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Hello, listener.
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Welcome back.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Beth Tremell, and this is Things You Learn in Therapy.
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And I am really excited to have a very special guest with me today.
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Isabel Marie is another one of my students this semester.
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And I always love having students come on and get some experience talking about things that matter to them.
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And so today I've invited Isabel to come and talk about couples.
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Couples is something that you have kind of an interest in now and a future interest perhaps in.
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And so I love being able to let students study and learn and then come on and kind of chat about what they're learning about.
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So Isabel, welcome.
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Thank you for being here.
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Can you introduce yourself to folks and tell us one fun thing about you?
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Yeah, my name's Isabel Murray, and I'm a research assistant at IUES.
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And two fun, or yeah, one fun thing about No, give us two.
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I love the overachiever in you right now.
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I meant to say one.
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I have two cats, and one of them's name is Fenway, and the other one's name is Waffles.
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Fenway and Waffles.
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Okay, how long have you had these cats?
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I've had Fenway for about 12 years now, and then I've had waffles for I'd say about two or three.
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Oh wow.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So you were you were a single cat mom for a long time.
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And then, you know, for like 10 years you only had one cat.
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Is that real?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So, you know, it's kind of like when you have kids, you know, and you have a big gap, and then people are like, you know, you had 10 years in between your cats.
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What was going on?
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She needed a friend.
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It's like it took you 10 years to figure out she needed a friend.
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Yeah.
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It's really funny.
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Okay.
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Well, listen, I'm sure that both cats are quite happy that you are their cat mom and that you realize they both need their friends.
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So that's amazing.
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I'm not sure that today's topic applies to them, but I am looking forward to um kind of shifting to talk about some couple stuff.
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So your um ultimate goal is to um eventually work with couples clinically, right?
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Is that kind of what you want to do?
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Yeah, yeah, be a couples therapist.
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Yeah.
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So we have been exploring some of the work of really prominent couples therapists and just couples work in general.
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And one of the pieces we're gonna talk about today come from the work of John and Julie Gottman.
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And John and Julie Gottman were kind of new to you when you first started digging in, right?
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Yeah, I didn't even know anything about them.
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I know you have one of the um research studies that we're gonna talk about a little bit.
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But as you started to dig in and kind of explore, what is something that stood out to you about the Gottmans and their their way of studying or their research or anything at all?
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I think one of the things that they found in the research was that about 69% of conflict in couples is perpetual.
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I think that was probably the thing that stood out to me the most and I found the most fascinating because I think that is a pretty true thing.
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I feel like you hear couples all the time saying, Oh, we're always arguing about this or this or that, and it always seems to be the same thing, but that I guess kind of backs it up.
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Yeah, it feels kind of validating, right?
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Yeah, yeah, for sure.
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I think that's so true.
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About, I just love when the science kind of brings it to a real level of being like, oh, well, this makes a lot of sense, you know.
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I think that's part of what makes some of psychology so fascinating is that it is so real to our everyday lives.
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And so, you know, the Gottman Institute and kind of the foundational thing.
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So this study that we're kind of talking about happened three decades ago, really.
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And um, we still hear people talk about this.
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And whether it's been, you know, repeated over and over and rigorous other studies, I know that some folks will notice that a lot of the early studies of Gottman's work um were from kind of smaller samples and married heterosexual couples.
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And so I think it's fair to say those things.
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I know that their work has expanded to other subpopulations as well, but I think the
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sentiment is one that is an important one to bring light to, right?
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That when you're in a relationship with somebody and it feels like you're having the same like bang your head against the wall kind of argument, it's in some ways sort of reassuring or validating that you haven't just picked the entirely wrong life partner.
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Yeah, it makes you.
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I feel like it kind of what you said brings light to the situation and makes you not feel as alone.
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Like, oh wow, there are lots of other people who are having similar, we've talked about this already, kind of conversations.
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And so I really appreciate that part of bringing this to light that folks can feel like, hey, we're not alone.
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And hey, maybe we can work through this.
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So what do we think about in terms of, okay, so so what?
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We have the same repeated argument.
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What are we supposed to do about it?
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I feel like it just boils down to basically communication and making sure that your partner feels heard and understood and respected because obviously, like no one is perfect.
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There's always going to be disagreements and stuff.
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You're never gonna see eye to eye on anything or everything.
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I mean.
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So I think when we really can slow down and pause, especially in the midst of a conflict, in the midst of the same conflict that we've had, um, that communication becomes really critical.
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And something that I know that when I talk in sessions with folks about communication, one really small thing that is so important is really being aware of trigger words, like always and never.
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Because if you're in a repeated conflict and you're like, you always do this, that communication is just gonna quickly break down because they are gonna become defensive really quickly, and that's gonna become a real problem.
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So I think this is a good reminder that um being able to slow down and be open in communication that that goes both ways, right?
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That it's not just I'm gonna tell you all the ways that you're wrong in this thing for the 600th time in our relationship, but actually being open to hearing.
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Because I think that communication has to go both ways.
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Yeah.
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And I think the way you communicate too is something that I've learned and heard about is using I feel statements, saying like I feel this instead of I guess kind of what you're saying, just attacking it.
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Or I feel like you should focus on attacking, I guess, the conflict.
