WEBVTT
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Pick the choice as often as possible. That is slightly
2
00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.559
more difficult to me. It's the small stuff that nobody
3
00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:07.400
sees that makes.
4
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The biggest difference in the world.
5
00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:14.240
Everybody knows the harder choice versus the easier choice. Everybody,
6
00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:19.000
to include myself, will look externally and say.
7
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What do I need to do?
8
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I know what I need to do, and so do
9
00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:26.640
they They need to do the thing. Then, even if
10
00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.679
it's microscopic that they want to do less more often
11
00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:31.199
than they do the thing that they want to do more,
12
00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.200
that over time is the juice.
13
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:37.719
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science
14
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:44.640
and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman,
15
00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:48.439
and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford
16
00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:51.719
School of Medicine. My guest today is Andy Stumpf, a
17
00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:54.679
retired Navy seal and subsequently a member of the Red
18
00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:57.679
Bull High Performance team, where he was a wingsuitter where
19
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:00.000
they literally get into what some people call squirrel suits
20
00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.920
and fly. He set two world records wingsuiting. But today's
21
00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:06.359
discussion is not really prompted by his career in the
22
00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:09.719
military nor his wingsuiting, although it does impact the discussion.
23
00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.640
Today's discussion was prompted by my reading of Andy's recent
24
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.640
book called drown Proof. Now, there are a lot of
25
00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:17.599
books out there by former Navy seals, but upon reading it,
26
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:19.920
I realized that this was a special book and that
27
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:22.799
Andy's experience and the lessons he shares, and most importantly,
28
00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:26.159
the tools he shares, are both unique and indeed important
29
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:29.319
for everyone to hear. For instance, he describes a tool
30
00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:31.840
in there that I now use every single week which
31
00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.200
has allowed me and many other people, and I'm certain
32
00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:38.519
you to separate out issues of concern versus issues of impact,
33
00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.760
meaning to allow you to actually be able to impact,
34
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.519
perhaps not control, but certainly have an impact on certain
35
00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.840
things while ignoring the issues in life that distract you,
36
00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:51.560
that pull you into drama, and that can numb you out,
37
00:01:51.640
1
00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.160
Pick the choice as often as possible. That is slightly
2
00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.559
more difficult to me. It's the small stuff that nobody
3
00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:07.400
sees that makes.
4
00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:08.439
The biggest difference in the world.
5
00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:14.240
Everybody knows the harder choice versus the easier choice. Everybody,
6
00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:19.000
to include myself, will look externally and say.
7
00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:20.239
What do I need to do?
8
00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:23.000
I know what I need to do, and so do
9
00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:26.640
they They need to do the thing. Then, even if
10
00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.679
it's microscopic that they want to do less more often
11
00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:31.199
than they do the thing that they want to do more,
12
00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.200
that over time is the juice.
13
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:37.719
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science
14
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:44.640
and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman,
15
00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:48.439
and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford
16
00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:51.719
School of Medicine. My guest today is Andy Stumpf, a
17
00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:54.679
retired Navy seal and subsequently a member of the Red
18
00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:57.679
Bull High Performance team, where he was a wingsuitter where
19
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:00.000
they literally get into what some people call squirrel suits
20
00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.920
and fly. He set two world records wingsuiting. But today's
21
00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:06.359
discussion is not really prompted by his career in the
22
00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:09.719
military nor his wingsuiting, although it does impact the discussion.
23
00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.640
Today's discussion was prompted by my reading of Andy's recent
24
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.640
book called drown Proof. Now, there are a lot of
25
00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:17.599
books out there by former Navy seals, but upon reading it,
26
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:19.920
I realized that this was a special book and that
27
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:22.799
Andy's experience and the lessons he shares, and most importantly,
28
00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:26.159
the tools he shares, are both unique and indeed important
29
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:29.319
for everyone to hear. For instance, he describes a tool
30
00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:31.840
in there that I now use every single week which
31
00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.200
has allowed me and many other people, and I'm certain
32
00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:38.519
you to separate out issues of concern versus issues of impact,
33
00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.760
meaning to allow you to actually be able to impact,
34
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.519
perhaps not control, but certainly have an impact on certain
35
00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.840
things while ignoring the issues in life that distract you,
36
00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:51.560
that pull you into drama, and that can numb you out,
37
00:01:51.640
--> 00:01:54.799
and that essentially waste your life. Today you'll learn what
38
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:57.439
that exercise is and how to implement it in your life.
39
00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:00.319
You'll also learn a lot of other simple tools, how
40
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:03.319
to take the slightly harder road in certain moments versus
41
00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:06.560
the easier road. You'll also learn from Andy about the
42
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.560
most difficult things that he encountered in life and how
43
00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:12.719
he navigated them, and know those weren't in the military
44
00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.159
nor wing suiting. It actually comes from his personal life,
45
00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:18.360
which he shares very candidly. And finally, we have a
46
00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:22.520
very serious and in many ways somewhat emotional discussion about
47
00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.599
suicide and mental health more generally. I do hope that
48
00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:28.960
that discussion will benefit all of you. Certainly, we are
49
00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:32.280
certainly I should say, very open to your input. That discussion,
50
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:35.400
of course, raises more questions than it provides answers, but
51
00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:37.199
I think we can all agree that this is an
52
00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:41.120
extremely important and timely topic. The frequency of suicide is
53
00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:45.280
increasing significantly in all communities, so for reasons related to
54
00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.000
the range and the nature of the specific topics that
55
00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.520
we discussed today, you're in for a very special episode.
56
00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.560
Thank you, Andy Stump. Before we begin, i'd like to
57
00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.120
emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and
58
00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:59.719
research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my
59
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.520
desire iron effort to bring zero cost to consumer information
60
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.639
about science and science related tools to the general public.
61
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.039
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
62
00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.240
All right, my book is finally ready for release. Protocols
63
00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.800
and operating Manual for the Human Body is coming out
64
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:18.319
in three months. It's my first book, and I've been
65
00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.319
working on it for many years now, and it's really
66
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.159
a reflection of decades of research and experience that came
67
00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:26.479
even prior to starting the book. My goal for this
68
00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:28.599
book is that it serves as an easy to use
69
00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:31.400
manual for dealing with any number of different pain points
70
00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:33.759
or performance goals that you might have in terms of
71
00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:37.000
mental health, physical health, and performance. It covers the science
and that essentially waste your life. Today you'll learn what
38
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:57.439
that exercise is and how to implement it in your life.
39
00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:00.319
You'll also learn a lot of other simple tools, how
40
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:03.319
to take the slightly harder road in certain moments versus
41
00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:06.560
the easier road. You'll also learn from Andy about the
42
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.560
most difficult things that he encountered in life and how
43
00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:12.719
he navigated them, and know those weren't in the military
44
00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.159
nor wing suiting. It actually comes from his personal life,
45
00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:18.360
which he shares very candidly. And finally, we have a
46
00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:22.520
very serious and in many ways somewhat emotional discussion about
47
00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.599
suicide and mental health more generally. I do hope that
48
00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:28.960
that discussion will benefit all of you. Certainly, we are
49
00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:32.280
certainly I should say, very open to your input. That discussion,
50
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:35.400
of course, raises more questions than it provides answers, but
51
00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:37.199
I think we can all agree that this is an
52
00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:41.120
extremely important and timely topic. The frequency of suicide is
53
00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:45.280
increasing significantly in all communities, so for reasons related to
54
00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.000
the range and the nature of the specific topics that
55
00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.520
we discussed today, you're in for a very special episode.
56
00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.560
Thank you, Andy Stump. Before we begin, i'd like to
57
00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.120
emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and
58
00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:59.719
research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my
59
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.520
desire iron effort to bring zero cost to consumer information
60
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.639
about science and science related tools to the general public.
61
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.039
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
62
00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.240
All right, my book is finally ready for release. Protocols
63
00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.800
and operating Manual for the Human Body is coming out
64
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:18.319
in three months. It's my first book, and I've been
65
00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.319
working on it for many years now, and it's really
66
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.159
a reflection of decades of research and experience that came
67
00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:26.479
even prior to starting the book. My goal for this
68
00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:28.599
book is that it serves as an easy to use
69
00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:31.400
manual for dealing with any number of different pain points
70
00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:33.759
or performance goals that you might have in terms of
71
00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:37.000
mental health, physical health, and performance. It covers the science
72
00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:41.159
and most effective protocols for sleep, nutrition, exercise, focus, learning
73
00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:45.199
and neuroplasticity, stress management, and much more. I'm super excited
74
00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.199
to share it with all of you. The launch date
75
00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:50.039
is September fifteenth. You can learn more about it or
76
00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.080
pre order by going to protocolsbook dot com. It's also
77
00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:57.159
available on Amazon dot com. And I'm super excited that
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Protocols is finally ready for release. And as always, thank
79
00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:03.919
you for your interest in science and now for my
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discussion with Andy Stump. Andy Stump, welcome, Thank.
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You for having me.
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I read your book Drownproof. Research makes me nervous, by
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the way, I'm telling you that before we start, I've
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read a lot of books, including a lot of the
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quote unquote seal books it's awesome. I'll mention a few
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of the reasons why it's awesome, but I'll let people
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read it for themselves, but just to really get right
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to it, one of the practices that you describe in
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the book is something that I decided to do right away,
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and I've been doing every week since I listened to it. Now,
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granted I just listened to the book a few weeks ago,
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so that means twice. But I've found it to be
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tremendously useful, not just during the exercise but in the
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days that follow and it's really remapped a lot of
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what I would call my unhealthy tendencies and given me
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much more sense of agency. And my days are just
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going so much better. In fact, I was on time
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today for the first time in my life.
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Influence versus concern.
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Yes, So, could you describe this simple exercise, because I'll
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tell you, having done it, it is immensely powerful. I
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only wish I had learned about it in junior high school.
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Story of my life. Yeah, so, first off, not my creation.
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This is something I don't remember. And I think I
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said this multiple times in the book because I want
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to be very clear that of basically taking ownership over
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nothing in that book, because they're not my unique ideas.
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They were things that were taught to me that I'm
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trying to pass forward. So I don't remember exactly where
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I first saw this, but the way it was first
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position to me was your circle or sphere of influence,
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which is very small, and your sphere of concern, which
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for most people to include myself, is very large. So
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it was the size of this table that would be
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your concern. The influence would be the size of a
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pin drop on the table. And the exercise is actually
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really simple. Ticket standard piece of paper, draw a line
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down the middle, concern on one side, influence on the other,
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and you just take the time to write down the
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things that are occupying your waking hours.
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I don't know if you're anything like me.
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I try not to set an alarm unless I have
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something really pressing that day. But if I do wake
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up and my brain does the revolution, I have to
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get out of bed because otherwise I'm staring at the
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ceiling in the bedroom and if I have really sticky
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things in the morning. I'll usually do this about once
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a month or once every six months now, but almost
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every time that thought will be on the left hand
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side of the calm. It's just a concern. Why is
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it preventing me from going back to sleep? Why can't
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I let go of it? And it's social media, the
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world that we all live in. It's things you can't control.
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It's just all the stuff.
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That you spend your energy and effort focusing on. And
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then you go to the other side of that paper
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and I'm still yet to find more than one thing
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that you can write down, and that's the direct influence
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that you have. And all you really can write on
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that is yourself. Now you can trunsch that out and
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say your thought process, the way you speak to yourself,
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the way you plan your day, way you manage your time.
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But all that goes back into things you can actually
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directly control, which leads you to the realization, or leads
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me to the realization that I have no control over
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what happens to me in my life, but I have
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absolute and complete and total control over how I respond
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to it. And I think that speaks to the agency
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piece and it helps me, especially when I have those
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sticky thoughts, It helps me at least take a step back.
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I'm not going to say I'm perfect and I can
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put down a lot of the things that I'm concerned with,
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but it will identify for me a healthy or an
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unhealthy attachment to those things, and it does help me
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cross back over to Okay, I understand that this is
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scary or concerning, but being scared or concerned about it
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doesn't impact outcome everything on the right hand.
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Side that the paper does. So that's what it does
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for me.
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Man, you want to talk about developing some more efficiencies.
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It's a great tool.
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It's startling how much is going to be on the
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left and how little is going to be on the right.
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Yeah, it's been a game change here for me because
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and maybe I misinterpreted the exercise a little bit because
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on the right hand side of the page, I've been
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listening out the things that I can control and the
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things that I can do with my time.
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Comes back to you're controlling the management of your time.
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That's totally fine, And with all these tools, I don't
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think there is a wrong answer if it has the
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impact that you're looking for. Again, you can tytrate all
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that back up to you controlling yourself and what you
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do with your time.
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I think it's perfect. Yeah, again, just an awesome exercise.
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I really encourage everyone to do it for me once
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a week has been very helpful, and it just pops
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to mind anytime I'm thinking, like I saw something in
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the news yesterday and you start going down these rab holes,
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You're like, wait, what am I doing? Like? What am
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I doing? And we can blame the algorithms, we can
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blame the world, but ultimately you know it's you know,
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once you realize that you're being manipulated. I think the
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obligation is to not follow that.
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That algorithm is real. I don't know what it means.
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I've listened to people argue about it at nauseum, but
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I have the choice as to whether or not I
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interface with the algorithm, and that's where the power. That's
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what I think the algorithm is trying to do is
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figure out a way to take that power away from
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you and put it back into their hands. But it's optional.
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You learned this some years ago, yes, in the teams, yes,
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but you still do it now about once a month
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to carry it around with you.
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If you're anything like me, I spend a lot of
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time on airplanes. It's a really good time to occupy
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yourself with something that is, for me at least productive
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as opposed to just tuning out and watching YouTube videos
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of sovereign citizens get arrested, which is one of my
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favorite pastimes.
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I highly recommend people get into it. These are the
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people that that's say, you can't arrest me on the
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sovereign citty to travel right to travel the right.
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Which they do have the right to travel, but you
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don't have the right to drive without a driver's license
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in all fifty states.
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Are they out there testing the law or are they
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hoping that they'll get you flagged and there will be
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a video so they can promote this sovereign citizen thing
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they are They just really into being sovereign citizens and
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living their lives.
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I think some of them fall into the first category.
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And I think some of them actually just legitimately believe okay,
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and they there's amazing things on the Internet.
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You shouldn't believe all of them, right, maybe even most
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of them.
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That's the fair point. Actually, the vast majority of things
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you should take, I think with a large dose of
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scrutiny on the internet.
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We're about the same age, so late forties for you,
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fifty for me. I was thinking about this in light
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of this concern versus influence exercise, which is, you know
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that they created these like ten and twenty and thirty
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year high school reunion things. I think for the reason
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that you have the choice to go back and learn
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about what people are doing and who's still married, who's
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still alive, who's thriving, or whatever. Whatever the reason is,
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we have these things called reunions. But with social media,
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there's this opportunity to be constantly aware of everybody you
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grew up with them, of you people you knew five
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years ago in a job that you no longer think about.
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So I feel like that left column now has grown
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tremendously regardless of somebody's age, the opportunity to be aware
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of so many more things, not just distant in other
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countries and other issues entirely, but like our past lives
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are very much like anchored to us now, unless we
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really literally draw that line and sever from all that stuff.
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Because as much as I wish the best for all
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my classmates and all these people in graduate school, and
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whether it really a lot of it should not occupy
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one's mind, do you ever wonder whether social media itself
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is making it harder to do this exercise.
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I think it could be.
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Do you know who Chad Wright is? Yes, I know
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of him and we've corresponded a little bit. He is hilarious.
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We should probably describe it.
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He does the same type of stuff that Goggins does.
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He's an endurance athlete, long red Beard. I call him
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the Forest Gump of the Seal Teams to his face,
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so I'm comfortable saying it. He's amazing. I've had him
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on the show a couple of times. Knew him when
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we were in the teams together, and he came on
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the show on my show in November, and I don't
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know how we started talking about it, but it was
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this conversation around screen time. It's like, all right, Bud,
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let's pull the phone up. Let's see what we got.
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It's not awesome.
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I think it was four and a half hours. So
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we decided that in January of this year, we're going
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to try to drive our screen time per day to
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under an hour for total phone usage. I think phone
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calls we were able to strip out of that. I
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think the closest you got was about ninety minutes. And
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then the last week of January for me, I got
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mine down to thirty minutes. Now for clarity, I was
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still doing a lot of this stuff that I was
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doing on my phone, but I forced it over to
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my laptop, which was a really interesting experience because it's
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way less sticky on that platform. So Instagram on your
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laptop sucks. It's not intuitive. The things that you would
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normally just do with your thumb, they don't exist, so
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you end up closing your laptop up. So I'd get
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on there, post what I wanted to and then just leave.
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My mental health was better in January that it had
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been in a long time, So I one hundred percent
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to think that social media is not only designed to
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suck up as much as that left hand portion of your.
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List as possible.
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But again it's it's optional. I mean, you create content.
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You have a massive platform. I create content. We can
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easily tell ourselves we have to exist on these platforms,
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which to a degree we do. The question I ask
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myself is is the platform working for me? Or am
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I working for it? And that's the healthy relationship. And
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I think actually that goes right back to that exercise,
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am I targeting what I do with my time and
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being efficient with it and then moving on or am
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I just getting stuck into this thumb scroll of death,
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which is right before bed. I've heard you say it's
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the best time to have electronic device light.
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Yeah, real bright in a dark room, right before ben right.
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If you really want to maximize, make sure you do
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it first thing in the morning too, and don't get
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outside and look at the sun. Yeah.
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But it's so sticky, I'm telling you. When I hopped
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over to my laptop at first, I couldn't even figure
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out how to post a picture. And it's so clunky
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and so not intuitive that you don't want to.
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Play with it. Are you still there now? Don't know?
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I went right back to using my thumb.
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What's Chad doing now with his social media? Is he's
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still He's probably doubled it.
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He said the same thing too. By the way, man,
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this is amazing. We should do this more often. And
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just right back to being on your thumb again by
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probably March.
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So what's mind boggling about this is? And you'll tell
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me no, we're just ordinary people who were trained to
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do extraordinary things. But you know, seal selection, you know
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pairs down. You know, for every one hundred guys, you know,
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maybe fifteen get through maybe ten. You know, consistently right
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discipline is certainly a piece of that resilience, mental toughness,
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you know, whatever language you want to throw at it,
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you have that Chad has that you guys were weaned in,
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that you were forged in that. Then you do high risk,
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high consequence work right and on minimal sleep, et cetera,
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et cetera. And here are two guys challenging each other
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to spend less time on social media, accomplish it by
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virtue of competition. Okay, cool? And then you say revert.
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What does that say? Not about seals, what does that
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say about the platforms? Because I mean think about the
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rest of the world.
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It says everything you need to know about the platform
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The fact that you could, like you just said, you
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can recognize all of those things, you can both text
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each other back and forth, and your limited phone usage
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for the day. Man, this is awesome. And sixty days
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later you're back to the same behavior that led you
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to the November December conversation. That's all you need to
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know about the platforms.
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Okay, I have to drill into this. This is not
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where I thought we would go first, but it gets
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right to the heart of discipline and self control versus
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influence and time. And time is everything when you are
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on a social media platform and your scrolling weight. Are
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you aware of the time that's drifting away from you? Yes?
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Are you thinking? Why am I doing this? But I
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feel compelled to do it? And we're always oblivious? Is
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it like being drunk where you don't you're not thinking
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about the fact that you shouldn't be doing it until
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you sober up. I'm aware.
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I am aware that it's not healthy, and I will
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actually sometimes I don't know if you like this. I
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talk to myself out loud. Somebody from the outside would
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probably think I'm a psychopath, but I will say to myself,
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why are you doing this? This doesn't feel good?
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And just for hours, not for an hour and hour,
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for it a minute.
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I can't go that far. I would I would feel
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as if I needed to take a shower if I
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went that far. But if I have fifteen minutes, man,
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it's it's enticing and I don't know what it is
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about it, and I don't feel joyful after doing it.
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I try not to compare myself to other people. Good
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luck being on the internet and doing that.
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I try not to.
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Get caught in the negativity aspect of it, because I
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can I recognize the negativity bias and myself where you'll
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get ninety nine like this is amazing, and one guy's
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like you caught it suck and you're just like, are
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you mother? That's the only comment you pay attention to.
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It's the brain is wired for to identify those outliers.
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So I refuse to be mean on social media. I
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won't make negative comments. Don't get me wrong. You can
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insult people by not being mean. Just have to work
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your way around it and takes a little bit longer.
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But I know it's not healthy. I know I could
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do anything other than that time and be more productive
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and maybe move my life just a little bit in
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the direction I want to don't.
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the episode description. I've got a theory that I'm just
433
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:14.480
going to share please that I've been thinking about a
434
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.119
lot lately, having just spent some time with let's just say,
435
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.119
one of the major providers of online content. It's not
436
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.559
a social media platform. So I have this theory that
437
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:31.119
unlike being drunk or doing drugs of any kind, opioids
438
00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.920
or amphetamines or something where people exit the state of
439
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.839
intoxication and they realize like, oh my god, like that
440
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.920
was a huge waste of my time, my life, I
441
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:43.440
made these mistakes, et cetera. Being on social media is
442
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:47.720
different because there's this awareness that we're on there and
443
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.960
we probably could or should be doing something else. Often
444
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:54.799
and I have this theory that it's the perfect addiction
445
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.640
because it's what I would call low resolution, enough that
446
00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.119
it doesn't occupy all of your mind. Like when people
447
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.119
are really intoxicated, they're not thinking about the fact that
448
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.559
they shouldn't be intoxicated. That's the state they're trying to achieve.
449
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:09.839
This is a state that people come out of and
450
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:11.720
report there are data on this. They go, yeah, it
451
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:13.519
didn't feel good being on there for the last forty
452
00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:15.119
five minutes or thirty minutes, or I feel like I
453
00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.759
wasted a lot of time. So they're aware of that
454
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.920
even while they're doing it. Very unusual for addictions, right
455
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.720
Most addictions fall into the category of trying to erase
456
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:27.119
the sense of time, lose themselves in the activity, forget
457
00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:29.240
the trauma. If you think it's trauma earlayer, just forget
458
00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:31.839
everything else and just be in this moment. Gamblers will
459
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:35.039
say this it's as zone they crave so much. This
460
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.920
is different, doesn't feel really good. You're aware that you're
461
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:39.839
not supposed to be doing it quite like that or
462
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:43.359
that much. So I actually think it's the quote unquote
463
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.839
ultimate addiction because it's low resolution enough that your brain
464
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:50.160
circuits can get attached to it and keep doing it
465
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:54.680
while you're monitoring yourself. And yet you can run these
466
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:57.279
two tracks at the same time, so you're not getting
467
00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:58.960
absorbed and coming out of and going, oh my god,
468
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.880
I didn't you for my final exam, My goodness, I
469
00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:04.759
didn't pick up the kids from school. It's just low
470
00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:07.119
resolution enough that you can still kind of tend to
471
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.240
the kids, kind of be in a conversation, sort of
472
00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.039
be on the zoom, sort of like and kind of like.
473
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.079
It doesn't totally fall apart exactly, and so in some ways,
474
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.880
because it's not so extreme, I think that's actually one
475
00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:22.720
of the problems. The other problem is, of course our
476
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.400
brains can but are not really designed to be split
477
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.440
into these, you know, two different activities for terribly long.
478
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.079
It's not just an inability a multitask. I actually think
479
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.359
that low resolution thing is to you can kind of
480
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:35.400
do it while you're doing other things. So I'm just
481
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:37.839
this is something that I actually want some laboratories to
482
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.079
look at. Where does that lead if left unchecked? Well,
483
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.359
for you and for me, the consequences are different and
484
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.720
probably less immediate because we've already built our careers. There's
485
00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:51.720
the social detriment, you know, relationships to family and stuff
486
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.319
that undoubtedly suffer somewhat right, but they're doing it too right,
487
00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:58.240
So there's that. I do worry now. I really sound
488
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:00.720
like I'm in my fifties like about the younger generation,
489
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.279
because I don't know whether I would have been able
490
00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:08.039
to escape this tunnel had these devices been around. So
491
00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:12.480
I think that otherwise incredible accomplishments and human beings and
492
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:16.680
careers and families and everything in between, art and music
493
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.960
is literally not going to be made. I fear this
494
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:23.480
much more than I fear AI, to be honest, much
495
00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:26.559
much more in terms of taking away jobs and taking
496
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.559
away careers. I think that because it's I'll tell you this,
497
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.680
I am confident that it is way way worse than
498
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.960
the quote unquote opioid crisis, which was already terrible.
499
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:39.559
I think we're going to be okay. So I have
500
00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:42.480
three data points which happened to be my children. So
501
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.559
almost eighteen, almost twenty one, almost twenty three, my middle
502
00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:50.200
son has got it dialed. He's going to college in Bozeman.
503
00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:51.680
I think he getta ready started his junior year in
504
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:56.279
mechanical engineering. He's doing an internship at a quantum computing laboratory.
505
00:23:56.839 --> 00:23:59.119
I don't know what that means, he tries to tell me.
506
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:01.440
I'm like, he just talk to my wife.
507
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:02.960
It's super cool stuff.
508
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.000
He made a robotic hand. Of course, the first way
509
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.960
he tested it was a middle finger, which I deeply,
510
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.480
deeply appreciate. He is yourself one hundred percent. He exists
511
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.839
on social media. He downloads the app once per week,
512
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:20.599
spends an hour on it, erases it because it's the
513
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:24.920
pendulum going the other direction for him. My oldest keeps
514
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.839
it on his phone but uses it very sporadically. And
515
00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:30.279
it's almost at least the middle one is going to
516
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:31.880
be twenty one. The other one's going to be twenty three.
517
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:34.440
My oldest now is almost at the point, and I
518
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:36.559
think his peer group is almost did the point. A
519
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.720
little bit of mocking people who spend you know what
520
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:42.039
I mean, it's almost now, it's almost almost. On the
521
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.000
other side, oh you're one of those even though they
522
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:45.880
were raised.
523
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:47.000
With electronic devices in their hand.
524
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.160
My daughter, on the other hand, surgically connected to her
525
00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:55.599
hand and is constantly consuming. So I think she will
526
00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:58.079
get there as well too, because when I can kind
527
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:00.400
of pull her out of that digital world, or we
528
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.559
go places that have less than optimal cell coverage intentionally
529
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.640
and somehow the Wi Fi doesn't show up because Dad
530
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:08.799
unplugs the route, like, oh there's no Wi Fi at
531
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:09.079
the house.
532
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:09.640
That sucks.
533
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.000
She can see the light. But my other two, as
534
00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:14.359
they've gotten a little bit older, they have they have
535
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:16.279
seen it and found it on their own. And I
536
00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:19.839
think we're gonna be okay because I think that generation
537
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:23.920
now is really viewing these platforms.
538
00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:25.079
With a little bit more of a wary eye.
539
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:27.920
And I don't know why, but my middle sim was
540
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.759
the first one. He just was like, Nope, this is
541
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.279
what I do. I'm on there for an hour. It's
542
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:34.440
one hundred percent for memes for him, and then he
543
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:35.319
just deletes the thing.
544
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.519
Great, you know, I'm I'm I'm very reassured by what
545
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:40.440
you just said. I had a point of three though.
546
00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:43.440
So well, it's interesting because I got the data on,
547
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:47.240
for instance, smoking in teens. Like when we were growing up,
548
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:49.599
a lot of people smoked. Young people smoked. You know,
549
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:51.720
they'd be your first active rebellion. There were all these
550
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:53.960
campaigns to try and get young people to quit smoking,
551
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:55.599
and they did not work. It's going to give you
552
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.839
lung cancers. This is your lungs after smoke. None of
553
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:01.759
that worked. What w was the ad campaign that had
554
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:06.039
these old white dudes cackling and talking about all the
555
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:09.000
money they were going to make on these young kids smoking.
556
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:11.559
So the rebellion of youth if you leverage it against
557
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.920
the big industry platforms. No one likes to be manipulated.
558
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.359
But when kids realize and teens realize that they're being manipulated,
559
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.519
they'll push back in a way that can be really
560
00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:24.279
good for them, Which is a little bit of what
561
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.119
we're hearing here. So you know, as a.
562
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.920
Parents, I can tell you they push back in ways
563
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.680
super hard, maybe almost pendle on the other way. I
564
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:33.839
tell you what they're also pushing back on in my
565
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:39.359
all three of their generation alcohol consumption. Damn don't get
566
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:43.599
me wrong. They there's a time and place for everything.
567
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.640
We go to a yearly jiu jitsu retreat in Costa Rica.
568
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:50.440
The drinking age is eighteen. One of my sons is
569
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:53.240
in college. Like I said, it's an interesting watching those two.
570
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.640
That might be the only singular time they drink in
571
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.039
an entire year. That was the opposite of me growing
572
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:03.519
up and the culture of the first community I went into.
573
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:08.119
It is wild to see the push in the other direction.
574
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:12.680
And now I'm talking peptides or my middles. And I
575
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:14.440
told him I was coming here. It's just like, oh, oh,
576
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:16.400
ask him what I need to be doing for sleep optimism.
577
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.680
I'm like, oh my god, But he's send it to him.
578
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.000
That's his generation. I was not. I think I started
579
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:24.799
looking at sleep optimization about last Thursday.
580
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.200
You know, it just wasn't the thing that we were
581
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:27.680
looking at.
582
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:31.000
So I actually, as much as my children, I truly
583
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.119
believe children are just designed to sharpen their teeth on
584
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:35.720
the parents' bones. I also have a lot of faith
585
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:37.480
on the next wave coming through.
586
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:39.839
This is not a question I ever thought I would
587
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:41.920
ask on this podcast. As somebody who did an episode
588
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:45.240
on alcohol that got some reach and got people rethinking
589
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:47.359
whether or not they wanted to drink, and I should
590
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:51.279
just quickly say the major response to that was one
591
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.759
of three different types. One was I don't like drinking,
592
00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:56.519
and now I can justify not drinking. There were a
593
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.200
lot of people who felt that they had to drink
594
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:01.720
and now they had justification not to other people who said, wow,
595
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.200
I didn't realize that, you know, it can increase breast
596
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:05.960
cancer risk, or you know, we have cancers in our
597
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:08.359
family and that's a real thing, you know, class one carcinogen,
598
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.839
et cetera. And then the third category like, you know,
599
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:12.839
I wish you hadn't told me this information. I really
600
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:14.599
enjoyed drinking, and now my friends don't want to drink
601
00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:16.200
with me. Fair and I don't tell people what to do,
602
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:20.160
and you know, et cetera. But I have to ask,
603
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:23.519
do you think that your kids and their generation are
604
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:28.480
possibly missing out by virtue of, you know, not drinking
605
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:30.720
at all. It's a fantastic question.
606
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.759
I mean, it is a social lubricant for a degree,
607
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.880
I was probably and still am anti social and large crowds.
608
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.960
Is there an aspect of that where it legitimately helped
609
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.480
me not necessarily feel more comfortable, but maybe get out
610
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.640
of my own way when I was younger. Yes, did
611
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.839
it lead to some bad decisions along the way, Yes?
612
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.759
Did bad decisions and those consequences shape the human being
613
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:01.400
that I would become along the way, Yes, I don't
614
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:05.039
know where it lands. I do think that there is
615
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.440
a chance that, yes, they are missing out on maybe
616
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:14.160
not formative life experiences, but important life experiences.
617
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:17.079
I think the camera phones are a big concern with
618
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:20.960
drinking now because people are so worried about becoming less
619
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.079
inhibited and maybe not even saying or doing the wrong thing,
620
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:26.680
but even things as trivial as like look, not everyone
621
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:28.960
is an awesome dancer. They can get filmed, they can
622
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:31.680
get posted, they can get teased, they're social shame. The
623
00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:35.240
other problem is that many, many people are awesome at
624
00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:37.319
certain things, and those are the things that tend to
625
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:39.680
be high amplitude also, and so people feel like they
626
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:42.000
know if they're going to be seen online, they have
627
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:46.279
to be in some impressive form. So I don't really know.
628
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:48.519
I do worry about the cannabis thing, because I'm not
629
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.599
anti cannabis, but I do think given a couple drinks
630
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:55.839
a week versus smoking weed in terms of like the
631
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:01.799
overall risk benefit, alcohol seems less risky, but they can't. Yeah,
632
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.200
I think so. I mean, look, there are high performers
633
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:06.640
and people who can use cannabis and they're like not
634
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.720
a problem. Young males in particular, who have a predisposition
635
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:15.200
to psychosis or bipolar disorder, some of them smoke high
636
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.640
potency weed or even low potency weed and they never
637
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:21.400
come back from the psychotic episode. I know a lot
638
00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:24.920
of examples of that, and that's in the data now.
639
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:27.960
So alcohol, Yeah, you can drive off a cliff, you
640
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:29.839
can run somebody over, you can say or do something
641
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:33.000
really really stupid. But assuming those things don't happen, that
642
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:38.720
the immediate risks and long term consequences of like having
643
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:40.680
a couple of beers or a couple of drinks or
644
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:43.680
maybe even a few more. Try to get home safe.
645
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:45.839
You don't say or do anything stupid, Like you're not
646
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:46.920
gonna make yourself psychotic.
647
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:48.480
I'm kind of in the same boat that you are.
648
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:50.119
I'm not here to tell people how to live their life.
649
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:52.160
I do think that they should pay attention to the
650
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:54.359
risk versus reward. You know, live your life how you
651
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:57.240
want your choices are going to have potential consequences, and
652
00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:59.480
some of those can be pretty big. There's some things
653
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.519
I deeply regret about my expressions of being a human
654
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.359
being when I was drinking when I was younger, and
655
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:08.839
there are some things that I feel like my life
656
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:11.519
would be completely different without that. I would never want
657
00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:14.240
to give those experiences back. I don't know how you
658
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.839
table that, though this is a fascinating cover.
659
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:19.559
You know where we're going to go here?
660
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:22.960
Yeah, I mean I in my own life, I wouldn't
661
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:27.880
give up those experiences. But I also don't feel comfortable
662
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:31.680
saying you have to drink to have them. I don't
663
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:34.160
know what the difference looks like, though. Maybe later on
664
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:36.200
as you grow into your I mean, I'm a more
665
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.400
confident person now absent alcohol than I was a more
666
00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:42.960
confident person younger absent alcohol. So maybe time will help
667
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:44.680
you get to those places where you could take those
668
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.480
actions where you needed that social lubricant. But maybe not.
669
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:49.000
I don't know.
