Fuld transskription af Bitcoin Mining and the Revitalization of Venezuela w/ Alessandro Cecere (El Sultán de Bitcoin)

00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:35,860 about 2014 Venezuela, we're still speaking about almost 100% subsidized electricity rates, 53 00:04:35,860 --> 00:04:41,920 retail electricity rates so basically that's what helped click bitcoin mining in the country 54 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:49,640 we're also talking about the era when the a6 were starting to come out so we're speaking about the 55 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:56,180 end miner s1 the end miner s3 potentially so i first started as a home miner in the country 56 00:04:56,180 --> 00:05:01,740 my dad was his business he was an architect and he had a small business so he had a ton of like 57 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:08,240 custom-built PCs with GPUs, and I used a couple of those GPUs for GPU mining purposes. 58 00:05:09,060 --> 00:05:13,540 And that's what helped us realize the potential of Bitcoin mining. So we eventually scaled that 59 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:19,260 to all the way up to 200 ASIC miners at some point. So my dad and I co-founded one of the 60 00:05:19,260 --> 00:05:23,540 first Bitcoin mining farms in the country, potentially one of the first in Latin America 61 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:30,760 as well. But back then, we're still talking about a time when the Venezuelan state really wasn't 62 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:36,380 aware or paying attention too much to Bitcoin mining activity in the country. You were still 63 00:05:36,380 --> 00:05:41,200 just like, you know, this weird dude just playing with magic internet money. What are you doing? 64 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:45,840 You're wasting your family's money on over the internet, that type of stuff. But, you know, 65 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:53,920 we did that until 2015. By 2015, we're talking about a period where, you know, inflation had 66 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,940 always been rampant since I was born in the country. But it was like, you know, gradually 67 00:05:58,940 --> 00:06:04,660 catching up to all the way to eventually hyperinflation in 2017 so when you're talking 68 00:06:04,660 --> 00:06:13,000 about that period you're you saw increasing interest in general from venezuelans in bitcoin 69 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:20,760 mining but for the purpose of getting a dollar-based revenue so yeah so you know you have 70 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:27,200 capital controls in the country uh inflation is going up salaries are still like capped or 71 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:32,920 regulate it. So as let's say you're a college teacher, if you were mining Bitcoin, you were 72 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:38,220 making more money than being a college teacher or sometimes a doctor in the country. So that's 73 00:06:38,220 --> 00:06:43,200 how I would describe those initial stages of Bitcoin mining back then in the country. 74 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,120 Yeah, because I know that I think someone like Mauricio from Ledin, he often tells his story, 75 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:53,660 but he didn't start mining until what, 2016 or right before the government cracked down on it, 76 00:06:53,660 --> 00:06:56,660 if I'm not mistaken, maybe a year or two before the government cracked down. 77 00:06:56,740 --> 00:06:59,380 You were a bit earlier than him, if I'm getting this right. 78 00:06:59,900 --> 00:07:01,200 That is exactly right. 79 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,520 Yeah, I cashed out of my Bitcoin mining operations in 2015, 80 00:07:05,780 --> 00:07:10,940 specifically because it was starting to go into the purview of the Venezuelan estate. 81 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:12,360 Okay. 82 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,160 When you cashed out, did you or your family leave at that point? 83 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:18,340 Where did you go? 84 00:07:18,420 --> 00:07:19,420 I mean, you had some Bitcoin. 85 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,340 Were you trading it for dollars to then be able to leave? 86 00:07:22,340 --> 00:07:26,360 And obviously, please feel free to not include any details you can include here. 87 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:32,140 But but just kind of curious as to so you have this capital, you have this magic Internet money as you refer to it. 88 00:07:32,220 --> 00:07:33,360 What do you do with it at that point? 89 00:07:34,020 --> 00:07:46,680 Yeah, I still stayed in the country because, you know, the state of things wasn't that dire, I would say, as to, you know, 2017 or maybe 2019 pre-COVID when the electrical grid started failing and that type of stuff. 90 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:55,100 So back then, there was still this discussion going over what we call Bitcoin Twitter of self-custody. 91 00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:02,780 How do you properly custody your Bitcoins yourself, especially after the MTGox debacle back then, right? 92 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,160 So hardware wallets were still like a nascent thing. 93 00:08:06,780 --> 00:08:10,940 So that mostly got me interested into custody solutions. 94 00:08:10,940 --> 00:08:15,960 And so I spun up a small Bitcoin custody startup in the country. 95 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:21,060 And that's what I dedicated my time for before 11, Israel, and eventually 2020. 96 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:23,320 Interesting. 97 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,500 Okay, so you were custodying Bitcoin for other people who had it, like a custodial service for Bitcoin. 98 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:35,920 Yeah, I was helping small fintechs and some banks in the country figure out how to set up their own Bitcoin custody setup 99 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:41,620 so that they could, for the banks and their small informal remittance providers, 100 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,680 they were already using Bitcoin for cross-border payments. 101 00:08:47,300 --> 00:08:50,940 So they would buy Bitcoin with Bolivars and then sell them, 102 00:08:51,540 --> 00:08:54,460 it's still on local Bitcoins for dollars or euros. 103 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,100 And so the idea on the pitch was basically, 104 00:08:57,260 --> 00:09:00,500 hey, why don't you custody a part of your Bitcoins yourself 105 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:02,540 and

remove a counterparty risk? 106 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:03,640 So that was mostly it. 107 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:05,500 Okay, very, very cool. 108 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:14,080 And there was a decent market for that, because I feel like with Bitcoin in Venezuela, as you said, there doesn't seem to be like a ton of people who were into it before. 109 00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:19,060 Well, I don't know of anyone before you. As you said, you built one of the biggest farms in the country, if not in Latin America. 110 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:30,260 Was there a learning curve with this or did Venezuelans, because of capital controls and because of the remittance market developing, did they intuitively sort of understand the value in Bitcoin as a result? 111 00:09:30,260 --> 00:09:36,360 uh it definitely helped still when you're talking about a new thing like a multi-signature and hey 112 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:41,760 here's this different vendors etc here's how we source these vendors securely uh there's a bit of 113 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:51,860 a learning curve as well okay um okay let's fast forward you leave venezuela in 2020 it's 2025 i 114 00:09:51,860 --> 00:09:55,960 think it happened i'm sorry happened last month i think with maduro time moves quite quickly these 115 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:04,780 days. Six years later, Maduro's captured by the United States government for good reason. I think 116 00:10:04,780 --> 00:10:09,280 people have very mixed feelings about this. When I say people, everyone from Venezuelans to New 117 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:14,100 Yorkers, I personally attended Maduro's arraignment in the Southern District of New York, 118 00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:20,660 was really, really kind of blown away to see a protest outside when I arrived, which I wasn't 119 00:10:20,660 --> 00:10:27,680 expecting with Venezuelans waving a Trump for king flag chanting USA while Americans are saying 120 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:33,500 free Venezuela release President Nicolas Maduro. My brain has not been the same since that moment. 121 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:38,480 It was quite a moment in time. But I did post something on Instagram and said, you know, 122 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,360 before you critique Venezuelans for being happy about the fact that Maduro was gone, 123 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:49,160 not necessarily happy about how it happened, but just happy that he's gone. Please understand the 124 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,180 damage that this human being did to Venezuela, obviously as a predecessor, as someone who 125 00:10:54,180 --> 00:10:55,740 followed in Chavez's footsteps. 