10. Chartbeat's John Saroff on social analytics and the future of online publishing

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Geek Out with Matt Navarra is sponsored by Pinterest. Inspire your audience and grow your company on Pinterest with a free business account. Learn more at business.pinterest.com. It's time to Geek Out.
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[upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to Geek Out with Matt Navarra, sponsored by Pinterest. I am Matt Navarra. And I'm Martin SFP Bryant.
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Now, one thing there's no getting away from in the modern world is that almost everything can be measured, often in real time.
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Our guest today is responsible for a product that measures the popularity of content on many of the web's biggest news sites. Jon Sarof is the CEO of Chartbeat.
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Meaning he'll have lots of insights into the current state of technology in terms of online publishing, so we're interested to chat to him about that and many more things.
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So don't forget, you can always, um, get in touch with us on Twitter, where you'll find me as @MattNavarra. And I'm @MartinSFP. So Matt, what have you been up to this week?
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Oh, well, I've not had to do as much traveling as you, 'cause I know me and you have a little- [laughs]... bit of piece of work we're working on which has been taking up a lot of time.
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But I've been thinking about the future of this show really because we're at the halfway stage of season two already, 'cause we, you know, six episodes.
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And, uh, started to think about, you know, sponsorship and all those sorts of things, and I'm an complete amateur to this game, so I'm kind of making it up as I go along.
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Faking it 'til I make it as Boris would have said at the Next Web. [laughs] Don't tell him that. Well, you know, I, I've always, always been open with these things. But yeah, but- They call it transparency.
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But well, yes, so we, we now sort of been think- I've been thinking about all that sort of stuff this week, and then, uh, just getting sort of soaked up, and there's been so much weird stuff that I found online this week.
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Some of it I was gonna, um, do later on, but there, there's so many of them. Let's just quickly go to some of these. So there was one story about, you know, the, the Dolly Parton challenge.
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You know, people were driving me mad with this, this week, so just stop now. There's no need for that anymore.
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And then there was a big debate about the, you know, do you call Instagram Insta or the Gram or IG or anything else? Which, Martin, which, which do you call it, by the way? I call it Instagram, 'cause that's its name.
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[laughs] I, I don't know. I, I'd feel really, I'd feel really weird calling it the Gram or something. Um, maybe that's just me.
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Oh, and then the, the story for me, which was the headline of the week, was this one, which was TikTok teenagers, um, teenage boys dipping balls in soy sauce and setting houses on fire.
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That- [laughs] That's like, well, TikTok, you know, it's, it's a slow clap on that one. Yeah, yeah. So essentially you've been despairing at the news this week. That's, that's what you've been doing.
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No, it's just been lots of frivolous kind of fun stuff, which is, is quite weird. Um, but, uh, there's some more of these and, um, some more sensible things later on in, in the quick hits for me. What about you? Yeah.
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Um, I've been, uh, actually pretty excited 'cause there's been new consumer apps that are actually really interesting and haven't come from big tech companies.
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Uh, so back when we were both working at the Next Web, it felt like every day there'd be some interesting new app coming out, or certainly every week there'd be something new for us to get excited about.
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And it kind of slowed down over the last few years, but just this week, uh, Scroll has come out of, uh, uh, beta, so that's available now to everyone. Scroll is an app that's basically a publisher-endorsed ad blocker.
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The idea is, uh, you run it, and you pay small amounts every month. It's £2, no, $2.49 to start off with. It'll go up after six months to double that, but still, you know, less than $5 a month.
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And on all the sites it works with, which is things like Business Insider and, um, Vox media titles like, uh, The Verge, a bunch of other sites, uh, it will remove all the ads, so you get a lovely clean experience.
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And your money from paying Scroll, a share of that goes to the people whose sites you visited.
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So you're actually paying them directly, and apparently it works out, uh, actually a better rate than they'd get if they were showing you ads. So I really like that.
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I've been playing with it for a few months, but, uh, it's great to see it out in the wild. And then Product Hunt launched Your Stack, which, uh, is, it, I really like it. Um, we both signed up for it yesterday.
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You signed up for it a bit before me, uh, which, um, uh, I noticed you were on there a few hours before me, 'cause I was on a train when it launched. And, uh, uh, what do you make of it? I really like it.
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Well, I got a sneaky confession to make. I, R- Ryan Hoover, the founder of Product Hunt, did message me and said, "I've whitelisted you. You can go and play with it now."
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So I was, I got in there and started playing with it when it came out, and I've only spent, pr, about 45 minutes, an hour flicking through it when it came out. Um, but it's cool.
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It's really good, and I think it's, it's kind of, uh, it seems sort of one of those so obvious things when you think of it as an extension to Product Hunt.
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It's, uh, 'cause I'm always looking for those discussions, and it's not easy to find. And, uh, this kind of solves a problem, and it's quite fun for, for nerds like me anyway. Yeah. So I like it. Yeah.
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It's like a kind of TripAdvisor for products almost. Yeah. And that's something we could turn into- And we get that in the group all the time as well.
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You know, questions, people saying, you know, "What's the best this tool? What's the best that tool?" Um, so th- those questions can be now placed there as well, and you get some great answers.
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But also they have things like, um, pro, um, pro tips, so people saying really funny, sometimes quirky, but also really helpful things you've never thought of doing with one other tech product that can solve another problem or, or a tip on using a s- tool that everyone gets stuck on.
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So yeah, it's got lots of stuff to offer, and I think it'll be really popular. And the other one was Byte, which has launched, but we'll talk about that in the news section. Our guest this week is Mr.
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Real-time Publishing Stats, so welcome to Chartbeat CEO, Jon Sarof. Thank you guys very, very much. It's a, it's an honor to be here.
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Well, um, g- we're great to have you here, and we're gonna talk all about the stuff that you get involved in at Chartbeat and how that relates to my previous roles and other interesting things that I'm just geekily wanting to ask you about.
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So we'll come onto that shortly. Anything that I can do to satisfy your, your geekish tendencies is, is, is a pleasure, pl- absolute pleasure. Perfect, yes. Great stuff.
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[laughs] So social media news, what's going on, Martin? Well, a bit of, uh, breaking news as we're recording this podcast.
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Uh, Damian Collins, a former guest on this show, uh, of course, uh, he was the DCMS Select Committee Chair who has been hounding the social media companies, the big tech companies over regulation and wanting to hear from Mark Zuckerberg and all of that.
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Uh, he has not kept his role as the chair of the DCMS Select Committee. So, uh, uh, a new, uh, guy has taken his place, uh, another Conservative MP, Julian Knight.
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So we'll have to see if he's, uh, quite so much of a bulldog. Uh, we'll have to wait and see, but, uh, surprising news there, Matt. Yeah, it is.
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I haven't been following the kind of, uh, sort of changeover for this and, and seeing where it was going, so this is kind of fresh to me.
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And, uh, yeah, it's interesting 'cause y- I, I was always quite impressed by, by Damian's work in terms of not only what he was trying to achieve, um, but also the, the way that he went about it.
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I think he was bullish, but I think he was also, uh, reasonable. And so from that point of view, it's, uh, I hope that the, the next person is as good.
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Um, but, so but yes, I think Mark Zuckerberg can sort of sit there smiling this evening. I'm sure he's quite pleased with that news, I would imagine. I don't know, what, what do you, uh, think about this, John?
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Any, any thoughts on that?
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I don't know if Mark Zuckerberg, um, given with Brussels, London, and Washington all curious about Facebook, um, you know, I, I don't know, uh, British politics that well, but I, I do think that, uh, maybe he can sleep better because it's less of an attack dog.