670
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:51.119
Man. Well, it's like sleep is super important, and I
671
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:53.799
think it's great for everyone, especially young people, to understand
672
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:56.960
just how great they can feel and mentally and physically
673
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.559
perform when they're well rested. I think It's also an
674
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:02.000
important and not just rite of passage but experience to
675
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:04.480
know just how terrible you can feel after a night
676
00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:07.440
of no sleep and still go take a midterm exam
677
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:09.440
or go for the run you were supposed to go
678
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:11.799
for it, not because it's quote unquote the best thing
679
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:14.240
for you, but just because how do you explore the
680
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:19.279
outer margins of your capacity unless you know how feeling
681
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:23.480
really great feels, and how let's just say not lousy,
682
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:26.559
but how like minimally good you can feel and still
683
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:30.400
complete something while you're completely crushed, Like I mean, look
684
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:33.079
after a breakup, after two or three nights of poor
685
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.960
sleep in a very stressful time, not having eaten perfectly,
686
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.640
like it's good to understand what to workout or what
687
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:40.920
going to class and forcing yourself to stay awake or
688
00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:43.720
having a hard conversation with your significant other feels like
689
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:46.440
when it's like the last thing your body wants you
690
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:49.119
to do. I think there's utility there. You know, It's
691
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.119
kind of like the ice bath of mental experiences, right,
692
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:52.400
are you.
693
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:53.359
A fan of the ice bath?
694
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:54.160
I am?
695
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.720
And what temperature cold?
696
00:32:57.839 --> 00:32:58.079
Four?
697
00:32:58.400 --> 00:32:58.599
So on?
698
00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:01.319
Rogan I said, you know, low fifties, and he like
699
00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:04.559
he was shocked and dismayed. He looked. He seemed it
700
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:07.400
was like an older brother or guy you respect looking
701
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.319
at you, like, oh man, should we even continue this podcast?
702
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:12.559
I was like, I thought you, and I quickly went
703
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:13.720
to it. Yeah, but I go into the song at
704
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:15.799
two hundred and twenty degrees fahrenheit. You know which I do.
705
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:18.480
I'm very heat tolerant, not as cold tolerant. I like
706
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:21.839
to do cold shower, cold plunge or whatever, like you know,
707
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:26.240
low forties. Now, to me, there is nothing as reliable
708
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:28.880
and provided you don't like jump into an icehole or
709
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.799
something stupid like that, or do you know hyperventilation breathing
710
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:34.400
and then jump into cold water, which has killed people,
711
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:36.519
provided you don't do that, I don't know of anything
712
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.960
that is both safe and reliably can give you that
713
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:42.119
adrenaline spike in a way that you can start to
714
00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:44.240
learn to work with what it's like to be in
715
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.880
a highly adrenalized state. I think there's just value in
716
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:52.160
having your body flooded with adrenaline somewhat against your will,
717
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:55.079
but you're controlling some of it and learning. I think
718
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:57.880
it's a great space to explore. Well, Okay, do I
719
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:00.559
distract myself. Do I lean into it like you can?
720
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:03.559
You can explore a lot of your own consciousness in
721
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:06.480
these high arousal states. And I do think there's carryover.
722
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:08.880
And yes, there's a nice long wave of dopamine that
723
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.199
lasts many hours. That's known. There's a nice long wave
724
00:34:11.239 --> 00:34:15.000
of adrenaline. But yeah, I think it's a great training
725
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.119
tool if you don't want to do it immediately after
726
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:20.079
resistance training, because it can it can reduce some of
727
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.719
the quote unquote gains you would get because it vasa constricts.
728
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.920
You want blood flow, You want to profuse the muscles
729
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.960
in order to you know, get the strength and hypertrophy
730
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.239
benefits from the training. But it provided you do it
731
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:35.920
before on off days or six hours after you resistance train,
732
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.159
I think it's a really valuable tool.
733
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:40.199
What protocol would you use? I like to have my
734
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:42.840
cop plunch it about eighty What would you do like
735
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:45.239
ten in five out a couple times eighty degrees?
736
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:45.679
Fair night?
737
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.079
It's great. I can bump it to eighty five if
738
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:49.760
you think that's a little too low.
739
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:52.280
You know, team guys have this advantage that they did
740
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:53.760
all that so they can be like I did it.
741
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:55.280
I don't want to do it right. That's kind of
742
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:57.159
like I went through that advantage. You know. It's like
743
00:34:57.159 --> 00:34:59.440
the people who are sleep deprived in medical school. They're like, yeah,
744
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:01.440
I don't do anymore. I get it like that. You
745
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:03.760
guys suffered enough. When I went down to Chocko's, he
746
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:08.239
specifically had me do a heat cold protocol because I
747
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:10.400
like to do three rounds of each. You know, heat
748
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.719
it somewhere about you know, two ten, two fifteen, maybe
749
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:14.199
as high as two twenty. It was hot, but I'm
750
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.800
pretty heat tolerant for how long that'll be twenty minutes
751
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:18.800
and then go into the you don't want to start
752
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:21.039
right off with that, right, and then go into the cold.
753
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:25.360
And so they packed the sauna. They cranked that thing up,
754
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:29.239
and they kept resetting the clock. And literally, he'll tell you,
755
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.800
I was down on the floor where it's you know,
756
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:34.239
not cool, but it's still cold or heat rises obviously,
757
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:37.199
and he his daughters, they were laughing, his family, and
758
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.840
so everyone in there, young and old, male and female,
759
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:42.000
was just laughing at me. So he has what he
760
00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:44.679
calls the factory reset protocol, which is where you don't
761
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:46.159
know how hot or how long you're going to be
762
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:47.559
in there, and you don't know how cold or how
763
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:49.320
long you're going to be in there. And we'll talk
764
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:52.320
about this a little bit about time. But I don't know.
765
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:53.800
If you don't like the cold, you don't have to
766
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:55.199
do it. But I do think most people can really
767
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:55.920
benefit from it.
768
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.360
I'm saying I'll develop the protocol for a the sauna
769
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:05.880
will be it ninety seven easy transition back and forth.
770
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:07.199
Who knows?
771
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:10.440
All right? Tak in front of guy who jumps out
772
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:12.920
of or off of mountains in a squirrel suit. Let's
773
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.119
talk about the squirrel suit? Sure, and why in the
774
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:18.039
world anyone who values their life seriously though? Yeah? No,
775
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:21.960
and it would do this? And is there an off ramp?
776
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.239
Is there a parachute? And when you learn how to
777
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:27.199
do this, how hard is it to learn? And what's
778
00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:29.320
the juice there? Okay, a lot of questions there.
779
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.000
Okay, it's funny a lot of people call them squirrel suits.
780
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.760
It's just a wingsuit. Squirrel is actually a manufacturer of
781
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:38.480
one of the suits. Fantastic branding. They happen to be
782
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:42.679
the suit that I jumped. So essentially, it is a
783
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.880
human body turning into a nylon wing that's really all
784
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:48.280
it is. It's nylon. It's some k neapreme around the wrists,
785
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:49.960
so you have a little bit of flexibility in the wrist.
786
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:55.159
They're really actually advancing the leading edge technology with the fabrics.
787
00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:57.039
Just I mean, it's crazy to look. I don't know
788
00:36:57.079 --> 00:36:58.760
the name of the program, but you're looking at all
789
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:02.599
of these from the side of wind angles and how
790
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.039
the suits they're looking to reduce drag.
791
00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:08.039
And it's more than just the rigidity of your body.
792
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:10.400
So at least the suits that I jumped, or modern suits,
793
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.679
they are ram air inflated, so there is an outer
794
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.039
layer on both sides, an upper layer let's say, for
795
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:20.199
your back, and an underlayer for your belly in between.
796
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:23.920
It's much like a canopy. There's ribbed fabric with portholes
797
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.719
and on the front and back of the wing. As
798
00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:31.360
you give it airspeed either exiting an airplane that's already
799
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:34.079
in flight, it's most skydbving airplanes are probably doing eighty
800
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:36.880
to one hun and twenty miles an hour or in
801
00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:39.039
the base jumping world, and this is where it can
802
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:41.400
get spicy, as you have no airflow for about the
803
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:42.599
first four seconds.
804
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:44.119
Because you're jumping. For those that don't know is.
805
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.039
Call it a fixed object building antenna span or earth
806
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:49.679
is what the acronym stands for. You're probably not going
807
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.599
to do it off the buildings because it's you need
808
00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:55.000
time to get the suit actually flying. But it's a
809
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:57.440
different experience because if you jump out of an airplane,
810
00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:59.840
those RAM air inlets fill up your suit. Is it's
811
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.840
fresh rise, you can feel it, and you can already
812
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:04.159
fly your suit. You can flip over, you can actually
813
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.599
I've gotten above aircraft many time. You can basically translate
814
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.559
that horizontal lift into power and go above them. Surely
815
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:13.360
you're gonna come back down, otherwise you'll stall the suit
816
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:16.559
and it starts waffling down. But in the base jumping world,
817
00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:18.880
it's a zero air speed exit. So for the first
818
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:22.760
about zero to four seconds, you don't have any air
819
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:25.280
filling up the RAM air inlets. So if you don't
820
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:27.519
go off in the right body position, or if you
821
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.599
go head low and or scorpion or head high, and
822
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.199
then you pitch through that and there is terrain below you,
823
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.519
that's how a lot of people die. But the suit
824
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:39.639
itself is basically that there's wings. There's a large wing
825
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:42.119
between your leg, a wing underneath your arm on both
826
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:43.719
the left and right hand side, and they come in
827
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:49.480
a variety of sizes. So learning it is it's simple,
828
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:53.159
not easy. First off, skydive before you throw a wingsuit on.
829
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:55.559
In the skydiving world, I think I had three thousand
830
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:57.320
jumps before I put a wingsuit on the first time.
831
00:38:57.480 --> 00:38:59.960
Is it important that people do different types of skydiving?
832
00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:03.239
By the way, I'm not versed in skydiving, So what's
833
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:06.119
the most basic type of I assume a tandem jump.
834
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:07.519
Then you start doing individual jobs.
835
00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:09.639
Some people go like I went right to the first
836
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.960
time I did a skydive. I had an instructor holding
837
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.360
on to me for both sides until my parachute deployed.
838
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.079
It's a very structured.
839
00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:18.960
Program that most modern drop zones will have a lot
840
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:21.880
of people will do with tandem first, which I recommend
841
00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:24.519
if you've never done it and you're uncertain about whether
842
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:26.119
or not you would like it. I think there's two
843
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.599
really good options. One is a tandem, but if even
844
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.760
that idea makes you a little bit uncertain. There's now
845
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:35.400
enough wind tunnels around commercial wind tunnels. There's down and
846
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:37.880
there's ocean side wind tunnel. There's one in La, there's
847
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:39.800
one in San Diego. They're all over the place, so
848
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:43.079
it's just in Virginia Beach. There's one in Virginia Beach.
849
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:46.639
So it simulates the sensation of falling through the air
850
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:48.519
in an environment where you don't have to wear a parachute,
851
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:50.239
you don't have to ride an airplane. You literally hop
852
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:53.079
in there. They can hold onto you, and it feels.
853
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:56.599
Like it's kyiving, sounds like fun. It's leveled up what.
854
00:39:56.599 --> 00:39:59.079
People can do in the air because it's this contained
855
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.920
environment where you can if you're moving a millimeter. The
856
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.880
number of jumps I have had where you get out,
857
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:06.239
you jump out into the air where your only reference
858
00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:08.519
is another person that's moving around, and you get you
859
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:10.840
were sliding all over the place, like fuck you, you were
860
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:13.239
sliding all over the place. Neither of you know because
861
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:15.320
your reference is the earth just flying around. And then
862
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:16.760
you get into the winternel and you're both up against
863
00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:19.199
the glass, so I we both suck, so makes it
864
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.280
a little bit more difficult. The most basic type of
865
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.320
skydibmon would be just exiting the plane in flight, falling
866
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:27.840
with your belly to the oriented towards the ground, and
867
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.480
deploying your parachute on time. Skydiving is two parachutes. Main
868
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:33.440
parachute and reserve reserve is packed by an FAA rigger,
869
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.360
and I believe it's for one period of time. It
870
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:38.360
was ninety days in between pack jobs. I think it's
871
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:41.400
six months in between pack jobs down but full. They
872
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.039
open it up, the reserve, they opened the parachute up,
873
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:46.400
They inspect it. They make sure that the canopy is good,
874
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:50.360
the lines are good. The automatic activation devices, which are
875
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:55.239
computers sensing fall rate, barometric pressure with a firing criteria
876
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:57.679
which will fire your reserve for you if you do nothing,
877
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.920
which has hundreds of documented It saves, by the way,
878
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:04.400
for an unconscious jumper whatever it may be, or somebody
879
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:08.440
as crazy as it is to say somebody falling through
880
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:11.400
the air forgetting to look at their altimeter because they're
881
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:17.719
having so much fun. It happens. So cypresses or vigils
882
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:22.000
or just aad's automatic activation devices have saved hundreds of lives.
883
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.679
So that reserve parachute is packed by a rigger. Most
884
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.679
civilian jumpers will pack their own main parachute. It takes
885
00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.559
five minutes for an experienced jumper, maybe twenty minutes for
886
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:34.800
somebody who is learning and you can go do. I
887
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:36.079
think the most jumps I've ever done in a.
888
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:36.960
Day was probably thirty.
889
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:40.480
That was at an event called a boogie where it's
890
00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:42.440
just as fast as you can go and you're just jumping,
891
00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:44.159
jump and jumping. On an average day from you when
892
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:46.840
I lived in San Diego would be six to a jumps.
893
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.480
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894
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895
00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:57.760
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897
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:03.000
had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
898
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:05.480
The reason I started taking ag one and the reason
899
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.079
I still take it every day is because ag one is,
900
00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:11.159
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901
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:14.519
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902
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:17.360
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903
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:20.000
overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill
904
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.280
any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
905
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I get asked pretty much all the time, if I
906
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:27.199
could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?
907
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:30.199
And my answer is always ag one. It has just
908
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.639
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909
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:36.199
mental health, and performance. If you would like to try
910
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:39.320
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911
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.559
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912
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:44.559
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913
00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:48.039
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914
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:52.079
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915
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.800
and energy generally brain health and much more. I personally
916
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:59.079
take them both every day. Again, go to drinkag one
917
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:01.800
dot com slash huberman to get a free bottle of
918
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:04.000
the new Omega three coins on Q ten with your
919
00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:08.360
first ag one subscription for somebody's first non tandem jump.
920
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:10.519
How high is the plane off the ground?
921
00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:14.760
Thirteen thousand is about average thirteen AGL, So if you're
922
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:19.199
learning in Colorado or another rocky mountain state, you might
923
00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:22.599
only get twelve AGL because you might be up to
924
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:26.000
sixteen to eighteen thousand feet. But there's flying with your
925
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:28.039
belly oriented to the earth. There's people who like to
926
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:31.199
do it vertically, either feet down or head down. People
927
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:34.519
who fly on their back. There are formation jumps where
928
00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:36.159
they'll get a bunch of people together. I think the
929
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:39.719
world record is hundreds of people linked up in free flight.
930
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:40.760
You can watch it from the ground.
931
00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:42.599
It's crazy to see.
932
00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:45.840
They'll have eight aircraft and you just see these just
933
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:48.559
people bombing out of the back and they'll make these
934
00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:51.199
snowflake configurations, and people just sitting there on the ground watching,
935
00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:54.440
either naked eye or with binoculars. And then at break
936
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.360
off altitude, everybody's tracking away and then all these canopies
937
00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.840
open up, and then on landing it gets a little
938
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:02.079
bit wild, so it can get as much as you want.
939
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:04.760
And then wingsuiting is just a part of that. But
940
00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:07.840
you can jump of a smaller wingsuit. So if the
941
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:10.599
suits I ended up jumping had a lot of fabric
942
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:13.920
because I wanted to have a nice glide ratio and
943
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:16.039
I wanted to be able to extend the amount of
944
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:17.960
time in the air, you can get suits with a
945
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:21.159
smaller wing which gives you more maneuverability, and you learn
946
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.360
in those and then get a little bit bigger, a
947
00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:26.480
little bit bigger and bigger and bigger, so as safely
948
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:30.079
as possible, graduating your way towards those larger suits that
949
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.199
can have more consequence. You can end up on your
950
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:35.960
back in the wingsuits and flat spins, and I've seen
951
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:37.559
people you can.
952
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:37.880
Get out of it.
953
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:39.159
You need to get out of it quickly, but we're
954
00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:42.400
talking fully blown red eyes when they get to the
955
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:47.320
ground from centrifical force, and pretty quick too. That's the
956
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:51.599
skydiving world. Two parachutes. The base jumping world is you're
957
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:54.920
now down to one parachute that is packed very similar
958
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.079
to a reserve, but it's packed now by the jumper
959
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.840
who is doing the base jumping. And the reason for
960
00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:01.800
the that is you are generally very close to the
961
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:04.159
ground at an altitude where a reserve isn't going to
962
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:06.000
save you because it does take a couple hundred feet
963
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:10.719
for a reserve to open up. And in the US
964
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:13.119
there's one place to legally do it twenty four to
965
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.559
seven three sixty five. It's the Parine Bridge up in
966
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.920
Twin Falls, which is where I learned. It's you know,
967
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.360
the legality aspect is if people pursue to go that
968
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.360
they want to go that way, do your research, because
969
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:27.920
there's some cities that had some problems with it, so
970
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:29.960
they made it a felony, which will change your life.
971
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:32.000
If you want to test gravity off of the building.
972
00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:34.360
I don't know if the capital F is necessarily worth it.
973
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:36.840
Vegas and New York are two good examples of that.
974
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.800
Most people start off with that bridge, and then an
975
00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:44.639
antenna is of course exactly that radio antennas, and there
976
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.719
are other countries in the world where that is legal
977
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.440
to do, and a lot of times people will travel buildings.
978
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.559
You can get permission depending I know one of your
979
00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:55.719
guys worked with Red Bull, not for Red Bull, he
980
00:45:55.719 --> 00:45:58.880
clarified for us shockingly enough, if you write a large check,
981
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:02.920
things that were one illegal can become legal for short
982
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:04.960
periods of time, so they will get permission to go
983
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.000
off of buildings. Or you can go to Dubai where,
984
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:09.599
for I think it was a year they had this
985
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:12.440
huge just it was fully just set up for legal
986
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:14.400
base jumping off one of the top floors of one
987
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.880
of those skyscrapers, which is unbelievable, and then earth, which
988
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:23.840
is obviously that and cliffs. My first base jump off
989
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:27.480
of a actually it was from the bridge. I have
990
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:32.719
actually I have done an antenna buildings, not many bitty buildings,
991
00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:35.719
not many buildings, but my first jump off the earth
992
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:41.840
was Monte Brento in Italy. Which you jump open your canopy, land,
993
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.079
walk across the street and there's an Italian espresso just
994
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.920
waiting for you. Perfect It's basically heaven. And then we
995
00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:49.199
stayed there for two and a half weeks and went
996
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:52.639
into lader brun And in Switzerland. But I had been
997
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.639
skott having and flying a wingsuit. Then I had to
998
00:46:56.679 --> 00:46:58.559
learn how to base jump, and then at some point
999
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:00.800
you have to combine those two. So one day you
1000
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:04.239
have to go from never having pushed off of a
1001
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:07.760
cliff in a wingsuit and having time flying it in
1002
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:10.920
the air to kind of bridging that gap where now
1003
00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:12.639
you have this first four seconds that you have to
1004
00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:15.519
deal with where the suit feels really sloppy, it doesn't
1005
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:19.079
feel rigid, and you can't really do anything until it.
1006
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:21.159
Powers up and you can pull away.
1007
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:25.039
So that's kind of the activities. The why I can't
1008
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.639
answer for anybody other than myself, but the why for
1009
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:30.400
me actually had nothing.
1010
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:31.800
To do with the activity itself.
1011
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:34.480
And it is dangerous. There are some people who try
1012
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:38.119
to romanticize the danger of that. And if people want
1013
00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:41.639
to participate in things because they're dangerous and that's how
1014
00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:43.800
they want to define themselves, I leave that to you
1015
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:46.760
just you know, be aware of the potential consequences you
1016
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:50.159
might get yourself into. For me, I got into that
1017
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:52.199
about three years after I got out of the Navy,
1018
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:55.239
and I didn't realize what it was I enjoyed so much,
1019
00:47:55.800 --> 00:48:00.760
But it was the mental reset associated with that at
1020
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:03.440
about one minute out on a helicopter for me, And
1021
00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:06.559
I can only speak for me, your entire you know,
1022
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:14.519
talking about time your entire circle of concern goes away,
1023
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:18.079
completely gone. And there are very few times in my
1024
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:21.239
life where I've ever been able to get into that headspace,
1025
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:24.719
but it might be the most powerful headspace I've ever
1026
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.519
been able to arrive into. And my ability to find
1027
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:32.760
my way there lasted for months afterwards, because overseas, yeah,
1028
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:35.559
they ask you to do some some bizarre stuff, but
1029
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:38.840
you also likely, at some point in your career will
1030
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:40.800
have a family, maybe.
1031
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:41.960
Your first house, whatever it is, and.
1032
00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:44.719
Like fucking the washing machine just broke and you're dealing
1033
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:46.639
with real life stuff. Did I did I write enough
1034
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:49.039
checks before I left that before the digital age? Did
1035
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:51.400
I write enough checks before I left to make sure
1036
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:53.079
that the rent was already paid? These are the things
1037
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.679
you're thinking about, just normal everyday life. And an argument with
1038
00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:57.760
your spouse, your kids, the holidays. You may have missed
1039
00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:00.400
all that stuff. Get on a helicopter and you start
1040
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:03.719
heading towards an objective, and all that stuff starts to
1041
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:06.239
go away and about for me about the one minute
1042
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:09.519
and in until it lands or you're stepping off.
1043
00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:12.719
It becomes this focus on the.
1044
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:16.119
Next three seconds of your life is the only thing
1045
00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:17.920
I was capable of thinking about.
1046
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:20.400
And that is such a beautiful place.
1047
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:25.920
God, you want to talk about the ability to perform
1048
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:29.519
and not feel like you're necessarily you're not trying to
1049
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:32.239
force it, you're just There's books been written about the
1050
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:35.199
flow state, for lack of a better term, incredibly impactful.
1051
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:39.599
And I didn't realize how much I needed that, And
1052
00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:42.119
I didn't realize how much that job was providing for
1053
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:45.599
me until it was gone. And then the static of
1054
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:50.719
everyday life just is overwhelming. Skydiving, I guess you could
1055
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:52.760
get that, or maybe I got that when I first started.
1056
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:57.159
But after a few thousand jumps about everything that's going
1057
00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:59.159
to go wrong, you're going to have your first cutaway.
1058
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:00.280
You're going to have them out, you know, I mean,
1059
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:01.960
you're going to deal with your gear, your reserve, is
1060
00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:05.840
going to open and so that that really narrowed focus,
1061
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:10.360
it actually starts opening back up the base jumping world.
1062
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:12.800
I remember the first time. I was the guy who
1063
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:14.599
taught me. He's like, all right, just climb over the
1064
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:16.360
edge of the rail here and you're looking at four
1065
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:18.480
hundred and eighty six feet. You test the wind by
1066
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:21.280
spitting and if you can, if it drifts past a
1067
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:25.000
certain point, you're good to go. So you can track
1068
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:27.880
your spit to where you are going to deck. If
1069
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:29.599
you don't pull your parachute now on the first one,
1070
00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:31.480
he's holding onto the pilot shoote so it rips it
1071
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:32.920
off for you, so you're don't have to worry about it,
1072
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:36.440
but you want to talk about that right back into
1073
00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:40.119
that space. Holy cow, that's what base jumping was for me.
1074
00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:44.880
I had some of the deepest conversations with my friends
1075
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:46.800
on the four hour hikes that would lead to a
1076
00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:51.360
ninety second jug and two weeks of those ninety second jumps,
1077
00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:54.079
I could get myself into such a more dialed head
1078
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:58.440
space for six months and be better at business, better
1079
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:01.519
at you know, a more patient thought other, more patient husband.
1080
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:07.679
That to me is why, and at some point it
1081
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:10.000
probably due to the death of my friends, and I
1082
00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:12.960
had found other activities that had started to provide that
1083
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:16.920
it crossed the metric for me where the risk was
1084
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:20.199
no longer worth the reward I have been Scott having
1085
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:22.559
since nineteen ninety nine. I could take five years off
1086
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:24.519
and go jump out of an airplane and I'd be fine,
1087
00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:26.840
But I can't do that in the base jumping world.
1088
00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:30.320
The currency and competency piece is so important. And then
1089
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:32.480
when I moved to Montana, my access to the drop
1090
00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:35.360
zones and the ability to maintain currency and competency in
1091
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:39.719
that wingsuit really decreased. So it got to a place
1092
00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:42.719
where it just it wasn't worth the risk. Scott Having
1093
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.800
still a bunch of fun, but I found other activities
1094
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:48.559
that I could kind of lose myself in, maybe not
1095
00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:50.320
to the same I don't think to the same degree.
1096
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:54.760
I it's hard to describe zipping up in that suit
1097
00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:58.440
with a maximal heart rate to the point where you're
1098
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.639
looking over your buddies like, hey, are you hearing my
1099
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:03.599
heart too? Because it's pretty loud. It's about you, you
1100
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:05.599
know what I mean, Like that thrush in your.
1101
00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:09.039
Ears that's informative to hear that your heart was maxed
1102
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:12.280
out because I wondered if you know if adrenaline was low,
1103
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:14.760
if it was high, you know, if something had happened
1104
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:17.559
systematically over the years in the teams where your adrenaline
1105
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:19.159
was set too low, you need to crank it above
1106
00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:21.880
a certain threshold. Sounds like you were right where any
1107
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:25.400
rational person would be, which was terrified.
1108
00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:27.000
Because at some point you grab your little tail wing
1109
00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:29.039
and you make a little nice little teepee with it,
1110
00:52:29.079 --> 00:52:31.960
and you get your toes to the edge and you
1111
00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:34.920
check all your stuff, and then you are just looking
1112
00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:38.440
out into the abyss and you have to make.
1113
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:40.920
Yourself rock forward past.
1114
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:44.599
The point of no return that if you change your mind, hohopsies,
1115
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:46.920
that doesn't work anymore, and then you need to have
1116
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:50.039
maximal human performance for about the next four seconds of
1117
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:50.639
your life.
1118
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:52.480
If you want your life to continue.
1119
00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:56.280
So if you're not scared in that environment, I would
1120
00:52:56.360 --> 00:52:59.239
recommend you stop that activity immediately because you're not paying attention.
1121
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:04.400
It was terrifying, and that's probably why I liked it
1122
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:07.480
so much. It was awesome, don't get me wrong, Ripping
1123
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:09.559
down a mountain in Switzerland, six feet off the ground,
1124
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:12.639
almost playing tag with your shadow, and then turning around
1125
00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:14.840
in like carving through trees amazing.
1126
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:16.800
So you're actually pretty low to the ground, just going
1127
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:19.119
very very fast. You want to ver steep ground.
1128
00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:21.280
Yes, if you want to be not everybody chooses to
1129
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:23.119
fly that way, and you can. You can have on
1130
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:27.400
the exact same jump. I can think of one very specifically.
1131
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:29.599
It's at the far end of the valley in Switzerland.
1132
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:31.599
It's a four hour high cup and it's I mean,
1133
00:53:31.639 --> 00:53:35.000
you're getting water at in your you know, canteen or
1134
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:37.599
analogene out of like these glacially just spouting out of
1135
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:39.639
the rocks, and there's sheep and stuff, and you know,
1136
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:41.360
it's like a postcard.
1137
00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:42.960
You walk for four hours.
1138
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:45.679
You can have a really aggressive jump on that and
1139
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:48.000
fly for sixty seconds, or you could flat in your
1140
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:49.679
suit out and just glide and fled for two and
1141
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:53.039
a half minutes. Same jump, different choices, not that you know,
1142
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:55.559
necessarily flying farther out you still need to pack your
1143
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:58.079
parachute correctly in all those things. But you're likelihood impacting
1144
00:53:58.079 --> 00:53:59.679
a tree at one hundred miles an hour with your
1145
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:03.239
face is a lot better than flying six feet off
1146
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:06.840
the ground around corners that hopefully you've done some test
1147
00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:09.159
jumps on and gotten lower and lower and lower and lower,
1148
00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:11.840
instead of just flashpoint in that thing, hoping for the
1149
00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:13.280
best as you come around the corner.
1150
00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.559
Which people do. How fast are you moving when you're
1151
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:16.400
above the ground.
1152
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:19.039
If you really bend those suits over, I'd say you
1153
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:20.760
could get them to about one hundred and twenty.
1154
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:28.320
Face first. You're a human missile. It's awesome. I can
1155
00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:32.119
you know those of us like myself listening to this
1156
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:34.400
can only wonder right, I can.
1157
00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:37.159
Feel it in this suit. So again the ram air inlets.
1158
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.280
When you're a little bit flatter, flying slow, you just
1159
00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:42.039
it feels like you're on an air mattress. Is really
1160
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:45.159
what flying feels like. As you bend the suit over
1161
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:49.639
and you're just violently diving at the ground, you can
1162
00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:53.039
feel the suit. It's almost like it's just your power
1163
00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:54.960
meter is just all the way up. And so if
1164
00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:56.639
you get in trouble, you can flatten that out, and
1165
00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:59.119
that's how that's your safety. You can disconnect from the terrain,
1166
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:02.239
which is how unfortunately some people die. They're not paying
1167
00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:04.719
attention to that sensation and they're slowly getting flatter and
1168
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:08.159
flatter and flatter and flatter. Then they encounter flat terrain
1169
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:09.960
and they don't have enough performance in the suit to
1170
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:13.480
clear it, and they impact. But that when you're pitched
1171
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:16.400
over like that and that thing is just and you,
1172
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:22.320
it feels like you are licking the largest nine.
1173
00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:26.920
Bolt battery you've ever looked in your life. Would your
1174
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:29.760
parents say that this is a window into the young
1175
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:34.599
Andy stumf or or is this a departure or an evolution?
1176
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:36.000
Devolution evolution?
1177
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:38.880
I don't know if they would have called that one.
1178
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.679
I don't think. I don't know if I would have
1179
00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:44.760
called that activity. If I would have said this one
1180
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:45.920
was going to be interesting to me.
1181
00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:48.239
Let me ask you this when you were a kid,
1182
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:50.480
not recommending anyone do this, but when you were a
1183
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.880
kid and you and your guy friends someone found one
1184
00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:56.599
of the larger fire crackers available. Were you the kid
1185
00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:59.679
that would hold it after it was lit until the
1186
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:02.000
last second and then throw it? Because I knew that kid,
1187
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:04.639
but it wasn't me because he still had both hands. Yes,
1188
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.599
but the it was great skateboarder, by the way, because
1189
00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:10.519
pro skateboarder right out of high school moved on to
1190
00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:12.920
other things eventually. I think those things were correlated, right,
1191
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:14.480
I mean, he used to big railings like he had
1192
00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:17.840
a very very good relationship with confronting fear. There was
1193
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:20.079
another kid in our crew who would have been around
1194
00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:22.400
the corner the moment the thing came out. Okay, I
1195
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.280
was neither of those kids. Yeah right, and then there's
1196
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:27.559
a distribution in the middle. Yeah, where were you?
1197
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.360
My answer is not going to make sense to you
1198
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:32.719
because holding it that long sounds dangerous.
1199
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:36.639
It is dangerous, I know that's.
1200
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:37.960
What I'm saying. It's not going to make sense. That
1201
00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:38.800
sounds dangerous.
1202
00:56:39.039 --> 00:56:39.239
Huh.
1203
00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:41.440
But just for the sake of danger, which somebody could
1204
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:44.320
one hundred percent say about base jumping as well. But
1205
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:46.960
I don't know if holding on to say an M
1206
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:50.960
eighty and wondering you know how long you can provides
1207
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:54.679
for you that mental I mean, I'm talking about your
1208
00:56:54.719 --> 00:56:57.960
canopy opens you land, You're laying in a fucking meadow
1209
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:03.199
in Switzerland on your back like at a sense of
1210
00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:06.719
ease and peace. I don't think you're getting that from
1211
00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:07.280
an M eighty.
1212
00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:09.480
No. The reason I ask is that you know, there
1213
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:11.360
are a lot of questions that the scientist in me
1214
00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:14.360
wants to know about, you know, resetting of adrenaline set
1215
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:17.239
points and you know, and because people can become desensitized
1216
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:20.719
to sure to high risk, high consequence type situations.
1217
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:22.960
You see that in the wing suiting community, I would
1218
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:25.239
say specifically the wingsuit based jumping community.
1219
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:26.960
The fatality rate is high.
1220
00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:30.599
I would never tell anybody that it is a safe activity,
1221
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:31.440
but I think you can do it.
1222
00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:32.639
As safely as possible.
1223
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:35.400
There's still immense residual risk. So you have to ask
1224
00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:36.719
yourself what is it worth.
1225
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:40.960
If we were to plot out number of wingsuit jumps
1226
00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:47.639
and plot fatality time of fatality relative to first jump, right,
1227
00:57:47.719 --> 00:57:49.920
so that the question like the area under the curve?
1228
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:52.559
So are you getting to address what you just said?
1229
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:55.519
Are you getting more deaths the longer people have been
1230
00:57:55.519 --> 00:57:57.880
doing it, independent of the number of jumps, right? They
1231
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:00.480
can't really do that experiment. It's not a perfect experiment.
1232
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:03.679
The question is are people getting more dangerous to themselves
1233
00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:10.440
because they they're pushing further and further into the abyss,
1234
00:58:10.519 --> 00:58:14.039
getting closer to the edge taking risks, or is the
1235
00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:15.960
novice more dangerous because they're a novice.
1236
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:19.639
I think the Dunning Kruger effect is always the most
1237
00:58:19.719 --> 00:58:22.440
dangerous aspect of it. I think you would probably track
1238
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:29.599
you certainly see people, especially in the content age. I've
1239
00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:32.360
seen people reach out not to me, but to forums. Hey,
1240
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:34.360
I just want to get into wingsuit base jumping as
1241
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:38.559
fast as possible, and everybody out there is like, WHOA, no,
1242
00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:40.719
you need to go. I mean most people will recommend
1243
00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:43.039
Scott having two hundred jumps to even before you put
1244
00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:45.480
a wingsuit on, which for most people who aren't doing
1245
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.559
it professionally, that's going to take a year or two.
