Fuld transskription af P.G. Sittenfeld: FBI Sting, Bribery Charges, and a Supreme Court Win

I mean, did you think, okay, this is gonna go up and down, but at the end I'm gonna end up sort of fully vindicated. speaker-0: It's a good qu I think I probably would have that would have been like a bit of a roller coaster and sort of vacillating emotions and like intellectual assessment. think I had probably more as many people would who have not experienced the criminal legal system directly. I probably had more confidence that like, ⁓ doesn't the system on balance generally get it right? And it's like nope it it gets it wrong all the time, sadly, and with ⁓ as you both know, like great human toll and human consequence. So I think I initially would have thought that. Then there were moments of, you know, shock and anguish and despair and also moments of like hard to have sort of higher moments of triumph that you I I wish so many defendants, especially innocent defendants, got to experience some of the moments of triumph that I did. I think the only thing that never changed throughout, you know, a long, winding, harrowing process for me, I always knew that I would fight it tooth and nail every step of the way. The day that I learned to my great shock I was gonna be arrested and indicted through, you know, the the trial court saying dismissed permanently forever and the government owes you a fine back. I always know like I'm gonna fight them on I think this is so wrong and misguided and was done in such bad faith. So that was the consistent terms of my faith that like we would ultimately have, you know, that form of vindication and victory would have depended on the day you would have asked. Not because I didn't think it was warranted, but I mean look, you know, the some it's really hard being a defendant in I know would I trade our system for like the Russian gulags or whatever. Of course not. But that doesn't mean it's not ⁓ ripe with many flaws. speaker-2: Well, I do want to ask about that. I mean the the difference in how we perceived the system often depends on our upbringing and what we saw growing up. I mean, you went to phenomenal schools all growing up. ⁓ you were a Marshall scholar, right, for grad school. You went over to Oxford. All the speaker-0: One of the dumber Marshall Scholars. But yes, nonetheless. speaker-2: But but the accomplishments, I mean y you you s you sort of all the golden rings you got to grab and you then nonetheless find yourself in the system. How do you think your sort of prior, you know, years living and a success, what did it teach you about the system that that was entirely wrong? speaker-0: Well, I think one of the reasons why, you know, I speak at law schools and law firms and I go back to prisons, and part of the reason why I mean, I'm a little bit, you know, tired of my own story, but one reason I actually think it is important to share with a very diverse set of audiences is if you went to Princeton and were an elected official and come from, you know, privilege or at least a relative degree of privilege, and you can still get steamrolled. By the system and by the sort of bureaucratic, you know, winning overdoing justice nature of things. If this can happen to me, it can happen to anybody. And I think that, you know, it's we probably won't get the reforms that are needed and get the change that is needed until people who, you know, feel comfortable and feel safe and think to themselves, that happens to other people. That happens to those people, whatever you sort of they would mean by that. Everyone should think that this can happen to me. And I don't want You know, I don't want people to walk through their life paranoid, but a bad faith prosecutor whose goal is, you know, headlines or victory not doing justice can wreak havoc in the life of any American at any time. ⁓ yeah, and they're obviously there are a you indict a ham sandwich, things like that. speaker-2: I will say this the question I have is the people who you went to college with, people you went to graduate school with, people who were in positions of power in politics, if you told them that back when you were in those positions, what percentage you think would believe you? Two percent? How do you build how do you bridge that gap between the folks who really need to know, look, the system is not great, and those who don't want to hear it? speaker-0: Very few. Very few. It'd be hard to put a percentage on Well it's an irony in that like, you know, 70 million Americans, I believe is the number, have some form of a criminal record. That's just directly, right? You then say if those people have a couple family members, a couple best friends, it's like we basically should live in a country or close to living in a country where like everyone knows someone, and yet I do think a lot of people in power affluent not everybody by a long shot, but still have been and feel buffered. Yeah. So it would be a low percentage that and look. I do not w you know, I have an amazing wife and at the time this first started we had one son, then we had a second son and have a third son. You know, I don't wish the sort of anguish that was put upon them. Yeah. So I don't want to sort of be like an educational guinea pig for the sake of my social media. Sure. But I am glad if that's not totally the wrong word. That everyone who knows and is friends with P. G. Sittenfeld and felt my righteous indignation about this prosecution from the get-go, they think, man, wow, this really could happen to anybody. Yeah. So I mean, you know, the the racial and wealth disparities about sort of who gets targeted and who doesn't really have the ability to fight back. I mean, my my privilege in this was that I had the chance to fight. And it's really important. I say this every place that I speak. ⁓ getting this was not what our founders and framers envisioned. No. But just getting to go to trial, getting to fight your case all the way to trial, that reflects a privileged position. Unbelievable so 98% or whatever the

percentage is, roughly 98% of people, they don't take police because 90 because 100% of that group are guilty. It's to mitigate, you know, ruinous legal costs. It's to mitigate the potential punishment. So yeah, I I I don't know. How do you make ⁓ how do you get people to think they are as vulnerable as they could be? I don't know, beyond, you know, sharing stories that make people say there but for the grace of God go I speaker-1: Well, and I think that's one of the reasons it's so important you're sharing your story. I think sometimes if you survive this system, you're just so tired and you just want to be done with it and you don't want to draw the ire of anyone who already was angry. Yep. You know, and they're probably angrier that you got out of the what up got out of the situation that they wanted to keep you in. And so I think, you know, these stories are just so incredibly important. And so we appreciate you coming to tell yours, even if you're tired of it. speaker-0: I'm tired of it. I mean, I like connecting with people. I like trying to inspire people. But actually, I think, Amy, you make such a good point. You know, I I have a lot of fri I on a weekly and often on a daily basis. I speak to friends, these are genuine friends, who are still in prison, right? And I do not blame anybody who is churned through this system for when they get, you know, to the other side as much as you ever get to the other side, saying, I want to look forward, not back. I want to kind of divorce myself. from that chapter or those chapters of my life, I completely understand that as an emotional response. It's actually why I felt it's important to like, I'm going to take this thing that happened, integrate it and and I've sort of done kind of hardcore, the opposite of like proximity to the experience because I want to use it as a tool to, you know, inspire and motivate change in other people, educate people that might sort of think, greatest system on in the world, totally flawless. And yeah speaker-2: Exactly. Well so I want to start now kind of rewind a bit, go to the beginning. speaker-0: Yeah, your viewers are like, What a what happened to this? speaker-2: What what's the first day, first moment you realized I'm under investigation for a crime? And then what did that feel like? speaker-0: So this the actually started there the FBI in Ohio, ⁓ as far as we can tell, basically like unfurled a dragnet across the entire state looking for public corruption, which I abore and should be rooted out and should be punished. It shouldn't be fabricated and invented where it doesn't actually exist. So they were aggressively looking in state government, cities, townships all across the state. About a week before I ended up getting arrested and indicted, they arrested a colleague of mine on the city council. And as part of ⁓ publicly unveiling that indictment, they divulged details about these two people who I had understood to be in w ⁓ gentlemen who wanted to invest in

