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[0:01] Welcome to The Empathic Edge.
[0:07] Hello everyone, and welcome back to The Empathic Edge
[0:10] with Megan Smith, founder of Empathic Edge.
[0:14] Megan is an attorney, negotiation professor
[0:16] and dispute resolution professional focused
[0:19] on the future of human communication in an AI driven world.
[0:23] Through a negotiation strategy, emotional intelligence,
[0:27] and high stakes conversation training,
[0:29] she helps professionals build confidence
[0:31] and perform more effectively under pressure.
[0:35] I'm Sean O'Connor, and today Megan and I are talking
[0:37] about how to give brother difficult feedback clearly
[0:42] without sending the conversation straight
[0:44] into defensiveness and shutdown mode.
[0:49] Hi Megan.
[0:50] Hey Sean, good to see you.
[0:51] It's good to see you too.
[0:52] I like this topic.
[0:54] I've had in past lives, so to speak,
[0:58] a lot of situations where feedback requesting
[1:06] and accepting and exchanging feedback
[1:08] was an inherent sort of part of our day-to-day lives.
[1:15] Why do you think feedback causes defensiveness
[1:20] even when it's meant to be, quote unquote,
[1:22] constructive feedback?
[1:24] I think that it taps into, I mean, really
[1:28] just our own self-esteem a lot of the time,
[1:33] especially if you haven't really ever
[1:35] been a part of I think like team sports before
[1:37] or even individual sports, but something where you were coached
[1:41] or maybe like actors, they receive a lot of feedback, right?
[1:45] And you have to, you're probably hundreds of no's
[1:47] before you will hear yes.
[1:49] Or even writers, they have editors, right?
[1:52] There are people who are literally saying,
[1:54] let me slash your writing and chop it up
[1:57] and we're gonna make a bunch of changes.
[1:59] And I think that that is really kind of a learned skill
[2:03] and ability.
[2:04] I don't know that we're naturally that great at it
[2:06] because it is hard for us to hear,
[2:09] like it's hard for our own egos to hear.
[2:11] Okay, I didn't do one thing perfectly.
[2:14] And I am a recovering perfectionist.
[2:17] I don't know how much of the recovering part,
[2:19] but a perfectionist.
[2:20] And I know that is really hard for me, right?
[2:23] And it's, I know that I'm not perfect,
[2:24] but also hearing that feedback can be really tough
[2:27] sometimes, which is why it's important to just realize,
[2:31] hey, this is just an opportunity for growth,
[2:33] but it does tap into something in us,
[2:36] I think that makes us question ourselves.
[2:40] Well, yeah, I mean, and what we're talking about here,
[2:43] ultimately, I think is we're creating a context
[2:47] within which to give and receive feedback.
[2:49] And I think a lot of our lived experience,
[2:53] especially as kids, is there weren't,
[2:56] and necessarily any rules to the engagement.
[3:01] And so it was just often a one way blast of criticism,
[3:06] you know, thinking about my own upbringing.
[3:09] And I wouldn't say that I was getting constructive feedback
[3:13] from my father all the time.
[3:15] I think there was a lot of just, you know,
[3:17] do as I say, not as I do.
[3:19] But how do you, I mean, you know,
[3:23] you're going into a difficult conversation, right?
[3:26] You're, how do you open up a difficult feedback conversation?
[3:31] So the person understands why you're bringing it up.
[3:34] In other words, and what I'm thinking is,
[3:36] oh, it's a feedback conversation.
[3:38] So like, I know I'm going into a feedback conversation with Megan
[3:44] as opposed to feeling ambushed by it.
[3:47] Well, I think the first thing that's really important
[3:50] is kind of going back to that, like childhood experience
[3:52] that you mentioned.
[3:54] I think my fear, and I really dislike this,
[3:57] and I try never to do this with my students or with anybody else,
[4:01] is I don't want my answer to be because I said so.
[4:06] I would like to think about the why behind something.
[4:09] So if I am asking you to do something in a particular way,
[4:13] I also want to give you the reasoning behind it.
[4:15] And there should be a reasoning typically, right?
[4:19] And I understand it's different with children, right?
[4:21] Especially at certain ages, we need them to be safe.
[4:23] But even then, I think it's, you know, it's for safety.
[4:26] Maybe I don't have to go into, you know,
[4:28] this long monologue about why it's important and safe
[4:31] to not touch the stove when it's hot.
[4:33] But I still think I can indicate it would be unsafe, right?
[4:39] Don't touch that.
[4:40] It's unsafe versus just do it because I said so.
[4:43] Yeah.
[4:44] And so I think when you're starting that discussion with somebody,
[4:47] you want to be clear about what kind of discussion it is.
[4:50] Hey, I just wanted to give some feedback
[4:52] or I wanted to have an open dialogue about something
[4:56] that we could maybe try differently.
[4:59] And then I think especially from a coaching perspective,
[5:03] I think it's very important that coaches,
[5:05] we talk a lot about the sandwich models.
