an alcoholic when woman are, you know, their own things, you know, they are their own experiences. And I think that alcohol, uh, allowed me to survive a time when I didn't have the answers to to satisfy my broken heart. You know, like, I didn't Unfortunately, when you drink the way that I drank seeking relief from, you know, heartache and you know, just the conflict between me and and the family wrote the family or the social rules or whatever. Just you know, um, when you drink the way that I drink uh, if you have an alcoholic body like I do, that's what makes me alcoholic. Is, um, the way that I think in the way that my body processes alcohol, you know, somebody could drink the way that I drink and may not have become an alcoholic. You know, they could be a heavy drinker for years, but I became alcoholic because I was already capable of becoming alcoholic. It's probably my greatest gift because, um, I feel like there's this in feel. You might have to bring me back to the alcoholism to go here on a little tangent for a second. So feel free to pull me back and will take no offense. Okay, No crime. Feel like, um, there's this general developmental thing that we human beings experience, right? We're like born is this little ball of light of possibility and everything. It's almost like this God's intention, like God needs each one of us to express got itself right creatively and in like we come out and we are this idea, ready to become ourselves. And there's this little a seed of that in us, and with the intention of growing and the family and the community and stuff is supposed to be the garden and the soil and to help us grow into that which we were intended to be, right. But when Who? We who? We've been seated as an environment we grow up in whether it's the nuclear family or the world at large. However you wanna micro or macro Qassam, that right, right when we come up against the constructs that don't support us, then we get into this battle of either you know, I'm going to thrive or I'm going to comply and and we learned to comply. And that's where we come up with the coping strategies and the whatevers and a lot of people. Heather, in my experience in my in my perception of life is many people spend their entire lives in compliance and never choose themselves. And it's because we can get by. And it's because it's been so normalized not to thrive that we aim to be successful in the world's eyes. Rather than sit quietly and ask my little creative self seed. What is it that I'm supposed to do? What is it that I am good at? What you know, And so I say that alcoholism is the greatest gift because it robbed. Ah, lifetime of bullshitting myself from me. I was no longer able to pretend like I was okay, right? I was no longer able to look at myself in the face and stand what I saw. I just couldn't no amount of mascara or eyeliner. Lipstick? No, no. Cool, done object. It's nothing that I had going on was going to cover up how I felt about May when I was drinking the way I was drinking and doing the things that resulted from it. And and so I had I literally had to choose if I wanted to shift the way that I was living or if I wanted to keep going the way that I was going. And I need to be honest with you. When I was in the when I was in my drinking, I wanted to stop, and we don't all get to many of us. Don't get me no right, we want to, but we may not be able to Yeah, and I've buried many, many people in my years of recovery in the time that I've been clean and sober, Um, people who really wanted it and who tried and who? Um we're good people. And I, um I don't think that I am any more special than they were, but I do. I hold my sobriety. Ah, like a newborn, you know, I mean, it's an 18 year old now, but when I got sober, I thought, Eso talks back. It's got a little attitude
spk_1: 24:46
has happened back. Teoh.
spk_0: 24:51
Um but yeah, just needing to protect Knitted. It's a new life. It's a rebirth. It's a new chance, you know. And not everybody gets that. And I hold it very dear.
spk_1: 25:02
I love that That is such a beautiful way to look at it. And in the fact that you're able to look at it with such in so many different ways, you know, as a as a teaching tool as a gift as part of what shaped you to be who you are to allow you to do what you do and be who you are now in the world. Right? To give you that kind of extra that extra. I need to do this because I've This is a gift, right? I also loved you. Don't glad you went off on that tangent because I think that is You are a lovely story teller, because that is a great way to think about life, right that we all have that we all have that. And and it's whether you know, all of those pieces air. True. You know, I say I In fact, I just think you're saying that I say this to my kids now because I have, you know, in the past several years, um, I had my own, you know, kind of awakening and and really realized kind of my purpose and my passion, right? And I think I don't want them to wait until they're in their forties before they go after what they love and what they believe in and what they feel passionately about what they're good at. Right. So So what If you get straight A's in science and math? Do you love science and math or do you like to draw what would light you up? What? Late to on fire? That's what you dio.
