TRANSKRIPT 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:13.839
Hello, listener.
00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:14.240
Welcome back.
00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:14.960
I'm your host, Dr.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:17.839
Beth Tremell, and this is Things You Learn in Therapy.
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:24.079
And I am really excited to have a very special guest with me today.
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:28.399
Isabel Marie is another one of my students this semester.
00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:35.280
And I always love having students come on and get some experience talking about things that matter to them.
00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:41.280
And so today I've invited Isabel to come and talk about couples.
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:49.039
Couples is something that you have kind of an interest in now and a future interest perhaps in.
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:57.759
And so I love being able to let students study and learn and then come on and kind of chat about what they're learning about.
00:00:57.920 --> 00:00:59.759
So Isabel, welcome.
00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:01.200
Thank you for being here.
00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:05.519
Can you introduce yourself to folks and tell us one fun thing about you?
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:10.560
Yeah, my name's Isabel Murray, and I'm a research assistant at IUES.
00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:14.480
And two fun, or yeah, one fun thing about No, give us two.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:16.799
I love the overachiever in you right now.
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:18.480
I meant to say one.
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:24.159
I have two cats, and one of them's name is Fenway, and the other one's name is Waffles.
00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:26.159
Fenway and Waffles.
00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:28.079
Okay, how long have you had these cats?
00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:35.200
I've had Fenway for about 12 years now, and then I've had waffles for I'd say about two or three.
00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:36.239
Oh wow.
00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:36.879
Yeah.
00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:37.439
Okay.
00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:41.840
So you were you were a single cat mom for a long time.
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.799
And then, you know, for like 10 years you only had one cat.
00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:45.519
Is that real?
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:46.079
Yeah.
00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:46.879
Yeah.
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:47.439
Okay.
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:55.439
So, you know, it's kind of like when you have kids, you know, and you have a big gap, and then people are like, you know, you had 10 years in between your cats.
00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:56.640
What was going on?
00:01:56.959 --> 00:01:58.400
She needed a friend.
00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:02.319
It's like it took you 10 years to figure out she needed a friend.
00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:03.200
Yeah.
00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:04.640
It's really funny.
00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:05.200
Okay.
00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:13.280
Well, listen, I'm sure that both cats are quite happy that you are their cat mom and that you realize they both need their friends.
00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:14.719
So that's amazing.
00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:25.120
I'm not sure that today's topic applies to them, but I am looking forward to um kind of shifting to talk about some couple stuff.
00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:31.520
So your um ultimate goal is to um eventually work with couples clinically, right?
00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:32.800
Is that kind of what you want to do?
00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:35.039
Yeah, yeah, be a couples therapist.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:35.599
Yeah.
00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:45.520
So we have been exploring some of the work of really prominent couples therapists and just couples work in general.
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:50.479
And one of the pieces we're gonna talk about today come from the work of John and Julie Gottman.
00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:56.800
And John and Julie Gottman were kind of new to you when you first started digging in, right?
00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.280
Yeah, I didn't even know anything about them.
00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:05.120
I know you have one of the um research studies that we're gonna talk about a little bit.
00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:14.800
But as you started to dig in and kind of explore, what is something that stood out to you about the Gottmans and their their way of studying or their research or anything at all?
00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:22.960
I think one of the things that they found in the research was that about 69% of conflict in couples is perpetual.
00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:29.680
I think that was probably the thing that stood out to me the most and I found the most fascinating because I think that is a pretty true thing.
00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:39.120
I feel like you hear couples all the time saying, Oh, we're always arguing about this or this or that, and it always seems to be the same thing, but that I guess kind of backs it up.
00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:42.240
Yeah, it feels kind of validating, right?
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:44.080
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:46.159
I think that's so true.
00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:56.639
About, I just love when the science kind of brings it to a real level of being like, oh, well, this makes a lot of sense, you know.
00:03:56.719 --> 00:04:03.759
I think that's part of what makes some of psychology so fascinating is that it is so real to our everyday lives.
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.639
And so, you know, the Gottman Institute and kind of the foundational thing.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:13.520
So this study that we're kind of talking about happened three decades ago, really.
00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.920
And um, we still hear people talk about this.
00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:38.240
And whether it's been, you know, repeated over and over and rigorous other studies, I know that some folks will notice that a lot of the early studies of Gottman's work um were from kind of smaller samples and married heterosexual couples.
