Fuld transskription af Surviving in a Post Apocalyptic World

following like the rules of the road and then he's like, Wait, why am I doing that? There's no one around and Kate: Yes. Mm-hmm. Theresa: that just that theme just continues throughout most of the book, especially when Kate: Yeah. Theresa: he's traveling by himself. Kate: So that Theresa: So Kate: leads to our next question, I think, pretty automatically. did you guys like the book? Teresa. Theresa: So I'm gonna say yes and no. Yes, because the book, The Premise, is so interesting. It's so intriguing, especially because he is so isolated from the world, and then he just sort of comes out of this illness that he doesn't realize is something that's ravaging the world, and everything is just so different for him, and there's no one around. And it's like people were just snatched off the face of the planet, and he's just alone, and then he starts to travel. The the thing that I struggled with in the book is the the actual main character's personality. He's not very pleasant. I did struggle a lot with some of his really, really superior inner dial dialogue, where once he does start coming across people, he definitely thinks that he's better than everybody. so I yes, the book, the premise is really and the writing was really well done. it was one of those things where it was a quick It was quick to read for me. Like it was a page turner. I just Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: was struggling with the main character, so and how about you, Kate: Yeah. I mean Theresa: father? Kate: yeah. Well I I enjoyed the book, obviously because I'm the one that picked it. Theresa: Yeah. Kate: I like the observational character, especially in the first half of the book, that Theresa: Mm, mm. Kate: Ish was looking around and realizing, this is changing because this is no longer happening, Theresa: Right. Kate: and so on. So the second half didn't appeal to me as much, but Ish gets kicked off his high horse. You know, the Theresa: He does. Kate: the writing when making him an unpleasant character was on purpose. and it was part of the storyline to get Ish to realize basically at his death that it doesn't really matter. Earth goes on. Mm-hmm. Yeah, his ideas Theresa: Right. Right. Kate: that he held so dear at the beginning were were meaningless in the new world, worthless in the new world. Theresa: Where his ideas Yeah, his his idea is that he's so important in all of this at the beginning, you Kate: Yes. Theresa: know, that he has that he's been the one that has survived. Kate: Mm. Theresa: suddenly at the end of the book, No, the world's just gonna keep turning, no matter what. So mm-hmm. Kate: I if I'm here or if I'm not here, things worked out. Yes. He had plans to save the library at at Berkeley and Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: that was going to be the great way to make remake civilization. Yeah. So yeah, he was a Theresa: Right. Yeah. Kate: he was a high on his high horse. That's it. Theresa: Yeah, yeah, he is. But interestingly, I agree with you that the first half of the book is

the part that really intrigued me the most. And then yeah, it does taper off for me, but even though his personality starts to improve through in the second half. So Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Theresa: how about you, Kate? What did you think of the book? Kate: I enjoyed the concept of the book. I enjoyed thinking about what I it prompted me to think about what I would prioritize at essentially the end of the world or the restart of Theresa: Yeah. Kate: a new world or the start of a new world. I found Ish very difficult to like. I tried really hard. especially when he announces at the beginning of the book he doesn't like dogs. I was very insulted. I think I Theresa: yeah, that's right. I forgot about that. Kate: texted Teresa, what? I don't like this character at all, or something like that. Theresa: Yeah. Yeah, you said you didn't like him and then I I I texted back, Is it because he doesn't like dogs? Kate: Which it partly was, but he comes to really like a dog. So you know, that was Theresa: He does. Kate: red redemptive for him as well. But I found overall the book very enjoyable. It was an easy, not an easy read, but it was a quick read. The language Theresa: Right. Kate: was really good. the author, the way he wrote, I enjoyed. and even though I found Ish less than enjoyable, it was a reminder that I don't have to like characters in order for it to be a good book. And I did enjoy the concept of it being more of a character study and that we really got to dive in deep and figure out who Ish was, and see things from his lens, which would not have been mine. 'cause I, as Theresa: Right. Kate: we've talked about before, do really enjoy those character things. Theresa: You do. You do like character studies, For the next question, what was this genre and writing style of the book? Kate: I would say this would be post-apoptolithic science fiction. it's interesting because it leans more, I would say, on like anthropology, geology, psychology than science necessarily. I mean, it does lean in some on biology, but you get all of those in with it. But it takes the theme of what's now a popular sci-fi trope and uses like rounds of all the different sciences. And I enjoyed that. There are interludes in the book. from I don't know if it's an all knowing narrator, if it's from a book someone writes about this time period in the future, but you kind of learn what's going on in nature and around the world. And that was very interesting. So and I would say I don't know if post apocalyptic fiction was a thing prior to the nineteen fifties. I'm guessing it wasn't. So this was very he was groundbreaking. He was groundbreaking? Theresa: It yeah. At the in the introduction, the genre is called an after the fall novel. Kate: And stressing. Theresa: And then later it's recategorized as post apocalyptic. So yeah. Kate: Okay. That's kind of biblical after the fall. Theresa: Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: So that also kinda makes sense the time period. did you