spk_0: 26:46
That's what I try to tell my gun all the time. Rant. I try to tell him that all the time. Yeah, he so he's a good he's a good dude. Yeah, yeah, he's an artist. He's a creative. He's in, you know? He's Ah, he stands out. You know, he's one of those. It's just Ah, he's not the normal kid in the in the bunch. He's got his own flair and he's got his own way of doing things. And, you know, I just encourage them. I say, man, you know, um, you just do do what you dio, you know, always move closer to that which makes you feel alive. But, you know, I think that sometimes it might take till your forties. Like what if it takes that long to figure out what doesn't work? I I don't know,
spk_1: 27:29
right? Well, right? Yeah, for me. Till we go. And I say that out of, you know, thinking that their options now, of course, the reason that I have this passion we have, You know, we know what we know and we feel passionately about. Feel passionately about is because of our life experience. Right front. So I think you're right there too. It is kind of the work, the balance. But if there's an action there, if we can, you know these are these things that we wish we want for our kids And those who whom we love is, um, you know, to Teoh did not go through some of the things that we've had to go through. Even though, you know, all of these things have have created us and have yeah, molded essence of these, right?
spk_0: 28:22
And trust us this they're going through things that they're not telling us about. You know, they're going through their own stuff, you know? You know what's happening on it. It just is. It goes and, you know, we gotta love We gotta love. I would love to see us all. Learn how to, um, care better for ourselves, Take care of us, cherish ourselves and learn how to honor other people's journey. Just honor it. Just, you know, somebody tells you what they're going through, You know, never mind the debate or the argument or whatever. Just huh? Thanks for sharing that with me. You know, like, just just trust somebody else to be on their journey, share our experience with each other. You know, um, they're they're the right and the wrong and the good and the bad and all of these things that we've constructed are just, so, so damaging, you know, even to the people who are upholding them, even to people who are playing them. And they may not even see it, you know, And you may not see it until you find yourself, you know, falling out of the Matrix basically right when you're before out of the Matrix and when you see it's like, Wow, it's all right. It's all smoke and mirrors and garbage like it's you know, all we have is each other. All we have is each other and are only job is to take care of each other and to become, you know, Teoh Thio, Thio love, you know, to do to do what God did to do You know what we've been shown and to love each other and to love God because God is the is the perfect example of no matter what you do, child, I adore you so so know that if you do some of these things, it's gonna be really hard. But I'm here if you want to talk and if you do other things, it's gonna work out a little bit better. And I'm and I'm here to talk like like turning to God and learning toe have that relationship with with whatever that is for us, for each individual to find that to be able to find that and then and then live among the mess that is humanity, you know, with a little bit of grace, because I know that we're adored by by the power that doesn't you know, it's it's everything. So it doesn't have to like, you know, one up me or criticize may like it doesn't have to do those things. It's just, you know, steady at a door in me all the time. And I learned when I learned that I have access to that when I learned that the church wasn't right and that the picket signs weren't right in that, you know, um, Matthew Shepard's killers weren't right when I when I learned that these things are fear that have spoken and that's it. Then I realized that I actually do just as I am, have access to this love that is in questionable right, and I have a right right to access it and to be in relationship with it, and I and I need to write a plant needs the sun to grow. I need I need Spirit II needs. I need that love that that God, that that God idea, right? I need that thing that is, uh, the north store in order to grow. Otherwise I get stuck in the mess.
spk_1: 31:55
Absolutely. We have a love, right? Just that that unconditional love and being able to recognize that Well, first of all, recognize that all you know, these other than our fear. And, um, I think when you let when we're able to let go of that fear and you to recognize it and then toe let go of it. Um, but also, just to embrace the messiness and be okay with it. And, um and just know that it's all part of this this lovely talking about embracing the Messina not even of the process, but just the messiness of life. And knowing that, yeah, we're alive unconditionally, no matter what. And so all of the fear, the rules, the, uh, stepping a toe out of line and you're done for. Yeah, doesn't apply. Yeah, what's really, really beautiful thing?