126 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,400 Could you talk a little bit about, in your opinion, how the average Venezuelan feels 127 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,220 about the current state of things in Venezuela? 128 00:11:03,140 --> 00:11:03,660 Positive. 129 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,400 And I think there's balls that, you know, somewhere over 70 percent approval of a U.S. 130 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:08,920 intervention. 131 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,800 So look, different reasons as to why, obviously. 132 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:23,340 But when Maduro took power, the debt, Venezuela's debt, was circling around $32 billion. 133 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,140 Today, it stands at $180 billion. 134 00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:33,740 And the big issue is, you know, back then, that was like 30% GDP. 135 00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:37,760 But GDP contracted 70% as well during the Maduro administration. 136 00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:41,580 So right now, our debt is 180% of GDP. 137 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:44,300 That's a lot. 138 00:11:44,860 --> 00:11:44,940 Yeah. 139 00:11:45,020 --> 00:11:45,160 Yeah. 140 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:59,920 So, you know, look, also, I think it is illegal under Venezuela law for the central bank to finance the government's deficit, basically, to finance the government when they're in deficit. 141 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:03,260 Or the state oil company, PDVSA. 142 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,220 Right now, the Venezuelan central bank is financing both. 143 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:16,560 like perevesa and the government are still being able to run it to a great extent because it is 144 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:21,500 being finalized but it is being financed i'm sorry by the venison central bank's money printer 145 00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:29,180 basically so it's new issuance of money and this is what for the most part has you know created 146 00:12:29,180 --> 00:12:37,020 this hyperinflationary problem in the country um the fact that they continue to finance things like 147 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:40,440 this. Essentially, there's no real income or no industry in the country. They're just printing 148 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:49,520 money to keep these industries going, essentially. Exactly. Interesting. So generally speaking, 149 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,500 Venezuelans are happy Maduro's gone. I know that there are some people who have, you know, 150 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:58,140 obviously mixed feelings or against it. As you said, it's about maybe 70% of the population or so. 151 00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:06,620 It's not just going to be that a switch gets flicked right now. Actually, before we go there, 152 00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:14,560 Delcey Rodriguez, the current, the former vice president under Maduro and now the acting president of the country. 153 00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:18,340 Your personal thoughts on her? What is the average Venezuelan think about her as well? 154 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,460 She's closely tied to the previous administration. 155 00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:29,380 And you could argue that it's the same administration to a great extent. 156 00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:34,280 It's just being audited and fully controlled by the U.S. government at this point. 157 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:46,240 So I think in general, we don't favor her being the president. I think in general, we see as illegitimate Maduro's

presidency, all of them. 158 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:57,420 But let's specifically talk about the last one right in the last elections, which, you know, the proof is there that the opposition leader in Mundo Gursales really won that election. 159 00:13:57,420 --> 00:14:06,500 So without getting too much into the details, into the weeds of it, you know, she's de facto president right now, an interim president. 160 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:13,360 And so de facto, the U.S. administration is recognizing Maduro as a president, if that makes sense. 161 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:22,440 Yep, I understand. And also with Edmundo Gonzalez, I think people might be a little bit confused there because Machado is the person that people think should be president right now. 162 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:28,460 Can you talk about how I believe he I would say the best way to put it, he served as a proxy for Machado, if I'm not mistaken. 163 00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:31,120 Is that the best way to put it? Could you describe that dynamic a bit? 164 00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:34,120 That is that is the right way to describe it. 165 00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:42,640 She she was basically she was ruled ineligible for the elections, and that's why she elected a proxy. 166 00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:48,320 So that's why, in theory, he should be the president of Venezuela right now. 167 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,720 But also, it is what it is. 168 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,580 Look, there is a reality in Venezuela, which is the military side of things. 169 00:14:56,100 --> 00:15:03,540 And that's it's a harsh truth because the opposition has no connection with them. 170 00:15:03,540 --> 00:15:18,660 So in my personal, this is purely a personal view, but in my personal view, one angle by which the opposition has failed is it was they did a great job speaking to the civilian. 171 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:21,740 but they did a very poor job speaking to the military. 172 00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:26,320 I appreciate that perspective. 173 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:27,320 I think it's really important. 174 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,040 I tweeted about this as well. 175 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,620 I tried to people who just thought it was going to be all roses 176 00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:34,300 and either Machado was going to come in 177 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:35,640 or they're going to have an election tomorrow. 178 00:15:36,020 --> 00:15:38,940 I think what most people don't understand is that level of connection 179 00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:41,660 that was first established by Chavez and the military 180 00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:44,140 and then obviously furthered by Maduro and the military. 181 00:15:44,860 --> 00:15:47,560 It's he or she or they who controls the military 182 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,420 or has that connection is essentially in control in the country. 183 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,880 And that doesn't just change tomorrow because Venezuelans or the United States even wants 184 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,660 to see the next democratically elected Venezuelan president. 185 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:04,760 We all want that, I think, as proponents of democracy and people who want to see a free 186 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:05,260 Venezuela. 187 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,740 But as you just mentioned, from my understanding and based on what you just said, the reality 188 00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:10,580 is far different. 189 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:13,420 You basically have to have the military under your control. 190 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:15,920 And Machado does not have that right now. 191 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:21,360 And it does see Rodriguez definitely does have that relationship right now. 192 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:34,238 Does that change at any point And what change is that That is a great question And I believe that nobody knows But I think the U Secretary U Energy Secretary Chris Wright who recently 193 00:16:34,238 --> 00:16:41,498 visited Venezuela, he did signal, he did provide signal that between 18 and 24 months, we're 194 00:16:41,498 --> 00:16:46,338 talking about democratic elections again in the country. So we're potentially talking, we're 195 00:16:46,338 --> 00:16:51,438 potentially speaking about a up to two year transition period. The same as this is the 196 00:16:51,438 --> 00:16:58,138 transition phase for Venezuela, etc. So, you know, we'll see how that goes. And I believe that under 197 00:16:58,138 --> 00:17:05,258 an audit, like if we do have democratic elections again, and the U.S. is monitoring the elections, 198 00:17:05,838 --> 00:17:12,258 I couldn't foresee a future where the current Venezuelan administration remains in power and 199 00:17:12,258 --> 00:17:18,618 not a new one. Understood. Okay. So it's not necessarily that Machado is coming into power. 200 00:17:18,618 --> 00:17:22,998 she might run in whatever that democratic election looks like at that point. It's just that ideally, 201 00:17:22,998 --> 00:17:26,618 we see another election at some point. It's not that she just sort of takes the reins. 202 00:17:26,858 --> 00:17:27,358 Yes, sir. 203 00:17:27,678 --> 00:17:36,398 Okay, interesting. There was a lot of talk. I've spoken personally with Leopoldo Lopez about this, 204 00:17:36,398 --> 00:17:43,298 and there's been a lot of talk about ways in which Bitcoin might be able to help in Venezuela. And 205 00:17:43,298 --> 00:17:46,598 for the sake of this conversation, I'm not going to dive into whether or not 206 00:17:46,598 --> 00:17:49,778 Venezuela has this huge Bitcoin fund that some have said that they have. 207 00:17:50,198 --> 00:17:51,318 I don't think that's the case. 208 00:17:51,458 --> 00:17:56,898 I think it was Jorge Gerasati and Mauricio went over this on Laura Shin's podcast and, 209 00:17:56,958 --> 00:18:01,058 you know, basically said it is probably not likely. 210 00:18:01,398 --> 00:18:07,998 But I think one of the things that I know Leopoldo is excited about on some level and 211

