Fuld transskription af S12E10: Why Attend Training…Even as an Instructor? with Charlie Perez

00:04:50.151 Yeah. I think today, like we were going to talk about, you know, 00:04:50.351 --> 00:04:53.271 why attend training, even as an instructor. 00:04:53.711 --> 00:04:58.911 And I think that it's important that we kind of set the ground rules of like, 00:04:59.051 --> 00:05:00.771 what really is an instructor? 00:05:00.951 --> 00:05:03.411 So what's your opinion on what an instructor is? 00:05:03.411 --> 00:05:07.651 Well, I like, you're really leaning into that co-host responsibility now by 00:05:07.651 --> 00:05:09.611 asking the questions, man. Yeah. 00:05:10.371 --> 00:05:17.231 I like it. So, you know, and in all transparency, you and I were discussing 00:05:17.231 --> 00:05:21.651 this a little bit before show and it is a very valid question. 00:05:22.971 --> 00:05:26.231 And, you know, because a lot of people, they may even see the title of this 00:05:26.231 --> 00:05:27.911 episode and think, well, I'm not an instructor, you know. 00:05:28.931 --> 00:05:34.351 So I'd like to think we're going to talk about attending training today from 00:05:34.351 --> 00:05:36.631 a perspective that I think can apply to everybody. 00:05:37.191 --> 00:05:39.991 But who's an instructor? It's a very fair question. 00:05:40.551 --> 00:05:45.651 I think traditionally speaking, people are like, well, if I got a NRA instructor 00:05:45.651 --> 00:05:50.771 certificate or something from another training organization or law enforcement 00:05:50.771 --> 00:05:54.271 or something like that, then, okay, that must make me an instructor. 00:05:54.271 --> 00:05:58.951 And certainly, I guess that technically qualifies someone as an instructor in 00:05:58.951 --> 00:06:02.611 terms of having the requisite certificate or whatever. 00:06:03.964 --> 00:06:09.504 Even that alone doesn't necessarily make an instructor or at least a quality instructor. 00:06:10.444 --> 00:06:14.024 Correct. And so just because you have a certificate does not mean that, 00:06:14.104 --> 00:06:16.524 you know, you're, you're very good at doing that. 00:06:16.544 --> 00:06:19.464 And I'm not speaking about anyone for, you know, in particular here, 00:06:19.524 --> 00:06:23.324 but that that's just a fact, but that's also true of, you know, 00:06:23.484 --> 00:06:27.244 you could say a teacher at, you know, my kids elementary school, 00:06:27.264 --> 00:06:29.944 I know teachers or I've known teachers. 00:06:29.944 --> 00:06:32.824 I'm not going to say there's one in particular right now. Actually, 00:06:32.904 --> 00:06:37.304 I think my teachers, my kids are pretty good right now, but I've known teachers 00:06:37.304 --> 00:06:40.604 that, yes, they have the training and the certificate as a teacher, 00:06:40.604 --> 00:06:43.304 but I'm like, how are you a teacher? 00:06:45.604 --> 00:06:46.444 Questionable effectivity. 00:06:48.104 --> 00:06:52.584 You should understand some basic things you clearly aren't understanding about 00:06:52.584 --> 00:06:55.004 working with, you know, children and trying to teach them stuff. 00:06:55.004 --> 00:07:02.124 Anyway, but so, you know, flip that around because just because you have a certificate 00:07:02.124 --> 00:07:05.584 doesn't necessarily make you an instructor or at least a good one. 00:07:06.004 --> 00:07:12.124 But just because you don't have the traditional, you know, training or certification 00:07:12.124 --> 00:07:18.264 background doesn't necessarily mean you aren't an instructor or a teacher at the very least. 00:07:18.264 --> 00:07:24.364 Um, and so, you know, it's kind of like when I first became an instructor, 00:07:24.704 --> 00:07:29.684 you know, by certification process, I had already been spending some time teaching 00:07:29.684 --> 00:07:32.224 people close to me about, 00:07:32.824 --> 00:07:35.704 you know, guns, about safety, about how to shoot a little bit. 00:07:36.384 --> 00:07:40.604 Now I, I, I apologize to anyone that received training from me back in those 00:07:40.604 --> 00:07:45.064 days, cause I didn't know a whole lot and I'm still learning even today. 00:07:45.064 --> 00:07:50.584 But I was doing a little teaching, and I would like to think that I was at least 00:07:50.584 --> 00:07:57.744 doing a good job with respect of teaching people safety because that was something 00:07:57.744 --> 00:07:59.104 that was always really important to me. 00:07:59.224 --> 00:08:02.624 I never really had a tolerance for a lack of safety, 00:08:02.624 --> 00:08:08.264 and I think that's something that more and more people today need because we 00:08:08.264 --> 00:08:14.564 need good representatives in all of the 2A community that are encouraging proper safety. 00:08:15.064 --> 00:08:19.364 So there's my initial answer. So what are your thoughts on who is an instructor? 00:08:19.724 --> 00:08:24.684 I think yours hits on a lot of the heavy hitters there, right? 00:08:24.784 --> 00:08:31.124 Like I think that it's important that we all kind of have a duality mindset 00:08:31.124 --> 00:08:36.324 of being both a teacher or instructor, 00:08:36.664 --> 00:08:39.984 whatever word you want to use for it, as well as a student. 00:08:39.984 --> 00:08:48.344 Because instructors or trainers or educators, they need to learn how to do that craft and, 00:08:49.156 --> 00:08:54.596 And they need to be a student in order to learn and be able to execute that craft effectively. 00:08:54.936 --> 00:08:59.136 And I think that just marksmen in general, like getting into, 00:08:59.136 --> 00:09:03.176 you know, plinking on the range, competitive shooting, 00:09:03.436 --> 00:09:07.276 self-defense, like any of that kind of stuff, it usually starts with a family 00:09:07.276 --> 00:09:13.556 member or a friend that starts with some base level of safety. 00:09:13.556 --> 00:09:17.916 And here's what the basics are of how to hold a firearm, the safety part of it. 00:09:18.536 --> 00:09:22.236 There's how we align sites. This is what we need to do to not displace our hits. 00:09:22.436

--> 00:09:23.556 You know, those kind of things. 00:09:24.276 --> 00:09:30.556 Now, I mean, the effectivity of that training can always be kind of subjective. 00:09:30.616 --> 00:09:36.236 Like what we learn as humans, you know, 10 years ago versus now, right? 00:09:36.456 --> 00:09:40.596 It's always going to be evolving. So I don't think we can beat each other up 00:09:40.596 --> 00:09:45.476 too bad about saying like my training so many years ago was poor. 00:09:45.776 --> 00:09:52.676 It was probably as effective as we knew of the skill set that we were trying to convey at the time. 00:09:53.376 --> 00:09:57.556 And also like the skill set of being a trainer and conveying content. 00:09:57.556 --> 00:10:05.196 So I think that the thing I'm trying to get to here is if anybody wants to get 00:10:05.196 --> 00:10:07.876 really good in any specific skill, 00:10:08.196 --> 00:10:09.556 whether it's firearms or anything 00:10:09.556 --> 00:10:15.016 else, it's going to be very difficult if you're not a trainer, right? 00:10:15.016 --> 00:10:20.236 If you don't have that assessment mindset to observe how things are being done, 00:10:20.516 --> 00:10:26.936 break it down, build a process on what is causing the lack of performance, 00:10:26.936 --> 00:10:31.196 and then let's rebuild that process to make it more efficient or more aggressively 00:10:31.196 --> 00:10:33.296 or whatever the thing is to make it happen, 00:10:33.616 --> 00:10:35.476 quote-unquote, gooder, right? 00:10:35.876 --> 00:10:40.036 If you don't have that skill, it's going to be very difficult to increase your 00:10:40.036 --> 00:10:44.756 skill set, right? So I think it's important that 00:10:45.636 --> 00:10:51.216 Everybody kind of put on that quote unquote trainer hat from time to time to 00:10:51.216 --> 00:10:56.616 exercise their own knowledge of the content they're trying to master themselves, right? 00:10:56.736 --> 00:11:00.276 Because the more you understand the content and the foundational information 00:11:00.276 --> 00:11:05.256 and how to convey that content, it makes it much easier for you yourself to 00:11:05.256 --> 00:11:07.576 understand and absorb that content. 00:11:10.036 --> 00:11:16.856 I like that. The way you articulated that, I think, is really quite profound, actually. 00:11:17.456 --> 00:11:29.956 It made me think about where I started to advance my own skills pretty quickly. 00:11:31.136 --> 00:11:35.236 If you look at my whole life, because I've been shooting for most of my life, 00:11:35.656 --> 00:11:40.816 there was kind of this slow burn, slow growth, right? Just little by little. 00:11:41.376 --> 00:11:45.056 Um, and then, you know, in a couple of little spots where maybe a little bit 00:11:45.056 --> 00:11:51.396 of a quick little jump up, um, but, uh, there was a period, you know, 00:11:52.376 --> 00:11:56.176 roughly a decade ago and, and, and even up through, you know, 00:11:56.436 --> 00:12:00.356 now we're, and again, there's still some little kind of plateaus and things 00:12:00.356 --> 00:12:01.016 here and there, but there was 00:12:01.016 --> 00:12:04.076 a point where like, really things started to take off for me skill wise. 00:12:04.416 --> 00:12:10.236 And as I, like what you just said made me think about is once I started, um, 00:12:11.527 --> 00:12:20.147 putting that trainer hat on with regards to myself and really looking at what I was doing. 