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But, um, you know, I, I can imagine that there's gonna be a lot of regulation, uh, around Facebook, at least a lot of questions about Facebook coming from those three governments, uh, you know, over the course of the next couple years.
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So I'm not sure if he can sleep that much better. No, I think he's just got one less, uh, character that had a certain style, I think is probably the thing.
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But you're right, I think there's gonna be a lot more of this coming up in the next, uh, well, every day and every month from, from here on inwards, I think, until it's settled.
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Um, but what else have we got going on in the news this week?
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Uh, as we mentioned briefly earlier, the, uh, Vine reboot, the, uh, sequel to Vine, the, uh, app, uh, looping video app from one of the founders of Vine, Byte, officially launched at one of the strangest times I've seen an app launch ever, uh, for quite a high-profile app.
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It was the end of Friday, so it was kind of like midnight on Saturday around, uh, around the UK time. But, uh, kind of still end of the working day, uh, in, in, uh, the West Coast of the US as well.
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So that was quite an interesting timing. But, uh, the app itself is actually really good. So you, you think that maybe, you know, with TikTok on the scene, there'd be no space for another app.
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Having played around with Byte a bit, it's got its own flavor to the content, and they're doing an interesting thing where they, they're going to do revenue share with, uh, some of the creators.
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So I think there's an opportunity here. Matt, you've been using it for a while. What do you make of it? Yeah, I was in the beta for this, and I've been in it for, oh, several months now.
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May- I, I can't remember, about three or four months. Um, and, uh, it's great. I really like it. I don't think... It, it, it, it obviously has some similarities to, um, TikTok in, in, you know, short-form video.
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You can't get away from that. Um, there's, you know, lots of differences in that TikTok has a much more developed creator toolkit to play around with. This is much more, you know, of a simpler experience for now.
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Um, and I think that the content, I think it's gonna be, uh, appeal to people who like that renaissance of, uh, of Vine, 'cause there's a lot of love, I think, still for Vine out there.
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I think it'll appeal to people who are interested in TikTok, who use TikTok, because it has a lot of similarities.
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Um, so I think it'll, it'll live or die by kind of the community that built, is built around it, and, and if it does, um, find some sort of niche within it that's, uh, gives it a, a USP. But, um, I dunno.
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John, what do you think? Uh, I will, um, leave the judgment to my 16-year-old stepdaughter, Nina. And when she starts using it, it will have succeeded.
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Uh, and until she does, uh, it will be in, like, the great unknown for me, right?
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Having a 16-year-old, r- year-old at home just gives you a much, much better sense of whether or not these things are gonna take off or, or, or not. So I'm gonna leave it to Nina. Absolutely. Well, I'm the same.
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I, I, I, I've been a slow burn on, in terms of use of TikTok, but it's, it's got me by the algorithm, and I'm s- I'm stuffed now- [laughs]... I'm absolutely stuffed. Um, we've got some other news from Facebook.
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What's been going on with Facebook this week?
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Yeah, so they finally, uh, launched their, um, Off Facebook Activity tool, which is, uh, something that you can, uh, go into in your settings, and you can see all the data that Facebook has essentially bought in from other providers, uh, other apps and things that you use.
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Uh, so you can see what the kinds of things they've collected from these, uh, companies, and you can, uh, you can't delete them completely. That's the other thing.
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Um, uh, uh, Facebook kind of made it seem like maybe you could just delete it and block it from ever coming through again. They'll still collect it.
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It just won't be as tightly linked to the rest of your Facebook identity. So, uh, it seems a bit smoke and mirrors in terms of how they're doing this. Matt, what do you think? Yeah.
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I, I kind of caught the first bit of it, you know, that it was out, and I'd actually spotted it by, n- you know I'm, like, geeky with these things.
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I was going through the, uh, [laughs] the settings of the app about a week before this news came out, and I found the setting for Off Facebook Activity, and I was, "Ah, that's new," and I tweeted it out as I always do and thought nothing more of it, forgetting, you know, I was so busy that this, you know, was something that we knew was coming and was a big deal.
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And then, uh, of course it was released. Um, but I think, you know, uh, credit for them for doing something. That's good. Well done, Facebook, [laughs] for doing something, so we should give them credit there.
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But yeah, it's a lot of, there's a little, the, the, it's all about the subtleties and, and the nuances of the tool.
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And as Martin was saying about it's not really deleting or stopping or blocking, it's more about kind of sort of putting it in one place and kind of keeping it separate from other things and other connections and, you know, out in the background.
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So if ch- things change and they want to use it, or maybe they use it in ways they shouldn't be, who knows? It's been accused before. Um, then, uh, then that's what they could do.
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So yeah, I don't think it's gonna have great effect in terms of, uh, the f- the, the love vibe that people don't- It is worth though-... now for Facebook...
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yeah, it is worth going and looking at your, uh, Off Facebook Activity section in the settings of Facebook, though, just because it'll open your eyes to the kinds of companies that, you know, maybe you've got, there's a free app that you use a lot, and it turns out that actually there's a lot of data being fed back to Facebook from there that you, you didn't think Facebook would have any business knowing Yeah, I was, uh, s- I was blown away.
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I mean, I, um, it took... I, I don't have Facebook on my phone. I'm an occasional web user. Like, I use it probably, you know, once every couple of weeks.
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And, uh, you know, I went in there and was stunned at just how much the Pixel tracks me, right? Like, on apps that I never even think about, right?
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Like, there's a, there's a food delivery app that I use, you know, every couple of days that as far as I can remember, have never, ever, ever... I don't use Facebook to log in, right?
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I- it's just an app that I use to order my lunch, and I was stunned that something like, you know, 372 times it had accessed my, my [laughs] Facebook profile. I just couldn't believe it, right?
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You just, that, that kind of stuff, I mean, I would suggest everybody just go in there and check it out, right? Because it's, uh, it's amazing. It's absolutely amazing.
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Uh, yeah, I did a thing for, um, Mozilla not so long ago with Firefox, and they, they asked me to spend, uh, a day from the moment I sat at my computer till the last moment of the day, um, um, tracking using their, uh, in Firefox built-in kind of, uh, blocking, uh, trackers, um, tool feature, um, to see how many per hour and what sites and things.
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And by the end of the day, I had a thousand trackers that were following all of the movements from web site to site and things I was searching for, everything else.
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Um, and, uh, and it was predominantly from publishing sites, which I'm gonna s- gonna come onto a question about the, these sorts of things with you in a bit. But, uh, yeah, interesting stuff nonetheless.
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So John, tell everybody a bit about yourself and a bit about Chartbeat because I know it's a really important app and I also really enjoyed using it when I was at the Next Web, and I know lots of my kind of geeky tech media news type people who work in publishers are very aware of, of it, but not everyone is, is like that.
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So tell, tell us a bit about it. Not everyone is like that? I know. I know. Really? I, I can't imagine that. Um, so I'm John Saroff.
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Uh, I'm the CEO of Chartbeat, um, and we're the, the world's leading real-time, uh, analytics tool for media companies and marketers.
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And what, uh, Chartbeat helps folks do is, um, y- you know, see what their audience is consuming, see what content their audience is consuming in real time, and then react to it.
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So, you know, to use you guys at the Next Web, um, you know, folks, uh, at places like the Next Web, um, you know, will see how people are reacting to their stories, their videos, both on site, in app, on social platforms, um, and then make real-time decisions.
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So, you know, maybe double down by promoting, uh, something on Facebook or on Twitter or perhaps optimizing a headline or optimizing an image.