00:18:07,998 --> 00:18:12,778 other people in the Bitcoin space is the idea of mining Bitcoin again within the country 212 00:18:12,778 --> 00:18:18,178 and even potentially that being something that helps for the country to build capital reserves back up, 213 00:18:18,598 --> 00:18:26,438 mining Bitcoin with stranded energy, with whatever renewable hydro, clean energy that exists in the country. 214 00:18:26,738 --> 00:18:33,058 But I think you, more than anyone, have done a great job in explaining to people that this is easier said than done right now. 215 00:18:33,538 --> 00:18:38,998 Part of the reason for that, the infrastructure in the country is shot and it has been shot for a long time. 216 00:18:38,998 --> 00:18:40,438 It does not function properly. 217 00:18:40,438 --> 00:18:45,378 Much of the country right now doesn't have access to sustainable power. 218 00:18:45,518 --> 00:18:48,298 So from what I understand, please correct me on this statistic. 219 00:18:48,538 --> 00:18:53,918 I think you talked about the amount of demand in the country, which is around 13 gigawatts. 220 00:18:53,958 --> 00:18:57,858 And you wrote that there's only about eight gigawatts of production for the time being. 221 00:18:58,018 --> 00:19:02,838 So setting up a backdrop here of what power production looks like, are you saying that 222 00:19:02,838 --> 00:19:07,078 almost half the country doesn't really have access to consistent power? 223 00:19:07,078 --> 00:19:15,598 so 13 gigawatts is the top demand the max demand on a yearly basis which is basically when the when 224 00:19:15,598 --> 00:19:21,358 it gets hot and it's summer in the country and people have to turn on the their acs etc so yes 225 00:19:21,358 --> 00:19:27,978 currently what's mostly power in the electrical grid in venezuela is the guri dam you know the 226 00:19:27,978 --> 00:19:34,138 guri dam has a total installed generation capacity of a little north of 10 gigawatts 227 00:19:34,138 --> 00:19:39,658 and it's currently servicing only producing only eight gigawatts so you know we basically at some 228 00:19:39,658 --> 00:19:46,038 point during the year might go up to a deficit of five gigawatts in power and that's why we get 229 00:19:46,038 --> 00:19:53,218 this like tactical uh shutdowns in the country some states lose electricity for a given 230 00:19:53,218 --> 00:20:02,518 period of hours it's been up to some days in the past um so that's however we do have 231 00:20:02,518 --> 00:20:09,318 and a total install generation capacity of up to 30 to 36 gigawatts 232 00:20:09,318 --> 00:20:12,458 when you take into account our thermal production. 233 00:20:13,038 --> 00:20:16,858 But that needs some investment in CapEx 234 00:20:16,858 --> 00:20:20,558 because it's pretty much outdated, deprecated infrastructure. 235 00:20:20,838 --> 00:20:22,258 So it's not working properly. 236 00:20:22,818 --> 00:20:25,298 So this right here is where, you know, 237 00:20:25,358 --> 00:20:28,958 potentially Bitcoin mining could fall into the conversation 238 00:20:28,958 --> 00:20:33,918 because we basically could do what I said in that article, 239 00:20:34,158 --> 00:20:36,718 a cash for infrastructure swap. 240 00:20:36,718 --> 00:20:40,638 So big North American miners can come in. 241 00:20:41,178 --> 00:20:44,738 They can help us recapitalize the energy infrastructure, 242 00:20:45,218 --> 00:20:48,078 especially the ones that is gas-powered. 243 00:20:48,498 --> 00:20:51,558 And here we're not talking specifically of only flared gas, 244 00:20:52,018 --> 00:20:54,138 which was part of the focus of the article. 245 00:20:54,338 --> 00:20:56,998 We're talking about any gas, right, stranded gas. 246 00:20:56,998 --> 00:21:26,038 So if we allow them to come in, pour dollars into investing in infrastructure, and we give them guarantees so that we can sign long-term PBAs with them, so purchasing power agreements, and we give them the guarantees so that they can securely send their miners, set up operations, pay whatever taxes they have to pay, which that needs to be clarified. 247 00:21:26,038 --> 00:21:28,198 and we'll dive into that in a second. 248 00:21:29,478 --> 00:21:30,978 But basically, that's it. 249 00:21:31,058 --> 00:21:33,118 When we're talking about flare gas now, 250 00:21:33,798 --> 00:21:37,918 there's potentially north of two gigawatts of flare gas 251 00:21:37,918 --> 00:21:40,238 that we're currently just like burning away, right? 252 00:21:40,318 --> 00:21:45,138 It's north of 13 billion cubic feet of gas, okay? 253 00:21:45,258 --> 00:21:47,738 So it is a huge opportunity. 254 00:21:47,738 --> 00:21:52,698 Now, when I hear previously, 255 00:21:53,038 --> 00:21:54,938 like when I hear people from the state 256 00:21:54,938 --> 00:22:00,198 or with some connection to the Venezuelan state, whichever degree, Leopoldo or Maria Corina Machado. 257 00:22:00,798 --> 00:22:06,098 I understand that they might see the opportunity. 258 00:22:06,798 --> 00:22:16,938 However, what I think is we do have currently in Venezuela a legal framework that legalizes Bitcoin mining in the country. 259 00:22:17,058 --> 00:22:19,718 So you need to go to the crypto regulator, Sunacrypt. 260 00:22:19,718 --> 00:22:26,658 You need to notify your operations so you get approval through a Bitcoin mining license, basically. 261 00:22:27,078 --> 00:22:32,158 But there's no tax that is stipulated in that framework. 262 00:22:32,678 --> 00:22:40,078 So in theory, it's a zero cost, just a legal cost of setting up a legal entity in the country, 263 00:22:40,918 --> 00:22:45,378 notifying to the regulator your activity, how big it's going to be, 264 00:22:45,378 --> 00:22:49,518 and eventually just maybe the tax for importing the miners. 265 00:22:49,718 --> 00:22:52,958 which is just like an import tax, right, on hardware equipment. 266 00:22:53,378 --> 00:22:53,598 Yep. 267 00:22:53,958 --> 00:22:57,238 Now, that's in theory. 268 00:22:57,438 -->

00:23:02,498 In practice, what's happening is you need to pay somebody 269 00:23:02,498 --> 00:23:04,798 that has affiliations with the government 270 00:23:04,798 --> 00:23:07,758 so that you can have basically protection 271 00:23:07,758 --> 00:23:10,378 so that nobody rates your operations. 272 00:23:11,198 --> 00:23:14,798 And you pay a bonus, whichever that might be, 273 00:23:14,798 --> 00:23:19,038 to get that license, which in theory should be somewhat free, 274 00:23:19,038 --> 00:23:25,738 somewhat free so if you ask me the way that the government would have to participate in this is 275 00:23:25,738 --> 00:23:33,078 just clarifying a tax what is their what is the royalty tax that miners or any operator in the 276 00:23:33,078 --> 00:23:38,618 country that's consuming energy and that's you know capturing this flare gas has to pay the state 277 00:23:38,618 --> 00:23:47,278 also this is potentially a little bit more viable than just per se mining with the electrical grid 278 00:23:47,278 --> 00:24:00,778 And because, Frank, inside this equation fall the American oil companies or even foreign oil companies, because they're the ones that have the oil wellheads, right? 279 00:24:00,818 --> 00:24:03,558 They're the ones that are operating the oil field. 280 00:24:03,718 --> 00:24:07,438 So they are specifically the ones that are flaring the gas. 281 00:24:07,438 --> 00:24:09,358 Can I ask a question there? 282 00:24:09,858 --> 00:24:12,778 Actually, this is a great, really, really important question. 283 00:24:12,778 --> 00:24:19,358 from my understanding a lot of oil production in the country or gas production in the country 284 00:24:19,358 --> 00:24:25,558 stopped because as things broke down as society essentially broke down in venezuela people 285 00:24:25,558 --> 00:24:29,838 literally stole even like the diamond heads off of the drills you would use to drill for it this 286 00:24:29,838 --> 00:24:36,658 is what i was told years ago from family numbers um in the venezuelan family members and so 287 00:24:36,658 --> 00:24:42,578 are there people extracting gas and oil the company you're saying there are companies right 288 00:24:42,578 --> 00:24:46,738 now that are functioning there and that they're american companies where these deals made directly 289 00:24:46,738 --> 00:24:57,338 with the maduro regime devron is in the country then you got shell shell repsol any and i'm missing 290 00:24:57,338 --> 00:25:05,958 one yeah but it's basically those four so whichever whichever those four or five companies 291 00:25:05,958 --> 00:25:14,498 somebody gets to them first and pitches hey you're burning a ton of gas we can buy that gas from you 292 00:25:14,498 --> 00:25:21,838 okay or you know there's some business models in the industry already where the oil and gas company 293 00:25:21,838 --> 00:25:28,058 provides the gas at zero cost but they they get a part of the revenues right they do 294 00:25:28,058 --> 00:25:35,238 they do jvs and so