spk_0: 33:08
It's a long time. I mean, when when we believe what we've been taught. Then you can tell me you love me as many times as you want to. But if I can't believe you, right, This is why this is why we have to do the work on the inside. This is why we have to We have to unlearn each of us. Each of us has got to be responsible for unlearning that which does not serve our growth and that which does not serve loving each other. I mean, that's just it in simple, simple. And
spk_1: 33:43
it was like, I mean, that's perfect. That's absolutely I mean, that's exactly it. We and And I think that that's, you know, a big a big point here that, um it is work. And it is work that you have to be very aware that you're doing an intentional work, not just something that's gonna kind of happen. It is intentional. And it is, um, and being gentle with yourself and giving yourself that time too. Work through and undo because it does take time. This isn't something that happens overnight. Er in a week.
spk_0: 34:21
Yeah, it's not always sexy, right? It's sometimes it is not cute. Ok. Oh,
spk_1: 34:30
um e everything for the most part, it's not cute. But, you
spk_0: 34:34
know, uh, the women in this is anything to Heather like what? What is it that motivates people to go to that level of work right is something has got to fall apart in order for us to be willing to unlearn that which has been getting us along just fine, right? And that's that's That's the thing right? Is that when the world falls apart, this is a gift. Embrace it, feel the pain, feel the floor fallout beneath you. Look in your child's face the child that you bore, the child that you've loved, the child that you've watched grow the child that you trust, the child that you've held, the child who dances and makes your heart flutter. Look them in the face and know that they're telling you the truth. The only truth that they know how to tell you and whether it is or is not going to be the same truth in 10 years, our job is just to love and guide it. Iss, right? My father said to me, I don't know, I don't understand, he said. I don't I don't understand. And he said, You know I'm concerned about this because it's gonna make your life heart, he said. But I don't love you any less. You know my mom, my mom loved me. Anyway. My mom didn't kick me out. Many kids get kicked out,
spk_1: 36:05
right? They do, and it's not. It's not our job necessarily to understand, is it? Our job as the parent is to love
spk_0: 36:17
it becomes a problem. A lot of times when and this is what are saying before is you know, when I come out of the closet now, my parents have to deal with the thing that I've been dealing with, right? So the reason I'm acting out a reason that I'm I'm holed away in my room or the reason that I'm not okay is because I don't fit your plan for me, your ideas of me. I'm still playing the I'm still acting as if I do. But I'm wondering if this is my life. If this is the you know in, we all become actors in our world at different times, you know we play the wife when we want to be free. We play the teacher because of the retirement. When we want to go and sing in a band like these air. Not quite the same thing. But, I mean, we all can access that experience, whether it was a heavy one or, you know, a mediocre one. Like, we know that experience of not knowing if all of me is ever gonna fit here and when we don't want a hand that off toward apparent Because now our parent has to look at themselves. And I think a lot of times when the church or when, when families or whatever cast out, it's because they're trying to protect themselves from falling apart,
spk_1: 37:45
Right, right, the pain
spk_0: 37:47
well and the whole structure of the ideas, What do we have if we don't have the church? What do we have if we don't have right and wrong? What do we have? If we don't have good and bad, what do we have? If we don't have male and female, what do we have if we don't have what we understand the things that we've all agreed on, What then? Well, some of us have to answer those questions to survive, and and then we burden others with them. When we decide to survive and come out, and then it has to become a larger discussion. And that's the courageous work that you're doing And that Susan and Rob controller doing at Freed Hearts, data work. I mean, that's the courageous
spk_1: 38:34
work, right? Right. Monitoring it is important for so many reasons, but I I think the courage that it takes for, ah, you know, the courage that it took for you to come out to your parents to be your brothers, Um, two people you loved. And I think you know, when I think about Connor and the courage that it took for him to come out to us, that is so huge. That is so, you know, extraordinary that it is the least I could dio Teoh figure my own stuff out, right? I am his mom. You know, I love him unconditionally without yeah, there are not words each of my cats and, um goodness. And I think that's one of my my bigger. And do not be afraid of that. Yeah, it's scary. Cool. It's it's it's a It's a scary place, but that's doesn't mean it's bad.
spk_0: 39:44
It's messing. Yeah, it's Nancy. Just life getting
spk_1: 39:50
yeah, and sometimes that's just really fun to. I mean, there's some fun stuff that happens in all that messiness right?
spk_0: 39:59
Can be Yeah.
