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Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders.
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For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.
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Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
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Hello, listeners.
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This is your host today, Bill Bannham.
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And in this episode, we're going to explore what it takes to build resilient, high-performing organizations and how HR leaders can prepare their people, cultures, and leadership teams for a workplace that continues to evolve at pace.
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And joining me on the show for the first time, can you believe it?
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I'm sure we're going to get on loads more times after this, is Susan Manning, Human Resources Director over at PFH Technology Group, Ireland's largest ICT services and solutions provider and part of the RioClobal family.
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Susan brings more than 25 years of HR leadership experience across multiple sectors.
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During her career, she has led international HR teams and partnered with leaders across 17 countries, tackling complex organisational challenges and connecting people strategy with wider business objectives.
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Her approach is grounded in systems thinking and the belief that people, teams, leadership, and culture cannot be looked at in isolation.
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Susan is particularly passionate about building resilient workforces, developing future HR leaders, and creating cultures that support well-being, adaptability, inclusion, and sustainable performance.
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Susan is also a familiar face within the Cork HR community, having previously co-organized Disrupt HR Cork.
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In fact, she's going to be returning to the Disrupt stage in Cork on November 18th at RDJ, and we're going to talk about that as a part of uh today's conversation.
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Susan, how are you doing?
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How was that for an intro?
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That was some intro, Bill.
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Thank you very much for inviting me on your podcast today.
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I'm delighted to be here.
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I hope I can live up to that phenomenal um introduction.
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But thank you for having me.
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Well, you're very welcome, and we will see if you can live up to it over the next 20 minutes, Susan.
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Let's get straight into it.
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Uh so you've spent more than 25 years in HR.
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So you started, I guess, when you were around about five.
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And you've worked with the lead, you've worked with leaders and teams across multiple countries.
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Looking back over your journey, how is how is your view of what makes an effective HR leader changed?
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Thank you, Bill.
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That's a great question.
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I guess I was very lucky that I went straight into a HR manager role at the age of 25, and it was a national Irish company.
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And I learned very quickly that creative thinking and working with the business was what was required.
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So, for example, this company worked a 24 by 7 shift, but they didn't hire part-time people.
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And we were struggling to get people to get people to join that shift.
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And I identified a shift for a couple of females who wanted to work evenings, and they came in from 8 p.m.
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till midnight, and they just covered the lunch break and the breaks of the people working the 12-hour shifts.
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And that suited both a hiring need and a business need.
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And I'm not, I don't believe that has changed in the last 25 years.
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The effective HR leader continuously needs to understand what is the business problem and how the people can solve that problem.
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I did a master's in coaching and behavioral science with Henley Business School.
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And again, my research question was something along the lines of is coaching the superpower of the HR business partner?
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And I was convinced that it was.
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But speaking and do but speaking to other HR leaders during my thesis research, actually it came back to the business acumen again.
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And I don't think that changes.
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I think that understanding the commercial strategy, the customer, the market, the technology, what is the organization's ambition, and then asking the question through the filter of people, what does this mean for our people, is what makes an effective HR leader.
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I also, over the years, have learned that leadership, especially in HR, is not always about having all the answers, it's about asking better questions and challengingly that constructively to our people leaders.
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And I think that HR leaders sometimes feel that they must know the answers.
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But being able to prepare to challenge respectively, hold a neutral position, and sometimes say what others may not want to hear is what makes an effective HR business leader as well.
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And
Load full transcript
that is what's changed over the last 25 years.
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Before HR were like the police, they had to have the answer.
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They kept to the policy, they didn't um divert from the policy, and that's changed.
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Now our role is about building that trust and those strong relationships with our business leaders so that we can challenge them in a respectful manner.
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So although I believe the HR business leader has changed over the last 25 years, I think the fundamentals are still the same.
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Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast.
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If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette.
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Learn more at HRGazette.com.
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And now back to the show.
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Okay, thank you very much.
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Uh lots to unpack in that particular answer, um, including essentially part of what you're saying there is um effective senior HR leaders today need to be able to ask awkward questions.
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They they need to be able to challenge the leadership team.