[5:07] Sometimes they'll say, OK, as a coach,
[5:09] I want to give, you know, so maybe here's what you did well.
[5:14] Here's what you can work on and then end with, you know, something good.
[5:17] And I think that's a good strategy.
[5:19] But I think for me, I think about it in terms of, you know,
[5:22] what will we do the same and what would we do differently?
[5:25] Or really, it's, you know, what are the opportunities for growth?
[5:29] And then I also like to leave my students with homework.
[5:34] So hey, before next time we discuss these were some things to work on,
[5:38] how about let's choose one of those two or three things, right?
[5:41] And how that be your focus.
[5:43] So that next time it isn't too much work.
[5:45] It isn't so much feedback that they can't implement a strategy.
[5:49] So being very clear and
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concise and also making certain that you are
[5:56] really direct in the thing, right?
[5:59] You don't want to say, well, Sean, just, that was just bad.
[6:03] I don't even know what to tell you.
[6:04] It's, I just hated everything, right?
[6:06] I mean, that's mean and it's not constructive.
[6:09] It is helpful in no way.
[6:11] So you have to be very clear and hey, let me give you an example of a time
[6:15] where you did this well.
[6:16] And let me give you an example of a time where maybe empathy was lacking.
[6:20] Here's a recommendation for how you could do it next time.
[6:24] And let's try it on your own next time.
[6:26] Mm-hmm.
[6:27] Yeah, well, I'm hearing in that specificity matters, right?
[6:30] I suppose the suffig, you know, broad generality that I can't really,
[6:38] it's not actionable.
[6:39] What about timing?
[6:40] I mentioned, you know, ambush earlier.
[6:44] I mean, you almost need consent for one of these conversations.
[6:49] I agree with that.
[6:50] Timing is very important because, and I think we're not all great at that.
[6:54] Even just information that we share, there was one time earlier this week.
[6:58] I thought, oh, I need to tell this to my mom.
[7:01] And then I thought about the time of night and I was like, well,
[7:03] is this something that would stress her out, right?
[7:05] Why would I do this at this particular point in time?
[7:09] And so either it's, you know the other person well enough to where you know
[7:13] when like a good time would be or you're scheduling that time.
[7:17] So let's say you need some feedback from your boss, right?
[7:21] And all of a sudden you just like, you know, knock on their door and say,
[7:24] hey, boss, I need to ask you something.
[7:26] And they're not expecting it.
[7:28] They may have a lot of other things going on and maybe somewhat dismissive
[7:32] versus you can offer to schedule some time.
[7:36] Hey, I'd like, you know, 15 minutes of, you know, on your schedule
[7:40] so that we can have a conversation.
[7:41] I just had a few questions or even I just, I had some feedback, right?
[7:48] So kind of scheduling that time.
[7:50] I also think another timing element that is important that I've had to teach
[7:54] a lot of our coaches before is people will only retain information for, for so long.
[8:01] So if I have students that have been in a practice negotiation for an hour
[8:06] and a half and then you decide to give them an hour of feedback after that.
[8:11] They're not, that has happened before we, well, it was the reverse.
[8:14] We had an hour of a negotiation and an hour and a half of feedback.
[8:17] And when I learned that, I was like, there's no way they got anything from that, right?
[8:21] They lost you.
[8:22] And in fact, I said what you should be doing, ask them to take a five minute break
[8:26] at the end of it, ask them first to reflect.
[8:29] I always start with my students.
[8:30] Tell me what you thought about that, right?
[8:32]
What would you do the same?
[8:34] What would you do differently?
[8:35] Okay, great.
[8:36] Now I'm going to give you some of my feedback.
[8:40] Yeah, like you, in a sense, don't have to go over that territory.
[8:45] And you know, like they may have, through their own self-reflection, caught that,
[8:50] oh, you know, I did this and I did this and I did this and those things could have been better.
[8:54] And you're like, oh, check, check, check, yep.
[8:56] And then here are the things I saw, you know.
[8:58] And, yeah, the feedback session shouldn't last longer than the set of chalk.
[9:04] What about the scenario where, you know, the other person is immediately disagreeing with
[9:11] you or cutting you off or, you know, it's like, is defending their actions.
[9:18] What do you do?
[9:19] How do you handle that?
[9:20] You know, obviously, something's going on there, right?
[9:22] There's a reason why they are defending their actions.
[9:26] And either it's because this is something that is so ingrained and instilled in them and
[9:30] they just feel this, this is right.
[9:32] This is, you know, a principle that they just hold no matter what.
[9:38] Or maybe they're just not used to getting feedback.
[9:40] I see that happens sometimes too, especially with some of my newer students.
[9:45] And so a lot of the time, I will just sort of pause it in terms of a hypothetical.
[9:49] Okay.
[9:50] So let's just go into it assuming like everything you're saying is 100% correct.
[9:55] Will you just give me a few minutes to propose a hypothetical or even to roleplay?
[10:01] Like, how could it look differently?
[10:03] And let's just see if that works.