1246
00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:50.719
It's a slow progression. But that person reaching out saying
1247
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:53.599
that doesn't have time for that. So you're definitely going
1248
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:56.280
to get some people early on. The guys who are
1249
00:58:56.320 --> 00:58:59.360
around the longest, the ones that I know who are
1250
00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:01.239
kind of the tight in the sport. It's not that
1251
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:04.039
I don't worry about them. I worry less. I think
1252
00:59:04.039 --> 00:59:06.800
it's maybe more honestly, I think it's that Dunning Cruger
1253
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.719
curve where it's going to get people, especially when let's
1254
00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:12.719
say you do this amazing jomp right you're ripping around
1255
00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:16.559
a corner, and things you learn later on like hey,
1256
00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:20.960
is it uscending or descending thermals? Right now? Where's the
1257
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:23.599
wind coming from? What type of day is this is
1258
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:27.960
the slope? I'm just jumped off. Maybe it was a
1259
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:31.519
western facing slope that I jumped towards, and I felt
1260
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:33.760
this amazing uprush of air, which is what you want
1261
00:59:33.760 --> 00:59:35.440
to feel on an exit point. Same thing is why
1262
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:37.719
airplanes take off into the wind. It helps with performance.
1263
00:59:38.239 --> 00:59:38.559
Well.
1264
00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:42.599
As I am cruising down this mountain, am I thinking
1265
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:44.719
about the fact that three quarters of it is covered
1266
00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:47.400
in the shade and maybe the thermals have switched along
1267
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:49.559
the way and you're going to start feeling this pressure
1268
00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:52.880
of almost a hand on your back. You do it
1269
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:56.760
the first time you do that jump and you survive.
1270
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:01.880
The dangerous thing to say is nailed it? But did
1271
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:03.599
you nail it? Or did you get away with it?
1272
01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:07.320
And that's what kills people. And that's that perfect Dunning
1273
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:08.880
Kruger ascending line.
1274
01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:12.280
And there's a quote that should be stamped into everyone's brain,
1275
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:14.639
young and old, did you nail it or did you
1276
01:00:14.679 --> 01:00:17.320
get away with it? Because it's translates to a lot
1277
01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:19.920
of areas of life. They could spare people a lot
1278
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:24.119
of pain in some important insights. I got away with.
1279
01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:25.480
It more than I nailed it.
1280
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:27.960
I am Are you just being humble? No?
1281
01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:32.519
No, you don't know what you don't know until you
1282
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:36.400
see somebody else get bit by the same thing, or
1283
01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:38.320
you're on a jump with somebody and only one of
1284
01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:40.039
the three makes it out, or two of the three
1285
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:42.119
makes it out, and they all had the same idea
1286
01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:42.800
and plan.
1287
01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:44.639
And you describe some of that in your book. I
1288
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:45.840
don't want to get that story away.
1289
01:00:45.960 --> 01:00:49.000
Yeah, with Alex specifically, I wasn't there for Alex's jump,
1290
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:53.159
but I had jumped with Alex enough for years. The
1291
01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:55.599
one thing I wish I could do looking back with
1292
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:58.280
him is I was there with him for some close
1293
01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:02.960
calls that he had a few were bad decisions that
1294
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:05.880
he I would like to think corrected for. Because there
1295
01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:08.639
is a phase in anything that you're doing that my
1296
01:01:09.760 --> 01:01:12.679
instructor taught me how to fly helicopters, He's like, listen,
1297
01:01:12.880 --> 01:01:14.800
once you know better, you can do better.
1298
01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:16.559
But there's a phase.
1299
01:01:16.360 --> 01:01:19.000
Where you don't know any better, and so you think
1300
01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:21.880
what you're doing is correct until either somebody points it out,
1301
01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:25.000
where you watch something so horrific happen, and you pay
1302
01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:29.039
attention to an investigation afterwards or a debrief afterwards, and
1303
01:01:29.119 --> 01:01:33.159
you can learn from that. But with Alex, I wish
1304
01:01:33.239 --> 01:01:35.840
I could go back and just honestly slap him around
1305
01:01:35.880 --> 01:01:37.119
a little bit, because that's what it would take for
1306
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:39.400
him to pay attention. He would be appreciative of it,
1307
01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:42.119
I think if he understood what it would save. But
1308
01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:48.000
I would associate his death directly also with that Dunning
1309
01:01:48.039 --> 01:01:50.199
Krueger curve. And he had been doing it for years.
1310
01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:52.679
That doesn't mean you're out of that. It's that middle
1311
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:55.559
area where you think you have everything dialed. I think
1312
01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:57.239
he had gotten away with it more than he had
1313
01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:58.480
nailed it, and I had to.
1314
01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:02.960
Would you let your kids squirrel suit?
1315
01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:04.599
Do I have the right stop them?
1316
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:07.440
Yes? No.
1317
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:13.000
Knowing the risk, I mean I would do everything I
1318
01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:16.320
could to prepare them as much as possible, And by
1319
01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:18.719
that I mean scare the absolute dog shit out of
1320
01:02:18.760 --> 01:02:21.760
them with the reality and confront them with the actual
1321
01:02:21.800 --> 01:02:25.320
reality of it, show them how long it would actually take,
1322
01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:28.880
what they would need to do, what they would need
1323
01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:31.000
to sacrifice in order to be able to get at
1324
01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:38.840
that level. But then if they wanted to make that choice,
1325
01:02:39.039 --> 01:02:41.400
I don't feel like I have the right to stand
1326
01:02:41.800 --> 01:02:43.400
in between them and that desire.
1327
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:47.960
Appreciate the honest answer, I'm I'm sure they do too.
1328
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:50.599
I don't know if your wife appreciates that particular answer,
1329
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:52.920
but we'll ask her. I don't get involved in marital disputes.
1330
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:57.480
That's a we don't have any Our relationship is perfect, excellent,
1331
01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:00.800
excellent answer. Wait, you've been married before, Now that was
1332
01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:01.119
a joke.
1333
01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:03.159
That is correct. I tell you what I learned, some stuff.
1334
01:03:03.559 --> 01:03:07.639
I learned some stuff. You talk very openly in the book,
1335
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:09.880
I mean to the extent you don't reveal specifics, but
1336
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:15.159
about the challenges of the ending of that first marriage.
1337
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.000
Hardest thing I've ever done in my life. People think
1338
01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:20.679
that being a seal is hard, and it is, but
1339
01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:23.360
a lot of that is truncated with, Hey, we're going
1340
01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:25.400
to go overseas for this short period of time and
1341
01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:28.559
time away and it can be physiologically and psychologically challenging,
1342
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:33.360
but once you're in that community. I didn't encounter anything.
1343
01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:37.679
The military never asked me to do anything that got
1344
01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:40.119
me to a place where I was judging or asking
1345
01:03:40.159 --> 01:03:45.320
myself what type of person I was, or if I
1346
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:48.880
was a good enough person to be able to continue
1347
01:03:48.920 --> 01:03:52.280
going forward with anybody other than just myself. Like those questions.
1348
01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:55.519
I wasn't asking myself in the military. At the lowest
1349
01:03:55.519 --> 01:03:58.119
points of a nearly to year divorce process that was
1350
01:03:58.360 --> 01:04:01.000
very contentious and quite frankly. Reason I don't go into
1351
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:03.920
details is I have built a larger or a platform
1352
01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:05.679
and my ex wife doesn't have one, and that's the
1353
01:04:05.719 --> 01:04:06.480
fairest way.
1354
01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:07.840
To be about it, and I totally respect that.
1355
01:04:07.960 --> 01:04:10.159
If people want to go talk with her, trust me,
1356
01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:11.639
I know the story you're going to get. Enjoy it.
1357
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:13.400
Believe what you want to believe. I always tell people
1358
01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:15.760
if you hear bad stuff about me, please believe it.
1359
01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:17.079
That's what you tell them.
1360
01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:22.400
Yeah, I'm like, why not? I am certainly not everybody's
1361
01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:22.960
cup of tea.
1362
01:04:23.559 --> 01:04:27.639
There's no way to please everybody ever, amen to that.
1363
01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:31.880
So if somebody is out there who wants to run
1364
01:04:31.880 --> 01:04:35.159
me through the mud, cool, just believe every word that
1365
01:04:35.559 --> 01:04:37.079
you are told if you want to. But if you
1366
01:04:37.079 --> 01:04:39.280
want to get the real spit, come hang out with
1367
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:41.119
me for a bit and maybe compare and contrast those
1368
01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:41.599
two things.
1369
01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:42.400
But if you don't want to.
1370
01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:45.400
Do that, cool, Yeah, that's on you. It took every
1371
01:04:45.400 --> 01:04:46.920
tool that I wrote about in that book to get
1372
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:49.480
through that circle of influence, circle of concern, all the
1373
01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:51.360
things that I was worried about. What can I do today?
1374
01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:55.519
Breaking time down into the shortest chunks humanly possible, controlling
1375
01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:59.840
how I talk to myself. It was absolutely soul crushing
1376
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:05.519
and ten out of ten do not recommend. Yeah, the
1377
01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:08.559
zero stars on trip Advisor. Yeah, that portion of the
1378
01:05:08.559 --> 01:05:10.639
book stopped me, I have to say.
1379
01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:14.599
And there were other parts of the book that paused
1380
01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:16.960
me where I was like, well, I didn't expect this coming,
1381
01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:19.239
And you know, I take notes on what I listened to.
1382
01:05:19.280 --> 01:05:21.000
I also read the hard copy. I should have mentioned
1383
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:23.039
that earlier. I like to do both. It's really helpful
1384
01:05:23.079 --> 01:05:25.400
for me. I think maybe other people would benefit from
1385
01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:27.920
that as well. But that segment where you said, this
1386
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:30.760
is the hardest thing I'd ever been through, and it was,
1387
01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:34.039
as you put it again, soul crushing. And what I
1388
01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:37.880
gathered was and I certainly can't say I've experienced this
1389
01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:42.159
before in a different context, that when other people's narratives
1390
01:05:42.199 --> 01:05:46.400
start to the boundaries between other people's narratives and your narratives.
1391
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:49.159
And then and in your case, kids were being affected,
1392
01:05:49.199 --> 01:05:53.280
which is huge. As a child of divorced parents, I
1393
01:05:53.320 --> 01:05:56.039
think it's also probably got to be somewhat different. I mean,
1394
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:59.119
you talk very kindly of your own parents, your story
1395
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:01.960
of your relationship to your mom and no passing, which
1396
01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:04.920
we can also get to. That also stopped me. Also
1397
01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:08.360
got me to call my mom, so she'll thank you, right,
1398
01:06:08.440 --> 01:06:12.000
I call my mom. You know, well, you know, and
1399
01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:13.960
you know, and you never know how much you have left.
1400
01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:15.679
You never know how much time you have left. But
1401
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:20.280
what inspired you to talk about that in particular? I
1402
01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:23.159
know you're not one of these guys and you know,
1403
01:06:23.199 --> 01:06:25.119
I don't want to say team guys in particular, but
1404
01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:26.559
you're not one of these guys who wants to paint
1405
01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:29.480
a perfect picture of himself. Yeah, but talking about how
1406
01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:34.079
a contentious divorce came close to you know, brought you
1407
01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:36.400
really close to your edge, maybe to your edge, but
1408
01:06:36.519 --> 01:06:39.239
fortunately not over it. It's an interesting choice and one
1409
01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:41.800
that I appreciate, and I know readers will appreciate. It
1410
01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:45.039
humanized the whole thing. But at what point did you
1411
01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:46.679
decide that you wanted that in the book?
1412
01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:49.440
I mean, probably from the beginning. I think one of
1413
01:06:49.480 --> 01:06:52.000
the biggest mistakes people would make is if they would
1414
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:53.519
look at a job like the one I used to
1415
01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:57.039
have and think that the people who do it are
1416
01:06:57.079 --> 01:07:01.079
not normal people. I was talking with Chrisilliamson about this,
1417
01:07:01.719 --> 01:07:04.440
and it's a mistake that people make. There's no Captain
1418
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:08.400
America's shield and cape and cow that you actually wear.
1419
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:12.159
The things they ask you to do are sometimes pretty.
1420
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:13.280
Nutty, but.
1421
01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:20.440
After that, you go take your gear off, clean yourself up,
1422
01:07:20.599 --> 01:07:24.599
get some food, get together with the guys, and you
1423
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:27.679
just talk about normal day to day shit. If you
1424
01:07:28.239 --> 01:07:31.039
were having an argument with your wife before you went
1425
01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:34.480
out on an operation, you're coming back to that. If
1426
01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:39.199
your house had burned down, which I wish I could
1427
01:07:39.199 --> 01:07:41.000
say I didn't know somebody's house burned down, but I did.
1428
01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:44.440
They got that notification shortly before we went out an objective.
1429
01:07:45.079 --> 01:07:48.000
Hopefully didn't allow that to invade their mental thought process
1430
01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:50.800
during but when they came back, that's what they're dealing with.
1431
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:53.639
Then you come back from deployment and you're presented with
1432
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:57.039
all of those things. It's just it is such a
1433
01:07:57.079 --> 01:07:58.280
mistake to think that.
1434
01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:00.800
There are people out there who have.
1435
01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:04.480
Everything figured out or that are impervious to the things
1436
01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:08.920
that are damaging to you as the person. I started
1437
01:08:08.960 --> 01:08:12.119
doing Q and A sessions on Friday for my show
1438
01:08:12.199 --> 01:08:15.320
because I kept getting just this volume and wave of
1439
01:08:15.400 --> 01:08:18.560
emails and At first, I wasn't really trying to, you know,
1440
01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:20.479
trunch them into buckets, and I thought if I started
1441
01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:22.920
doing the Friday episodes it would decrease, but instead it
1442
01:08:23.239 --> 01:08:26.359
multiplied them by orders of magnitude, and I realized there
1443
01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:28.960
really were some deep themes.
1444
01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:29.319
You know.
1445
01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:31.479
One of them is I just don't know how to
1446
01:08:31.479 --> 01:08:34.399
get started on my goals. But another one is, and
1447
01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:37.760
this is the most dangerous one. I feel like I'm alone.
1448
01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:41.159
I feel like I'm the only person dealing with this.
1449
01:08:43.039 --> 01:08:45.359
How can you give me some advice. I look at
1450
01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:47.720
your life from the outside, and it seems like you
1451
01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:49.319
just have You know, you were able to do all
1452
01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:52.039
these hard physical things. What would you do if you
1453
01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:52.319
were me?
1454
01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:53.199
Dude?
1455
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:57.159
I am you, So you have to put that in there.
1456
01:08:57.319 --> 01:08:59.239
How can you not? I mean, at the end of
1457
01:08:59.239 --> 01:09:00.399
the day, I don't know what I want to do
1458
01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:02.640
with my life, but I want to try to help people.
1459
01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:06.000
I don't think you can do that if you're trying
1460
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:09.039
to sell bullshit. But I do think you can help
1461
01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:11.760
if you can talk about your own personal experiences and
1462
01:09:11.760 --> 01:09:14.760
your own mistakes and the the things that you have
1463
01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:17.960
suffered with. Not always past tense. Because my life is
1464
01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:19.640
certainly not perfect when I go through seasons of my
1465
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:22.800
life now, as does everybody. Why not be honest about that?
1466
01:09:22.840 --> 01:09:27.319
Why try to portray this? You know, follow my twelve
1467
01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:29.680
step program for nineteen ninety nine every month and you're
1468
01:09:29.680 --> 01:09:31.000
going to have it all figured out. Those are some
1469
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:33.159
of the most unhappy people that I know, by the way,
1470
01:09:33.199 --> 01:09:36.279
and oftentimes not nearly as successful as they are presenting themselves.
1471
01:09:36.279 --> 01:09:38.119
Definitely, I would rather.
1472
01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:41.439
Just be like, listen, you think your life is bad,
1473
01:09:41.640 --> 01:09:42.279
why don't you put.
1474
01:09:42.159 --> 01:09:43.880
A seatbelt on your chair. I've got a little story
1475
01:09:43.880 --> 01:09:44.159
for you.
1476
01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:46.760
And then people here they're like, what you mean. You
1477
01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:49.000
guys deal with that stuff too. It's like, yes, that's
1478
01:09:49.039 --> 01:09:52.119
the whole point. You're not alone, You're not unique in this.
1479
01:09:53.119 --> 01:09:55.199
So I think from the very beginning of deciding to
1480
01:09:55.199 --> 01:09:58.039
write it, I didn't know necessarily that I would that
1481
01:09:58.079 --> 01:10:02.159
I would use that particular example. But if it was
1482
01:10:02.199 --> 01:10:04.680
the most difficult thing I've done in my life, I'm
1483
01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:08.000
obligated to put that in there and talk about it
1484
01:10:08.039 --> 01:10:10.680
as openly as possible while maintaining the privacy of the
1485
01:10:10.720 --> 01:10:11.600
other person involved.
1486
01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:15.439
Yeah, I was impressed how you maintained respect for your kids,
1487
01:10:15.479 --> 01:10:18.720
for your ex wife your current relationship, you know, and
1488
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:23.399
at the same time acknowledge that the exchange was anything
1489
01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:24.000
but cordial.
1490
01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:26.039
It was anything but cordial. And you know, I've talked
1491
01:10:26.039 --> 01:10:28.439
about this before and I don't know if it made
1492
01:10:28.439 --> 01:10:30.640
it in the book, but I lost contact with my
1493
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:33.279
oldest son for eighteen months. I was the one who
1494
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:36.680
initiated the end of the relationship, and he was the
1495
01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:38.479
oldest at the time, and I don't know if it
1496
01:10:38.520 --> 01:10:41.079
was a matter of him being in a certain phase
1497
01:10:41.119 --> 01:10:42.159
of his own life.
1498
01:10:42.159 --> 01:10:43.960
And you know the deal, being a.
1499
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:48.159
Young man is not the easiest path, nor as being
1500
01:10:48.199 --> 01:10:50.880
a young woman by any stretch. But it's really interesting
1501
01:10:50.880 --> 01:10:54.199
how adults forget how difficult it was in those years
1502
01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:56.359
to just get through the day when you think that
1503
01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:58.039
everything is you don't even know who you are, you're
1504
01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:02.920
trying to figure it all out. Eighteen months. I tried
1505
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:07.399
calling him, I tried texting him, I tried writing him
1506
01:11:07.800 --> 01:11:11.000
letters to his mom's house. I would pull up next
1507
01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:12.680
to him at a parking lot that he would go
1508
01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:15.279
to before he went to work, and he would burn
1509
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:18.880
out out of the parking lot without even acknowledging that
1510
01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:21.840
I was there. And you think seal training is hard.
1511
01:11:22.319 --> 01:11:25.800
Imagine something that you don't have the vocabulary.
1512
01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:27.479
To describe how much you love.
1513
01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:31.359
In thinking every day, I don't know if I'm going
1514
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:36.760
to get this back? What else can I do? And now, thankfully,
1515
01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:39.439
by staying the course, I think I have a closer relationship.
1516
01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:43.880
I mean, and not everybody has that outcome, but our
1517
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:47.119
relationship is probably closer than it.
1518
01:11:47.119 --> 01:11:47.720
Has ever been.
1519
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:49.760
And he'll call and ask for my advice or just
1520
01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:52.000
want to bounce stuff off of me, which I think
1521
01:11:52.079 --> 01:11:55.479
is a parent like if your kids are soliciting your
1522
01:11:55.560 --> 01:11:59.239
time to ask questions whatever it is you're doing, stop
1523
01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:02.800
doing that and take the time because it's pretty awesome
1524
01:12:03.399 --> 01:12:06.159
and it means that they care about what you say.
1525
01:12:06.640 --> 01:12:08.479
But I thought that was gone. Man, you want to
1526
01:12:08.479 --> 01:12:10.800
talk about soul searching. It's nothing I did in the
1527
01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:12.520
seal teams that made me wonder whether or not I
1528
01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:15.279
was a good enough man to still exist, But that
1529
01:12:15.359 --> 01:12:16.000
experience did.
1530
01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:19.039
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our
1531
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1532
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1533
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1539
01:12:47.319 --> 01:12:50.479
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1540
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1541
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1542
01:12:55.960 --> 01:12:59.600
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lda cholesterol, and it did. In a follow up test,
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01:13:11.000 --> 01:13:13.000
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1548
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I've been doing blood work for years, it used to
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01:13:17.119 --> 01:13:20.479
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1551
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to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get
1552
01:13:23.199 --> 01:13:25.600
this kind of data, and the data, frankly we're not
1553
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all that good. But now with Function. It's extremely easy
1554
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1555
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1556
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1557
01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:39.119
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1558
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1560
01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:47.960
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01:13:48.039 --> 01:13:51.079
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1562
01:13:51.359 --> 01:13:57.119
that's functionhealth dot com slash Huberman. Wow. Well, I will say,
1563
01:13:58.720 --> 01:14:01.600
as the description of your your final moments with your
1564
01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:04.279
mom led me to call my mom, I wasn't being
1565
01:14:04.319 --> 01:14:07.800
facetious that it really did. You know, the description of
1566
01:14:08.039 --> 01:14:11.000
the divorce process and the challenges that go there that
1567
01:14:11.079 --> 01:14:12.279
you know, I don't want to make this about my
1568
01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:14.880
story resonated in certain ways. Grew up in a very
1569
01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:18.800
high conflict divorce. What you just said. Now, I'm on
1570
01:14:18.800 --> 01:14:21.600
good terms with my dad, but I you know, I'm
1571
01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:23.840
familiar with being the son who wants to be protective
1572
01:14:23.880 --> 01:14:25.720
of his mom but still loves his dad and being
1573
01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:26.439
caught in the middle.
1574
01:14:26.520 --> 01:14:28.159
And I would think about those too. How could you
1575
01:14:28.199 --> 01:14:30.920
not with all three of my kids? How And I
1576
01:14:30.960 --> 01:14:35.880
have this conversation with my wife now, who honestly is
1577
01:14:35.920 --> 01:14:38.359
the only reason that I think I pulled out of
1578
01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:42.239
that was the recognition and seeing from somebody else, like hey,
1579
01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:44.520
just so you know, like I know you're going through it,
1580
01:14:44.560 --> 01:14:47.640
but this person sees something in you that is worthwill
1581
01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:49.479
mean as I dedicated the book my kids and to
1582
01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:53.720
my wife for that reason. But we'll talk about this now,
1583
01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:55.760
because I mean, it's like, why would they say that
1584
01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:57.840
or why would they do that? And she's like, listen,
1585
01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:00.239
that's always going to be their mom. I'm like, yep,
1586
01:15:00.359 --> 01:15:02.279
got it, totally nailed it. I understand now, and it
1587
01:15:02.359 --> 01:15:05.439
recenters and like, okay, doesn't make it any issue to
1588
01:15:05.479 --> 01:15:05.800
deal with.
1589
01:15:06.039 --> 01:15:09.479
But I understand sons and fathers have a certain dynamic,
1590
01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:12.359
and mothers and sons have a certain dynamic, and of
1591
01:15:12.399 --> 01:15:15.439
course mother and daughters fathers. I only know my own experience.
1592
01:15:15.640 --> 01:15:18.680
I do have a sister, so there's a parallel experience.
1593
01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:20.960
There's a control experiment. She wouldn't appreciate me calling her
1594
01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:21.840
the control experiment.
1595
01:15:21.880 --> 01:15:24.279
But did you realize in your parents' divorce that it
1596
01:15:24.319 --> 01:15:27.000
was going bad before it did before they got divorced.
1597
01:15:27.279 --> 01:15:30.319
Definitely, And listen, I've done a lot of work with
1598
01:15:30.359 --> 01:15:32.960
both of my parents too. We're on great terms now.
1599
01:15:33.039 --> 01:15:35.000
I can truly say that my dad was on this podcast.
1600
01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:37.800
I know you've had conversations with your dad publicly. My
1601
01:15:37.880 --> 01:15:40.000
dad and I are quite close, you know, And I
1602
01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:43.079
now look at it differently. I I'm living in a
1603
01:15:43.119 --> 01:15:45.399
state of gratitude these days, where I basically like, Okay,
1604
01:15:45.399 --> 01:15:49.039
they gave me life. It's huge. Like you you can't
1605
01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:50.880
realize that when you're younger, because you're like, you know,
1606
01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:53.199
f my life, you know at times, but they gave
1607
01:15:53.239 --> 01:15:54.960
me life. So there's that they give me so many
1608
01:15:55.000 --> 01:15:58.079
opportunities and then the hardship of those years. I had
1609
01:15:58.119 --> 01:16:00.960
my own story and version of it. But recently, just
1610
01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:03.159
because of some evolutions in my personal life, which are
1611
01:16:03.159 --> 01:16:06.319
all good, I'm like, I'm gonna put myself and my
1612
01:16:06.439 --> 01:16:10.399
dad's try and put myself in my dad's frame where
1613
01:16:10.399 --> 01:16:12.119
he was what he was trying to do in his
1614
01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:15.079
career and in his personal life, and then my mom's frame.
1615
01:16:15.479 --> 01:16:17.439
I confess it's a little harder to do that because
1616
01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:19.760
my dad and I are both male and there's always
1617
01:16:19.760 --> 01:16:21.079
going to be that. But my mom and I were
1618
01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:23.880
still at home and he was living elsewhere. So I've
1619
01:16:23.920 --> 01:16:26.439
tried to really work through it in those ways, and
1620
01:16:26.479 --> 01:16:29.119
I keep coming back to this place where I now
1621
01:16:29.359 --> 01:16:31.560
I go, oh, my god, that must have been so
1622
01:16:31.760 --> 01:16:35.279
hard for them, Like, not for me, Like I mean,
1623
01:16:35.279 --> 01:16:37.279
not years of understanding ab how hard it was for me,
1624
01:16:37.600 --> 01:16:40.279
I go for them. I'm like, holy shit, Like that's
1625
01:16:40.279 --> 01:16:41.960
got to be so tough. I would. I mean, I
1626
01:16:42.039 --> 01:16:43.199
was really hard on my dad.
1627
01:16:43.479 --> 01:16:45.399
How old were you when you realized your parents were
1628
01:16:45.439 --> 01:16:47.840
just people doing the best they could yesterday?
1629
01:16:47.960 --> 01:16:50.159
No, I'm just kidding about that. I mean no, I know.
1630
01:16:50.279 --> 01:16:53.079
I for a long time in life as kids though
1631
01:16:53.119 --> 01:16:58.239
your parents are what they say, gospel and they must
1632
01:16:58.319 --> 01:17:00.880
have the answers to everything because they're older than any
1633
01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:02.039
human beings ever been.
1634
01:17:02.039 --> 01:17:02.600
Oh man.
1635
01:17:02.680 --> 01:17:05.960
And then you realize they are out there making shit
1636
01:17:06.079 --> 01:17:08.439
up on the fly, doing the best they can with
1637
01:17:08.520 --> 01:17:11.720
the data set that they have in front of them,
1638
01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:12.520
not do them great.
1639
01:17:12.760 --> 01:17:14.640
Most of the time. It's not because they're not trying
1640
01:17:14.640 --> 01:17:18.000
to do great. They're just fucking people. Yeah. Well, I
1641
01:17:18.039 --> 01:17:19.840
can't speak for your kids, and I wouldn't, but I
1642
01:17:19.880 --> 01:17:22.920
can say that for me, I joke yesterday, but it
1643
01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:26.239
was actually very young because I came to this kind
1644
01:17:26.279 --> 01:17:28.560
of black and white conclusion which was not the correct one,
1645
01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:31.960
which was they don't know what they're talking about. And
1646
01:17:32.039 --> 01:17:34.199
that led me to go elsewhere to look for answers.
1647
01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:35.960
And I found a lot of answers to a lot
1648
01:17:35.960 --> 01:17:38.399
of things that I wanted. I also found some wrong answers.
1649
01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:41.359
I had great mentors throughout my life, and the day
1650
01:17:41.399 --> 01:17:45.119
you realize that your PhD advisor doesn't have the answers,
1651
01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:47.359
that's when you go get a post talk advisor, and
1652
01:17:47.359 --> 01:17:48.920
then you realize they don't have the answers and you
1653
01:17:48.920 --> 01:17:50.479
go start your own lab, and then you realize, oh
1654
01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:52.319
my god, how hard their job was, because now you're
1655
01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:54.680
dealing with graduate students that are like saying things like
1656
01:17:54.800 --> 01:17:56.760
do you even know what you're doing? Until the paper
1657
01:17:56.760 --> 01:17:58.640
gets accepted and then they're like, oh my god, like
1658
01:17:58.680 --> 01:18:01.119
you really know what you're doing. My first graduates, you
1659
01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:03.039
will laugh when she hears that she's actually a professor
1660
01:18:03.039 --> 01:18:05.119
now with that she has two kids, she's happily married,
1661
01:18:05.119 --> 01:18:08.239
she's a super successful lab. So but and I said,
1662
01:18:08.560 --> 01:18:10.840
have you gone through that evolution and she's like absolutely.
1663
01:18:10.920 --> 01:18:14.600
So I will say this, and again, I can't speak
1664
01:18:14.640 --> 01:18:19.880
for your kids whatsoever, but there was a real benefit
1665
01:18:20.119 --> 01:18:24.079
to having that realization early that they don't know everything
1666
01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:28.119
because you're forced to go look for certain answers elsewhere.
1667
01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:32.600
There's also something really beautiful to the reconnect you know,
1668
01:18:32.640 --> 01:18:34.960
that I have with my dad and my mom and
1669
01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:37.119
I were more constant over the years because as you said,
1670
01:18:37.119 --> 01:18:39.199
the relationship can be that much closer. Would you wish
1671
01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:42.439
it on anyone? Would you wish divorce on anyone? No?
1672
01:18:43.279 --> 01:18:46.319
But at the same time, like you know, my life
1673
01:18:46.319 --> 01:18:48.880
wouldn't be what it was. So that portion of the book,
1674
01:18:48.920 --> 01:18:51.760
I have to say, surprised me. I know you're very humble,
1675
01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:54.239
so please hear this as it lands. It impressed me
1676
01:18:54.479 --> 01:18:55.760
that you were willing to put it in there and
1677
01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:57.600
the way you did and how you handled it, And
1678
01:18:57.640 --> 01:19:00.359
it really got me thinking about my relationship to my dad,
1679
01:19:00.640 --> 01:19:05.000
my own family life now where that's going. And it
1680
01:19:05.039 --> 01:19:09.479
gave me a lot of hope and humility around like
1681
01:19:09.800 --> 01:19:12.760
it's hard being a person, let alone being a parent,
1682
01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:17.520
you know, and and the kid the kid. The kid
1683
01:19:17.560 --> 01:19:20.079
piece is easy to relate to, but it really opened
1684
01:19:20.119 --> 01:19:22.159
my perspective, So I'm grateful to you for putting that
1685
01:19:22.199 --> 01:19:22.560
in there.
1686
01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:25.279
Yeah, I didn't. To me, it just seemed natural. I
1687
01:19:25.279 --> 01:19:26.479
didn't even give it a second thought.
1688
01:19:26.960 --> 01:19:30.960
You're also jumping at off mountain sides and squirrel suits you.
1689
01:19:31.359 --> 01:19:33.399
But I'm telling you, if you've ever tasted that nine
1690
01:19:33.439 --> 01:19:36.000
vault the way I did, you might actually be like, so,
1691
01:19:36.039 --> 01:19:37.520
what is this progression?
1692
01:19:37.680 --> 01:19:39.680
Let's talk about the wingsuit and the nine bolt battery
1693
01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:41.520
a little bit more, because you talked about the state
1694
01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:44.840
that you were in not just during but in the
1695
01:19:44.920 --> 01:19:48.680
six months or so hours laster, So that's not going
1696
01:19:48.760 --> 01:19:51.520
to be the long tail of adrenaline. I'm guessing I
1697
01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:53.520
don't think you were walking around for six months like
1698
01:19:53.640 --> 01:19:57.000
amped on life completely. You were able to dial in.
1699
01:19:57.439 --> 01:19:58.840
Did you talk a little bit more about that? Did
1700
01:19:58.880 --> 01:20:02.520
you ever take time to think about like what is this?
1701
01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:05.520
And did you get that after a gunfight? Did you
1702
01:20:05.560 --> 01:20:10.239
get that after you know, a funeral? You've gone to
1703
01:20:10.319 --> 01:20:12.560
more than your fair share of those, Like what do
1704
01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:13.479
you think is going on there?
1705
01:20:13.840 --> 01:20:18.399
It was the opposite of walking around adrenalized. People oftentimes
1706
01:20:18.439 --> 01:20:19.760
have asked me, you know, what does it feel like
1707
01:20:19.760 --> 01:20:21.640
to be an adrenaline junkie, and I'd say, I don't know.
1708
01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:24.279
I don't feel like I am one. I might participate
1709
01:20:24.319 --> 01:20:26.279
in some things that from the outside would be viewed
1710
01:20:26.279 --> 01:20:30.159
as people seeking adrenaline, but I don't. I don't like
1711
01:20:30.279 --> 01:20:35.960
that hyper adrenalized feeling where you know well, and it
1712
01:20:35.960 --> 01:20:39.159
could be different for anybody and everybody, whether it's the
1713
01:20:39.560 --> 01:20:42.359
tasting copper in your mouth, or the heart rate or
1714
01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:45.199
the you know, feeling your hair. I don't. I don't
1715
01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:47.600
like that sensation. And that's not what I felt on
1716
01:20:47.640 --> 01:20:50.960
the edge, just was scared shitless. Quite frankly, it's not
1717
01:20:51.119 --> 01:20:53.439
an adrenaline and it would be the opposite of walking
1718
01:20:53.439 --> 01:20:57.159
around feeling like that. I would describe it as feeling
1719
01:20:58.079 --> 01:21:01.119
settled or anchored in the.
1720
01:21:01.079 --> 01:21:02.279
Ability to just.
1721
01:21:05.640 --> 01:21:09.439
Sit into it and think clear. It's like having a
1722
01:21:09.520 --> 01:21:14.079
stereo dial and the static and you're just twisting it
1723
01:21:14.159 --> 01:21:16.359
down and then the bs of life cut and it
1724
01:21:16.399 --> 01:21:17.880
comes back up, and it comes back up, and it
1725
01:21:17.880 --> 01:21:19.760
comes back up. Then you go on another one of
1726
01:21:19.760 --> 01:21:21.520
those trips, or I who should say I would go
1727
01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:23.359
on another one of those trips, and it would dial
1728
01:21:23.399 --> 01:21:27.880
it down after a gunfight. It's not like the movies.
1729
01:21:28.000 --> 01:21:30.119
Most of the time it is so fast. It is
1730
01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:31.880
such a rote decision.
1731
01:21:32.039 --> 01:21:35.640
But it's high adrenaline presumably moderate.