spk_1: 40:00
So, I mean, who knew that I'd ever go get my ear pierced with my son? Nobody. Nobody could have ever called that one of the most fun things I've ever done. I mean, you know, e, that's awesome. I wanted to ask you about your podcast, but before we go there, um, I just want to kind of back up a little bit because if you've touched on this and I think this is a really important thing that you talked about in your book and and you have talked about it a little bit today and I have talked about it a little bit past podcasts that being gay causes you to be depressed or to be anxious or to have a substance abuse problem, or should be more likely, Teoh, um, you know, these have suicidal ideation or suicidal tendencies and, you know, and as we were talking about, yes, there are statistics that support that they're all higher among queer people, right? But I think that that's exception. People look at that and they're like Oh, yeah, well, they're they're more likely to all of these things. What they're missing is the why. And that's kind of what I was working my way toward is that's where we I We want to have this conversation. This is where I want to have the conversation and other parents want to have the conversation. Do you want to have the conversation
spk_0: 41:38
well, and here's the thing, right. So when when there's a moat around the life that I want right when everything that is working in life seems to be in the castle, right? And I don't get to go for whatever reason, whether I'm gay, whether I'm a different race, whether I'm a different gender, whether I like for whatever otherness doesn't fit and I see all of the happiness at the castle, I need something to medicate the pain of not belonging. That's just human. I want to belong. That's in my code, every one of us, right? So when I don't feel like I belong, I am more likely to turn outside of myself to self medicate. It might be with food. It might be with promiscuity. It might be with, um, and that's another thing right is so just on the promiscuity thing. Ah, promiscuity and homosexuality are not synonymous. Promiscuity is a difficult promiscuity is sometimes a choice by adults. And that's their business. And I don't It's not up to me to judge that, but it's also one of the things that we can reach for. I certainly did one of the things that we can reach for when we feel so painfully disconnected from other human beings that we just want to be tangled in somebody's arms, right. We want a field, right, something. Promiscuity is not the same thing as homosexuality, and they often get perceived as people. People say, Well, homosexual behavior is in the in the clubs or in the bath houses or in the no, that's promiscuity, right there's right. That's when im that's when I'm in pain and I just and I need to use something to survive today, or that's maybe I'm not in pain. Maybe I'm just adult who wants to have multiple partners, and I get to decide that for myself. Either way, not somebody else's business does that make sense. I don't even think I made
spk_1: 44:14
my point. Well, no, it does. I mean, your your point is
spk_0: 44:20
because then the church says homosexuality is perverted and is wrong and is going to ruin the marriage. But what's ruining marriages? Promiscuity,
spk_1: 44:31
right? That homosexuality, they are not synonymous,
spk_0: 44:35
right? It's right. It's the inability to commit to another human being.
spk_1: 44:41
Right. That is what promiscuity iss, right? Is that what you're saying? Way
spk_0: 44:48
might have to end.
spk_1: 44:48
That makes the time. I'm not sure
spk_0: 44:50
if I've said what I meant to say.
spk_1: 44:55
All listen to it again. Uh, don't make sure you but I think he did. I think that you got you got there, and then it was It was good. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but we want everybody to understand I have the gift. Have been able to get facial, you know, facial cues, body language cues to from your like, uh, in that to, um, that. Anyway, so they know that does make sense. And I think that that's just a really powerful both of those both saying that, um, promiscuity and homosexuality are not synonymous and making the making that clarification off. Why? Promiscuity? A care occurs with anybody. It's now that just yeah, Yeah, and it with homosexuals. Heterosexuals do it plenty. Um, it's everywhere. And then with substance use and substance abuse, why does that? I think you were very clear on both of this point
spk_0: 45:54
again. It's Ah, um it's a way to fit in substance use Could be a way to fit in, right? If you find a group of people who are also in pain and they're using substances I want to belong So if I can't belong where I'd like to belong that I'm gonna belong where I can belong
spk_1: 46:12
And I think that it's also as I've watched Connor it's the way to numb pain, Shame, self medication, No blow. They Yeah, total self medication. And just to make all of that less intense until they're able to know until he was able to really start peeling back the layers and and working through some things Certainly understandable. Thank you for talking about that, because I know
spk_0: 46:41
that and I got I've really needed the help of other people with similar experience of going from addiction to recovery. I've needed a lot of help from other people, you know, this isn't something that I sort of like turned around on my own. You know, I was I was a mess, and I caused a lot of pain. And I put my mother through hell, And, um and it wasn't It was It was ugly for a while. And then I and then I found a group of people who, ah, you know, had a path to recovery, and I I jumped on board and, um, you know, and I'm just I'm forever grateful to those people, and they're all still in my life today, you know? But I need that community for recovery. Absolutely. I can't do it by myself. No, I just can't because, um, you know, I need to be with me. I need to belong and the world doesn't, uh, the world hasn't had to face themselves the way that I've had to face myself. And so it's difficult to have conversations with people in the world that go as, ah, as rich and as Rick is as raw as I need them to go to feel like I'm having a real conversation right on recovery. You In order to survive, you have to peel away the crap. No. You walk naked into the world every day, and it's difficult, but it's it's amazing. And so if you have other people who are doing that, too, then you do always belong somewhere,
spk_1: 48:18
right? Well, it also gives you strength to write, Um, just that support on that, knowing that you are not the only one who's going through the US on and you have people who are, you know, truly in your corner. Um, and that's huge.