a blighted, ⁓ dangerous eye sort of a building in the heart of downtown Cincinnati. If you're a councilman and you have out-of-town investors saying, Hey, we want to help improve and revitalize your downtown. speaker-2: Sign me up. speaker-0: You're like, great, this sounds fantastic. So in unveiling the indictment for my colleague, they basically kind of blew the cover of these undercovers. When I was like, wait a minute, these two guys. These two guys, yeah, who I mean, talk about a moment of disorienting of like, you have entered a Truman show scenario of fiction. So I then did what you would think of do of I called a friend who actually had spent 25 years ⁓ of noble service in the US attorney's office that subsequently indicted me. She was from the onset disgusted with the prosecution, but I called her and said, What I thought was the case is not the case. Talked to she put me in touch with another lawyer who I did not know initially. So it was in the hands of someone who, a very competent lawyer, but was a stranger, which we can come back to sort of my feelings about that piece of it. and then that lawyer spoke to the US attorney who the day before actually said, ⁓ your client is gonna be arrested and indicted tomorrow in one of the most ⁓ dramatic and surreal drives of my life. My amazing wife Sarah, who is a oncologist, was doing her training at the Cleveland Clinic. I was a city councilman in Cincinnati. I happen to be starting the day up there. So I wake up at like 3 30 AM to drive 250 miles down I-71 in order to meet eight FBI agents in the driving way of my home to be arrested. So ⁓ it can't I mean I had sensed like again, never in any universe felt like I have done something unethical or untoward, let alone that crossed any threshold of criminality. ⁓ when the prior indictment of that my col city council colleague was announced, I was like, okay, what's going on here? It still came as the shock of a lifetime that I was being indicted and I was being arrested. speaker-1: What did you think about on that drive? speaker-0: Boy, I mean, in any like sort of peak emotional experience, your brain is going in all sorts of places. So I'm sort of thinking like everything ranging from, am I dreaming? Like, am I gonna wake up and like, ⁓ I'm in my bed and there's Sarah? And well, that was a spooky dream, but it was just a dream. To I think I remember thinking, like, is my life just gonna unravel to such a crazy degree? And I think I had the thought like, Maybe I'll go and join like a Catholic monastery on the other side. My faith's very important. But I like so I mean, maybe that's not such a crazy thought. But to also then sort of trying to remember like, because I still I hadn't seen an indictment. I didn't know what I was being accused of. Thinking, what could they possibly be charging me with? To ⁓ you know, really mundane, banal thoughts like, well, at four a.m. I 71 doesn't have too much traffic, sort of thing. So I do remember ⁓ The first

woman I I ⁓ reached out to, Kathy Brinkman, the woman who was the AUSA in the Southern District of Ohio US Attorney's Office, ⁓ and is a heroic, saintly woman. She actually called me probably about I don't know, four, four thirty AM to check in on me. 'Cause I was like, I needed to be home by nine AM to not, you know, set loose some manhunt or whatever. speaker-1: I also just want to pause for a minute because people just can't comprehend this. You were told you were going to be arrested. I know, but like but but sometimes it plays out in this bizarre way. You're told you're going to be arrested. They're like, be at your house by this hour to be arrested at your home. It's just ridiculous. speaker-0: Which is not the norm. It's a date it's a date, yeah. speaker-2: Two just show up at court. Right. Yeah. Like like you could just show up at court. Do this the right way. speaker-0: ⁓ the and I mean d do eight you know, like I think I had a fly swatter in my kitchen. The waste of taxpayer dollars through these sort of theatrical show of force. Taxpayers, if no one else, should actually be offended by that. But anyway, so Kathy Brinkman, career federal prosecutor, disgusted by this prosecution, she calls me an hour into my drive and it's just like, you know, stay strong. I wanna make sure you're on the road. And then she said to me, ⁓ This experien what lies ahead and I couldn't have known then what you know what would lie ahead, a trial, as things I said a trial, prison, a pardon, victory in the Supreme Court. She said, This is gonna change your views of government. ⁓ and that was a subtle but accurate comment, to say the least. speaker-1: Yeah. It I mean, I don't think there's no any way around that that outcome for you. But to to go back to the the arrest moment, you pull up into your driveway and there's eight agents. speaker-0: So yeah, I got there a little bit early and then I knew I was gonna leave at I I basically understood I would be released of my own recognizance at the end of the day. And this is stuff that like, you know, when your life is when that degree of upheaval is happening, some of these details might seem kind of, you know, like peripheral. But I was sort of thinking about a lot of stuff. I don't want like, you know, a twelve person press corps following me back home, feeling sort of trapped inside my own house. So what I actually did, I get home I don't know, like I changed clothes, put in my contact lenses. I then actually moved my car like two streets over so I could just get my car from there and then drive home at the end of day. I then, after ⁓ leaving my car, I then walk back to my driveway, and that's when the eight FBI agents sort of and they, you know, there was there was a weird sort of like cordiality to them that day. I've always remembered them being like, ⁓ are these handcuffs too tight as though they were like fitting me for a men's loafer or something? I was like You've basically showed up to play your dutiful part in trying to ruin my life and the sort of all of this like the manners. I would have been like, I think you guys are doing something ⁓ very unethical to be honest. I know you're doing your job, but I think you're doing something immoral. Like, if you're gonna go 90% immoral, just go all the way. You know, you don't even need to be polite. speaker-1: Who cares how they fit? Kind of like it's just speaker-2: So that first day you go to a digital appearance, you find out what you're being charged with. What is your first kind of reaction to that? speaker-0: So I'm sitting in a US Marshall holding cell, and at some point they bring in another guy. I won't say his name here, but I I've always remembered his name because it sort of felt like we this other guy and I had led very different lives. It was immediately apparent. And yet fate had brought us to share a US Marshall holding cell the same day at the same time. And I've actually I've always thought I'd need to do like a journalistic piece that sort of like tells our parallel stories that converge in this one moment, yeah. So I'm sitting in there with him, and the US Marshal comes by and it's like, hey, here's your indictment. Of course, first thing, as most defendants, ⁓ this is probably a jarring part of the overall experience. You look and across the top of it, it says, your name versus the United States of America, and you're like, holy sh am I am I allowed to curse on this podcast? ⁓ yeah. Like that is a formidable opponent, okay? The me versus the United States of America. But then there was a weird thing where I read through it and I've been thinking, this whole thing feels so Bizarre and surreal, and like it can't possibly be happening. Is it possible that I'm not remembering something? And so then I read through it, and no, I remembered absolutely everything. And I remember thinking, WTF, like this is what they're charging me for? And you know, my case ultimately ended up implicating free speech and constitutional issues. And there was a passage in there in the indictment that I guess they felt like they had to include. Where a cooperating witness, someone who they had gotten to cooperate because he signed a proffer saying he'd committed three felonies of his own, he basically asserts a quid pro quo. And this was an old friend, a longtime donor to all my political campaigns. I and the public had no idea he'd gotten himself into deeply deep legal trouble. ⁓ in no universe could I have fathomed that I was on a wire at that time. So this guy offers a quid pro quo. If ever there's a moment where like, Your guard is down, you're gonna speak freely, you're talking to an old friend, you have no idea that he's wired up. Like a criminal person, a corrupt person would be like, ⁓ yeah, let it rip. Yeah. I immediately am like, hey, nothing can be a quid pro quo, nothing can be a legal like like Boy Scout Goody Two Shoes. And I see this in the indictment. And I'm like, what what is the real