00:12:21.367 --> 00:12:24.107 You got some friends there wanting to join. Yeah. 00:12:24.807 --> 00:12:25.547 Sorry about that. 00:12:27.987 --> 00:12:33.327 You know, I started looking at my, at what I was doing, you know, 00:12:33.467 --> 00:12:40.587 technique wise, what I understood good just in general about shooting and, 00:12:40.587 --> 00:12:47.107 and starting to really like look inward and evaluate myself with like, okay, what am I doing? 00:12:47.267 --> 00:12:49.507 How am I doing it? How well am I doing it? 00:12:51.227 --> 00:12:57.047 That led me to really start to improve. And so it was sort of a way of looking, 00:12:57.587 --> 00:13:00.527 you know, kind of being my own instructor in a way, which is hard to do. 00:13:00.947 --> 00:13:04.027 I think that's something that's, you know it's challenging 00:13:04.027 --> 00:13:07.487 to be self-aware and to 00:13:07.487 --> 00:13:10.287 be able to kind of look as if you're 00:13:10.287 --> 00:13:14.307 looking at yourself from a third person point of view um 00:13:14.307 --> 00:13:17.607 i mean you can literally do that by setting up a camera and filming yourself 00:13:17.607 --> 00:13:22.847 and seeing what you do which is a very legitimate approach but it's not the 00:13:22.847 --> 00:13:29.047 only thing is even then you i i've i've you know showed people video of them 00:13:29.047 --> 00:13:34.067 shooting before uh i've had a few people over the years you know even even pay to have me review, 00:13:35.007 --> 00:13:38.867 video of themselves shooting kind of a remote coaching session and 00:13:38.867 --> 00:13:41.727 you know they've clearly watched the video 00:13:41.727 --> 00:13:45.187 themselves shooting and you know many times i can point something out they sometimes 00:13:45.187 --> 00:13:49.367 still doesn't quite you know register like what they're looking at um so that 00:13:49.367 --> 00:13:53.947 can be really challenging to do but i do think that when we can start approaching 00:13:53.947 --> 00:14:01.627 our own training and practice with that kind of trainer hat on and in mind, 00:14:01.627 --> 00:14:05.387 there's a huge opportunity for growth as a shooter. 00:14:06.567 --> 00:14:11.347 Absolutely. For me, it basically forced me to break down. 00:14:11.587 --> 00:14:17.587 If I thought about, I want to improve a specific skill or a task that I'm trying 00:14:17.587 --> 00:14:22.107 to do, if I broke that down in a way and say, well, how would I explain to do 00:14:22.107 --> 00:14:24.887 this thing to somebody else? 00:14:24.887 --> 00:14:28.467

That puts my like technical 00:14:28.467 --> 00:14:31.207 assessment cap on to be 00:14:31.207 --> 00:14:34.047 like okay step one step two step three step four 00:14:34.047 --> 00:14:37.667 where are the inefficiencies within each of those sub steps and 00:14:37.667 --> 00:14:41.187 then that just that process in of itself brings a 00:14:41.187 --> 00:14:44.567 highlight to the things that how i'm conveying 00:14:44.567 --> 00:14:49.947 that or how i'm performing performing that right so if i can't explain to myself 00:14:49.947 --> 00:14:54.147 how that thing is supposed to happen you know what i mean like it's going to 00:14:54.147 --> 00:14:58.527 be very hard to pick out the individual components to identify and fix them 00:14:58.527 --> 00:15:03.267 so i i think that it's important that but everybody kind of 00:15:03.927 --> 00:15:06.807 Put on that trainer hat and say okay for this 00:15:06.807 --> 00:15:09.567 skill i want to improve let me bust it up 00:15:09.567 --> 00:15:13.087 into its sub elements and convey it 00:15:13.087 --> 00:15:16.267 in a concise succinct way 00:15:16.267 --> 00:15:19.887 to somebody else that would get it right and that 00:15:19.887 --> 00:15:22.927 that skill that is a very difficult 00:15:22.927 --> 00:15:26.067 skill to master right just like marksmanship in 00:15:26.067 --> 00:15:29.847 itself it's it's a difficult skill to master being a 00:15:29.847 --> 00:15:37.647 succinct and precise prescriptive trainer to be able to observe a student's 00:15:37.647 --> 00:15:43.767 skill set and then cherry pick out what i like to call the deepest cuts in performance 00:15:43.767 --> 00:15:47.687 right or skill set and not worry about the shallow cuts. 00:15:48.087 --> 00:15:51.287 Like we got to fix the deep cuts first and then worry about the shallow cuts 00:15:51.287 --> 00:15:54.767 second or third or 10th or 100th, right? But having that 00:15:55.836 --> 00:15:59.056 Ability to pick out those cuts is i 00:15:59.056 --> 00:16:01.816 think where it all starts right so if it 00:16:01.816 --> 00:16:05.576 starts with your own self-assessment and i like when 00:16:05.576 --> 00:16:08.316 i first started this train of your 00:16:08.316 --> 00:16:11.316 people process it started with going to the range with buddies 00:16:11.316 --> 00:16:14.016 right and we would trade time on the range and 00:16:14.016 --> 00:16:17.396 be like okay for this next 30 minute minutes you'll 00:16:17.396 --> 00:16:20.636 be the instructor and i'll be the student and then we'll reverse it and 00:16:20.636 --> 00:16:23.316 we'll pick any given skill that we think that 00:16:23.316 --> 00:16:26.236 we need help with and then we'll just act 00:16:26.236 --> 00:16:29.196 and it's mainly just an exercising of the 00:16:29.196 --> 00:16:36.036 observation skill effort right so that it really started to highlight how do 00:16:36.036 --> 00:16:41.116 i strategize around what am i looking for when do i look for that thing how 00:16:41.116 --> 00:16:44.216 do identify what somebody is doing 00:16:44.216 --> 00:16:49.156 like there's a lot of things that micro movements that we do behind a 00:16:49.356 --> 00:16:55.436 firearm that an instructor can't see directly, but they can see the aftermath 00:16:55.436 --> 00:16:57.876 of a failed attempt, if that makes sense. 00:16:58.056 --> 00:17:02.776 Not, and I'm not talking about hits and targets. I'm talking about really subtle 00:17:02.776 --> 00:17:08.416 body movements, really subtle events that happen that the student does while 00:17:08.416 --> 00:17:09.696 they're trying to perform the task. 00:17:10.156 --> 00:17:18.236 So, yeah. Well, and that's in addition to the one thing that any of us, 00:17:19.116 --> 00:17:24.696 including as an instructor cannot see is what somebody else actually sees, 00:17:25.696 --> 00:17:31.056 as much as i'd like to as much as even when we could put little cameras or whatever right here, 00:17:31.796 --> 00:17:35.876 above or near the eye it's still not exactly what 00:17:35.876 --> 00:17:39.776 that person sees and even then it's not even if we could in theory put a camera 00:17:39.776 --> 00:17:44.676 right where a person's eye is to see their exact point of view it also doesn't 00:17:44.676 --> 00:17:53.636 even show us exactly how they perceive what they're seeing or looking at which is really key the. 00:17:53.636 --> 00:17:56.456 Eyeballs could be open but the lights are not on right 00:17:56.456 --> 00:18:03.256 Right including you know in addition to that you know things like you know what 00:18:03.256 --> 00:18:07.856 where their focal focal plane is at or their accommodation and things like that 00:18:07.856 --> 00:18:11.016 you know That can be a factor in certain things. 00:18:11.216 --> 00:18:16.496 And so, yeah, that's always been one fascinating thing as an instructor that 00:18:16.496 --> 00:18:17.936 just kind of gets me is like, 00:18:18.136 --> 00:18:22.796 it's like, you know, I wish I could see what you're seeing, you know, 00:18:22.856 --> 00:18:27.096 because that would like open up so much potential to be like, 00:18:27.276 --> 00:18:30.716 you know, to really break that down and really find some of those, you know, 00:18:31.596 --> 00:18:35.536 just little really nuanced things a lot of times too that it's like, 00:18:35.656 --> 00:18:38.096 if I could just see what you're seeing, I know there's something there. 00:18:38.096 --> 00:18:42.736 That's just being missed, that we're not quite, you know, capturing or understanding. 00:18:43.216 --> 00:18:45.036 As you know, that's something that, 00:18:45.961 --> 00:18:49.821 Especially when you want to really push the performance envelope as a shooter, 00:18:50.181 --> 00:18:56.481 a lot of that is being able to understand and process all this visual information 00:18:56.481 --> 00:18:58.381 that's happening at a high rate of speed. 00:18:58.601 --> 00:19:02.081 Yeah. And, you know, we could try to communicate it. And I've certainly,