1732
01:21:36.960 --> 01:21:38.600
I think it would depend on how much time you
1733
01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:42.159
had to make a call. I mean most of it
1734
01:21:42.239 --> 01:21:46.720
is or in many times a broad example, come around
1735
01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:49.800
a corner, binary threat or not threat. There's not a
1736
01:21:49.840 --> 01:21:52.000
whole lot of time to get ramped. I mean, you
1737
01:21:52.039 --> 01:21:53.920
got to make a decision right there. I think maybe
1738
01:21:53.960 --> 01:21:57.479
afterwards you might get an adrenaline dump or it might
1739
01:21:57.520 --> 01:22:01.439
catch up with you. And I don't I can't really
1740
01:22:01.479 --> 01:22:04.119
think of any anytime I've thought about an adrenaline dump
1741
01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:06.199
or I've seen it. It's people actually kind of melt
1742
01:22:06.319 --> 01:22:07.960
a little bit the far side of that where they're
1743
01:22:08.039 --> 01:22:11.399
just their performance dgrades. For sure, they're on the other
1744
01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:13.880
side of the bell curve or performance. I didn't see
1745
01:22:13.920 --> 01:22:17.000
anybody experiencing that, or maybe they were doing that when
1746
01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:19.119
we were on a helicopter or vehicle on the way out.
1747
01:22:19.479 --> 01:22:22.840
Not that much adrenaline. And again, it it's just not
1748
01:22:22.920 --> 01:22:25.680
as much time as movies and TV shows make it out.
1749
01:22:25.720 --> 01:22:28.760
It's just not that it's not that sexy when you
1750
01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:29.279
got back.
1751
01:22:29.560 --> 01:22:33.720
I would say for myself, you know, if the if
1752
01:22:33.720 --> 01:22:35.720
the optic of time starts coming in at about the
1753
01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:38.600
one minute out, I would say, as you were to
1754
01:22:38.640 --> 01:22:42.199
get back, and I would say for most guys, it's
1755
01:22:42.239 --> 01:22:46.000
more of a routine, but taking your off a certain way,
1756
01:22:46.239 --> 01:22:49.800
hang it up, uniform off, shower, food. I think you
1757
01:22:49.880 --> 01:22:52.399
find that settling spot once the guys come back together
1758
01:22:52.439 --> 01:22:54.479
generally communally over a meal or back in your hut,
1759
01:22:54.520 --> 01:22:57.079
whatever your team. You know we would usually have separated
1760
01:22:57.079 --> 01:22:58.880
by a team. I think you would find your way
1761
01:22:58.880 --> 01:23:01.520
to that settled space as well too, so similar.
1762
01:23:02.039 --> 01:23:03.880
I don't know if it was as powerful, though. Let
1763
01:23:03.920 --> 01:23:07.119
me ask it slightly differently. Coming back from a wingsuit
1764
01:23:07.239 --> 01:23:11.199
jump and it went well. Everybody lived, including you. Maybe
1765
01:23:11.279 --> 01:23:14.279
learned a few things, maybe some errors you were able
1766
01:23:14.319 --> 01:23:16.439
to correct, which is also learning. But you feel good
1767
01:23:16.439 --> 01:23:18.079
about it. How do you sleep that night?
1768
01:23:18.399 --> 01:23:25.119
Oh so good? Yeah? Yeah, probably better sleep. Let me
1769
01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:27.880
see you trying to think about sleep? God, you I
1770
01:23:27.920 --> 01:23:32.880
mean you're going out so repetitively. Yeah, I mean, guys,
1771
01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:37.439
are is it? Well? It was an unhealthy reliance upon ambient?
1772
01:23:37.560 --> 01:23:41.159
Is that sleep or hallucinating? I mean, ambient can induce
1773
01:23:41.960 --> 01:23:45.079
some amnesia, but you know it has its place, but
1774
01:23:45.239 --> 01:23:47.239
it's not it's not the first line of attack, you know.
1775
01:23:47.479 --> 01:23:50.279
I know Seal Team guys liked AMBI, and I think
1776
01:23:50.279 --> 01:23:53.039
nowadays they're using things less. It's what they had of it.
1777
01:23:53.199 --> 01:23:56.159
Yeah, yeah, and I mean unrestricted in a bowl, take
1778
01:23:56.199 --> 01:23:59.279
what you want. I know people who would take two,
1779
01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:04.520
unpackage another two, put them next to their bed with
1780
01:24:04.560 --> 01:24:06.199
a little cup of water for the middle of the
1781
01:24:06.319 --> 01:24:09.319
night when they woke up. I don't think for as healthy.
1782
01:24:09.319 --> 01:24:11.640
I'm not a doctor, but I don't think for as healthy.
1783
01:24:11.680 --> 01:24:14.279
There are better ways. But when you're out with your
1784
01:24:14.319 --> 01:24:16.560
wingsuit buddies and you guys had a great jump that
1785
01:24:16.640 --> 01:24:19.039
day and you're going back, everyone knocks out. You're wiped.
1786
01:24:19.359 --> 01:24:21.840
You're just wiped. And so for that next six months
1787
01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:23.720
you're feeling like you're you're in a really good space.
1788
01:24:24.119 --> 01:24:27.079
You would feel it changing like the three month mark,
1789
01:24:27.119 --> 01:24:30.000
but for a nice three months for me, it was clean.
1790
01:24:30.079 --> 01:24:32.720
You could just think better. And I don't know the
1791
01:24:32.800 --> 01:24:36.560
mechanism behind it, other than maybe your brain gets better
1792
01:24:36.600 --> 01:24:39.840
at parsing out the bullshit that doesn't actually matter. And
1793
01:24:39.920 --> 01:24:42.720
as you get that focus, so once it identifies it
1794
01:24:42.760 --> 01:24:44.199
in that moment, you hold on to it.
1795
01:24:44.279 --> 01:24:44.479
Less.
1796
01:24:44.479 --> 01:24:45.680
I don't know what's going on there.
1797
01:24:45.680 --> 01:24:47.520
It's still a mystery, you know. I've spent some time
1798
01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:50.800
looking at this in advance of this conversation. Yeah, the
1799
01:24:50.920 --> 01:24:54.399
simple theory would be it raises your stress threshold, so
1800
01:24:54.439 --> 01:24:57.000
the things that get you to secrete adrenaline, like everyday
1801
01:24:57.000 --> 01:25:00.359
trivial things, that's not happening anymore. Okay, that's a reasonable theory.
1802
01:25:00.399 --> 01:25:02.520
That's actually what the ice bath will do, that's what
1803
01:25:02.560 --> 01:25:04.840
a morning workout will do. It turns out that's not
1804
01:25:04.880 --> 01:25:07.520
what happens when people go into these flow states and
1805
01:25:07.560 --> 01:25:12.000
you get this long tail of flow opportunities, because the
1806
01:25:12.079 --> 01:25:15.800
tendency when people's stress threshold goes up too high is
1807
01:25:15.840 --> 01:25:19.119
that they tend to engage in a lot of meaningless
1808
01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:22.399
behaviors because they're not stressful enough. You want the sensation
1809
01:25:22.520 --> 01:25:25.520
of like that was a tough conversation and I've got
1810
01:25:25.560 --> 01:25:26.920
to deal with it, or that was a tough conversation.
1811
01:25:26.920 --> 01:25:28.920
I just need to avoid this person, right, Like, this
1812
01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:31.319
is just not a healthy You know, stress is a
1813
01:25:31.319 --> 01:25:35.039
good indicator of pain, and sometimes it's a psychological pain
1814
01:25:35.039 --> 01:25:37.439
that we need to overcome ourselves. Sometimes it's a psychological
1815
01:25:37.439 --> 01:25:39.920
pain we need to excize from our lives. So it
1816
01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:42.079
sounds very different than that. And the reason I'm so
1817
01:25:42.159 --> 01:25:45.560
interested in this is it's the exact same way that
1818
01:25:45.880 --> 01:25:47.560
seems to come up a lot on this podcast that,
1819
01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:52.039
like Rick Rubin has described after putting together an album
1820
01:25:52.479 --> 01:25:55.960
with some amazing artists, where they've just been working and
1821
01:25:56.079 --> 01:26:01.399
working and working. It's not just the time while doing
1822
01:26:01.399 --> 01:26:03.960
the work, it's in the months that follow. It's like
1823
01:26:04.000 --> 01:26:07.600
this piece, it's the post flow state. Something we don't
1824
01:26:07.600 --> 01:26:08.239
have a name for this.
1825
01:26:08.520 --> 01:26:12.880
It's almost like it lowers your stress threshold. Because I
1826
01:26:12.920 --> 01:26:15.760
agree with you, if it just raised your stress threshold,
1827
01:26:16.560 --> 01:26:19.560
I would have just continued to do riskier and risk
1828
01:26:19.560 --> 01:26:22.119
of your behaviors. But at the end, I feel like
1829
01:26:22.199 --> 01:26:25.479
it lowers it and just strips away the BS stress
1830
01:26:26.119 --> 01:26:28.640
and makes you less likely to invest in those other
1831
01:26:28.720 --> 01:26:31.520
potentially nonsense, high risk behaviors.
1832
01:26:31.600 --> 01:26:34.159
I have no ability to describe it whatsoever.
1833
01:26:34.239 --> 01:26:37.279
And again I didn't realize what that headspace was giving
1834
01:26:37.319 --> 01:26:39.760
me while I was in the military. I knew something
1835
01:26:39.840 --> 01:26:41.439
was missing after I had gotten out, and I think
1836
01:26:41.439 --> 01:26:43.760
a lot of guys find themselves in that kind of
1837
01:26:43.800 --> 01:26:47.039
abyss of how do I replicate this spoiler alert you
1838
01:26:47.119 --> 01:26:49.119
can't really and they have to deal with that and
1839
01:26:49.159 --> 01:26:52.840
work their way through that. And I'm not recommending that wingsuit,
1840
01:26:52.840 --> 01:26:55.640
skydiving or base jumping is the path for guys getting out.
1841
01:26:55.640 --> 01:26:57.159
And I specifically wrote about this.
1842
01:26:57.720 --> 01:27:00.520
I've seen people who can do this in art getting
1843
01:27:00.600 --> 01:27:03.800
lost in creating something, or yoga or meditation or ice
1844
01:27:03.840 --> 01:27:06.640
bath or sauna or I found a lot of it
1845
01:27:06.760 --> 01:27:08.800
in the ability to detach and be in the moment
1846
01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:12.720
in jiu jitsu, even though it's totally artificial violence. You're
1847
01:27:12.920 --> 01:27:15.079
in the moment because it sucks when your friend chokes you,
1848
01:27:15.119 --> 01:27:18.359
because you want to choke your friend, obviously. But you
1849
01:27:18.359 --> 01:27:22.199
can find it. It doesn't have to be prescriptive. But
1850
01:27:22.279 --> 01:27:24.359
if you can find your way there, I don't care
1851
01:27:24.439 --> 01:27:26.359
that nobody can describe what it is. I am here
1852
01:27:26.399 --> 01:27:28.920
to tell you it will change your life if you
1853
01:27:28.960 --> 01:27:31.720
can find your way into that space. It really will.
1854
01:27:32.479 --> 01:27:35.640
There's a wonderful book in addition to yours that turns
1855
01:27:35.640 --> 01:27:38.560
out there's another great book out there, how dare's no
1856
01:27:38.680 --> 01:27:41.000
audio version, but it's called The Secret Pulse of Time,
1857
01:27:41.239 --> 01:27:44.880
and it's about time perception. And so the idea that
1858
01:27:44.960 --> 01:27:47.199
comes to mind that maybe we could talk about is
1859
01:27:47.600 --> 01:27:52.359
perhaps these endeavors, whether it's wingsuiting or producing an album,
1860
01:27:52.439 --> 01:27:54.920
or painting or gardening or whatever it is jiu jitsu,
1861
01:27:55.000 --> 01:27:57.439
whatever it is that somebody does to access this flow
1862
01:27:57.439 --> 01:28:01.439
state and gets this long tail of host flow benefit
1863
01:28:01.520 --> 01:28:04.560
whatever whatever that is, we don't have a name for it. Again,
1864
01:28:04.600 --> 01:28:07.479
it seems to calibrate our time perception is one idea
1865
01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:11.119
that perhaps brings us so much into each moment that
1866
01:28:11.119 --> 01:28:13.600
it's almost like our ability to capture moments. It becomes
1867
01:28:13.640 --> 01:28:17.039
high fidelity. Again, you talked about getting the static out right,
1868
01:28:17.119 --> 01:28:18.960
and then when we go back into everyday life, it's
1869
01:28:18.960 --> 01:28:21.920
almost like we're perfectly calibrated. I'm stating a theory here.
1870
01:28:22.239 --> 01:28:24.239
So now you wake up the next morning your home
1871
01:28:24.239 --> 01:28:26.319
and your kid comes in and they're talking about something,
1872
01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:28.520
and you're thinking, and we'll get back to toilet paper
1873
01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:30.239
in a little bit, and you'll be like, listen, dude,
1874
01:28:30.239 --> 01:28:31.760
you're talking about this, but you didn't take care of
1875
01:28:31.800 --> 01:28:33.520
the toilet. But this will become relevant in a moment.
1876
01:28:33.560 --> 01:28:35.640
If you read Andy's I've never thought so much about
1877
01:28:35.640 --> 01:28:38.680
toilet paper rolls in the bathroom and how they're stacked.
1878
01:28:38.720 --> 01:28:40.560
My girlfriend I had a conversation about it the other
1879
01:28:40.640 --> 01:28:42.920
day because of Andy's But that will all make sense
1880
01:28:42.960 --> 01:28:44.840
in a few moments. But it's almost like you can
1881
01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:49.000
still be in that real world stuff, but your time
1882
01:28:49.039 --> 01:28:51.960
perception is adjusted so that you know what you're doing.
1883
01:28:52.039 --> 01:28:54.000
It's just that thing. So then when you pivot to
1884
01:28:54.039 --> 01:28:55.279
the next thing you need to sit down and do
1885
01:28:55.319 --> 01:28:59.359
some work. It's almost like you can adjust your frame
1886
01:28:59.439 --> 01:29:00.680
rate appropriately.
1887
01:29:00.760 --> 01:29:03.720
It's like it pulls you into that. It allows you
1888
01:29:03.800 --> 01:29:11.239
to zync into those things and digest better, to think better. That. Yeah,
1889
01:29:11.279 --> 01:29:14.359
the clarity of thought was just and it would change
1890
01:29:14.359 --> 01:29:18.079
how I thought about an argument or a conversation, and
1891
01:29:18.079 --> 01:29:19.479
it would allow me to look at it from a
1892
01:29:19.479 --> 01:29:20.319
different perspective.
1893
01:29:20.359 --> 01:29:20.439
It.
1894
01:29:20.520 --> 01:29:23.279
I have no idea why that was the case, but
1895
01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:25.239
I agree with what you're saying. I think there might
1896
01:29:25.279 --> 01:29:28.680
be some aspect of that, the fidelity and the ability
1897
01:29:28.720 --> 01:29:32.000
to truly see clearly in that moment, pulling you and
1898
01:29:32.039 --> 01:29:34.720
anchoring you into that there's something there. I don't know.
1899
01:29:35.479 --> 01:29:39.079
A really cool paper came out just the other day
1900
01:29:39.239 --> 01:29:45.039
showing that when we're stressed prior memories, while we can
1901
01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:48.920
still access them, we can't make insightful connections between things
1902
01:29:49.159 --> 01:29:50.840
and I want to describe the whole experiment was really cool.
1903
01:29:50.840 --> 01:29:54.680
They basically have people remember pairs of objects, and then
1904
01:29:54.680 --> 01:29:56.479
there's some link between the two pairs, so like it
1905
01:29:56.479 --> 01:30:00.760
will be like apple yeerbamt and there'll be yeerbamte wingsuit,
1906
01:30:00.800 --> 01:30:02.399
and then at some point later you need to link
1907
01:30:02.600 --> 01:30:04.560
you know, the wingsuit to the apple, right, you know
1908
01:30:04.760 --> 01:30:07.960
it conceptually, not just that way. They built up from
1909
01:30:08.079 --> 01:30:10.560
basic things like I just described, And as you ramp
1910
01:30:10.640 --> 01:30:14.399
up people's levels of stress, you essentially lose the ability
1911
01:30:14.439 --> 01:30:17.159
to make these connected insights. And this speaks to the
1912
01:30:17.840 --> 01:30:20.920
hardwiring and the software that the brain uses. Almost wonder
1913
01:30:21.199 --> 01:30:23.000
whether or not your stress threshold, as you said, is
1914
01:30:23.000 --> 01:30:25.600
brought down so that you can now have novel insights
1915
01:30:25.640 --> 01:30:27.560
like oh, this conversation with my son about the toilet
1916
01:30:27.560 --> 01:30:30.359
paper is actually important in a way that isn't just
1917
01:30:30.399 --> 01:30:33.840
me being annoyed. And I feel like maybe maybe the
1918
01:30:33.920 --> 01:30:36.359
fun to explore this as the science evolves with you,
1919
01:30:36.159 --> 01:30:37.920
you know, and talk about it more, because I think
1920
01:30:38.319 --> 01:30:40.880
the reason I'm so obsessed with this is for two reasons.
1921
01:30:41.479 --> 01:30:46.640
One is navigating everyday life, which is a lot that's
1922
01:30:46.680 --> 01:30:49.199
a lot of what people are challenged with it's so vital.
1923
01:30:49.560 --> 01:30:53.920
The other is how to navigate the hard stuff in life.
1924
01:30:54.319 --> 01:30:56.239
So I want to get to both of those things
1925
01:30:56.239 --> 01:30:58.159
and talk about some examples from your life and from
1926
01:30:58.159 --> 01:30:59.520
your book. But before we do that, I feel like
1927
01:30:59.520 --> 01:31:01.359
we're a gave to talk about toilet paper.
1928
01:31:02.359 --> 01:31:06.439
The number of pictures I have received via email of
1929
01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:11.520
people taking pictures of their kids bathrooms and basically saying
1930
01:31:11.920 --> 01:31:14.600
I thought I was the only one.
1931
01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:18.680
All right, this's really seemed like an inside joke. Now
1932
01:31:18.720 --> 01:31:20.399
for those that ready, and he's what you got. All right,
1933
01:31:20.439 --> 01:31:23.159
we will get back to time perception, navigating the every
1934
01:31:23.239 --> 01:31:24.960
day and the hard things in life. I won't forget.
1935
01:31:25.039 --> 01:31:27.439
We'll spin that plate in the background. Yeah it's spinning
1936
01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:30.960
the toilet paper section. Yes, it made me laugh. It
1937
01:31:31.000 --> 01:31:33.680
also made me think about the little things I do
1938
01:31:33.760 --> 01:31:38.479
each day and the little tiny ebbt shortcuts that I'm taking,
1939
01:31:38.520 --> 01:31:41.640
and how those ratchet up. So tell us about toilet paper.
1940
01:31:41.680 --> 01:31:43.760
It always takes longer to do it wrong, is the
1941
01:31:43.760 --> 01:31:46.239
bottom line. And we all are tempted with these shortcuts.
1942
01:31:46.239 --> 01:31:49.000
So that's the mantro. We have to remember my children
1943
01:31:49.359 --> 01:31:50.079
their bathroom.
1944
01:31:50.920 --> 01:31:52.560
If there was going to be in a Bola outbreak
1945
01:31:52.600 --> 01:31:53.119
in the US.
1946
01:31:53.159 --> 01:31:53.880
It might start there.
1947
01:31:53.880 --> 01:31:55.479
I don't know anything about a bowla but I feel
1948
01:31:55.520 --> 01:31:59.479
like it might start there. So as with both bathrooms,
1949
01:31:59.520 --> 01:32:04.800
there's toilet paper rolls, and my kids when they finish
1950
01:32:04.800 --> 01:32:06.520
a toilet paper roll, instead.
1951
01:32:06.239 --> 01:32:09.159
Of popping it off the holder.
1952
01:32:09.520 --> 01:32:12.119
Taking it and going and getting a new one, they
1953
01:32:12.159 --> 01:32:15.159
go get a new one and they sit it right there,
1954
01:32:15.279 --> 01:32:21.680
so it's like empty toilet paper roll up against the wall.
1955
01:32:21.840 --> 01:32:25.600
You would think that when this one is done, they
1956
01:32:25.600 --> 01:32:30.239
would take them both, but instead they do this, so
1957
01:32:30.279 --> 01:32:32.399
there's two against the wall, and then the other role
1958
01:32:32.479 --> 01:32:35.720
goes here. Now I can't use this one because this
1959
01:32:35.800 --> 01:32:39.039
is open. But when this role is done, you would
1960
01:32:39.079 --> 01:32:43.520
think that they wouldn't create a pyramid, which historically, from
1961
01:32:43.520 --> 01:32:46.159
my understanding of math, isn't great to balance things on.
1962
01:32:46.239 --> 01:32:48.800
But they will make a pyramid and then put this
1963
01:32:48.920 --> 01:32:51.800
up here, and inevitably this role goes forward, hits the
1964
01:32:51.840 --> 01:32:54.399
ground behind the toilet, and then they start screaming from
1965
01:32:54.399 --> 01:32:57.399
the bathroom, I need toilet paper, dad, to which I respond,
1966
01:32:57.840 --> 01:33:00.239
you got yourself there. You can figure it out on
1967
01:33:00.279 --> 01:33:00.600
your own.
1968
01:33:01.439 --> 01:33:05.520
This is all of your kids, yeah for sure? Okay, Yeah,
1969
01:33:05.560 --> 01:33:09.000
And they're all your kids. Yeah, all right, I'm not
1970
01:33:09.039 --> 01:33:09.840
really saying anything.
1971
01:33:11.399 --> 01:33:14.039
And so the point in all of this is if
1972
01:33:14.079 --> 01:33:16.520
you don't want to be somebody screaming for a toilet
1973
01:33:16.520 --> 01:33:20.960
paper roll, it actually takes less time to go. And
1974
01:33:21.239 --> 01:33:24.560
when you're out of toilet paper, disconnect it, throw it
1975
01:33:24.600 --> 01:33:27.159
away on the way, and bring another one in. It's
1976
01:33:27.159 --> 01:33:30.640
the same thing as laundry. Do you laundry. I'm not
1977
01:33:30.680 --> 01:33:34.199
perfect to this by any stretch, but do your laundry,
1978
01:33:34.199 --> 01:33:36.920
fold your laundry, put it away. That always takes less
1979
01:33:36.920 --> 01:33:39.560
time than do your laundry in a pile. Then you're
1980
01:33:39.560 --> 01:33:41.560
in a pinch and you're looking for your T shirt,
1981
01:33:41.720 --> 01:33:42.920
whatever shirt you want to wear.
1982
01:33:43.000 --> 01:33:44.439
And I own a lot of black clothing.
1983
01:33:44.520 --> 01:33:47.319
Oh I do too. It's all blues, blacks, and an
1984
01:33:47.319 --> 01:33:49.319
occasional rat. The red ones are easy to find in
1985
01:33:49.359 --> 01:33:52.039
that particular cohort. But otherwise you're in there toil and
1986
01:33:52.079 --> 01:33:54.199
it's inside out, so you don't know if it's got
1987
01:33:54.199 --> 01:33:56.479
the right logo. There's socks coming out of the sleeves.
1988
01:33:57.199 --> 01:33:59.680
Five extent amount of time that would take you, as
1989
01:33:59.680 --> 01:34:01.760
a post to just wash your laundry.
1990
01:34:01.479 --> 01:34:04.199
Try it, fold it, put it away.
1991
01:34:04.319 --> 01:34:07.239
I have tried to express this message to my children
1992
01:34:07.359 --> 01:34:10.640
to the limits of my vocabulary. I went into my
1993
01:34:10.760 --> 01:34:13.159
daughter's bathroom before we came up here.
1994
01:34:14.239 --> 01:34:15.800
There was three rolls of toilet paper.
1995
01:34:16.079 --> 01:34:17.920
Two of them were empty and wedged on the side,
1996
01:34:17.960 --> 01:34:19.920
and the third one was vertical. And I just closed
1997
01:34:19.920 --> 01:34:21.680
the door and walked away, pretend like it didn't happen.
1998
01:34:22.600 --> 01:34:26.439
They don't listen to me. It always takes longer to
1999
01:34:26.479 --> 01:34:28.000
do it wrong. And those are the.
2000
01:34:28.000 --> 01:34:29.359
Little shortcuts that we all take.
2001
01:34:29.640 --> 01:34:33.199
We tell ourselves I'll do it later, or I don't
2002
01:34:33.199 --> 01:34:34.920
have time to do it right now. We all have
2003
01:34:34.960 --> 01:34:37.239
the same amount of time. It's where you're allocating your time.
2004
01:34:37.880 --> 01:34:40.880
Do it up front, and I assure you the mc
2005
01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:44.359
craven speech about making your bed, the number of parents
2006
01:34:44.439 --> 01:34:48.720
that probably thought that was life changing was just amazing, Like, yes,
2007
01:34:48.760 --> 01:34:50.520
somebody else is telling my kid to make the bed.
2008
01:34:50.800 --> 01:34:53.199
It's not actually about that. It's about having the discipline
2009
01:34:53.239 --> 01:34:55.640
to do the little things. And it is way better
2010
01:34:55.680 --> 01:34:57.600
at the end of the night when you're tired to
2011
01:34:57.600 --> 01:34:59.279
come back to a bed that is made and ready
2012
01:34:59.279 --> 01:35:01.399
for you to hop into that having to and not
2013
01:35:01.439 --> 01:35:02.920
most people would do this, but make it first and
2014
01:35:02.960 --> 01:35:04.479
then get into it, but it just gets worse and
2015
01:35:04.520 --> 01:35:06.359
worse and worse, and in the end it will take
2016
01:35:06.399 --> 01:35:09.079
you longer to correct for that than the individual action
2017
01:35:09.119 --> 01:35:10.640
of just doing it right the first time.
2018
01:35:10.960 --> 01:35:13.239
What's your advice with respect to this?
2019
01:35:17.000 --> 01:35:18.800
I mean, I can give you the advice, but I
2020
01:35:18.880 --> 01:35:22.039
also don't follow it all the time either. Every single
2021
01:35:22.079 --> 01:35:24.079
decision that you have in front of you in your
2022
01:35:24.079 --> 01:35:26.800
life will have a slightly easier and a slightly harder choice.
2023
01:35:27.119 --> 01:35:29.359
Make a slightly harder one more often than the slightly
2024
01:35:29.399 --> 01:35:32.039
easier one. And the thing I liked a lot about
2025
01:35:32.119 --> 01:35:35.920
mccraven's messaging around the bed is that it started your
2026
01:35:36.000 --> 01:35:38.399
day with at a small act of discipline that could
2027
01:35:38.399 --> 01:35:41.119
seem meaningless. But then what if you pair another small
2028
01:35:41.159 --> 01:35:43.439
one with that, and then another small one with that.
2029
01:35:43.479 --> 01:35:45.760
I think that can really set you up for success
2030
01:35:45.800 --> 01:35:47.960
in your day. And yes, at the end of the day, boom,
2031
01:35:48.000 --> 01:35:49.479
your bed's ready to go and you can hop back
2032
01:35:49.560 --> 01:35:51.359
into it. It just feels better to get into a
2033
01:35:51.359 --> 01:35:51.840
made bed.
2034
01:35:52.880 --> 01:35:55.439
It took me a while to realize that most of
2035
01:35:55.439 --> 01:35:58.960
the people that I could tell were really squared away
2036
01:35:59.159 --> 01:36:01.640
in their jobs because I happen to know their personal
2037
01:36:01.680 --> 01:36:07.520
lives too, also their personal lives. They're pretty tidy people. Yeah,
2038
01:36:07.520 --> 01:36:11.960
whether by sheer will or by reflex, they're just pretty tidy.
2039
01:36:12.039 --> 01:36:14.159
I don't think it's every boy reflex. I think it's
2040
01:36:14.199 --> 01:36:18.840
always always by will and it's not fun. And don't
2041
01:36:18.840 --> 01:36:20.680
get me wrong, I'm not perfect at it. But if
2042
01:36:20.720 --> 01:36:23.000
I can look back at my lives or my life
2043
01:36:23.359 --> 01:36:29.439
at times where things were a little bit less effort
2044
01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:34.199
involved in being successful or making traction, it wasn't in chaos.
2045
01:36:34.720 --> 01:36:36.479
It was in a little bit more of a controlled
2046
01:36:36.560 --> 01:36:39.279
environment by me, again controlling what I can control, which
2047
01:36:39.279 --> 01:36:42.760
is my actions in the morning. You know, if you
2048
01:36:42.800 --> 01:36:44.159
sit down in front of a desk and you can't
2049
01:36:44.159 --> 01:36:45.800
even find the thing that you're looking forward to do
2050
01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:48.640
the work on it. I don't know anybody who has
2051
01:36:48.680 --> 01:36:52.039
become ultra successful in life with that model. But I
2052
01:36:52.039 --> 01:36:53.760
think we could both sit down and talk about some
2053
01:36:53.760 --> 01:36:56.079
people who are nailing it, and I think the vast
2054
01:36:56.079 --> 01:36:59.199
majority of them would fall into that tidy category or
2055
01:36:59.680 --> 01:37:03.119
diss category. But it's micro discipline. They can make it
2056
01:37:03.159 --> 01:37:05.359
seem as if you have this macro discipline, but that's
2057
01:37:05.359 --> 01:37:07.279
not actually what it is. It's the little things that
2058
01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:10.000
nobody sees that's what leads you to that in the state.
2059
01:37:10.760 --> 01:37:13.520
It's interesting. Earlier we were talking about social pressure and
2060
01:37:14.039 --> 01:37:19.640
alcohol and social media. You know, it's interesting to me
2061
01:37:20.439 --> 01:37:23.680
that there seems to be some degree of social pressure
2062
01:37:24.359 --> 01:37:27.359
to not do the slightly harder thing, you know, like
2063
01:37:27.399 --> 01:37:30.319
what we're what we're describing now. I never get into
2064
01:37:30.720 --> 01:37:33.439
thinking about what the comments would be, but I'd be
2065
01:37:33.439 --> 01:37:37.439
willing to bet one pinky that a fair number of
2066
01:37:37.439 --> 01:37:41.960
people are either thinking or commenting directly. Yeah, like that's
2067
01:37:41.960 --> 01:37:43.920
really neurotic, Like loosen up, Yeah.
2068
01:37:43.800 --> 01:37:45.560
Take it plom and send it to me.
2069
01:37:45.640 --> 01:37:49.199
Yeah, that it looks like shit exactly. My dad's first
2070
01:37:49.199 --> 01:37:52.439
generation immigrant from South America, and I'll never forget when
2071
01:37:53.079 --> 01:37:56.439
it was in the mid nineties. He probably took me
2072
01:37:56.479 --> 01:37:58.359
to a movie and an attempt to repair a relationship
2073
01:37:58.359 --> 01:38:00.560
and eventually it worked. Dad, we're doing great. Talked to
2074
01:38:00.640 --> 01:38:02.239
him today. I called him today. We're on such a
2075
01:38:02.239 --> 01:38:03.760
good terms. It feels good to be able to say it.
2076
01:38:04.039 --> 01:38:06.880
And I'll never forget. We were at the movies and
2077
01:38:06.920 --> 01:38:09.560
there were these people walking by and they were wearing
2078
01:38:09.640 --> 01:38:13.000
kind of like baggy sweats and flip flops or something,
2079
01:38:13.039 --> 01:38:15.760
and he stopped me, and he's a very orderly guy,
2080
01:38:15.880 --> 01:38:19.600
and he said, see that, that's the beginning of the end.
2081
01:38:20.359 --> 01:38:22.520
And I said, what do you mean And he said,
2082
01:38:23.399 --> 01:38:26.279
I come from a third world country. When people start
2083
01:38:26.279 --> 01:38:28.960
going into the movies in their pajamas, it's the beginning
2084
01:38:29.000 --> 01:38:30.920
of the end. And I thought, hey, this is like,
2085
01:38:31.600 --> 01:38:34.520
you couldn't be more out he's I actually think he's right.
2086
01:38:34.560 --> 01:38:37.640
What he was talking about is that when the social
2087
01:38:37.680 --> 01:38:41.199
pressure is not sufficient to keep people feeling as if
2088
01:38:41.199 --> 01:38:43.680
they need to show up, as if they're in public. Right,
2089
01:38:44.039 --> 01:38:45.680
And he might have been a bit extreme, but you know,
2090
01:38:45.680 --> 01:38:48.600
when that social pressure isn't there, then the social pressure
2091
01:38:48.600 --> 01:38:51.479
eventually erodes around what people can say, what they can do.
2092
01:38:51.520 --> 01:38:53.680
And then I do think that era of Jerry Springer
2093
01:38:53.800 --> 01:38:57.119
daytime television where people would watch people who were way
2094
01:38:57.159 --> 01:38:59.840
more screwed up than them so they could feel a
2095
01:38:59.840 --> 01:39:00.880
lot lot less screwed up.
2096
01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:04.600
It's called shouten fruit when you take pleasure in other
2097
01:39:04.640 --> 01:39:05.279
people's pain.
2098
01:39:05.600 --> 01:39:08.000
Yeah, well I think that there's that's that's the word
2099
01:39:08.000 --> 01:39:10.800
for it, for sure. But I think this is kind
2100
01:39:10.840 --> 01:39:13.479
of adjacent to that, where it's it's like giving yourself
2101
01:39:13.560 --> 01:39:17.399
license to not feel that bad because like like, either
2102
01:39:17.560 --> 01:39:19.760
they're just so neurotic that I don't want anything to
2103
01:39:19.760 --> 01:39:21.840
do with that kind of world where everything's right angles,
2104
01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:25.319
or like, well, at least I'm not in total squalor.
2105
01:39:25.720 --> 01:39:27.239
And this is where I think that, you know, we
2106
01:39:27.319 --> 01:39:29.399
hear so much about oh, everyone's presenting them best self,
2107
01:39:29.520 --> 01:39:32.279
their best selves on social media. Also a problem to
2108
01:39:32.399 --> 01:39:35.159
seem perfect, because no one's perfect. But I do think
2109
01:39:35.199 --> 01:39:38.399
that there is this drift where we go, well, like,
2110
01:39:39.199 --> 01:39:41.640
it's not going to crush my life, the toilet paper thing,
2111
01:39:41.720 --> 01:39:43.560
like if it were going to cost me my relationship
2112
01:39:43.680 --> 01:39:45.359
or you know, my allowance, you know you gives, might
2113
01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:47.880
think about it differently, right, Yeah, but so I think.