agree with the her genre definition, father? Or what did you say? Kate: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I I was using the term utopian. Mm-hmm. But I think that's through Theresa: Mm-hmm. Okay. Kate: my mindset of my old college class. Which makes sense. Yeah. I Theresa: Right. That Kate: like the author's side comments. it you know, they're in italic, so they're easy to see. And I almost thought of them like a Greek course. They're emphasizing points and Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: kind of driving some things home. Yeah. I wonder how that is handled in the television show. Those were things I had never considered and it went way more in depth into any sort of novel I'd read that does similar things. And it really showed where the author had researched, which was interesting. Theresa: But this also led me to not quite knowing how to categorize the writing style. So the writing style is third Kate: Mm. Theresa: person, but you're from the point of view of just one character, but with those interludes. And I didn't know what that's called because I'd never seen anything like that before. So Kate: Right. Yeah, it was like a mixture of third person with like a omniscient narrator. I'm not sure. Theresa: Yeah, I don't know. Kate: Very interesting. Yeah, it was something I a literary device I had not seen. So and Theresa: Yeah, same. Kate: I listened to the book. So I actually went out and looked at his copy to see what in the world was happening when all of a sudden we were going along from Ish's point of view. And then we had like all this stuff Ish couldn't have known about like dogs, what was going on with the world Theresa: Right. Right. Kate: of dogs. So Theresa: Yeah, that's Kate: So Theresa: true. Kate: all right. Did the book focus on character, action or both? We've kind of answered a little bit about this, but Teresa? Theresa: I would definitely say it mostly focused on character, but it focused on his actions and what he was doing when he learns about this devastation that's hit the world and then and what he does and his thought processes and how he thinks that he should be handling it. So it's sort of character, but also his actions, Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: his thought process for why he's doing these actions too. Is very important, I think. So I definitely, definitely character focused though. Because as you get further into the book and his is getting older and older, he's doing less and he's thinking more. So Kate: That's so true. That's so true. That's a good observation. Theresa: then you have a lot more of his inner monologue as well. So what did you think, father? Kate: I think there's four major characters. Of course there's Ish the person, but then you also Theresa: Mm, mm-hmm. Kate: have the hammer. The the hammer is a character throughout the book, first chapter, last chapter, and maybe not everyone in between, but lots of It had a definite role to play. You have the plague's impact on the earth. And this was especially in

the first half, the observation and lots of time spent on developing how the earth, how the San Francisco area changed. And then the last one, I would think, is society. The society that developed out of the tribe and how it did carry things forward. And so that development is running through Isha's thoughts all the way through. And finally Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: you have this final development there. Takes off on its own and outside of ish. Yes. Yes. Yeah, Theresa: yes. Kate: that's true. It was multi character. I yeah, I hadn't thought about that, Theresa: That yeah. Kate: but Theresa: I hadn't thought about that either, but that is very, very true. Yeah. Kate: Yeah. I was surprised how character focused it was at first because I expected Theresa: Mm, okay. Kate: it to be really action-filled because it was an end-of-the-world post-apocalyptic novel. But I Theresa: Set up, right? Kate: found the premise of taking it mostly from a character very interesting. And I felt like it was mostly focused on character. There was some action, but very little, surprisingly, for it being For it being the end of the world. Like I expected lots Theresa: Right. Kate: more trials and tribulations. but instead, Ish manages to live a really normal life, which is why we're a little are able to hear his dialogue and things like that, kind of like the Mallow's hierarchy of needs. Theresa: Mm. Kate: because he was meeting his need of food and shelter with things they scavenged, Ish is able to theorize and think and philosophize. So it Theresa: That's true. Kate: was very character focused, which was very interesting. Theresa: Yeah, but also I I liked it because oftentimes you do read those of post apocalyptic where there's multiple characters and you're jumping around a lot and there's so much action. And instead, it's like you are in your own head where you're not focused on all of this action. You're just focused on your own thoughts as you go on through your life. So Kate: Yes. It was very realistic to how maybe in Ish's position, even if you weren't thinking the same thoughts that he was, you would be focused on you. I think Theresa: Right. Yeah. Kate: if you s look at all the dialogue in the book, it probably takes ten, twenty percent of the book. Rest Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: of it is the narrator, the inner dialogue that ish is having with himself. Yes. Theresa: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. what was the plague and how did it affect the people of the world? Kate: So they never really expressly stated what the plague was. I thought that was so Theresa: Is it? Kate: interesting. They never even went into detail about the symptoms because the plague, while important, because it started the book and led to the chain of events that we're experiencing through Isha's eyes, isn't the main Theresa: Yes. Kate: isn't the main theme of this novel. The main theme is what happens after a world-ending event. the plague itself directly, like Kate said. But you see is the effects of it.

