TRANSKRIPT 🔗
Katie Haldane: Welcome, TYB the Bridge. Welcome to this episode. We have the amazing Dr. Emma Austen. Emma, thank you so much for being with us today.
Emma Austin: Thank you for having me.
Katie Haldane: are so excited. Now let me give you some background on Emma. Emma is from the Alphacruces University College. Is that correct, Emma? And she's
Emma Austin: Yeah.
Katie Haldane: in Brisbane campus. There is a campus in Parramatta and it's just an amazing college. It's the university that I actually went to. to do my bachelor and my master's. Now, Dr. Emma has just in 2024 completed her PhD and has a book out, which we are going to talk about and we are super excited. Emma's PhD was in When I See, I Will Remember, and it's exploring this understanding of nature and archaeology and the geography of the land of the Bible, really bringing the Bible alive, Before I get you to start, when I got you to teach one of my classes at C3 college you were the class favourite, because guys, Emma actually has gone to Jerusalem University College, which is located in Mount Zion in Israel, tell us about that experience of being in Jerusalem and studying the geography of the land.
Emma Austin: it's an absolutely life-changing experience just to visit the lands of the Bible, to visit Israel and Palestine and Jordan anyway. but the experience of making it home, of living in Jerusalem and you know, your your local walk to the coffee shop and you're like, yeah, that's you know, the wall that King Herod built, or yeah, that's where Jesus was accused by the, you know, he was he was condemned to to go to the cross or something. You're like, yeah, just locally while I'm walking to the coffee shop. so it's it's an indescribable experience to be able to call a place like that home. but also
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: just it it really made the the old testament feel kind of like a close friend. that's that's
Katie Haldane: Wow.
Emma Austin: the way that I sometimes talk to my students about it is when we don't have this familiarity with the context of the Bible, it it feels a bit distant. You're just looking at black and white on a page. I have no idea what's what's happening here. But when you open it up and you go, I've been there, I know what that looks like, I understand. you know what this story is communicating because I've seen those places and I understand how the, the narrative, the the history is relating to the geographical context. it it's
Katie Haldane: Nice.
Emma Austin: I don't know, it's a bit weird to say that it's like dating someone, but it it's like, developing your relationship with someone. You know you know them. You
Katie Haldane: Yeah You know them.
Emma Austin: you read these texts and you're like, I know I know this. This is my friend. This is something that I understand. So yeah, the the experience of being able to stay in Jerusalem for, you know, five semesters, about two and a half years or so. yeah. I wouldn't trade it for anything, for sure.
Katie Haldane: And such a privilege and such a significant part of your PhD is this understanding of geography and how did that start? How I mean, was it in Jerusalem that you sort of fell in love with the geography and realized that that could really influence the text?
Emma Austin: Yeah, well actually it started the first time that I went to Israel. I talk about this a little bit in the first chapter of the book because it's really the beginning, I think, of my story. I just finished high school, so I was 17 years old, and my parents organized this family trip to go to Israel with Alphacrucis. That was my parents and my siblings and my grandparents and my uncle. I think we made up like half of the trip. but I didn't want to go because I thought that Israel was just a big desert. granted this is before, you know, we had YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and everything. So it's not as if I had lots of pictures and videos and everything and knew what the land was like. Just from, you know, those Hollywood movies where Jesus is sort of speaking in, I don't know, ye old English while he's preaching it, the bad hairdo.
Katie Haldane: Yeah. The bad hair do Jesus.
Emma Austin: And they're always dusty and dirty and I don't know, just walking
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: through deserts. I don't know, it wasn't very appealing to me. It's like I'm an adult now. I finished high school. You gotta let me go. let me be free. but they dragged me along anyway. And I found as soon as I got there, well, first of all, that Israel is not just one big, huge, dusty, boring desert, but also that the desert itself, is so beautiful and so inviting. There's something stunning about it.
Katie Haldane: Mm.
Emma Austin: but you know, there's parts that are desert, and there's parts like the Sea of Galilee is this, you know, beautiful, natural kind of rural farmland area, and you've got hills and you've got snow on Mount Hermon and you've got, the the River Jordan and the Dead Sea. everything is so unique and vibrant and exciting that within that two or three weeks that we were there, my whole perspective on the Bible completely changed. to the point when I came back to Australia, I had enrolled in a journalism degree and I realized I can't do this. This doesn't mean anything
Katie Haldane: wow.
Emma Austin: to me. And so I pulled out of that and moved to Sydney and started a college, sort of with this idea that someday I'll go back to Jerusalem. But I finished my bachelor got started on the Master of Theology. and I think in the first semester that I did the Master of Theology, they organized a trip to Turkey to do the seven churches of Revelation.