00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:40.879
And so I think it's fair to say those things.
00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:51.680
I know that their work has expanded to other subpopulations as well, but I think the
Load full transcript
sentiment is one that is an important one to bring light to, right?
00:04:51.839 --> 00:05:08.399
That when you're in a relationship with somebody and it feels like you're having the same like bang your head against the wall kind of argument, it's in some ways sort of reassuring or validating that you haven't just picked the entirely wrong life partner.
00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.839
Yeah, it makes you.
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:15.199
I feel like it kind of what you said brings light to the situation and makes you not feel as alone.
00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:23.839
Like, oh wow, there are lots of other people who are having similar, we've talked about this already, kind of conversations.
00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:32.480
And so I really appreciate that part of bringing this to light that folks can feel like, hey, we're not alone.
00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.120
And hey, maybe we can work through this.
00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:39.439
So what do we think about in terms of, okay, so so what?
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:41.839
We have the same repeated argument.
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:43.759
What are we supposed to do about it?
00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:56.480
I feel like it just boils down to basically communication and making sure that your partner feels heard and understood and respected because obviously, like no one is perfect.
00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:58.720
There's always going to be disagreements and stuff.
00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.319
You're never gonna see eye to eye on anything or everything.
00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.120
I mean.
00:06:55.040 --> 00:07:07.360
So I think when we really can slow down and pause, especially in the midst of a conflict, in the midst of the same conflict that we've had, um, that communication becomes really critical.
00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:22.879
And something that I know that when I talk in sessions with folks about communication, one really small thing that is so important is really being aware of trigger words, like always and never.
00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:38.160
Because if you're in a repeated conflict and you're like, you always do this, that communication is just gonna quickly break down because they are gonna become defensive really quickly, and that's gonna become a real problem.
00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:48.800
So I think this is a good reminder that um being able to slow down and be open in communication that that goes both ways, right?
00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:56.959
That it's not just I'm gonna tell you all the ways that you're wrong in this thing for the 600th time in our relationship, but actually being open to hearing.
00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.279
Because I think that communication has to go both ways.
00:07:59.519 --> 00:07:59.759
Yeah.
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:09.279
And I think the way you communicate too is something that I've learned and heard about is using I feel statements, saying like I feel this instead of I guess kind of what you're saying, just attacking it.
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:12.800
Or I feel like you should focus on attacking, I guess, the conflict.
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:19.360
That kind of sounds weird to say it that way, but attacking conflict and the way that that kind of makes you feel rather than attacking your partner.
00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.439
Cause at the end of the day, you're in a relationship with someone because you love them and you care about them.
00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.680
Why would you want to tear them down?
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.600
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:29.600
I love I feel statements.
00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:36.240
I think um most people actually aren't super great at I feel statements, Isabel.
00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:40.480
You know, it's like because most of us don't actually know feeling words.
00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:50.159
Here's how it goes, usually, you know, I'll I'll ask people to practice I feel statements and workshops and stuff, and they'll say, I feel like you are being a jerk.
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:55.039
And it's like, actually, that's not how I feel statements go, right?
00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:57.679
I feel blank.
00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:12.320
Like then the next word is I feel feeling word, you know, it's like you have to have this feeling word, and often we don't actually have the words, we don't use emotion words in our everyday language.
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:19.440
And so, you know, really helping people slow down and learn what those I statements, how they're supposed to go.
00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:36.240
I feel emotion, some sort of emotion, not just I feel bad or I feel, you know, you you use things like I feel hurt when you I feel disappointed, I feel sad, you know.
00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:41.360
But those feeling words are sometimes not the first thing that comes to the front of our mind.
00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:41.919
Yeah.
00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:48.960
And I feel like it's kind of hard to because usually when you're disagreeing on something, you can become angry, and then that kind of clouds your judgment.
00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:54.960
And it is kind of hard to take a step back sometimes and think about how you're really feeling underneath.
00:09:55.120 --> 00:10:00.720
It's just you kind of just want to snap and then can lead to saying things you don't mean, and that's not constructive.
00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:02.799
That's not really where we want to be, right?
00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:03.120
Yeah.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:08.240
So I mean, I think the beauty of being in therapy, right?
00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:22.879
For folks who want to be in therapy as with a couples therapist or doing their own work in therapy, the art of therapy is really slowing you down to give you access to those things so that you can practice for when you're in that heat of the moment.