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Um, and, you know, over the years we've built kind of a suite of tools really, really focused on this real-time optimization use case. Um, and, uh, we've got about 700 clients in about 70 countries.
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Um, we serve them all from one office here in New York City, and, uh, that's where I'm talking to you from. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, we got some interesting questions I think anyway to ask you.
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Most of them from my geeky kind of background of the TNW days. But, uh, Martin, I think you got a couple of things. Yeah.
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So you must get, obviously you're collecting all this data from all these different publishers, so you must get a, a nice overview of trends when it comes to the publishing world as a whole online.
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So, uh, how have consumption behaviors changed in general i- in the last couple of years? Have you, have you seen any, any shifts in the way we as readers are, are, are changing our habits? Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, it's actually, it's, um, the, it's, it, it's one of the best, one of the best parts about working here is just that we get to see those trends and, you know, we get to talk to folks like you and, and our clients about them.
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Um, so the overwhelming number one trend is just the shift to mobile.
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I think that, um, you know, uh, uh, when you guys were at the Next Web, you know, and when I started here, which was in, in 2013, you know, it was about 55/45 desktop/mobile in terms of, um, media, uh, uh, news consumption specifically.
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And over the last six or seven years, um, that's more than flipped, right? So now we're talking about 65 getting on 70% mobile consumption. Um, and that's, uh, that's, you know, stunning, right?
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And I, you know, the, the reason it's so stunning is that frequently, um,
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y- you know, you'll, you'll go to somebody's office and you'll see them kind of laying out, you know, whether it's a, a marketing campaign or a, a, you know, a, a, a, a sports section or whatever it may be, um, and they'll be laying it out on some giant 60-inch screen and, y- you know, the reality is that everybody's gonna look at it on a, you know, on an iPhone.
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Um, and I think that's, that's the number one biggest shift is just that, you know, we have all moved to devices and, and, uh, everybody's gotta be aware of that.
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And there's also, like, people's, um, behaviors in terms of, um, where they're, the device that they're using and also the, the, the way that they're doing it, whether it's through a d- a, a, an app of, of the specific kind of publisher or, or through social media in, in, in one of their g- like, private groups.
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Uh, is there anything in those things that has changed as well, or has that been quite static for a while, or where, where are we with that? No, that's, that's- Uh, also changed a, a great deal.
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I mean, I think, you know, w- w- we saw from kinda 2000 to 2000... From 2000 kinda 13 to 2017 kind of an inexorable rise of Facebook, and we kind of never thought that, uh, it would stop.
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Um, and then in kind of late 2017, early 2018, Facebook changed their algorithm to prioritize, uh, what they called, I think, friends and family content over kind of news content.
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And, and just for your, your listeners, this is all organic stuff we're talking about, not, not paid stuff, right? This is just folks, people and publishers and marketers posting without putting any money behind it.
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Um, and then they changed the algorithm in late 2017, early 2018, and it went off a cliff. So Facebook traffic, um, to our customers went down by about 40% in, you know, about a six-month timeframe.
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Um, and the thing that I, we found really interesting was that, uh, basically simultaneously, um, you know, traffic from search, specifically from Google, um, increased actually more than that.
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So over that time, the, the, the rise in Google more than overcame the drop in Facebook. Um, and, you know, that tells you a couple of things.
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One, it, it tells you that people actually care, and they really wanna consume, um, you know, high-quality content. Um, uh, b- and they're, they're gonna find it no matter what.
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And it also tells you that Google, you know, which for a long time was seen as kind of a mobile laggard, is doing a heck of a job, right?
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I mean, between Android, um, the Accelerated Mobile Pages Project, which is super geeky and, um, nicknamed AMP for the super geeks out there, um, and also just kind of a, a general investment in speed and referenceability, um, Google and search, uh, is now I think by far the number one referrer to our customers.
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Um, I think one of you asked a quick question about, you know, are they getting there from apps, and that's also a renaissance story, which is I think, you know, as Facebook declined, um, publishers own apps and, and, uh, for the marketers that have apps, their own apps actually also rose.
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So people actually started downloading apps, started consuming them, um, and that's als- also driven to kind of a, a transition to, um, you know, different business models and, and all sorts of things.
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I mean, can you, can you still within Charbi and, and I guess any tools, um, uh, be able to see a significant, uh, kind of movement in, when an algorithm change may have occurred?
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Even ones when they've publicly said this is gonna happen, but also the ones where there's a suspicion.
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Uh, do you notice enough of a difference to kinda give you that signal, or, or is it such more subtle these days with, with algorithmic change? Uh, no, it, it, you know, it ranges.
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I think, you know, there are the things that, that... Just to, to contrast the two I talked about, right?
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The, the Google change happened very, very steadily over time, so we kind of, you know, at first thought it was a blip, and, you know, you know, maybe it was just an event like, you know, a sports event or a weather event, right?
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You know, Google traffic tends to spike around big events, but then it just kept going, and that, that was more gradual. Um, the Facebook thing was clearly an algorithm shift. I mean, you know, th- there was a, a...
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You know, we keep kind of a graph in the office that we're always updating around where traffic is coming from, and it literally, you just see, um, kind of one day in October and one day in January, and it looks, it looks like a cliff, right?
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It j- just boom.
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Um, now I, I should say to the audience just so that they're not, um, uh, you know, confused, um, in the intervening time, actually traffic from Facebook has picked back up, and we actually have no idea why, right?
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Like, they haven't said anything publicly. Um, they did announce the, the negative algorithm change, um, publicly, but they haven't said anything, uh, about this.
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But now our publishers are beginning to see more traffic from Facebook once again. Yeah, and I think it's also they got the, the, the, the, um, today in the sort of local news is, uh, is there.
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I'm not sure how much of an impact that is because I don't think it's sort of widely spread yet. I think it's mostly US, isn't it? Um, but, um, but there...
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And there's Watch, and there's con- video content and things like that, that... But yeah, I think you're right. You know, there hasn't been any significant announcement about other algorithmic things, but, um, but yeah.
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Martin. Yeah, I was just wanting to drill down into that Google thing a bit more because you were mentioning, uh, the, uh, the rise of Google traffic.
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Uh, as I understand it, the, the new tab, uh, page in Chrome on mobile is a big driver of that because they put loads of news on there. Is, is that what's driving a lot of this traffic? Um, so it, that is additional.
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So we actually, we classify, um... When I say Google, I'm specifically sp- when I said Google before, I'm specifically talking about Google Search.
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The thing that you're talking about, which, um, uh, uh, people call it all sorts of different things, and we call it Google Chrome suggestions.
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Um, y- you know, I think it actually has an official Google name, but in- internally, we call it Google Chrome suggestions.
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Um, that thing actually is, is separate, and that thing, you know, just to put an order of magnitude, that thing sends as much traffic to publishers, actually more traffic to publishers, than Twitter does in aggregate.
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Um, so it's this thing that actually I think very few of us notice, right? We open up Chrome on our, you know, iPhone, iPad, Android, and we're like, "Oh, you know, let me click on this," right?
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Mine is filled with Rise of Skywalker, you know, criticism and speculation, right? Um, a- and, you know, inevitably I click on it.
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Um, but that thing is now bigger than Twitter, and it just shows you the power, um, that, that Google has, right?
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You know, when these defaults, um, either they're behavioral defaults 'cause you're just used to using them, or they are, um, you know, installed defaults because your, um, your, uh, carrier has put them on, on your phone.
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It just shows you like, you know, the power of these defaults, which is just that, you know, you kind of get in the habit, you start clicking, and then massive trends happen downstream. Good stuff.