the green flare mining is doing this in nigeria for example with the japanese oil 295 00:25:35,238 --> 00:25:42,298 and gas company okay so it's doable the models are there it's just a matter of kicking off the 296 00:25:42,298 --> 00:25:48,238 discussion and providing north american miners or foreign mining companies whatever 297 00:25:48,238 --> 00:25:53,958 with the safety guarantees that they can you know ship hundreds of thousands of machines or 298 00:25:53,958 --> 00:26:01,138 thousands of machines and that they won't be you know excessively tasked yeah or seized at customs 299 00:26:01,138 --> 00:26:09,178 etc or eventually at the oil fields now that's one of the one of the benefit in my view of dealing 300 00:26:09,178 --> 00:26:16,138 with gas flared mining in Venezuela because you're basically if you if you were able to do that you're 301 00:26:16,138 --> 00:26:24,258 basically also somewhat backed by a foreign oil and gas company so they already have to a certain 302 00:26:24,258 --> 00:26:30,298 degree guarantees even better ones now where they're operating right they're operating safely 303 00:26:30,298 --> 00:26:34,718 Nobody comes in without their approval or the state's approval. 304 00:26:35,138 --> 00:26:41,438 So you would be operating already in, let's call it a Bitcoin mining safe zone for the purpose of the conversation. 305 00:26:41,858 --> 00:26:45,638 Okay, because all parties would essentially be winning in this deal. 306 00:26:45,878 --> 00:26:46,098 Exactly. 307 00:26:46,518 --> 00:26:47,458 Yeah, you'd be protected. 308 00:26:47,638 --> 00:26:56,238 Jurisdictional risk was always one of the biggest risks, obviously, in Venezuela, but particularly since they had a full crackdown in 2017. 309 00:26:56,938 --> 00:26:59,178 But I do want to back up just a little bit. 310 00:26:59,178 --> 00:27:04,438 You've referenced this article that you wrote. You posted it on X, so Bitcoin Mining Around the World, Venezuela. 311 00:27:04,798 --> 00:27:12,858 You did an incredible job in breaking down the nuances of what it would take to revive the Bitcoin mining industry or Bitcoin mining in general in Venezuela. 312 00:27:13,238 --> 00:27:20,898 Also, how Bitcoin mining could then rehabilitate and help restructure and repower the grid in Venezuela, which largely doesn't work. 313 00:27:20,958 --> 00:27:27,038 And there are certain parts of the country where it's difficult to get power from those parts of the country, which I think is the south through different parts of the country. 314 00:27:27,738 --> 00:27:32,998 So if you could, could you give us a bit of an overview, maybe for those who haven't seen or read this piece, 315 00:27:33,358 --> 00:27:36,478 of why you wrote the piece and then what was included in the piece? 316 00:27:37,378 --> 00:27:43,198 Yeah, so first on that piece, I basically started with a bit of historical context. 317 00:27:43,198 --> 00:27:50,198 So diving into at some point, you know, Venezuela, this is not mentioned in the article, but this is also a fact. 318 00:27:50,198 --> 00:27:58,958 at some point Venezuela was the was the main supply of of Bitcoin volume inside local Bitcoins 319 00:27:58,958 --> 00:28:04,818 in Latin America so most of the activity in Latin America that was coming through local Bitcoins 320 00:28:04,818 --> 00:28:11,958 was specifically coming from Bitcoin mining in Venezuela and you know they basically served as 321 00:28:11,958 --> 00:28:22,258 the supply side of Bitcoins in the continent. So it's hard to track that data and historical data 322 00:28:22,258 --> 00:28:28,298 of like hash rate in Venezuela or per country back then. But there are some that would argue, 323 00:28:28,298 --> 00:28:35,838 including myself, that at some point Venezuela used to be a top 10 country by amount of hash 324 00:28:35,838 --> 00:28:42,518 rate managed globally. Right. So can I ask how much of the hash rate do you think was there maybe 325 00:28:42,518 --> 00:28:48,338 at the peak? Yeah, I think that at some point we owned more than five percent of global hash rate 326 00:28:48,338 --> 00:28:56,578 on the country. Yes. So, you know, Venezuela was famously back then known as the Bitcoin mining 327 00:28:56,578 --> 00:29:02,918 cemetery as well. So all of the or all of the or most of the hardware that was becoming unprofitable 328 00:29:02,918 --> 00:29:08,358 that was being squeezed through bear markets by American miners, 329 00:29:08,478 --> 00:29:11,298 they would send those machines to Venezuela 330 00:29:11,298 --> 00:29:17,498 to basically mine with less than a cent per kilowatt hour. 331 00:29:18,498 --> 00:29:22,098 So yeah, very cheap rates, very hard to find elsewhere. 332 00:29:22,098 --> 00:29:27,298 Now, that was basically what I described in the article back then 333 00:29:27,298 --> 00:29:33,418 as the Wild West or the Far West era of Bitcoin mining in the country. 334 00:29:33,558 --> 00:29:39,018 Because you're still speaking about not sophisticated miners or mining activities. 335 00:29:39,258 --> 00:29:43,638 You're still speaking about spreaded and decentralized Bitcoin mining activity. 336 00:29:44,358 --> 00:29:50,058 So this would be families that would buy, you know, all the way from one machine to 10 machines. 337 00:29:50,498 --> 00:29:55,078 Whoever got interested in this ramped it all the way up to 20 machines. 338 00:29:55,078 --> 00:30:01,778 but also like the hardware back then would last like what like a year that's what i was gonna say 339 00:30:01,778 --> 00:30:06,618 you had to know how to repair these things if you were going to be sustainable no exactly yeah two 340 00:30:06,618 --> 00:30:12,218 years two years at most doing forward calculations for bitcoin mining and like bitcoin mining 341 00:30:12,218 --> 00:30:20,638 calculators rois that was insanely difficult um and also look the mining the asics were were 342 00:30:20,638 --> 00:30:28,258 you know you could plug them to a 120 volt uh

infrastructure now we're talking about three 343 00:30:28,258 --> 00:30:34,778 phases so these are 380 volt machines nowadays it's purely it became like an industrialized 344 00:30:34,778 --> 00:30:42,138 activity so that's part of what i capture in the in the article now based on what we're seeing at 345 00:30:42,138 --> 00:30:49,098 luxury through hashrate index venezuela could have a little like sick i believe it's like five 346 00:30:49,098 --> 00:30:57,458 exahash of hash rate. So that basically positions us a little less than 0.5% of global hash rate 347 00:30:57,458 --> 00:31:08,018 currently. So we went from 5% global hash rate to 0.5% global hash rate. We lost potentially 90% 348 00:31:08,018 --> 00:31:15,298 of our participation in the global hash rate map or global hash rate worth, as some people would 349 00:31:15,298 --> 00:31:24,098 call it now depending on how you look at it most of the most of the hardware that was shipped to 350 00:31:24,098 --> 00:31:32,238 venezuela to mine bitcoin was s7s and s9s so we're talking about the 2017 window etc 351 00:31:32,238 --> 00:31:40,538 and that's basically now considered like obsolete mining equipment not not even old gen mining 352 00:31:40,538 --> 00:31:50,338 equipment okay so if if you met if we measure it in terms of you know s9s purely s9s mining in the 353 00:31:50,338 --> 00:31:56,458 country we're speaking about potentially you know hundreds of thousands of of miners currently 354 00:31:56,458 --> 00:32:03,738 operating in in the country or okay so like mining mining hardware uh there's still some small miners 355 00:32:03,738 --> 00:32:09,518 that are currently mining with new gen and mid-gen equipment so like hydros s21 hydros etc 356 00:32:09,518 --> 00:32:11,718 But there's very small activity. 357 00:32:12,198 --> 00:32:17,658 OK, so at most we're like mining with very antiquated hardware. 358 00:32:17,978 --> 00:32:35,878 So if we upgrade that to like, let's say, American miners have right now sitting on some of their warehouses, all generation mining hardware that is basically just squeeze or unprofitable in Texas right now or different parts of the US. 359 00:32:35,878 --> 00:32:42,458 if they ship that, they get to mine Bitcoin, you know, with all that hardware that they already own. 360 00:32:43,078 --> 00:33:04,756 And Venezuela would be in turn upgrading like our base Bitcoin mining fleet hardware So we could potentially upgrade from S9s to S19s if you do the same calculation of moving you know those what is in the article i think we speak about 40 megawatts or something that we 361 00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:13,116 using in in the country uh we could potentially go all the way up to 1.25 1.5 percent of global 362 00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:20,276 hashrate just by helping us miners block the miners that they have sitting in their warehouses 363 00:33:20,276 --> 00:33:27,756 doing nothing just by doing that that's not even including the flare mining with flare gas 364 00:33:27,756 --> 00:33:34,876 that doesn't include mining with the 20 plus gigawatts of installed capacity that we have with 365 00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:38,576 They're thermal plants. 366 00:33:39,056 --> 00:33:51,096 So we could potentially become a top 10 or top five country by measured hash rate if we fully unlock all the potential of Venezuela for Bitcoin mining. 367 00:33:51,796 --> 00:33:52,356 Amazing. 368 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:57,676 It sounds quite exciting to hear all this. 369 00:33:57,816 --> 00:34:02,956 And I also just want to clarify, when you say American companies, you're talking about the major pubcos, riot, marathon. 