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That kind of sounds weird to say it that way, but attacking conflict and the way that that kind of makes you feel rather than attacking your partner.
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Cause at the end of the day, you're in a relationship with someone because you love them and you care about them.
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Why would you want to tear them down?
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Yeah, yeah, I love that.
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I love I feel statements.
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I think um most people actually aren't super great at I feel statements, Isabel.
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You know, it's like because most of us don't actually know feeling words.
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Here's how it goes, usually, you know, I'll I'll ask people to practice I feel statements and workshops and stuff, and they'll say, I feel like you are being a jerk.
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And it's like, actually, that's not how I feel statements go, right?
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I feel blank.
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Like then the next word is I feel feeling word, you know, it's like you have to have this feeling word, and often we don't actually have the words, we don't use emotion words in our everyday language.
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And so, you know, really helping people slow down and learn what those I statements, how they're supposed to go.
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I feel emotion, some sort of emotion, not just I feel bad or I feel, you know, you you use things like I feel hurt when you I feel disappointed, I feel sad, you know.
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But those feeling words are sometimes not the first thing that comes to the front of our mind.
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Yeah.
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And I feel like it's kind of hard to because usually when you're disagreeing on something, you can become angry, and then that kind of clouds your judgment.
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And it is kind of hard to take a step back sometimes and think about how you're really feeling underneath.
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It's just you kind of just want to snap and then can lead to saying things you don't mean, and that's not constructive.
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That's not really where we want to be, right?
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Yeah.
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So I mean, I think the beauty of being in therapy, right?
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For folks who want to be in therapy as with a couples therapist or doing their own work in therapy, the art of therapy is really slowing you down to give you access to those things so that you can practice for when you're in that heat of the moment.
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It's like, oh, okay, so I've kind of practiced this.
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I know the words that I would want to say.
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And so maybe this is a
reminder to anyone out there who is maybe in a relationship where you have this repeated conflict that is coming up, think about how it actually makes you feel.
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Like slow down, get out of feelings list, search it up on your device, find a list of feeling words, and try to identify really what it is.
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And the other thing that I share sometimes, well, there's two other things that I share.
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One is if an I statement feels too vulnerable for you.
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Sometimes I borrow the work of Brene Brown and she says, the story I'm telling myself is that you think that I'm being lazy.
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If feelings feel too vulnerable in this moment, I sometimes move to like a thought-based or a cognitive-based intervention when cognitive um or when conflict comes up.
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And so Brene Brown kind of talks about this and some of her work where she is in a conflict and says, you know, the story I'm telling myself in my mind is fill in the blank.
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And so I think sometimes that might be a helpful alternative if an I statement isn't available.
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Yeah, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.
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And I think the last um part that I share with folks as we kind of wrap up here is there's real truth that not everything really has to matter.
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You know, sometimes in relationships, sometimes the conflicts that we have are big and important, right?
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And and then you do have to focus on communication.
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You do have to focus on really listening and not being defensive and not using using those trigger words.
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But a lot of our conflict is like just small silly things, you know, especially if you are with someone for you're in a long-term relationship.
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Sometimes those conflicts are just it really, it doesn't have to be a conflict.
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It really does come down to us just being like, okay, I I don't actually need to bring up that the shoes are in the middle of the floor again.
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Yeah.
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You know, yeah.
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Not everything has to be said out loud.
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Yeah, I completely agree.
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And obviously, we're not talking about things that are harmful to our emotional or physical or spiritual health.
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I'm talking about the like really small things that at the end of the day, if you didn't say that out loud, would things get better or worse?
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And um I often live with.
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Yeah, right.
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It's like some of this is compromise, you know?
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And that word compromise is sometimes a little bit tricky, but I often reference this one line in um radical candor, a book written, it's actually a leadership book.
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Um, I think her name is uh the author's name is Kim Scott, but this one line in Radical Candor says, leave three unimportant things left unsaid every day.
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And I come back to that a lot in kind of work relationships and home relationships and friendships.
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That it's like if it's an unimportant thing, maybe I leave it unsaid, you know, maybe I don't have to bring up this one nitpicky thing that's just irritating me today because I just don't feel well or I'm tired or I'm hungry and I'm just irritable.
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It's like if I were in a good mood, would I bring it up?
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Yeah, I think giving people grace and knowing that it's not person personal, leaving the shoes in the middle of the floor.
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It's just it's just a quirk of being human.
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I love that reminder too, that there are lots of listen, Isabel.
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I have a lot of quirks of being human right here.
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This one right here, you know.
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I think it's a good reminder for all of us, and maybe that's where we should end today.
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Is there anything else that you wanted to get out today that you thought might be as I was talking that you thought of that you wanted to chime in on?
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Um, not anything that I can think of.
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I just think that it's very fascinating that about 69% of conflict is perpetual.
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Yeah, it's like let's just keep pondering that.
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That's so interesting.
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Well, listen, I am glad you came today.
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I know you were a little bit nervous at the beginning.
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How are you feeling now?
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A lot better now.
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It wasn't as scary as I thought.
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It's not as scary as you think, right?
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Podcasting is really just a great conversation, and I'm glad that you said yes to being here.
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So until next time, stay safe and stay well, friend.
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Listener, thank you for being here.
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And until next time, ciao.