You know, you you have the parts of town that he wouldn't go into because that's where there were still bodies. yeah, you still had the water flowing and he went into a lot of detail about why that continued to happen for a long time. That's a little bit Theresa: Yes, yeah. Kate: unique to San Francisco area, I think, but you know, that was something that continued, but it eventually stopped as a result of the plague, killing off the people who no longer took care of things. Mm-hmm. And I think Theresa: Right. Right. Kate: you mentioned that it was like ninety nine point nine percent of the population was killed from Theresa: Right. Kate: this plague, which is extremely important for the premise of this novel. he was so alone, so extremely alone, and there was such a small group of people that he had to join up with, and he was extremely particular about the people he joined up with. So the fact that the plague killed so many people, I think, was one of the most important components to this disease. Theresa: Right. The only thing that I mentioned was he gets sick at the very beginning. He's Kate: Yes. Theresa: bit by a rattlesnake and he gets sick. And he thinks that he has he has the plague, but the rattlesnake venom has helped him survive. I mean, he he contemplates that for a while. and basically the only symptom that we get is that he is very, very feverish. Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: So but other than that, yeah, we really don't we don't know anything about the illness. Kate: No. Even when he even when he reads the newspapers to see what happened to the world while he was isolated up in this cabin, we don't learn really what the symptoms were. Was that part Theresa: Yeah and Kate: of the author's time period? Yeah, today we want to have all the ghoulish blood and gut stuff on TV, but back Theresa: Right. Kate: in the forties, I don't think you had that. And so he Theresa: Right. Kate: handled it very discreetly. I think that could be it. And also think it also goes towards what he thought was most important. Yeah. Because he did Theresa: Mm mm. Kate: not think that the plague was the important part. The horror wasn't the important part. He wasn't a Michael Creighton who was writing to show you what that plague was like. Instead it's post plague. Yes. Mm-hmm. Theresa: Right. Right. Yeah. what the one of the things that I thought was so interesting is that he does run into people the entire time he's driving across the country and none of those people are sick. no one is suffering in any way. It's like they had almost complete immunity and were Kate: Yes, Theresa: just l holed up, living their lives wherever they happen to be at. So I thought that was interesting too. Kate: It was a very quick illness that swept through and killed everyone it was gonna kill and left survivors who were gonna survive. Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I almost wish that there was a little bit more on how qu like how long had it been since he was last in town and knew for

sure when people were there alive before he goes back. Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You s speculated he could have only been sick about four or five days or so. I mean hydration Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: would be an issue. If he was sick longer than Theresa: Right. Good point. Kate: three or four days, he'd be totally dehydrated and probably kill him. Mm-hmm. So it was very, very Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. Kate: quick, the breakdown. Part of the story was though he had been up in the mountains quite a while researching for this Theresa: Geology, is that right? Kate: geology and he was looking at the resources of this particular valley in the mountains. So he was taking samples, Theresa: Mm-hmm. Okay, that's right. Kate: he was observing, working on his PhD thesis, I think. so he he had been up there and isolated for quite a while. Theresa: But we also know that he does have some contact with civilization 'cause he does talk about the town and talks about you know, his parents don't live too far away, so Kate: Yes. Right. Yes. which is very interesting because what ends up happening is ish is from Berkeley, I believe. Yes. And he ends up going home to his childhood home and living there the rest of his life, even though he could have chosen anywhere in the United States. He chose his childhood home. I thought that was very interesting. Theresa: Yeah. it's so it's so weird that he he's like, my parents aren't here and then we don't really contemplate that anymore. Kate: He was a little bit emotionless. He didn't seem very in touch with a lot of those emotions, which he writes down as a pro, I think, kind of at Theresa: First. Kate: first for why he can survive. Theresa: Which I mean, okay, that is some people's reactions. So just like if I just shut it down I and not deal with it, that's how I'm gonna survive and keep going. So Kate: It feels like a very nineteen fifties reaction, to be honest. Well, he did contrast that with some of the other survivors in the first part of the book. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there was the Theresa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: alcoholic, if that's what we want to call the guy, drank himself to death. There was the Theresa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Kate: girl that ran away from him like a deer. There was the couple in New York who really were not going anywhere and he thought was gonna die. What did he call them? He had a name for them. Was it the second dead or yeah, I wrote that down. the Theresa: yeah. Kate: second secondary kill. The secondary kill. I thought that was very interesting. And he ends up living with one of probably. Because it's very likely Edie had just had severe PTSD, could have had severe PTSD. Yeah. But these were people that Theresa: I thought you might Kate: maybe weren't killed by the plague, but they were killed by the impact. on society, whether it was the PTSD and the shock of not being able to live without society, or just not taking any steps forward like the couple in New York, as compared to the the the black people in Mississippi, wherever that was at, who were already growing crops, they were banded together and creating a new