370 00:34:02,956 --> 00:34:05,816 is that what you're thinking when you say that or private enterprises as well 371 00:34:05,816 --> 00:34:15,456 enterprises as well yeah you know the likes of like crusoe crusoe ai or like crusoe crusoe mining 372 00:34:15,456 --> 00:34:21,856 they've already been mining with flare gas since 2018 okay so i think it's uh i think it's a mix 373 00:34:21,856 --> 00:34:29,176 and probably at first you know before a popco sends hundreds of thousands of miners it'll 374 00:34:29,176 --> 00:34:35,736 probably be uh you know a participant from the private sector uh or sorry like a private company 375 00:34:35,736 --> 00:34:41,656 just saying hey you know let's ship 100 100 miners or a thousand miners see how it goes 376 00:34:41,656 --> 00:34:49,316 i think that's how it'll it'll unravel do you think that there's sort of a potential do you 377 00:34:49,316 --> 00:34:53,316 think in the minds of some of these companies there's maybe a first mover disadvantage in that 378 00:34:53,316 --> 00:34:57,896 because as we talked before things are a bit uncertain with those who are riggs and her 379 00:34:57,896 --> 00:35:01,956 connections to the military. And we don't necessarily have assurances that these facilities 380 00:35:01,956 --> 00:35:06,136 that host this mining, that these things will be OK, that these machines will be OK. 381 00:35:06,316 --> 00:35:10,056 I mean, and sending over 100 machines. OK, granted, it's not all the machines in the world, 382 00:35:10,056 --> 00:35:15,296 but it's still there's there's an expenditure there. Right. What do you think it will take 383 00:35:15,296 --> 00:35:20,496 for these companies to feel comfortable moving in? It's going to be more than somebody's word, 384 00:35:20,576 --> 00:35:25,396 it seems like, because it just seems like the situation, while maybe it's better without 385 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:30,836 Maduro is still relatively uncertain and maybe even unstable. So what does it take to lay the 386 00:35:30,836 --> 00:35:35,956 sort of groundwork necessary to get started with this? That's a great question. And look, I think 387 00:35:35,956 --> 00:35:43,396 how I would start answering that, Frank, is for the listeners, you need to understand that 388 00:35:43,396 --> 00:35:49,696 everything related to the energy industry or energy sector

in Venezuela is being fully audited 389 00:35:49,696 --> 00:35:52,476 by the U.S. Department of Energy. 390 00:35:52,896 --> 00:35:56,596 So there's no project that will be approved, 391 00:35:56,996 --> 00:35:59,336 nothing that will happen that will consume 392 00:35:59,336 --> 00:36:01,896 a considerable amount of energy in our grid 393 00:36:01,896 --> 00:36:03,696 or at a nationwide level 394 00:36:03,696 --> 00:36:06,396 without the U.S. knowing it'll happen, 395 00:36:06,596 --> 00:36:09,256 without pre-approval from the U.S., basically. 396 00:36:10,256 --> 00:36:13,096 I think that miners, U.S. miners, 397 00:36:13,096 --> 00:36:14,456 have done a great job, 398 00:36:14,596 --> 00:36:16,076 especially like Texan miners, 399 00:36:16,516 --> 00:36:19,316 at engaging with the energy regulator 400 00:36:19,316 --> 00:36:22,216 and the DOE in the US. 401 00:36:22,516 --> 00:36:25,836 So the DOE is aware of, you know, 402 00:36:25,916 --> 00:36:28,396 the potential of Bitcoin mining for curtailing purposes, 403 00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:32,136 for, you know, capturing excess demand 404 00:36:32,136 --> 00:36:36,416 or excess supply of energy directly on site, right, 405 00:36:36,496 --> 00:36:38,476 where the electron is being generated. 406 00:36:39,196 --> 00:36:43,996 Venezuela needs most of our electrical problem right now, 407 00:36:44,076 --> 00:36:45,476 our energy demand problem, 408 00:36:45,736 --> 00:36:47,736 is more than the generation demand. 409 00:36:47,736 --> 00:36:55,076 it's a transmission demand uh so we will need hundreds of millions of dollars if not billions 410 00:36:55,076 --> 00:37:00,956 of dollars to rebuild all the all those transmission lines right recapitalize them 411 00:37:00,956 --> 00:37:08,876 upgrade them and potentially a lot of that capix can be lowered if instead of building per se just 412 00:37:08,876 --> 00:37:15,076 transmission lines and potentially not capturing all of the domain all of the power generation 413 00:37:15,076 --> 00:37:19,536 right all of the energy that we can generate from those sites we could capture it with bitcoin 414 00:37:19,536 --> 00:37:26,456 mining facilities right next to them so i think that's that's something that will need to be pushed 415 00:37:26,456 --> 00:37:33,116 by the industry so it is it is as an industry us that we will have to engage with the doe 416 00:37:33,116 --> 00:37:40,716 and to some extent the utility company in venezuela corpulec okay which is which is fully 417 00:37:40,716 --> 00:37:46,816 state-owned but could potentially be privatized and privatization is part of the talks and the 418 00:37:46,816 --> 00:37:53,836 requirements of the U.S. and the Department of Energy with respects with regard to the Venezuelan 419 00:37:53,836 --> 00:38:01,336 energy sector okay and the Venezuelan energy industry participants in general so I believe 420 00:38:01,336 --> 00:38:09,096 that we in the engagement of those talks to like push for a framework that can

safely help 421 00:38:09,096 --> 00:38:16,436 foreign companies mine you know legally and safely in the country it will have to come from us from 422 00:38:16,436 --> 00:38:23,656 the industry from the bitcoin miners ourselves right from the bitcoiners now why i emphasize on 423 00:38:23,656 --> 00:38:29,136 when i really say emphasize a lot like hey you was mining companies versus more general foreign 424 00:38:29,136 --> 00:38:34,696 companies it's because if you look at our current agreement with the u.s it's look we're gonna buy 425 00:38:34,696 --> 00:38:44,616 the oil but you're going to use most of those proceeds to buy u.s goods and services so if we 426 00:38:44,616 --> 00:38:50,136 go to the department of energy and we say hey look there's all this flare gas but you know what 427 00:38:50,136 --> 00:38:56,416 we can sell we can solve it we can sell it solely to u.s mining companies and that's the deal 428 00:38:56,416 --> 00:39:04,536 you know look this is a safe heaven but for u.s mining companies first or at least the first 429 00:39:04,536 --> 00:39:12,556 right right and then maybe other companies can come in but that's how i would expect things to 430 00:39:12,556 --> 00:39:21,116 unravel before you know a big pubco sends miners to venezuela right like they will they will need 431 00:39:21,116 --> 00:39:27,256 to see some assurances some framework that is being pushed some new laws that are being passed 432 00:39:27,256 --> 00:39:33,636 maybe the current crypto regulator is unfit it's being restructured more than three times in the 433 00:39:33,636 --> 00:39:40,296 country and it's only resulted in corruption schemes so maybe that doesn't work maybe we should 434 00:39:40,296 --> 00:39:46,916 you know shove it off but who knows frank who knows i you have uh this plethora of ideas and i 435 00:39:46,916 --> 00:39:53,296 genuinely appreciate your enthusiasm and i'm very grateful i'm happy on behalf of you know i'm happy 436 00:39:53,296 --> 00:39:58,356 for the venezuelan people that someone is thinking the way you're thinking because i think the stakes 437 00:39:58,356 --> 00:40:03,396 here are incredibly high when it comes to enlivening the country reinvigorating the power grid 438 00:40:03,396 --> 00:40:08,276 making things work again for the Venezuelan people with this very misunderstood technology 439 00:40:08,276 --> 00:40:12,476 with Bitcoin, this technology that most people don't have a great understanding of. 440 00:40:12,716 --> 00:40:18,236 My question here for you is you've been using we, and I think you're using that term as a 441 00:40:18,236 --> 00:40:21,536 Bitcoiner, but as someone who's going to be working with Luxor as well. 442 00:40:21,856 --> 00:40:27,076 So I'm curious as to what you imagine your personal level of involvement is going to 443 00:40:27,076 --> 00:40:27,596 look like. 444 00:40:27,976 --> 00:40:30,836 Do you plan to be back on the ground in Venezuela anytime soon? 445 00:40:31,156 --> 00:40:32,876

What are you going to be doing for Luxor? 446 00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:37,656 How much sway do you have over influencing some of these dynamics that you're talking about? 447 00:40:38,196 --> 00:40:40,276 Yeah, I do plan on going back to the country. 448 00:40:41,276 --> 00:40:49,876 You know, sometime this year, I'm waiting for things to continue like stabilizing. 449 00:40:50,876 --> 00:40:51,016 Yep. 450 00:40:51,256 --> 00:40:51,736 Stabilizing. 451 00:40:52,016 --> 00:40:53,316 They are stabilizing. 452 00:40:53,956 --> 00:40:59,536 That's what we've seen from, you know, almost two months now since the intervention happened. 453 00:40:59,536 --> 00:41:10,076 But I will try to engage in talks locally to push for the idea with different parts of the current administration. 454 00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:32,116 I believe, as I mentioned, when we're speaking about the huge opportunity of mining Bitcoin with flared gas, I believe it's somewhat intelligent to try to engage the private side of the equation, which is the oil and gas companies and like engaging with the executives that they have locally in Venezuela to pitch that idea. 455 00:41:32,116 --> 00:41:36,276 This is potentially something that will take years of talks. 456 00:41:36,756 --> 00:41:38,116 We are anticipating that. 457 00:41:38,716 --> 00:41:43,516 From a Luxury perspective, Luxury is a software and services Bitcoin mining company. 458 00:41:43,756 --> 00:41:52,016 We don't run operations ourselves, but we have a plethora of U.S. Bitcoin mining companies as clients of ourselves. 459 00:41:52,016 --> 00:41:55,856 and, you know, more broadly globally. 460 00:41:56,736 --> 00:42:01,356 We have clients globally, you know, Middle East, Asia, Europe, 461 00:42:01,676 --> 00:42:05,256 Latin America, and the U.S. included as well, all of North America. 462 00:42:05,496 --> 00:42:09,056 So Luxor, one of the things that we serve is, you know, we have a pool. 463 00:42:09,216 --> 00:42:11,636 We have one of the biggest pools in the market. 464 00:42:11,736 --> 00:42:15,216 If we're going to mine Bitcoin in Venezuela, 465 00:42:16,056 --> 00:42:18,636 those operations are going to need a pool, okay? 466 00:42:18,636 --> 00:42:23,216 why shouldn't we pick a U.S. pool versus a Chinese pool, right? 