motivation behind them bringing this case? Like who is trying to feather their resume or what's going on? I just remember being, honestly. Kind of like upbeat and buoyant to be like, this seems like one of the flimsiest like I you know, I have not lived in the world of criminal prosecution, right? But I'm thinking, this seems so flimsy and misguided. So weirdly, despite the very dire circumstance, despite, you know, being in custody at that moment, reading what I was being charged of and the evidence for the first time, I was sort of like, we're gonna beat this. I didn't know it'd be quite as winding a road as it was to beat it, but that was my reaction in that moment. speaker-1: And at the time you're running for mayor in Cincinnati. You were a city councilman. And you'd actually been tapped. Your friend had been wearing a wire for eighteen months? I mean a wire. speaker-0: By the time the throughout the they they ran this really elaborate staying over Yeah, no, sorry. By the time I'm in the holding cell, yeah, he'd been wearing a wire for probably close to two years. Yeah. speaker-1: Which is wild. speaker-0: Yeah, it was ⁓ I had a lot of prosecutors, including people who were you know, there ultimately ended up being some incredible amicus briefs, one of which was by a group that, you know, isn't the most doesn't it's not the most typical thing for them to criticize their nut is former public corruption prosecutors. And I'm talking about like the public corruption chiefs from SDNY. The person who that brief was authored by the person who ran the criminal division for all of DOJ. So people who have Some real chops saying this was a misguided prosecution ⁓ that never should have been brought. Some of these people who are a lot wiser in this realm than I am, they said if the government actually thought they had a strong or winnable case, you do not keep running a sting and running a sting and running a sting because of the resources and frankly the risk to something going haywire and sort of blowing their own cover. So I think, you know, no one's ever The government when they ⁓ err or do wrong, they're not quick to come with an apology. I think that's ⁓ an un speaker-1: Right. Yeah. speaker-0: Mia culpas are are not their specialty, but I think though none of no one's no one's ever said this from the government directly, I think they knew they were, you know, sitting on a very weak case. So their answer to that was let's just keep running at him and running at him and running. speaker-2: Well, they double down, right? If it's weak they have to be harsher. If they're weak they have to put more pressure on you. They have leverage in certain ways. speaker-0: Yeah, so so I mean, if if Attorney General Barr yeah can I I'm sure he was incredibly thoughtful and deliberate with the amicus brief, but if he can read a draft of an amicus brief that has all of the central salient facts and pretty quickly say, This is garbage, not the brief. The ki the prosecution is garbage, the brief is great, I'm gonna add my name to it. Yep. What are the people on the ground thinking to keep doing and I think I think it's a combination of of tunnel vision, of probably like, you know. s not wanting to account for like you know, a sunk costs sort of phenomenon where they're like we have to have something It's pride pride and wanting to have something to show for all the effort that you've put in. speaker-2: That's because it's pride and ego, right? They have to feel as if they've accomplished something. speaker-0: That's right, yes. And I I am forever very grateful to Attorney General Barr for with two other former attorney generals of the United States lending his name to that brief. speaker-1: Well, this is something that's really interesting because I think when we see news about, you know, federal prosecutions at at this moment in time in this country, we think everything is so politicized and that of course whoever the president is or the attorney general knows everything that's happening at the DOJ, right? Like all ninety-two offices and all the line prosecutors, and that's just absolutely not true. And the other thing that I think I didn't really understand about the system until my family was involved in it is that lying prosecutors or US attorneys in you know that run each of the offices around the country, they have enormous influence on the types of cases they want to pursue. Yeah. Right? Like what they're interested in. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. What they what they can develop things like in this case, and tell me if I'm wrong, but no one was investigating you until the man, your your friend, who, you know, admitted that he, you know, committed these speaker-0: To pay off. speaker-1: He had a debt to pay off. He didn't go to prison. Correct. And he wasn't prosecuted. Correct. And so the reason he wasn't is he said speaker-0: Trading for I do not think of myself as a big fish, but clearly the Fed's attitude was and that guy, you know, he was a local real estate developer. He played in the NFL. They were like, ⁓ we'll let that guy get away with crimes he's confessed to if we can get the guy who's gonna be main. The main cooperating witness here was paid ⁓ like healthy five figures to try and can ⁓ for his role in the in the state. So so if you follow the sequence, it's commit this guy. speaker-2: To do the work. For his work. speaker-0: Commits crimes, signs a proffer agreement, doesn't get prosecuted, gets paid to help ensnare innocent people. It's a deal. It is it is a very bizarre thing about a system that we all wish we could be idealistic and feel really good about when people basically say, like, okay, we're gonna throw the full force and weight of the federal government against our perception of this bad deed. But by the way, this thing that's related to that, we're gonna completely let that go, reward it not possible. What message does that send? I tried not to like personalize it relative to ⁓ you

know, the people who prosecuted me. I also they also get to live with the fact that, you know, the Supreme Court, the executive branch of government, three attorneys general of the United States, like the number of people that basically in their own words said, like, you got it wrong, you whiffed, you did the wrong thing here. Now, does that bother them? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Well but maybe maybe not, but I I hope they're ⁓ I hope they wrestle with that a little bit before going on to to, you know, a bad faith prosecution of the next person. Yeah. speaker-2: I think the problem though is there's not really any focus or push to make prosecutors have that sort of well, just to have that thought process of where did I make a mistake? How can I make sure I don't do that again? That conversation doesn't happen. speaker-1: Well, and not only that, I I find it, you know, coming from corporate America, I find it fascinating that you can be at the DOJ and you can pursue a very public prosecution. That say, you know, we were talking about one ⁓ of a former governor in Virginia who signed on as amicus in your case. He was convicted of ⁓ honest services fraud in the Eastern District of Virginia. It was overturned by the Supreme Court nine Nonetheless. speaker-0: I know. speaker-1: the lead prosecutor on that case went on to become years later the US attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia. Right. Right. And so in corporate America, if you, you know, have that kind of track record, like you're not going to be CEO. So it's not only that we're not asking prosecutors to reflect on this, to think about it, we're promoting them despite. Yeah. You know, and that to me is strange. speaker-2: This is a political question too though, 'cause as a politician, I mean the thing that I've seen about all this speaker-0: In my in my former life. Former former life. I'm a writer as I ⁓ speaker-2: Let's call you a recovering politician. Sure. That that so much of that is because I think you have these prosecutors who the the the things about we don't actually look at prosecutors and say, Tell me about your judgment, right? We want to say, gosh, you put bad people behind bars. I like you. And and where in the political system is there any space for realizing that what they're doing is they're exercising judgment and nobody's ever actually checking that judgment. speaker-0: Yeah, well I was gonna ⁓ not a pushback, but sort of the like, this is this is about individuals and their good judgment or their bad judgment, rather than a sort of systemic thing. I do think the scale, like when you have a really large bureaucracy, ⁓ yeah, and it thinks its its initial mission was noble, right? But over time it gets into self-perpet I I my I have worries about bureaucracy that gets in the self-perpetuation mode. And that's when I think things drift from the mission of justice to the mission of, you know, justifying yourself and and winning, right? Even even in the sort of the wrong way. And I think when that machinery is so expansive, it need like it needs to churn out a widget, right? And that widget here is a conviction. It's bringing a prosecution in the first place. So I do think I think the machinery is a little bit bloated and in some ways incentivized to find criminality even where it doesn't exist. speaker-2: I totally agree with that on the federal system. I think the problem that I have even broader is we look at these state court prosecutors. The difference between a federal prosecutor is federal prosecutor never has to bring a case. Right. They could just sit there and never indict a speaker-0: Again, not what the founders intended in any way. speaker-2: But they don't have to, right? States are plenary, they're supposed to take the rule, you know. So if somebody gets shot and killed, state prosecutors have to try to find that person and charge that case. And some of those offices are very small. In some of these counties, you may have four prosecutors, you know, doing kind of protecting the public. You see the same problems there, right? The same lack of accountability, the same unwillingness to accept that they may be wrong. The sense that like our I mean, my favorite phrase is well, our officers is what a a state court prosecutor generally will call the police department the Police witnesses. ⁓ that's all our officer will be here later. Or our our our officer can't. No, that's a witness in your case. Right. Right. Right. Putting yourselves together is a problem. but I think you've touched on many pieces of that. I want to go back to the lack of any sense that what they're doing affects real people's lives. Right. Because going back to the FBI, showing up there, ⁓ sir, let me ⁓ sh let me make sure these cuffs aren't too tight. And they're aware of that immediate moment of human connection, right? Was there ever any sense though from anybody, from the FBI agents, the prosecutors you dealt with, that what they were doing affected much more than just the immediate? That this is a family, this is a person's career, this is a person's sort of life, reputation? And was there ever a sense that there was any sort of respect for that? speaker-0: In short, no, because think about this was everyone playing their and it takes a lot of people, right? So you have your FBI agents, you have your undercovers, you have your US attorneys, you have your people transcribing secret recordings, you have your judge and your courtroom deputy. But collectively, the outcome everyone was working towards was let's separate this man from his wife and from his young children. So someone might say, ⁓ like I was just this, like I was just doing my job. going and putting them in handcuffs that they like you're all part of a whole and anyone who I mean look I I would not be a good judge or prosecutor or FBI agent because I take like families and that bond or any the bond of any human connection. Now obviously like if someone is a

murderer, right? You are preserving families by removing that person from society. So like I'm not some prison abolitionist. I think there are absolutely things that deserve to be punished. But When in a case like mine, obviously like I've underscored my own belief and other people's belief and my innocence, but also where there's maybe not a sort of a victim or different kind of different kinds of transgression. I don't know. I think they don't really take very seriously or grapple with this, to me, profound act of family separation. And I think there are ways that I'm not just talking about innocence here. I'm talking about are there ways that people who have done wrong can and I'm not talking about violent crime here where someone needs to be separated, but where someone can pay back their debt to society, to their victims while like working really hard or serving or trying to earn money to pay off restitution. I d I don't know. I I making sort of even like temporary orphans out of fam or ⁓ it's speaker-2: Yeah. Well the r the rest of the Western world can g has gotten that right, but apparently apparently we haven't. speaker-0: Yeah, there's something deeply anti-family about the American justice system. And yeah, the one yeah, I haven't thought as much about this, but speaking of the rest of the world or this conversation made me think in many countries is it the case that if you bring a prosecution and you lose you like you're paying their attorney's fees. ⁓ yeah. It seems like there could be some simple, elegant thing that at least made someone think, are we bringing like a righteous slam dunk of a case? Or is this case really more about my ambition as a prosecutor? But if I lose, it's gonna look really bad when I have to write a check for a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars. I mean, I wonder if there couldn't be if we had legislators that had the the will and the courage to do it, ⁓ could really change the incentive model for prosecutors, which is sound that's part of what we speaker-1: I think in theory we've done that with forfeiture, right? With CAFRA, with the anti with the F Civil Forfeiture Reform Act. Now of course it's like very similar to what we see with pleas. People end up just kind of settling those cases. But if you if you fight the civil forfeiture and you win, you get your attorney's fees. So it can be done. speaker-0: Isn't it funny that that would be on the civil side? And yet you can separate someone from their family. They can later be determined to be innocent. In my case, my was acquitted ⁓ four acquittals at trial, two convictions. These ⁓ convictions are later vacated unanimously by the Supreme Court of the United States. No apology letter, let alone like speaker-2: Any repayment of fees. No, it it's it's unbelievable. There's not even a federal statute for wrongful conviction. Right. Right. I i so states have done this. Tennessee speaker-0: It's your podcast, but I'm like, w why is that? It just seems