00:19:02.381 --> 00:19:05.601 like you just got done talking about, you know. 00:19:06.561 --> 00:19:12.041 Trying to, you know, think my way through the, you know, step by step by step 00:19:12.041 --> 00:19:14.381 processes of how I do certain things. 00:19:14.381 --> 00:19:18.741 And therefore, how would I communicate that to someone else, things of that nature. 00:19:18.961 --> 00:19:28.561 And it would just be so powerful to be able to articulate things exactly to 00:19:28.561 --> 00:19:31.001 someone, you know, based on what they're actually seeing, 00:19:31.141 --> 00:19:33.161 what they're actually perceiving, what they're actually thinking, 00:19:33.341 --> 00:19:34.981 what they're actually feeling, too. 00:19:34.981 --> 00:19:39.781 That's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down is the emotions that someone's 00:19:39.781 --> 00:19:49.081 experiencing, which can widely vary from person to person in positive and negative ways, too. 00:19:49.961 --> 00:19:57.281 Yeah. So one thing, like little nuance thing that I've learned is trying to 00:19:57.281 --> 00:20:01.421 gain that content that the student has visually. 00:20:01.561 --> 00:20:04.441 What are they seeing? What are they thinking of at that given time? 00:20:04.981 --> 00:20:11.041 And I'll ask, like, I'll have this student shoot a drill and there'll be either 00:20:11.041 --> 00:20:14.401 success or failure at the given drill. 00:20:14.721 --> 00:20:19.161 And in both scenarios, I'll ask them, what did you see? 00:20:19.981 --> 00:20:24.921 And that's to me, that's what's opened the door. That gets us our mind open 00:20:24.921 --> 00:20:28.541 to like, oh, I got to pay attention to what's happening in this, 00:20:28.701 --> 00:20:30.601 the duration of this event. 00:20:30.601 --> 00:20:37.021 And that's where once I get them to open that door, then I can open the second 00:20:37.021 --> 00:20:40.261 door and say, okay, when did you see? 00:20:41.441 --> 00:20:43.181 When did the things happen? 00:20:44.681 --> 00:20:49.621 So to me, step one is like, were you paying attention during the event? 00:20:50.521 --> 00:20:56.321 What did you see? Did your conscious mind consume that content that went into 00:20:56.321 --> 00:20:57.741 your eyeball and into your brain? 00:20:57.741 --> 00:21:04.881 And then when did you perceive these things to happen right because if if we can't put a very 00:21:06.041 --> 00:21:09.301 definitive point on when something happened 00:21:09.301 --> 00:21:12.761 it's very hard for us to give instruction on what 00:21:12.761 --> 00:21:15.681 to do in antithesis to that right whether 00:21:15.681 --> 00:21:19.201 it's absolutely oh let's reinforce this appropriate 00:21:19.201 --> 00:21:22.141 when that resulted in a desired result on 00:21:22.141 --> 00:21:25.721 target or whatever we're trying to do or an inappropriate 00:21:25.721 --> 00:21:32.001 when like oh yeah my eyeballs flicked to this other place during the shot instead 00:21:32.001 --> 00:21:37.721 of watching the shot happen and all the stuff behind it right so I think it's 00:21:37.721 --> 00:21:43.001 important that we always kind of have an open mind and you kind of tickled on that where 00:21:44.206 --> 00:21:48.506 People's inherent behaviors and their mindset um they 00:21:48.506 --> 00:21:51.786 need to be open to learning right like i've i've 00:21:51.786 --> 00:21:54.606 had plenty of times where there's students 00:21:54.606 --> 00:21:58.926 that feel for some reason some performance pressure with 00:21:58.926 --> 00:22:01.746 just being in a class and having to perform in front 00:22:01.746 --> 00:22:04.786 of an instructor and in those scenarios that's where 00:22:04.786 --> 00:22:08.486 i think my skill set of trying to keep it light a 00:22:08.486 --> 00:22:11.326 little bit joking that kind of stuff not making 00:22:11.326 --> 00:22:15.106 it super serious but also trying to 00:22:15.106 --> 00:22:18.406 enforce the the factor of like if 00:22:18.406 --> 00:22:22.546 i have a student that has this mindset of i'm only going to perform properly 00:22:22.546 --> 00:22:27.826 through the whole class that person's not going to learn nearly as much as a 00:22:27.826 --> 00:22:33.706 person willing to try try and fail try and succeed try and fit like the people 00:22:33.706 --> 00:22:37.986 that are willing to try and fail and not feel self-conscious about that, 00:22:38.286 --> 00:22:42.026 these are the people that are willing to learn, right? 00:22:42.146 --> 00:22:45.666 So if you kind of stay in your own little comfort zone, I got my warm little 00:22:45.666 --> 00:22:49.646 jacket on, I'm not going to do anything out of my normal wheelhouse. 00:22:50.566 --> 00:22:56.666 I think you're really squandering that opportunity to find new levels of performance 00:22:56.666 --> 00:22:59.466 or new levels of understanding of what you're trying to do. 00:23:00.506 --> 00:23:03.446 Mm-hmm i couldn't agree more with that 00:23:03.446 --> 00:23:06.286 i i just saw that this last weekend 00:23:06.286 --> 00:23:10.666 teaching some course blocks at the guardian conference and there were a couple 00:23:10.666 --> 00:23:15.486 of students where i remember you know encouraging them reminding them like you're 00:23:15.486 --> 00:23:20.366 here to learn you're not here to show me how good you can shoot and how well 00:23:20.366 --> 00:23:26.186 you do um you know so it's it's great that you're keeping all your shots right in there, 00:23:26.366 --> 00:23:28.506 you know, tight in the zone or whatever, 00:23:29.026 --> 00:23:31.446 that's, that's, you know, like, bravo, good for you. 00:23:31.846 --> 00:23:37.266 But I, if you want to get something out of this, you need to actually push yourself 00:23:37.266 --> 00:23:41.186 to, to a new place where you're, you're learning new things and, 00:23:41.346 --> 00:23:43.846 you know, the wheels start to fall off the bus a little bit. 00:23:44.026 --> 00:23:47.166 And then we can actually

look at, well, why did the wheels fall off? 00:23:47.626 --> 00:23:51.346 You know, what, you know, where was the breaking point? Now we pushed you to 00:23:51.346 --> 00:23:56.306 a new place, a new performance threshold that you, you know, 00:23:56.886 --> 00:23:59.606 weren't able to previously go or you didn't allow yourself to go. 00:23:59.766 --> 00:24:04.786 And now, now we're seeing things are a little bit uncomfortable. I understand that. 00:24:06.064 --> 00:24:10.424 Okay, where's the failure points now? And so then we can start analyzing and 00:24:10.424 --> 00:24:12.944 breaking that down. That's really key. 00:24:13.564 --> 00:24:17.404 So that's really good advice, I think, what you just brought in to the conversation, 00:24:17.404 --> 00:24:23.444 whether you are attending a class or some kind of training event and looking 00:24:23.444 --> 00:24:29.704 for instruction from an instructor or trainer, or whether you're just practicing things you've learned, 00:24:29.864 --> 00:24:35.944 uh, on your own, if you're not pushing yourself and you're just staying in that 00:24:35.944 --> 00:24:38.444 comfortable, you know, place, uh, 00:24:38.804 --> 00:24:41.684 you're, you got your little, you know, woobie or whatever, and you're not, 00:24:41.784 --> 00:24:43.244 you're refusing to let go of it. 00:24:43.544 --> 00:24:47.964 Um, it's, it's hard to get better. You're just going to kind of plateau out 00:24:47.964 --> 00:24:51.364 and stay, stay where you always have been. 00:24:51.964 --> 00:24:55.224 I jokingly tell my students that, um, there, 00:24:55.344 --> 00:24:58.404 nobody has learned how to pop wheelies on their bicycle as 00:24:58.404 --> 00:25:01.484 a kid without wrecking yeah right there's plenty 00:25:01.484 --> 00:25:04.284 of scraped knees and beat up bikes right like you're 00:25:04.284 --> 00:25:07.704 not going to learn how to do it without a bunch of failures to get 00:25:07.704 --> 00:25:10.464 to the point of oh now i can do the wheelie and this is how we do 00:25:10.464 --> 00:25:13.364 it and this is how i not wreck right there's lots of wrecking that 00:25:13.364 --> 00:25:16.844 needs to happen and we got to be graceful in 00:25:16.844 --> 00:25:20.304 the wrecks right meaning okay like there's 00:25:20.304 --> 00:25:23.504 plenty of times in my classes when maybe i'm 00:25:23.504 --> 00:25:26.544 pushing a student's level of aggression on 00:25:26.544 --> 00:25:30.224 a transition between targets and i 00:25:30.224 --> 00:25:33.264 could care less if they actually hit the targets when 00:25:33.264 --> 00:25:36.144 we start doing it because if i don't get 00:25:36.144 --> 00:25:41.364 them used to moving their appendages at the appropriate aggressive pace then 00:25:41.364 --> 00:25:46.744 the hits don't matter if that makes sense right so that there'll be a time when 00:25:46.744 --> 00:25:54.104 the hits do matter but like it's kind of like the like certain athletes like gymnasts or whatnot, 00:25:54.244 --> 00:25:56.624 they jump into big foam pits, right? 00:25:56.944 --> 00:26:00.284 When they're figuring out how many flips can I do in this one jump, 00:26:00.424 --> 00:26:01.324 right? Or that kind of stuff. 00:26:01.504 --> 00:26:07.664 Like there needs to be that safety net of failure that is a open environment 00:26:07.664 --> 00:26:09.624 to be able to try and fail. 00:26:10.124 --> 00:26:15.924 Yeah. I like to call that like the discovery and push portion of training, right? 00:26:16.124 --> 00:26:20.204 Because if we're not willing to discover what the limits are and what the limits 00:26:20.204 --> 00:26:22.804 are not, right, then what are we doing? 