467 00:42:23,656 --> 00:42:27,616 The conversations with the U.S. and the U.S. regulator are 468 00:42:27,616 --> 00:42:33,316 how do we get out some of the Chinese and the Russians out of the country 469 00:42:33,316 --> 00:42:36,296 and we give more participation to American companies. 470 00:42:36,716 --> 00:42:38,196 So that's one way we could help. 471 00:42:38,676 --> 00:42:44,516 Also, if we're speaking about mining in some parts of Venezuela, 472 00:42:44,516 --> 00:42:52,036 we're talking potentially the rural side or the countryside of Venezuela. 473 00:42:52,336 --> 00:42:55,576 So those are places that during the summer gets hot. 474 00:42:56,076 --> 00:43:00,356 So miners will potentially want to underclock some of their operations 475 00:43:00,356 --> 00:43:04,756 and like have temperature control management there for software for that. 476 00:43:05,016 --> 00:43:06,296 We offer some of that. 477 00:43:06,576 --> 00:43:09,296 So I believe they're like at a operational level. 478 00:43:09,756 --> 00:43:12,696 Luxor is not who will directly participate, 479 00:43:12,696 --> 00:43:35,816 But Luxor has a plethora of ways that it can help miners that will operate in the country, be it logistics, sending the ASICs to the country, be it from a firmware perspective, be it from a pool perspective, be it from a financing perspective, because we're the only pool in the market that can offer upfront payments for your future production of hash rate. 480 00:43:35,816 --> 00:43:44,496 So you could potentially foresee some miners that mine with Luxor send hardware to the country, operate it. 481 00:43:44,816 --> 00:43:53,316 We collect their historic uptime and then we say, hey, we can help you sell forward up to 12 months of your hashering production 482 00:43:53,316 --> 00:43:59,516 and then use that to purchase new equipment that you can send to Venezuela or send to the U.S. 483 00:43:59,516 --> 00:44:05,356 So you could picture a world where you have all these U.S. miners. 484 00:44:05,996 --> 00:44:10,016 They have all this old generation of artwork that is unprofitable. 485 00:44:10,296 --> 00:44:11,536 They send it to Venezuela. 486 00:44:12,496 --> 00:44:14,536 They collect more revenues. 487 00:44:15,396 --> 00:44:24,456 And they could use those operations to sell forward the hash rate they're producing to finance the purchase of more equipment. 488 00:44:24,956 --> 00:44:28,136 Or American mining companies for U.S.-based mining operations. 489 00:44:28,136 --> 00:44:39,096 So different ways that you can look at this, but they're all strategic levers of saying, hey, we can continue connecting ties between Venezuela and the U.S. 490 00:44:40,496 --> 00:44:44,656 Amazing stuff. I truly appreciate how your mind works with all this. Really, really good stuff. 491 00:44:44,656 --> 00:44:55,696 One of the things that I'm thinking also is the story of Gridless a little bit about how, you know, they're they're the buyer of in some cases, the buyer of last resort. 492 00:44:55,696 --> 00:45:07,376 They always make sure that people in villages and the places where they're mining or their energy facilities that they're using, that those facilities can provide affordable power to the people there who need it. 493 00:45:07,436 --> 00:45:19,396 Obviously, before school, after before and after work, the times when the when energy use is high and they do more Bitcoin mining when things are a little bit lower, like during the night or during the day when people are at work. 494 00:45:20,196 --> 00:45:21,876 Do you see some of this potentially? 495 00:45:22,056 --> 00:45:26,296 Because so Venezuelans, before everything collapsed, they were used to having

this subsidized power. 496 00:45:26,616 --> 00:45:28,196 They were used to having a cheaper power. 497 00:45:28,796 --> 00:45:31,956 Venezuelans obviously don't have a lot of money because of everything that's gone on. 498 00:45:32,056 --> 00:45:36,376 I mean, that's evidenced by the fact that a third of the country has turned into refugees, essentially. 499 00:45:36,376 --> 00:45:37,736 There was no opportunity. 500 00:45:38,296 --> 00:45:40,156 Money there obviously is not worth much. 501 00:45:40,236 --> 00:45:41,616 The Bolivar is not worth much. 502 00:45:43,076 --> 00:45:47,796 Do we see opportunities for Venezuelans on the ground here in terms of Bitcoin miners being something, 503 00:45:47,796 --> 00:45:54,496 buyers of last resort, or at least we know someone who's going to buy some of the electricity being 504 00:45:54,496 --> 00:45:59,956 generated as the power grid gets renewed, gets rebuilt? Does that help Venezuelans? And then also, 505 00:45:59,956 --> 00:46:04,076 are these companies potentially going to be hiring local? What I think about there is some 506 00:46:04,076 --> 00:46:09,116 of the work that Sebastian is doing with the Block Data Center in the Congo. Some of the people that 507 00:46:09,116 --> 00:46:13,796 work with Sebastian are some of the best mechanics that know how to fix these machines because you 508 00:46:13,796 --> 00:46:18,776 You can't just go and send it back to China or wherever the machine is made. 509 00:46:19,376 --> 00:46:21,276 They don't have the time to do that. 510 00:46:21,336 --> 00:46:22,816 They don't have the resources to do that. 511 00:46:22,816 --> 00:46:34,596 So does this also turn into an industry that, again, supports Venezuelans by subsidizing power on some level, the cost of power on some level, but that also potentially even provides employment to Venezuelans on the ground? 512 00:46:34,596 --> 00:46:41,576 100% of both because what happens in those use cases you mentioned like in Africa is 513 00:46:41,576 --> 00:46:48,176 you talk to the you talk when you talk to the energy producer that they're working with to 514 00:46:48,176 --> 00:46:54,856 you know basically get them that demand that they were missing big what big this bitcoin 515 00:46:54,856 --> 00:47:00,076 mining companies are doing is turn profitable some of their projects that were previously 516 00:47:00,076 --> 00:47:06,796 unprofitable because they said, okay, wait, look, this part of Africa is missing electricity. 517 00:47:07,596 --> 00:47:14,936 But if we go there and we, as an energy producer, and we finance this energy project, this energy 518 00:47:14,936 --> 00:47:22,616 generation plant, there's not enough demand to make it profitable, to run it profitably. So that's 519 00:47:22,616 --> 00:47:29,176 where if we privatize the energy industry in Venezuela, 520 00:47:29,356 --> 00:47:31,176 which will be privatized gradually, 521 00:47:31,496 --> 00:47:34,336 and we allow private operators to come in and say, 522 00:47:34,336 --> 00:47:38,276 hey, look, Venezuela is no longer this single-owned, 523 00:47:38,716 --> 00:47:43,136 state-owned electricity utility company 524 00:47:43,136 --> 00:47:48,616 that has to finance all of the power generation projects nationwide, 525 00:47:48,936 --> 00:47:51,916 and we allow private companies to come into the country, 526 00:47:51,916 --> 00:47:58,656 you know legally established themselves and say hey now maybe there's not enough demand in this 527 00:47:58,656 --> 00:48:06,136 xyz village but with the help of xyz pickling mining company if we work together we do a jv 528 00:48:06,136 --> 00:48:14,756 you know they can help us basically monetize that excess supply energy supply that we would have 529 00:48:14,756 --> 00:48:21,356 previously been enabled to get the man for with only like a rural rural village in venezuela 530 00:48:21,356 --> 00:48:33,796 So again, it's like an added benefit in another potential way of working out things for the benefit of Venezuela and the benefit of the electrical grid, the benefit of the energy sector. 531 00:48:33,996 --> 00:48:36,116 And it adds up another way. 532 00:48:37,116 --> 00:48:42,156 It almost in a way sounds too good to be true, but we're seeing this reality play out. 533 00:48:42,336 --> 00:48:48,336 Like I said, I think in the places where gridless operates, I always get this wrong, but I believe it's Malawi, Kenya and Botswana, if I'm not mistaken. 534 00:48:48,336 --> 00:48:58,496 And so I think people, many people who are unfamiliar with this story, this reality of what Bitcoin mining can do might not see this opportunity. 535 00:48:58,496 --> 00:49:13,636 So I think your work seems to be creating this framework for people in the in the so not only within the Venezuelan government to see the opportunity here, which is massive, but obviously then also being the liaison between. 536 00:49:13,636 --> 00:49:27,554 I don know if it liaison but doing the work to convince companies to come there and set up shop and to then help to orchestrate all of this Who else This is a big you know this is a big endeavor I think that a modest way to put it 537 00:49:28,834 --> 00:49:31,574 Who do you see working alongside you with this? 538 00:49:31,854 --> 00:49:35,874 How heavy of a lift does this feel like in your mind? 539 00:49:36,014 --> 00:49:41,154 Will people quickly or gradually see the opportunity that you see 540 00:49:41,154 --> 00:49:45,474 and come on board to sort of naturally support just because the opportunity is there? 541 00:49:45,474 --> 00:49:52,434 yeah look um i tweeted out this opportunity like a threat bay a threat form of the article 542 00:49:52,434 --> 00:49:58,054 mentioning maria corina machado so the you know the facto opposition leader it went by her in 543 00:49:58,054 --> 00:50:06,554 venezuela and i got tons of feedback from engineers uh oil engineers uh venezolan oil engineers um 544 00:50:06,554 --> 00:50:13,214 a banker that i know