like there's stuff that everyone's common sense would agree. It's when you go down this deeply misguided path, everyone can agree that like the victims, in this case the victims of law enforcement and bad faith prosecutors, they deserve to be made whole as much as you can, because you can never give back, you know, time. speaker-1: Were you ever offered a plea? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, this is I mean, one of the things when I assess other people's at least assess their belief about their own innocence or guilt, are there some people that are like, Yeah, you know, this person definitely did it, but they still go to trial? Maybe. But if you like if you know you did it, you're probably not going through the effort. ⁓ yeah. Potentially the enormous expense, the trial tax where you realize the punishment could be greater. So I fighting doesn't automatically mean that someone is innocent. But it certainly is a step that that points in that direction. And I I'll for myself underscore this a little bit here. I was offered a plea deal that included the possibility of zero prison time. And it was one of the easiest to now I don't people again, I believe innocent people accept plea deals for things they didn't do again to mitigate risk and potential punishment. Especially and for more serious crimes. ⁓ so I I don't wanna ⁓ say that I can't understand why someone would speaker-2: More serious crime. speaker-0: But rejecting that plea deal was one of the easiest decisions of my life. I I my own personal sense of integrity said, Y you, the government, are basically asking me to lie, say that I did something that I didn't do, and then my reward is there might be zero prison time involved. So now again, a lot of people would say, Why, you've been charged with something, the possibility of zero prison time, like that's really good. It w I was again c to go back to where I started, like I was gonna fight this tooth and nail every step of the way. And I am I would do it again to make the government carry their burden. That's another systemic flaw, is that just for them to never have to carry that burden, I think it gives them more capacity for more cases that don't deserve to be brought in the first place. Where is if you had to run the whole gauntlet and prove to, you know, a judge or a jury of peers, whoever, or and get it passed in appeals court, that really a ⁓ a prosecutor I'm also very close with. One of the things they said about my case is they were like, Even if you thought it was, you know, murky and she did not think it was murky, but like there's no room for murky. Like there are enough righteous case. Isn't there you know, there's enough that's prosecutable out there? Like go s foil and stymie like a terrorist plot or stop a bad guy from doing something rather than so she her point was like even the sort of murky ones, if you're a good prosecutor, like go go, you know, solve a speaker-1: Real crime. And beyond that, you know, ⁓ or another layer on this, right, is that even if you're not convicted, the process is the punishment. So for example, with you, you were in city council, you were running for mayor, and you were indicted. And before you were convicted ⁓ speaker-0: To withdraw from a race, I was considered like the slam dunk favorite to become the mayor. Yeah. I've never I I totally agree with your point because, you know, I'm very grateful for the blessings in my life, ⁓ my wife, my children, you know, my health, it's sort of like the foundation of things. I've actually never spent almost any time bemoaning like there's an alternate universe in which I should be the mayor. And I I loved and really cared about public service and I believe I would have done a good job and was in it for the right reasons. That hasn't felt like sort of as much of the loss to me versus, you know, being separated from my family for four and a half months. That is something that no one ever gets to give back to me. But I totally agree with you. I mean, if if the the process, the amount of upheaval, reputational, familial, professional, if you don't have a strong sort of like spiritual discipline, like it can spiritually leave you feeling adrift. Now, again, I I worked on my spiritual muscles. So yeah, there's no Yeah, there I I I I agree. I agree. speaker-1: It's interesting too, a question, you know, that I struggled with going through this process, my relationship with ⁓ this country. 'Cause you mentioned like looking at this piece of Yeah, and like looking at this piece of paper, you know, it's like United States of America versus PG Sinfeld. It's like that's my country. Why are they against me and or my husband or whomever it is? And ultimately the way I came out of it was like I feel like I am more of a patriot and more of an American because having walked through this system and tested it and tried it. speaker-0: Patriotism. speaker-1: How do you feel about it? speaker-0: I would go back to what my assistant US attorney friend said when you know being prosecuted is gonna change your views about government. And to get to the punchline, I do favor a more limited view. My values are as compassionate as they've ever been. My views about how large and centralized and bureaucratic I want the federal government to be. It's just that that has changed. But think it's a really important distinction. So that's my own view about government. In terms of my patriotism, ⁓ it's undimin like I am proud to be an American and I love America. And my answer to that is because like America is not the people, it's not the person who's the US attorney for this district. It's not the person who's the president. I mean, that's an expression of the people's sort of like orientation in any given moment. But to me, I mean America's beautiful because of like the idea and the ideal. And that's a place where, you know, I had the chance to fight, right? Like you get to dis your patriotism can be expressed in all the ways you disagree

about a messed up system, right? Like that's America. America's not the bad people that might sometimes fill different government seats. America is an idea written down 250 years ago. And like that I can say is remains beautiful today, even you know, with the painful things that sort of I I went through. speaker-1: How did you walk through this with your family by you? You are one of four kids. Yeah. You have a wife, you had small children, you have parents. Yeah. What was what was that like? speaker-0: a lot that I could say there. I'll maybe focus on on two pieces of it. ⁓ and I I've I've shared this a few other places, but when I learned cause you know, I got the call from my lawyer saying I talked to the US attorney and you're gonna need to drive home at the crack of dawn tomorrow to be arrested. I am in Cleveland when I get that call and I'm took the call like in a downstairs mud room sort of basement and I walk upstairs to this house we were renting when my wife was doing a medical residency. And I say, like, you know, this is a total shock to me. And like I kind of can't believe these words are coming out of my mouth. I'm gonna be arrested and indicted tomorrow. And you think about all of the things that a spouse could like immediately be really angry, immediately withdraw, be sad, like confused, start peppering me with questions. The first words out of my wife's mouth were for better or worse. She takes my hand in hers and repeats, you know, our wedding vows from that day. I know I it's I so I just wanna say with that as that that game No no I I ⁓ it is speaker-2: That's bar, folks. That's the bar. If you ⁓ I think you're thinking about relationships, this is what you need. Yeah. Look I I have you thought about being speaker-0: I'm I'm no, I'm not I'm not a person to give marital advice, but it has no it what it's made me realize if like you know saying your wedding vows as we all do on our wedding day, it's great and you should mean them, but like do you fulfill them when they are put to the test? Like that what do you what live your vows on the worst, hardest day of your marriage? And my wife did not hesitate. I mean, like she reached out her hands and said, for better or worse. And I think in that moment, the amount of ⁓ like speaker-2: I think you just still. speaker-0: strength and freedom and just relief that that gave me probably again there's maybe some sort of like dystopian scenario where this would never have been Sarah, but like you're getting peppered and yelled at and like sort of how could you do this to our family without knowing all the details. Like that might have set me I I not just because of that, but that kind of summoned like created a virtuous psych or that actually summoned my best self. Throughout my hardest days. So ⁓ Sarah is the this horrible prosecution. ⁓ Sarah, you know, Joan's Day is heroic. The attorney generals were heroic and meeky. Like, I'm proud of my own fight. Sarah is the hero of this story. ⁓ more ⁓ somber and grim, my ⁓ father played a huge role in my life. We had, you know, father-son relationships. I now have three sons of my own. They can be complicated. ⁓ I love my dad. He had a big role in my life, big role in my career. You know, we could also knock heads every once in a while, totally unrelated to my prosecution. But ⁓ four months after I'd been indicted, he got a diagnosis of a aggressive, fast-moving liver cancer and passed away early on in