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Yes, absolutely.
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What when has that changed?
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Is that the last sort of five, ten years?
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I mean, I I know it's hard to put to sort of pinpoint it, but you know, when when have you when roughly do you think that you saw that that kind of cultural change?
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It's all back to you know uh uh HR having a seat at the table.
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And I think it changes in the organizations that recognize that the people are their secret source, that having a high-performing, engaged, well-being team is what is going to support the business.
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And I think that's when it's changed.
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And companies, and there are still companies out there that see HR as just doing the the traditional HR role of contracts and policies and everything else.
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It's the it's the companies and it's the business leaders that genuinely want to understand how this is going to impact their people, what needs to change, what needs to be looked at in a different way to get the end result effectively.
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That's when it changed.
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So I think for me, and I guess it depends then as well on how your career is developing, you know, and how you develop that confidence to ask those questions and support your business leaders in looking at a problem through the lens of the people as opposed to the financial lens or the commercial lens or the customer lens, but looking at through the filter of the um the people and the organization, that's when it changed
for me.
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So I'm gonna say 10 years ago, but I think that could be different for everyone.
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It depends on where the person is on their development journey and the companies that they're working for.
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You're right.
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In in hindsight, that was a silly question.
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There are so many variables there.
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Um okay, so um let's talk about systems thinking.
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You describe your approach as being rooted in systems thinking and understanding the interconnectedness of people, teams, culture, and leadership.
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What does systems thinking look like in practice for an HR leader today?
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And how can it lead to better business decisions?
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I think sometimes, Bill, we use lots of fancy words, lots of industry words to describe a simple process.
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And systems thinking for me, it's like unwrapping the onion before coming to a decision.
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Because the problem rare sitting in front of you is rarely the problem in isolation.
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And I want to ask the question how has this developed into a problem?
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Because like, and you can take a very simple example, like an increasing turnover, and it can you can take a very simple answer that it's down to salaries.
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Well, I would suggest that it's rarely down just to salaries, it's down to employee engagement, it's down to the work that the team are being asked to do, it's down to the workload, maybe, it's down to the manager, um, it's down to the team environment, the team dynamics.
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So for me, it's it's it's similar to what makes a HR effect effective HR business partner.
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How do we keep asking the question?
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Um, and again, how do we have the confidence to keep asking the question to really understand the crux of the problem?
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And this comes also from my coaching experience, but that the first answer is rarely the one answer.
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So I think that HR people, when they're in front of a business leader who is either very senior or very well respected, very knowledgeable in their area, they can lose their confidence.
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So I like to say, well, let's find a question that you're comfortable to ask to get to the next level of the answer.
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So for example, I like saying, you know, help me understand.
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Help me understand why I'm not understanding, if that if that makes sense.
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So rather than diving in with my thought process, my answer, what I would do and how I would do it, I like
to ask what's next.
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And then I also like to think about you know, the system in the organization.
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Who else is impacting on this?
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Like, is it coming from the finance?
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Is it coming from the supply chain?
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Is it coming from customers, the customers?
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Because it's rarely that, as I said at the start, it's rarely the problems that are being presented.
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How did it become a problem?
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And why is it a problem now?
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Because something has happened to make it a problem.
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And for HR to be effective, it's about having the time and the energy and the enthusiasm to unravel it, like the onion, to say what else is going on.
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Okay, thank you, Susan.
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Um, my next question here says, You recently reflected on something.
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Um, I wrote these questions a little while ago, so I'm assuming this came from my research on your LinkedIn.
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Uh, the question is as follows You recently reflected on the Happy Leader workshop and the importance of self-awareness.
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You're like, okay, yeah, I remember that.
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Self-awareness, uh, authenticity, and understanding uh that fuels leaders.
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How much responsibility do organizations have for developing leaders who can deliver results without sacrificing their own well-being or that of their teams?
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Oh wow, that's a big question now.
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Um, absolutely, right?
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Um, organizations have a huge responsibility to develop our leaders, to give them the skills, to give them the competencies, to give them the tools to lead and to be effective in their role.