pinging me privately like hey whenever this is up let me know how i can help 545 00:50:13,214 --> 00:50:21,094 how we can like finance this so there's interest um and you know i believe again this won't be a 546 00:50:21,094 --> 00:50:26,914 night today thing right it'll probably take years and potentially a new administration 547 00:50:26,914 --> 00:50:33,334 administration i just say potentially maybe it can happen before um but i will do my best frank 548 00:50:33,334 --> 00:50:38,474 that's how i can answer that you're already doing your best for sure which is really really inspiring 549 00:50:38,474 --> 00:50:42,094 but it's good to hear that simply putting the signal out there putting the word out there 550 00:50:42,094 --> 00:50:48,434 is attracting people with some know-how and some not only capability, but maybe financing 551 00:50:48,434 --> 00:50:54,374 capabilities to come to your aid, because I think the opportunity is tremendous. And it seems kind of 552 00:50:54,374 --> 00:50:59,374 like, you know, just a sit down or two with people at the very least, or simply putting out a tweet 553 00:50:59,374 --> 00:51:05,774 thread would be enough to sort of open people's eyes to the level of opportunity here. More broadly, 554 00:51:05,774 --> 00:51:12,854 when it comes to a Venezuela revitalized, renewed, a democratic Venezuela, a Venezuela that returns 555 00:51:12,854 --> 00:51:19,954 to its glory days of maybe decades ago. I'm not sure. I think I know in the 50s and 60s, 556 00:51:19,974 --> 00:51:25,394 Venezuela was truly a destination. But even up until the 80s, you know, it was still a place 557 00:51:25,394 --> 00:51:29,314 where it did have its problems. Don't get me wrong. You call it the haves and the have-nots. 558 00:51:29,494 --> 00:51:34,014 Don't get me, you know, that was there, but nowhere near what it's seen in modern history, 559 00:51:34,014 --> 00:51:38,934 nowhere near that, but a place where there's at least opportunity again, some level of hope, 560 00:51:38,974 --> 00:51:42,874 a place where we're not seeing a third of the country have to flee, where people feel safe, 561 00:51:42,934 --> 00:51:46,274 where people feel they could build a life and build a family again. What does that timeline 562 00:51:46,274 --> 00:51:54,234 look like in your mind? Yeah, well, look, as I mentioned, we own $180 billion. That is currently 563 00:51:54,234 --> 00:52:02,274 180% of GDP. I believe that to start fixing the economy, the first thing that we, we have tons 564 00:52:02,274 --> 00:52:09,654 of creditors outside and we defaulted both on our government debt and state oil company debt okay 565 00:52:09,654 --> 00:52:17,754 we've been defaulting since 2017 when sanctions came in so we haven't even we haven't even like 566 00:52:17,754 --> 00:52:25,554 paid the interest on that debt since 2017 the national institute of statistics in venezuela 567 00:52:25,554 --> 00:52:32,034 has not been publishing the statistics of the economy since then, 568 00:52:32,454 --> 00:52:33,874 since like even before. 569 00:52:34,334 --> 00:52:38,994 So our creditors globally don't even have an idea 570 00:52:38,994 --> 00:52:44,114 of what's the real state of the nation of the Venezuelan economy, right? 571 00:52:44,174 --> 00:52:45,594 Like how much are we really making? 572 00:52:45,594 --> 00:52:49,834 How much profit is the country getting? 573 00:52:50,434 --> 00:52:52,854 And so how much can we service our debt 574 00:52:52,854 --> 00:52:55,234 so that we can restructure the debt. 575 00:52:55,234 --> 00:53:17,214 I hear from experts and previous directors of the of Venezuela Central Bank that I've spoken with that the process of just making transparent and calculating the state of the economy and the actual statistics of our economy is a process that will take at a minimum nine months. 576 00:53:17,214 --> 00:53:22,834 So only figuring out where we're currently sitting at will take up to a year. 577 00:53:23,574 --> 00:53:33,694 OK, so say a year of transition where we understand what our account balances are, like a real balance sheet, basically. 578 00:53:34,594 --> 00:53:47,134 Say another year where we renegotiate the debt, right, with their with our creditors so that Venezuela's the Venezuelan government bonds get are quoted again. 579 00:53:47,214 --> 00:53:52,454 in the international markets and they're not like sanctioned equity titles right like or or debt 580 00:53:52,454 --> 00:53:58,154 titles i'm sorry and and then we restructure the debt that will be probably like another year 581 00:53:58,154 --> 00:54:05,614 so the transition of just normalize normalizing things will take three to five years 582 00:54:05,614 --> 00:54:13,334 okay three or five years at a minimum now what we've seen already frank is the dollar 583 00:54:13,334 --> 00:54:16,874 has dropped by 50% in the country already. 584 00:54:18,394 --> 00:54:19,274 That is... 585 00:54:19,274 --> 00:54:21,114 Versus the Bolivar, eh? 586 00:54:21,214 --> 00:54:22,434 Versus the Bolivar, yeah. 587 00:54:22,514 --> 00:54:25,054 So the Bolivar has been gaining significant strength. 588 00:54:25,114 --> 00:54:26,294 I haven't seen this on here. Is that right? 589 00:54:26,574 --> 00:54:27,294 That is correct. 590 00:54:27,554 --> 00:54:27,974 Oh, okay. 591 00:54:28,974 --> 00:54:32,634 USDT, at some point during the intervention, 592 00:54:33,314 --> 00:54:36,794 went all the way up to 1,000 Bolivars per USDT. 593 00:54:36,794 --> 00:54:40,154 It's currently sitting at 500, 520. 594 00:54:40,314 --> 00:54:43,194 It dropped all the way down to 385 Bolivars. 595 00:54:43,334 --> 00:54:46,654 So at some point it dropped like more than more than 60 percent. 596 00:54:46,914 --> 00:54:49,674 Right. So what happened, Alessandro? 597 00:54:49,814 --> 00:54:51,594 What happened that that what changed? 598 00:54:51,594 --> 00:55:04,334 Well, what changed is the state is no longer taking, wreaking in all the revenues from oil,

from the sales of oil to wherever that went to before. 599 00:55:04,334 --> 00:55:13,734 And now it's going directly to a trust and a bank in Qatar that the U.S. government set up for Venezuela's central bank. 600 00:55:13,894 --> 00:55:20,994 And so the proceeds of the sales of oil to the U.S. are going to that account. 601 00:55:21,954 --> 00:55:32,334 Then, again, as I mentioned, the Venezuelan government has to provide a plan for how they want to consume those revenues. 602 00:55:32,334 --> 00:55:42,994 revenues, okay, and then it's audited by the U.S. and then released. What is released in this case? 603 00:55:43,514 --> 00:55:48,894 It is those dollars are being poured into the private banking system in Venezuela, 604 00:55:49,234 --> 00:55:55,594 and it's a bid and offer process, right, like supply and demand process for setting up what is 605 00:55:55,594 --> 00:56:01,914 the rate in the economy, the exchange rate. So truly more like a free market type of thing, 606 00:56:01,914 --> 00:56:08,754 It's not a single entity owned by the state that dictates, hey, this is the price of the dollar in the economy. 607 00:56:08,974 --> 00:56:12,854 It's more like a participation of all the banking system, basically. 608 00:56:13,374 --> 00:56:24,454 So what has happened is close to a billion dollars have already landed in the hands of the private banks in Venezuela. 609 00:56:24,454 --> 00:56:32,334 and in turn those dollars are being resold to private companies in venezuela to import goods 610 00:56:32,334 --> 00:56:39,094 from the u.s wow i did not know this was this had been good is this widely reported i feel like i 611 00:56:39,094 --> 00:56:44,034 have widely reported and this is until then i can share with you from a private conversation that i 612 00:56:44,034 --> 00:56:49,834 had with one of the presidents of one of the main private banks in venezuela i cannot share his name 613 00:56:49,834 --> 00:56:56,714 yep but you get that you get it so that's the whole thing it's like we sell oil to the u.s 614 00:56:56,714 --> 00:57:02,794 the u.s gives us dollars in qatar those qatar's go from the venezolana central bank in qatar 615 00:57:02,794 --> 00:57:07,894 to the venezolana central bank in venezuela it is sold to the private banks and then the private 616 00:57:07,894 --> 00:57:13,574 bank sell it sells it to private companies that import goods from the u.s so there's already some 617 00:57:13,574 --> 00:57:21,794 progress being made like up to 20 percent of all the dollars that were poured into the venezolan 618 00:57:21,794 --> 00:57:28,174 banking system through the venezolan central bank in 2024 have already been poured in venezuela 619 00:57:28,174 --> 00:57:29,874 in less than two months 620 00:57:29,874 --> 00:57:39,034 the state the state can no longer steal the oil revenues and that's what's happening we're 621 00:57:39,034 --> 00:57:44,754 literally just fixing the accounting the accounting here and that's already making a huge difference 622 00:57:44,754 --> 00:57:50,774 right like wow yeah see this is the stuff i you know it's hard like americans are just so caught 623 00:57:50,774 --> 00:57:56,374 up on like uh oftentimes and i get it for good reason at a certain level like well it's just 624 00:57:56,374 --> 00:58:02,234 another it's just another colonial takeover of a latin american country and blah blah blah i'm like 625 00:58:02,234 --> 00:58:06,714 yeah but you don't understand okay theoretically sure no question that's what happened i get it 626 00:58:06,714 --> 00:58:11,114 But on a practical level, things are changing and will continue to change. 627 00:58:11,354 --> 00:58:21,634 And most Venezuelans aren't sitting around thinking in like a textbook, thinking, oh, well, these colonists, it's like I want to be able to eat in my country again and I want my country to function again. 628 00:58:22,034 --> 00:58:27,434 And this may be like an unfortunate step or not the way some people envisioned it, but it is what it is. 629 00:58:27,454 --> 00:58:32,974 And this is sort of what we're dealing with and dynamics, as you just described, are shifting as a result. 630 00:58:32,974 --> 00:58:37,274 so i think looking at it through a little bit less of a philosophical lens and a little bit 631 00:58:37,274 --> 00:58:43,174 more of a realistic lens of like okay some repair is already now taking place it's at least also 632 00:58:43,174 --> 00:58:48,894 setting up a situation where someone like yourself who's obviously been incredibly active both you 633 00:58:48,894 --> 00:58:53,194 know here in public and behind the scenes can go back to the country to actually sit down with 634 00:58:53,194 --> 00:58:58,554 people and to and to have incentive-based discussions with them here here's how look 635 00:58:58,554 --> 00:59:02,574 because what some of these people who are in power they're not maybe they're not inherently 636 00:59:02,574 --> 00:59:07,674 bad people. They think they just had to sort of, they got swept up in whatever's going on there. 637 00:59:07,834 --> 00:59:12,794 It's not that, you know, everybody there who had any sort of affiliation with Maduro, who was in 638 00:59:12,794 --> 00:59:17,554 any sort of position of power, was inherently evil or won't do anything ever again there. Things are 639 00:59:17,554 --> 00:59:20,514 going to shift. Some of those people might be involved. Some of those people might not be 640 00:59:20,514 --> 00:59:25,774 involved as things change. But ideally, you want people to feel re-incentivized to do something 641 00:59:25,774 --> 00:59:30,174 that they'll still be sort of making money or doing whatever they're doing, but also that 642 00:59:30,174 --> 00:59:39,734 Venezuela will benefit as a result, where it's a win-win scenario versus the sort of only the government winning and extracting from people for the last two decades or whatever it's been. 643 00:59:39,794 --> 00:59:42,934 More than that, Chavez came into power in