Theresa: She was pregnant. Kate: That's right. She's Theresa: Yeah. Kate: pregnant already. Yep. Theresa: One of the things that he also notes that he thinks benefits him is that he was not present when it happened. So he Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: his shock over it isn't quite as bad as probably everybody else's, because everybody else watched it happen and he basically woke up and it had already happened and Kate: He didn't he miss the visceral horror of the disease and watching your loved ones be killed. Theresa: Right. Yeah. Kate: Which did protect his mind, probably some. Yes. So Theresa: Right. Yeah. Kate: we've talked about this again a little bit, but I think we can get pretty more we can get a little more in depth. But when was the book set? Was it before, during, or after the disease and plague that wiped off the majority of the population? Theresa: So I wrote I wrote during ish because it's clearly happening at the beginning when he has that one person who sees him and sees that he's sick and and leaves and they're like, Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: no, but he doesn't know that the there's a plague going on, so he doesn't know what's going on. Kate: Right. Theresa: And then there's some people in a truck or a van or something that drive away from him. and so that's obviously happening during the plague, but of course most of it is after. The whole point is what would happen. In a post apocalyptic world basically. So yeah, that was my answer. Kate: Yeah. I approach this as a time. Okay, book was published in nineteen forty nine, so you know it's written in the mid mid forties. But then if you just look at the book itself, you can deduce that it is before the eighties when we had the communications revolution coming in, because he went down route sixty six. And not an interstate. It's before the interstate system was created in the late 50s, early sixties. there's no talk about the Soviets, there's no talk about nuclear war. So that puts you in immediate Theresa: Yeah. Kate: post-World War Two period. He did talk about World War Two and the Depression. Yes. Yeah, the time period was very relevant to the book because if it had been Theresa: yeah. Kate: any later. which it could have been of course when it was written, but we would have had the internet, right? And we would have had to contend with what happened to the internet and all of that. And if it had been any earlier, we might not have had some of the the technology that he did have. So it was very important, like what years it was set in. I think Theresa: Yeah, I Kate: sorry. Theresa: if it was like the sixties, I think he would have called his tribe a commune or something 'cause it was more Kate: Right. it was also important, I think, because he ends up calling himself the last American. And so Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: this sense of patriotism and very much in touch with the glory

of America I thought was very nineteen fifties, late forties, post World War two. Theresa: Post World War Two, right. Like we've just had this huge victory and we this is amazing. I did find that so interesting because they're they're still on American soil. So why wouldn't, you know, the people his descendants also be American? Why wouldn't he call them that and then continue that on? I I didn't understand that. Kate: I I think he viewed the collapse of the government. We can assume the government collapsed, even though he didn't go all the way to Washington DC, as he viewed that they could no longer be Americans because there was no longer a government of the United States of America. So he had been an American Theresa: Okay. All right. Kate: living in in the land that was America and now it's a new land and a new people without that's that's governless. My thought was slightly different. But it was the plague. It it cut the time in half. It's before plague, after plague. And the after plague, all the things that made us American didn't matter anymore. You know, it didn't matter that we had Theresa: True. Yeah. Kate: a flag. It didn't matter we had a president. It didn't matter that we had in City Hall even. Yeah. So Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: it gets to the same place, but slightly different focus. Theresa: You know, I will say that sometimes I do think in those terms. I'm like, before COVID, after COVID. Kate: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yes, that's very true. yeah, we didn't have quite the change in living conditions that Ish experienced, of course, or the shocking death rate, although it was a shocking death rate itself. We can't like minimize that. But I think before COVID and after COVID, I think a lot of people do. Yeah, I do. and you can also Theresa: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Kate: point to certain Historic events before and after nine eleven, before and after Theresa: Yes. Kate: Kennedy's assassin assassination, before and after World War Two, Pearl Harbor. Yes, yes. It's Theresa: For and after Pearl Harbor. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kate: a split and there's something about that in the American in any psyche that just kind of views Theresa: Yes, yeah. Kate: a globally traumatic event as before or after. So I Theresa: Yeah. Definitely. Kate: also wanted to mention that the book is set like In the immediate aftermath of the plague, right? So, but then we also jump ahead 20 years to see Ish Theresa: Okay. Kate: and his what he calls the tribe living and trying to make a life. And at that point, they're mostly scavenging and making do with what they can find in the city around them. And then we skip ahead. Again, maybe another 20 Theresa: I mm-hmm. Kate: years, I'm not sure. it's probably more forty. Forty years. Okay, Theresa: Yeah, I thought it was thirty forty, Kate: to where Ish is an old senile old man and we view the Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: tribe again through his eyes. So, Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: and where they have expanded, they've grown, they've integrated some more