00:26:24.402 --> 00:26:29.742 Yeah, it kind of, you just reminded me of, and I've always been fascinated by 00:26:29.742 --> 00:26:33.222 this, but, you know, like Travis Pastrana and his whole, like, 00:26:33.722 --> 00:26:38.622 Nitro Circus, you know, group, all the guys associated with that. 00:26:38.622 --> 00:26:42.202 Like i mean guys are doing tricks on 00:26:42.202 --> 00:26:45.662 bikes on with atvs 00:26:45.662 --> 00:26:50.882 with cars with all kinds of things these days that we never would have imagined 00:26:50.882 --> 00:26:56.342 a decade ago two decades ago three decades ago because somebody had to be like 00:26:56.342 --> 00:27:01.242 hey let's let's try something crazy and like i'm going to wreck and probably 00:27:01.242 --> 00:27:04.142 break bones You know, of course they got smarter with time, 00:27:04.242 --> 00:27:07.562 like develop these huge, um, uh, 00:27:07.962 --> 00:27:12.922 foam pits and, and, and, and inflated bags and everything to make that a lot 00:27:12.922 --> 00:27:18.402 safer to do and padded, you know, landing, uh, uh, ramps and zones and things. 00:27:19.722 --> 00:27:23.682 But even with all that, you watch these guys practice these, 00:27:23.682 --> 00:27:28.962 these tricks and like they wreck all the time. They wreck so many times. 00:27:29.582 --> 00:27:34.422 Oh yeah. And it's like, that's got to hurt so bad doing it again and again. 00:27:34.582 --> 00:27:38.362 And like, it's literally hurting their bodies to learn how to do these things. 00:27:38.842 --> 00:27:42.662 Meanwhile, we can, I mean, within safe limits with a firearm, 00:27:42.822 --> 00:27:47.542 we don't want to end up shooting ourselves or anybody else, but we can push 00:27:47.542 --> 00:27:52.002 the limits tremendously with a gun in our hands and fail, 00:27:52.222 --> 00:27:54.182 you know, spectacularly. 00:27:54.442 --> 00:27:58.922 And, and we're not like actually hurting ourselves. It may hurt our egos, 00:27:58.922 --> 00:28:05.002 but that's like the beautiful thing is we can push the limits quite a bit and 00:28:05.002 --> 00:28:08.482 it's not actually hurting us as long as we're being safe. 00:28:08.642 --> 00:28:14.782 And that's a huge opportunity to learn stuff. A common, I think you kind of 00:28:14.782 --> 00:28:21.902 already touched on this, but I see a

common piece of advice thrown out there on the interwebs, 00:28:22.082 --> 00:28:26.602 on social media especially, where someone maybe posts up a video, 00:28:26.782 --> 00:28:29.102 like a match video, a stage they're shooting or something. 00:28:30.280 --> 00:28:33.280 And, you know, they're asking for some advice or something. 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.040 And sometimes that advice might, they might be saying something along the lines 00:28:37.040 --> 00:28:43.080 of, you know, like, I'm struggling to kind of find the right balance of, 00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:46.380 you know, I go to a match and I'm really accurate, but slow, 00:28:46.420 --> 00:28:49.160 or I'm really fast and like woefully inaccurate. 00:28:50.120 --> 00:28:53.340 And it's sort of like, you know, how do I, how do I put this together? 00:28:54.360 --> 00:29:03.300 And one of the things that I see bandied about as advice is to feel free to go to a match, 00:29:03.520 --> 00:29:08.720 inappropriate settings, I think, of course, where you kind of push a little 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:17.480 bit and allow things to fall apart a little bit with the encouragement of see 00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:21.340 if you can get used to seeing the chaoticness. 00:29:22.520 --> 00:29:29.100 The chaos of this, you know, much faster speed of shooting or level of aggression, if you will. 00:29:29.600 --> 00:29:34.640 And, and if you can start picking up on what's actually going on right before your eyes, 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:40.080 then, you know, you eventually you can start to sort of exert a little bit of 00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:44.800 control over that and start bringing it back within your wheelhouse of, of skill. 00:29:45.020 --> 00:29:48.080 And, and like, um i've certainly have experimented 00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:52.600 without uh heck i shot a match um not 00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:55.660 that long ago uh went and shot one at paul clark 00:29:55.660 --> 00:29:58.520 jr's place like last month and that 00:29:58.520 --> 00:30:01.640 was one i just showed up i'm like this is a match of low consequence 00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.580 i'm just gonna push push speed 00:30:04.580 --> 00:30:08.260 and kind of see how it goes and it 00:30:08.260 --> 00:30:10.900 pleasantly surprised me with some of the takeaways that i 00:30:10.900 --> 00:30:13.840 came came you know with from that of like 00:30:13.840 --> 00:30:17.780 oh wow like i was able to do more than what i expected uh were there some you 00:30:17.780 --> 00:30:22.420 know slight missteps here and there sure but you know it's hard to learn and 00:30:22.420 --> 00:30:28.060 if you're not actually pushing yourself into new territories i don't know any 00:30:28.060 --> 00:30:32.200 additional thoughts on that before i maybe move on to something else i. 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.520 Think that that's like i i 00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:38.860 think that any any of the practical shooting sports or 00:30:38.860 --> 00:30:41.960 if we want to put rounds down

range 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:44.980 in an aggressive manner it's always going 00:30:44.980 --> 00:30:49.060 to be a game of what's good enough like is 00:30:49.060 --> 00:30:54.460 this sight picture sight movie good enough for the given target difficulty and 00:30:54.460 --> 00:31:01.280 the attenuation of the gun during recoil like that that's the to me i think 00:31:01.280 --> 00:31:07.360 that that's for most of the if i talk about this from a perspective of uspsa skill set But, 00:31:08.693 --> 00:31:14.893 The skill set of C class, you know, skill set shooters and below versus B and 00:31:14.893 --> 00:31:19.513 above the B and above people are getting in that mode of, I probably don't need 00:31:19.513 --> 00:31:21.633 super steady sites on this given site picture. 00:31:22.193 --> 00:31:25.273 Like this wobbly site picture is good enough. 00:31:25.613 --> 00:31:31.193 Right. Or I'm still a little physically bouncy coming into this shooting position, 00:31:31.193 --> 00:31:32.393 but I'm going to shoot anyway. 00:31:32.833 --> 00:31:38.053 Right. So as you were stating, like it, it would be very difficult for a race 00:31:38.053 --> 00:31:41.833 car driver to feel comfortable driving at 200 miles an hour. 00:31:42.133 --> 00:31:46.073 If the only time they drive 200 miles an hour is on during race day. 00:31:46.533 --> 00:31:50.673 Right. So outside of race day, you know, on a track day where they're training 00:31:50.673 --> 00:31:55.213 or practicing, they need to be doing a lot of 200 mile an hour training, right? 00:31:55.333 --> 00:31:58.233 They probably need to be doing 250 mile an hour training. 00:31:58.553 --> 00:32:02.313 You know, you know, what, what are the limits? What is this? 00:32:02.633 --> 00:32:05.613 When does this become normal? because that's really 00:32:05.613 --> 00:32:08.673 I think one of the hardest things about you know 00:32:08.673 --> 00:32:11.573 shooting firearms at a very high skill 00:32:11.573 --> 00:32:15.133 level is it is a super abnormal 00:32:15.133 --> 00:32:22.573 skill set that humans are are just not inherently built to do as a normal thing 00:32:22.573 --> 00:32:28.613 to every day right it not I would sum it up as at least in the practical shooting 00:32:28.613 --> 00:32:33.073 sports you can be on the self-defense side of it but i need to be 00:32:33.973 --> 00:32:37.433 Visually patient while very physically 00:32:37.433 --> 00:32:40.553 aggressive well those two things 00:32:40.553 --> 00:32:46.273 mixed together are like oil and water because behaviors are usually tied together 00:32:46.273 --> 00:32:51.553 like it's very easy for someone to be visually aggressive and physically aggressive 00:32:51.553 --> 00:32:54.613 right or visually passive and 00:32:54.613 --> 00:33:00.033 physically passive But it is much more difficult to be visually patient, 00:33:00.413 --> 00:33:05.473 to wait for the desired sight picture or sight movie before we actually send 00:33:05.473 --> 00:33:11.053 the