2114
01:39:47.920 --> 01:39:50.239
But what I got from your book, this this section
2115
01:39:50.279 --> 01:39:53.199
of your book, is that it's because the consequences are
2116
01:39:53.239 --> 01:39:58.000
so small at the individual level, but the upside is
2117
01:39:58.000 --> 01:40:02.800
so big. Yes, you know, collect these things together that
2118
01:40:03.199 --> 01:40:05.960
the real incentive to do the slightly harder thing is there.
2119
01:40:06.239 --> 01:40:07.800
I mean, the toilet paper is not going to cost
2120
01:40:07.840 --> 01:40:09.279
your life. If it does, I'm going to need a
2121
01:40:09.279 --> 01:40:11.960
case study on how that happened, because I'm fascinated.
2122
01:40:11.479 --> 01:40:15.079
At this point. But what if it the we'll call
2123
01:40:15.119 --> 01:40:15.640
it what it is.
2124
01:40:15.680 --> 01:40:18.000
Either the lack of discipline or the laziness in the
2125
01:40:18.000 --> 01:40:21.399
moment changes the trajectory of your life because you apply
2126
01:40:21.520 --> 01:40:25.079
that to everything in your life, because that's how you
2127
01:40:25.119 --> 01:40:27.159
start your day and how you end your day. I
2128
01:40:27.199 --> 01:40:30.319
get it, people, and I'll take a picture of my
2129
01:40:30.439 --> 01:40:32.279
room and send it out. Guess what it's not hospital
2130
01:40:32.279 --> 01:40:35.159
corners on the bed and there's probably something in the corner.
2131
01:40:35.199 --> 01:40:38.479
I'm not saying that I'm perfect in this, but it's
2132
01:40:38.520 --> 01:40:42.880
not being neurotic. It's doing the work that nobody sees.
2133
01:40:43.439 --> 01:40:45.439
And for the people who can, you know, say oh
2134
01:40:45.479 --> 01:40:47.720
that's you know, that seems too neurotic for me.
2135
01:40:47.760 --> 01:40:50.039
Like let's let's have a cup of coffee.
2136
01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:51.760
Where do you want to be in your life and
2137
01:40:51.800 --> 01:40:53.880
where are you at in that journey? I would I'm
2138
01:40:53.960 --> 01:40:57.600
fascinated by and that you know grew sand Internet's the best.
2139
01:40:57.640 --> 01:41:02.960
Worst thing people can find this conversation and then critique
2140
01:41:03.000 --> 01:41:05.199
us to death and say that we're being neurotic. But
2141
01:41:05.239 --> 01:41:07.359
I'd also love to connect with somebody and say, listen,
2142
01:41:08.239 --> 01:41:10.680
why do you have your an allergic reaction to that
2143
01:41:10.760 --> 01:41:11.720
particular statement?
2144
01:41:12.119 --> 01:41:15.600
Is it because perhaps you're living it? And if you are.
2145
01:41:15.800 --> 01:41:16.800
Let's talk about.
2146
01:41:16.600 --> 01:41:19.520
The potential impact that it's having, because again I didn't
2147
01:41:19.560 --> 01:41:22.279
create this, I'm passing along. You know, one of the
2148
01:41:22.279 --> 01:41:25.199
mantras and the teams how you do anything is how
2149
01:41:25.239 --> 01:41:30.039
you do everything that there's so many stupid small things
2150
01:41:30.640 --> 01:41:33.760
that you do, specifically in training, that have nothing to
2151
01:41:33.840 --> 01:41:37.119
do with anything except doing the stupid small thing.
2152
01:41:38.199 --> 01:41:38.640
It's it.
2153
01:41:38.880 --> 01:41:42.960
I mean, you know, the two mile swim. You have
2154
01:41:43.000 --> 01:41:44.520
a k bar knife in one of your hands, and
2155
01:41:44.520 --> 01:41:46.479
a CO two cartridge and another and you're wearing your
2156
01:41:46.479 --> 01:41:49.720
life jacket and we're like got a jeweler's loop out
2157
01:41:49.760 --> 01:41:54.520
looking at the you know, the little twist insection of
2158
01:41:54.560 --> 01:41:57.279
the CO two cartries. God help you if I find
2159
01:41:57.279 --> 01:41:58.640
a grain of sand or.
2160
01:41:58.600 --> 01:42:00.680
A fleck of russ, guess what.
2161
01:42:00.920 --> 01:42:03.840
The jacket's still going to function even if both of
2162
01:42:03.880 --> 01:42:06.560
those things still exist, because it actually has nothing to
2163
01:42:06.600 --> 01:42:09.359
do with the neuraling of the CO two cartridge and
2164
01:42:09.479 --> 01:42:12.760
everything to do with I told you to have nothing
2165
01:42:12.800 --> 01:42:15.479
in this to make sure it was basically brand new,
2166
01:42:15.960 --> 01:42:19.079
because you have to follow the procedure, because the procedures
2167
01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:22.039
was going to save your life. Can you even when
2168
01:42:22.079 --> 01:42:24.199
you're exhausted and you don't want to, and you have
2169
01:42:24.279 --> 01:42:26.840
limited time do what I told you to do because
2170
01:42:26.840 --> 01:42:28.760
of the impact that it'll have. I mean that exists
2171
01:42:28.840 --> 01:42:32.640
in that community everywhere. So it's not me. I'm just
2172
01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:36.640
telling you. The most successful people that I have encountered
2173
01:42:37.199 --> 01:42:41.520
are not becoming successful in chaos. Now, of course, there
2174
01:42:41.520 --> 01:42:44.239
will be somebody that can point to something and say, well,
2175
01:42:44.279 --> 01:42:46.119
what about this person. I'm not saying that there's not
2176
01:42:46.199 --> 01:42:47.920
a what do they call it, a white elephant or
2177
01:42:47.960 --> 01:42:51.359
a black oath, whatever it may be. Does that scale? No,
2178
01:42:51.960 --> 01:42:55.399
it doesn't. So if you're trying to replicate that all
2179
01:42:55.439 --> 01:42:56.960
they did it through chaos. So I'm going to as
2180
01:42:56.960 --> 01:42:59.479
well live your life however you want to. But maybe
2181
01:42:59.560 --> 01:43:01.680
you and I are being neurotic. Maybe we're just trying
2182
01:43:01.680 --> 01:43:02.000
to help.
2183
01:43:02.279 --> 01:43:06.039
Yeah, you said, even when exhausted and limited in time,
2184
01:43:06.119 --> 01:43:11.039
those are the two times when these little I guess
2185
01:43:11.079 --> 01:43:13.000
I used to think about them as extras. I'm trying
2186
01:43:13.000 --> 01:43:16.119
to start thinking about them as foundational. That's when they
2187
01:43:16.119 --> 01:43:16.960
become really tough.
2188
01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:20.039
It's when they matter the most though, because if you,
2189
01:43:20.359 --> 01:43:24.960
I mean, it's like this toilet paper always two thousand pounds,
2190
01:43:25.000 --> 01:43:26.359
There's no way I can get it to the garbage
2191
01:43:26.359 --> 01:43:28.199
of this tired That's exactly like the days you don't
2192
01:43:28.239 --> 01:43:30.560
want to work out, those are the most important days.
2193
01:43:30.560 --> 01:43:31.640
Even if you do less.
2194
01:43:31.960 --> 01:43:35.600
The mental victory there, in my mind at least, and
2195
01:43:35.640 --> 01:43:37.439
I'm not an expert in any of this far out
2196
01:43:37.479 --> 01:43:38.960
weighs any of the physical aspect.
2197
01:43:39.000 --> 01:43:41.640
It's the fact that you did and you didn't want to.
2198
01:43:41.920 --> 01:43:44.359
If you stack that up over a lifetime, you're going
2199
01:43:44.399 --> 01:43:47.319
to blow people away with what you can and can accomplish.
2200
01:43:47.960 --> 01:43:52.600
Yeah, the generalizability of what you just described is definitely
2201
01:43:52.600 --> 01:43:55.199
supported by science. People have perhaps heard me say this before,
2202
01:43:55.239 --> 01:43:57.560
so I'll make it very brief. But there's this brain area,
2203
01:43:57.680 --> 01:44:01.880
the anterior mid singulate cortex, which neuroscientists that teach neuanatomy,
2204
01:44:01.880 --> 01:44:04.039
including me, didn't know what it did until a few
2205
01:44:04.079 --> 01:44:07.520
years ago. A guy at Stanford, Joe Parvezi's a neurosurgeon.
2206
01:44:07.560 --> 01:44:10.640
He was stimulating this brain area and regions adjacent to
2207
01:44:10.720 --> 01:44:13.239
it looking for eppelet FOCAI in a patient. That's how
2208
01:44:13.239 --> 01:44:15.399
they find out where the where to burn out the
2209
01:44:15.439 --> 01:44:19.680
seizure site. And he's stimulating in the singulate cortex and
2210
01:44:19.680 --> 01:44:21.600
then he gets to this anteri emitd singlic cortex, and
2211
01:44:21.640 --> 01:44:24.800
in every patient where he taps this region electrically, the
2212
01:44:24.840 --> 01:44:28.880
person feels and reports, I feel like there's a storm
2213
01:44:28.960 --> 01:44:31.920
coming and I want to lean into it. I know
2214
01:44:32.000 --> 01:44:34.279
I can go through it. Someone else might describe it
2215
01:44:34.319 --> 01:44:37.600
as I feel like there's this big thing about to happen,
2216
01:44:38.439 --> 01:44:42.960
but I'm going to persevere. So is amazing, Right, So
2217
01:44:43.079 --> 01:44:49.319
this anteremid singulate cortex turns out hypertrophies. It grows in volume, maybe,
2218
01:44:49.359 --> 01:44:52.239
in number of connections, et cetera, a number of neurons maybe,
2219
01:44:52.239 --> 01:44:55.960
but certainly grows in volume when people successfully die it
2220
01:44:56.720 --> 01:44:59.560
when they take their existing exercise program and just add
2221
01:44:59.600 --> 01:45:03.920
three thres thirty minute sessions of cardio. But here's the caveat.
2222
01:45:04.199 --> 01:45:07.760
If they hate cardio, if you love the ice bath,
2223
01:45:08.800 --> 01:45:12.319
your antiioman singulate cortex, which by the way, predicts successful dieting,
2224
01:45:12.399 --> 01:45:16.640
predicts successful completion of any of other hard things. All
2225
01:45:16.680 --> 01:45:18.720
of that relates to whether or not the thing that
2226
01:45:18.760 --> 01:45:22.520
you're introducing is something that you do not want to
2227
01:45:22.520 --> 01:45:24.640
do in the moment that you do it. And so
2228
01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:26.720
there's real science to this. Now, there's a long review
2229
01:45:26.760 --> 01:45:28.000
that I can put a link to the in the
2230
01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:29.640
caption if people want to get into the science. So
2231
01:45:29.720 --> 01:45:32.000
this is in human studies, and it goes just on
2232
01:45:32.119 --> 01:45:35.479
and on. So it's not the thing, it's the thing
2233
01:45:35.560 --> 01:45:37.880
you don't want to do. And so when people say
2234
01:45:37.880 --> 01:45:39.880
I love working out in the final two reps of
2235
01:45:39.920 --> 01:45:42.119
that set that teaches me how to be hard in life,
2236
01:45:42.199 --> 01:45:44.079
You're like, do you like working out? They're like, love it,
2237
01:45:44.119 --> 01:45:46.760
and you're like, it's not doing anything for your internsingulate cortex.
2238
01:45:47.000 --> 01:45:48.760
So I think this is very important science, which is
2239
01:45:48.760 --> 01:45:51.039
why I keep bringing up on multiple podcasts, and I
2240
01:45:51.039 --> 01:45:53.000
think the toilet paper roll. So your kids have this
2241
01:45:53.079 --> 01:45:57.840
amazing opportunity. Other people have to, I don't know, do whatever.
2242
01:45:58.640 --> 01:46:01.359
You know, they seem like very hard driving kids and
2243
01:46:01.720 --> 01:46:03.880
the way you describe them anyway, So it turns out
2244
01:46:03.920 --> 01:46:08.720
that for them, the toilet paper thing and know your
2245
01:46:08.800 --> 01:46:10.520
dad didn't pay me to say this, the toilet paper
2246
01:46:10.520 --> 01:46:13.960
thing turns out to be the route to anterior amid
2247
01:46:14.039 --> 01:46:18.399
singulate cortex growth, which then translates to by the way,
2248
01:46:19.159 --> 01:46:22.479
growth of this structure is the defining feature of what
2249
01:46:22.520 --> 01:46:24.960
are called superagers, a bit of a misnomer because these
2250
01:46:24.960 --> 01:46:27.760
are people who maintain cognitive ability and many of their
2251
01:46:27.760 --> 01:46:31.159
physical abilities relative to their peers into their eighties and nineties.
2252
01:46:31.279 --> 01:46:31.920
That makes sense.
2253
01:46:32.600 --> 01:46:35.119
So it may even be related to the will to live.
2254
01:46:35.680 --> 01:46:38.640
It may be the tenacity structure in the brain which
2255
01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:43.279
people who successfully push back against certain like confrontations and
2256
01:46:43.279 --> 01:46:45.600
things and on and on. So it's pretty cool structure.
2257
01:46:45.640 --> 01:46:48.319
And it may be the basis of the toilet paper phenomenon.
2258
01:46:48.880 --> 01:46:51.600
Same thing as putting your dishes in the dishwasher when
2259
01:46:51.600 --> 01:46:53.640
you're done, as opposed to just dropping them in the
2260
01:46:53.640 --> 01:46:56.960
sink for the next morning. The examples are everywhere, not
2261
01:46:57.039 --> 01:46:58.319
that would ever happen in our house.
2262
01:46:58.359 --> 01:47:02.720
But we're going to get back to the time perception piece.
2263
01:47:02.760 --> 01:47:06.079
But you've mentioned jiu jitsu a few times. Yeah, what's
2264
01:47:06.119 --> 01:47:10.319
an aspect of jiu jitsu that for you? Is this thing,
2265
01:47:10.479 --> 01:47:12.600
this friction point where you actually don't want to do
2266
01:47:12.720 --> 01:47:13.800
or do you just love the whole thing?
2267
01:47:13.960 --> 01:47:15.920
What I love about jiu jitsu is it can't be mastered.
2268
01:47:16.079 --> 01:47:18.840
There's no way. I've been very fortunate enough now to
2269
01:47:18.880 --> 01:47:21.159
train with people or be around them that have been
2270
01:47:21.199 --> 01:47:23.319
black Belts for damn near as long as I have
2271
01:47:23.399 --> 01:47:25.760
been alive, and I love asking them.
2272
01:47:25.840 --> 01:47:27.000
We know what do they like about it?
2273
01:47:27.000 --> 01:47:30.720
And it's these seasons and phases where they think they
2274
01:47:30.760 --> 01:47:32.800
have it figured out and then they see something else
2275
01:47:33.039 --> 01:47:36.920
and their realization is they haven't even begun to understand
2276
01:47:36.960 --> 01:47:39.399
and this. So they build back up and something again,
2277
01:47:39.520 --> 01:47:43.359
and they the more experience these people have, the less
2278
01:47:43.399 --> 01:47:45.920
they think it that they have it all figured out.
2279
01:47:45.960 --> 01:47:48.439
And I don't know what the key to aging is,
2280
01:47:48.960 --> 01:47:51.960
but I love doing things that seem as if it
2281
01:47:52.039 --> 01:47:55.199
is impossible to master them. I think that's the key
2282
01:47:55.239 --> 01:47:58.479
to staying at least mentally as young as possible, constantly
2283
01:47:58.640 --> 01:47:59.479
learning new stuff.
2284
01:48:00.279 --> 01:48:02.159
I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge
2285
01:48:02.199 --> 01:48:05.760
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2286
01:48:05.840 --> 01:48:08.760
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2287
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2288
01:48:12.560 --> 01:48:15.840
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2289
01:48:15.840 --> 01:48:17.960
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2290
01:48:18.000 --> 01:48:21.600
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2293
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2294
01:48:33.680 --> 01:48:37.960
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2295
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2298
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2299
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2300
01:48:54.199 --> 01:48:57.800
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2301
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2302
01:49:00.359 --> 01:49:02.520
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2303
01:49:02.920 --> 01:49:05.239
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2304
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spelled joovv dot com slash Huberman Again, that's joovv dot
2308
01:49:19.920 --> 01:49:23.479
com slash Huberman. I seem to re referencing your book
2309
01:49:23.479 --> 01:49:24.880
a lot, but there's a great story in your book
2310
01:49:24.880 --> 01:49:29.159
about some intestinal distress that that is not uh we're
2311
01:49:29.159 --> 01:49:31.359
calling it, yeah, that is not of the just the
2312
01:49:31.600 --> 01:49:34.840
the diarrhea constipation type, but like you described it as
2313
01:49:34.920 --> 01:49:39.359
the worst pain you'd ever experienced, which when most people
2314
01:49:39.399 --> 01:49:41.159
hear a statement like that, they go, Okay, well, what
2315
01:49:41.239 --> 01:49:43.479
pain have you experienced? Well, so it turns out you
2316
01:49:43.520 --> 01:49:48.880
also been shot. Turns out your you know, your your
2317
01:49:48.960 --> 01:49:52.159
job selection process involved a fair amount of media and
2318
01:49:52.199 --> 01:49:55.760
long term pain processes under you know, limited sleep and
2319
01:49:55.800 --> 01:49:58.359
so on. So we can check the box easily for you,
2320
01:49:58.439 --> 01:50:01.279
like understands pain and and then this was the worst pain.
2321
01:50:01.800 --> 01:50:03.680
What do you think about this notion? Maybe I heard
2322
01:50:03.680 --> 01:50:07.159
this from Chad Wright that when you vocalize about how
2323
01:50:07.159 --> 01:50:11.199
hard something is, that you make it more real. I
2324
01:50:11.199 --> 01:50:13.439
was wondering if in that moment where you're in the hospital,
2325
01:50:13.520 --> 01:50:14.920
I don't want to give it all away. It's a
2326
01:50:14.920 --> 01:50:19.079
great chapter. Actually, uh, and you're dealing with this worst
2327
01:50:19.119 --> 01:50:21.319
pain of your life, not from being shop or from
2328
01:50:21.359 --> 01:50:25.720
the other thing that Were you just cursing? Were you
2329
01:50:25.840 --> 01:50:28.199
quietly cursing in your head? Do you think that we
2330
01:50:28.239 --> 01:50:31.520
can make our physical pain and just challenges in general
2331
01:50:31.640 --> 01:50:35.199
worse by talking about them or do you think holding
2332
01:50:35.199 --> 01:50:36.199
it in makes it worse.
2333
01:50:36.520 --> 01:50:40.000
I don't think you could make it worse by talking
2334
01:50:40.039 --> 01:50:42.920
about it. I think if people were open and honest
2335
01:50:42.920 --> 01:50:45.279
about let's just say pain in general, whether that is
2336
01:50:45.319 --> 01:50:48.359
internal or external. I think what they would be shocked
2337
01:50:48.399 --> 01:50:50.520
to find is they're generally surrounded by people willing to
2338
01:50:50.520 --> 01:50:52.479
do anything they can to help relieve that pain.
2339
01:50:52.520 --> 01:50:54.239
So I think you could probably make it much better.
2340
01:50:55.680 --> 01:50:57.520
For anybody who thinks that I might have stuff figured
2341
01:50:57.520 --> 01:51:00.000
out or I'm an intelligent person, here's a story for you.
2342
01:51:00.439 --> 01:51:01.439
Here's how stupid I am.
2343
01:51:01.920 --> 01:51:04.359
So I was doing a podcast when I first fell
2344
01:51:04.560 --> 01:51:06.359
the first little shift in my stomach.
2345
01:51:06.399 --> 01:51:07.439
Had took a sip of coffee.
2346
01:51:07.439 --> 01:51:08.600
I was like, huh, that's.
2347
01:51:08.439 --> 01:51:11.479
Weird, and I thought it was a gas bubble.
2348
01:51:12.079 --> 01:51:14.279
My wife was teaching a jiu jitsu seminar at the time.
2349
01:51:14.319 --> 01:51:16.600
We were just south of Salt Lake City, so I
2350
01:51:16.640 --> 01:51:20.199
got done with that. I couldn't really stand up straight,
2351
01:51:20.680 --> 01:51:22.439
but it was the open map portion, so throw the
2352
01:51:22.439 --> 01:51:27.239
gea on go roll for ninety minutes. Couldn't definitely could
2353
01:51:27.239 --> 01:51:29.640
not stand up straight after that, So let's just slouching
2354
01:51:29.680 --> 01:51:31.600
in a chair, you know, to try to hide it
2355
01:51:31.600 --> 01:51:33.800
from my wife, who had at that point started looking
2356
01:51:33.840 --> 01:51:37.199
over at me and she was like, what's going on?
2357
01:51:37.239 --> 01:51:38.720
My god, I just got a stomachache. It's not that
2358
01:51:38.720 --> 01:51:41.239
big of a deal. And we were going to drive
2359
01:51:41.479 --> 01:51:45.039
from Salt Lake City back to Kallispell, Montana, where I live,
2360
01:51:45.079 --> 01:51:49.039
which should take a day. And she was saying, hey,
2361
01:51:49.119 --> 01:51:51.479
let's get you some like, you know, gas medicine or
2362
01:51:51.520 --> 01:51:53.680
something like that, and she wanted to go to in
2363
01:51:53.720 --> 01:51:53.920
and out.
2364
01:51:53.960 --> 01:51:55.880
We don't have any in and outs in Montana.
2365
01:51:55.520 --> 01:51:57.439
For people who live around in and outs. I'm here
2366
01:51:57.479 --> 01:51:59.359
to tell you it's a really big thing to people
2367
01:51:59.359 --> 01:52:01.279
who don't live around them. I don't know why I.
2368
01:52:01.279 --> 01:52:02.279
Was gray for you darn good.
2369
01:52:02.359 --> 01:52:04.880
Yeah, I was raised by them or around them, so
2370
01:52:05.000 --> 01:52:06.600
to me, not that big of a deal. I'll grab
2371
01:52:06.600 --> 01:52:09.159
them when I can, but also not going to totally
2372
01:52:09.199 --> 01:52:12.199
detour off to go get one. So she goes and
2373
01:52:12.239 --> 01:52:14.680
gets her you know, double double whatever it is, pulls
2374
01:52:14.680 --> 01:52:16.760
into the Walgreens. I'm in the passenger seat at this point.
2375
01:52:16.800 --> 01:52:18.760
She first off, she tricks me. I drove her to
2376
01:52:18.880 --> 01:52:21.159
the in and out. She's like, just let me drive it.
2377
01:52:21.640 --> 01:52:21.960
Fine.
2378
01:52:22.159 --> 01:52:25.159
We get to the Walgreens. I'm in a good amount
2379
01:52:25.199 --> 01:52:26.960
of pain at this point. She goes inside to get
2380
01:52:27.560 --> 01:52:29.880
gas X pills or whatever. She comes out. I am
2381
01:52:29.960 --> 01:52:32.439
upside down in my seat trying to relieve the gas
2382
01:52:32.479 --> 01:52:33.880
bubble because that's what I thought it was. So my
2383
01:52:33.920 --> 01:52:34.319
head was.
2384
01:52:34.279 --> 01:52:35.640
Down by where you keep your feet.
2385
01:52:36.520 --> 01:52:38.760
I didn't let her know. So she comes back into
2386
01:52:38.760 --> 01:52:42.800
the cars like what are you doing? Just fully inverted
2387
01:52:42.960 --> 01:52:45.560
in the car, like I'm fine, just you know, it's
2388
01:52:45.560 --> 01:52:46.880
just trying to see if I could get the gas
2389
01:52:46.880 --> 01:52:51.119
bubble to dislodge. And she asked me, what do you
2390
01:52:51.119 --> 01:52:52.640
want to do? Do you need to go to the hospital,
2391
01:52:52.720 --> 01:52:54.840
Like I think we're gonna be okay, just start driving home.
2392
01:52:54.920 --> 01:52:56.640
We'll be going through Salt Lake so we'll get to
2393
01:52:56.640 --> 01:52:59.079
a higher level of care that gets worse. She got
2394
01:52:59.119 --> 01:53:01.840
onto the phone, googled the nearest hospital and drove me
2395
01:53:01.920 --> 01:53:03.920
straight there. So that's how smart I am when it
2396
01:53:03.960 --> 01:53:07.680
comes to pain. I wasn't verbalizing how bad it was,
2397
01:53:07.760 --> 01:53:10.560
and it wasn't. It was incrementally getting worse. But that's
2398
01:53:10.600 --> 01:53:13.399
an example of a fie hundred percent don't have anything
2399
01:53:13.439 --> 01:53:16.000
figured out. That's how dumb I am, and be keeping
2400
01:53:16.000 --> 01:53:18.000
it to myself didn't help much, but she knew me
2401
01:53:18.119 --> 01:53:20.520
well enough that it was time to go. I was
2402
01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:22.239
able to walk into the emergency room and then I
2403
01:53:22.319 --> 01:53:24.359
ended up laying on the emergency room floor mostly because
2404
01:53:24.399 --> 01:53:26.600
it was cool and I was starting to sweat at
2405
01:53:26.600 --> 01:53:30.159
that point. They bring me in and did a bunch
2406
01:53:30.159 --> 01:53:32.600
of imaging and I had an intestinal blockage which required
2407
01:53:32.600 --> 01:53:36.439
emergency surgery the next day. The most painful portion of that, though,
2408
01:53:37.199 --> 01:53:41.239
was about six hours when they gave me this fluid
2409
01:53:41.439 --> 01:53:44.399
that you drink to constrict all of your intestines that
2410
01:53:44.399 --> 01:53:46.960
they generally give to elderly people who haven't shit in weeks.
2411
01:53:47.600 --> 01:53:49.039
So what ended up having is I had a loop
2412
01:53:49.039 --> 01:53:51.359
of scar tissue on the inside wall of my stomach
2413
01:53:51.800 --> 01:53:54.720
that a piece of intestines had gone through and it cinched,
2414
01:53:55.760 --> 01:54:00.399
so that particular red juice of death was the single
2415
01:54:00.560 --> 01:54:05.239
most consistent pain that I have ever been in athletics,
2416
01:54:05.239 --> 01:54:08.319
sweat through all my clothing. My sister and I have
2417
01:54:08.399 --> 01:54:11.119
a genetic blood abnormality where I don't process OPI it's
2418
01:54:11.119 --> 01:54:12.640
the same way as people do, so morphine to me
2419
01:54:12.720 --> 01:54:13.600
doesn't even do anything.
2420
01:54:13.640 --> 01:54:14.520
I did not know that.
2421
01:54:14.479 --> 01:54:17.000
Until I got to the emergency room in Baghdad after
2422
01:54:17.039 --> 01:54:19.960
being shot, and I kept asking for more morphine and
2423
01:54:19.960 --> 01:54:22.079
the guy pulled out a chart and said, this is
2424
01:54:22.119 --> 01:54:25.359
what you weigh, this is your dosage. You are now
2425
01:54:25.479 --> 01:54:27.840
at the threshold if we give you more, your heart's
2426
01:54:27.880 --> 01:54:31.600
gonna stop. So they stopped the morphine put me underlauded,
2427
01:54:32.359 --> 01:54:36.600
barely touching the pain at the maximum dosage of delauded.
2428
01:54:37.399 --> 01:54:38.199
But that was.
2429
01:54:40.239 --> 01:54:43.039
The worst pain I've ever been in. And it's funny
2430
01:54:43.039 --> 01:54:46.920
that you ask about talking about it or not. My
2431
01:54:47.039 --> 01:54:49.680
sister is a nurse, she's been in healthcare for quite
2432
01:54:49.720 --> 01:54:54.359
some time, and they had just gone on vacation and
2433
01:54:54.399 --> 01:54:58.039
my wife wanted to get a hold of them, and
2434
01:54:58.039 --> 01:55:00.600
I'm like, whatever you do, do not called them and
2435
01:55:00.680 --> 01:55:04.199
ruined their vacation. What she was trying to do was
2436
01:55:04.359 --> 01:55:07.279
understand what she needed to say to the staff so
2437
01:55:07.319 --> 01:55:09.600
she could talk to them in their language because the
2438
01:55:09.640 --> 01:55:12.000
dosages they were getting, it just wasn't doing anything. And
2439
01:55:12.039 --> 01:55:15.439
I think to the degree they thought I was like
2440
01:55:15.600 --> 01:55:18.279
seeking meds, even though I think the athletics sweat might
2441
01:55:18.319 --> 01:55:18.600
have been a.
2442
01:55:18.600 --> 01:55:20.920
Little bit of a tell. And the fact that I'm like.
2443
01:55:21.560 --> 01:55:23.439
Writing and the doctor's coming, I'm like, I don't care
2444
01:55:23.479 --> 01:55:24.720
what it is, cut it out right now, we can
2445
01:55:24.760 --> 01:55:26.039
just do start it. He's like, oh, we got to
2446
01:55:26.079 --> 01:55:29.119
do imagery and you gotta do paperwork and sign my name.
2447
01:55:29.279 --> 01:55:31.319
That like, let's just do the knock me out and
2448
01:55:31.319 --> 01:55:32.640
cut this out of my body. Right now, I don't
2449
01:55:32.640 --> 01:55:36.760
even care what's left. But I didn't even want to
2450
01:55:36.800 --> 01:55:39.720
share that with my sister because I didn't want to
2451
01:55:39.800 --> 01:55:42.159
ruin her experience with her family in another country.
2452
01:55:42.199 --> 01:55:43.800
And that didn't make anything better.
2453
01:55:44.199 --> 01:55:47.119
Shortly after that, right after I told my wife not
2454
01:55:47.159 --> 01:55:49.159
to call her, she went outside and called her, and
2455
01:55:49.159 --> 01:55:50.880
then I got switched over to the ICU where they
2456
01:55:50.920 --> 01:55:52.640
hit me with the ketemine, and that did the trick
2457
01:55:53.239 --> 01:55:56.239
almost to the point where I almost they almost pushed
2458
01:55:56.279 --> 01:55:57.840
me into the k hole, and I didn't like that
2459
01:55:57.920 --> 01:55:58.319
at all.
2460
01:55:58.399 --> 01:56:00.319
I could hear the hairs.
2461
01:56:00.039 --> 01:56:02.199
On the inside of my ears starting to move around,
2462
01:56:02.760 --> 01:56:04.479
and it was a dead quiet room, and I remember
2463
01:56:04.479 --> 01:56:04.880
saying to.
2464
01:56:04.800 --> 01:56:06.479
My wife, can you hear it?
2465
01:56:06.479 --> 01:56:10.000
It's so loud in here, and she's like, it is
2466
01:56:10.680 --> 01:56:13.880
completely and utterly silent right at the lip to the
2467
01:56:13.920 --> 01:56:15.840
point where I told the doctor, please, no more ketamine,
2468
01:56:15.840 --> 01:56:17.439
regardless of what it takes. But then they went and.
2469
01:56:17.359 --> 01:56:18.039
Did the surgery.
2470
01:56:19.359 --> 01:56:22.840
All of that to say, the more open and honest
2471
01:56:22.880 --> 01:56:25.920
I was, the better it got. In that time where
2472
01:56:25.960 --> 01:56:28.439
I was trying to not share that or not talk
2473
01:56:28.479 --> 01:56:30.920
about the pain, it was still just as real for me,
2474
01:56:32.239 --> 01:56:35.199
But there was no benefit in being quiet like that.
2475
01:56:35.279 --> 01:56:37.640
And I think that that's something that people can in
2476
01:56:37.640 --> 01:56:41.880
my life, and I'm not sure yours. Every time I've
2477
01:56:41.960 --> 01:56:48.279
verbalized pain or grief or struggle surrounded by people willing
2478
01:56:48.319 --> 01:56:51.560
to help out, why not talk about it? What's the
2479
01:56:51.600 --> 01:56:53.560
potential downside if you look at it purely from a
2480
01:56:53.560 --> 01:56:56.600
physical perspective? Was me suffering for a few more hours
2481
01:56:57.039 --> 01:57:02.159
because I'm an idiot? Well, I totally.
2482
01:57:01.960 --> 01:57:07.800
Agree that when it's real pain, it's important to share. Also,
2483
01:57:08.479 --> 01:57:11.079
God bless your your wife for not listening to you
2484
01:57:11.479 --> 01:57:13.119
around this particular issue.
2485
01:57:13.079 --> 01:57:15.239
He's got me figured out. It's everything up to a point.
2486
01:57:15.279 --> 01:57:17.119
You're like, nope, I'm we're gonna We're gonna go ahead
2487
01:57:17.119 --> 01:57:18.159
and take the wheel from here.
2488
01:57:18.239 --> 01:57:21.880
Yeah, it's like I in uh, before we came in here,
2489
01:57:21.880 --> 01:57:23.960
we're talking about dogs. We'll get back. But you know,
2490
01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:26.199
having owned a bulldog, mast if you realize that they
2491
01:57:26.359 --> 01:57:31.079
hide their pain like he, you know, ran out to uh,
2492
01:57:31.319 --> 01:57:33.880
you know, to they don't have knees, right, but it
2493
01:57:33.920 --> 01:57:35.880
ran out to a CL's right. I mean, he was
2494
01:57:35.920 --> 01:57:38.159
his own worst enemy. But he would never quit on
2495
01:57:38.199 --> 01:57:39.640
me either. So It's like you kind of have to
2496
01:57:39.640 --> 01:57:44.399
know that about bulldogs, right, So there's enough bulldog in you.
2497
01:57:44.399 --> 01:57:47.079
You have a dashed a wiener dog. I know that
2498
01:57:47.119 --> 01:57:50.560
they're very, very smart, and they're kind of mischievous, but
2499
01:57:50.760 --> 01:57:51.560
they're loyal.
2500
01:57:51.760 --> 01:57:56.159
They You are either one of their people or you're
2501
01:57:56.199 --> 01:58:00.520
one of their enemies. Is that you I'm his probably
2502
01:58:00.520 --> 01:58:01.239
his favorite person?
2503
01:58:01.319 --> 01:58:03.399
No? I meant is that your phenotype two is that
2504
01:58:03.439 --> 01:58:05.159
you're either one of my people or you're one of
2505
01:58:05.159 --> 01:58:05.720
my enemies.
2506
01:58:06.479 --> 01:58:07.920
I don't think so, Okay, yeah, you.
2507
01:58:07.920 --> 01:58:08.880
Don't strike me that way.
2508
01:58:08.920 --> 01:58:11.439
I am inherently distrustful of human beings, just based off
2509
01:58:11.520 --> 01:58:16.239
my own personal experience all human beings. Not all human beings, well, yes,
2510
01:58:16.359 --> 01:58:18.680
the species, but not every person.