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And, uh, so in terms of metrics now, you know, what sort of metrics, um, w- are brands tending to be or publishers tending to want to be able to get information on, and which ones should they be focusing on?
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You know, I know, uh, in years gone by, it wasn't so long ago, there was a big discussion, um, about attention and an attention score, and prior to that, it was, you know, you know, p- classic page views and kind of, you know, bounce rates and things.
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Talk us through what, you know, where, where things are at now in terms of, um, publishers, big or small. Yeah. I think, you know, you're seeing a little bit of a diversification.
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I think, you know, uh, folks who are still really wedded to an ad model, um, you know, uh, folks who, you know, portals and, um, you know, anybody who, you know, has broad distribution and doesn't, isn't really trying to sell you a, a subscription or, or drive you to a, a, a purchase, right?
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Those folks are still concerned with pages and uniques, right? It's about reach, and it's about, um, bulk.
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Um, you know, what we're seeing increasingly and where we're taking Chartbeat is to much, much more of a focus on loyalty, right?
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And much more of a focus on getting the right people in who are gonna help you build an audience over time, right?
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What we've just seen is that the most sustainable businesses are the businesses that focus on, you know, the loyalists. They understand what their loyalists want.
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They understand how to reach them, um, and they rep- uh, reach them repeatedly in multiple channels.
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Um, and that's, that- that's, those folks are much more worried about things like, um, what we call engaged time, right?
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Which is a metric, uh, that you kind of alluded to about engagement, which is actually how much time a user is spending actively consuming content on the site or the app.
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Um, and they're much more worried about things like, um, what we call recirculation, which is the, um, uh, you know, uh, percentage of people that have actually viewed more than one article on, on a site, right?
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If you're actually trying to build loyalty, um, those two metrics in concert can really, really, really help you deepen engagement, right? And, and I think we all kind of get that intuitively, right? It's much easier...
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If somebody's already decided to come spend time with you, it's much easier to get them to come back than it is to get a, a all new person to come in.
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And I actually think finally the business models are beginning to line up to that.
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'Cause I think for years everyone was so obsessed with reach, and they didn't really care where that reach came from, and I think that's really, really changing. Yeah.
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Listen, I absolutely agree, and that, uh, is an area that I'd like to spend more time dealing with, and it's some- something I miss from not being at the Next Web anymore. But, uh, Martin?
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When we were talking before about Facebook and, uh, how it's a great source of traffic or how it used to be a great source of traffic and seems to be again, you were saying, uh, coming back, uh, I was remembering the golden days, maybe five, six years ago, when, uh, publishers could post, uh, a story on their site, and some time later they'd post it on Facebook, and the traffic would instantly, it was like that.
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It was like a- Oh, I remember in the Next Web- Yeah... we would have events when we'd kind of like, "Guys, it's picking up. Something's happening. We want... Something's happening on Reddit.
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Something's happening on Reddit," or, "Something's happening from somewhere else." And you'd see Google Analytics or Chartbeat or whatever we were using at the time, um, just going through the roof, and it was insane.
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We'd be like two, three hours ordering in pizza. It was, it was- Ah... geek entertainment at its geekiest. Yeah, and the writers would all, uh, be, uh, petitioning you, Matt, saying, "Please put my post up on Facebook.
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Please put my post up on Facebook." But I just wondered what the situation now is, um, John, around, uh, social media.
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What, what are the sources, uh, um, when it comes to social are the particularly, uh, big sources, uh, and, uh, how, how are publishers approaching using social media as a traffic source?
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Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a great question. I mean, listen, I, I don't wanna pretend like, you know, you guys are talking about the horse and buggy days, right? Like, that still does happen, right?
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There are still, um, you know, massive Facebook spikes. It is such a big platform.
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It is still, you know, somewhat unpredictable, and that kind of stuff still happens, and it still, you know, is the big dopamine hit for, for lots and lots of folks.
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Um- Well, on that point, J- John, on that point though, um, I think the... Uh, uh, I don't think we've, uh, ever had a major traffic spike like that from Facebook.
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The only time it's happened is either come from Reddit, I think 80% of the time, Hacker News, um, and sometimes just something completely off the wall that you wouldn't expect that's, it's huge.
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But in, um, in terms of traffic from Twitter or Facebook, it's never hit those kind of skylight, sky-high levels. Well, that's l- that's, that's a reflection of your vertical, right?
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I mean, I think, you know, if you're in, you know, mainstream sports, mainstream news, mainstream entertainment, right?
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Like, that's the, that kind of stuff is just, um, still really, really, really can, can pop on Facebook and Twitter because the reach is just so, so big.
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Um, but I think what's, what's kind of happened, I think after that drop with publishers, um, and, and, and, you know, marketers who had organic reach kind of realized was, you know, we just can't rely on this, right?
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We just can't.
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We, we have to, we have to plan as if it's not gonna happen and build our business o- otherwise, and if it happens, that's gravy, and, you know, we can, you know, maybe buy a, you know, couple extra pints at the end of the day.
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But let's not, let's not go crazy trying to build a business off of it. Um, and I think that's probably the right way.
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And, and, and what we're seeing actually is, you know, that a lot of the other social platforms, you know, folks, things like Instagram, things like TikTok, are used much, much more for things like branding than they are for kind of revenue generating or, um, you know, audience building exercises.
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So for example, like, you know, uh, you know, just to reveal my inner news geek, right? Like my, um, my favorite TikTok is the Washington Post TikTok. I don't know if you guys have checked it out. Oh, I love it.
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It's great. Right, it's amazing, right? And, you know, why are they doing that?
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Well, one, they're doing it to have fun 'cause it looks like a hell of a lot of fun, and two, I think they're doing it because they wanna humanize The Washington Post.
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I think they, you know, it's a subscription-driven, uh, publication, right? They wanna build a loyal audience.
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They know that, you know, it, it's a brand that, um, you know, is laden with history and, and tradition and, and high quality but, you know, for a certain segment of the American population, right, like doesn't really have a brand face.
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And I think what they're doing with that TikTok is they're trying to put kind of a fun and approachable face on The Washington Post for folks who, you know, didn't grow up in DC and, and, you know, don't have that association with it and still think about it through the lens of All the President's Men.
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And, and I think it's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant.
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And I think, um, the Vox properties, you know, especially kind of like things like Eater are doing that with Instagram and, um, you know, things like, um, the Intelligencer are doing that with Instagram, and that's really, really, really different than five years ago where everybody just looked at social and they were like, "Traffic, traffic, traffic, traffic, traffic," right?
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That's, that's not exactly what it is anymore. Is it now the case then with publishers that being that traffic for, for maybe more than usual, uh, or more than in the past is not, is not so much of a big thing?
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It's more about, uh, attention or conversions around the site or, or other things.
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You know, what is it, the other things it's about for publishers other, other than traffic, and, and how does that affect, you know, third-party tools that have kind of always been geared towards, you know, tracking things like, you know, page views?
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Yeah. It's, it's, it's a really good point. I mean, you know, for us, it's, it's about a big, big focus, um, and a big, you know, sh- push we're making this year, um, into understanding loyalty and conversion, right?
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I just think that there, um, you know, we've always been really good at measuring loyalty, right?
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We've w- w- you know, our focus, um, in, you know, when you guys were using the tool was, okay, you got this Facebook spike, how do you convert that into a loyal reader, right?
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Now, it's, you know, you've got this spike, or you broke this amazing story, or, you know, you have these readers that you never got before from Google, right? How do you convert them into subscribers?
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Or if you're something like, you know, The Wirecutter, right, how do you turn them into people who are going to, you know, uh, click on affiliate links a- around your site?