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Um and as the organization changes, as as different things change, um organizations have have the responsibility to to make sure that our people are equipped to change with that.
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But in the middle of that question, you also mentioned about well-being and um the responsibility there.
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And I am going to say, maybe controversially, I think we all have an ownership of being true to ourselves and managing our own stress and anxiety workloads as we can.
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And I know that's easier said than done.
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And I do appreciate lots of people work with very toxic, demanding, demanding managers, demanding organizations, and they can see no change out of that.
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But I would ask that we should all have a responsibility to understand how we can manage that stress.
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And the happy leader was all about that as well.
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And I think that um for me, the more you learn about yourself and the more you understand your trigger points, the more you can the more you can support yourself in that well-being.
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So, whatever way you can become more aware of yourself, you should try and do that.
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So for me, um I I did MBTI when I was in my 40s and I trained in MBTI, and I really love it.
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And just two small examples, right?
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I am naturally an introvert.
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Um, but that doesn't mean to say I don't like a good party, it doesn't mean to say that I can't deliver a workshop or present at disrupt HR, and I will love all of that.
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But what it does mean is that at the end of the day, I am going to be more exhausted, more tired, need some quiet time to regain my energy.
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So I also know that when I go traveling with work, when I go I'm very fortunate I'm going to HR conference next week with Rico in Porto, they're going to be very long days.
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There's going to be 20 people, I'm going to be doing a lot of talking to them.
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I know that I'm going to need that quiet time between the end of the day and dinner that night to gain my energy.
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Likewise, with it was actually through the Happy Leader, you've just reminded me of another example.
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I'm a very structured person.
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I'm um I I I like to have a project plan, I like to know where I'm going.
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And back then, when we were doing that happy leader, I remember talking to the coach saying, I'm very much out of sorts.
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I actually feel as if there's something going on, and I don't really know what it is.
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And through a very short conversation, she helped me identify that there is a change in my family dynamic going on, and I don't know how it was going to end.
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I don't know what the end result was.
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And that was causing my anxiousness, uh, my out of sorts as I described it.
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And I guess that's what I'm just referring to about us having an us owning some of our that well-being, and one way to do that is become very much aware of ourselves.
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If if I need to have a project plan and I need to know how it's all going to work out, working with a manager who is very much um you know more scattered in their approach, more like just working in the moment, we both will get the project finished, but we'll have different ways of approaching that project, and I'll be more stressed because I would like to have more of a plan.
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I hope that's making sense, Bill.
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But I think we we the company is absolutely got a responsibility to give us the tools, the training, the development that we need to do our job.
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But from a well-being perspective, the more we can understand about ourselves, the more we can help ourselves manage that, manage the busyness of a working world today.
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I guess it helps uh when it comes to managing the busyness of the working world today when you get to do that in Porto.
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So I am a little bit jealous, Susan.
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I'll just put that out there.
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Um hey, uh before before we hit record today, you and I are having a bit of a chat about DEI.
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Um and you've spoken about the importance of DEI in the workplace.
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Um we're living in interesting times, Susan, and we'll just leave it there.
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Uh at a time when some organizations are reassessing their approach to DEI.
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In your opinion, what what does meaningful inclusion look like?
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And how can HR ensure it becomes part of how the business operates rather than simply another initiative?
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You know, the word of DEI, and I guess we we could have spoken about DEI with your very first question because certainly 25 years ago, I don't believe DEI was on our HR agendas or radars, but DEI is just a word, right?
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The fundamental basis of DEI is supporting our team members to feel included, to feel respected, and to feel valued in their working day, in work, in the culture that you're creating as a HR leader.
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And that's what I think that meaningful inclusion looks like today.
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It's where our people experience fairness, respect, and a sense of belonging in their working day.
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It shows up when um how meetings are run, um, who receives development opportunities, how recruitment decisions are made.
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It shows up when managers create that psychological safety in their teams, and where our people can raise concerns without fearing negative consequences.
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And I do believe strongly that HR is an enabler of inclusion, but it's not all down to HR.