spk_0: 48:40
There's there's. There's groups to support family members who love folks who are dealing with substance abuse. People can go to Alan on. That's for family and friends of people who abuse substances, you know, just to find similar support. Just, you know, somebody else who's going through their son or their daughter Not stopping, but coming home every night and like, What is that like? You can't go and talk to people at work about that. So where do you go? Family members have places to go to. There's a lot of resource is you can find some of them at my website. Under resource is, I put together a whole big thing and I think you do too. You've got to Yeah.
spk_1: 49:21
Yes, yes, I will. Definitely. Just for everybody's reference, I will be linking Jim's website and Jen's book. Um, and all these different things in the show notes So you can conceive what she's put together. A swell, Um, because I think that's really valuable. I would have toe you might have to share some. Resource is here. It's size.
spk_0: 49:42
You gotta most
spk_1: 49:46
my gash. I'm like, the biggest resource nerd. I could get off on a trail of finding, but I'm Oh, yeah, something in the meat I just actually bring him. Oh, my goodness. You're like, Oh, wow, look at that. Oh, and then two hours has gone by, and I'm like, Well, this isn't even where I started that
spk_0: 50:04
right. Why would look Yeah, totally. Why am I looking at high tops? What?
spk_1: 50:10
Right. Oh, my goodness. Yes, it's so drill. Oh, my gosh. Well, I want Teoh gonna wrap up today by talking about your podcast because, uh, just started your own podcast called Just say it.
spk_0: 50:30
I tell you what. I have been wanting to start one, and I have started one several times over the last many years. I mean, I used to do I used thio was vocal producer on a radio show in Los Angeles for a while, and I just love radio, and I wanted to do it, but it was harder to come by the jobs or jobs that at least paid. So I took the podcasting when I first learned about it, But I haven't successfully done one yet. I think I'm at a place now where I'm That's why I called it. Just say it because, uh, you know, I'm finding I'm finding the voice that I've always I'm just gonna use my voice. I'm just going to say the things that might offend that might whatever, because I always want to take care of others. I don't want to offend, and I'm tired. So I wanna have the conversations. I want to have conversations with people who are, You know, maybe, you know, folks and LGBTQ community who are pastors who are ministers who are family members. I want to talk to people who are formerly incarcerated, and I wanna I want to talk to people who are on the margins and frequently misunderstood and whose humanity gets lost behind the labels and I want to bring them to the forefront through story and through introductions. You know, I've got I've got a lot of friends. Ah, that are amazing. Amazing, Amazing. People who have just come from the ashes and and risen again are doing incredible work in the world. And I just want I just want to interview him like you're interviewing me, and I just want to bring them. Just talk about that's what I love I just loved hard with. Yeah,
spk_1: 52:10
well, you're get at it. You're very good at it. You're really to talk Teoh off my list. Just upside. Just last night were just this love fast here, Uh, so much fun. And I will put that on my list, and everybody out there has to listen, Teoh and, um, I can't wait to hear who you bring on, and
spk_0: 52:37
yeah, I probably got ahead of myself posting it already because I have got to produce quite a few this weekend to catch up with myself, cause yeah, that'll be good. That'll be good.