round, while also pushing our appendages to their physical limit. 00:33:11.333 --> 00:33:13.453 Right. So yeah. 00:33:14.671 --> 00:33:16.231 That's the hard part about it. 00:33:16.911 --> 00:33:20.691 I like how you just explained that. Like oil and water. 00:33:22.631 --> 00:33:29.631 Patient with the eyes. Aggressive with the hands. And feet. Yeah, that's fascinating. 00:33:30.211 --> 00:33:32.991 I have a thing. I make it a point. 00:33:33.531 --> 00:33:39.031 I train a lot of people throughout the year. I'm a high-level competitor. 00:33:40.251 --> 00:33:46.011 I do a lot of my own self-assessment. The thing that I try to make a point to 00:33:46.011 --> 00:33:50.111 do, and knock on wood, I've successfully done this every year, 00:33:50.331 --> 00:33:58.751 is take a training class from a different instructor and have the opportunity to be a student, right? 00:33:58.891 --> 00:34:03.371 And take off the instructor hat and then be that person that can attend the 00:34:03.371 --> 00:34:08.171 class and try the stuff, pop the wheelies, skin my knees, right? 00:34:08.171 --> 00:34:11.731 And try to figure out what I need to do, right? 00:34:11.851 --> 00:34:15.671 To potentially find what is the next level, right? 00:34:15.951 --> 00:34:23.651 And, or what is the augmented level that I need to be at given my current physicality, right? 00:34:23.791 --> 00:34:27.871 Like as we get older, like our mobility, our flexibility, our strength, 00:34:28.051 --> 00:34:32.131 our eyeballs, like our visual processing skills, like all that stuff is always 00:34:32.131 --> 00:34:36.231 evolving, sometimes in a good direction, sometimes in a bad direction, right? 00:34:36.951 --> 00:34:42.151 So I think it's, at least for me, it's always been a process of re-evaluating 00:34:42.151 --> 00:34:46.611 what do I need to do to be able to perform at my maximum skill. 00:34:46.811 --> 00:34:52.511 And I've had the best of luck of, of taking, you know, collaborating with trainers. 00:34:53.777 --> 00:34:59.977 That actually like the foundation of their skillset is opposite of mine, 00:35:00.477 --> 00:35:08.497 meaning their style or their presentation of content is, I don't want to say bad. 00:35:08.697 --> 00:35:15.117 Like it's just in a different methodology than what I normally convey or what I normally embrace. 00:35:15.377 --> 00:35:20.957 And I I've, I've done the years of, Oh, this, this trainer has a shooting and 00:35:20.957 --> 00:35:23.377 a training style is very similar to me. 00:35:23.777 --> 00:35:28.277 Let me take that training, try to enforce, like build these things together. 00:35:28.457 --> 00:35:34.077 But I've actually found that I make much more effective discoveries when I take 00:35:34.077 --> 00:35:40.357 a class from a trainer that has an alternate way of not just performing the skill, 00:35:40.497 --> 00:35:43.497 but more importantly, conveying the content. 00:35:43.937 --> 00:35:48.117 Right. A different combination of words to convey the same thing that we're 00:35:48.117 --> 00:35:49.177 all talking about. Right. 00:35:49.597 --> 00:35:52.777 Sometimes that just makes things click. right so 00:35:52.777 --> 00:35:57.137 i think it's important that even though people may have their favorite trainer 00:35:57.137 --> 00:36:02.057 or the person they feel like oh this i really get it with this person always 00:36:02.057 --> 00:36:08.077 leave the door open to try you know take training from people you wouldn't think 00:36:08.077 --> 00:36:10.577 that hey i could learn something different from this person 00:36:10.577 --> 00:36:13.477 Yeah well i 00:36:13.477 --> 00:36:16.257 mean and i'm glad you're uh moving the 00:36:16.257 --> 00:36:19.257 conversation this direction now uh and so 00:36:19.257 --> 00:36:22.517 let's continue to explore a little bit more the idea of 00:36:22.517 --> 00:36:25.637 of trainers take taking classes from 00:36:25.637 --> 00:36:29.097 other trainers uh i'm kind 00:36:29.097 --> 00:36:34.397 of curious and i've been in class in fact i've been in classes with you uh i 00:36:34.397 --> 00:36:39.377 think you hosted tim harron at home range several years ago you were in that 00:36:39.377 --> 00:36:44.097 class i was in that class it was really cool to be and to share that class with 00:36:44.097 --> 00:36:48.877 you and other other a number of really good shooters in that class as well. 00:36:49.497 --> 00:36:51.997 And it was fascinating to kind of watch you, 00:36:53.300 --> 00:36:56.060 ask questions and like you were really getting into the 00:36:56.060 --> 00:37:00.560 weeds on a couple of things that i mean it was very apparent you know where 00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:05.660 your mind was at and what you were trying to uh figure out you know in the context 00:37:05.660 --> 00:37:09.400 of that class at times it was it was it was cool to to you know kind of just 00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:13.800 at times just be the fly on the wall and like listen to charlie ask questions of tim heron, 00:37:15.120 --> 00:37:21.360 but who are some of the trainers if you want to throw out some names that you've 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.520 trained with that you like, maybe even in a surprising fashion, 00:37:25.700 --> 00:37:27.580 like you learned something from that were like, 00:37:27.980 --> 00:37:30.220 wow, that was, you know, I'm really glad I took that class. 00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:37.700 Yeah. So I've taken a bunch of different classes from a bunch of different trainers like Tim Heron. 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:41.280 I've trained with him several different times, either in group classes or even 00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:42.860 one-on-one training events. 00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:48.300 Manny Bragg, taken several classes from him. 00:37:48.820 --> 00:37:54.560 Travis Tomasi, another great trainer. Todd Jarrett, Bob Bogle. 00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:05.400 It's interesting because when I was newer in the shooting sports, 00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:08.920 I always thought

that there was the way. 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:16.320 Here's the way from start to finish, step one through five million. Right. 00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:22.240 And this instructor is going to have the magical process from step one to whatever. Right. 00:38:22.680 --> 00:38:31.540 And as the years went by, I really started to learn myself that there's no one way. 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:36.140 Right. Because in the end, we're all unique humans. 00:38:36.140 --> 00:38:39.540 We all have our advantages and 00:38:39.540 --> 00:38:42.620 our disadvantages and our abilities to absorb content or 00:38:42.620 --> 00:38:45.680 do the thing that this person does right 00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:53.920 so like i quickly found that i'm gonna have to find charlie's way to perform 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:59.140 the best that i can and that is kind of like the bruce lee methodology of do 00:38:59.140 --> 00:39:05.540 all the ways right like try all the ways and what take what works and abandon what doesn't Right. 00:39:05.720 --> 00:39:12.960 And at the end of it, meaning once somebody has built a solid foundation of skill set, 00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:21.919 That is going to contain a bunch of different varied methodologies to be well-rounded. 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:28.679 I think absolutely the people that are very effective, skilled shooters, 00:39:28.899 --> 00:39:36.259 they've either taken a decent chunk of training from people or they've consumed 00:39:36.259 --> 00:39:39.619 quite a bit of training content. 00:39:39.619 --> 00:39:45.539 And whether that's watching other competitors perform their craft on range or 00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:50.739 attending matches with those competitors and seeing what they're doing on the squad. 00:39:51.899 --> 00:39:59.039 I think that it's always going to be a what is best for you to build your own style. 00:39:59.439 --> 00:40:05.779 And to get to the pinnacle of skill set, the student really needs to own that. 00:40:06.399 --> 00:40:11.319 This needs to be me, if that makes sense. instead of, I want to be like Charlie, 00:40:12.019 --> 00:40:13.579 right? Or I want to be like Riley. 00:40:13.759 --> 00:40:17.179 I want to do exactly what Riley does. That's going to get people to a certain 00:40:17.179 --> 00:40:20.559 level of skill that's usually pretty high level proficiency. 00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:25.439 But if they want to truly maximize their performance, they need to break out 00:40:25.439 --> 00:40:32.499 of that mimicry and build their own skill set around their own behaviors and their own strengths. 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:35.459 Because we all have our own inherent strengths. 00:40:35.659 --> 00:40:40.979 And the thing is that we like to do versus the things that we don't like to do, right? 00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:41.939 Yeah. 00:40:44.659 --> 00:40:47.819 Yeah, I'm glad that you explained that the way you did. 00:40:48.059 --> 00:40:52.219 For instance, kind of at the beginning of that commentary, you said something 00:40:52.219 --> 00:40:58.619 along the lines of, you know, earlier on feeling like or believing that there 00:40:58.619 --> 00:41:00.559 was the way and, you know, 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:03.319 step one to 5 million or whatever, however many steps there are, 00:41:03.399 --> 00:41:04.539 there's probably 5 million steps. 00:41:05.019 --> 00:41:08.239 It feels like that sometimes. it's easy to kind 00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:10.959 of fall into that trap i have fallen into that trap i mean 00:41:10.959 --> 00:41:13.839 like i'll give you a good example you mentioned 00:41:13.839 --> 00:41:18.819 you trained with todd jarrett and i mean this is a guy that's that holds multiple 00:41:18.819 --> 00:41:25.019 multiple national and world championship titles uh he's been competing at a 00:41:25.019 --> 00:41:30.199 very high level for a long time and still is uh even you know as a basically 00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:32.979 senior aged competitor right um Um, 00:41:33.979 --> 00:41:38.699 and so it's easy to be like, well, if I just did exactly what Todd Jarrett does, 00:41:38.819 --> 00:41:40.139 well then like, I'll be it. 00:41:40.359 --> 00:41:43.359 I'm just another Todd Jarrett. Like I'll be a national and a world champion 00:41:43.359 --> 00:41:46.039 too. Right. But it's not that simple. 