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And, and I think that's, that's where all of us have to go, right? Because, you know, uh, that's what's going to be, um, the future, right? Everybody is becoming a B2C brand.
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Um, and, you know, they're gonna have different levers for you to pull, but everybody's becoming a B2C brand, and, you know, we have to change to reflect that.
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And, you know, we're very, very lucky that we have incredible users around the globe who, who love our products.
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Um, but we, you know, there's the Andy Grove saying, "Only the paranoid survive" and, you know, you have to be constantly innovating or else you're in the wrong business.
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So what are some of the classic mistakes publishers are making when it comes to content and social media as a distribution channel?
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You know, the, the things that happened even a year ago already seem kind of strategies or, or what people are thinking about this sort of space is, is different. So where is it in 2020?
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I, I think there's a couple things. I think number one, right, like, you, you gotta have a goal for, for every platform, right?
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You have to absolutely understand, right, like, you know, this is what we're trying to get out of TikTok, this is what we're trying to get out of Instagram, this is what we're trying to get out of Apple News.
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Um, and, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing, right? It can reflect the audience that's there.
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Um, but you have to have a strategy, and I think the, the places where we, um, that we're constantly advising our users and our customers on are, is just really, really understand, um, you know, what, what your purpose is, right?
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It's, it's almost like kind of merchandising, right? You know, um, you know, when you write a story or shoot a video, um, you know, what platform are you, are you shooting it for, um, and what's its goal?
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Um, and, you know, thinking about that, I think, constantly just helps you build a better business and helps you build, uh, you know, a brand that connects more with folks.
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And I think the place where people run into trouble is, you know, experimentation is fun, and I think that, you know, constantly experimenting, but when it becomes, um, you know, just doing it for doing it's sake, that's where folks get into, into trouble.
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I was just thinking about a few years ago when I wrote a piece about, um, ad blockers, and I was saying, uh, this was a, a furious piece I wrote when ad blockers were starting to become really popular.
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I was saying that ad blockers were absolutely terrible, and they were appalling, and anyone who uses them were hate, uh, hated publishers, and they should, they should, uh, delete their ad blocker immediately, and it was unethical to, to use an ad blocker.
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And I roundly got criticized by people who were saying, "You don't understand how bad ad tech has become." And I, I, I've shifted my mind on that quite a lot since then.
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Not quick enough that that p- piece didn't get cited in a book someone wrote. [laughs] It has been quoted in a book. You live, you live forever on the internet, Martin. You live forever on the internet. That's right.
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And, and in printed paper form sadly. Yeah. But, uh, but yeah.
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So, uh, so if we look at w- now, I mean, I'm reading, I'm reading our notes for this episode on, uh, in, in Google Docs in Brave, a browser which is designed to strip tracking and all sorts of things out of- Oh, he's one of those.
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He's one of those, John One of those. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's become... Well, it's become normal now I think.
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Uh, you know, uh, uh, just, just this week, uh, your predecessor as CEO of, uh, Chartbeat, Tony Hale, launched Scroll, which is, uh, like a publisher...
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We were talking about this earlier on the show before you joined us actually. So it's a publisher-endorsed ad blocker essentially.
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Um, so it, it's perhaps challenging times for publishers who, uh, uh, may be finding the backlash against ad tech growing.
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Um, where are publishers in terms of monetization and, and solving that whole puzzle in, in the modern age? Yeah. Uh, listen, I think they've become much, much more, uh, progressive in the last even 18 months.
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I, I think that, you know, th- I think that the Facebook thing was a kind of a wake-up call, um, that you, you know, had to come up with, with new models, and I think that what we're seeing is, um, that particularly subscriptions and commerce, uh, you know, a- affiliate stuff, um, have really, really taken off.
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Folks are now reorienting their business, um, you know, in those two directions.
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And, uh, the thing that I really like about it is that, um, uh, you know, folks are, uh, you know, experimenting, but they're experimenting tactically, right?
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They're actually, you know, signing up with, with a Scroll, right, and, uh, you know, full disclosure, right, Chartbeat is actually, uh, you know, supporting Tony and is an, a, a very, very small investor in Scroll.
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But we, you know, w- we think that what he's doing is, is brilliant, right?
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He's, he's jumping on a trend, which is ad blocking, and he's trying to turn that into consumer revenue, and, you know, that's a great experiment. He's got some great people on board.
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Um, but then we also look at, you know, I think, you know, all sorts of different subscription models and reader revenue models are beginning to emerge, right?
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Whether you're The Guardian, you know, with the little, uh, yellow membership thing at the bottom of every page, or you're The New York Times, right, you know, a- or you're, you know, uh, somebody who's got a Substack newsletter and is charging, you know, 10 bucks a month for, you know, football coverage, right?
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I think, like, th- there's just a much, much bigger and broader diversity, and it's much less reliant on, you know, a- a- ad agencies and Madison Avenue than it was, you know, four or five years ago.
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Now, I think the trick is that if you actually look at the P&Ls of these businesses, right, uh, uh, advertising is still huge, right?
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[laughs] It's still, like, the lion's share, and the transition is gonna be really, really hard, right?
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But I do think that we're gonna come out of the transition, you know, could be in a couple years, could be in 10 years.
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We're gonna come out of the transition with really, really, really strong kind of next generation publishers that really, you know, know how to deliver stuff to, to audiences.
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And how does it work now for someone like, uh, um, a, a Chartbeat or, or just for publishers themselves when a lot of the, um, things that are kind of progressive or, or innovative in this space now, things like, um, smart speakers and, and, uh, uh, podcasts and, and things about listening and viewing a video, listening to audio, viewing of, uh, video, and some of the kind of newsletter subscriptions.
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Is it, is it more all about kind of all the different subscriptions and, uh, as a monetization option that kind of needs to be managed by a publisher, or, or is there, is there something else that they're looking at, they can look at through some of the data for these things?
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Yeah, I mean, I think... Listen, there's a huge challenge and a huge opportunity, right?
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We were very, very early to video, um, and, you know, have, uh, you know, ways for folks to track, uh, their video in real time, just like we do with, you know, the standard, uh, web and standard mobile apps.
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Um, and that's been very, very successful ours, for us, and I think, you know, um, you know, I think video increasingly is a way for folks to, um, y- you know, really, really engage.
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Um, and I think podcasts and audio, you know, are, are places where we're, we're also, um, thinking about, um, because it's not that dissimilar, right?
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You're, you're, you're basically making an integration with, with a player. Um, I think the, the newsletter stuff is an interesting challenge, right?
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Because you've never y- you know, the things like MailChimp and other, uh, HubSpot, and other kind of email martech stacks, right, don't really think in an engagement-focused way or in a reader-focused way.
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Um, and I also think there's an opportunity there where, um, uh, you know, you can actually, uh, you know, you know, almost build a Chartbeat for, for that.
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I think for us, you know, the, the challenge is, right, you gotta... You, you can't do everything, right?
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You, um, you know, I think our vision, which is to enable meaningful stories to thrive, um, you know, has a future for Chartbeat where we're tracking everything on every device, in every country, on every globe, and we're helping, you know, every content creator.
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Um, but the path to get there is a path filled with, uh, choices. Um, and, you know, for us, I think, you know, um, you know, that's, that's the, the thing.
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I mean, I think podcasting is really interesting because a- as you guys know, it's a super competitive world out there, right?
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Everybody with, um, you know, a microphone and, uh, you know, a computer's got a podcast, and very, very few are in the top 10 in Sweden. So there's only 10. I'd just like to... I was gonna say- Oh, damn.