00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:25.200
It's like, oh, okay, so I've kind of practiced this.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:27.840
I know the words that I would want to say.
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:40.799
And so maybe this is a
reminder to anyone out there who is maybe in a relationship where you have this repeated conflict that is coming up, think about how it actually makes you feel.
00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:50.159
Like slow down, get out of feelings list, search it up on your device, find a list of feeling words, and try to identify really what it is.
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:55.440
And the other thing that I share sometimes, well, there's two other things that I share.
00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:58.799
One is if an I statement feels too vulnerable for you.
00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:10.399
Sometimes I borrow the work of Brene Brown and she says, the story I'm telling myself is that you think that I'm being lazy.
00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:21.279
If feelings feel too vulnerable in this moment, I sometimes move to like a thought-based or a cognitive-based intervention when cognitive um or when conflict comes up.
00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:32.399
And so Brene Brown kind of talks about this and some of her work where she is in a conflict and says, you know, the story I'm telling myself in my mind is fill in the blank.
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:36.720
And so I think sometimes that might be a helpful alternative if an I statement isn't available.
00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:40.240
Yeah, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:51.039
And I think the last um part that I share with folks as we kind of wrap up here is there's real truth that not everything really has to matter.
00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:58.399
You know, sometimes in relationships, sometimes the conflicts that we have are big and important, right?
00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.039
And and then you do have to focus on communication.
00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:07.279
You do have to focus on really listening and not being defensive and not using using those trigger words.
00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:17.120
But a lot of our conflict is like just small silly things, you know, especially if you are with someone for you're in a long-term relationship.
00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:22.159
Sometimes those conflicts are just it really, it doesn't have to be a conflict.
00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:29.039
It really does come down to us just being like, okay, I I don't actually need to bring up that the shoes are in the middle of the floor again.
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:29.840
Yeah.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.240
You know, yeah.
00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:34.559
Not everything has to be said out loud.
00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:36.799
Yeah, I completely agree.
00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:44.080
And obviously, we're not talking about things that are harmful to our emotional or physical or spiritual health.
00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:54.080
I'm talking about the like really small things that at the end of the day, if you didn't say that out loud, would things get better or worse?
00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.120
And um I often live with.
00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:58.080
Yeah, right.
00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.480
It's like some of this is compromise, you know?
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:12.879
And that word compromise is sometimes a little bit tricky, but I often reference this one line in um radical candor, a book written, it's actually a leadership book.
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:22.799
Um, I think her name is uh the author's name is Kim Scott, but this one line in Radical Candor says, leave three unimportant things left unsaid every day.
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:29.519
And I come back to that a lot in kind of work relationships and home relationships and friendships.
00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:44.000
That it's like if it's an unimportant thing, maybe I leave it unsaid, you know, maybe I don't have to bring up this one nitpicky thing that's just irritating me today because I just don't feel well or I'm tired or I'm hungry and I'm just irritable.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.240
It's like if I were in a good mood, would I bring it up?
00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:54.159
Yeah, I think giving people grace and knowing that it's not person personal, leaving the shoes in the middle of the floor.
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.960
It's just it's just a quirk of being human.
00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:01.519
I love that reminder too, that there are lots of listen, Isabel.
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.919
I have a lot of quirks of being human right here.
00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:07.679
This one right here, you know.
00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.919
I think it's a good reminder for all of us, and maybe that's where we should end today.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:20.399
Is there anything else that you wanted to get out today that you thought might be as I was talking that you thought of that you wanted to chime in on?
00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.559
Um, not anything that I can think of.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:28.720
I just think that it's very fascinating that about 69% of conflict is perpetual.
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.600
Yeah, it's like let's just keep pondering that.
00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:32.879
That's so interesting.
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:35.600
Well, listen, I am glad you came today.
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:37.919
I know you were a little bit nervous at the beginning.
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:39.200
How are you feeling now?
00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:40.320
A lot better now.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:42.240
It wasn't as scary as I thought.
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.240
It's not as scary as you think, right?
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:49.440
Podcasting is really just a great conversation, and I'm glad that you said yes to being here.
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:53.039
So until next time, stay safe and stay well, friend.
00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:54.879
Listener, thank you for being here.
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:56.799
And until next time, ciao.