2511
01:58:18.399 --> 01:58:19.399
That I that I meet.
2512
01:58:19.479 --> 01:58:23.479
I am just aware that there is a sub section
2513
01:58:23.680 --> 01:58:27.720
of who we are that is out there that ticks
2514
01:58:28.079 --> 01:58:30.439
in the completely opposite manner with which I do. And
2515
01:58:30.439 --> 01:58:32.800
I'm not to say here to say that's right or wrong,
2516
01:58:33.199 --> 01:58:36.000
but I've seen it enough with my own eyes that
2517
01:58:36.720 --> 01:58:37.920
I can never forget that.
2518
01:58:38.000 --> 01:58:40.159
You're talking about from your time on deployments.
2519
01:58:40.520 --> 01:58:44.720
Yeah, yeah, just seeing beliefs and ideologies that are completely
2520
01:58:44.800 --> 01:58:47.319
at odds with what my beliefs and ideologies are and
2521
01:58:48.000 --> 01:58:50.039
sorry for anybody listening to this. Whatever your belief in
2522
01:58:50.079 --> 01:58:52.279
ideology is, there is an access out there that feels
2523
01:58:52.319 --> 01:58:54.079
that way. That's just the way that it is. It
2524
01:58:54.079 --> 01:58:57.520
doesn't mean you should distrust everybody. I just remind myself
2525
01:58:57.520 --> 01:59:00.000
that human beings are really capable of some gnarly stuff.
2526
01:59:00.039 --> 01:59:04.279
But I also don't walk around snap judging everybody. I
2527
01:59:04.319 --> 01:59:06.720
try to enjoy my life just like everybody else does.
2528
01:59:07.159 --> 01:59:10.399
But yeah, for that dog, it's uh, you can go
2529
01:59:10.439 --> 01:59:12.359
from being one of his enemies to one of his friends, though,
2530
01:59:12.520 --> 01:59:14.479
if you have enough treats and spend enough time around him.
2531
01:59:14.479 --> 01:59:16.439
They didn't get super excited when he sees you. But
2532
01:59:16.439 --> 01:59:17.399
they're amazing dogs.
2533
01:59:17.479 --> 01:59:19.800
Yeah, I love Dashin So I don't know that I
2534
01:59:19.880 --> 01:59:24.560
have the uh, the tenacity to own one, but I
2535
01:59:24.560 --> 01:59:29.760
mean because bulldogs are stubborn, but they're so food driven
2536
01:59:30.680 --> 01:59:35.000
and they're not that smart. Tell them that I've had
2537
01:59:35.000 --> 01:59:36.760
a bulldog long enough and now a second one to
2538
01:59:36.800 --> 01:59:39.399
know that they're it's part of what makes them great.
2539
01:59:40.000 --> 01:59:43.800
They don't do advanced math on their life experience. They're
2540
01:59:43.800 --> 01:59:48.520
doing basic addition and sleeping. We have they'll die for you.
2541
01:59:49.239 --> 01:59:51.199
But if your life isn't on the line, they're not
2542
01:59:51.239 --> 01:59:53.560
doing shit at all. That's kind of like the bulldog.
2543
01:59:54.000 --> 01:59:58.119
Our dog does puzzles. Yeah, so right, that's what I'm
2544
01:59:58.159 --> 01:59:58.720
talking about.
2545
01:59:58.800 --> 02:00:01.119
Yeah, And like we have an outside fetch ball that
2546
02:00:01.239 --> 02:00:03.319
I thought didn't fit through the doggy door. It was
2547
02:00:03.359 --> 02:00:05.239
in the house the other day. What's going on?
2548
02:00:05.399 --> 02:00:09.960
Right? Right? Totally same species, all completely different brain structures.
2549
02:00:10.000 --> 02:00:11.920
And yeah, well, and they were bred to be independent
2550
02:00:11.920 --> 02:00:13.880
because they were bred to be at down in little
2551
02:00:13.880 --> 02:00:15.840
tunnels going for I tell people they are bred to
2552
02:00:15.840 --> 02:00:18.159
fight lions. Nobody seems to believe me, and I'm also not.
2553
02:00:18.119 --> 02:00:20.279
Sure that that's true. But seventy five of them, yeah,
2554
02:00:20.319 --> 02:00:20.760
like rats.
2555
02:00:20.840 --> 02:00:23.399
Yeah, that's why I tell peoplely hunting packs. Obviously I
2556
02:00:23.399 --> 02:00:26.000
would be terrified of seventy five Wiener dogs chasing me down,
2557
02:00:26.039 --> 02:00:30.880
absolutely down in tunnels. And that's also why they bark
2558
02:00:30.960 --> 02:00:32.840
so much, and why their bark is so loud, So
2559
02:00:32.880 --> 02:00:35.319
it's their handlers can track them as they went. So
2560
02:00:35.840 --> 02:00:38.680
a lot of that stuff makes sense, not necessarily in
2561
02:00:38.720 --> 02:00:41.760
an urban setting, but you know, it's fun to deal with.
2562
02:00:42.319 --> 02:00:45.479
Your dog needs to do puzzles or he'll drive you crazy. Man,
2563
02:00:45.760 --> 02:00:51.319
we go down the conceptual rabbit hole of dog breeds.
2564
02:00:51.359 --> 02:00:54.520
But we won't because we left an important plate spinning
2565
02:00:54.600 --> 02:00:57.640
that I want to return to. This notion of time
2566
02:00:57.680 --> 02:01:03.159
perception to navigate every day life more effectively, and time
2567
02:01:03.199 --> 02:01:10.520
perception to navigate the real, really hard stuff. Your community,
2568
02:01:10.560 --> 02:01:13.399
by virtue of the work that you guys didn't do,
2569
02:01:13.960 --> 02:01:17.680
loses a lot of people relative to other professions. There's
2570
02:01:17.720 --> 02:01:20.840
a high fatality rate relative to other professions. But in
2571
02:01:20.920 --> 02:01:24.640
the larger outside world now, you know, we are seeing
2572
02:01:25.319 --> 02:01:29.920
much more Suicide's just be real, blunt ye walking in
2573
02:01:29.960 --> 02:01:32.239
here today. We were talking to one of our team
2574
02:01:32.239 --> 02:01:34.840
members here, not seal team members, but editors that you know,
2575
02:01:35.039 --> 02:01:41.439
somebody a real, a real luminary in the skateboarding world,
2576
02:01:41.560 --> 02:01:44.399
you know, cause a death still unclear, but you know,
2577
02:01:44.479 --> 02:01:49.439
like this yet another example of somebody highly accomplished, family,
2578
02:01:49.439 --> 02:01:52.920
et cetera. I have a colleague who recently sadly took
2579
02:01:52.920 --> 02:01:55.560
his own life. Like this just happens across domains, right,
2580
02:01:55.920 --> 02:01:57.600
and it's not just men, it's women too, But it
2581
02:01:57.600 --> 02:02:00.760
does seem to be higher among men these days. You know,
2582
02:02:00.760 --> 02:02:04.640
it raises some really complicated but I think important questions
2583
02:02:04.680 --> 02:02:09.439
around what is going through people's minds that would lead
2584
02:02:09.479 --> 02:02:12.920
to them to think that it was or should be
2585
02:02:12.920 --> 02:02:16.079
the end of the line for them for themselves goes
2586
02:02:16.119 --> 02:02:20.279
against every bit of adaptive evolutionary biology. It goes against
2587
02:02:20.319 --> 02:02:23.439
all religious doctrine in terms of what's adaptive. So, you know,
2588
02:02:23.479 --> 02:02:27.600
there's no straightforward answer to this. But earlier we were
2589
02:02:27.600 --> 02:02:31.319
talking about before we were recording, perhaps people get into
2590
02:02:31.359 --> 02:02:34.439
a tunnel of the idea that the way they feel
2591
02:02:34.520 --> 02:02:36.079
in a given moment is the way it's going to
2592
02:02:36.079 --> 02:02:38.920
be forever. So two guys sitting here who are not
2593
02:02:38.960 --> 02:02:41.159
in that state to kind of wonder about that as
2594
02:02:42.039 --> 02:02:47.359
we can only speculate, But what do you think based
2595
02:02:47.359 --> 02:02:50.039
on what you've observed? And you welcome to share if
2596
02:02:50.079 --> 02:02:52.159
you like this from your book you talk about, Dave,
2597
02:02:52.720 --> 02:02:55.880
is there any understanding of what's going on for people
2598
02:02:56.039 --> 02:03:00.199
in the days, weeks, months, moments leading up to those
2599
02:03:00.199 --> 02:03:02.720
decisions that you know, maybe we can do some good
2600
02:03:02.720 --> 02:03:06.680
here and help people identify if they are starting to
2601
02:03:06.840 --> 02:03:09.479
enter that it's always going to feel like this mode.
2602
02:03:10.079 --> 02:03:12.880
And there have been so many conversations about this, and
2603
02:03:12.960 --> 02:03:15.159
there are so many programs.
2604
02:03:14.880 --> 02:03:18.680
That exist to try to help I'll say guys.
2605
02:03:18.359 --> 02:03:20.439
Because that's the community that I came from. With this,
2606
02:03:21.239 --> 02:03:25.159
the Green Beret community has now lost more people to
2607
02:03:25.199 --> 02:03:29.399
suicide than combat operations since two thousand and one. What yep,
2608
02:03:29.920 --> 02:03:32.159
I don't know where the seal community is with that,
2609
02:03:32.359 --> 02:03:35.359
but I bet you they're close. The numbers will eclipse
2610
02:03:35.520 --> 02:03:39.520
for sure. So it is an issue that it is
2611
02:03:39.560 --> 02:03:45.239
an unavoidable issue. Every situation is different to a degree
2612
02:03:45.319 --> 02:03:48.880
that they share some similarities. So in speaking specifically of
2613
02:03:48.920 --> 02:03:51.880
the Seal teams, I mean, there's the biggest similarity, right.
2614
02:03:51.920 --> 02:03:55.880
They came from that community, and they probably had some
2615
02:03:56.079 --> 02:04:00.560
semblance of shared experiences, whether that be deployments, time away
2616
02:04:00.600 --> 02:04:04.239
from family, the psychological and physiological stresses of the job.
2617
02:04:05.920 --> 02:04:10.239
But it doesn't seem to impact everybody equally either. Everybody's
2618
02:04:10.279 --> 02:04:12.680
experience is different. You can be in a room I
2619
02:04:12.720 --> 02:04:14.279
was going to say with six people, but it's unlikely
2620
02:04:14.279 --> 02:04:16.039
you'll be in a room with six people, just because
2621
02:04:17.600 --> 02:04:19.439
we don't generally have that many people and we try
2622
02:04:19.479 --> 02:04:21.720
to solve issues with as few as possible.
2623
02:04:21.840 --> 02:04:22.600
It's say four.
2624
02:04:23.119 --> 02:04:28.399
I have no understanding why the same shared experience, although
2625
02:04:28.439 --> 02:04:33.479
maybe viewed from a slightly different angle, in totality, could
2626
02:04:33.479 --> 02:04:36.600
break somebody but not the other three, or why everybody
2627
02:04:36.640 --> 02:04:39.199
has a different volume. You know, somebody's got this much
2628
02:04:39.279 --> 02:04:43.079
volume versus this much versus a thimble. And I don't
2629
02:04:43.159 --> 02:04:49.520
understand why those experiences seem to break some people, or
2630
02:04:49.560 --> 02:04:52.279
in my opinion, I think they can if you put
2631
02:04:52.319 --> 02:04:54.880
the work in make you an even better version of yourself.
2632
02:04:55.039 --> 02:04:56.600
And I also think that you can pour some of
2633
02:04:56.600 --> 02:04:58.199
the stuff out or drill a hole in the bottom
2634
02:04:58.199 --> 02:05:04.159
and work through these things, Dave being the example, the
2635
02:05:04.199 --> 02:05:07.479
things that stick out would be And again this is me,
2636
02:05:07.640 --> 02:05:08.479
this is me speaking.
2637
02:05:08.520 --> 02:05:09.800
I can't speak for Dave.
2638
02:05:12.199 --> 02:05:16.079
There was a huge delta I think between how he
2639
02:05:16.159 --> 02:05:20.159
thought of himself and how other people thought of him.
2640
02:05:22.399 --> 02:05:24.760
And in most of the funerals that I've gone to
2641
02:05:25.000 --> 02:05:31.279
that involve suicide, the number one question is why why
2642
02:05:31.319 --> 02:05:34.079
didn't somebody reach out for help? Or and maybe they
2643
02:05:34.079 --> 02:05:35.880
did because you know you don't. I mean, I guess
2644
02:05:35.920 --> 02:05:38.319
you could look at their electronic device, or maybe it
2645
02:05:38.359 --> 02:05:38.600
was a.
2646
02:05:38.520 --> 02:05:41.159
Face to face. It's hard to say, but the.
2647
02:05:41.119 --> 02:05:47.039
Difference in what Dave left behind. He left behind some journals,
2648
02:05:48.159 --> 02:05:53.880
and I think that there are pros and cons if
2649
02:05:53.880 --> 02:05:56.800
you are in a place where you have the opportunity
2650
02:05:56.840 --> 02:05:59.439
to read somebody what they have left behind, and not
2651
02:06:00.600 --> 02:06:02.199
you may not want to know. It may make it
2652
02:06:02.239 --> 02:06:06.119
more difficult because I've also seen people attach a very
2653
02:06:06.159 --> 02:06:09.039
immense amount of grief because they either think that it
2654
02:06:09.039 --> 02:06:12.520
was written and left Behind was specifically about them, or
2655
02:06:12.560 --> 02:06:14.880
they oh, man, I was there and I could have
2656
02:06:15.119 --> 02:06:17.159
You know that could have, would have, should have, which
2657
02:06:17.199 --> 02:06:19.479
is all hypothetical and doesn't change the fact that it
2658
02:06:19.479 --> 02:06:22.520
had already happened. But I've seen people deeply, deeply struggle
2659
02:06:22.560 --> 02:06:25.520
with that, So that would be the negative. The pro
2660
02:06:25.640 --> 02:06:28.920
could be perhaps I don't know closure, So it really
2661
02:06:28.920 --> 02:06:31.600
depends on the person choose wisely as somebody who has
2662
02:06:32.680 --> 02:06:36.520
experienced that. My experiences, it was a combination of both.
2663
02:06:36.800 --> 02:06:40.119
I felt a deeper level of understanding, but also a
2664
02:06:40.159 --> 02:06:45.880
deep sense I wish I would have done more the
2665
02:06:45.920 --> 02:06:53.279
internal struggles in self talk in monologue, I couldn't read
2666
02:06:53.279 --> 02:07:02.079
it without crying. And I don't think he realized how
2667
02:07:02.159 --> 02:07:06.000
highly other people thought of him. The gap between the
2668
02:07:06.039 --> 02:07:10.359
two is just unbelievable. He and not everybody is He
2669
02:07:10.479 --> 02:07:14.359
was isolated at the time. There was alcohol involved, the
2670
02:07:14.359 --> 02:07:18.319
best of my knowledge, which unfortunately, especially in the community
2671
02:07:18.319 --> 02:07:21.520
that I come from, those two things are pretty often tied,
2672
02:07:21.560 --> 02:07:24.359
not always, but often tied alcohol in that decision as well.
2673
02:07:24.840 --> 02:07:27.640
And the stats are pretty well back about you know,
2674
02:07:27.720 --> 02:07:28.640
the alcohol being.
2675
02:07:28.880 --> 02:07:32.079
You could speak to this and you know the.
2676
02:07:31.199 --> 02:07:34.800
Central nervous system depressant. It's like, yeah, I'm feeling the
2677
02:07:34.800 --> 02:07:36.720
best I've ever felt. It generally will spiral you in
2678
02:07:36.760 --> 02:07:40.159
the other direction. But when I look at Dave, he
2679
02:07:40.439 --> 02:07:43.439
was and is to this day, what I would consider
2680
02:07:43.479 --> 02:07:46.920
to be the standard for a team guy. And what
2681
02:07:46.960 --> 02:07:49.640
I loved about him so much is that not only
2682
02:07:49.680 --> 02:07:52.279
did he expect that standard from other people, but he
2683
02:07:52.279 --> 02:07:54.680
held in himself and actually more than that, I think
2684
02:07:54.680 --> 02:07:58.399
I would say he held himself to a higher standard
2685
02:07:59.199 --> 02:08:01.800
than he would hold other people too. If you met
2686
02:08:01.840 --> 02:08:03.520
his standard, you were going to get two thumbs up,
2687
02:08:03.560 --> 02:08:05.279
probably not a pat on the back, but you were
2688
02:08:05.279 --> 02:08:06.560
going to get two thumbs up, and you were going
2689
02:08:06.600 --> 02:08:06.840
to know you.
2690
02:08:06.840 --> 02:08:07.479
Did a good job.
2691
02:08:08.640 --> 02:08:10.479
If you did not meet his standard, which I tested
2692
02:08:10.520 --> 02:08:15.520
many times, you were very specifically told where you're deficient
2693
02:08:15.520 --> 02:08:19.079
in life and as a human being, and he got
2694
02:08:19.159 --> 02:08:20.479
He had a tongue like a whip.
2695
02:08:20.560 --> 02:08:25.119
He was awesome, and I.
2696
02:08:25.039 --> 02:08:28.279
Think at the end. And this is me speaking for
2697
02:08:28.399 --> 02:08:31.319
him a little bit. I think he arrived at a
2698
02:08:31.359 --> 02:08:35.720
place where he couldn't live with the reality that he
2699
02:08:35.760 --> 02:08:38.720
couldn't hold himself to the standard that he had expected
2700
02:08:38.720 --> 02:08:41.479
from other people, and I think it destroyed him. But
2701
02:08:41.520 --> 02:08:43.199
I don't know if he shared that with anybody. I
2702
02:08:43.199 --> 02:08:45.720
don't think so. Some of the last people that he
2703
02:08:46.640 --> 02:08:51.960
spoke with knew that he was struggling.
2704
02:08:52.039 --> 02:08:52.359
For sure.
2705
02:08:52.439 --> 02:08:55.520
He had an alcohol addiction issue for sure, and for clarity,
2706
02:08:56.159 --> 02:08:57.520
I mean that's Dave.
2707
02:08:57.399 --> 02:08:58.079
Would be pissed.
2708
02:08:58.199 --> 02:09:00.840
Actually, if I didn't mention that, he would never tolerate
2709
02:09:00.840 --> 02:09:03.800
anybody else beating around the bush. He legitimately had an
2710
02:09:03.800 --> 02:09:06.760
issue with alcohol, as some people do from that community.
2711
02:09:07.760 --> 02:09:10.399
They knew that he was struggling. He's the only guy
2712
02:09:10.439 --> 02:09:14.439
I know who did multiple treatments of I have zero
2713
02:09:14.439 --> 02:09:16.920
experience in psychedelics, but from listening to people talk about
2714
02:09:16.960 --> 02:09:19.880
ayahuasca and ibu gain rides that don't seem to be
2715
02:09:19.960 --> 02:09:23.840
a very good time and oftentimes will instantaneously change the
2716
02:09:23.880 --> 02:09:28.239
relationship they have with substances, whether it's ohpiate's or alcohol.
2717
02:09:28.359 --> 02:09:31.359
Not that you would never drink again, but their relationship
2718
02:09:31.399 --> 02:09:33.439
with it just shifts. They're like, you know what, I
2719
02:09:33.439 --> 02:09:37.279
don't even have the desire to do so seventy two
2720
02:09:37.359 --> 02:09:40.199
hours later, ninety six hours later. And it's not like
2721
02:09:40.239 --> 02:09:43.479
he just tried once. He would go back, he would
2722
02:09:43.560 --> 02:09:50.720
even facilitate treatment for other people, but it wasn't working
2723
02:09:50.760 --> 02:09:55.520
for him. But he wasn't sharing that and that isolation
2724
02:09:55.760 --> 02:10:00.640
and loneliness and that difference between that standar and what he.
2725
02:10:00.600 --> 02:10:01.520
Was able to do.
2726
02:10:03.199 --> 02:10:05.359
Got him to that place where he put a gun
2727
02:10:05.359 --> 02:10:08.960
in his mouth, you know, alone, isolated at his family
2728
02:10:09.000 --> 02:10:13.079
home in Florida, and when everybody showed up at the funeral,
2729
02:10:13.119 --> 02:10:17.359
it's like, what could we have done more? And that
2730
02:10:17.399 --> 02:10:20.640
happens at every nobody's at a funeral, say it up,
2731
02:10:20.640 --> 02:10:22.920
did everything? I could never have heard that, by the way,
2732
02:10:23.520 --> 02:10:27.039
that's just God. I nailed him, like really, Exhibit A
2733
02:10:27.119 --> 02:10:29.439
would like none of us nailed it. We all fucked up?
2734
02:10:30.039 --> 02:10:34.600
Or did we do the best that we could? And
2735
02:10:34.640 --> 02:10:37.319
it's something that we can't stop. I don't know. I've
2736
02:10:37.319 --> 02:10:41.640
started to have pretty deep conversations with friends around from
2737
02:10:41.640 --> 02:10:45.880
that community around what can be done. I don't think
2738
02:10:46.319 --> 02:10:49.079
an absolutionist approach is good. I think driving to zero
2739
02:10:49.159 --> 02:10:52.520
is possible because it's impossible, because it's a it's an
2740
02:10:52.560 --> 02:10:57.319
affliction that strikes all of humanity. A reductionist approach I
2741
02:10:57.319 --> 02:11:00.880
think is helpful, but at this point, I don't know
2742
02:11:00.920 --> 02:11:05.439
what else can be done. I mean, millions of.
2743
02:11:05.399 --> 02:11:07.880
Dollars advocated towards these type of.
2744
02:11:07.800 --> 02:11:12.359
Programs, things like Ambio, you know, just South of the Border,
2745
02:11:12.880 --> 02:11:15.079
or what Marcus and Amber component are doing with vets,
2746
02:11:15.079 --> 02:11:17.199
which are largely an interface to that. And there's portals
2747
02:11:17.199 --> 02:11:19.600
and people and I'm on some of these groups where
2748
02:11:21.039 --> 02:11:23.920
even the inkling, somebody is in trouble or you need help,
2749
02:11:23.960 --> 02:11:26.640
like people are. They're trying to get stuff done, getting connected,
2750
02:11:26.640 --> 02:11:30.479
people are getting on airplanes. And I was with mutual
2751
02:11:30.520 --> 02:11:32.800
friend DJ, I think it was last week, and one
2752
02:11:32.800 --> 02:11:35.760
of his new guys who had become a team leader,
2753
02:11:35.840 --> 02:11:40.520
who had gotten out, just killed himself and both and
2754
02:11:41.880 --> 02:11:45.600
we sit there with faces like this, with things that
2755
02:11:45.640 --> 02:11:47.800
are on that we don't know what to say in
2756
02:11:47.920 --> 02:11:51.199
between us. I don't know. I don't know what's going
2757
02:11:51.239 --> 02:11:51.600
on there.
2758
02:11:53.000 --> 02:11:55.800
Yeah, well I certainly don't know either. I think that
2759
02:11:58.520 --> 02:12:02.680
if we can borrow anything useful from other areas of
2760
02:12:04.279 --> 02:12:08.079
mental health and neuroscience, because I think ultimately this is
2761
02:12:08.079 --> 02:12:10.199
a brain issue, right, I don't think it's like a
2762
02:12:10.239 --> 02:12:12.640
gut health issue, although that could impact it, right, I
2763
02:12:12.720 --> 02:12:14.760
might be right, right, it could be. Yeah, I mean
2764
02:12:14.800 --> 02:12:17.399
that it could be. But I think it's a thought
2765
02:12:17.399 --> 02:12:19.479
process that leads to a decision that you know, and
2766
02:12:19.479 --> 02:12:21.079
that's in the brain. So if we were to just
2767
02:12:21.159 --> 02:12:24.119
take like start at ground truths, not to try and
2768
02:12:24.199 --> 02:12:28.399
make this reductionist, we'd say, maybe suicidality is not one thing,
2769
02:12:29.239 --> 02:12:31.920
just like we know that you can get a fever
2770
02:12:32.000 --> 02:12:33.760
from a lot of things. I don't want to say
2771
02:12:33.760 --> 02:12:36.760
no one is immune, because I do think that fortunately
2772
02:12:36.760 --> 02:12:40.119
it's you know, not everybody, but maybe everyone has the
2773
02:12:40.119 --> 02:12:42.000
potential to go there, and there's certain buffers that we're
2774
02:12:42.000 --> 02:12:42.560
not aware of.
2775
02:12:43.159 --> 02:12:45.760
You might come out of the box immune to it.
2776
02:12:46.359 --> 02:12:49.880
But I think either something psychologically or physiologically can happen
2777
02:12:49.920 --> 02:12:52.840
that maybe could open a door that had started off closed.
2778
02:12:54.039 --> 02:12:57.159
That's a guess. In all these instances they're leaping to
2779
02:12:57.199 --> 02:13:01.479
mind of Unfortunately, real life suicide, every single one of
2780
02:13:01.479 --> 02:13:04.800
the people was a very high performer at one point,
2781
02:13:04.960 --> 02:13:09.399
highly very highly regarded, revered, et cetera. And so I
2782
02:13:09.399 --> 02:13:13.079
think you've really touched on something important, which is that
2783
02:13:13.399 --> 02:13:15.640
this notion of like it's lonely at the top. There's
2784
02:13:16.119 --> 02:13:18.880
it's true that there's people are busy, you know, there's
2785
02:13:18.920 --> 02:13:22.159
not the general public is not so concerned about you know,
2786
02:13:22.520 --> 02:13:25.239
winners and their plight, you know, but when you hear
2787
02:13:25.279 --> 02:13:29.560
about something like this, you know, you realize that it
2788
02:13:30.000 --> 02:13:32.720
people can be quite lonely. And perhaps as the number
2789
02:13:32.800 --> 02:13:35.239
of true peers that somebody has because they're in a
2790
02:13:35.279 --> 02:13:39.039
leadership position over already ultra high performers, the need to impress,
2791
02:13:39.079 --> 02:13:42.159
the need to not have their their image shattered, is
2792
02:13:42.279 --> 02:13:44.159
it goes up and up and up and up. There
2793
02:13:44.239 --> 02:13:47.239
might be something there. I think there's certainly important work
2794
02:13:47.279 --> 02:13:50.439
to be done, but there aren't real data. I don't
2795
02:13:50.439 --> 02:13:52.800
think on the number of people who were kind of
2796
02:13:52.880 --> 02:13:56.319
veering in this direction but somebody reached out and then
2797
02:13:56.359 --> 02:13:58.640
they're six months later saying, hey, thanks, you know, you know,
2798
02:13:58.680 --> 02:14:00.880
you really helped me back when maybe they weren't right
2799
02:14:00.920 --> 02:14:02.880
at that edge. Yeah, So we don't have data on
2800
02:14:02.920 --> 02:14:05.600
what worked to keep people away from this edge either.
2801
02:14:06.039 --> 02:14:09.319
So it's a really tough problem. But you know, tough
2802
02:14:09.319 --> 02:14:11.319
problems are tractable.
2803
02:14:11.680 --> 02:14:13.760
Yeah, I worry less about the guys who are able
2804
02:14:13.760 --> 02:14:17.960
to verbalize what they're going through. It's the ones who
2805
02:14:18.000 --> 02:14:21.640
are more quiet you talk about, you know, lonely at
2806
02:14:21.640 --> 02:14:22.399
the top Dave.
2807
02:14:22.479 --> 02:14:24.640
I left Dave's military career largely out of it.
2808
02:14:25.680 --> 02:14:29.560
He originally wanted to go to development group and didn't
2809
02:14:29.560 --> 02:14:31.680
make it through the screen process. I think largely more
2810
02:14:31.760 --> 02:14:34.239
due to a personality conflict with one of the instructors,
2811
02:14:34.239 --> 02:14:37.079
which totally happens, so you get on somebody's radar, you
2812
02:14:37.159 --> 02:14:39.000
might have to come back through. But he ended up
2813
02:14:39.039 --> 02:14:44.239
going to another Jaysow command that works at an incredibly
2814
02:14:44.279 --> 02:14:52.800
high level, very less known oftentimes by yourself in adversarial countries,
2815
02:14:52.880 --> 02:14:55.640
and he crushed it there I think for like ten years.
2816
02:14:56.319 --> 02:15:02.159
I mean it's like the top former of performers. And
2817
02:15:02.159 --> 02:15:04.199
then they contracted him to come back and teach guys
2818
02:15:04.520 --> 02:15:08.439
in their own very long selection course. What I didn't
2819
02:15:08.479 --> 02:15:13.159
realize is how much he was struggling just holding up
2820
02:15:13.199 --> 02:15:16.119
that image. Though part of their selection course occurs out
2821
02:15:16.159 --> 02:15:20.119
in Las Vegas, he had more than one incident where
2822
02:15:20.119 --> 02:15:22.119
he thought his career was going to be over because
2823
02:15:22.119 --> 02:15:25.800
he went out and got shitfaced and got arrested. They
2824
02:15:25.880 --> 02:15:31.279
work so independently and individually so often nobody even realized
2825
02:15:31.279 --> 02:15:34.319
that he'd gotten in trouble until his security clearance came
2826
02:15:34.359 --> 02:15:37.399
back around and it popped on his security clearance, which
2827
02:15:37.760 --> 02:15:39.960
then you know, leads to a whole variety of other things.
2828
02:15:40.000 --> 02:15:42.479
But that happened to him while he was active and then.
2829
02:15:42.279 --> 02:15:45.600
After while he was out. But if you were a look.
2830
02:15:45.439 --> 02:15:48.239
At the guy, you mean, you'd say to how do
2831
02:15:48.279 --> 02:15:51.560
I match your career exactly? What exactly are you doing
2832
02:15:51.640 --> 02:15:53.760
to be able to do what it is that you're doing?
2833
02:15:54.359 --> 02:15:59.880
Man behind the curtain, Holy shit, just suffering.
2834
02:16:02.159 --> 02:16:04.199
You could see it in the writing, just in.
2835
02:16:04.119 --> 02:16:10.079
The the shape and texture of the words. You could
2836
02:16:10.119 --> 02:16:14.640
you could see it degrading towards the end, snarly.
2837
02:16:16.279 --> 02:16:18.119
And look, I'm not one of these people that thinks
2838
02:16:18.119 --> 02:16:20.039
everyone should just go do IB again, which is not
2839
02:16:20.079 --> 02:16:22.479
a recreation I experience, you know, right. But I was
2840
02:16:22.520 --> 02:16:24.840
going to say the fact that he did that has worked.
2841
02:16:25.159 --> 02:16:27.600
I'll just say this on I said it publicly before
2842
02:16:27.640 --> 02:16:30.479
we'll make sure I hammer this you know straight in
2843
02:16:30.479 --> 02:16:33.319
the middle that I've been very supportive of veteran solutions
2844
02:16:33.399 --> 02:16:36.440
because and the work that was being done at Stanford
2845
02:16:36.440 --> 02:16:40.840
to support them the arc of both successful escape from
2846
02:16:40.920 --> 02:16:44.040
addiction and PTSD whatever you want to call it, through
2847
02:16:44.159 --> 02:16:48.680
the proper use of I again, medically supervised, as well
2848
02:16:48.719 --> 02:16:53.559
as the number of just tragic instances of people who
2849
02:16:53.600 --> 02:16:57.239
didn't make it. There happened to Chad Wilkinson's wife and
2850
02:16:57.280 --> 02:16:59.479
talk to you know, and you know, it's a painful
2851
02:16:59.479 --> 02:17:01.319
thing to be it these things and hear all these
2852
02:17:01.360 --> 02:17:03.360
wonderful stories of people that feel like they were rescued,
2853
02:17:03.360 --> 02:17:06.280
their spouse was rescued, and then the spouses that are
2854
02:17:06.319 --> 02:17:10.719
there saying it's grateful this exist, and I'm frustrated that
2855
02:17:10.760 --> 02:17:13.440
it wasn't there in time, you know, their spouse or
2856
02:17:13.559 --> 02:17:17.719
parent or you know or kid. So many people have benefited,
2857
02:17:17.719 --> 02:17:21.159
but some people just seem like they're refractory to it. Well,
2858
02:17:21.159 --> 02:17:27.840
hopefully talking about suicide, frankly, will will get people thinking
2859
02:17:27.840 --> 02:17:30.600
about different avenues around it.
2860
02:17:30.840 --> 02:17:33.959
I don't know the angle. I mean, I've tried to
2861
02:17:34.000 --> 02:17:38.520
focus sometimes on talking about the impact that it has
2862
02:17:38.600 --> 02:17:41.280
on those left behind and the hopes that that would
2863
02:17:42.520 --> 02:17:47.000
I don't know, by somebody of one percent. Maybe think
2864
02:17:47.040 --> 02:17:49.639
about that for one percent and it changes literally the
2865
02:17:49.680 --> 02:17:55.239
trajectory of their life. I don't understand the choice. I
2866
02:17:55.280 --> 02:17:57.840
will describe the choice of ending your own life as
2867
02:17:57.879 --> 02:18:01.239
an irrational decision. That's I can't make any sense of
2868
02:18:01.239 --> 02:18:02.799
it other than to say, like you said, go against
2869
02:18:03.120 --> 02:18:10.360
every evolutionary everything that we can understand. So somehow people
2870
02:18:10.399 --> 02:18:14.079
are arriving at an irrational decision and considering it to
2871
02:18:14.120 --> 02:18:19.079
be the only rational solution. Talking about the people that
2872
02:18:19.120 --> 02:18:22.040
they left behind and the impact it's going to have
2873
02:18:23.040 --> 02:18:26.120
doesn't seem to have impacted it at all. I don't
2874
02:18:26.159 --> 02:18:29.760
know what the answer is. Many times, you know, I've
2875
02:18:30.360 --> 02:18:33.360
whatever is left behind or text messages the world's better off,
2876
02:18:33.479 --> 02:18:35.399
you know what I mean, better off without me. They feel,
2877
02:18:35.600 --> 02:18:36.959
I'm not going to say, they feel as if they're
2878
02:18:37.000 --> 02:18:38.920
doing the world a favor, and that's not what I
2879
02:18:38.959 --> 02:18:41.280
mean to say, But oftentimes the language is close to that,
2880
02:18:41.440 --> 02:18:45.200
like I'm doing this because you will be better off
2881
02:18:45.239 --> 02:18:49.239
without me, and again irrational decision as their only rational option.