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We've hit top, top 10 now. [laughs] UK and Sweden. Right. Don't know how that happened. Yeah, there's only, there's only 10 that can be the top 10 in Sweden, so- [laughs]...
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you know, I think, um, it's, uh- Sweden, Ireland, UK in the last, in this season has been in top 10, so we've been, we've been pretty impressive ourselves. We've been... I mean, I was blown away, right?
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I mean, you know, listen, when I saw that you were in the top 10 in Sweden, I, I mean, the Swedes know what they're talking about. That's the country of Spotify. That's the country of IKEA, right?
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I mean, you know, I mean- That's a... And that's the land of Giek. It's just where we get our heroes from. Exactly, right? I mean, that's, you know, brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. It's good stuff. It is indeed.
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And so Martin, you have a newsletter as well, and you're into this area more than I am. What, what do you make of all of this?
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Yeah, so I have a daily newsletter, which, uh, is a bit of a, a, a chain around my neck in a way, 'cause I have to... Six days a week I have to, uh, put together this newsletter in the mornings, but, uh, but i- it's fun.
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Uh, and yeah, I do... I, I love to see the, the real time stats, so I use, um, Revue, uh, for my newsletter, which is one of the platforms that you can use to create a newsletter and monetize it.
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And, uh, yeah, no, I really enjoy, um, seeing what people are looking at, uh, and, uh, a- and it helps me refine my product in a way because I know what my readers are interested in.
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Um, I, I do wonder if, if, uh, are you looking at this kind of, uh, uh, newsletters integrating into Chartbeat in a more, uh, uh, tight way in the future? Is that something, uh, you're looking at, Josh?
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Yeah, I think, listen, our first priority is gonna be less the newsletter only folks like you, which I actually think is, you know, fascinating, but to your point, you know, things like Revue and Substack and others have, have, have, you know, been working on that.
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And I think far, you know, w- what we're seeing is that the newsletter is becoming an incredible driver of audience and, uh, especially loyal readers for, um, big publishers and marketers, right?
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So the, the thing that's really, I think, i- i- interesting about that is that, you know,
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w- loyalists love newsletters, and that's, that's an amazing thing because it's so hard to figure out how to write and create, uh, content that is going to really, really capture your loyalists, and that's the opportunity we see in newsletters, right?
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Which is helping folks measure, um, how, uh, newsletters are driving brand loyalty, um, et cetera.
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And you actually, um, you know, d- not to be too, uh, of a salesman, but you can actually, you can track that right now in Chartbeat.
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Um, and, uh, you know, we're very, um, very, very happy about that and been very pleased with, uh, what we've seen from that.
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So what advice would you give or, or tips even to, to smaller publishers or, or independent bloggers? Um, 'cause these are probably not necessarily the sort of people that would use a Chartbeat.
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I think the cost is kind of is, this is... Am I right in saying it's more geared for Chartbeat for, for larger publishers? But, but what about the sort of smaller-sized publications?
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What would your advice be then to them in 2020 to develop some traffic, develop an audience, and, and maybe to monetize? Yeah. Listen, I think it's, it... You know, everybody's a publisher now.
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It's the, it's a, it's a hackneyed and, and trite phrase, but it's really, really true. I mean, I was out to, to dinner with, with some folks yesterday, and somebody was like, "I have a food blog."
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And I was like, "You have a food blog?" And she's like, "Well, it's on Instagram," right? And it's interesting, right?
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Uh, 'cause, you know, the three of us kind of come from the era of, of when blogging was a thing, right?
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[laughs] And, um, it, it's not, it, you know, somebody who has an Instagram where they take pictures of food considers themselves a blogger. I mean, that kind of blew me away, right?
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But I think it's kind of onto something, right? If you're passionate about something, if you've got, um, a, an audience that you wanna hit, right, just get out there and start creating, right?
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And, and I think the one thing I would pick is I would pick an audience. Pick something that you know a lot about, that you're super passionate about, um, and just master it and write everything you can about it, right?
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Because when I think about the, the small publishers and small newsletters that I'm reading, um, and that I'm watching, it's all stuff about things that I'm just a total geek on, right?
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Like, so, you know, I'm a huge Liverpool supporter, right? And, you know, the, the, um, you know, all of the things that I love, um, in Liverpool are tiny independent producers, right? And the Liverpool Echo, right?
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But tiny independent producers who are writing newsletters, um, and the Liverpool Echo is how I get my Liverpool news, right? And I live in Manhattan, right? I don't live on Merseyside.
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Um, so I think number one, pick something you're passionate about, own it, and write it. And number two, take advantage of, you know, all of the platforms that are out there, right?
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You know, I think, you know, Revue, Martin, is a great idea. I'm, I'm a big fan of what Substack is doing in, in newsletters, right? Um, and then make sure you're tracking, right?
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And, uh, you know, we're not that expensive, so give us a call. Um, and, you know, or put some, put some, some GA on it and, you know, just constantly be, um, relentlessly, relentlessly improving, right?
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And, and that's kind of the Chartbeat story too, right? We found something that we were passionate about, which was helping- Uh, folks like you guys, right?
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Like, you know, get your stories out there and get, build a bigger audience.
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And we've just been, you know, hammering at it for, you know, now 11 years, and, you know, we just keep learning new things and having more fun.
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And, and that's, that's what I would tell anybody to do, um, no matter what they wanted to do. So, you know- I, I think, you know, I, I've...
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It's my advice when someone has ever asked me, and it's not, doesn't happen that often. I think people don't trust me. [laughs] Um, but is, it is to own a niche.
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And, and I sort of spiraled into this kind of geeky niche with social media somewhat by accident, but, um, I was enjoying it. And, and then I kind of thought, "Well, I'm gonna do something.
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I'm gonna do it to the best of my ability and be the best person at doing it, as best as I can try to be."
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Um, and I think that that has kind of been a, the difference between trying to, trying to do something that you're maybe not as passionate about.
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And e- e- everything's harder when it's something that you're kind of doing for, for the sake of it, or you think it's what you should be doing.
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So I think there's something to be said for, for finding a niche you can kinda- That's what we were saying last week, weren't we? Uh, with, I guess- Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Martin. Yeah.
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Uh, so we were talking about Facebook earlier as a traffic driver and, uh, and, uh, that kind of relationship between Facebook and publishers. But, uh, it, it goes deeper than that, doesn't it?
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Because, uh, there's been a bit of a tortured relationship there between publishers and Facebook with things like Instant Articles, which were the big thing, and then they weren't the big thing anymore.
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And, uh, there's this, uh, new news aggregation offering they're gonna be launching, and they've just hired a, uh, a Fox News producer to work on that, which has raised a few eyebrows in some quarters.
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Uh, so there's still this kind of shaky relationship maybe between the two. Uh, how do you see that shaping up in 2020? You know, I...
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Listen, it's an election year in the United States, [laughs] so, uh- Oh, it's always a good year for the world. [laughs] Exactly. So, so I think...
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Listen, I think, um, uh, I think that publishers and Facebook are gonna have...
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I mean, there's a, you know, big article today about, um, is the Trump campaign, you know, far ahead of everybody else when it comes to Facebook.
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And, and I see the, I- I see publishers actually, um, you know, returning to what they're good at, which is I think they're gonna spend the year covering Facebook, right?
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I think they're gonna spend the year covering Facebook and covering its role in the election and almost playing a watchdog. Um, and I think that actually will probably make Facebook uncomfortable, right?
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Because I think Facebook is ve- very, very good and very, very, um, you know, professional when it comes to having the relationships that they've been having for the last couple years, which is, you know, traffic and, you know, building audience and whatever.