the late 90s. 644 00:59:43,314 --> 00:59:44,754 So sorry about that. 645 00:59:44,774 --> 00:59:49,814 A little bit of a I'm just sort of thinking out loud here as I go through this, because I think it's a really exciting time. 646 00:59:49,934 --> 00:59:54,794 But it does seem that people need to be mindful of the fact that it's not a snap of the fingers. 647 00:59:54,914 --> 00:59:56,254 Everything changes overnight. 648 00:59:56,254 --> 00:59:59,034 And I would imagine it's all just not smooth sailing. 649 00:59:59,034 --> 01:00:05,154 There's going to be a lot of negotiations, a lot of things that need to shift. 650 01:00:05,554 --> 01:00:14,194 But if we're already seeing a shift in the accounting, if we're already seeing certain deals being made that are benefiting both the U.S. and Venezuelan people, 651 01:00:14,714 --> 01:00:20,954 if we're setting up a scenario where it's going to become or Venezuela can become a relatively business friendly state again, 652 01:00:21,054 --> 01:00:26,914 and where some of that business activity will provide jobs and subsidized power and things for Venezuelans, 653 01:00:26,914 --> 01:00:31,614 then in my mind it feels like we're on the right track but let me stop you know sort of ranting 654 01:00:31,614 --> 01:00:37,134 about it there you tell me are you sort of i mean it sounds like you're optimistic about things um 655 01:00:37,134 --> 01:00:42,674 you know just i guess maybe that's just as a final thought is it does this feel good you know i mean 656 01:00:42,674 --> 01:00:47,454 venezuela has been through hell you were there while it was going through hell does it feel nice 657 01:00:47,454 --> 01:00:52,534 to see something change you can see it as naive because i still haven't revisited the country 658 01:00:52,534 --> 01:00:58,434 after everything that happened but it feels great man okay and like talk to talk to venezuelans 659 01:00:58,434 --> 01:01:03,354 outside there's eight million people outside the country that as you mentioned we didn't leave 660 01:01:03,354 --> 01:01:07,934 because you know things were were just like not okay now it's like it was like a big deal 661 01:01:07,934 --> 01:01:15,374 almost all of them are happy with what's happening at the moment right like if if the bank and 662 01:01:15,374 --> 01:01:20,354 eventually if the banking system down the road gets connected again with the global banking 663 01:01:20,354 --> 01:01:25,714 system right so like you you don't have to juggle as a venezuelan overseas to send money back to 664 01:01:25,714 --> 01:01:32,514 your family right you see a stabler dollar with respect to what the market was dictating so it'll 665 01:01:32,514 --> 01:01:37,134 it'll it'll balance that that's basically almost like a de facto dollarization in the country 666 01:01:37,134 --> 01:01:44,474 so people's wages will be kind of dollarized as well people's wages will improve we're finally 667 01:01:44,474 --> 01:01:51,894 like dude we exported the first molecule of gas for the first time in history this month okay so 668 01:01:51,894 --> 01:01:58,374 first time in modern minute well post all the uh post all the chaos i guess all the chaos correct 669 01:01:58,374 --> 01:02:04,714 yeah post all the chaos so like change is happening there's tons of videos of like 670 01:02:04,714 --> 01:02:10,394 hundreds of trucks of just like gas trucks to carry gasoline throughout the country 671 01:02:10,394 --> 01:02:15,394 which was a common thing it's like hey yeah we are the country with the biggest oil reserve 672 01:02:15,394 --> 01:02:21,354 reserves in the world but all of our refineries are screwed so we got to refine it overseas and 673 01:02:21,354 --> 01:02:27,214 then we got to import it but we also didn't have like enough trucks to service all the gas bombs 674 01:02:27,214 --> 01:02:33,494 in the country so even the gas bombs a lot of gas bombs are like inoperative so things are improving 675 01:02:33,494 --> 01:02:38,834 gradually and i can maybe i'm not there but i got family there i got friends there i get people from 676 01:02:38,834 --> 01:02:43,494 the industry that are there and everything that I'm receiving is positive comments. 677 01:02:45,594 --> 01:02:49,414 I think we could leave it there. I think that's a good place to leave it. Sultan, 678 01:02:49,794 --> 01:02:55,694 this has been a pleasure. As I said, I followed your work forever. I really admire, it seems like 679 01:02:55,694 --> 01:03:00,514 what you're not only doing currently, but what you have been doing for a while, it seems like, 680 01:03:00,534 --> 01:03:03,354 because it doesn't, I would imagine some of these people you're speaking with, those aren't 681 01:03:03,354 --> 01:03:08,494 relationships that just get spun up overnight. So obviously you've cared deeply about your 682 01:03:08,494 --> 01:03:14,914 country and fixing it in this time since you've been away. Ideally, if you do get back this year, 683 01:03:14,994 --> 01:03:18,654 if you actually want to ping me and let me know if it's safe to come and visit, I'm very much 684 01:03:18,654 --> 01:03:24,494 looking forward to getting back and seeing it with my own two eyes as well. But yeah, I wish you 685 01:03:24,494 --> 01:03:30,254 and obviously the Venezuelan people all the best. I do hope that Bitcoin mining does have this 686 01:03:30,254 --> 01:03:36,854 positive catalytic effect on the people there, on the country as a whole. And yeah, I think these are 687 01:03:36,854 --> 01:03:42,854 ideally exciting times or making the best of a very tough situation. And it seems like we're 688 01:03:42,854 --> 01:03:46,354 sort of pushing in the right direction. So thank you for the work you're doing to help that 689 01:03:46,354 --> 01:03:49,574 be the case. And yeah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you, my friend. 690 01:03:50,074 --> 01:03:57,334 Look, Fran, it's great connecting with you after so long. And look, one doesn't get to rebuild the 691 01:03:57,334 --> 01:04:04,634 country every day of our life. Yeah, right. Man, maybe the time is now more than ever. And also, 692 01:04:04,634 --> 01:04:07,494 So, you know, whenever the time comes to visit the country, I'll let you know. 693 01:04:07,614 --> 01:04:09,914 And the first gold one goes on me, man. 694 01:04:10,134 --> 01:04:11,214 I appreciate that. 695 01:04:11,274 --> 01:04:12,254 I appreciate that. 696 01:04:12,334 --> 01:04:13,834 Well, again, it's been a pleasure. 697 01:04:14,774 --> 01:04:16,014 Yeah, we'll talk soon. 698 01:04:16,514 --> 01:04:16,974 All right, sir. 699 01:04:17,034 --> 01:04:17,434 Have a good one. 700 01:04:17,494 --> 01:04:17,714 All right. 701 01:04:17,834 --> 01:04:18,734 Take it easy, everybody. 702 01:04:18,974 --> 01:04:19,354 Talk soon. 703 01:04:19,994 --> 01:04:21,234 Pretty awesome stuff, no? 704 01:04:21,694 --> 01:04:23,454 Alessandro is absolutely incredible. 705 01:04:23,454 --> 01:04:27,654 I'm truly excited to see what he accomplishes in the upcoming year or so, 706 01:04:27,734 --> 01:04:31,534 especially when he returns to Venezuela to start doing some work on the ground. 707 01:04:32,154 --> 01:04:34,234 Venezuela is super lucky to have someone like him, 708 01:04:34,234 --> 01:04:39,454 someone who truly gets Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining and who also truly wants the best for his country. 709 01:04:39,814 --> 01:04:44,974 Really, really exciting stuff. Thank you to everyone who tuned into this episode. As mentioned, 710 01:04:45,094 --> 01:04:49,074 if you could hit the like and subscribe button, maybe leave a comment or a review, 711 01:04:49,294 --> 01:04:53,054 I would greatly appreciate that. It helps the algorithm to find us and we're trying to make 712 01:04:53,054 --> 01:04:57,214 sure these stories get spread far and wide. So please, if you could help us out, we would greatly 713 01:04:57,214 --> 01:05:06,554 appreciate that. And again, please email me at newrencap at gmail.com. That's N-E-W-R-E-N-C-A-P 714 01:05:06,554 --> 01:05:12,634 at gmail.com. I'm always looking for leads for really cool stories or interviewees, people who 715 01:05:12,634 --> 01:05:18,274 are doing really important work to help facilitate Bitcoin adoption around the globe. We're looking 716 01:05:18,274 --> 01:05:24,514 for those underreported stories. We want to help amplify the work that people are doing to bring 717 01:05:24,514 --> 01:05:29,354 Bitcoin, especially to the furthest corners of the globe. So please keep me in the loop. 718 01:05:29,854 --> 01:05:34,674 Again, thank you to everybody for watching. We will be back next week. Take it easy, everybody.