people of other bloodlines, and they are no longer just scavengers but hunters. And so I thought that was really significant, the fact that we see all these different stages of life. Throughout post plague world. Theresa: Yeah, I agree. I think that's a good distinction because it could be confusing if you say this is just after the plague and it could just be somebody driving around seeing the devastation of a plague, but it's more than just immediately after the plague. It is decades after the plague as well. Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: So you really see what the world is doing after the majority of the planet has died. So Kate: Yeah, which I know other books have taken a similar approach, but it's interesting to think this might have been the first one. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Theresa: One the first ones, yeah. I agreed. Kate: I was trying to decide how old Ish was when he died. He was in his mid twenties w when the plague happened. We know that there was about twenty-two years with the tribe. and then it just kind of goes on where his great grandson is an adult. So Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: he's gotta be eighty, ninety years old. Theresa: Right. Kate: Really interesting description of s senility. Yes. Ac Yeah, I actually yes, Theresa: Yes, I thought so too. In fact I was getting anxiety. Kate: I actually thought that was one of the most well done parts of the book. Because of course we can't know what being senile is, right? But we can guess. And I felt he really put you in the mindset of someone who has Alzheimer's or is suffering from dementia. And it was incredibly visceral and I don't know if it's accurate, of course, but it felt accurate. It felt very in tune with in people I've seen suffering from senility. Theresa: there's this scene in there during that where it reminded me of my grandma when she first started living with us with dementia, she would tell me that some mornings she would wake up and expect her husband to be next to her, even though he'd been dead for over 40 years, you know? So yeah. Kate: Yes. And he woke up and expected his wife to be with him. Theresa: Mm-hmm. Exactly. the main character has some very specific priorities at the end of the world. What were they and what would your priorities be? Kate: Alright, well, Ish's priorities, it seemed to be were foremost finding other survivors, which I found very interesting. He set out immediately to try and find other peoples. Of course, he satisfied his need for food and protection. He found there were lots of cans everywhere. So he always had food wherever he went. he had transportation, he had protection because of a dog he befriended, and he had a rifle and a gun, and he had that that hammer. along with him as well. which we haven't talked about the hammer yet. Theresa: It's too bad the hammer wasn't named. Kate: We haven't talked about the hammer yet, which we'll have to. he seemed to think in terms of survival as finding other people. And it was just very interesting to me because he

really didn't prioritize what I would have prioritized, which I'll go into that. One of my first priorities would have been to find people. We naturally are humans who want companionship and need companionship. And it's easier and less scary to live, I imagine, in a terrifying world when you have companionship. But I would hope I would have been focused on long term survival a little bit more. And maybe not Theresa: Yeah, right. Kate: just surviving on scavenging cans. I would hope my priorities Theresa: Well Kate: would be like building a making a garden and establishing some livestock and things like Theresa: Livestock. Kate: that. And I'm not sure I would have gone back to my home that I grew up in. Maybe I would have. Who knows? But I like to think that I Theresa: Comforting. Kate: would have had different priorities than Ish. And I like to think that I would have also, once I was settled down, read more than Ish. Ish seemed to I was surprised he didn't take advantage of that library. I'm sorry. I was. I was. Well Theresa: Yeah. I know me too. Kate: he said he was saving the Berkeley library for Re-establishing civilization. But he was using the local public library to read books out of okay. I miss that. Theresa: Mm. Yeah, like when like when M's pregnant and he's learning about, you know Kate: That's how I learned how to do child learning. Yeah. And he took Joey to the library and introduced him to that. That was just the public library. Yeah. Okay. I missed that. Yes. Because I Theresa: Mm. That's true. That's true. Kate: was like, I would have read all those books. Yeah. It sounded like they Theresa: Yeah. Kate: were readers to some extent. What about this, there Theresa: yeah, what priorities? Kate: there's three stages in the book. First off is is Isha's response in observ observing to looking around what's going on, trying to understand what was happening. You know, and that's why he drove across the country and he would see these sheep that were being hunted by coyotes or wolves or whatever. And that's when you get a narrator's note saying, these are all going to die because they're too close to man. But so he had this observation period. Then you have the middle part, which was the forming of the tribe. He he meets and shortly afterwards he meets Ezra and George and their wives, and then they start having kids, and they they're carving their the year number in the rock, and which is interesting because that rock is really there. I looked it up. There's a park in Berkeley. That has this big rock formation. And he lived real close to that. The the author lived real close to that. Okay, cool. Theresa: Interesting. Ha, that's cool. Huh. Kate: and then the third part is when he starts going more sea Nile, M's gone, eventually Ezra's gone, and he just kind of this fog and the society is flourishing even though he didn't do anything. And you know, so I saw that Theresa: Special. Yeah. Kate: as being the The progress of the book and Ish was