Katie Haldane: yes.
Emma Austin: And I was like, that that sounds really cool. I think I'll do that. and as soon as we got to Turkey and we're seeing the places that Revelation speaks about and and how much that helps the Bible to come alive. it's like I remembered, yeah. I wanted to go to Jerusalem, didn't I? That was
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always the plan and I forgot about it. And so I did a semester exchange to start out with and loved it so much that I came back. so I think the falling in love with the Bible and seeing how it helps us to understand what's happening started in two thousand and ten with this
Katie Haldane: Mm. Wow.
Emma Austin: very experiential moment of being in the land. but yeah, it sort of got revived and refreshed when I got to go back to Israel and really, yeah, develop that depth even more. Hmm.
Katie Haldane: That's incredible. And what did you actually do in your master's paper in Jerusalem? was it that geography and text together?
Emma Austin: it actually wasn't. it came out of something that I learned in Jerusalem.
Katie Haldane: Well.
Emma Austin: but it was actually on a Pentecostal rereading of iconography. which sounds like it has nothing to do with historical geography. Yeah.
Katie Haldane: Explain explain iconography to the people.
Emma Austin: So, well, just just for a bit of background, the first time that I went to Israel, 2010, 17 year olds, we went to one of the major Christian sites for most Christians around the world. one of the central most important sites is the Holy Sepulchre. this is the site where there's a church that's commemorating the death and the resurrection of Jesus. You can go into this church and walk into the tomb and visit the tomb. So the
Katie Haldane: It was
Emma Austin: first time that I went there, it I was really confronted by the fact that on all of the the walls of the church there are these paintings of saints or of biblical figures or of Jesus. and the the kind of the style of doing Christianity was so different to Pentecostalism. you know, we walk into I don't know, warehouses that have been transformed and you have the smoke and the lights and you know, people up on stage and everything. And I thought that was real Christianity and what other people do is not real Christianity. so I walked in
Katie Haldane: Right, got it.
Emma Austin: a little bit arrogantly like, these people with their idolatry and you know, whatever. So when I went back to Jerusalem in 2015, I did a class with Dr. Petra Helt, who is a Lutheran priest, but her ministry is
Katie Haldane: Amazing.
Emma Austin: really bringing unity and and conversation dialogue between the Orthodox Jewish communities and the Orthodox Christian communities, as a Lutheran, as a Protestant.
Katie Haldane: Mm. Wow.
Emma Austin: and so she did these classes where we're looking at the history of the church in the East and the development of the various different religious practices, the use of, why do they have painting? What's the theology behind that? But
Katie Haldane: Mm-hmm.
Emma Austin: also the the thing that stood out to me the most is their their resilience in the face of persecution after persecution after persecution. and through that process of being in her classes, going back and visiting the Holy Sepulchre and other churches as well, speaking with some
of the priests, my attitude towards that style of doing Christianity began to change. I guess I was confronted with my own pride and arrogance, living
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: in a country that's currently that that doesn't have persecution and going over to a place with thousands of years of persecution and judging them for not being as holy as I am, because they
Katie Haldane: Yeah, well.
Emma Austin: do it a bit differently. so I remember one time it was four a.m. in the morning, the Holy Sepulchre, for various different reasons, like conflicts and various different things that have happened, is opened up every day by a Muslim family. which is I don't know. Again, just the the bizarre nature of Jerusalem is you have the the center of Christianity, but the church is opened every morning by a Muslim family because all the Christians were fighting with each other about who should hold the key.
Katie Haldane: my gosh.
Emma Austin: And so we wanted to wait my friends and I wanted to wake up early enough so we could go and see the door being opened. we missed it. They I think we got there at 3 30 or 4 or something, and we it it was still too late. The door was already open. But we went, we'll go inside, there's no tourists here, we'll go inside. And already one of the churches that is sharing that space was doing their their morning service. And so we just sat as, they're they're doing the incense and, chanting prayers in a language I don't understand. And I just started sobbing with
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: that realization that I never wake up at 3 or 4 a.m. in the morning to just
Katie Haldane: B.
Emma Austin: soak and to press into God. if a church was like we're gonna start our service at three or four, I'd be like, what are talking
Katie Haldane: Imagine that.
Emma Austin: about? Like that is the wrong time. Like wait until nine, nine thirty, ten.
Katie Haldane: Get people to church at ten.
Emma Austin: Exactly, exactly. And I just was confronted with, that these are my brothers and sisters in Christ, that they are demonstrating their faith in their tradition. And I would rather learn from that and join them in this than be judging them and creating separation. So all
Katie Haldane: So beautiful.