spk_1: 52:47
It's good. You've got it globally. It's just just hunker down. That's what I always you know, I record a couple of when I the recording parts super fun and then the editing part is, you know, you just kind of, like, shut yourself in a room for a couple of hours and go right
spk_0: 53:04
now. Well, I want O Connor sometime. You gotta You gotta have him reach out to me after he reads the book. I will. I love the doubt with them. How old is he?
spk_1: 53:17
He's 19. Um, will be 20 and July. So, um, he's very excited about officially not being a teenager anymore.
spk_0: 53:27
Right on. Well, hey, listen, um, let him know that he's welcome any time to reach out to me.
spk_1: 53:34
I will. Thank you. The really mind. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, he is. Ah, just He is a cool kid. Um, if you ever have a cheeky he did a show with me a few months ago. I listened. Did you listen to check that out? Yeah. All right. I mean, it's it's one of my faves, cause that one was particularly fun toe to edit because you're fat. Their report. I was like, Okay, you can't swear on this, because otherwise I have to raid it differently on out.
spk_0: 54:11
Yeah, I swore I dropped something while we were talking. They're gonna have to pull that out. I thought like you said it.
spk_1: 54:18
I think that will be OK. I was just really were, you know, he's a 19 year old boy, so I knew what could possibly fly out of his mouth. And so I was giggling as I was added eggs on. So I go, There it is. And there's a rant, and there's it was just loved. It was That's great. Oh, yes, I will definitely let him know. And, um, you know, he he loves this. They're all super cute about, You know, my podcast had told them they all had to be very quiet over doing this today. So thistles sheltering in place and having everybody at home makes it a little more mature Eso anyway. Oh, my goodness. Well, is there anything else that you'd like to share that I can just put out in the world for you?
spk_0: 55:09
No, I think you're doing great. I appreciate you having me on. I appreciate the work you're doing. Thanks for plugging my book. Um, I'm gonna be doing a, um, a series of virtual online talking circles with Susan control from freed hearts dot org's we're gonna be holding space online, uh, for the LGBTQ folks, Um, something that I used to do in the jails and prisons. When I worked, I worked in the jails in prisons and we used to hold, um, healing circles with the men and women who are incarcerated. And it won't be quite, you know, it's ah, it'll be a simpler version of that which I did inside. But they're powerful and they just create a wonderful space. I've never done one virtually. So it's gonna you know, the shelter in place is forcing us to take what we were going to do in retreat weekends for her beloved we need, and we're gonna be doing it online. So it's we'll see what happens. But we've got people signed up, and we're looking forward to it. So cross your fingers and hope that that goes well And, uh, more of them, uh, and eventually live. So it's exciting. It's exciting that we're at a time when we can talk about it and we can create space for people that have their experience. And I'm just glad that I, uh, you know, um am well and and is grateful you know, and that I can hopefully be somebody for people like Connor or people like me when I was younger, to look too and be like, Wow, maybe I can grow up and be happy and be healthy. Maybe I can be and love God, Maybe I can be gay and be married. Maybe I can be all of the things that I was that I was, you know, gifted to be. Maybe I can. That's what I want to be is just that hope. You know,
spk_1: 57:02
I love that well, you are the hope dealer, right? You know, I love laugh. I love that. That's and it's perfect. And e I couldn't have said that better. So you you do embody all of those things, and you are such a great it mentor. And, um, person, you're so easy to connect with that. But all of these everyone who meets you and just doing what you do is is perfect. And I'm so I'm so excited for you. And I definitely will put some information out there about the virtual Um, what you're doing with Susan and the beloved weekends coming up, I have to check off to check the virtual ones out as well. That would be so much fun. So thank you. Thank you.
spk_0: 57:58
Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
spk_1: 58:01
You are welcome.
spk_0: 58:04
Thanks so much for joining Jen and me today. Remember to just breathe taking a few minutes each day to focus on your breath and calm and center yourself. It will give you strength and clarity especially right now. Check out the show notes on my website for the links I mentioned for Jen's book, website podcast and soul circles with Susan Cottrill. And please help me continue to reach more people who need support and love by subscribing to and reviewing. Just breathe and share this with anyone who needs to know they are not alone until next time.