very laid back, Kate pointed this out, that they weren't very proactive in learning how to do things. Instead, those things came naturally. You know, once the food started going bad, yeah the the cans of food were twenty, thirty years old and you couldn't rely on them feeding you safely. So instead they started using their bows and arrows, though the gunpowder was going bad. and so despite Isha's best efforts, what came about was all natural by happenchance. You know, Theresa: Right. Kate: one of the parts that had stuck with me out of the book all these years was how they learned to use bow and arrows. And that was just a game. It was just a game at first. And it was just a little Theresa: Right. Right. Kate: snippet out of the book, but it stuck with me all these years, four years Theresa: Right. Kate: later. Or more of that. Yeah, so you know, he did have priorities, but they weren't necessarily what we would be thinking about in terms of surviving. Well, they had their houses, they had a food supply, they had power and water for a long time, and once they didn't have the water, they dug wells. Yeah, they they only responded to a crisis to create new they weren't proactive. yeah, to create new Theresa: Right. Kate: sources, resources. What do you think you would have prioritized? Shelter and food. he did talk about trying to butcher was it a cow? Yeah, I I I at that Theresa: Cow. Mm-hmm. Kate: point I was like, I'm not I think I would be a vegetarian at the end of the world. Theresa: And I was so confused because he specifically took the liver. Like he wasn't going for some of the better parts of the cow. Kate: Right. Did he just think you could eat liver raw and not get sick? no, because he fried it or he cooked it. But maybe Theresa: No, he fries it, he cooks it, yeah. Kate: because all the nutrients are there? Nutrients and growing up in the age he grew up in, the liver was eating a whole lot more than we do today. but yeah, if you want to talk about the most nutrient part of the cow, you're talking about the liver and the heart. Which are things we don't eat. No. Theresa: Mm mm. Mm. Yeah. Kate: Yeah, that part was probably to you as a vegetarian even more disturbing. Mm-hmm. I No. Yes. The TV show probably will. Yeah. Theresa: Yeah, I was like, mm-mm mm mm I I mean he doesn't go into a whole lot of detail, thank goodness, but yeah, probably. Especially since that's a fairly recent TV show. Kate: What about you, Teresa? Theresa: I actually sort of did the same thing Father did with the priorities. So I thought his priorities they definitely shift as the book goes along. Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: I did not I didn't view his first priority to be finding people. His first priority Kate: Really? Theresa: is No, I h I to me, his first priority was to see what's going on. Like he's when he first leaves and he's in the town, he's just looking around. He finds that newspaper that's two weeks Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: old, which means that yeah, the devastation had to have happened really quickly because that p newspaper's only two weeks old. And then of course he goes to look for his parents. And then it's like he's just trying to cope. With the his new reality and not necessarily that he's looking for people. Sure, while he's in cities, he honks his foreign sometimes trying to find Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: people. And then when he doesn't really find people he likes, he doesn't really actively look for them anymore, but he still drives all the way to New York and back to California. So I d I did not see that his first priority was looking for people. Kate: That's so interest I wonder if I sort of projected what I what Theresa: 'Cause that's what you would do. Kate: I'd be like, I'm not living this life alone. Theresa: Because he gets back to California and he settles down and he spends a long time not looking for anyone. And then finally he finds But he there is a a pretty big gap of time, it seems like, where he's just settled down by himself and he's and yeah, he's not I think so too. Yeah, Kate: Yeah. That's true. A couple of years maybe. you think it was years? Mm-hmm. Theresa: I think it was a few years. So yeah, so I but then then later. He has he has and then his priority I think definitely shifts to building that tribe and he really, really focuses on the fact that he's the leader. So I Kate: Yeah, he does. Theresa: think his priority then becomes being a leader for the tribe. And I have to hand it to him. he he does try to be a good leader. You know, his priorities aren't what my priorities would be because they are just eating those cans still and everything and I would definitely be trying to garden and things like that. But when he sends some of the guys out to the country to look for other people, he's trying to set them up for success. And so he's has their best interests at heart. And Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: then as as we recognize later in the book much later in the book, he does realize that no matter what, the earth is just gonna go on. But yeah, I think that his priorities do definitely shift from from section to section of the book. So Kate: Yes. Neither one of you guys ever mentioned the episode where he has a panic attack. Yes. because he feels he's so alone in the world and it just kinda sweeps over him. And he was driving out Theresa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: in the desert, I assume it's Central Valley, California, and he has this panic attack, and that was a part that I didn't really like reading. I don't know if it's because I didn't h want to have those feelings. Or I was just bored with it, you know, but but I thought that panic attack was a d development in his character as an observer. You know, he realized Theresa: Mm-hmm. Yes. Kate: that he didn't he didn't have to carry things forward, but he wanted to observe and see what it was. He let Theresa: Yes. Kate: go of something with that panic attack he internally, but he also literally let go of the extra precautions