00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:52.839 Uh, it doesn't work that way. Like you said, we got to find our way, uh, whatever that is. 00:41:53.659 --> 00:41:57.559 I, I have had to learn that same lesson myself because I have trained with, 00:41:58.540 --> 00:42:03.780 A few instructors, you know, especially earlier on in my own career where it's 00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:06.620 like, yeah, I really respect that guy and he clearly knows his stuff. 00:42:06.620 --> 00:42:12.160 So I'm just going to go learn what he has to teach and then I'll be awesome, right? 00:42:13.660 --> 00:42:19.060 And what I've really learned is that the more instructors I've trained with 00:42:19.060 --> 00:42:23.260 over the years, it's opened me up to additional perspectives, 00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:25.420 different ways of doing things, 00:42:26.860 --> 00:42:31.900 different, um, different articulations of language, uh, which that's been huge. 00:42:32.040 --> 00:42:35.100 Cause there's been times where there's like a difficult to understand concept 00:42:35.100 --> 00:42:39.440 and you've heard it explained by this instructor, that instructor, 00:42:39.580 --> 00:42:42.860 this other instructor, and then you take this class with somebody and you're 00:42:42.860 --> 00:42:44.180 not even expecting it at times. 00:42:44.240 --> 00:42:48.500 Like you're, they might even know, they may not even be a so-called specialist 00:42:48.500 --> 00:42:50.300 in whatever that thing is. 00:42:50.420 --> 00:42:53.100 You know, you're, they're there to primarily learn, I don't know, 00:42:53.160 --> 00:42:55.620 this is somebody that's really good at teaching movement, let's say, 00:42:55.740 --> 00:42:56.880 or

transitions or whatever. 00:42:57.100 --> 00:43:01.160 And like, you're there to learn that, but they, they drop a comment sometimes, 00:43:02.140 --> 00:43:04.580 offhand, not even realizing what, what they're saying. 00:43:05.560 --> 00:43:08.920 And all of a sudden it clicks these dots of like, oh, 00:43:09.660 --> 00:43:13.660 you know, this thing about, let's just say it's grip or whatever, 00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:17.000 you know, uh, and also you're like, oh my goodness, that just, 00:43:17.140 --> 00:43:21.080 you know, my, my world has shifted because I have heard this. 00:43:22.189 --> 00:43:27.269 Three, four, five, half dozen times. And now all of a sudden this one thing clicks for me. 00:43:27.369 --> 00:43:36.669 And so it's really, really wise to expose yourself to multiple different methodologies 00:43:36.669 --> 00:43:39.689 and techniques and ways of teaching. 00:43:39.689 --> 00:43:43.089 And the only way that's going to happen is by exposing yourself to multiple 00:43:43.089 --> 00:43:46.769 different instructors as well. Like you, I've had the opportunity. 00:43:47.409 --> 00:43:51.009 It's been a little bit lighter in the last couple of years, but at one time 00:43:51.009 --> 00:43:56.789 I made it my personal goal to take 80 hours of training, uh, in the course of a year. 00:43:57.629 --> 00:44:02.049 And, um, that was hugely beneficial when I was like, you know, 00:44:02.109 --> 00:44:03.529 really locked in on that goal. 00:44:03.789 --> 00:44:06.969 Uh, you know, a couple of years, I even, you know, exceeded that, 00:44:07.109 --> 00:44:11.849 you know, more like a hundred or so hours of training that, that was hugely 00:44:11.849 --> 00:44:16.029 beneficial because during that time, you know, and I made sure I took good notes. 00:44:16.129 --> 00:44:19.369 And so you You start compiling things from notes and you start realizing, 00:44:19.569 --> 00:44:23.849 you start making these connections from other classes or trainers that, 00:44:24.009 --> 00:44:28.789 you know, just like as you go through those notes and things that can continue 00:44:28.789 --> 00:44:34.169 to pay dividends even long after the class is done and over with to have additional 00:44:34.169 --> 00:44:39.569 aha moments that could be really transformational for a person as a shooter. 00:44:40.569 --> 00:44:44.369 Absolutely. absolutely yeah like the thing that maybe 00:44:44.369 --> 00:44:48.189 this is a weirdness about me is that it once 00:44:48.189 --> 00:44:51.929 you once i became an instructor 00:44:51.929 --> 00:44:54.749 we'll just use that term it's very 00:44:54.749 --> 00:44:58.169 hard to turn off the instructor observation 00:44:58.169 --> 00:45:00.969 skills and and so what 00:45:00.969 --> 00:45:03.829 i found is and it was bad on me 00:45:03.829 --> 00:45:06.649 the first class or two that 00:45:06.649 --> 00:45:10.189 i took from another trainer after i was training i'd 00:45:10.189 --> 00:45:13.889 be interacting in the class and then

i would say inappropriately 00:45:13.889 --> 00:45:17.329 injecting my thoughts or my 00:45:17.329 --> 00:45:20.749 methodologies around a given skill set or whatnot thinking 00:45:20.749 --> 00:45:24.389 that i'm enriching the class and i'm 00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:28.829 not saying it was bad content but i don't want to put that instructor in a mode 00:45:28.829 --> 00:45:37.489 where i'm derailing their formula of the content presentation right but I since 00:45:37.489 --> 00:45:42.349 then what I've always done is I when I'm attending a class I have 00:45:43.327 --> 00:45:46.027 Basically two sides of a page in the 00:45:46.027 --> 00:45:49.747 notebook one side is charlie's feedback meaning 00:45:49.747 --> 00:45:52.807 these are the nuggets of goodness that i found about myself 00:45:52.807 --> 00:45:56.127 and then on the other side of the page i'm 00:45:56.127 --> 00:45:58.827 writing down the good or bad nuggets that i 00:45:58.827 --> 00:46:01.707 Got from how the content was conveyed by 00:46:01.707 --> 00:46:05.127 the instructor right and i i 00:46:05.127 --> 00:46:07.967 try to do my justice to the instructor and say after the 00:46:07.967 --> 00:46:10.607 class in a private format like hey here's what i 00:46:10.607 --> 00:46:13.367 see and what was effective and what i 00:46:13.367 --> 00:46:16.247 think could have been a little bit better and how you presented the content 00:46:16.247 --> 00:46:19.527 and that has always been very 00:46:19.527 --> 00:46:22.407 well received by the instructors i've taken 00:46:22.407 --> 00:46:25.607 classes from and that's the one thing that's 00:46:25.607 --> 00:46:28.787 the one consistent thing that i've noticed from trainers 00:46:28.787 --> 00:46:31.987 effective trainers is that they're always open minded 00:46:31.987 --> 00:46:35.547 they're always open minded to finding a 00:46:35.547 --> 00:46:38.687 better more effective way of honing 00:46:38.687 --> 00:46:41.827 their craft right so i think 00:46:41.827 --> 00:46:44.527 that that and that's kind of at least to 00:46:44.527 --> 00:46:47.587 me goes hand in hand with the shooting community 00:46:47.587 --> 00:46:50.467 like we're all here even though we could be fighting like cats 00:46:50.467 --> 00:46:53.547 and dogs on a match we want to beat each other but we're 00:46:53.547 --> 00:46:56.427 also the first people like oh dude you ran out of ammo here's 00:46:56.427 --> 00:47:01.827 some ammo or here's a gun or right i see you walking by that target dude don't 00:47:01.827 --> 00:47:05.687 forget to shoot that target you know that kind of stuff like we're our best 00:47:05.687 --> 00:47:11.727 cheerleaders even though we're our hardest fought enemies on the range if that 00:47:11.727 --> 00:47:16.147 makes sense and i think that that sportsman mentality 00:47:17.418 --> 00:47:22.498 Transitions into the training environment as well. So that's one of the things 00:47:22.498 --> 00:47:26.158 that I really like about the shooting sports is that, you know, 00:47:26.278 --> 00:47:32.178 for the most part, it's, it's very genuine people that have each other's best interest in mind. 00:47:32.558 --> 00:47:36.298 And if we go into any kind of thing that we're doing on the range, 00:47:36.478 --> 00:47:41.078 whether we're, we're doing a training for somebody or we're getting trained 00:47:41.078 --> 00:47:43.058 from somebody, if we have that mindset, 00:47:43.378 --> 00:47:48.318 we're going to be in a receptive mindset, if that makes sense. 00:47:48.938 --> 00:47:53.678 Yeah. Well, so opening that up in a broader sense, 00:47:54.018 --> 00:47:59.318 I think this kind of cuts at the core of what this is all about, 00:47:59.398 --> 00:48:03.158 I think, for all of us, regardless of instructor, trainer, 00:48:03.398 --> 00:48:06.898 or someone that doesn't even remotely think of themselves as, 00:48:07.078 --> 00:48:10.818 like not even in the smallest sense, they're like, no way, I'm not a teacher. 00:48:10.818 --> 00:48:13.378 I'm not a trainer. I don't, you know, I'm just a shooter. I just do the thing. 00:48:13.758 --> 00:48:21.558 Um, and that is having a insatiable desire to learn. 