Emma Austin: of that to say that for my master's thesis, I explored that even more. As a Pentecostal who is so
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: opposed to the idea of, this there's lots of aspects of the Orthodox Church, but one of them that's most striking is this visual aspect of having the paintings of saints and things. As a Pentecostal,
Katie Haldane: Mm.
Emma Austin: I just assumed it's idolatry, but is there a different theological way to think about it? and so I
Katie Haldane: Well
Emma Austin: was exploring the history and the development, the justifications that they have for using icons. and in the end I the conclusion that that I drew from it is that their use of icons is similar to how we use worship. it was actually at
Hillsong one time, Hillsong College, I think I was teaching church history. And the very next topic for that day was going to be on the Orthodox Church and on iconography. And I was still trying to figure out like how do I help these students to to get what I'm trying to to say about this. Anyway, so we're in chapel and they I think we're just doing that song that's like, when I behold the beauty of your face and the only words my heart can feel to say or whatever it is is hallelujah, hallelujah.
Katie Haldane: Yeah. wow.
Emma Austin: the the lyrics are much more beautiful than that. but the lyrics of that song are about beholding your face. And when I'm looking at your face, it moves something inside of me where there's an expression of my worship, where the outpouring is, hallelujah, hallelujah. and then you know, Lee Burns was announced he comes up on stage, and there's like a standing innovation, like, yeah, here he is. And he says, Let's give a round of applause to the Lord. Yeah, woo. And I was sitting there going, it sounds the same. But we know we're
Katie Haldane: Right.
Emma Austin: not worshiping Lee. We're worshiping God, but we're doing the same actions, the same movements, but there's a distinction between them. And
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: yet if someone came from a different religious tradition, if they come in, they might look and go, Aren't you cheering and worshipping and praising a human speaker on stage the same way you do God? No, not at all. What are you talking about? So I went back to my history class. Here we are talking about icons. And I was saying, you know that song we just sang about looking
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: through the image to worship the real God and having these external ways of demonstrating both honor, we wanna celebrate and honor and thank, a pastor or something for coming, but we worship with adoration God. so it it wasn't about geography,
Katie Haldane: Yep. So good. my gosh.
Emma Austin: but I think it all kind of ties together with, like I said, that that familiarity with the land is also about familiarity with the people and the cultures and
Katie Haldane: People.
Emma Austin: just like a a a broader understanding of how the world works. So anyway. Yeah.
Katie Haldane: I love it. And I think it is this expansion of even when I went to that church, was multiple expressions of worship. Services, like you said, they they have different quarters of different services. And the incredible beauty of almost the body of Christ. and I did the same. I was like, my gosh, what is that? But then I'm like, there's just different expressions of how we worship and how we honor and how we Give glory. So I think that is so beautiful. So thank you so much for that. That is so incredible because having you be in that place studying, you know, is so incredible. So let's have a chat about your new book. Your new book is Landscapes of Memory, and firstly, congratulations on publishing your PhD. It is,
guys, it's
Emma Austin: Thank you. Yes.
Katie Haldane: one thing to do a PhD, it's another thing to get the thing published. So congratulations and talk us through so this book is about the like I was saying in the beginning, the understandings of geography, which we're going to go through, archaeology and the land, but how it brings memory. is that right? explain to somebody who is is wanting to read this book what it's all about.
Emma Austin: Yeah. well I'll tell you where the the idea sparked initially.
Katie Haldane: Yes.
Emma Austin: I was reading a great book by Dr. Cindy Parker on the foot the footsteps of Jesus, like where Jesus walks and and using a geographical way of understanding the gospel stories. there's a particular place in Israel that a lot of Christian tourists will go, which is called Nazareth Ridge. And it's really close by to the town of Nazareth where Jesus grew up. but it's the place that traditionally is Thought to where, in Luke chapter four, the people tried to throw him off the edge of this cliff. but it's quite a stunning place because you stand at the top of this hill that is overlooking a huge flat valley called the Jezreel Valley. and as you look around the valley, there's certain sites where you're like, see over there, that's where Jonah was born. See over there, that's where Saul came and saw the witch of Endor. See over there, that's where the widow of whatever that place is, Elisha comes in and visits his widow and and raises the
Katie Haldane: Wow.