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Um we can provide the policies, the data, the tools, and the education, but it's everybody's responsibility, not only just the leaders and the managers, but all team members to create the culture in their workplace that they want to that they want to experience.
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I think, I think it's it's really back to does your organization have its values and are we creating consistent everyday behaviors against those values?
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I also think that in HR, we can sometimes be removed from our teams.
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You know, I do go into the office a couple of times a week, but I have a hybrid, remote, working teams.
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Also, I don't meet my team, you know, I don't meet the team members all of the time.
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So how can I hear what's really going on?
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And I, you know, you we can do that through the Gallup surveys, uh company surveys, the feedback, the focus groups.
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But if our team members have gone to the energy and the time to complete that survey, then we have to listen honestly to what they're telling us and call out when there's bad behaviors happening and say, regardless of the level of the person in the organization, that behavior is not accepted.
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We're not accepting that behavior.
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Um, and you need to change it.
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Uh, you know, we'll be having um we'll be having we'll be having words, as they would say.
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We'll be having words indeed.
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Uh okay, we are flying through this particular conversation.
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Just two more questions for you if this time out.
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But um, if you'll have me, um I'd I'd love to get you back on the show again in the future.
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But um, next question for you is uh you and I connected because uh you were one of the people behind bringing disrupt HR Cook to Cork uh many years ago before the pandemic.
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Um and um I connected with you and and you were very gracious and uh to take a call with me and whatnot, and um I think we hit it off quite well.
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And then on the back of that, you've kind you've kindly offered to do a lightning talk at uh RDJ on November 18th, as me and Ben look to relaunch Disrupt in Cork.
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Without so sorry, I should just stop there and say thank you.
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Thank you very much for for agreeing to do that.
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Um without giving too much away, Susan, I'd like you to to excite our listeners today by um maybe maybe you could share a little bit about what you're planning on addressing in your five minute lightning talk and and perhaps a couple of the learned outcomes that you you'd you'd hope folks will will leave with.
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Um I can't give too much away Bill because it's not fully thought out yet.
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So that's that's a good thing.
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But I will say something that I have been questioning over the last couple of weeks um and something that is going around in my brain and what I I believe I'm going to be looking at in more detail.
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And some of this based on these questions and this podcast as well it's around you know that critical thinking in HR and using AI.
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And how I have this fear that HR professionals are going to lose their competency that makes them unique and makes them being asked to come to the table because we rely on AI too much.
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And it's a challenge for me because like lots of people I'm sure um we're all using co-pilot in our work you know and it's helping us write better letters emails it's it's giving us insights that we hadn't expected it's bringing in different ways of thinking which I'm loving but how am I sure that I'm also doing my own critical thinking in that feedback or in that outcome that's one that's one area of AI that makes me nervous.
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The other area is empathy and I I I'm just going to go back to right you asked me one of the questions you asked me at the start of our podcast our talk was what's changed you know when do when did hate when did business leaders start engaging with HR more?
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And that is so important and we have moved that needle so far and I just fear is there a sm a risk that we're going to lose some of that if we rely too heavily on AI to do our thinking.
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So it's going to be something around critical thinking in the role of developing the HR effectiveness leader and AI.
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And the rest will be a surprise.
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A surprise to everyone uh okay and I and I'm assuming that you're going to get AI to help you build your beautiful slides as well.
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There we go.
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And do you know what I actually did a really nerdy lightning talk uh in Cambridge last year where all of my slides were AI generated.
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It was on this is so nerdy on uh HR lessons from the world of sci fi I don't think you can get anywhere than that Susan before we wrap up just one more question for you and that is how how can our listeners connect with you?
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So is that LinkedIn?
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Do you want to share your email address?
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Are you all over the social LinkedIn is the best place for me.
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That's where I hang out the most Bill.
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So LinkedIn yeah Susan Manning on LinkedIn okay nice and easy.
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Well that just leaves me to say for this particular HR chat episode Susan Manning I've enjoyed my conversation with you today.
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Thank you very much.
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Thank you very much for having me Bill I really enjoyed you too it was great.
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Thank you.
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And listeners as always until next time happy working thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
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