Sunny Strasburg | Healing From the Inside Out – Rewire Anxiety Through Body and Mind

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I have anxiety about if I'm going to get a
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ride like an uber or something, I'll have a lot
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of anxiety or I did, like if I was going
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to miss my ride or if I was going to
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be late. And I thought, this is irrational. And my
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husband's an amazing IFS coach, and he worked with me
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on that, and we went back to the origin and
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I had this part that was trapped in the past.
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When I was six years old, my mom got stuck
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at work and forgot to pick me up from school
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and I couldn't figure out how to walk home. She
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eventually came and it was you know, it was really
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like twenty minutes, but to a six year old, it
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just felt like an eternity and I was freaking out.
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And it was so interesting because when he helped me
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unburden that part, that anxiety was released around that and
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I noticed the next time I ordered an uber, I
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was much more calm about it.
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Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Mala,
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and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of
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authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from
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leading experts to explore trauma recovery mindfuluence practices, positive psychology,
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and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This
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helping you find alignment with the person you are always
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meant to be. Let's get started. What if transformation isn't
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just about thinking differently but feeling differently. Science shows us
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that true change happens when we align not just our minds,
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but also the neural networks in our hearts and guts.
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This heart mind connection is the key to deeper healing, resilience,
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All Access, membership and community, a space designed to help
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Greater clarity and purpose.
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With over one thousand hours of transformational teachings specifically curated
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and experts in neuroplasticity, all sharing powerful tools to help
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you shift your mindset and heartset, regulate your emotions, and
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unlock your full potential. You'll also gain unlimited access to
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If you're ready to step into a more heart centered,
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Clip the link to learn more and start your journey today.
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My name is doctor Fleet Mall your co host for
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the session, and I'm really thrilled to be here today
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with friend and colleague Sonny Strasbourg.
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Welcome, Sonny, Hi Fleet, So great to see you today.
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Thank you, great to see you.
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We get to do this periodically and have these really
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incredible conversations, so I'm really looking forward. So Alans hasn't
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ask somebody to encapsulate their life story in a minute
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or two, which but we got a lot to cover today,
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But I would like to stop with a little bit
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of your origin story of how you got into being
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a therapist, how you got oriented in particular around IFS
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and archetypal psychology and EMDR and then also psychaic therapy.
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I know it could be a long story, but maybe
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there's something about the highlights. So what took you in
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that direction? Wow?
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Okay, yes, it's so funny. I think in life, when
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you look back and it thinks, it seems like your
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life had all these dispirit unrelated pieces when they were happening,
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but then you look back and everything was just meant
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to be. I was originally an artist and really interested
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in art, and worked in video games as an animator,
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and that just felt empty to me. So I decided
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to go back to school for therapy, and I was
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really interested in Carl Jung because archetypal psychology was very
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akin to my art. I went back to school and
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I was fascinated that I really loved being a therapist
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in my internships. I was so surprised by that. I
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was really actually going to use it to do art
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therapy and improve my artistic skills. But I really wanted
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something with meaning. I found a lot of meaning working
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with people. And I'll curate the story more to how
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I got into working with trauma and fear and anxiety,
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you know, for this confidence. My first internship, it was
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at a drug and alcohol rehab center and we had
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a lot of veterans. You know, we know now this
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is you know, two decades ago. We know now that
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you know addiction is often caused by trauma, but at
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the time that wasn't really thought of that way. And
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I was leading, I was the group therapist. I was
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leading a group therapy session and there was this big
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guy in the group therapy. There was this big vet,
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really muscular and huge guy, tough guy, and there was
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a rainstorm outside and there was this huge clap of
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lightning outside, thunder, and he ran from his chair across
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the room and jumped behind the couch and was cowering
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behind the couch, trembling. I had never seen anything like that.
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I didn't have a lot of experience, and I went
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over and tried to talk him through it and say
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you're fine. I'm trying to have logic with the guy,
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and he was just in a freeze response. I didn't
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know what that meant. I'd been taught archetypal psychology and
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kind of cognitive behavioral psychology, and I realized at that moment,
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talking about trauma does not heal trauma. Talking about anxiety
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does not help. Telling someone to calm down never helps.
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So that set me on this mission to figure out
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how to work with this. I knew something was happening
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in the body, so I started studying with Besil vander Kok,
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got interested in EMDR, got certified in EMDR. That led
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me to get interested in internal family systems and certified
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in internal family systems. And all the time I was
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interested in psychedelics because I was doing my own work
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in Latin America and saw this huge transformation in my
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own trauma story and anxiety story. Right, So really a
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reorientation for me around understanding where the anxiety was coming from,
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soothing my nervous system. So the minute I could combine
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these things EMDR ifs and psychedelics therapy, I did. I
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got on the train pretty early trained in psychedelics and
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ketymine and then started training other clinicians and ketemine assisted psychotherapy,
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and now I use that technique to work with my clients.
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There's a little bit of my origin story, but that
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moment with that veteran was so pivotal in my career
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about wanting to understand, Wow, this is beyond talking about right.