00:48:22.898 --> 00:48:27.598 Like if, if you care about getting better, um, which I mean, 00:48:27.698 --> 00:48:30.778 you're here, if you're listening to the podcast, I'd like to think that's because 00:48:30.778 --> 00:48:35.438 you, you care enough to learn something to make yourself better in some way. 00:48:35.658 --> 00:48:42.038 Um, if that's the case, then make it your habit, make it your lifelong pursuit. 00:48:43.238 --> 00:48:48.678 And not even just in shooting. I think just even, we could think real big picture here. 00:48:49.138 --> 00:48:55.418 If you want to enhance your life in any way at all, then just have a insatiable 00:48:55.418 --> 00:49:01.938 desire to learn where you are just always interested in what can I learn from this? 00:49:02.038 --> 00:49:06.798 What can I learn from that? This source, that source, this topic, that topic. 00:49:06.918 --> 00:49:10.118 You know and that's. 00:49:11.396 --> 00:49:15.196 Which, you know, coincidentally, I just taught this last weekend, 00:49:15.196 --> 00:49:20.556 we did kind of an introduction to competition shooting course at the Guardian 00:49:20.556 --> 00:49:23.056 Conference. And I've taught that almost every year. 00:49:23.496 --> 00:49:27.736 I think it's a wonderful way to get people kind of get their feet wet because, 00:49:28.076 --> 00:49:33.256 you know, usually they haven't dived into competitive shooting because a lot 00:49:33.256 --> 00:49:35.496 of times they don't know where to get started. They don't know what they don't know. 00:49:35.776 --> 00:49:38.996 Maybe there's some anxiety there, whatever it is. 00:49:38.996 --> 00:49:44.816 And so it's a super laid back, low commitment way of like, hey, 00:49:44.936 --> 00:49:47.596 here's here's an introduction to competitive shooting and you're going to shoot

00:49:47.596 --> 00:49:51.256 your first stage like ever, you know, and it's going to be a lot of fun. 00:49:51.956 --> 00:49:57.376 And I but I titled that course this year, the best thing you could do for your 00:49:57.376 --> 00:49:59.336 shooting skill or something to that effect. 00:50:00.556 --> 00:50:05.776 And if it wasn't obvious to the students that attended, I explained it later on in the class. 00:50:05.916 --> 00:50:09.876 Like the reason I called it that is because when you start doing this and you 00:50:09.876 --> 00:50:11.936 start having fun and you want to have more fun. 00:50:12.396 --> 00:50:16.116 And even if you don't care about being like the best in the world or the best 00:50:16.116 --> 00:50:20.516 in your state or the best in your community, but you just, but you enjoy it 00:50:20.516 --> 00:50:23.876 and you want to keep doing it and, and be good at it. 00:50:23.876 --> 00:50:29.376 It creates this desire to learn more about it. 00:50:30.418 --> 00:50:34.438 And at least it has for me, and I've seen that in many other shooters over the 00:50:34.438 --> 00:50:38.458 years, that they can even be quite stagnant. 00:50:38.498 --> 00:50:41.698 We see this a lot of times with law enforcement officers that get into competitive 00:50:41.698 --> 00:50:44.318 shooting, Charlie, where they've 00:50:44.318 --> 00:50:48.958 probably been pretty stagnant as a shooter, as a cop, for a long time. 00:50:49.578 --> 00:50:52.798 Because, no offense, I mean, I was a reserve cop. 00:50:52.798 --> 00:50:57.158 Uh i i understand the mentality i understand what goes with the job enough to 00:50:57.158 --> 00:51:03.958 know that you can very easily achieve a certain skill level in that profession as a shooter, 00:51:04.998 --> 00:51:07.838 and just kind of maintain that it's it's 00:51:07.838 --> 00:51:10.838 good enough um and then 00:51:10.838 --> 00:51:14.638 the box is checked right exactly and 00:51:14.638 --> 00:51:17.538 then and then for whatever reason maybe it's because their buddy is like hey 00:51:17.538 --> 00:51:21.018 man come come shoot this match with me or whatever they showed up they show 00:51:21.018 --> 00:51:25.098 up at their first match ever and they're like yeah i'm like the i'm like the 00:51:25.098 --> 00:51:29.618 top guy at my local department i mean i pass all my quals with perfect scores 00:51:29.618 --> 00:51:31.558 i'm even an agency instructor whatever, 00:51:32.178 --> 00:51:38.278 and they show up in their first match and it's like oh what did i just get into because. 00:51:39.618 --> 00:51:43.758 Here's a here's a dentist that is like or 00:51:43.758 --> 00:51:47.298 a real estate agent or whatever you know a 00:51:47.298 --> 00:51:50.438 janitor at a school it doesn't even like that is 00:51:50.438 --> 00:51:53.478 just crushing my soul with you 00:51:53.478 --> 00:51:57.038 know here i thought i was a good shooter and uh 00:51:57.038 --> 00:52:03.398 i clearly have a lot to learn and and so my point is is

then you see some a 00:52:03.398 --> 00:52:06.538 lot of times if they can stay with it if they don't immediately get turned off 00:52:06.538 --> 00:52:11.818 from you know the idea of making made to be being made to feel bad about their 00:52:11.818 --> 00:52:14.198 shooting skill as a as a top cop, 00:52:14.438 --> 00:52:17.678 then you see them start to grow and progress. 00:52:18.258 --> 00:52:22.118 And I think a lot of times because they've, they've had this whole world like 00:52:22.118 --> 00:52:27.338 opened up to them of, wow, there's a lot more to explore here. And all of a sudden, 00:52:28.491 --> 00:52:32.671 There's more to learn and there's an interest to learn of, oh, hold on. 00:52:32.771 --> 00:52:36.531 I thought I knew this stuff, but clearly there's, there's more to learn. 00:52:36.631 --> 00:52:39.231 And, and then you, next thing you know, they're kicking your butts, 00:52:39.491 --> 00:52:41.091 you know, a couple of years down the road. 00:52:42.191 --> 00:52:43.991 It's been really cool to, to see. 00:52:45.691 --> 00:52:49.591 I, I, I just give, you know, one example. 00:52:49.791 --> 00:52:54.831 I remember meeting Quinn Cunningham years ago and just a cop, 00:52:55.031 --> 00:52:57.731 you know, function, you know, like kind of being aware of him. 00:52:57.731 --> 00:53:03.191 And just knowing he was a cop, but then like seeing, you know, 00:53:03.511 --> 00:53:06.351 how, well, how good he became as a competitive shooter. 00:53:06.711 --> 00:53:11.411 It's like, okay, that's a, that's really, really cool and really impressive to see. 00:53:11.711 --> 00:53:15.111 Um, and many, many, many others have done that and not just meaning to make 00:53:15.111 --> 00:53:17.531 this about cops because it could be for, for anybody. 00:53:17.811 --> 00:53:21.151 Um, but, uh, yeah. So anyway, 00:53:21.271 --> 00:53:25.911 some, some thoughts there and i just think having that interest created within 00:53:25.911 --> 00:53:31.371 yourself to get out there and try new things and learn new things i think is 00:53:31.371 --> 00:53:37.431 is key for shooters key for instructors key for those that want to do well in 00:53:37.431 --> 00:53:39.191 their jobs and in their life in general. 00:53:39.191 --> 00:53:42.031 Absolutely i think it's 00:53:42.031 --> 00:53:45.211 all i think that the whole like going to 00:53:45.211 --> 00:53:49.031 your first match or two or ten and you 00:53:49.031 --> 00:53:52.271 know getting a sobering result right like 00:53:52.271 --> 00:53:55.911 i i think that the thing 00:53:55.911 --> 00:53:59.671 that's a little bit abnormal to me about it is the when 00:53:59.671 --> 00:54:03.211 these people attend when anybody attends a match there's 00:54:03.211 --> 00:54:09.351 not a heckling section and on your squad like there's not like everybody is 00:54:09.351 --> 00:54:15.831 there if you're safe and you're enjoying yourself everybody is treated the same 00:54:15.831 --> 00:54:19.991 if that makes any sense so like there's not like a you know 00:54:21.182 --> 00:54:24.062 Like ostracization of somebody because they can't 00:54:24.062 --> 00:54:26.922 perform on the range or those kind of things 00:54:26.922 --> 00:54:31.022 like i think a lot of that um oh 00:54:31.022 --> 00:54:36.882 i'm not good enough or i just got beat it is really an ego thing with the individual 00:54:36.882 --> 00:54:44.542 right right so i think that if if we want to learn and we got to pop the wheelies 00:54:44.542 --> 00:54:48.962 and we got to fall and wreck and scrape our knees we got to really set our ego aside 00:54:50.022 --> 00:54:55.982 right you're going to leave the ego at the door because if you're only expecting 00:54:55.982 --> 00:55:00.262 to perform perfectly on everything that you do you're never going to grow your 00:55:00.262 --> 00:55:05.582 skill set skill set and that's like you said that applies to anything we do 00:55:05.582 --> 00:55:08.962 in our life not just firearms right so 00:55:09.602 --> 00:55:14.222 i think that if step one if people can kind of set aside their ego and have 00:55:14.222 --> 00:55:16.802 an open mind of, let me try this thing. 00:55:17.042 --> 00:55:20.542 Let's, you know, run it like a rental, see what happens. 00:55:20.922 --> 00:55:25.802 Right. And try to see at a faster pace, try to run our appendages at a faster pace. 00:55:26.142 --> 00:55:33.902 Um, if our ego is always in play, we're never going to give ourselves the failure grace to get there. 00:55:35.802 --> 00:55:42.362 Right. Yep. 100%. Well, we're kind of coming up against the hour mark, 00:55:42.502 --> 00:55:47.882 which is usually where we try to keep things too so as an opportunity here uh 00:55:47.882 --> 00:55:53.922 to do so i'm going to ask if you were to summarize in you know three points 00:55:53.922 --> 00:55:58.562 uh our discussion here tonight and kind of some things you'd like to leave folks 00:55:58.562 --> 00:56:01.482 with or maybe some final words of parting advice what would that be. 00:56:01.482 --> 00:56:06.842 I think it's as simple as this really teach yourself how to fish 00:56:09.042 --> 00:56:12.202 right like a lot of people come to classes to be 00:56:12.202 --> 00:56:15.102 given fish yeah there's a 00:56:15.102 --> 00:56:19.422 like we all need to be given fish at points in time right in our life right 00:56:19.422 --> 00:56:24.142 like how do i do this freaking thing i don't know right but the more you can 00:56:24.142 --> 00:56:29.282 teach yourself how to fish right putting on that instructor hat and figuring 00:56:29.282 --> 00:56:33.102 out how do i do this process how would i tell somebody else how to do this process 00:56:33.822 --> 00:56:36.742 That's the path to success, I think. 00:56:38.962 --> 00:56:39.682 Awesome. 00:56:41.662 --> 00:56:47.482 Wonderful advice. I appreciate you and for making for making some time for us this evening. 00:56:47.782 --> 00:56:51.782 And, you know, even in a busy schedule, you just got