2882
02:18:49.479 --> 02:18:53.799
I don't know. I do know that statistically it's way
2883
02:18:53.840 --> 02:18:56.680
higher in the occupation that I came from. What I
2884
02:18:56.680 --> 02:18:58.680
didn't realize and when I've started talking with a lot
2885
02:18:58.719 --> 02:19:01.040
more about guys I served with. Is there time before
2886
02:19:01.120 --> 02:19:06.120
the military though the trauma in the military can certainly
2887
02:19:06.120 --> 02:19:08.120
be unique. But I tell you what, the number of
2888
02:19:08.159 --> 02:19:10.079
guys that I've talked to now that I didn't have
2889
02:19:10.120 --> 02:19:13.520
these conversations with that when I was in. They brought
2890
02:19:13.559 --> 02:19:17.120
a full sea bag of trauma with them before. And
2891
02:19:17.159 --> 02:19:20.319
if you layer that on top of everything that happens
2892
02:19:20.360 --> 02:19:22.760
while you're in and you don't get a handle on that,
2893
02:19:24.280 --> 02:19:26.200
it's going to get a handle on you. And I
2894
02:19:26.200 --> 02:19:29.280
think that's played itself out many times. A lot of
2895
02:19:29.280 --> 02:19:31.879
the emphasis is on just the military aspect, and I'm
2896
02:19:31.879 --> 02:19:34.360
not saying that everybody from the military world came in
2897
02:19:34.360 --> 02:19:37.799
with the broken, shattered, fill in the blank bucket of trauma,
2898
02:19:38.879 --> 02:19:40.680
but there's a lot of them. The more that you
2899
02:19:40.680 --> 02:19:43.280
dig into this and that has to be addressed as
2900
02:19:43.319 --> 02:19:46.479
well too. It makes sense if you had a jacked
2901
02:19:46.520 --> 02:19:49.959
up childhood or you were bullied, what better job than
2902
02:19:50.000 --> 02:19:52.639
to be able to dispatch bullies are those that are
2903
02:19:52.680 --> 02:19:56.000
preying upon others. Yeah, that's exactly what you're going to
2904
02:19:56.040 --> 02:19:58.239
want to do, But it doesn't mean that the little
2905
02:19:58.399 --> 02:20:01.520
suitcase you brought with you isn't going to meet you
2906
02:20:01.559 --> 02:20:03.639
on the tail end of that journey. Then you pair
2907
02:20:03.719 --> 02:20:05.440
that with isolation. All the times guys get out, they'll
2908
02:20:05.479 --> 02:20:07.200
move away, you know, back to where they came from,
2909
02:20:07.559 --> 02:20:10.760
so away from their social circle. The uniform goes up
2910
02:20:10.760 --> 02:20:14.959
in the closet identity and purpose struggle that we all have.
2911
02:20:15.079 --> 02:20:19.200
When you go from that occupation social isolation. Maybe they
2912
02:20:19.200 --> 02:20:24.520
bring with them some unhealthy social habits, alcohol, whatever else
2913
02:20:24.559 --> 02:20:28.440
it may be with them with that isolation, with those struggles,
2914
02:20:28.479 --> 02:20:29.399
with that baggage.
2915
02:20:30.559 --> 02:20:33.879
It's a lot. Man. You make a very important point.
2916
02:20:33.920 --> 02:20:37.040
I think, you know, perhaps one of the reasons they
2917
02:20:37.200 --> 02:20:39.760
went into that profession is they were traumatized going in.
2918
02:20:39.799 --> 02:20:42.840
But of course, as you also pointed out, many guys
2919
02:20:42.879 --> 02:20:43.120
are not.
2920
02:20:43.319 --> 02:20:45.840
They don't want a genetic lottery. With my parents, they
2921
02:20:45.840 --> 02:20:51.200
were spectacular. But I now, I just I wish I
2922
02:20:51.200 --> 02:20:53.959
had been mature enough to sit down with people when
2923
02:20:54.000 --> 02:20:54.479
I was young.
2924
02:20:54.360 --> 02:20:58.000
To be like, dude, like, are you okay?
2925
02:20:58.479 --> 02:21:00.959
What was your what was your background up? You know,
2926
02:21:01.719 --> 02:21:03.639
tell me about your life before the teams, because nobody
2927
02:21:03.680 --> 02:21:05.000
ever asked about your life. Well, like where you're from?
2928
02:21:05.040 --> 02:21:05.239
Cool?
2929
02:21:05.239 --> 02:21:07.440
Shut up, jamake it, your bud's great, go get your shit.
2930
02:21:07.520 --> 02:21:09.559
It's time to go do gangster shit. Like okay, cool,
2931
02:21:09.639 --> 02:21:13.399
let's go to gangster shit. It's afterwards where I get
2932
02:21:13.399 --> 02:21:15.440
to know these people better at a deeper level. I'm like,
2933
02:21:15.520 --> 02:21:19.280
I'm sorry, what what situation did you come from?
2934
02:21:19.680 --> 02:21:24.200
Dave was a good example. He brought a lot with him.
2935
02:21:24.360 --> 02:21:27.760
Again, that's a data point. I can't apply that broadly,
2936
02:21:28.719 --> 02:21:31.840
but in the anecdotal conversations I have had, it is
2937
02:21:31.959 --> 02:21:35.040
trending past fifty percent of the guys brought a lot
2938
02:21:35.040 --> 02:21:36.760
of stuff with them, and.
2939
02:21:36.600 --> 02:21:41.479
The sort of hyper proclivity for alcohol might have been
2940
02:21:41.920 --> 02:21:43.520
related to that. I mean, we can do a just
2941
02:21:43.559 --> 02:21:46.479
so story, but what you're saying, you know it, it
2942
02:21:47.159 --> 02:21:50.079
ratchets together in a logical way. And of course everything
2943
02:21:50.120 --> 02:21:53.639
we're talking about wis out to the world at large.
2944
02:21:53.680 --> 02:21:57.399
I mean, checking in on people is no small thing. Yeah,
2945
02:21:57.520 --> 02:21:59.399
you know, I kick a few years ago. I talked
2946
02:21:59.399 --> 02:22:01.079
about how like, you know this group and like people
2947
02:22:01.079 --> 02:22:02.520
will just like check in in the morning, and it
2948
02:22:02.520 --> 02:22:04.440
seemed people like, oh, well, that's like it's supposed to be.
2949
02:22:04.479 --> 02:22:06.440
The health acts like, I don't know. There's one guy
2950
02:22:06.479 --> 02:22:09.040
in my in my crew that like he's he's like
2951
02:22:09.280 --> 02:22:11.959
every single morning. If we don't hear from him by
2952
02:22:12.000 --> 02:22:14.920
a day, and we're like he's dead, you know, you know,
2953
02:22:15.120 --> 02:22:17.200
and then like he's like, sorry, I'm late, guys, and
2954
02:22:17.479 --> 02:22:19.360
you know, just by virtue of that group he sends out,
2955
02:22:19.399 --> 02:22:22.280
he's you know, he sends around a Bible passage sometimes
2956
02:22:22.319 --> 02:22:24.280
like a wish for the day for folks. Everyone checks in.
2957
02:22:24.319 --> 02:22:27.040
It's like it's a real thing, Like it's a real thing.
2958
02:22:27.040 --> 02:22:28.520
And it's not just that I would be worried about him.
2959
02:22:28.559 --> 02:22:30.840
I'll honestly, I'd be worried about me if he didn't
2960
02:22:30.840 --> 02:22:33.159
send that. Now, is am I completely dependent on it? No?
2961
02:22:33.280 --> 02:22:36.959
But those small things, back to this notion of small things,
2962
02:22:37.360 --> 02:22:39.399
they can really matter, they can they can really make
2963
02:22:39.440 --> 02:22:41.120
the difference. I don't know. My mind goes to all
2964
02:22:41.159 --> 02:22:43.959
these places, and maybe I've spent more than my fair
2965
02:22:44.000 --> 02:22:47.200
share of time with our mutual friend Eddie Penny where
2966
02:22:47.399 --> 02:22:50.520
I actually think, And forgive me because I'm a scientist,
2967
02:22:50.600 --> 02:22:52.520
but these days I talk very openly. I actually think
2968
02:22:52.559 --> 02:22:56.479
that evil forces can hijack people's minds. I know it
2969
02:22:56.520 --> 02:22:59.000
sounds crazy, it sounds like conspiracy, but I believe that
2970
02:22:59.040 --> 02:23:03.440
inside of our minds, we have a susceptibility to positive messaging,
2971
02:23:03.760 --> 02:23:06.600
and we have a susceptibility to evil messaging, and it
2972
02:23:06.600 --> 02:23:10.000
can come in different forms, and I think bad forces
2973
02:23:10.079 --> 02:23:13.319
can work through us, and they tend to come through
2974
02:23:14.000 --> 02:23:16.520
the places of shame. They come through the things that
2975
02:23:16.559 --> 02:23:18.360
we don't want to acknowledge. They're like the way it
2976
02:23:18.399 --> 02:23:20.280
was described to me by someone far smarter than me.
2977
02:23:20.479 --> 02:23:25.760
It's like a lighthouse that's you know, spinning it. It's illumination,
2978
02:23:25.840 --> 02:23:29.000
and then there's like there's so like some like dirt
2979
02:23:29.079 --> 02:23:31.319
on the on the lighthouse and it casts us like
2980
02:23:31.399 --> 02:23:34.479
shard of a shadow. And that's where stuff comes in
2981
02:23:34.520 --> 02:23:36.040
and gets us. And if we can kind of see
2982
02:23:36.079 --> 02:23:38.760
that stuff and really acknowledge it, that's kind of what
2983
02:23:38.799 --> 02:23:41.879
the real trauma process, trauma healing process is about. And
2984
02:23:41.959 --> 02:23:44.120
once you own it, it's very different. Things can't get
2985
02:23:44.159 --> 02:23:46.319
to you the same way. Not I'm speaking in like
2986
02:23:46.680 --> 02:23:49.159
riddles and metaphors here, So so I want to be
2987
02:23:49.159 --> 02:23:51.559
careful because I'm a scientist. I believe in biology. But
2988
02:23:51.600 --> 02:23:54.200
I think that hopefully conversations like these we'll start to
2989
02:23:54.239 --> 02:23:57.239
open up the thought and maybe in the dialogue around this,
2990
02:23:57.280 --> 02:23:59.120
because I think the mental health community, but really the
2991
02:23:59.159 --> 02:24:01.600
general public needs to start thinking about this, yeah, in
2992
02:24:01.639 --> 02:24:04.440
a real way, because the numbers. As you mentioned, the
2993
02:24:04.440 --> 02:24:07.639
seal teams and other special operations communities are staggering, but
2994
02:24:08.239 --> 02:24:11.879
it's growing. I mean, and on and on, and I
2995
02:24:11.879 --> 02:24:15.760
don't believe anyone is completely immune. Just given the examples,
2996
02:24:15.799 --> 02:24:18.680
these are people who quote unquote everything going for them
2997
02:24:18.760 --> 02:24:23.280
and then some so god willingness will have some positive impact.
2998
02:24:23.520 --> 02:24:26.559
I think it's important that somebody like yourself, as a scientist,
2999
02:24:26.799 --> 02:24:34.159
is open to other non scientific answers or possibilities at
3000
02:24:34.239 --> 02:24:37.520
least because we clearly don't have it figured it all
3001
02:24:37.559 --> 02:24:40.440
out yet that I'm not a scientist, but I'm pretty
3002
02:24:40.440 --> 02:24:43.760
sure scientists don't know everything, regardless of how some of
3003
02:24:43.799 --> 02:24:45.479
them might like to tell you that they do.
3004
02:24:45.719 --> 02:24:47.440
Definitely do not know everything.
3005
02:24:47.719 --> 02:24:49.959
And if we don't know everything, maybe let's just keep
3006
02:24:50.000 --> 02:24:54.280
it open to possibilities because in that journey, hopefully one
3007
02:24:54.319 --> 02:24:55.719
day we will figure out everything.
3008
02:24:56.360 --> 02:24:57.559
But if we lose a bunch of.
3009
02:24:57.440 --> 02:25:00.399
People along the way because we were unwilling to least
3010
02:25:00.440 --> 02:25:04.079
even table a conversation about something maybe outside of the
3011
02:25:04.120 --> 02:25:06.799
science realm, I don't think it's worth knowing everything.
3012
02:25:07.120 --> 02:25:09.520
I think that we're talking about dogs before. I think
3013
02:25:10.000 --> 02:25:14.200
our species is a remarkable species. Technology development, I think
3014
02:25:14.200 --> 02:25:18.719
that we have incredible capacity for goodness, and I think
3015
02:25:18.799 --> 02:25:22.959
we also should finally acknowledge, after many thousands of years,
3016
02:25:22.959 --> 02:25:29.159
that we have a hardwired failure to understand ourselves, that
3017
02:25:29.239 --> 02:25:31.520
the answers are just not going to come from us.
3018
02:25:31.840 --> 02:25:33.479
This is where I sit now. I don't want to
3019
02:25:33.520 --> 02:25:35.639
sound too dogmatic about this, like it's just obvious, Like
3020
02:25:35.639 --> 02:25:40.319
you wouldn't expect fifty thousand dashuns to come up with Well,
3021
02:25:40.319 --> 02:25:42.520
maybe they could come up with a supercomputer, but you.
3022
02:25:42.479 --> 02:25:44.680
Know, I'm in on this experiment so far. Do you
3023
02:25:44.680 --> 02:25:46.159
know anybody who'd be willing to back.
3024
02:25:46.079 --> 02:25:49.360
Us in this day and age? I probably do. But
3025
02:25:49.799 --> 02:25:51.840
it's just so, you know, we tend to think that
3026
02:25:51.920 --> 02:25:53.799
because we are the curators of the earth, we are
3027
02:25:53.840 --> 02:25:56.000
the ones that control the technology, all that is true,
3028
02:25:56.360 --> 02:25:59.760
that we're sort of above our own bullshit, and we're not.
3029
02:26:00.559 --> 02:26:04.159
And so the big revelation for me was like, oh,
3030
02:26:04.520 --> 02:26:09.000
maybe we shouldn't look to ourselves certainly, or even other
3031
02:26:09.079 --> 02:26:11.600
humans or even groups of humans, or the technologies we
3032
02:26:11.680 --> 02:26:14.319
create or that combination for every answer. I do think
3033
02:26:14.360 --> 02:26:16.120
gene therapies are going to cure a lot of diseases.
3034
02:26:16.200 --> 02:26:18.399
I think that AI actually is going to be of
3035
02:26:18.399 --> 02:26:21.239
great benefit, et cetera. Et cetera. Got its issues, but
3036
02:26:21.600 --> 02:26:25.440
we'll navigate that. But when it comes to how somebody
3037
02:26:25.520 --> 02:26:29.239
like Dave could be literally take his own life, I
3038
02:26:29.239 --> 02:26:32.079
think the implementation of the solutions will have to come
3039
02:26:32.120 --> 02:26:34.159
from humans. But that really understanding the root of the
3040
02:26:34.159 --> 02:26:38.360
problem is not going to come from a strictly scientific
3041
02:26:38.399 --> 02:26:41.760
psychological understanding. This is just my belief. I think it's okay.
3042
02:26:41.840 --> 02:26:46.879
I think I like that type of malleable willingness to
3043
02:26:47.120 --> 02:26:50.079
accept other options much more than I like the dogmatic,
3044
02:26:50.200 --> 02:26:53.000
rigid You're not going to do anything other than it's
3045
02:26:53.040 --> 02:26:54.159
either this way or the highway.
3046
02:26:54.680 --> 02:26:56.479
I feel comfortable sharing this. Let's just say that I
3047
02:26:56.520 --> 02:26:57.600
knew someone very well.
3048
02:26:57.639 --> 02:26:58.040
I still know.
3049
02:26:58.159 --> 02:27:00.479
Unfortunately he's still alive in your community, who was in
3050
02:27:00.559 --> 02:27:03.399
a really challenging place and the only language I heard
3051
02:27:03.399 --> 02:27:06.040
someone else speak to him. Unfortunately he's still around. They
3052
02:27:06.200 --> 02:27:09.559
said something to him to the words of like, your
3053
02:27:09.559 --> 02:27:13.719
goggles are foggy, so you can't trust anything you think
3054
02:27:13.840 --> 02:27:17.319
or see about yourself for the next six months. You
3055
02:27:17.559 --> 02:27:19.760
only can trust these three people.
3056
02:27:20.319 --> 02:27:21.280
It's not a bad approach.
3057
02:27:21.399 --> 02:27:25.399
And he said okay, And he's like you cannot do that.
3058
02:27:25.440 --> 02:27:28.120
It's it's as if you're you're you're wearing prism glasses.
3059
02:27:28.479 --> 02:27:30.639
That's kind of what I jumped in with, borrowed that
3060
02:27:30.639 --> 02:27:35.360
from a neuroscience experiment, a d u I glass grasping
3061
02:27:35.360 --> 02:27:37.920
for the mug here, but it's actually right here. And
3062
02:27:37.959 --> 02:27:40.399
if you can just accept the fact that your your
3063
02:27:40.520 --> 02:27:43.920
optics are off, your thinking is off, you cannot trust it.
3064
02:27:44.559 --> 02:27:46.559
And the reason that resonated with me and got me
3065
02:27:46.559 --> 02:27:48.159
thinking about the other thing I just say is that
3066
02:27:49.239 --> 02:27:51.959
I think that we all have this innate desire to
3067
02:27:51.959 --> 02:27:55.040
not be controlled, and I think that I'm not gonna
3068
02:27:55.040 --> 02:27:57.000
do that. If only game could, I would have should have.
3069
02:27:57.040 --> 02:28:01.399
But if people as as hard dry like team guys
3070
02:28:01.399 --> 02:28:04.079
were just anybody we're told listen that what you feel
3071
02:28:04.159 --> 02:28:07.079
it actually is not coming from you. You're being controlled.
3072
02:28:07.959 --> 02:28:10.159
That can set up a resilience. It can I do
3073
02:28:10.200 --> 02:28:12.959
think you can trigger that intra amid singular cortex and
3074
02:28:13.000 --> 02:28:16.399
it's like, instead of fuck me or fuck that all
3075
02:28:16.399 --> 02:28:19.799
these other people, it becomes no. You can just start
3076
02:28:19.840 --> 02:28:22.680
to like, you can start to resist these forces. And
3077
02:28:22.840 --> 02:28:25.360
I do think there's something there. So I don't think
3078
02:28:25.440 --> 02:28:28.479
science alone is going to cure suicidality or psychology alone.
3079
02:28:28.479 --> 02:28:30.559
I don't think it'll come in the form of a pill. Again,
3080
02:28:30.600 --> 02:28:32.440
I think the implementation will be very much of the
3081
02:28:32.520 --> 02:28:36.639
human world. But I think that the core understanding about
3082
02:28:36.639 --> 02:28:40.040
what's happening in those moments is going to come from
3083
02:28:40.079 --> 02:28:43.639
accepting a bigger picture. And I think it's obvious what
3084
02:28:43.680 --> 02:28:47.440
I'm talking about here, and hey, why not. It's a
3085
02:28:47.479 --> 02:28:48.040
deep topic.
3086
02:28:48.079 --> 02:28:51.239
Man, It's a tough one, and everybody wants easy solutions.
3087
02:28:51.360 --> 02:28:53.399
I just don't think there is one on that topic.
3088
02:28:54.600 --> 02:28:56.600
It's a painful, long road.
3089
02:28:57.319 --> 02:29:01.079
Bringing it to the everyday life. I was imagining if
3090
02:29:01.120 --> 02:29:04.120
I was like a I don't know, twenty year old
3091
02:29:04.239 --> 02:29:06.520
or thirty year old or forty or fifty year old,
3092
02:29:06.719 --> 02:29:09.280
do you ever think you'd be finished? I said, I
3093
02:29:09.360 --> 02:29:11.760
actually know what my fiftieth birthday, I was like Joe Strummer,
3094
02:29:11.799 --> 02:29:14.079
one of my heroes, died at fifty. My graduate advisor
3095
02:29:14.200 --> 02:29:16.520
dead at fifty, like a lot of friends, even though
3096
02:29:16.520 --> 02:29:19.440
I was in the military, dead early. Like, I felt
3097
02:29:19.479 --> 02:29:22.840
really lucky to make it to fifty, and I feel
3098
02:29:23.040 --> 02:29:26.360
very excited about what's to come. But I'm mindful of
3099
02:29:26.399 --> 02:29:29.120
everything we just talked about. Yeah, you know, but no,
3100
02:29:29.239 --> 02:29:31.600
I never never did. But the fifth floor is awesome
3101
02:29:31.600 --> 02:29:34.440
because Kelly Starrett described it to me best. He said, listen,
3102
02:29:34.479 --> 02:29:36.079
when you're in your forties and you're like in good
3103
02:29:36.079 --> 02:29:37.959
shape and your life is together, you're like, yeah, like
3104
02:29:38.479 --> 02:29:40.360
you're doing okay relative to your peers. The moment you
3105
02:29:40.399 --> 02:29:42.840
hit fifty like you're like, all right, I'm doing great.
3106
02:29:43.040 --> 02:29:44.280
And he said, but you have to be very careful
3107
02:29:44.319 --> 02:29:46.959
because that's like comparing yourself to people are really slacking.
3108
02:29:47.280 --> 02:29:49.760
So you got a triple down. Humorman, he goes, don't
3109
02:29:49.760 --> 02:29:54.000
come off the gas pedal. So Kelly Stirrett, Yeah, I
3110
02:29:54.040 --> 02:29:57.440
can imagine that many people are thinking, okay, give me
3111
02:29:57.479 --> 02:29:59.680
the program. I know you're anti hacks. I am too,
3112
02:29:59.760 --> 02:30:02.280
But what would that look like? What can they do?
3113
02:30:02.719 --> 02:30:04.959
Start with the bed, so wake up in the morning,
3114
02:30:05.559 --> 02:30:06.200
let's walk through it.
3115
02:30:06.319 --> 02:30:09.319
Yeah, the bed, Do the bed, don't do the bed.
3116
02:30:09.399 --> 02:30:11.840
I would say, start as early as you can with
3117
02:30:11.920 --> 02:30:14.639
some semblance of a discipline act. If you don't want
3118
02:30:14.639 --> 02:30:17.239
to do the bed, drink drink a sixteen ounce glass
3119
02:30:17.239 --> 02:30:18.520
of water in the morning before you have a cup
3120
02:30:18.520 --> 02:30:22.559
of coffee. Not many people enjoy doing that, especially if
3121
02:30:22.559 --> 02:30:24.799
it's not flavored with something. But I tell you what,
3122
02:30:25.479 --> 02:30:28.200
I implemented that, and it's kind of amazing how much
3123
02:30:28.239 --> 02:30:30.600
better you feel when you hydrate a little bit after
3124
02:30:30.600 --> 02:30:33.680
you sleep with your mouth tape. Of course, on your
3125
02:30:33.920 --> 02:30:35.840
sleep metrics, because you have to have a competition with
3126
02:30:35.879 --> 02:30:37.399
your wife on who's winning the sleep score.
3127
02:30:37.719 --> 02:30:38.360
Not a big deal.
3128
02:30:38.760 --> 02:30:42.680
And I hate being prescriptive, and so just broadly, I
3129
02:30:42.920 --> 02:30:46.479
tell people to pick the choice as often as possible.
3130
02:30:46.520 --> 02:30:47.920
That is slightly more difficult.
3131
02:30:48.079 --> 02:30:49.799
And the reason why the bed doesn't work for some
3132
02:30:49.840 --> 02:30:51.959
people is that you have somebody you care about deeply
3133
02:30:52.040 --> 02:30:53.639
still sleeping. On the other side. It maybe your day
3134
02:30:53.680 --> 02:30:55.559
starts at a time where they're not ready to get
3135
02:30:55.559 --> 02:30:56.879
out of bed, right, So you don't want to negatively
3136
02:30:56.879 --> 02:30:58.799
impact somebody else's life, So you can have this.
3137
02:30:59.360 --> 02:31:00.959
I have to do this to get started.
3138
02:31:01.959 --> 02:31:04.719
To me, it's the small stuff that nobody sees that.
3139
02:31:04.680 --> 02:31:06.079
Makes the biggest difference in the world.
3140
02:31:06.159 --> 02:31:07.959
It's the choice to have.
3141
02:31:07.799 --> 02:31:09.239
The water before your coffee.
3142
02:31:09.239 --> 02:31:12.399
It's the choice to the night before you go to
3143
02:31:12.399 --> 02:31:16.479
bed you know you're gonna have a busy day, meal
3144
02:31:16.520 --> 02:31:18.680
prep or if you're going to have a breakfast that
3145
02:31:18.760 --> 02:31:21.120
is other than ready to eat or complicate to do
3146
02:31:21.159 --> 02:31:23.000
all the prep work beforehand, so it makes it, you
3147
02:31:23.000 --> 02:31:24.719
know what I mean. It's just the small things that
3148
02:31:25.399 --> 02:31:28.280
nobody oll Gray posting on Instagram. Look cutting up asparagus
3149
02:31:28.280 --> 02:31:30.040
so I can put into my omelet. But in the
3150
02:31:30.040 --> 02:31:31.920
next morning, when it's ready to go and you actually
3151
02:31:31.920 --> 02:31:36.159
have a healthy breakfast over something far less healthy, the
3152
02:31:36.200 --> 02:31:38.360
difference in your life and the difference in your energy
3153
02:31:38.399 --> 02:31:40.840
and your thought process and all those things continue to build.
3154
02:31:41.920 --> 02:31:45.200
I try to get people or advocate sweat or get
3155
02:31:45.200 --> 02:31:47.159
as close to sweat as you can once a day.
3156
02:31:47.200 --> 02:31:48.879
For some people, that's just getting off the couch and
3157
02:31:48.920 --> 02:31:51.399
walking around, and I get it. I have limited time,
3158
02:31:51.479 --> 02:31:54.719
just like everybody else does. If I push my physical
3159
02:31:54.760 --> 02:31:57.280
exertion until later in the day, I am far more
3160
02:31:57.399 --> 02:31:59.120
likely to push it off until the next day. So
3161
02:31:59.120 --> 02:32:01.200
I try to bring it a little earlier into my day.
3162
02:32:01.479 --> 02:32:03.719
The jiu jitsu training for me usually occurs around midday,
3163
02:32:03.719 --> 02:32:05.479
so that's a nice setup, and that's based off a
3164
02:32:05.479 --> 02:32:07.040
class schedule, not my own creation.
3165
02:32:07.680 --> 02:32:10.239
Are you working out early day as well?
3166
02:32:10.719 --> 02:32:13.280
I will either do jiu jitsu or work out. I
3167
02:32:13.319 --> 02:32:17.120
generally don't do both as I'm getting older as well.
3168
02:32:17.159 --> 02:32:20.280
I see the utility in both and the lack of utility,
3169
02:32:20.280 --> 02:32:22.280
and doing both a very hard in the same day,
3170
02:32:22.639 --> 02:32:25.399
because man, you can augur yourself in with a little
3171
02:32:25.399 --> 02:32:27.159
bit too much. I'll do one of the other. But
3172
02:32:27.440 --> 02:32:29.600
also sweat could be and again this I mean, they
3173
02:32:29.639 --> 02:32:31.399
can get as far out there as you want. It
3174
02:32:31.399 --> 02:32:33.639
could be sitting into sauna for thirty minutes if that's
3175
02:32:33.680 --> 02:32:35.239
all you got. And you don't, you know what I mean,
3176
02:32:35.479 --> 02:32:36.280
figure it out.
3177
02:32:36.600 --> 02:32:38.440
Which in your case is an ice bath?
3178
02:32:39.719 --> 02:32:44.040
Well, yeah, since a sauna to one oh five, which
3179
02:32:44.040 --> 02:32:46.360
is the perfect temperature for a sauna. Easy, I mean
3180
02:32:46.440 --> 02:32:49.680
you could put one in the other you could ice
3181
02:32:49.719 --> 02:32:51.440
bath and so on. How much research has been done
3182
02:32:51.479 --> 02:32:54.799
on that? Andrew not enough? You know, we could create
3183
02:32:54.799 --> 02:32:58.520
the world's first ice bath sauna. I don't think it's gonna.
3184
02:32:58.280 --> 02:33:01.000
Sell called it's not gonna sell. It's not gonna sell.
3185
02:33:01.040 --> 02:33:02.840
Yeah, it would just be at ninety degrees for both
3186
02:33:02.879 --> 02:33:05.120
of them, which I think actually would be perfect and delightful.
3187
02:33:05.719 --> 02:33:12.639
Everybody knows the harder choice versus the easier choice.
3188
02:33:12.680 --> 02:33:18.280
Everybody, to include myself, will look externally and say what
3189
02:33:18.479 --> 02:33:19.319
do I need to do?
3190
02:33:20.319 --> 02:33:21.280
I know what I need to do.
3191
02:33:21.600 --> 02:33:25.319
And so do they they need to do the thing then,
3192
02:33:25.360 --> 02:33:28.040
even if it's microscopic that they want to do less
3193
02:33:28.159 --> 02:33:29.879
more often than they do the thing that they want
3194
02:33:29.920 --> 02:33:32.000
to do more. It's the and I know that it's broad,
3195
02:33:32.000 --> 02:33:34.040
and I know people want more of a prescription than that,
3196
02:33:34.879 --> 02:33:37.959
but that over time is the juice.
3197
02:33:38.440 --> 02:33:40.159
What I like about it so much is that it
3198
02:33:41.440 --> 02:33:45.959
transcends circumstances, and it transcends the kind of moment to moment,
3199
02:33:46.120 --> 02:33:48.879
So there's always an opportunity to do something slightly harder.
3200
02:33:48.920 --> 02:33:50.559
And how you find yourself in that friction point, that
3201
02:33:50.639 --> 02:33:53.440
laziness point of like I'll do this later, or you know,
3202
02:33:53.600 --> 02:33:55.120
like leave that dish in the sink. Can you know
3203
02:33:55.120 --> 02:33:55.639
how many.
3204
02:33:55.520 --> 02:33:57.840
Times you realize, oh shit, I gotta go. You got
3205
02:33:57.840 --> 02:34:00.200
a coffee cup in your hand, finish it off, and
3206
02:34:00.239 --> 02:34:01.920
the sink's right there, and so's the dishwasher.
3207
02:34:02.520 --> 02:34:03.559
This is a perfect example.
3208
02:34:03.719 --> 02:34:05.120
Easy one. Put it in the sink, which you have
3209
02:34:05.159 --> 02:34:07.760
to deal with later, crack the dishwasher over, put the
3210
02:34:07.799 --> 02:34:09.760
thing in there, close it up, and be on your way.
3211
02:34:10.040 --> 02:34:13.399
That is an example to me of a small victory
3212
02:34:13.440 --> 02:34:15.440
that's making the slightly harder choice. Is that in and
3213
02:34:15.440 --> 02:34:18.079
of itself going to change your life. No, but what
3214
02:34:18.159 --> 02:34:21.440
if you make that choice one hundred times in your day.
3215
02:34:21.479 --> 02:34:22.879
You're telling me it's going to look the same as
3216
02:34:22.879 --> 02:34:26.399
it did yesterday. No way in hell, No way in hell.
3217
02:34:27.239 --> 02:34:29.319
Pair that out over a week, over a month, over
3218
02:34:29.399 --> 02:34:31.040
a year, your life's not going to look the same.
3219
02:34:32.159 --> 02:34:36.520
Yeah. I think the social pressure to not do that
3220
02:34:36.559 --> 02:34:40.680
stuff is the new counteracting pressure, and the draw to
3221
02:34:41.000 --> 02:34:43.079
the phone and all these things. But look, it's just
3222
02:34:43.159 --> 02:34:46.559
all more opportunities to grow your interior min sigulatet hortex size.
3223
02:34:46.479 --> 02:34:49.360
Without somebody sticking. I'm assuming a thing in your head
3224
02:34:49.479 --> 02:34:50.440
that doesn't sound for you.
3225
02:34:50.559 --> 02:34:53.440
The funny thing about neurosurgeons is they'll tell you, well, listen,
3226
02:34:53.479 --> 02:34:55.040
after we make the little hole in your skull. They
3227
02:34:55.079 --> 02:34:57.000
literally say this. One of my best friends from childhood
3228
02:34:57.040 --> 02:34:59.520
is the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, and he'll tell you, look,
3229
02:34:59.559 --> 02:35:01.440
you know, we make the whole like we do the thing,
3230
02:35:01.440 --> 02:35:03.639
but then we put a titanium plate in there afterwards,
3231
02:35:03.959 --> 02:35:06.159
and that's actually better than a skull because it can
3232
02:35:06.159 --> 02:35:07.799
protect your brain even better.
3233
02:35:07.840 --> 02:35:09.920
Maybe on that one little tiny area.
3234
02:35:10.120 --> 02:35:12.040
People, Actually, if you look this up there, people who
3235
02:35:12.040 --> 02:35:14.840
have you know these big pieces of titanium plate. Anyway,
3236
02:35:14.879 --> 02:35:18.239
Fortunately the wingsuiting thing you close shop with that early
3237
02:35:18.319 --> 02:35:20.239
enough that you don't need those things, which brings me
3238
02:35:20.319 --> 02:35:24.280
to have the final question, although there might be one more,
3239
02:35:24.600 --> 02:35:26.680
what are you super excited about these days?
3240
02:35:26.840 --> 02:35:29.600
So of all the things I do now, and for
3241
02:35:29.639 --> 02:35:32.360
people who are familiar with me, I own a coffee shop,
3242
02:35:33.440 --> 02:35:36.680
Black Rifle. I own a Black Rifle coffee shop in Kallispell, Montana.
3243
02:35:37.559 --> 02:35:39.200
Very good friends with the founder. He allowed me to
3244
02:35:39.200 --> 02:35:42.520
open up the first one in Montana. UH host a podcast.
3245
02:35:43.040 --> 02:35:46.360
I travel the world with my wife. She's coaching. I
3246
02:35:46.399 --> 02:35:48.760
do not coach jiu jitsu. I participate in jiu jitsu.
3247
02:35:48.799 --> 02:35:50.680
Please don't ask me for jiu jitsu advice because I'm
3248
02:35:50.719 --> 02:35:52.040
going to tell you I'm not a coach. Go talk
3249
02:35:52.040 --> 02:35:54.520
to someone who does this professional role with her. Yes,
3250
02:35:55.440 --> 02:35:58.280
if you can beat your spouse, don't. That's going to
3251
02:35:58.319 --> 02:36:00.440
save people a lot of pain and suffering.
3252
02:36:00.520 --> 02:36:02.159
Right there, it's not worth it.