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Yeah, and it's just took you in a somatic direction.
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It's very best of aanaical is seminal book.
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The body keeps the.
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Score and EMDR and other somatic practices. So I want
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to talk about psychic therapy as a treatment for psychic
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assistant therapy as a treatment for peering anxiety or anxiety specifically.
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But I'm also wondering just the somatic piece. So when
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we talk about obviously this summer, the title of the
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summit rewiring peer and Anxiety, So we're coming at it
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from a neuroscience neurophysiological perspective, but we'll be coming at
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through various perspectives in this conference. And you can think
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about this in neurophysiological terms, you can think of it
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neurochemical terms, you can think of it in purely psychological terms.
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You know my understanding of IFS and the parts work,
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it's kind of a psychological model. EMDR is very specifically
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somatic things like EFT tapping or very specifically to sematic
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peerle in a bessel anicles. Trauma because very specifically somatic.
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So I wondered how you integrate the parts work with
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a somatic focus. Maybe that will go there first, and
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then then I want to talk to you more about
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psychoic therapy and anxiety.
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Yeah, I appreciate that trauma is held in the body
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in different areas of the body. So when we start
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working with internal family systems, And I don't know if
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I should give an overview a little bit about how
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internal family system.
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Yeah, yeah, if you played just a very brief kind
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of yeah, to understand the parts, and people.
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Aren't familiar with parts work and so forth.
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Yeah. So the idea is that behind everything we have
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this self energy with a capital S, calm, confident, not
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really attached anything, just as benevolent well being, right, compassionate
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well being. And layered on top of this are parts
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break down into subcategories. We have parts that are managers
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and they kind of keep the show on the road.
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They're very proactive. They want us to normal to the
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outside world. They want to keep things under control. We
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have extreme parts that are called firefighters, and those protectors
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are parts that just want to get us away from pain.
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So they do things like get us addicted to substances
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in extreme ways. It could even become suicidal. They just
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want to escape from pain. Okay. Behind the protector system
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are what's called exiles. And exiles are young parts of
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the system that hold hurt and hold trauma, and the
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protectors protect the exiles. They keep them kind of tucked
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away so we don't have to think about them and
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feel them. But the exiles are constantly trying to let
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themselves be known, and so they percolate up, often at
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inopportune times, trying to get us to pay attention to
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the pain. And exiles can be the parts that hold anxiety.
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Sometimes the managers can be the parts the whold anxiety.
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And so when we start and open the process of IFS,
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we start with the somatic experience. Where do you notice
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that in or around your body? And it's fascinating because
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each of these parts hold a somatic expression of physiological
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expression in the body. So interestingly, protectors are usually up
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in the upper body or in the head, and eggsalve
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they're usually in the lower body. This is really interesting
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kind of how they're oriented and held inside the system.
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And people will feel a physiological shift as we unburden
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those parts and allow them to be more connected to
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that self energy. Right, So the whole IFS process is
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really formed around the somatic experience and checking in with
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the body again and again to make sure that the
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somatic experience is tracking with the unburdening of the parts.
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Yeah, and I've witnessed both stixports and you doing iopacy
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and retreats and so forth with clients and with participants,
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and yeah, there's often that checking where are you're feeling
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that in the body and so forth, and that does
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help people really connect with the part. And I've been
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involved some other parts work, like voice dialogue and so forth,
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And there's no question that when people are connecting with
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a voice or part and something is coming to and
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it's very clear, it's very unique. It's almost like they're
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channeling something. It's very clear people are connecting with something.
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And I know Dick talks about that we have all
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these parts, not through some kind of fragmentation that happened,
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but we're actually born with some constellation of parts already.
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Now I'm open to that possibility. I have a little
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hard time wrapping my mind around it and relating it
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to other systems of understanding, you know, how we got
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here and what we arrived with and all that. But
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it's certainly a possibility. But so from what you're saying, then,
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bringing this back to a neurophysiological perspective, would you say
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that the parts we have would have correlated neural networks,
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you know, would be represented in our brain and neural
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architecture in the same way habits are.
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For example, it's a great idea, and yes I do so.
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I'm thinking about a study that PEGANI did with EMDR,
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but this applies to ifs as well. They did a
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functional MRI scan of someone's brain who has trauma. When
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you are in a trauma response, or if you're in
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active you're being actively traumatized, the brain lights up exactly
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is in the same way. So if you have unmetabolized
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trauma and you think about the traumatic event or a
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trigger happens, your brain lights up just like it's happening
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right now. The frontal lobes are shut off, so that's
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your higher thinking, Broca's area, the language center shut off.
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The limbic system is activated. This is a fight flight
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or freeze, and the right amygdala is activated. That's your
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smoke detector. There's something wrong, there's something wrong. There's something wrong.
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They did eight sessions of EMDR and then rescanned the
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brain and had the person recall the same traumatic memory,
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and the brain lit up just like it would normally
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light up with a normal memory. Frontal lobes are online,
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Broca's area is online, right amygdala quiet, limbic system quiet.