done running the state 00:56:51.782 --> 00:56:53.322 championship recently. 00:56:53.482 --> 00:56:58.122 And of course, you got work and family life and lots of things going on. 00:56:58.222 --> 00:57:00.642 But you made some time for the podcast tonight. So thank you for your time. 00:57:01.162 --> 00:57:03.482 Yeah, thanks for having me on, Riley. I really appreciate it. 00:57:04.162 --> 00:57:07.362 Yeah, I hope, folks, you're able to take something away from this. 00:57:07.362 --> 00:57:12.402 And, of course, if you'd like to reach out to Charlie and learn more from Charlie 00:57:12.402 --> 00:57:18.502 Perez, including taking a class, you can go to BigPandaPerformance.com. 00:57:18.702 --> 00:57:25.362 Highly recommend reading his book, The Path of Focused Effort, which is great. 00:57:25.602 --> 00:57:31.302 I mean, it really breaks things down in Charlie's framework, the way he views things. 00:57:31.302 --> 00:57:36.862 And I think it's a really solid framework and is just another one of those perspectives 00:57:36.862 --> 00:57:42.262 that can really enrich your own personal journeys to mastering shooting. 00:57:43.902 --> 00:57:48.322 It's readily available and also quite affordable. So, and you do something kind 00:57:48.322 --> 00:57:51.282 of unique, at least I think you still do this or require this, 00:57:51.402 --> 00:57:55.882 but with your, like your two day, you know, 00:57:56.782 --> 00:58:01.622 big panda performance class or whatever it is you call it, you basically make 00:58:01.622 --> 00:58:04.622 students buy and read the book before you come to your class. 00:58:04.622 --> 00:58:10.622 I mean, that's a requirement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I try as much as having 00:58:10.622 --> 00:58:16.822 students read that book preceding the class at a minimum puts us on the same vernacular. 00:58:17.502 --> 00:58:21.342 Right. There's no specific skill set that is like, oh, I don't know. 00:58:21.422 --> 00:58:24.562 What is what are you talking about? Like you're talking about fuzzy bunnies or whatever. 00:58:24.842 --> 00:58:31.142 Like it really cuts down on the unknown, like absorbing unknown content from 00:58:31.142 --> 00:58:35.402 a fruit. Like they may not fully understand the depth of the content, 00:58:35.422 --> 00:58:38.682 but that's not a foreign piece of content. That makes sense. 00:58:39.826 --> 00:58:44.166 And in case that, you know, scares anybody away, trust me, it's worth it. 00:58:44.246 --> 00:58:46.026 It's worth, it's precisely what I did. 00:58:46.146 --> 00:58:51.586 You know, I took your class, read your book and got a lot from that and got, 00:58:51.586 --> 00:58:55.066 I mean, and got even more from the class because as you already know, 00:58:55.726 --> 00:59:00.046 reading the book beforehand and getting the vernacular and just sort of putting 00:59:00.046 --> 00:59:05.986 myself in your frame of mind and how you view things, teach things, explain things. 00:59:05.986 --> 00:59:10.206 Then it just set me up for, for having a successful class. 00:59:10.646 --> 00:59:17.046 And I think you probably can see and probably can tell students that say they 00:59:17.046 --> 00:59:19.706 read the book and, and, and didn't actually. 00:59:20.306 --> 00:59:20.786 Sure. 00:59:23.386 --> 00:59:29.626 But those that do that and take a good faith effort in that regard, get a lot out of it. 00:59:29.706 --> 00:59:33.926 But anyway, lots to be learned from taking training with Charlie. 00:59:34.126 --> 00:59:38.686 So big panda performance.com. A reminder of our sponsors of tonight's episode 00:59:38.686 --> 00:59:46.946 were GuardianNation.com and some other links I mentioned earlier were also GuardianConference.com 00:59:46.946 --> 00:59:48.346 to learn more about next year's conference. 00:59:48.486 --> 00:59:52.446 You missed this year's, folks, but next year, I mean, every year just keeps 00:59:52.446 --> 00:59:53.206 getting bigger and better. 00:59:54.046 --> 00:59:59.366 One of the things that was really reassuring to me and to our team from this year's event was. 01:00:00.198 --> 01:00:03.058 Was uh i mean we had some people there at the 01:00:03.058 --> 01:00:06.678 fifth annual guardian conference that had been there all five years we 01:00:06.678 --> 01:00:09.618 had some that were there for you know their fourth year their third 01:00:09.618 --> 01:00:12.518 year their second year um there were there 01:00:12.518 --> 01:00:15.558 were a couple people i talked to that were at the 01:00:15.558 --> 01:00:18.638 conference for the first year and then 01:00:18.638 --> 01:00:21.818 this was this year the fifth year was their second 01:00:21.818 --> 01:00:24.618 time so that you know they basically missed you know three years in between there 01:00:24.618 --> 01:00:27.518 uh and i remember them making the comment 01:00:27.518 --> 01:00:30.758 of wow it's like so much better than 01:00:30.758 --> 01:00:33.678 you know the first year and the first year was great you 01:00:33.678 --> 01:00:36.918 know it was good i mean but it was the first year and you know we were we were 01:00:36.918 --> 01:00:40.878 learning uh all kinds of lessons and doing something like that for the first 01:00:40.878 --> 01:00:44.018 time and even from those that have been there every every year for five years 01:00:44.018 --> 01:00:49.198 it just so reassuring to hear the comments of it just keeps getting better uh 01:00:49.198 --> 01:00:51.378 you guys keep working at it and keep making it better, 01:00:52.118 --> 01:00:54.958 you know and that is something that's important to us putting on 01:00:54.958 --> 01:00:57.898 that event i know that something is important to charlie 01:00:57.898 --> 01:01:00.578 to make himself a better instructor it's important to me 01:01:00.578 --> 01:01:03.618 to make myself better instructor uh that's just something i 01:01:03.618 --> 01:01:06.498 think that hopefully all of us have a desire to do with life 01:01:06.498 --> 01:01:12.518 in anything in life is to is just to improve um i think it's i kind of feel 01:01:12.518 --> 01:01:18.218 like life is not very much worth living charlie if we don't actually try to 01:01:18.218 --> 01:01:24.218 get better at all the things that we do heck yeah i suspect you feel similarly so you got to. 01:01:24.218 --> 01:01:26.138 Have some kind of enjoyment in life you know 01:01:26.138 --> 01:01:27.438 Yeah figuring. 01:01:27.438 --> 01:01:30.138 Out things out and having success is one of those things right 01:01:30.138 --> 01:01:37.198 It does bring joy and satisfaction so anyway great lessons here tonight thanks 01:01:37.198 --> 01:01:42.538 again for your time charlie and uh hope to do again sometime with you so until 01:01:42.538 --> 01:01:46.398 next time folks a reminder to train right train often and train safe so you 01:01:46.398 --> 01:01:49.418 can fight hard fight fast and fight true take care, 01:02:03.338 --> 01:02:05.878 a reminder that laws vary from place to place and we encourage listeners to 01:02:05.878 --> 01:02:08.858 seek local legal advice to understand applicable laws concealed carry inc its 01:02:08.858 --> 01:02:11.078 brands and properties and the concealed carry podcast is not a legal service 01:02:11.078 --> 01:02:13.578 nor are we attorneys at law we make our best faith effort to share concealed 01:02:13.578 --> 01:02:16.238 carry related insights and information about firearm related incidents and the 01:02:16.238 --> 01:02:18.918 laws pertaining based on our own understanding and experience but things can 01:02:18.918 --> 01:02:21.238 be different where you live or laws may have changed by the time you listen to this. 01:02:21.398 --> 01:02:24.218 We cannot be held liable for your actions based on the information shared in this podcast. 01:02:24.638 --> 01:02:26.538 Please exercise care with all things pertaining to firearm use, 01:02:26.718 --> 01:02:29.158 concealed carry, and always practice following basic firearm safety rules. 01:02:29.398 --> 01:02:32.518 More information about safety can be found at concealedcarry.com forward slash safety.