he'd taken. Like he had a dirt bike Theresa: Yes. Kate: on the back of his car or motorcycle on the back of his car. And he Yes, Theresa: And he'd packed all those things into the car as well, but Kate: just in case scenarios. And he decided to let them go, which it kind of foreshadows the rest of the book. I felt like in that you guys talked about, you got both mentioned that he ends up learning or deciding that he just has to let things develop as they come. He can't steer fate or society or the future. And I felt like that was the first time he like he gave up some of that contr tight control he was holding on to. Theresa: Right. That's a good point. Yeah. Kate: All right. Theresa: Alright. Kate: Alright. So what problems did the characters face and how did they deal with them? Well, I came up with a lift of nineteen things of what he faced. okay, Theresa: Okay, all right. All right, let's go. Kate: first off, he survived the snake bite and the plague. Okay, so that's the first hurdle that he had to overcome. Then he had to find out what happened about civilization and overcome that shock. Then he starts exploring his home community, San Francisco area. and that's where he ran across the guy that was drinking himself to death and the like. And then he went over Theresa: That was sad. Kate: to UC Berkeley in that library and thinking about how important it was. it was pretty important that he used the hammer to break into that library. then as he was trying to explore, he had that panic attack we just talked about. He explored the US, went all the way to New York and came back. Okay, cause right there. Why didn't he go to DC? This is one of my questions, because DC was the seat of government. Was it because in the fifties New York was such a central loc localized location? Well, yeah, New York was capital of the world, the financial capital of the world. And he talked about going Theresa: He yeah yeah, he tal he does talk about that, yeah. Kate: down there, but by then it was like, Yeah, why bother? And Theresa: Yeah, 'cause there was something about once he's in New York, he he he's reflecting on like he's made it he's made to the big center of the world basically. Kate: Yes. Theresa: And I think that was always his goal. He wasn't looking for the government. I think he was looking for where the mass of people should be. So Kate: Right. Which where else but New York? And his observation was that the New York skyscrapers area, Manhattan, there weren't going to be people or even animals for a while except for the birds, because it was such a desolate place, so much concrete, so much covered land. it wasn't good for anything but the birds. Interesting. All right, sorry, continue. That's Theresa: Right. Kate: okay. then he settled it at home. This is period where he's alone, and then he finds and other members of the original group. then there was the medical issues. he he worried about being sick, breaking bones, the childbirth, later of measles.

and then so he's starting to see community, and he's teaching the kids. The hammer gets this superstition status to it. You can see how the community is starting to see that hammer as a symbol of authority. Then you had identifying his successor, Joey, and he just how much thought he had on how Joey would do all these things and be able to understand all this stuff. And within a short time, Joey's dead. And that brings Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: us then to Charlie. And Charlie is an outsider that brings in criminality, if you will. And disease. And disease. and the it's the first time the council took steps to protect the society. You know, they they executed Charlie. and he brought in that disease which brought the death of members of the community. and then you follow with despair th this probably is the emotional peak of the book. Yeah, he's in despair for Theresa: Mm, mm. Kate: society and culture, civilization. It's gonna go to pot, you know, that people aren't gonna survive, nothing happens. And then it slides pretty quickly through many more years, to where you have the next big event is losing Theresa: Mm. Kate: the wife, his wife, who's important secondary character. she evened him out a little bit. He I'm sorry, what? She evened it. Theresa: She did. Kate: She did, yeah. He was a she was a good counterbalance for him. She was a good foil for him. Theresa: There's good balance. Mm-hmm. Kate: I hadn't realized until I read some of the commentary on this, she's black. Yes, I caught Theresa: Right. Kate: that right. I missed that entirely. it talked about her Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: her dark skin and then brown hair. And I think I went to thinking it was more Hispanic, Italian, swarthy type complexion. but if since she was black, the author is doing a pretty radical thought for the late forties where they're integrating Theresa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: in marriage. I mean Marriage wasn't even legalized until the sixties. Between races. Between races, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Men and women are always Theresa: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kate: I read a a blog that said that he was very radical in having interracial marriage. But it was right. But Theresa: Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's not legal in most states for at that in forty nine. Kate: especially in the South. Yes. Yeah. Theresa: Mm. Kate: And That's still probably true. There's certain things that we hold over in our culture that probably will only go away when we die or over a great period of time. Okay, so then he lost him. He grew old, has the memory problems. We have this time before his death where he talks about them pinching his cheeks, asking where they should hunt, Theresa: Right. Kate: introducing him to Jack. the great grandson and how Jack was so different than anybody else. He wore the mountain s mountain lion skin and bows Theresa: Mm. Kate: and arrows and not rifles. And but he seemed to be ver Theresa: I had this like i image of Hercules when he was describing him. Kate: my image was more Last of the Mohicans. James Finmore Cooper. so you know, Theresa: yeah, okay, that makes sense. Yep. Mm-hmm. Kate: Jack is this person that he sees he's somebody that's gonna lead. It wasn't Theresa: Mm. Kate: under his presuppositions, it wasn't something that he created and forced like is what he was trying to do earlier. He Theresa: Right. Kate: Just identified it and okay, that makes sense. Yeah, but he'll it'll this work. And then you have Theresa: Right. Kate: the death which symbolically is on the Golden State Bridge, by the car that he saw in the very first chapter or two. Yeah. Theresa: When yes, because he's trying to force things with Joey. Like he's Kate: Right. Theresa: like, Joey is the future, and then Joey dies and he just can't quite get over that for the longest time. Like the future died basically in