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So if you think about that through the IFS lens,
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when those parts are activated and burdened, the brain's going
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to light up like that front lobe shut off. Broca's
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area is shut off, right a migduala on. You unburden
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that part, similar to the EMDR process, you unburned that
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part scan the brain.
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Again.
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I haven't seen a study on this, but I would
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assume because the people behave the same way. They come
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out of it and they say, you know what, it's
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okay now. That was then, that happened a long time ago,
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and this is now, and it's not happening right now.
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The definition of trauma is that we think things are
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happening right now. When we're anxious, we're scanning our environment
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for something horrible happening right now that may not is
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probably not happening right now. So your brain is lighting
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up in a specific way. That part has its own
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neuronal network that's lighting you up in a certain way.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah?
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It does some fascinating and you know you kind of
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think of the parts. We have memories, we have belief systems.
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All of these are represented and impactful in our neural architecture.
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And I think it's helpful.
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You know, sometimes we want to have a very so
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much simplistic mechanical view of the brain, like a circuit board,
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and that there's this part, maybe this part of the brain,
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I mean, but it's more like the brain is this holistic, interdependent,
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energetic orchestra going on, and it does have circuits, and
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you can see the mechanical nature of it. And then
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when different things happen, whether it's a trauma that gets
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triggered or a memory or perhaps one of these burdened parts,
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then that influences the whole rest of the brain the
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way it shows up. So you almost have a different
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brain online, right, And it was kind of the way
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you were describing what would light up on a punctional MRI.
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It's really interesting to think about that. And parts certainly
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seem to be very much related to memory, or they
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hold memories, or they're related to memories. And I know
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in doctor Choper's book quant Them Body, he associates most
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of our suffering with memory. It's bostically memory is the
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foundation of our suffering. It's our identification with memories that
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creates most of our suffering, right, So just really interesting
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to think about.
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All of that.
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So, how does psycholic therapy, your experience with kedemine assist
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in psychotherapy and integrating that with things like EMDR, the
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archetypal view or internal family systems? What are the mechanisms
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of healing there? Then you talked about an ifs unburdening
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these wounded parts, of these exiled parts and so forth,
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which can allows and allows a reintegration or an inner
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harmony of so forth that maybe then gives us more
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access a self of the capitalist. So how does the
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psychiatic experience facilitate that?
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That's great. Yeah, when I was really early and getting
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trained in ketemine therapy, I think it was like twenty eighteen,
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I was thinking about I was super interested because they
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were talking about how ketemine was impacting people, and I thought,
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that's exactly like how EMDR worked. So I looked online
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and found everything I could possibly find about research studies
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on what parts of the brain were lit up and
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not let up during ketamine and EMDR, and it was
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crazy fleet they totally overlap. So then I thought, I
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bet if you combine these things together, you could really
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potentiate them, And so I started using EMDR really early
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on with ketymine therapy for my clients, and I was
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seeing incredible results, like twenty EMDR sessions in one hour
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with the ketamine right, same thing with IFS combining IFS.
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I was calling it working in the Golden hour. When
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people were coming out of kedemene experiences, their brains were
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fluid and plastic. I could sense that they were really open,
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and I knew, Okay, if I potentiate what's happening right
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now with really anchoring, with these trauma informed methods, we're
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going to get some good results. And I was seeing
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incredible results in my practice later, much later, just recently,
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I read this research study by a phenomenal researcher, Gule Dolan,
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who discovered that when we're infants, we have a very
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plastic a lot of plasticity in our brains and we
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can learn things really quickly. We have a lot of flexibility,
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and new neurons can be built together in wire together, right.
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And she discovered that one of the only things that
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opens critical learning windows again are psychedelics. The way that
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it down regulates that default mode network and allows the
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brain plasticity and the hours and days after there's so
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much potential that's called critical learning window we can go
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in and make change. So this thing that I was
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calling the Golden hour is actually these critical learning windows
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that open up. So if you with a practitioner, I
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mean this underscores how important it is to be with
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someone that knows how to properly utilize this very magical
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time help you rewire your brain in the right way
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so that you can have that enduring positive impact. So
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I think I really see a lot of synergy working
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with psychedelics with really good methods like IFS and EMDR
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and archetypal psychology, the hero heroines journey, right, these methods
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are really helpful. Somatic interventions are helpful to I.
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Want to continue talking about.
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You know, these methodologies and tools for healing, both that
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one that are employed by clinicians and a client could
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benefit PUMP, but also maybe some tools people can apply
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on their own. But first of all, maybe we could
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back up from a minute and what's your understanding of
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anxiety itself. We know anxiety can be trauma related and
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so forth, but when we talk about anxiety, what are
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we actually talking about? And it seems like anxiety can
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be experienced mentally, emotionally, It can certainly be experienced physically, somatically.
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Sometimes we can even get into almost kind of existential anxiety.
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So when you think about anxiety and how you have
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clients that are experiencing anxiety and talking about their anxiety
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and then you're in the process of healing, what are
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we really talking about when we say anxiety.