Emma Austin: sun and see over there, that's, an another story in another story. And so she was painting a picture. Imagine Jesus. He's like a young boy and with his friends they run up to they run up to the top and they're going, what story should we enact today? Let let's enact Gideon against the Midianites. I want to be Gideon. No, you were Gideon last time. Anyway, she she made this comment that the landscapes hold memories. And I was like, that's that's a beautiful idea. Let me I'm doing PhD, so I'm like, let me go and verify these facts, go and find some someone who's written about this, the psychology of lands holding memories. And lots of people talk about how landscapes hold memories, but they they didn't seem to to define that or say the significance of that or what that means. And that was sort of the spark of, maybe that's what I could do. and so I so that was sort of the beginning of the journey. I I came up with this term which most people find hard to pronounce, but it's Nemo nature, spelt with an 'm' which is why it's confusing. Nemo nature. Which is liter
Katie Haldane: Yeah. Nemo nature.
Emma Austin: Nemo nature. which is literally the memory of the land. It's literally memory of nature. That's what it is. And it's this very sensory idea of our experiences in the world around us in creation. We we store those memories in our brains, in short and long term memory. where you can have, I don't know, have you ever eaten something and then suddenly you're like, I think I had this when I was four, you know,
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: and you're just like suddenly transported to some like beach holiday and you're kind of like, What was that memory? Why am I thinking of waves right now? I think it was that family event. I feel like that was the first time I had this. and you don't necessarily stop and like pause and have a big nostalgic moment. Your brain just sort of goes, remember that? And then you might move on with your with your life. You might hear something and you're like, that's I had a nice coffee with my friend last week. Why am I thinking about that? And maybe there just was a kookaburra at that time and you heard it again. It just reminded you of something. So there's all these connections that we have with our sensory experiences, down to, you know, when you walk into a building and you know to turn left and then to walk through that door to get to the auditorium, you're not
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: thinking, I need to remember where to go. You just are remembering because you're remembering walking straight and left or you're seeing triggers that help you to know which direction to turn. so our entire life and our entire experiences are connections between our natural world, our experiences and our memories.
Katie Haldane: Brilliant.
Emma Austin: so when it comes to reading the Bible, which is so, so full of references to nature, which you know, we sometimes miss, sometimes we notice it, but sometimes we miss just because of a lack of awareness.
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: We find that the biblical authors are drawing their imagery from their own memories of the land and their expectations
Katie Haldane: Brilliant.
Emma Austin: that we know what they're talking about. Because they assume we've also experienced all of those things. and so they draw from images of grass and storms and droughts and agriculture and flowers and lions and all these different things. They draw from
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: that because that's their experience and that's their memories. And so they're creating these memory hooks. whether or not they're thinking I'm gonna write it this way so that they remember, they're creating memory hooks that are appealing to sensory ideas and sensory memories in order to communicate. But then we, thousands of years later, we
Katie Haldane: Don't
Emma Austin: bring our own sensory experiences of the world when we're reading some of these stories. and sometimes that just helps us to remember the story. Like almost everybody knows the story of Jonah because there's a flipping big fish there, you know, and you're like, that's pretty memorable.
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: We might remember that a lot more than it just saying, they were by a spring and you're like, whatever that is. Okay, moving on.
Katie Haldane: Yeah. Yep.
Emma Austin: so part of what we can do is we can get to know the context better, whether it's by visiting or,
you know, doing studies or reading books or looking at, you know, YouTube videos and photos or whatever it is, whatever it takes for us to to build out that context for ourselves,
Katie Haldane: Your answer. Yeah.
Emma Austin: then when we read the text, we start to see like, They mention this in that way and I think what they're doing is this now that I have a better understanding of the text. So yeah, it's a very like I don't know, it comes from all
Katie Haldane: Sounds incredible.
Emma Austin: different angles. Like it's something that informs us, but something that forms us as well. Yeah.
Katie Haldane: Yeah. And the thought of bringing every sense into the text, having that experience, I think, is sometimes foreign to people because they're like, No, I'm reading it like a book and I disconnect, but it is
Emma Austin: Yes.
Katie Haldane: so beautifully, got so what
Emma Austin: Immersive. Yeah.
Katie Haldane: what scripture would you give it as an example of something that is an immersive sensory moment? What would you say would be a scripture that really highlights what you've written about?
Emma Austin: Mm-hmm. well, each chapter deals with a different, succinct topic, which I think hopefully will will help to make it very like bite-sized. you might not have time to sit down and read the whole book, but you can just read a chapter and learn about lions or something. but first two images that I use that I think give the best example are two sort of shorter stories. One is the rainbow that God sets in the sky after the flood, and one is
Katie Haldane: Beautiful.
Emma Austin: the stars that becomes the anchor of God's promises of Abraham becoming the father of nations. So the story of of Noah and the rainbow is the most clear because God literally says, When I see it, I'll remember, which is why that was the title of my thesis.
Katie Haldane: wow. Yeah.