this process. And, you know, he had a f he had a very full life. He packed Paul Sittenfeld packed five lifetimes into 73 years. ⁓ so I'm grateful for the life he had. I think there were moments when I, you know, like we want our father there, right? Yeah. ⁓ so there were moments when I missed him and I thought, God, I I'm going through this hellscape and I'm doing it sort of, you know, down apparent. There were other moments when I thought, I am glad you are, you know, with our Heavenly Father and not down here to, you know, see your son as the defendant in a courtroom or have to witness, I mean, in so many ways, like the local media. Colludes basically with the government. Yes. And again, in an area with no accountability. Like I I hope that the children of some local journalists like go to college and get a great education and ⁓ go on and save the world with the funds that like the clickbaity stories about me help fuel. But you know, I'm my dad am I glad that my dad was spared having to sort of stew in some of those. So you know the familial journey, it's a complicated one. ⁓ And then obviously, you know, my sons were very young by the time that I was actually imprisoned. So we called it, we really thought about how are we gonna socialize this. And I had talked to other people who said, don't even bring them there, like they shouldn't even see that setting. I said, I'm their father. I need to stay in their life. We called it daddy camp. ⁓ I did say, I had some people say, we explained to our kids, Daddy's going to like an adult timeout. I was like, we're not saying that bullshit. speaker-2: I ain't doing that timeout. They're gonna be like, Why are you in timeout? speaker-0: I'm gonna be like, Daddy was very brave while the government, you know, tried to pull some real bullshit on him. So I so anyway, so I am I wish if I could bottle up the ⁓ love and support, starting with my family, but also from a wider universe of people. I wish that's the one thing I wish I could share. with everyone who is churned through, you know, the system in America. Because some people are innocent, some people did it. Some people it's up the middle, but like, you know, no one's gonna become a better person by feeling like isolated. So I I the the net net is I was this was very difficult on them. I ultimately absolutely came to feel that my incarceration was harder on my wife than it was on me. Now Not getting to tuck your kids in at night, like again, that is a sort of singular thing, but keeping it all

together while you're worried about your husband. So I tried to do as much as I and I was strangely very okay in prison. I was like making cheesecake and leading Bible study and writing and making friends and stuff. So I projected as much okayness as I could so that my okayness would give them the piece to sort of be okay there. ⁓ yes, it's it's a complicated journey. It doesn't just ⁓ affect the defendant, right? It the whole family goes through it together. And like they're innocent, right? They're as innocent as innocent. So it's I that's the other reason why I wish judges would sort of say, you're not just passing judgment and imposing a sentence on this person. Like, I'm not trying to make this sound overly like like ⁓ put numbers to it, but my wife's a cancer doctor. Yeah. She literally saves people's lives who are suffering from cancer. So by making her overnight ostensibly a single mother, giving her less capac I was like, should you as a judge sort of think about the big picture on this? But it's the system also seems to reward narrow thinking. speaker-2: Yeah, I the the narrow thinking being that imprisonment is is the what punishment it it has to be. Imprisonment with p that's the only type of timeout we have. Right. Right. And and and for so many nonviolent offenses it's just it makes no sense. I it. speaker-1: It's the only time I speaker-0: You see a lot of defendants do this. ⁓ we try to be very thoughtful about it. Say, ⁓ there was a line I've never forgotten there's there was a line in my pre sentence investigation report, right? So an agent of the court which for folks speaker-2: who are listening that don't know, there's a report written between the time you're convicted and sentencing that goes to the court that gives background about you and generally talks about the circumstances of the offense. speaker-0: Who's this person? Yeah. Kind of what's their life been like? What are the specifics of the offense exactly? There's a line, and this is an agent of the court. There's a line in my pre-sentence investigation report that says there are no identifiable victims associated with this crime. Well, I strongly agree with the sentiment. What a disorienting thing to hear when you're like, wait, I've been prosecuted, I've been convicted, and the court itself is saying there's not even a victim here. So we go as part of sentencing. Yeah. speaker-2: The public. speaker-0: Right. So we so we go as part of sentencing and put together these very thoughtful proposals where I say, I will be a unpaid full time volunteer for one was a faith-based organization, one was a veterans organization. Say, this can be my my punishment. Like I will be out doing good for society and the vulnerable every single day. At night, I will be a husband and father. Like you can trim my sails, I'm not gonna be mayor. Of course, they in in what world is it more logical to say, No, go to prison. Prison's the only answer. speaker-2: That's the only answer. We our system does not app appear to have another answer. speaker-0: Yeah. I hope I mean I I hope that in I another Amiki was a former S DNY prosecutor and he has some line to me where he's like, In a hundred years, I hope it doesn't take this long we'll look back on this and it will seem like futile. Like it will seem like like did we really like ⁓ great grandpa, did we really used to throw send people where they're working Yeah, like throw ⁓ in the dungeon, right? Sort of things. speaker-2: But it is. I you've been there. I mean you were in a nicer version of that, but these prisons are not nice places to be. speaker-0: Yeah, look, I was in a camp, so I don't want to ⁓ diminish the difference between a camp where you're basically safe. There's freedom of movement from a place where like your moment to moment ⁓ safety might be much more imperiled. But I'll also say I mean ninety nine point nine percent of the punishment to me is it's family separation. It's separation from loved ones. I mean, like I can sleep, you know, on the ground on a bed of nails if I'm with my wife and my children. So the the punishment is being separated from your loved ones. ⁓ speaker-1: After you were convicted of some of the counts in your indictment and acquitted of others. Which I want to go back to in a second. But between that period of when you were well, when you were acquitted, sentenced before you reported, what were you most afraid of? Like what were you thinking of in that period of this process? speaker-0: Four acquittals, two convictions, yeah. Sorry, ⁓ after the sentencing and before reporting to prison? I had ⁓ I always liked being a student, so I kind of approached the, you know, like very undesirable looming circumstance of reporting to prison is like, well, I'm gonna really, really do my homework. So I'm calling all sorts of guys who I hadn't known before me, like, tell me everything. So they walk me through like, you know, don't barge into the TV room and go change in the channel. Like that, you might get your ass cut. I mean some intuitive stuff. ⁓ they had different opinions. I did again, I talked to some guys that were like, don't have your family visit. Other guys they were like, of course have your family visit. So I think I gave myself there is no way of fully socializing like entering that foreign new environment for the first time. But I tried to give myself a base of knowledge to sort of calm my nerves. The hardest thing was one of my you're not supposed to cry in prison. I probably cried like sort of cathartic and and happy tears as part of this Bible study. But maybe the moment of peak catharsis is when you first get there, there are, I just wrote a ⁓ essay in the Wall Street Journal about, you know, that includes there are a lot of contraband cell phones. I made a dimension speaker-2: Many, many. speaker-0: Many, many contraband cell phones in prison. And by the way, a lot of these guys are using them to stay in touch with the family cell phone.