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I think it's similar to what we're talking about with trauma,
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where there's this you know, if you look at it
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through the IFS lens, there's a part that's carrying this physiological, psychological,
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emotional burden that something terrible is impending, is going to happen,
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even if the situation that we're in right now isn't
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the case. So there's some kind of maladaptive learned behavior
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that's scanning the environment for danger. That right, amigdala is
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just firing constantly, and there are many ways that you
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can work on that. You know, when you look at
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you know, psychotropic medication, what those do is just force
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shut off that right a middila, Right, So you're still
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actually you're still having all the cortisol, Like your cortisol
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levels aren't exchanged when you're on SSRIs. You're still having
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that signal, but your body's ability to respond to that
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signal is blunted, right, So you know, there's ways like that,
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or you can approach it in ways like IFS, where
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you're going back to the origin of where that anxiety
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began and working with that part. I'll give you a
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small example. I have anxiety about if I'm going to
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get a ride, like an uber or something. I'll have
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a lot of anxiety, or I did would have a
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lot of anxiety coming up about like if I was
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going to miss my ride, or if I was going
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to be late, or I thought, this is irrational. I
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have an irrational fear about that. And my husband's an
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amazing IFS coach, and he worked with me on that
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and we went back to the origin. And I had
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this part that was trapped in the past. When I
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was six years old, my mom got stuck at work
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and forgot to pick me up from school and I
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was outside waiting for her to pick up from school
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and she didn't come, and I couldn't figure out how
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to walk home. I was so scared and couldn't figure
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out how to walk home if she eventually came, and
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it was you know, it was really like twenty minutes,
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but to a six year old, it just felt like
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an eternity and I was freaking out. And it was
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so interesting because when he helped me unburden that part,
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that anxiety was released around that and I noticed the
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next time I ordered an uber I was much more
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calm about it. And so the understanding and IFS is
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you can go in and unburden those parts that are
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carrying those little little T traumas right up to big
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T traumas that caused the anxiety in the first place.
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Right now, of course, I think that we can just
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physiologically be born into a physiological system that's more prone
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to anxiety or more prone to depression. I think that
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we can just have that hardware that's kind of wired
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for that, but we can really work on those parts
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that can amplify that, you know, predisposition.
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Yeah, fascinating, And you know, like that a memory, a
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six year old's memory, a specific incident memory, could be
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still impacting someone many decades later as a kind of
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anxiety that comes up that they experienced physically, emotionally, mentally
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and so forth.
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It's real.
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And I think what with people suffering from anxiety, often
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people tell them, you know, well, it's just all in
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your mind, which may be true on some level or whatever,
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but they're having a real experience. There's a no, I'm
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feeling it my body. This is really you don't understand
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this is actually happening in my body.
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Right, I'm feeling this. Don't tell me I'm not feeling this.
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Right, that's the worst thing to tell someone. Calm down,
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you're fired. That is, though not helpful.
401
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I think, you know, we do know something about the
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neurophysiology of memory, but there's still a lot of mystery.
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There's a lot of we don't really totally understand how
404
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memory works neurophysiologically. So the idea of how this memory
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gets carried forward across three, four or five decades to
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show up as you know, specific anxiety around in your
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case waiting for an uger. Right, it's a little mysterious
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and maybe gets into you know, into the quantum level
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and outside of space and time considerations, where it whears
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time collapses.
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Right, clee.
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Let's talk just for a second about how mind blowing
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it is to work with ifs, because when I first
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learned it, I thought, oh, it's like, we'll just do
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this little kind of fantasy with our clients and have
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them like, imagine, this has nothing to do with imagination.
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It's so wild. You'll go back, people go back and
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contact these parts and the part will say, no, no, that's
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not even right. Let me tell you what actually happened.
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They're looping. It feels like they're looping in some dimension
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of reality, stuck back in time, holding these memories. And
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all the time my clients are shocked by what they
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find back there, and it makes total sense to them.
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And then the real test is that they feel that
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just once they're unburdened, they don't go back to that,
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they don't have those feelings anymore. It's so remarkable to me.
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I'm surprised all the time about what we find in
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the past that is just waiting for some and to
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come back and help them. And I have no idea
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how it works. In the memory networks and psychedelics, it's
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even more profound because these memories can come back in
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this total visceral, very detailed way that when they're remembered,
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it's with crystal clarity, and it's more real than real,
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and it's just like where was that? Like that neuron's
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just living in the back of my mind and somehow,
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you know, that gets lit up and I can remember
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all the saliency of this memory, you know, comes right
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back to me. It's really interesting.
439
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Yeah, we don't even understand really how we have this
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complete sensory experience that we have in the moment of
441
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any given thing, much less you know, recall. Right, So,
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and you know, it does really beg the question if
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there isn't some quantum level of brain activity that's really
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beyond space and time that we're dealing with here kind.