Emma Austin: you know, so the flood has come and it's receded and God appears to Noah. And makes this covenant, this promise to him that I'll never destroy the earth by flood again. he could just say that and then I don't know, go away. And no one's like, gee, I hope he meant it. You know.
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: and you just kind of move on and it's a cool moment, but adding this visual sign makes it so much more memorable than just a a conversation.
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: And so God puts this bow in the sky, which is thought to be the rainbow that happens every time it rains, or when the sun is refracting through the the water in the air, you know, however rainbows are formed.
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: and God puts this sign in the sky and said, This is going to be the sign of that promise that I just made to you. And
Katie Haldane: Brilliant.
Emma Austin: whenever I see it, I will remember that I've made a covenant to you to never flood the earth again. the interesting thing is that God there is saying, When I see the rainbow, I'll remember. But it worked for us
too. Like when we see a rainbow
Katie Haldane: Yeah, I was gonna say when he sees it, he will remember. amazing. Yeah.
Emma Austin: in the sky, we remember that God said that he wouldn't destroy the earth by flood again. So I call that a memory cue. you might
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: not be thinking about that promise, but then you're a rainbow and suddenly it reminds you of that story of Noah. the trigger.
Katie Haldane: It has an effect on your body, like the other night here in Sydney, we had a massive storm. So it came through a tornado, hail, and then moved on. And then this massive rainbow came out. It was like 10 seasons in one. And I was like, what
Emma Austin: Wow.
Katie Haldane: just happened? But as soon as the rainbow came out, it was like, okay. It was almost like that piece. He's not gonna flood us. So it has this ongoing
Emma Austin: Yeah. It's like a a physical embodied reaction to it.
Katie Haldane: bodily reaction of okay, he's not gonna flood us. That was pretty close, it seemed like it, but he's not. So I think that that sense of engagement that you have done in your book and engaging every sensory imagery and that is so beautiful for bringing the Bible alive. I love that. But the
Emma Austin: Mm.
Katie Haldane: second one you said, you said Noah, and then you said a second one. tell me about that one, Abraham.
Emma Austin: Abraham. Yeah. So so the second one gives an example where where nature has a very strong memory cue, but God doesn't specifically say, whenever you see this, make sure that you remember the thing I've told you. so
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: it's more implied. so Abraham has been you know, called by God to come to the land of Canaan, with his wife Sarah, who is barren, and God gives him this promise that he's gonna be the father of nations, but hasn't happened yet. What what do you mean?
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: we're so old now. We haven't we don't have kids. and so in Genesis chapter fifteen or sixteen, now it's not coming to mind. But but early in the book
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: of Genesis, Abraham comes with his concerns and his his worries to God, which I find so relatable. When you feel that you have a promise from God and you haven't seen it, it's like you come to God and go, look, I know you said this, but I it it hasn't happened, so let me negotiate with you. It probably what you meant was this. And so he comes to God and he's like, okay, so I don't have any kids. So probably what you meant is that I'll take my servant and, or something else. he he'll he'll be the one who inherits everything because I don't have kids the way that you promised that you would. So I guess You messed up somehow, God. and so God is reaffirming to Abraham that what I said is true, that you can trust me in this. and so the text says that God leads him out of the tent.
Katie Haldane: Mm.
Emma Austin: So if you're if you're reading the story, if you're thinking of it as an engaging text,
you're walking with him from the inside to the outside. God leads
Katie Haldane: Brilliant. Yeah.
Emma Austin: him this move this physical movement outside of the tent and then says to him, Look up and count the stars if you're able. and then he anchors the promise, like this is how many, this is how many of your descendants there's going to be. Now, nothing in that is okay. Now, tomorrow when you come outside, make sure you look at the stars and make sure you count them again and you go,
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: God told me. You know, there's no sort of instruction that he has to keep on remembering.
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: but it's such a concrete anchor that you can kind of, you know, suppose that he would be reminded about that. He's any
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: any other time that he's, you know, doubting and skeptical again, he goes out at night. He's like, remember that day when God brought me out and gave me that promise? But more than that, we can actually find it in the text. a reaffirmation of this again and again and again. So we have a reaffirmation with Isaac about the
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: the stars which will be the the numbers of the generations. We have a reaffirmation through Jacob who becomes Israel. in that case it's more about the dust of the earth. You'll be as much as the dust of the earth, which is
Katie Haldane: Wow.
Emma Austin: just as powerful but not quite as amazing. go look at the dirt. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. I want
Katie Haldane: I'd rather be a star than dust.