[10:04] And if not, great, like, don't adopt it.
[10:07] Let's go back to what you're doing.
[10:09] But why not give it, you know, five minutes to at least just try it out?
[10:14] If you don't have that much time, I mean, another option is just asking, you know, what about
[10:19] this method do you think wouldn't work or what would be most concerning for you?
[10:24] Or what would happen if you just tried it out?
[10:27] Right?
[10:28] I don't mean that you spontaneously combust or like, what, like help me understand what
[10:33] the concern is.
[10:34] Well, I don't want to be wrong and I don't want you to be right.
[10:38] No.
[10:39] Yeah, that's tricky, tricky scenario is that perhaps, like even with that, a lot of the time,
[10:47] they are so focused on the wrongness or the rightness of the thing.
[10:51] When in a negotiation, sometimes look, you just need to get the most that you can or you
[10:56] just need the car and you need to pay as little as possible.
[11:00] But there may be other things that you get, right?
[11:03] In place of maybe the lowest cost, maybe it's some other things that they add on, maybe you
[11:10] get a lower interest rate.
[11:10] I mean, there may be some other things or maybe you've got a different car, right?
[11:16] But a lot of the time, it's that you're fighting against the idea of wanting to be right
[11:22] as opposed to, let's just learn from the other side and let's try to create and maximize
[11:27] value for everybody.
[11:29] Yeah, that's what I think, like practice in these scenarios works wonders, because we kind
[11:34] of are, I don't know, it's, you know, it's not typically taught in schools, you know,
[11:38] I mean, usually it's, you know, the communication is one way, you know, it's not like, hey,
[11:42] you open to some feedback, it's like, hey, I mean, I mean, a vomit criticism all over
[11:48] you.
[11:51] Wow, I mean, go well, I wonder why.
[11:54] Right, right.
[11:56] What about, talk about coming out of, you know, you mentioned the sandwich model earlier,
[12:02] but talk about, you know, coming out of a conversation on an up note, you know, whether
[12:08] that's with clear expectations or, you know, sometimes it's like, is there a by when, like
[12:13] you're going to do something or, you know, there's some sort of agreement about what's going
[12:19] to happen next, how do you do that?
[12:22] Or how important is it if, if, if at all?
[12:25] So I, I think it's always important, I mean, let's say after a negotiation or a difficult
[12:29] conversation and sometimes even during the difficult conversation, sometimes what I'll
[12:35] do is I'll, I'll take a break and say, okay, I kind of need to reset.
[12:39] I may need to take a minute because like, I'm, I'm no longer level headed.
[12:42] I'm getting a little heated.
[12:45] If I go and take that break, usually, and this is very much like competition mode, we
[12:51] tell our students, leave the other side with a question so that they're thinking about
[12:56] the homework that you've left for them, and then you get to come back kind of, it's very
[13:02] strategic and I wouldn't always recommend it, but, but it kind of works in competitions.
[13:07] And I think that, I mean, sometimes you resolve everything I understand you may not necessarily
[13:12] have follow-up homework, but that's part of kind of the summarizing at the very end of
[13:17] a negotiation or a difficult conversation.
[13:20] It's where did we start?
[13:21] Where did we end?
[13:23] What is left remaining and make certain that you're making that time bound?
[13:27] So if it's, you know, hey, I, you know, I promise that I'm going to take the trash out twice
[13:34] this week because I realize that that would take a huge burden off of you, right?
[13:38] Like I want to be able to say the thing that I'm going to do and how quickly I'm going
[13:42] to do it, and then, hey, how about we circle back in a month and see how things are
[13:45] going then?
[13:46] Mm-hmm.
[13:47] Yeah, some accountability there and also it back to specifics, like it actually, you're naming
[13:53] what you're going to do and it can be, can be measured.
[13:56] I mean, not to bleed into like goal-setting stuff, but you know, I hear some of that in there
[14:00] where it's like, okay, you know, specific is better, even if it's small, as you can, you
[14:06] can check back in like, oh, I did that thing.
[14:09] Absolutely.
[14:10] Yeah.
[14:12] Well, Megan, as always, super interesting and food for thought, at least for me and we're
[14:20] up against time.
[14:21] But thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your point of view on all this.
[14:26] Always, always a pleasure.
[14:28] Thanks, Sean.
[14:29] I love your point of view too.
[14:30] So thank you for sharing.
[14:31] You bet.
[14:32] Hey, that's it for today's episode of the Empathic Edge.
[14:35] Thanks for tuning in.
[14:37] If you'd like to learn more about Megan and the Empathic Edge and their work around negotiation,
[14:43] communication and AI-powered practice training, you should visit the website EmpathicEdge.com.
[14:50] I'm Sean O'Connor.
[14:51] Thanks for listening and as always, leave us a thumbs up, subscribe so you don't miss future
[14:57] conversations or share a link with someone in your world who you think would be interested
[15:02] in having, enhancing their skills around difficult conversations.
[15:08] Have a great day.