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Of points too. I think with anxiety that some of
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us who are really sensitive to our environment are picking
447
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up on energy that's outside of them. You don't mean
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that in a woo way at all. I mean, like
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right now in the political system, there's a lot of
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tension and anxiety just everywhere in all the microfacial expressions
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and interactions with all the people, and some of us
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are highly sensitive the world around us. It's like that
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GDA Christian Murdy quote, it's no measure of sanity to
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be sane in an insane culture. I think we really
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need to listen to when we have this anxiety, to
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listen to that and pay attention because maybe it's not
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about making that go away. Maybe it's telling us that
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we need to make some changes in the world right
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outside of ourselves, to help us live in more conducive
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to how humans are meant to.
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Live right Probably even the least sensitive. And I don't
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mean to say that in a prijority word, but maybe
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some of us are very resilient, or maybe some of
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us are pretty armored up, or we have fixed skin, whatever,
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but we don't think of ourselves certainly not hyper sensitive
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or even that science of people. But everybody I'm sure
467
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is experiencing a lot of uncertainty right now. I mean,
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just uncertainty about all the levers that are being pulled
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and what's happening with the economy's promises of it's going
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to get better, but it's getting worse, and you know,
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and what's you know, dismantling the pederal government. Whatever I
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thinks about any of this politically, it's not the point
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to just change the background of that is all this
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change with AI and how fast things are moving. I mean,
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you would almost have to be on some kind of
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relaxant or some kind of suppressive drugs and not be
477
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experiencing some level of anxiety uncertainty today.
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00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.720
Absolutely, and what's happening Addiction rates are exploding through the roof.
479
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.240
Why Because we live in a culture right now that's upsetting,
480
00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:32.240
that's anxiety producing, that's trauma producing, that's socially isolating. We
481
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.000
don't live in a very humane time right now, and
482
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.359
I think our bodies are signaling us to pay attention
483
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:39.119
to that and change something right.
484
00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:41.039
So there's a lot of self medication going on of
485
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:44.160
all kinds. So I want to explore that for a moment,
486
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:48.640
the connection between anxiety that is related to parts or
487
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.000
related to past traumas and so forth, and then kind
488
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.000
of environmental anxiety that may have to do with what
489
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:57.200
it's actually going on in the world and how those interact,
490
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:59.880
whether what's going on in the world could be triggering
491
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:04.319
underlying anxieties that we have from past experiences in past trauma.
492
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:07.160
I love to talk about this. I think about three
493
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.519
things within the self, between you and me, and then
494
00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.559
beyond our experience and our collective. The way that I
495
00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:19.680
understand working with IFS, the clearest goal is to create incredible,
496
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:24.559
secure attachment to ourself and all of our parts internally,
497
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:28.960
for our internal ecosystem to feel completely safe within itself.
498
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:32.079
That's a really important first step. The minute we start
499
00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:34.559
to do that, we start to project that outward. That
500
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:39.200
self energy then starts emanating outward and parts attract parts,
501
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.559
and self energy attracts self energy, so then we start
502
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:47.680
engaging in that. So within secure ecosystem between two people,
503
00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.319
we start to have this coherence with one another, this coregulation,
504
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.839
this self energy with each other. So we start creating
505
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.759
secure attachment, and then we can take that and then
506
00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:59.960
create communities of coherence. My friend Date Hagen talks about
507
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.160
islands of coherence. I love that term. What does it
508
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:05.359
look like to create a community that's an island of
509
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:08.240
coherence for you where you feel safe in your community.
510
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:11.880
This is really important because then that's reflected around you
511
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:15.160
that you're in a safe environment, right And I think
512
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.000
that's truly the task that we all have right now,
513
00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:21.799
to create secure attachment within self, between each other and
514
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.359
then the greater community.
515
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.599
I'd like to talk about more tools for doing that,
516
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.039
but first I like to talk about maybe the opposite
517
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:32.000
of that per moment where we find ourselves getting addicted
518
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:34.000
to the news, getting addicted to doom.
519
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.079
Scrolling on our phones.
520
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:38.839
That there's some you know, addiction to the peer and
521
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:42.359
anxiety that's in the environment, and that probably has to
522
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.640
do with, you know, what's going on historically for us
523
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.079
in terms of our inner life, that we get caught
524
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:50.039
in those patterns and actually get addicted to it. We
525
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:53.319
know it's making us anxious, but we can't We don't
526
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:55.039
seem to be able to do anything about it.
527
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.279
And we may be doing both.
528
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.039
We may be like doom scrolling and staying focused on
529
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:01.160
that stuff, and then we may at the same time
530
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:04.000
be self medicating with substances or foods and so forth
531
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:06.480
to and so we're jacking our nervous system all over
532
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:09.240
the place, right, And so I think there's a lot
533
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.839
of that going on. I'm curious about your thoughts about
534
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:14.119
it and what are the mechanisms of how if someone's finding
535
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.920
themselves caught in that, what is the attraction? I mean,
536
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:18.799
if I know that what's going on the world is
537
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.000
making me anxious, why the heck would I want to
538
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:22.160
pay more attention to it?