Emma Austin: a sparkle. So th the stars I think are a bit more profound than numbers of sand on the beach or the n
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: the amount of dust, even though that's equally effective as a metaphor. Then you get the people of Israel who are in Egypt, they're being oppressed, they're in slavery, and God calls Moses and Moses, you know, brings them out of the land. And Moses, at one point when the people are under threat, actually goes to God and said, You're the one who told us we would be as numerous as the stars. So this oppression that's happening right now, you need to intercede on our behalf, because otherwise that promise that you gave to our ancestors won't be able to be fulfilled. Fast forward a bit, they're they're in the wilderness still. And Moses eventually says to the people, look around and count how many we are. Don't we number as many as the stars? So there's no statement of make sure you remember when you look at the stars, but there's a continued resonance and a theme that carries on throughout the the whole Exodus story, from Abraham to the entrance of the people into the the promised land, that keeps on. hearkening back to that promise that was anchored on the sign of the stars. So together though those those two short stories, I use them one to say, you know, a a symbol as striking as a rainbow can be really memorable. The Bible tells us it will be memorable. A symbol as striking as the stars doesn't need to tell us to be memorable. It just is. And
Katie Haldane: Is
Emma Austin: if that's the case, then maybe there's other things that we read about in the Old Testament that never say, look at this and remember. It just talks about it.
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: And yet we'll find that it's memorable somehow. And so it it sometimes does involve a little bit of investigation, paying attention. where is nature mentioned that I just skim
Katie Haldane: Mm.
Emma Austin: through because I wasn't paying attention. But once I do, once I notice it, can I pull something out and go, there's actually something super memorable here. and
Katie Haldane: About it.
Emma Austin: not not everyone has a chance to to go and you know do some kind of a trip to the Holy Land, but when you do, some of those things end up sticking in your memory that are not
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: particularly striking. they're they're not necessarily something where you go back home and you're like, you won't believe it, guys. I saw a field in the Judean wilderness.
Katie Haldane: Ha ha.
Emma Austin: It was amazing, you know. And it might not be that striking, Like we read these, you know, things at like Isaiah chapter five talking about a vineyard you know, that is made up and then torn down. And you're like, I saw one.
Katie Haldane: You know where it says, you digging up the removing the boulders and the rocks and I'm like, my gosh, there's so much imagery. Literally digging this, you know, I think that
Emma Austin: Yeah, yeah. Liter literally. They literally had to do that. Yeah, yeah.
Katie Haldane: is where your research and what you have done. even the the class that you did at C3 College was on the geography. I'm just gonna do a sneaky plug here, guys. We have pop culture courses with Dr. Emma On the TYB website, and they go through geography and all of these things because it literally will change the way you read the Bible. You will experience something when you start to notice nature and the geography of the text. And you have done such an incredible job of bringing that alive. I remember in the class you did The Lord is my shepherd.
Emma Austin: Hmm.
Katie Haldane: I shall not want he makes me lie down in green pastures and just do a quick snapshot of that because I know all the students were like, I'm never gonna read that the same. The green pastures that we, you know, imagine living in New Zealand, they're everywhere, but that's not the case. So explain just quickly the meaning of green pastures to them that I think we definitely miss today.
Emma Austin: Mm. Well, I think a really good starting point is to pause and just bring to mind what immediately comes to mind. sometimes I do this with my students. They think it's a trick question, like what I want them to get is the correct answer or something. But no, I I genuinely want people to pause for a second and just describe what they imagine. And usually, like you said,
it's sort of those luscious green fields in New Zealand. you know, what
Katie Haldane: Like Middle Earth.
Emma Austin: what what do the sheep look like? they're they're kind of white and they're fluffy and they're lying down and I'll say, Are there any trees? Is there a creek? you know, and really kind of paint the picture. Is is there a shepherd there or are you by yourself? Are there other sheep there? You know, just like really paint the picture. And usually people have, you know, a pretty robust kind of picture of what Psalm twenty three is talking about. The context of Psalm twenty three is that it's written by David, who is a shepherd. And so you have to think, what where do shepherds live in the ancient world of Israel? what's what's their homeland look like? What's their environment that he would have been saying, This is my world and I'm gonna create a a poem, a song to the Lord out of this experience. And shepherds in ancient Israel were in the liminal spaces. they they were on the edge of the wilderness, not in the towns, but also not in the most where there is lush kinds of fields, that wouldn't be where shepherds go because there's such limited resources in the land to grow food for humans. and in
Katie Haldane: Right.