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And now I think publishers are gonna do what they do, which is, you know, is a... I don't, I don't know where it was, but I saw it today.
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There's a big article about, you know, is Trump really far ahead on Facebook and why, right? And what's that about? And, you know, um, th- that's what I think the relationship's gonna be.
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And then in 2021, uh, when, you know, things get back to normal, if they do- [laughs] Good luck... um, you know, then, uh, then I think we'll see, um, you know, kind of a retrenchment.
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I- i- if I was Facebook, I would be, um, much more concerned about Washington, Brussels, and, uh, now that London is no longer Brussels, London, um, than I would be about, uh, you know, the publishers.
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I mean, I think that's where their big, that's where the big, um, unease is gonna come from, uh, over the course of the next, you know, years.
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Uh- And a- as a citizen of the, of the US and, uh, the, the motherland of, of Facebook, I- I'm intrigued.
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Can, can you tell me what, what's your personal opinion of the situation with Facebook for, for the year ahead in terms of all the things it's embroiled in and the risks to its business or the opportunities to its business?
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You know, how, what's your assessment of Zuckerberg and Facebook for the coming year? Yeah. Listen, I, I, I have actually a little bit less criticism of Facebook than I do of some of our largest advertisers.
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I think that, like, you know, Facebook has been very, very clear. I don't particularly agree with some of their stances in terms of, you know, content moderation.
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I actually think, you know, that if they, you know, wanted to put, you know, a thousand engineers on it, they probably could solve a lot, a, a problem a lot easier than, you know...
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Um, I don't know if you guys have seen Casey Newton's reporting on The Verge, but what they've done with, you know, uh, moderators is, you know- Hmm... a little, a little nutty. To me, it's the advertisers, right?
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The, the advertisers are what create the, you know, billions and billions of dollars of revenue. And the reality is that a lot of America's biggest advertisers just don't care, right?
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And, and as much as they wanna participate in a debate around, um, you know, around what should and shouldn't be on Facebook when they're, you know, having dinner, uh, in their homes, right?
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They're still spending, you know, tens of millions of dollars on the, on the platform. And, you know, Facebook is very, very explicit, right? Again, if I was running it, I would probably take a different stance, right?
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We, we refuse to accept, uh, we have a very high standard at Chartbeat in terms of what clients we accept and we don't accept, but Zuckerberg's been very explicit.
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And still, the advertisers who, you know, who, um, uh, you know, create a lot of the revenue, right, they don't really seem to care.
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And, um, that goes for everything from, you know, small companies, right, um, to the biggest advertisers in the world who, you know, literally spend tens of millions of dollars.
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And that's the way, if you wanna send a message that you don't like the content that's on Facebook or YouTube or anywhere, right, that's the way to send it, right? And, and that, that's where my frustration lies. Yeah.
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I just think F- Facebook f- is, is still a bit like Teflon, isn't it?
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Te- you know, chuck anything at it, and it, and the share price seems to still creep up, and, uh, and the value of the company and the interest in it, it, uh, from a business point of view, doesn't seem to falter too much.
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Although, there have been signals of, you know, uh, plateauing of growth in, in some of the, uh, monthly active users on some platforms.
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And, and they, they, they, I don't think it can get much more spotlight than any kind of company k- in the world because they've got it all. They're hogging it with their, you know, involvement in all these court cases.
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It's just, you know, what is gonna be that tipping point, and, uh, is it gonna happen this year? I don't know.
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I just, I think it's gonna be another year that Facebook's gonna dominate, and, uh, they'll slide through it somehow. I don't know. Martin, do you think the same or? Yeah.
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I mean, I, I, as John was saying, it, it, the fact it's an election year, uh, kind of means there'll be lots of scrutiny of them.
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But at the same time, they are such a key information provider to America and to, more importantly, Americans, uh, that, uh, yeah, the, you can't really mess with them too much because so many people rely on them.
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And, uh, they will cont- well, no matter what happens, they will continue to make a lot of money.
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Which is the important thing for the stock market, which is why their, their, their stock price isn't being affected, and, uh, why, why all of that continues to go great guns.
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Uh, and, uh, I think depending on the result of the election, uh, I think that will depend- that will help influence, uh, the future of the company in terms of, uh, you know, does Trump get another, get, get another term, for example.
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Uh, that, that will make some people incredibly angry. Uh, but [laughs] th- but then, uh, but then maybe make, uh, make Facebook...
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I mean, Facebook have been very, you know, uh, side, on side, talking to a lot of people in the Trump camp, and, uh, they know how to play the political ga- game. So I think that's the important thing to remember.
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They know how to play the political game. So I think it's gonna take a lot to shift, uh, Facebook from their, their position of dominance. A lot. Yeah, no, I think so.
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I don't think it's gonna be any, uh, any dramatic movement in that front, uh, other than what you've said. Continual spotlight on, on Facebook and its antics.
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There, there was something else that I was just recording, but I, I can't bring it to mind, so see if I can think before the end. Um, but we- we're coming up to the end of chatting to you, uh, John.
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It's been fascinating stuff, as I, as I predicted and expected it would be.
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Um, but, uh, I wanted to leave enough time to have a bit more of a, an open question about kind of something of the future really of content consumption.
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'Cause one of the things that we've heard from, uh, the likes of, um, Andrew Bosworth, who was on the show, who's head of AR and VR at, um, Facebook, and, and Uncle Jim- Never heard of him... never heard of him.
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Some random- Never read... Does, does he ever tweet? I've never, never, uh- He, he likes to write memos-... never heard of the guy... I've found. Like to- Yeah, see, see, I think he's written internal memos too. Yeah.
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I think I've... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which then leaks very easily. Yeah, right.
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Anyway, he, he was talking to us about the fact that, um, you know, some of the tech that Facebook's invested in or owns now, you know, can do things like, you know, read, almost like read your, um, thoughts because it can detect the electrical nerve impulse signals in your body and, and then produce emails for you if you're thinking about doing it rather than having to manually type it.
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But then there's also that, you know, they're pushing all of the big tech companies like Apple and, uh, and Google and Facebook and others are, are pushing, uh, uh, AR spectacles or some sort of AR kind of, uh, head sp- um, head, um, frame unit some sort of thing, uh, and virtual reality further down the line even more.
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You know, how the, how's that gonna work out for like content consumption and just the way that we live our lives, you know, reading news and engaging in news and, and thing, and content in general?
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Yeah, listen, I, I, you know, m- your guess is as good as mine. The, the thing that I
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am very, very confident in, you know, there's a, there's a little bit of the like woe is me ar- around the news media around the current cycle. But, you know, I, I think if you go back, I'm a, a huge, I mean,
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huge media geek, right? And, and I, I went back and read, um, Katharine Graham, who f- whose family owned The Washington Post. I went back and read her memoir, Personal History, which I highly recommend folks read.
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And, you know, the '60s and '70s, it wasn't so easy to be a media company either, right? But the one thing that was constant was that people wanted to make sense of their world, right?
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They wanted to know, you know, both from a news standpoint, right, what the president did last night, right, what the score of the game was last night.
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They wanted to know opinion about, you know, what kind of leading minds were thinking, and that con- that's not going away, right?
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In 50 years, we're gonna need professionals to help us figure out, right, how to make sense of our world. And, um, y- you know, I, I'm not sure if that's gonna be, uh, VR and AR.
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I, I hope for all of our sake that, um, you know, we won't get so nauseous when we put VR goggles on anymore. I don't, I don't- [laughs] But we, I, I'm pretty confident that'll happen in 50 years.