3253
02:36:02.799 --> 02:36:05.840
I have beat my wife one time. And for clarity,
3254
02:36:06.120 --> 02:36:08.840
before somebody clips this, I am talking in the context
3255
02:36:08.879 --> 02:36:12.680
of a jiu jitsu. As that was coming out, I'm like,
3256
02:36:12.799 --> 02:36:19.600
oh no, in a jiu Jitsu consensual jiu Jitsu exchange.
3257
02:36:19.639 --> 02:36:26.239
I have submitted my wife one time in the visual
3258
02:36:26.760 --> 02:36:31.719
of our eye contact. I should have realized before finishing
3259
02:36:31.719 --> 02:36:34.600
the submission what the potential long term consequences would be.
3260
02:36:35.639 --> 02:36:38.680
I did not. And uh, let me be the test
3261
02:36:38.719 --> 02:36:41.280
subject for anybody else out there who trains with their
3262
02:36:41.280 --> 02:36:45.040
significant other. Just drill, just drill, let them assume a
3263
02:36:45.040 --> 02:36:49.399
dominant position, and if they beat you, great, take my
3264
02:36:49.440 --> 02:36:53.440
advice for that. So jiu Jitsu Coffee podcast. I guess
3265
02:36:53.479 --> 02:36:55.280
I can say I'm an author now. I have no
3266
02:36:55.360 --> 02:36:57.159
plans for a second book. I had no plans for
3267
02:36:57.159 --> 02:37:01.159
a fushbook. But here we are all all of those things.
3268
02:37:01.840 --> 02:37:03.959
If you had given me an unlimited amount of time
3269
02:37:04.360 --> 02:37:07.440
for a month when I was getting out of the
3270
02:37:07.479 --> 02:37:12.280
seale teams, and had said, here's a bunch of legal paperwork,
3271
02:37:12.959 --> 02:37:15.000
like legal notebooks and a pen as many as you want,
3272
02:37:15.079 --> 02:37:18.120
write down anything that you think you could possibly be
3273
02:37:18.159 --> 02:37:20.959
doing when you get out, not a single thing that
3274
02:37:21.040 --> 02:37:22.680
I am doing right now would have been on that list.
3275
02:37:22.959 --> 02:37:25.520
Couldn't even have fathomed it. I worked for a strength
3276
02:37:25.559 --> 02:37:28.399
and conditioning company for a while. In doing that, I
3277
02:37:28.399 --> 02:37:30.719
started being the pilot for the owner of that company,
3278
02:37:30.760 --> 02:37:33.120
which led me to doing part one thirty five charter
3279
02:37:33.440 --> 02:37:36.559
operations fly in jets, which I did that for a
3280
02:37:36.600 --> 02:37:39.000
little bit, and then I was a professional skyniver and
3281
02:37:39.040 --> 02:37:41.600
base jumper for years. I got into the public speaking world,
3282
02:37:42.639 --> 02:37:45.959
moved to Montana, then got into the coffee shop stuff,
3283
02:37:46.000 --> 02:37:49.200
and I lost complete and utter sense of what the
3284
02:37:49.200 --> 02:37:51.200
hell I wanted to do with my life somewhere in
3285
02:37:51.280 --> 02:37:55.520
that mix. And what I'm actually the most excited about
3286
02:37:55.559 --> 02:37:59.360
now is that I have absolutely no idea what I
3287
02:37:59.399 --> 02:38:02.920
want to do now next. And I am old enough
3288
02:38:03.879 --> 02:38:07.600
to realize that I don't have to like white knuckle
3289
02:38:07.600 --> 02:38:11.280
it that it's going to present itself, because that has
3290
02:38:11.920 --> 02:38:15.040
been the case in my life up to this point.
3291
02:38:15.520 --> 02:38:18.520
So you know, money's a great thing. I only want
3292
02:38:18.559 --> 02:38:20.440
to make enough money so I can say no to things.
3293
02:38:20.440 --> 02:38:24.159
That's my favorite most powerful word. Yes, the addition in subtraction.
3294
02:38:24.360 --> 02:38:26.920
It is the older I get, subtraction is way more powerful.
3295
02:38:27.040 --> 02:38:28.760
Are you good at saying no? No?
3296
02:38:31.200 --> 02:38:34.040
It can be hard. It depends because if the question
3297
02:38:34.120 --> 02:38:37.520
comes from a pure business aspect, my litmus test is
3298
02:38:37.559 --> 02:38:39.079
do I naturally do this in my life?
3299
02:38:39.120 --> 02:38:42.559
And would I actually enjoy this regardless of the check.
3300
02:38:42.600 --> 02:38:44.360
If either of those is no, it's an easy no.
3301
02:38:45.159 --> 02:38:48.840
Tougher ones are a friend's family, Hey do you want
3302
02:38:48.840 --> 02:38:50.440
to do this? That gets a little bit tougher because
3303
02:38:50.479 --> 02:38:52.399
it's a little bit of a mix of personal and professional.
3304
02:38:53.000 --> 02:38:56.079
But I am at a place where I know that
3305
02:38:56.200 --> 02:38:59.079
I have the tools that I will be able to
3306
02:38:59.159 --> 02:39:03.200
sort whatever comes my way, and by relaxing a little
3307
02:39:03.200 --> 02:39:06.920
bit and white knuckling less and not having a specific
3308
02:39:07.000 --> 02:39:09.920
target that I'm throwing darts at, it has actually provided
3309
02:39:09.959 --> 02:39:16.479
more opportunities for me than anything else. So yeah, I
3310
02:39:17.719 --> 02:39:21.440
wish I could give you a specific answer, but truly,
3311
02:39:21.840 --> 02:39:24.680
the realization that I know I'm prepared for whatever comes
3312
02:39:24.719 --> 02:39:27.319
next is actually what I'm the most excited about.
3313
02:39:28.000 --> 02:39:32.079
Very cool. I can sense your excitement about the uncertainty
3314
02:39:32.079 --> 02:39:35.559
about exactly what it will be, but the certainty that
3315
02:39:35.600 --> 02:39:38.440
you've got a process that's now well worked out within you,
3316
02:39:38.559 --> 02:39:40.440
that just emerges and that it's going to happen.
3317
02:39:40.920 --> 02:39:42.319
You know, when I first got out the military, it
3318
02:39:42.360 --> 02:39:44.479
was almost crisis mode. I was working for this strength
3319
02:39:44.479 --> 02:39:46.879
and conditioning company as my initial bridge out, and I'd
3320
02:39:46.920 --> 02:39:49.559
been doing so on the weekends, moonlighting so I had
3321
02:39:49.600 --> 02:39:53.239
from an economic off ramp. I went from making what
3322
02:39:53.280 --> 02:39:54.760
I was making the military to what I was making
3323
02:39:54.799 --> 02:39:57.040
for that company. There was a slight increase as opposed
3324
02:39:57.040 --> 02:40:00.879
to a decrease, which is great. So that ended sixty
3325
02:40:01.000 --> 02:40:04.559
months later when I quit without having another jobs lined
3326
02:40:04.639 --> 02:40:06.760
up whatsoever, and then went into the garage and started
3327
02:40:06.760 --> 02:40:09.360
selling things on Craigslist, which is a really good way
3328
02:40:09.360 --> 02:40:10.639
to meet really weird people.
3329
02:40:10.639 --> 02:40:12.280
If you haven't tried it, give it a go.
3330
02:40:13.479 --> 02:40:16.200
Maybe meet them away from your house, you know, them
3331
02:40:16.280 --> 02:40:21.600
down the street somewhere. But it was for years. Am
3332
02:40:21.639 --> 02:40:23.079
I going to have enough money to pay the bills?
3333
02:40:23.120 --> 02:40:25.200
Am I going to have enough money for the mortgage?
3334
02:40:25.319 --> 02:40:27.399
What am I going to do? What am I going
3335
02:40:27.479 --> 02:40:31.239
to do? If somebody doesn't reach out with an opportunity built,
3336
02:40:32.120 --> 02:40:33.600
I would say, I mean, I was going to say
3337
02:40:33.600 --> 02:40:36.000
a tool, a toolkit, or a skill set. But it's
3338
02:40:36.040 --> 02:40:39.120
more a mentality than anything to realize that you can
3339
02:40:39.120 --> 02:40:41.040
solve what does come out and you can kind of
3340
02:40:41.040 --> 02:40:43.200
build on your you know, your foundation of the work
3341
02:40:43.200 --> 02:40:44.920
that you have done, and that can slowly build out
3342
02:40:44.920 --> 02:40:47.280
over time. It takes time. This is not something that
3343
02:40:47.319 --> 02:40:48.600
happened in a matter of one year.
3344
02:40:48.639 --> 02:40:50.440
This is well over a decade.
3345
02:40:50.120 --> 02:40:53.760
At this point, but getting out of that survival mode
3346
02:40:54.719 --> 02:40:59.239
and just having the ability to assess opportunities from a
3347
02:40:59.239 --> 02:41:01.719
place of do I want to do this, as opposed
3348
02:41:01.760 --> 02:41:05.239
to a place of I feel like I have to. Man,
3349
02:41:05.479 --> 02:41:07.280
you want to talk about a sleep score difference.
3350
02:41:07.959 --> 02:41:14.440
Totally, can relate, can relate. Oh, it's a world apart. Yeah,
3351
02:41:14.520 --> 02:41:15.760
and you've earned it, but it.
3352
02:41:15.680 --> 02:41:18.159
Takes time, and that's what people don't want to see.
3353
02:41:18.159 --> 02:41:22.920
It's the overnight ten year success, which again I'm sure
3354
02:41:22.959 --> 02:41:24.520
you could point to somebody who has that.
3355
02:41:25.360 --> 02:41:29.079
Does that scale broadly and it doesn't last. I don't
3356
02:41:29.079 --> 02:41:30.840
know anyone that came up quick and it just had
3357
02:41:30.959 --> 02:41:32.840
like a step function where it's still going.
3358
02:41:33.360 --> 02:41:36.239
Or continued on the vertical forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And
3359
02:41:36.280 --> 02:41:37.159
again it's an outlier.
3360
02:41:37.239 --> 02:41:37.520
Cool.
3361
02:41:37.600 --> 02:41:39.680
Totally get it, and two thumbs up for that person.
3362
02:41:40.319 --> 02:41:42.840
But for everybody who thinks they're going to replicate that,
3363
02:41:43.280 --> 02:41:47.360
even by doing exactly the same things, hasn't been my experience.
3364
02:41:48.000 --> 02:41:52.600
Last question, you talk about the price of success and
3365
02:41:53.000 --> 02:41:56.280
just acknowledging it. I wouldn't want to scare anyone out
3366
02:41:56.360 --> 02:41:59.239
of going after their dreams. I would that's what I'm
3367
02:41:59.239 --> 02:42:03.000
here for, either short term or long term dreams, because
3368
02:42:03.000 --> 02:42:05.040
I'm like a you know, pick the target and go
3369
02:42:05.120 --> 02:42:07.959
after it. And you know, you know, I think five
3370
02:42:08.040 --> 02:42:12.040
year five year increments are really good. That's anyway, that's
3371
02:42:12.079 --> 02:42:15.879
just my bias, But there is a price. Yeah. I
3372
02:42:15.879 --> 02:42:17.639
could list off the number of things I mis or
3373
02:42:17.680 --> 02:42:21.079
didn't do or failed or whatever. You certainly talk about
3374
02:42:21.079 --> 02:42:24.000
some of those, and they can go from you know,
3375
02:42:24.280 --> 02:42:26.559
the many small things that one can miss out on
3376
02:42:26.600 --> 02:42:29.479
that it you know, in total turn out to be
3377
02:42:29.520 --> 02:42:32.239
bigger things and then they are like key moments that
3378
02:42:32.559 --> 02:42:35.399
you know, people miss And maybe let's just get your
3379
02:42:35.399 --> 02:42:39.440
thoughts on gauging the price of success. Should people have
3380
02:42:39.479 --> 02:42:43.079
a sense of what their line is before they you know,
3381
02:42:43.159 --> 02:42:46.000
jump into the you know, the line of pursuit for
3382
02:42:46.040 --> 02:42:48.040
their goal or do you think it's just something that
3383
02:42:48.239 --> 02:42:49.760
you know, you just got to learn by experience.
3384
02:42:50.920 --> 02:42:53.120
I think until you learn through at least a little
3385
02:42:53.159 --> 02:42:55.559
bit of experience, it's hard to gauge where your line
3386
02:42:55.600 --> 02:42:58.760
is because for a while, you just don't know what
3387
02:42:58.840 --> 02:43:01.920
you don't know. And maybe we live in a world
3388
02:43:01.920 --> 02:43:05.120
where information is more accessible and so people could figure
3389
02:43:05.120 --> 02:43:07.120
it out, like my middle son as an example. It
3390
02:43:07.159 --> 02:43:10.920
was fascinating watching my kids use the Internet to bridge
3391
02:43:10.959 --> 02:43:11.760
gaps and knowledge.
3392
02:43:12.440 --> 02:43:13.000
Going on to you.
3393
02:43:13.159 --> 02:43:15.639
My middle son specifically started two businesses when he was
3394
02:43:16.280 --> 02:43:20.280
in high school. He started a window cleaning company called
3395
02:43:20.319 --> 02:43:24.079
Peeping Tom's Windows, which, by the way, I came up
3396
02:43:24.120 --> 02:43:26.200
with both of these names. That was the only marketing
3397
02:43:26.280 --> 02:43:29.360
help I had. And he had a Christmas light company
3398
02:43:29.360 --> 02:43:31.319
that was called Epstein's Lights because they're not going to
3399
02:43:31.360 --> 02:43:34.920
hang themselves right again, I came up with the names.
3400
02:43:34.959 --> 02:43:37.639
He had to go door to door, but everything to
3401
02:43:37.760 --> 02:43:40.479
include LLC's equipment.
3402
02:43:40.680 --> 02:43:41.360
It's YouTube.
3403
02:43:41.440 --> 02:43:44.719
How do you how do you start an LLC? How
3404
02:43:44.760 --> 02:43:47.719
do you get a business license? How do you get
3405
02:43:47.760 --> 02:43:52.479
insurance for a window cleaning company? So I think when
3406
02:43:52.520 --> 02:43:54.079
you and I were growing up, you were kind of
3407
02:43:54.079 --> 02:43:56.239
out there smacking your head against the wall a little
3408
02:43:56.239 --> 02:43:58.920
bit unless you could find somebody who was exactly in
3409
02:43:58.959 --> 02:44:01.920
that profession. So when I was in high school wanting
3410
02:44:01.920 --> 02:44:04.000
to be a team guy, I didn't know any team guys.
3411
02:44:04.559 --> 02:44:07.559
I mean, I knew Charlie Sheen, but who didn'ts right
3412
02:44:07.719 --> 02:44:11.440
documentary movie who probably inspired thousands of people to join
3413
02:44:11.440 --> 02:44:13.959
the military, and then they get there like, oh this
3414
02:44:14.079 --> 02:44:16.680
is all made up, damn it, except for the opening
3415
02:44:16.719 --> 02:44:19.639
scene where he shitfaced wakes up in the ocean relatively accurate.
3416
02:44:20.319 --> 02:44:22.360
Beyond that, though, don't take that movie seriously. You're not
3417
02:44:22.399 --> 02:44:24.360
jumping off your jeep over the bridge and you know
3418
02:44:24.719 --> 02:44:29.120
Chesapeake to get to work. I didn't actually run into
3419
02:44:29.159 --> 02:44:32.360
a seal to get beta from until I was in
3420
02:44:32.399 --> 02:44:35.799
the military, so I didn't even have access to that.
3421
02:44:36.120 --> 02:44:37.479
There are I mean, I saw this when I was
3422
02:44:37.479 --> 02:44:40.559
an instructor. There are websites that list every single day
3423
02:44:40.600 --> 02:44:43.639
of training with relative accuracy to everything you're going to
3424
02:44:43.719 --> 02:44:48.440
do that day, which actually the instructors were pissed about.
3425
02:44:48.559 --> 02:44:50.639
And then I realized, oh, that's a good thing that plays.
3426
02:44:50.399 --> 02:44:53.000
To our favor because you were an instructor.
3427
02:44:53.280 --> 02:44:56.600
I was an instructor. You can then remind them how
3428
02:44:56.680 --> 02:44:59.000
much time they have left. You can play the time
3429
02:44:59.079 --> 02:45:02.200
game in reverse with them. But again, growing up, I
3430
02:45:04.120 --> 02:45:07.559
didn't have a real good place to get this information
3431
02:45:07.639 --> 02:45:09.719
where my kids do now. So I think that there's
3432
02:45:09.760 --> 02:45:13.520
an opportunity if you smartly use these tools that you
3433
02:45:13.520 --> 02:45:15.479
can maybe learn a little bit more and at least
3434
02:45:15.559 --> 02:45:19.000
get access to some of the mistakes, or just the
3435
02:45:19.319 --> 02:45:21.440
mistakes that you would naturally make because you just didn't know.
3436
02:45:21.600 --> 02:45:23.319
Like you probably could do a window cleaning business, but
3437
02:45:23.360 --> 02:45:25.319
you might get in trouble from the city because a
3438
02:45:25.399 --> 02:45:26.719
year into it you didn't realize you need to have
3439
02:45:26.760 --> 02:45:28.879
a business license. Like, okay, you could skip that because
3440
02:45:28.879 --> 02:45:30.719
you could go to the internet and find out what
3441
02:45:30.760 --> 02:45:36.399
you need and the requirements and all that stuff. I
3442
02:45:36.520 --> 02:45:40.000
much like you, I don't ever want to tell people
3443
02:45:40.079 --> 02:45:42.879
that they shouldn't pursue their goals, both short term and
3444
02:45:43.000 --> 02:45:47.719
long term. But I am now of the opinion, as
3445
02:45:47.760 --> 02:45:52.159
I get older, that I would rather have people arrive
3446
02:45:52.440 --> 02:45:57.479
a little bit under this massive lifetime goal and be
3447
02:45:57.559 --> 02:46:02.879
a really happy, really fulfilled, old, really enriched person. Then
3448
02:46:02.920 --> 02:46:07.639
somebody who carves out everything from their life, life experiences,
3449
02:46:07.959 --> 02:46:12.120
social experiences, family experiences, alidays.
3450
02:46:11.959 --> 02:46:14.360
And they get exactly what it is.
3451
02:46:14.280 --> 02:46:17.600
That they wanted and they have nothing. Because I think
3452
02:46:17.639 --> 02:46:20.760
both you and I know people who from the outside,
3453
02:46:21.040 --> 02:46:25.360
oh my god, the money, the fame, that fill in
3454
02:46:25.399 --> 02:46:28.959
the blank. They're not that happy, but they have everything
3455
02:46:29.000 --> 02:46:33.159
that they wanted and they have nothing that sounds like hell.
3456
02:46:34.200 --> 02:46:36.000
I'd rather have people fall a little bit short of
3457
02:46:36.000 --> 02:46:39.120
that and be really happy about where they are. But
3458
02:46:40.120 --> 02:46:41.559
it's tough. I mean, how can you be.
3459
02:46:41.440 --> 02:46:42.239
Prescripted with that?
3460
02:46:42.639 --> 02:46:45.479
How do you say aim for your goal Andrew, but
3461
02:46:45.639 --> 02:46:48.680
just a little bit short. That's a shitty fortune cookie.
3462
02:46:48.920 --> 02:46:53.000
You know, try hard, but leave some for yourself.
3463
02:46:54.159 --> 02:46:58.559
It is a tough one. And if people at sort
3464
02:46:58.600 --> 02:47:01.399
of top one percent of their career were willing to
3465
02:47:01.959 --> 02:47:04.440
open the veil on their lives and show what you know,
3466
02:47:04.520 --> 02:47:06.879
Christmas Day looks like for them, or what you know
3467
02:47:06.920 --> 02:47:09.239
New Year's Day looks like for them, or a typical
3468
02:47:09.920 --> 02:47:12.520
you know, Friday evening looks like for them, Yeah, you
3469
02:47:12.559 --> 02:47:15.440
know a lot of people would probably rethink their goals.
3470
02:47:15.840 --> 02:47:17.559
I think it would shock a lot of people.
3471
02:47:18.959 --> 02:47:22.319
And again I don't consider the people we're talking about.
3472
02:47:22.360 --> 02:47:24.920
I mean, these are publicly facing people. You could look
3473
02:47:24.959 --> 02:47:29.159
at them and think that it's perfection. And we have
3474
02:47:29.239 --> 02:47:31.319
a little bit of social circle overlap. And I've rubbed
3475
02:47:31.319 --> 02:47:34.319
elbows with a couple of these people and kind of
3476
02:47:34.399 --> 02:47:38.319
leave with the perception of, man, you have everything, but
3477
02:47:38.399 --> 02:47:41.079
at what cost. I just don't think.
3478
02:47:40.959 --> 02:47:44.000
It's worth it. Yeah. I don't think it's worth it either.
3479
02:47:44.079 --> 02:47:46.040
And it sort of brings us to elements of our
3480
02:47:46.280 --> 02:47:49.040
prior conversation about when things really, you know, drop into
3481
02:47:49.040 --> 02:47:51.079
the trench. For certain people who are you know, at
3482
02:47:51.159 --> 02:47:54.520
least from the outside, doing incredible in their professions or
3483
02:47:54.559 --> 02:47:57.559
their craft, I think there is a place to find
3484
02:47:57.719 --> 02:48:01.120
balance on the whole. Maybe it's like first fifty years,
3485
02:48:01.159 --> 02:48:04.719
you just you know, I'm talking to myself, right, You
3486
02:48:04.760 --> 02:48:06.319
just grind it out and then you go, okay, cool,
3487
02:48:06.440 --> 02:48:08.319
like the you know, someone said it. I didn't say this.
3488
02:48:08.360 --> 02:48:10.079
I think it was an eval that said this, Like you,
3489
02:48:10.079 --> 02:48:12.000
you know, one of the reasons to win the game
3490
02:48:12.079 --> 02:48:14.079
is so you can stop playing the game. So you
3491
02:48:14.120 --> 02:48:16.319
have to sort of define what winning the game is.
3492
02:48:16.399 --> 02:48:19.840
And that's different for different things. But that portion of
3493
02:48:19.879 --> 02:48:21.159
your book really got me thinking.
3494
02:48:21.639 --> 02:48:25.799
But money is an interesting aspect. More seems to be
3495
02:48:25.840 --> 02:48:29.200
the number people are after more than a number, and
3496
02:48:29.280 --> 02:48:31.360
I don't know what that looks like. Because if your
3497
02:48:31.440 --> 02:48:34.600
number is never enough and you're constantly seeking and you
3498
02:48:34.719 --> 02:48:37.600
never get to enjoy what you have via an experience
3499
02:48:37.639 --> 02:48:39.159
as opposed to a thing that you're not going to
3500
02:48:39.200 --> 02:48:42.879
get to take with you anyway, doesn't more end up
3501
02:48:43.120 --> 02:48:43.959
netting you less?
3502
02:48:44.760 --> 02:48:47.159
Yeah, Morgan halsls A. He has a couple of really
3503
02:48:47.200 --> 02:48:50.719
good books. I actually like the second one more. They're
3504
02:48:50.719 --> 02:48:52.520
both excellent, but at the second one is called The
3505
02:48:52.639 --> 02:48:55.159
Art of Spending Money, which sounds like, you know, you're
3506
02:48:55.200 --> 02:48:56.920
a rich guy telling people how to spend their money.
3507
02:48:57.280 --> 02:49:02.200
Very interesting book, mostly psychological, how to really assess what's
3508
02:49:02.520 --> 02:49:04.280
what things are worth to you, both in terms of
3509
02:49:04.280 --> 02:49:06.200
what it takes to get the resources and then when
3510
02:49:06.239 --> 02:49:09.559
to use them. And I mean, I will say, you know,
3511
02:49:09.639 --> 02:49:11.799
all the there's a lot of data saying that you know,
3512
02:49:12.000 --> 02:49:13.719
you know, past it used to be like seventy thousand
3513
02:49:13.719 --> 02:49:15.719
dollars a year. Now I think it's scaled up with inflation.
3514
02:49:15.840 --> 02:49:18.479
You know, past a certain amount of money, people aren't happier.
3515
02:49:18.840 --> 02:49:22.239
I disagree. I actually think that money cannot buy happiness,
3516
02:49:22.280 --> 02:49:26.000
but it certainly can buffer certain kinds of stress. I agree,
3517
02:49:26.200 --> 02:49:28.840
not all forms. But I know some very wealthy people
3518
02:49:28.840 --> 02:49:30.799
that used to fund my lab for studies on optic
3519
02:49:30.840 --> 02:49:34.159
nerve repair who had kids with diseases that were blinding disease.
3520
02:49:34.200 --> 02:49:36.799
I'll tell you you have a billions of dollars in
3521
02:49:36.840 --> 02:49:42.120
the bank, and they're putting money to try and heal
3522
02:49:42.159 --> 02:49:46.159
that pain and solve the problem fortunately for their kid.
3523
02:49:46.239 --> 02:49:48.600
And many others. That's the fortunately part is that they're
3524
02:49:48.680 --> 02:49:52.920
willing to do that. But money can solve certain problems,
3525
02:49:52.959 --> 02:49:56.760
not others. But it can buffer stress, certain forms of stress,
3526
02:49:57.200 --> 02:50:00.520
and I think that's not that's just the honest true. Yeah,
3527
02:50:00.840 --> 02:50:03.120
it can't buy connection of a real kind, and it
3528
02:50:03.159 --> 02:50:04.159
can undermine I.
3529
02:50:04.120 --> 02:50:05.840
Was going to say, at a certain level of money,
3530
02:50:06.360 --> 02:50:09.319
I've seen it undermine the connection because the person becomes
3531
02:50:09.360 --> 02:50:11.040
wary of why does this person want to have a
3532
02:50:11.040 --> 02:50:13.719
connection with me in the first place. And they didn't
3533
02:50:13.760 --> 02:50:17.239
come that way. They got taken advantage of enough times
3534
02:50:17.239 --> 02:50:18.920
that they developed that thought process.
3535
02:50:19.239 --> 02:50:21.280
You know. It's a whole other conversation. But money is
3536
02:50:21.280 --> 02:50:23.159
a certain form of energy, and when people have a
3537
02:50:23.200 --> 02:50:26.200
lot of it, it tends to attract people who want
3538
02:50:26.239 --> 02:50:28.360
to I don't want to say steal, but they feel
3539
02:50:28.360 --> 02:50:31.159
like they're entitled to some of that energy. At the
3540
02:50:31.280 --> 02:50:33.760
end of the day, I think if everyone could define
3541
02:50:34.120 --> 02:50:37.159
what enough for themselves is, maybe with that includes a
3542
02:50:37.159 --> 02:50:39.239
buffer because they grew up with a lot of financial
3543
02:50:39.239 --> 02:50:41.920
fear or something, they need enough plus a little bit
3544
02:50:41.920 --> 02:50:44.399
more just in case kind of thing. I know people
3545
02:50:44.479 --> 02:50:47.559
like that past that. I don't think there's anything more
3546
02:50:47.639 --> 02:50:50.479
to be gained in terms of well being or life experiences.
3547
02:50:50.559 --> 02:50:51.440
I do agree with the stress.
3548
02:50:51.479 --> 02:50:53.440
I mean, if you can get to a place where
3549
02:50:53.479 --> 02:50:57.760
you could outsource food or medial tasks, that will give
3550
02:50:57.760 --> 02:50:59.440
you more time to do the things that you are
3551
02:50:59.520 --> 02:51:04.000
enriched by. Yes, one can help with that. But you
3552
02:51:04.040 --> 02:51:07.040
know the example, you said, you know a billionaire who
3553
02:51:07.079 --> 02:51:12.280
probably feels helpless. What you know, Like those two things
3554
02:51:12.319 --> 02:51:14.639
shouldn't go together in a sentence, but that's the reality.
3555
02:51:14.879 --> 02:51:16.479
No amount of money is going to make that person
3556
02:51:16.520 --> 02:51:18.959
not feel helpless, especially when they're touched by that particular
3557
02:51:19.000 --> 02:51:22.000
situation in their life. May not be the end all
3558
02:51:22.040 --> 02:51:23.200
bill that people think it is.
3559
02:51:23.840 --> 02:51:27.079
Well, Andy loved the book. I know I've said that
3560
02:51:27.120 --> 02:51:29.840
many times, so I don't wanted diminish from that statement
3561
02:51:29.879 --> 02:51:31.959
by saying it too many times. But it's an awesome book.
3562
02:51:32.040 --> 02:51:34.639
Thank You really has changed my life for the better.
3563
02:51:34.760 --> 02:51:36.479
I've been recommending it like crazy. I was in New
3564
02:51:36.559 --> 02:51:39.319
York last week giving a talk to this group raising
3565
02:51:39.360 --> 02:51:43.079
money for a different laboratory, and they said, you know,
3566
02:51:43.079 --> 02:51:46.159
what's what's the difference between people who are like eleventh
3567
02:51:46.200 --> 02:51:49.200
to one hundredth in their profession versus the top ten
3568
02:51:49.239 --> 02:51:50.879
and I said, well, so much of it is about
3569
02:51:50.879 --> 02:51:52.760
how they allocate their energy. And I found this tool
3570
02:51:52.799 --> 02:51:56.440
recently in you know, Andy's book, And you know, I've
3571
02:51:56.479 --> 02:51:58.639
been talking about the book like crazy because of the
3572
02:51:58.719 --> 02:52:01.959
practical value that it has, and also the potency of
3573
02:52:02.520 --> 02:52:06.079
the true life examples that you give that really extend
3574
02:52:06.159 --> 02:52:08.079
to everybody. I know. We talked a lot about teams
3575
02:52:08.120 --> 02:52:11.680
and guys and stuff, and everything in there really is
3576
02:52:11.719 --> 02:52:16.120
a benefit. I say this with certainty to men, women, boys, girls,
3577
02:52:16.159 --> 02:52:19.479
young and old. So much value there. You're clearly get
3578
02:52:19.520 --> 02:52:22.280
after it kind of person. You're also clearly very reflective,
3579
02:52:22.760 --> 02:52:26.319
and whatever friction it took to write portions or that
3580
02:52:26.360 --> 02:52:28.079
book can get it out there. I'm just very grateful
3581
02:52:28.120 --> 02:52:31.479
that you did. It's a real asset, and I'm also
3582
02:52:31.600 --> 02:52:34.079
very grateful you came here today to share.
3583
02:52:34.040 --> 02:52:35.079
We finally linked up, and.
3584
02:52:35.000 --> 02:52:37.360
We finally linked up. I have to say Montana is
3585
02:52:37.399 --> 02:52:40.280
my favorite state in the entire country, and maybe my
3586
02:52:40.360 --> 02:52:42.360
favorite place in the entire world. Many years ago I
3587
02:52:42.399 --> 02:52:44.920
dreamed of living there, and I love hiking in Glacier.
3588
02:52:44.920 --> 02:52:47.239
And yes, they do have real bears. They're not like
3589
02:52:47.280 --> 02:52:49.440
in the Yosemite where they have bears, but not the
3590
02:52:49.520 --> 02:52:51.280
kind of bears that will hunt you. So where your
3591
02:52:51.280 --> 02:52:52.959
bear bell? Story for another time.
3592
02:52:53.319 --> 02:52:54.760
I actually got somebody not too long.
3593
02:52:54.959 --> 02:52:57.479
Oh really? Yeah? And Glacier, Yeah, where your bear bell?
3594
02:52:58.719 --> 02:53:02.079
Hang your food? Where are your bear? Well? But uh, listen, man,
3595
02:53:02.239 --> 02:53:04.920
you're doing amazing work, and we'll put links to all
3596
02:53:04.959 --> 02:53:07.719
the things mentioned. But thanks so much, let's do it again.
3597
02:53:07.920 --> 02:53:08.239
Thank you.
3598
02:53:08.399 --> 02:53:09.079
I appreciate it.
3599
02:53:09.760 --> 02:53:12.399
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Andy Stump.
3600
02:53:12.920 --> 02:53:15.760
To find links to his book Drownproof, which again I
3601
02:53:15.879 --> 02:53:19.239
highly recommend everybody read or listen to, as well as
3602
02:53:19.239 --> 02:53:21.360
to find links to his work and to his podcast,
3603
02:53:21.639 --> 02:53:23.920
please see the links in the show note caption. If
3604
02:53:23.959 --> 02:53:26.719
you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe
3605
02:53:26.719 --> 02:53:29.360
to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific, zero cost way
3606
02:53:29.399 --> 02:53:32.479
to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by
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02:53:32.479 --> 02:53:35.319
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3608
02:53:35.399 --> 02:53:37.399
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02:53:37.399 --> 02:53:39.760
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3610
02:53:39.799 --> 02:53:42.879
us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check
3611
02:53:42.879 --> 02:53:45.760
out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
3612
02:53:46.040 --> 02:53:48.920
That's the best way to support this podcast. If you
3613
02:53:48.920 --> 02:53:51.479
have questions for me or comments about the podcast or
3614
02:53:51.520 --> 02:53:53.440
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3615
02:53:53.479 --> 02:53:56.040
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3616
02:53:56.120 --> 02:53:59.040
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3617
02:53:59.079 --> 02:54:01.399
if you're not already following me on social media, I
3618
02:54:01.399 --> 02:54:05.159
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02:54:05.399 --> 02:54:09.120
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3620
02:54:09.200 --> 02:54:11.799
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3621
02:54:11.840 --> 02:54:14.159
overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but
3622
02:54:14.239 --> 02:54:16.520
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3623
02:54:16.600 --> 02:54:20.040
Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social
3624
02:54:20.040 --> 02:54:22.760
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02:54:22.799 --> 02:54:25.959
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3626
02:54:26.000 --> 02:54:29.239
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3627
02:54:29.239 --> 02:54:31.520
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3628
02:54:31.559 --> 02:54:34.719
three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize
3629
02:54:34.719 --> 02:54:38.040
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3630
02:54:38.120 --> 02:54:41.399
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02:54:41.479 --> 02:54:44.959
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3632
02:54:45.239 --> 02:54:47.399
You simply go to Hubermanlab dot com go to the
3633
02:54:47.440 --> 02:54:49.440
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3634
02:54:49.520 --> 02:54:52.360
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3635
02:54:52.360 --> 02:54:55.040
we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you
3636
02:54:55.079 --> 02:54:58.280
once again for joining me for today's discussion with Andy Stump.
3637
02:54:58.760 --> 02:55:01.000
And last, but certainly not at least, thank you for
3638
02:55:01.079 --> 02:55:10.520
your interest in science. M