Emma Austin: a place where the where the resources are so scarce, water is scarce, the fields, the luscious fields are scarce. not just to have fields, but also to have fields that your people currently control. that there's we can protect these fields so that they don't get burnt by a, neighboring tribe or something like that. we got we gotta
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: protect this stuff. Very, very limited. Hence, where can we build a vineyard? wherever we can build a vineyard. wherever we can find space, that's all we'll do. So you don't want your sheep and your goats coming in and eating up all of your wheat and your barley and and anything that would be beneficial for humans. So there's this it doesn't always work as an ideal relationship, but there's there's there's an idyllic kind of relationship where when the food is growing, the shepherds are, in the wilderness areas where it's not that comfortable, but the the sheep and the goats can find things to eat. Like there there is
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: kind of a grass in the wilderness, but it's it's dry and brittle. and and dead in some ways. but enough. Like there's enough in there that sheep and goats can sort of ruminate on and they can get the nutrients that they need. Then after the harvest is done, the shepherds can take those flocks and bring them into the fields, which is where we find the shepherds in the fields by night in the the Luke story of Jesus' birth. It's after the harvest, and the goats and the sheep will come through and they eat up all the stubble that's left over after the harvest. They poop into the into the soil and that gets mixed in as fertilizer,
Katie Haldane: Refertilise.
Emma Austin: and then they move back to. now we're over on this side. So in the wintertime,
Katie Haldane: Stop Amazing.
Emma Austin: when there's rain over the land, the desert turns green, but not green New Zealand. Just more green than it is when it's not green. so it's quite lovely, but it's super temporary.
Katie Haldane: Yeah. Yeah.
Emma Austin: you c you can see if you spend time over the winter into the summer, you can see it go green, it's beautiful, and you can drive back to those same places two, three weeks later and it's already turning orange, and then within a little while it's it's back to being, you know, just browns and oranges and and dead. And so yeah, when when you go to Israel, you'll see the shepherds, still today, the Bedouin shepherds, they'll either be sort of in the wilderness regions. sometimes you see them on a hillside where from the outside it doesn't look like there's literally anything there. And yet there's the shepherd on his donkey with a flock of goats that apparently are finding some kind of grass type stuff. and sometimes in the winter seasons when it's been raining, That will be a bit more luscious and a bit more green. So you bear all of this context in mind when you read Psalm 23. And David is saying, the way that I lead my sheep, that's the way that God leads me. So what does that mean? What does it mean for me as a shepherd to lead my sheep to green pastures? Well, I have the foresight to be able to go, well, we've been sitting here for the past few hours, they've eaten everything. So I'll take them to that other hillside that we haven't been to yet where there's still a bit of this grass left. and it could be over different hills or whatever. The shepherd knows where to take the sheep in order to find something that's still nutrients. leading
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: beside still waters. Well if you're kind of in the middle of the the wilderness or even if you're in those the liminal spaces, even if you're more in the hill country, it's not like there's just water everywhere. So the shepherd still has to know where to take the sheep that they can lie down and be refreshed. one of my friends went hiking in the wilderness and has this incredible video. I'm so jealous I wasn't there, but this incredible video of a a drying up creek. So there there obviously had been some rain up in the the hill country that had flowed down into the desert. But it you know it was it wasn't a river. Like it was, you know, the the leftover puddles.
Katie Haldane: No.
Emma Austin: And some shepherds brought their flock of goats down to drink here. And he's got this video of them flocking all these goats flocking over all the rocks and
Katie Haldane: No way.
Emma Austin: down the slopes just to get to the water and the dogs are, you know, hurting them and the people are coming in that with their donkeys and everything. And you just go, whoa, you're you're hit with the sense of, as the deer pants for water, that's the desperation
Katie Haldane: Yeah, well.
Emma
Austin: that my soul has for you. this sense of the shepherds leading their goats to the water that they never would have found by themselves.
Katie Haldane: No.
Emma Austin: the shepherd leads them on paths of righteousness because sheep are kind of stupid. They're they'll follow
Katie Haldane: Ha ha
Emma Austin: whoever's going. They can end up in, you know, a valley in a chasm, and it's like, why why
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: are you down here? That was really dumb. But they don't know where they're going. So the shepherd leads them on the right paths that will get them to where they need to go. And then you have this image of, even though I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, I feel no evil. And, we do paint this picture of, the shepherd can reach down with their their staff that's curved and hook and pull them out. but somebody pointed out to me, and I feel like this is such a good point as well, that it doesn't say, even though I walk in the valley of death, it says the valley of the shadow of death.
Katie Haldane: Shadow. Brilliant.
Emma Austin: It's the the fear of death, the sense
Katie Haldane: Wow.
Emma Austin: of lostness or not being able to get out. And I've actually had an experience of that in the wilderness because it's very deceptive. so
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: we we were at a particular site and the bus was over in the distance and I was running late because I always run late. And I thought, okay, I can see everyone following the path that we used to get up here, but I'm running late, so I'm just gonna go straight ahead and cut across the wilderness.