539
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:25.599
Well, then we're wired. Our bodies and psychees are not
540
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:30.440
evolved to deal with the level of dopamine stimulation that
541
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.279
we're getting with the glowing rectangles that we stare at
542
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:35.839
all day. We're not wired for that. And so this
543
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.640
hypervigilant part, if we think about parts, it's like a
544
00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.160
firefighter that's hypervigilant, that's watching for danger. It thinks it's
545
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.079
on the savannah watching for saber tooth tigers. That's what
546
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:47.680
we're evolved for. And then now there's no way for
547
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:51.200
us to pay attention to all the polyvalent forces of
548
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:54.839
danger around us. We get hooked into that. A lot
549
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.119
of the work that I'm doing with my clients now
550
00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:01.799
is around knowing truth and how to calm oneself within
551
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:07.319
that internal ecosystem and then having that be impermeable to
552
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.759
the outside world that can cause us distress. So we're
553
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:13.759
checking in with ourselves if we're okay within ourselves to
554
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:15.839
see then if we have enough energy then to go
555
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.759
out and pay attention to news or engaging in these things. Right.
556
00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:22.119
It's a delicate balance because you don't want to be
557
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:23.720
in an ostrich with your head in the sand and
558
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.440
disconnect and do spiritual bypassing. Right, So we want to
559
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:31.319
be engaged in community, but we're of no help to
560
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.200
ourselves or our community if we cannot regulate our own
561
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:39.240
internal ecosystem first, Right, We're unable to come to it
562
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:42.720
with any kind of self energy of calm and confidence
563
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:47.119
and compassion if we're completely dysregulated inside. So that's really
564
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:47.920
step one.
565
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.440
And we know that whatever states of mind we're in,
566
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:52.839
and here we're talking about, you know, and fear and
567
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:57.240
anxiety and that kind of disregulated mind state and emotional
568
00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:01.640
state produces a particular neurochemical mix in the brain of
569
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:06.000
brands neurotransmitters and hormones and stuff, and whatever neurochemical mix
570
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:09.519
is in the brain. More commonly or over a period
571
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.319
of time, we tend to get addicted to that like
572
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.079
anything else, Right, So our brain reorganizes itself to almost
573
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:17.599
need that, right, so it starts to feel like our
574
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:20.680
normal and like if that wasn't going on, we'll go
575
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.480
seek it out, which seems crazy, but that's just the
576
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:26.039
way addiction works, and just the way the neurochemical landscape
577
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:26.839
of the brain works.
578
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.480
Absolutely. You know, we talk about it like limbic resonance,
579
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.799
where you have a certain it's like a thermostat a
580
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:36.960
certain set point for a certain amount of dopamine. Right,
581
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:39.079
And when I was working at the drugon now called
582
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.160
rehab center. The clients would say like they couldn't believe
583
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:44.519
that I had never been in a street fistfight, and
584
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:47.000
it's just like, how is that possible? And that your
585
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:49.799
life must be so boring. But you know, I'm coming
586
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:54.160
through from a more serotonergic receptors and they're looking for
587
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.599
dopamine because that's the environment that they are raised in
588
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:00.799
and the environment that they're used to is high dopamine,
589
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:04.400
you know, chaos level, right, And so it's really about
590
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:09.000
ty trating that thermostat down from super high dopamine receptors
591
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.319
that are just begging to be filled with some kind
592
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.799
of stimulation and letting those receptors reset. I think this
593
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.200
is why, I mean, I know, this is why psychedelics
594
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:21.519
are really powerful, because some psychedelics can really reset that
595
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:25.000
receptor system instantly. I mean, ibi gain ibogain is an
596
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:28.240
incredible medicine to just completely reset the opioid receptors in
597
00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:32.720
the brain instantly. There's instant resetting of addiction to opioids
598
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.240
with ibileen. Ibagain has dangers, you have to research whose
599
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.920
good practitioners all of that, but it's amazing for that,
600
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:40.440
you know.
601
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:44.480
Application Yeah, my wife first Sasmando was a good friend
602
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:46.799
of both of us has been working as a console
603
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:49.480
for years in an Apple Gain clinic in Mexico after
604
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:52.039
being a drug and alcohol counsul in the US for many,
605
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.039
many decades, and he's seen really amazing results that it
606
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.119
basically is a reset button. It just creates a neurophysiological,
607
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.240
neurochemical reach that allows people to have a window of
608
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:04.599
being free of the craving, being free of that, and
609
00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:06.279
they still got to step into it and create a
610
00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:08.559
new neural architecture. It's going to support a different life,
611
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:10.359
but they at least have a window of change whether
612
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:13.000
they're not completely driven by the craving. And to think
613
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:14.920
about it, you know, it is like most of us
614
00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:17.920
don't think about ourselves as addicts, right if we're not
615
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:21.359
caught up in something like a drug addiction. But really,
616
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.519
our brain is craving certain things. Whatever our neural architecture
617
00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:27.319
set up is, it's craving certain things. We would hope
618
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:30.160
it's craving the neural architecture of joy and equanimity and
619
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:31.799
peace and relationship right.