So I'm like Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm I'm not passing judgment on that at all. ⁓ I didn't want to do anything that could in any universe risk extending my stay. So I determined like I'm even if it's offered and it was, I'm not gonna have a ⁓ use a contraband cell phone. You don't just get to go in there and be like, Okay, one eight hundred call Sarah Sittenfeld sort of thing. I think it was trying to soak up family time. Yeah. speaker-2: Talk to do it, yeah. speaker-0: educate myself to the degree possible about what's prison gonna be like and how should I approach it. Now, one other thing I will add there, the collective feedback I got was basically keep your head down, don't be getting up in other people's business. PG, you were a politician. Don't like be like running for class president in in prison. Don't don't join Premier. And I heated that for about forty eight hours. And then maybe it was just FCI Ashland and you know that collection of men at that time. speaker-1: Mayor of it. speaker-0: I was like, this is not actually what I have to do. And I actually I can add something to this space by being who I am, which is like curious and a good listener and warm and consoling. I mean, these men are going through really hard times. They don't need another guy who's like head down, keep it to myself. So ⁓ by probably 48 hours in, I was like, I am here to soak up all of the this place that no one wants to end up. I'm gonna soak up all of the humanity here. So a lot of my pre-prison education of don't do this, don't do that, I ended up chucking that playbook very quickly upon arrival. I don't wanna say my life currently is is buffered because, you know, I visit prisons and I'm I'm I interact with a broad swath of humanity still. But day in and day out, I don't quite have the proximity. Like a guy who I could cheer up and make a difference in his day was five feet away in prison, right? And I I don't wanna say I miss that because like I don't miss that place that put me there. But there is something, I mean, you know, ⁓ Brian Stevenson to me is like the the most eloquent person on this like there is something really redemptive and powerful in proximity to other people's suffering. And let me tell you, there is a lot of proximity to a lot of suffering in prison. And that can kind of alchemize what could otherwise just be a horrible experience and turn it into something redeeming and beautiful in its own way. speaker-2: the reason all that that suffering, that sort of lack of humanity, when did you first feel that in the process happening to you, that they were trying to sort of dehumanize you? speaker-0: W when I was, you know, put in handcuffs and ⁓ I mean I don't know if that'll be on video. ⁓ like again my weapon in the house would have been like maybe a fly swatter. I don't know, was it an electric fly swatter? My hands were not in front of me. ⁓ I was such a threat that my hands were put behind me. I remember getting down to the US Marshall cell. I'm like six foot two. Maybe in my middle age, I've shrunk a quarter of an inch. But steel steel ankle shackles were like you're trying to take, you know, a a step forward and like, you know, for my stri going more than a foot, you feel it like digging and so I would say so much of the pro and again, this is like this guy's crime was trying to help revitalize a blighted downtown building, ankle shackle. I mean to me Yeah, I mean I I think this the process is meant to dehumanize. And that's why now speaker-1: Are you serious? Yeah. Ankle shot? speaker-2: If you believe he did it. If you believe he did it to have him a face mask, Cole Hannibal Lecter. speaker-0: I mean, my favorite one of my favorite things to write about in the writings I'm doing is to like, in this inhumane process and process that's meant to sort of like stifle and and you know, like take people's humanity out of them, is to really highlight that like humanity is perseverant, right? Like, you know, the the grass growing the the flower growing out of the crack sidewalk. Like I that's a good metaphor for prison in some ways, 'cause the camaraderie, the culinary innovation, like The Bible studies, the pickup basketball, guys and women in women's prisons, which I've also visited. ⁓ like they find a way, but I would say it's like it's not when did I think that the process was trying to sort of dehumanize from the get-go, how consistently across the board. The the thing that I most again, ⁓ this wasn't this didn't come as a total surprise, but there was a really palpable sense of these guys wanna feel useful and like they have something to give. And You know, maybe a lot of the guys shouldn't have even been there and they could be sort of like put to societal greater use, not in the context of prison. But I was thinking of giving more ways of letting guys feel like having someone just sit idle when they could be putting some skill to use that makes someone else better. And I kid you not like the culinary innovation, the guys who were taking care of dogs as part of a dog training. I mean, guys had all sorts of skills that that skill languishing when it could be. benefiting someone like forget it being good for that person. This could be helping someone else's life. There's just a lot of there's a lot of wastefulness in the system. speaker-1: That maybe that was a better word than I said of boredom of kind of like there's so much skill here that let me tell you. speaker-0: Of course taxpayer wastefulness. That's that's right, but huge. speaker-1: Waste of human capital. Absolutely. Yeah. So along those lines, transitioning back into kind of like what happens after you're out of prison. Like you Okay, so you were pardoned. speaker-0: Yes, although that's not w how and why I left prison. speaker-1: Yes. So talk about but I the reason I But I was pardoned yes. Yeah. The reason I well I first let's talk about the pardon and then I wanna ask a follow up question, but you didn't apply

for pardon. speaker-0: I did not apply for a pardon. I there's a full formal pro I didn't I didn't send a letter. I didn't fill out paperwork. I didn't, you know, do whatever the DOJ process is. But there's very good reason why I didn't apply for a pardon. Not because I wouldn't have welcomed a pardon. ⁓ I had been released early by a panel of three federal judges from my sixteen month sentence because they said there is a meaty question here that while it's being adjudicated and resolved, ⁓ this person should not be incarcerated. Kudos to the panel for at least do it for at least doing that. speaker-1: Because some people go to prison even if they appeal their conviction. Some people are sent, you know, to prison to begin their sentence. Some people aren't sent to prison and are allowed to be out. speaker-0: Correct they had bond pending appeal. I was not granted that. Yeah. But the reason we didn't ⁓ I was not pursuing or had not applied for a pardon was because we were full speed ahead. Like, let's go win our case and set a new precedent at the Supreme Court of the United States. And I will say, Litzen, amazing law firm, Jones Day, amazing law firm. They took this case on pr entirely pro bono for the appeal. They put their absolute top guns, best guy, I mean By the end of it, my counsel of record, you know, early in his life, he'd been the solicitor general of the United States. So it's not that I wouldn't have welcomed a grant of clemency. It's that we truly believe we're like, a wrong has happened here. The greatest lawyers on the planet, alongside Litzen, are taking this to the highest court in the land. We're gonna win. And we're gonna win 9-0 ⁓ as as is we deserve to happen. So when and we're look, in the back of my head, if it was like, If that doesn't work out, would we throw a hail I never thought it would be possible that I would get a part in for a whole lot of reasons. So would it have been like a fourth quarter time winding out, hail Mary, dear God, I don't want to go back to prison sort of scenario? Yes, but our we were 100% SCOTUS focused. So no, no one people people do not believe this. And I kind of understand why not, because they're like, who gets a part in when You know, this is the Trump administration and he was a like liberal Democrat in office and he didn't seem to do I didn't hire a lobbyist. I didn't like, you know, do all the things that people seem to do. And and by the way, like I don't blame anyone for pursuing clemency for their freedom by, you know, however they're going about it. Did not do any of that stuff. So pe but no and because of that reason, no one was more shocked than I was to receive the pardon. speaker-1: So where were you? How did it happen? speaker-0: Pardon I remember vividly. I was working from my home office. It's around four o'clock in the afternoon. And ⁓ I end up talking with one of my Jones Day lawyers who over the phone, you know, like I'd never seen pardon verbiage before. He reads me the