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But the, uh, I'm even more confident that in whatever format, folks are gonna want the services that journalists and editors and, and folks are, are, are providing.
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Um, you know, and I think that one thing that is, that the internet and, and tech will continue to do is make everybody able to be that kinda creator, right?
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Because one of the things that we've learned in, in the era of the last 25 years is that there's just a lot of really smart people out there who have a lot of interesting things to say, and we can learn from them, and it doesn't have to be the same 25, you know, white men in a cigarette-soaked room like it was in Katharine Graham's, uh, you know, uh, biography, and I think, or memoir.
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And I think that's to me the takeaway, right?
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That if we can keep getting people out there creating in all sorts of interesting ways, um, you know, we'll figure out a, you know, if you create it, we'll figure out a way to measure it and give you feedback.
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Let's put it that way.
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I, I'll tell you what, I, I've been speaking more and more increasingly to, um, sort of teenagers and, and younger people who have, you know, friends of my daughter who's only nine and then, and my son and the really young children, and the, what, it, it's amazing how confident they are.
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They're like ex- tr- they're all seemingly very confident, believe they can change the world, and, uh, don't, you know, don't care for the old structures of how to go through like v- you know, university and, and having to do a job.
365
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It's like they'll make their job. They'll d- you know, make something they like, and then that'll be the thing they're gonna make money out of.
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Uh, you know, and it's so entrepreneurial, and it's quite inspiring, and I'm just intrigued to see how they will impact the, the world. I don't know if you've got kids, John, but that's- I just hope they don't get jaded.
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Let me just say that 'cause, uh, 'cause that kind of optimism could, could improve things massively in the world. We're their parents, so we, it's our job to make sure they don't get jaded, right?
368
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It's our job to make sure that we, uh, you know, we invest and make them dream and hope, right? 'Cause that's, that's all there is, right? Uh, I think it could be more to, to, to...
369
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It'd be good to have more Gretas in the world is all I can say. [laughs] That's what I think about that. Anyway, um, it's been great having you- Well, you are, you're, you're top 10 in Sweden.
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I mean, let's- Top 10 in Sweden... let's be clear. That's, that's probably why. That's exactly the, the link. Exactly, right. I mean, right. [laughs] Right. I mean- Yeah... is she a listener? I mean, I, I don't know.
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She is now. Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna make it happen. Right. Um, John, it's been amazing.
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We could've chatted to you probably for another 50-odd minutes and, uh, and still had more to ask about.
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Um, but it's been great, um, chatting to you, and I think people have got a, a good insight into, uh, the world of, uh, geeky social media traffic for publishers and, and more beyond.
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Uh, thank you so much for, for coming on. The pleasure was all mine, guys. Thanks for having me. Thanks, John. Thank you. It's time now for quick hits.
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Here's Matt with tests, updates, and more from social media companies. They'll make you feel, they'll make you feel, they'll make you feel like a natural woman, woman. Or maybe they'll just make you feel mighty real.
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I don't know. Matt Like my mouth is just hitting the floor- [laughs]... with absolute cringe at the moment. I do not know what to say. Your parents know what you do.
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Do, you know, do they hear this sort of stuff that you're doing? It's crazy. Um- I kind of get paid for this. I don't know how. Ugh, insane. Anyway, it's getting worse every week, I'm sorry. Okay, so what have we got?
378
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Um, Google and, um, just today as we're recording this, um, they've sort of launched a kind of like a TikTok-y type app.
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It's really, it's a short form video app, but they're saying it sp- um, specifically focuses on the sort of creativity and d- DIY area.
380
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Uh, and it's come out of Google's sort of experimental kind of products and apps area, area, um, 120. So that's new today. So the name of this app is called Tangi, we think. It's T-A-N-G-I.
381
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Tangi, Tangi, something like that. Hopefully we'll know clearer next week on that one.
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Um, TikTok have, um, started testing their dark mode a few, um, with a few more people in their latest beta on iOS, so people who like dark mode will get that soon.
383
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Uh, Pinterest also have launched a new AR feature, so you can try on makeup for a bit like the ones we've seen before on YouTube and some other places, um, but they're gonna start doing a bit more of that by the looks of it on the AR side of things with Pinterest.
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Instagram shared a story, uh, earlier on this week when we're recording where it was talking about all those classic questions that you have around, you know, does the algorithm favor this, and what happens with comment pods, and how do you get verified, and what happens if you do this?
385
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I've been told it helps you get verified. It doesn't involve contacting me. Um- [laughs]... is, uh...
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That was the story, but you can find the details of it 'cause, um, it's been g- really helpfully saved by Social Media Today's article on it, which we'll put in the episode notes.
387
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Uh, LinkedIn, and not, doesn't always do exciting things, but sometimes very useful things, is merging its Elevate, uh, employee advocacy toolkit, um, it's called product, with company pages to, uh, make them kind of work together better, and I think they realize the competition there for that space is, uh, pretty intense, and also they have a lot to give by giving some of this stuff away to get them, um, to getting it being used.
388
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So I can see that being a smart move. Uh, good Instagram account to follow is, uh, Ins- uh, Influencers In The Wild.
389
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If you go to Instagram and search that, if you haven't seen that this week, then that's, well, you'll see. It's good.
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Uh, Joanna Stern from the Wall Street Journal, she's done a, an amazing, uh, TikTok explainer, kind of 101 video, which is, uh, just, you know, plain and simple and, uh, as you'd want it to be helpful.
391
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So, uh, go and have a look at that.
392
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New Instagram share mentions in stories feature, so in your create mode you can now, um, there's an at symbol kind of button for your story which allows you to share any recent mentions of you in other people's stories.
393
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Uh, you can do this in other ways on Instagram, of course, but this is just another way to do it and then to some design spin on it, I guess, in terms of how it's presented within that, uh, feature.
394
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And then finally, the Twitter DM reactions. Uh, so this is something that was kind of at the cusp of when we were doing our last show.
395
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Um, so you can now react to direct messages on, in the app or on desktop and a bit like Facebook's where you have the kind of different emojis. Uh, there's a selection for you to pick.
396
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So Twitter has got on the emoji reactions as well. There we go. And I certainly feel mighty real now. So there we go. [laughs] Oh, God. Jesus. We're never gonna get sponsored again.
397
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Anyway, Martin, who have we got on the show next week? Next week we'll be talking TikTok because we're gonna be joined by Inam Mahmood, who is in charge of EMEA commercial partnerships at, yes, TikTok.
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God, I'm glad to have someone from TikTok on the show. Everyone's asking me questions about it. I'm hoping I'm gonna get some answers- Ooh... there for me to give to other people and present they are mine.
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Um, anyway, uh, if you haven't done already, hit subscribe in your podcast app of choice so that you get notified as soon as the next episode is available, which will be in a week from now.
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Geek Out with Matt Navarra is a Big Revolution production. Find out more at bigrevolution.net/podcasts. And we also have a daily newsletter which you can subscribe to to keep up with the latest tech and media news.
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Uh, each weekday edition also has a big dollop of analysis on a current trend or story from my fair typing fingers too. Visit bigrevolution.net/newsletter for more information and to sign up.
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You can find me on Twitter as @martinsfp. And I'm @mattnavarra on Twitter, so don't forget to tell people about the podcast.
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The more people that, um, get to listen to it means we can keep on doing it, so help us out there.
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And of course, you can join the Facebook group, The Social Media Geek Out, on Facebook, where everyone is discussing all of this stuff and lots and lots more, and some great memes. Absolutely. So I'll see you soon.
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Goodbye, geeks. [upbeat music]