620
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.519
Now, Yeah, well, these are habits that we have to
621
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:38.519
work with that, you know, changing our system and our orientation.
622
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:41.400
And I mean I think, I know that anxiety can
623
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.240
be addictive as well, right, it constant hyper arousal set.
624
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:47.720
So I think, yeah, not that it's a choice at all.
625
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:49.559
I mean, I think we're in it. You don't realize
626
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.400
we're in it, right, And so it is creating new
627
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.359
neuronal pathways to help shift that behavior.
628
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.319
So thinking of these as patterns and stuck patterns like, so,
629
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:01.839
I think that's one way to understand trauma. That's some
630
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:04.599
kind of stuck pattern in our nervous system based on
631
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:09.720
experiences we've had, or single incidents or childhoods full of neglect,
632
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.119
or even ancestral and epigenetic stuff. But there's some kind
633
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.960
of stuck patterns of dysregulation, right, And then anxiety could
634
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:20.319
be thought of as a manifestation of patterns, stuck patterns
635
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:21.400
of dysregulation.
636
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.440
And of course, because of all the unhealed trauma in
637
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:25.799
the world and all of.
638
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.440
Us that now we see society full of stuck patterns
639
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:32.640
of dysregulation, right, and so we can find ourselves in
640
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:34.559
a non virtuous cycle.
641
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.000
Right, And many of an audience or.
642
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:39.319
Are probably you know, dealing with different kinds of anxiety
643
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:42.079
right now, may find themselves in kind of stuck in
644
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.920
a non virtual cycle where they're doing things that exacerbate
645
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:48.920
the anxiety. They're self medicating to ameliorate it. But those
646
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:53.079
are you know, maladaptive coping strategies that actually in the
647
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.319
end create you know, less of the neurochemicals we need
648
00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.920
to feel good probably and also create other problems of
649
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:01.559
weight issues or drug reactions or you know, we're dealing
650
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:04.039
with sugar and capping. Whatever it is we're self medicating
651
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.160
with is making it worse. And it's just we're in
652
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:09.079
this and it can feel really difficult to get out
653
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:12.240
of that cycle. So what are some steps people can
654
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:14.880
take to create a bit of a pattern and interrupt
655
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:19.240
and begin building the momentum for a virtuous cycle that's
656
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:23.240
going to take them into reshaping their neural architecture towards
657
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:25.759
balance and harmony and so forth.
658
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.359
It's great because this is where the rubber hits the road, right,
659
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.519
how can we really maintaine? So I'll start by saying
660
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:35.440
how important it is for people to create a physiological
661
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:39.119
state of wellbeing as best we can, so paying attention
662
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:42.119
to our hormones, you know, consulting with a natural path
663
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.640
about proper supplements to take, how to eat well. All
664
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.720
of that is so important, and not to discount that
665
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:52.680
getting proper sleep, also having daily practices of meditation or
666
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:56.279
yoga or exercise, right, all of that, I would say,
667
00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:00.200
on top of all that, the most beneficial tool that
668
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.079
I can teach you, and I teach this to all
669
00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:06.160
of my clients, is being able to unblend with a
670
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:09.119
blended part, like a blended anxiety part. And I use
671
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:12.840
this technique on myself too. So the first step is
672
00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.519
just to recognize that you are not your trauma. You
673
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.280
are not your anxiety. Right, we don't even say you
674
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:22.159
say my trauma, my anxiety. You don't say I trauma,
675
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.000
I'm anxiety. We know that it's a part of us.
676
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:27.400
So the first thing is just to recognize that when
677
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:31.719
you're flooded with anxiety, recognize, okay, this is a part
678
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.800
of me. The minute you can start recognizing that, you're
679
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:37.920
creating a conscious awareness that's separating a little bit away
680
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.920
from it, so you're not at this is huge. So
681
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.159
what you want to do is really leverage that distance
682
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:45.440
between you and the anxiety so you can observe it
683
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.039
as a part. This does sixty percent of the work
684
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.719
for you. So the more, you can get curious about
685
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:53.920
I wonder what this anxiety is, and you start to
686
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:55.960
kind of talk to it in your mind. You start
687
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:59.159
to put more of your conscious awareness onto talking to
688
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.559
the part. So then you're really getting into self energy,
689
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:05.159
and the key to that is curiosity and compassion. So
690
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:07.800
the first step is curiosity. I wonder what this anxiety
691
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.280
is about. I wonder what's happening in my body? Where
692
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:13.039
is this occurring in my body? What is this about?