like, you know, therefore I I should have it memorized, right? But it's just like it's a paragraph. So Real proclamation with a nice with a nice thick sharpie signature at the bottom. And he reads it, and I just kind of remember there have been speaker-2: It's a real ⁓ speaker-0: I've probably overused the word surreal, but a lot of these moments have been pretty surreal. Having your when you think you're about to go win a Supreme Court case, but you also realize if I don't, I could face reincarceration. My wife, the hero of the story, happens to be eight months pregnant with our third child at the time. I know the date was ⁓ May twenty eighth of twenty twenty five. We can check our calendars for what day that actually was. My Jones Day lawyer ⁓ reads me the verbiage of the part and then later sends, maybe like ten minutes later, sends a screenshot ⁓ in my inbox. So I'm like, okay, I'm actually looking at a copy of the pardon now. My wife ends up getting home from ⁓ you know, her work day at the hospital like maybe 15 minutes later. And she's, you know, normal, she's like, okay, PG's work in the office. So she goes to our bedroom. I walk, I don't know, 30 feet and I go into the bedroom and I'm like, you know, sweetie, this is also gonna sound kind of kind of crazy. speaker-2: Well we were both like bracing like speaker-0: Yeah, and but I the the thing I've always remembered about walking into our bedroom and seeing my incredibly pregnant wife like lying there, I don't know, getting ready to like check her non-work email or something, is being like, This is joyous and a huge relief. We're getting ready to welcome another human in a month. You're gonna get to be there in a month, but also having the feeling like, what a weird what a weird path you've traveled by the time you're telling your spouse, hey, the most powerful person in the world Exercising this truly and basically like godlike power enshrined by our founding fathers in the constitution. That power and like a signature unfolding the Oval Office and your life have intersected and the result is freedom, clemency, not being re separated from your family. It was just like there was a lot to that moment. So we were both like, Wow, this is great. Wow, this is isn't this weird? This is so weird. Like this. And then and then speaker-1: Trump and his Sharpie. speaker-0: And then ⁓ the other reason I sort of remember all this vividly, I had a pre-planned trip taking one of my sons camping into the Redwood Forest. So I find out that day, and that's I don't like, you know, put a billboard up because I'm still I'm grateful, but I'm also like processing wow, what just happened. I get on a flight, and I'm not the kind of guy that like buys internet on flights, and then I go into the Redwood Forest. So basically like hundreds and hundreds of speaker-2: Message. speaker-0: Craziest messages. Well, you know, like my prosecution and fighting it and all of that, like, it didn't mean that it'd been saturation local news. Yeah. It didn't mean national news. But when Donald Trump does something like this is very, very big news. I mean, it covers sort of like the most on steroids aspect of this entire thing. So literally hundreds of messages are pouring in when I either don't have cell phone reception or I'm like on a plane cut off. So there's this sort of comical like This bombshell has been dropped and I'm not even in a position to like feel the incoming. speaker-1: Interesting. It's just interesting the way the universe unfolds that way of like you you were gone, you were going to the woods. That's interesting. There is so much news about Donald Trump's use of the pardon power. You know, about people saying it's pay to play, all of these different things. You obviously wouldn't fall into that bucket of people saying it's pay to play and you have different politics than Donald Trump. Like what do you think about Trump's use of the pardon power? speaker-0: I favor, I mean, only he in like his own mind can say, here's why I granted clemency to this person, here's why I granted clemency to that person. So like if P. G. Sittenfeld were the president of the United States, like would I pardon this person, but not part like maybe we would have come down in different places. I favor, and again, this goes back to like, I mean, if you are Christian, I'm Catholic, I mean it's kind of all about grace, right? So I fought really, really hard. For justice. Justice is when the deserved thing, the right thing, happens. Doesn't happen enough in our system as it is. Absolutely. Grace is when the undeserved thing happens. And you know, some of your listeners, viewers might not necessarily agree with this. Like, we all need grace and forgiveness in our lives. So I actually people, I mean, I see why it's been controversial, but I favor an expansive use of this tool. For grace. Our country needs more grace. And by the way, like we have the pardon because Alexander Hamilton fought really hard for it. One of the like, you know, primary early users of the pardon ⁓ power and and presidential clemency was George Washington, the whiskey rebellion, and then Abe Lincoln after the Civil War. Like, I think people want to see it as a legal political tool, and it is a legal political tool. I'm really interested in this, ⁓ you know. This, you know, again, constitutionally enshrined power, can it be a grace and healing tool? So I appreciate, I mean, of course, I'm grateful, incredibly grateful, that I was a recipient of it. We all we ultimately went to the Supreme Court and got vindication there as well. But I hope he can I don't know. I hope that other that future occupants of that office look and say, I don't have to if we have a messed up system. And if you don't think it's kind of a messed up system, you're willfully putting your head in the sand a little bit. And I have a tool that can be a balm and a corrective for it. I hope other people might look at that and say, I can

be more imaginative, more expansive. Absolutely. And again, like I know people want to make sort of like transactional transactional accusations and stuff like I I am interested in it is a tool for yeah, yeah, as I as I great grace, forgiveness, ⁓ healing. I think it can be that. speaker-2: Also you obviously didn't give up, but a question I like to end our most of our conversations on is if you went back to that first day when you when you found out when you got the call that that they're looking at you, ⁓ you know, you were told by your prosecutor friend that you're gonna view government differently. What would PG now want to go back and tell you back then? A lesson, an advice, you know, what what can what would you like to sort of pass back in time through this process? speaker-0: Some people might want sort of like, you know, profound legal advice or navigating the system. I think I would probably say more something about like the flame that burns inside all of us, which is like every struggle and hardship is an invitation. Like it might be an invitation for personal growth and learning, might be to discover that like you're tougher or more resilient than you thought you is. But I I think we live in a country right now that's sort of like You know, pathologizes the hardship that is baked into the human existence. I would say what's happening to you might be a walk through hell. But if you are lucky, get the people you love and like get arm in arm, walk through hell with them, and let this be like a journey of growth. So I I think I would now I'm biased because I I kind of feel like I did that and I I'm proud of myself for doing that. Like it's not easy. speaker-2: Or are you a time traveller? speaker-0: Yeah, few ⁓ current me went back and told me, no, I think I sort of, I think I intuited that that was the person who's now my spiritual mentor. I mean, the first, as you all know, it's dizzying and disorienting to be indicted. So that first month was a blur of phone calls with lawyers and getting briefing and finding old emails and doing all this crazy stuff. I like sort of took a beat in the ⁓ you know, one day about a month in and I sent off an email. To a guy named Cyrus Habib. People should Google him. He's very inspirational. He had been the lieutenant governor of Washington State and left to become a Jesuit priest. I mean, this guy, David Axerod, was like, he's the next Obama. This guy could have been the president of the United States. He truly could have been the president of the United States and instead takes vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, right? So a and I sent him an email and I was basically like, I know what lies ahead of me is gonna be a legal journey and a political journey. But I think it's also like I need it to be a spiritual journey too. Like I need to sort of find a way to exercise those muscles. And I think I probably got the phrase from him of like, you know, see every struggle as an invitation to hard work. And then I'll say, okay, an invitation to what? But if it was easy, then it wouldn't be a journey, right? So some of us sitting with that. So I think I think I intuited that at some level and ended up doing it. But I would say to someone else who gets the worst news they could ever fathom. today in the form of an indictment. Maybe not the worst news, but like a really, really bad piece of news. I would say there are gonna be opportunities in this to come through whole and complete and different and in some ways even even better than you are. Don't skip over that 'cause there's gonna be a lot of horrible shit that you have to deal with. Don't pass on the good stuff too. That's great. speaker-2: Well, I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. speaker-0: Thanks for having me on. Yeah, great to be with you both. ⁓ speaker-2: This is the Target Podcast. Every week we're going to sit down with someone who's been in the crosshairs of an investigation, sometimes federal, sometimes state. People have been indicted, exonerated in some cases, some who have been pardoned, some who have been convicted, and some who've been acquitted. speaker-1: This isn't about guilt or innocence. It's about what they wish they'd known on day one. speaker-2: Every single one of the people we're going to talk to has a day one story. That's because most people don't understand how this system works. speaker-1: Until they're standing inside of it.