Katie Haldane: no.
Emma Austin: So I ran down the side of the mountain, found somewhere where I could go down, and I was like, Cool, I'll just I guess follow this a little bit and I'll pop up a The other side, and I guess the bus will be there. And so my friend and I were walking down this canyon. We got to a place where I'm like, we can't get out of this. It's a cliff on this side. Okay, let's backtrack and climb up the way that we went down. And we'd slid down, it wasn't very secure. And so we're trying to scramble up. And I'm thinking,
Katie Haldane: No.
Emma Austin: my gosh, no one knows we're down here. And we can't get out. Somehow we managed to scramble our way to the top. My heart is pounding. First of all, we're gonna be late, but my heart is pounding thinking, I don't know how to get from here to there, and I don't want that to happen again and be stuck. somehow we managed to to make our way back to the bus. But it just gave me this sense of you can be at the bottom of this valley. And it's not necessarily you think of a small chasm or something, and
Katie Haldane: Mm.
Emma Austin: the shepherd's just gotta hook the sheep out. Sometimes it's you're at the bottom of this big valley where there's walls on all sides, and you're not entirely sure how you got down there anyway, and you're thinking, I'm gonna die down here. And sometimes it is a valley
of death, but If you have a shepherd who's paying attention, who will leave the ninety-nine to follow the
Katie Haldane: Who knows?
Emma Austin: one, it's a shadow of death because he'll be there. He'll
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: he'll he'll get you out of this. And you read this psalm, i is this a psalm of the contented life, where I don't really need a shepherd because I have everything that I need. I've got luscious grass and I've got a a still beautiful creek and there's a tree with some shade and I'm big and fat and fluffy with all my lovely wool. Like in all those photos, if you type in Psalm twenty three in Google, most of the photos have no shepherd nearby. 'Cause they're probably
Katie Haldane: wow.
Emma Austin: back at their farmhouse, having lunch or something. They don't need to be there. When you're in the desert, the shepherd is there. Because
Katie Haldane: Yeah.
Emma Austin: they can't take their eyes off the goats. They need to know if they're falling down into into the chasms. They need to know if we've run out of food here and I need to move you there. They need to sense whether the goats are seeming pretty thirsty and I've got to take them somewhere where they can refresh themselves. You you gotta be there to know if a lion's coming or a a wolf is coming or some other predator is coming to steal the sheep. The shepherd has to be present. And so I I always say to my students, I don't mind the psalm twenty-three is a beautiful Sabbath, you know, contented life, blah blah blah. God wants the best for you, you know, that this is his hope. You you can take a holiday,
Katie Haldane: Yeah. Self sufficient.
Emma Austin: you know, we're self-sufficient, whatever. You know, God just wants to bless us. Like I don't mind that because I think we need that encouragement too. But personally, I think it's such a power, it's more than just a fridge magnet psalm. It's this powerful
Katie Haldane: Yeah, come on.
Emma Austin: psalm of without my shepherd. I literally couldn't survive because I know
Katie Haldane: Two in it. Yeah.
Emma Austin: my goats can't survive without me. And you can just imagine David sitting there, maybe thinking about the bear that he had to fight off and the lion that he fired off and how hot it is and how tough it is. And he's sitting there going, That's like God.
Katie Haldane: That's that is revolutionary like just
Emma Austin: I think that's amazing. But but we miss it. It's kinda
Katie Haldane: that will change the way you read that forever. And what you have brought is the understanding of the land, the the understanding of nature, the geography, and that is why you are such a gift to the body of Christ, because
Emma Austin: Thank you.
Katie Haldane: you you bring the Bible to life And I'm devastated that we don't have enough time. We are definitely gonna have to get you back because I am just so interested in these chats. But, guys, I would encourage you to get Emma's book because it will revolutionize the way you read the Bible. I would also encourage you to jump on the TYB website. We've got pop culture courses with Emma. Go to Alphacruces, do a course with Emma. She teaches the Old Testament. and yeah, go! She does, she does tours
Emma Austin: Come to Israel with me.
Katie Haldane: of Israel. my gosh. Can I say when I got to do Israel, I didn't get to go with Emma, but I got to do Israel with Alphacruces, and it really was the most significant moment because you are there, you're reading the scripture together. it is just such an incredible, incredible journey. But thank you so much for your time. I am so grateful. We are definitely going to have you back because I have so many things that I want to talk to you about.
Emma Austin: Ha ha.
Katie Haldane: But thank you so much for being with us on this podcast.
Emma Austin: Thank you for having me, Katie. Thank you, T Y B the Bridge community, for having me as well.