693
00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:17.760
What does this part need from me? Curiosity and then compassion, Oh,
694
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:20.159
I'm so sorry that you're suffering like that. I'm so
695
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:22.880
sorry that you feel so overwhelmed right now, and you
696
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:26.800
start to have compassion for your anxiety. Once you do that,
697
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.360
you'll start to notice the shift where the anxiety isn't
698
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.679
so blended with you and you're in it, you're able
699
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.440
to observe it. It's really remarkable. It sounds so simple,
700
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.400
and it's harder to do than to talk about, so
701
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:42.760
it takes some practice, but starting to practice that will
702
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.199
really help you lower anxiety. I'll do this sometimes with
703
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:48.480
myself when I am insomnium, because in the night I'll
704
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.079
wake up and I'll think about all this stuff I
705
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.280
have to do. I'm a super busy person, so at
706
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:54.920
night thinking I've got to call fleet back. He sent
707
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:57.400
me that email. I guys send him that email. Well,
708
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.119
and I'll say, oh, sweetie, you work so hard all
709
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:03.480
the time. I understand that you were trying to solve
710
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:06.280
these problems right now, and I appreciate that you work
711
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.239
so hard. But it's okay for you to rest right now.
712
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:12.480
I've got you having compassion for that. It's incredible. It
713
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:14.000
works every time for me where I'll be able to
714
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:15.679
fall asleep in a few minutes if I can get
715
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.440
into that space. I think that's a powerful tool.
716
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.280
Truly, and I think you pointed us in two key
717
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:24.119
directions there. One is we have to get some foothold
718
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:26.920
and well being somehow. We have some way, whether you
719
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:30.039
know in its diet and exercise or taking a walk
720
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:32.880
or meditation, but we know how we can get to
721
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:36.280
a relatively good place, a feeling of outkayness and safety.
722
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.480
However it is relationship with our pet. We get anchored
723
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:41.360
in that, and then we can start to build from there.
724
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:43.599
Because I think a lot of people find themselves with it.
725
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:45.079
They don't have any of that in their life. They're
726
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.159
just coping with this constant state of dysregulation. And I've
727
00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:49.880
certainly seen that in the prison work we do, and
728
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:52.480
I've seen it working with the people that work into prisons.
729
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:53.519
Right, that's their whole world.
730
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:55.519
They don't have a foothold on that kind of well
731
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:57.800
being anywhere. So I think we have to create that
732
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.840
somehow anyway to find that sense of okay. And then
733
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:03.320
I really liked what you talked about, you know, the
734
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:05.880
parts work being one form of it, but where you
735
00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:08.800
developed that witnessing capacity, and you know that can be
736
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:11.320
a big part of meditation training as well, developing that
737
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:13.679
ability to step back a little bit from our experience
738
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:17.840
because that parts that's observing the anxiety or maybe even
739
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:20.400
at a deeper level, examining some of the parts that
740
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.400
are involved in ifs. That part is basically what you
741
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:25.679
are talking about. As a self with a capitalist. That's
742
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.440
the beginning to cultivate that distance. And from that place
743
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.039
we can be curious, we can be you know, we
744
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:32.960
have all these other qualities that can arise.
745
00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:35.760
Yes, it's powerful, it's great work. And you know in
746
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.360
that daily practice that you said is so important even
747
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:40.079
if you don't have anything else even if you're in
748
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.679
a prison cell, what you always have is your breath.
749
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:44.559
You know, as long as we are alive, we have
750
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.320
our breath, and that is a great starting point. If
751
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:49.159
you have nothing else, you can start with your breath.
752
00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:49.920
Absolutely.
753
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:51.800
You know we spoke about eyeb again before. We're just
754
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:54.800
taking one really deep breath with awareness is like pressing
755
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:58.760
the reset button on a nervous system. It's amazingly powerful. Well,
756
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.920
this has been incredibly helpful, Sonny, and I think you've
757
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.840
steered us in a lot of good directions here.
758
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:06.239
Well, thank you very much for this. And where can
759
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:07.920
people find out more about your work?
760
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:10.960
Sonny Strasburg dot com is a great place to start.
761
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:14.800
I'm on all the socials as Sonny Strasburg LMFT. You
762
00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:15.679
can find me there too.
763
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:17.360
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.
764
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:19.760
And with your online resources, do you offer any kind
765
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:22.920
of guided practices or guided meditations around the parts work
766
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:23.719
or this kind of thing?
767
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:25.840
I think that's a great idea that I need to
768
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:28.840
add in. Are some recordings on the website for that,
769
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.679
because it is so helpful, and I do meditations all
770
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:32.079
the time.
771
00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:35.159
So yeah, even if you were describing the process there,
772
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:36.920
I almost felt like you were describing it, but you
773
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:39.199
were almost guiding us as you were, to develop that
774
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.920
distance right and then be curious and so forth.
775
00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:44.440
So that's a great idea. I'll add it on my
776
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:46.239
list to think about morning.
777
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:52.519
Okay, Well, thank you so much, Sonny Sasburg, always illuminating.
778
00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:54.960
Thank you, thank you Fleet very well.
779
00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:59.599
Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember,
780
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:02.360
real change happens when we commit to our growth, face
781
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:06.000
our challenges with compassion, and stay open to transformation. If
782
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:09.280
you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe
783
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.639
and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment.
784
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.400
Stay grounded, stay present, and stay true to you.
785
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:16.199
Take care