his mind. Kate: Right. No. And it was interesting to me it also recognizing Jack as the leader was it it seemed like he was recognizing that others had kind of gravitated towards Jack. It wasn't something he'd had manipulated like he'd planned to like bring Joey up as this leader. Right. he was recognizing that it was okay that Jack was not like Joey. Or like him, or more importantly, he Theresa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: wasn't like Ish himself. Jack was Theresa: Right. Kate: what the world and their tribe needed, not what sh wanted. What they had evolved into. Theresa: Needed at that time. Right. Right. Yeah. Kate: That's very good. I don't have any Theresa: Yeah, that is that is good. Kate: do you have anything to add to that, Teresa? Theresa: when it came to the k the problems that they're facing, I I a little bit I was a little bit more specific a couple of times. first of all, the the ants and the rats. Kate: yeah. Theresa: like so they they run into those issues, although other than having to try to keep them away from like where their their living area, they th they disappear both accounts, rats and ants. And then then another issue that they deal with later on is the plumbing issue. Kate: Yes. Theresa: And he talks about, I think he's talking about a bathroom at one point without running water in it because you know they don't have any running water anymore. he recognizes that they didn't take steps to understand some things that they might have needed if they wanted the comfort, the earlier comforts that they had before the plague happened, and maintaining them. then another issue that they run into in his mind, I'm gonna say this is in his mind, not necessarily an issue that I think is huge. It's Kate: Quite a few things that in Ish's mind they were big deals. Theresa: Right. And one of them is that the kids don't know how to read and this really bothers him. But Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: you also have to recognize he didn't make them learn how to read. So I mean, Joey has a knack for it and they what what did the other kids call him? Did they call him the reader? What did they call him? The year Kate: The year Joey learned to read was

important. Theresa: Yeah, that was right. That the year that Joey learned to read. I that was huge. That was huge for Ish. It was like, well, there's hope for the for society if somebody learns Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: how to read. there were these problems that Ish creates basically that weren't really ishes. And then there were the like big overall issues Kate: Yes. Theresa: like reforming society and you know, where are they gonna get their next meal when all of the cans are bad or have been eaten? So Kate: I the only thing I have to add to that was they had to face the problem of what to do with people in society who could not contribute or who Theresa: Mm. Kate: were maybe not mentally fit. especially in the case of Evie, who they talk about it could have been she could have become that way because of the shock of everything she saw, essentially PTSD, or she could have been born just not quite. functionally, mentally all there. And they have to decide, are they going to care for her? At one point it talks about euthanizing her, which was extremely disturbing. and so that was also a problem they had to kind of figure out and navigate. Theresa: he does bring up one point, we are a tiny society, what is she contributing? Kate: Mm. Yes. Theresa: And we're all just supporting her and she's not she's not there's no returns basically. Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: it felt very much kind of genocidal. So I was like Kate: Yes. I mean, they had the resources to support her. I I mean, I think the Theresa: They did. They did. Kate: argument could be different if they were starving and they needed every little bit of that positive addition to society to allow her to live. it's Theresa: Right. Kate: very cold, cold analysis. But you gotta remember this is the era of eugenics, lobotomies. Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: a lot of death penalty, Theresa: Yeah. Kate: discrimination, really bad. Mm-hmm. You know, so that Theresa: That is a good point. Kate: is a good point. We have to look in the context of of the author. Yeah. What the author mm hmm. and then you add World War Theresa: The time period. The t the author's time period. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: Two and the the Holocaust So one other item I think we've touched on, but I want to discuss a little more, and that is the fact that they the tribe couldn't get organized and do anything. Yes. The reading, the Theresa: I k that is so true. Kate: the refrigerator or the the freezer, they get a gas generator and didn't quite see the point of all that. But it was just a long standing argument and they were Basically sitting there abiding their time. Biding time. Theresa: Yeah. Kate: Yes, I wondered how they passed time because it did seem they did a whole lot. Yeah. Well Theresa: Yeah, see see the other thing that I thought i it felt like is like they were just getting more and more comfortable becoming more and more primitive. It was very strange. So yeah. Sorry, father. Kate: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So yeah, so that's the basic point

is they were falling into less and less civilized ways. Electricity failed. The food not the food. The the water failed. they didn't get gardens, so they weren't getting fresh veggies and v and and stuff like that. They had to hunt and they were getting more primitive. That that's a good way to put it. Yeah, it is. Theresa: Yes, when there's that conversation, I think it's I think it's with the great grandson Jack, about no one no one shoots guns. I mean, that's just, you know, that's Kate: Yes. Theresa: for that's for games or something like that. And he's like, the real skill is with the bone arrow. Kate: Yes. Yes. That was kinda cool. All right. Theresa: What was the overall lesson of the book? And just for a little bit of context, in our first episode, Get Well Soon, every single chapter had a s very specific lesson. So every Kate: That each plague brought about. Theresa: H plague brought about. So what was the overall lesson that we learned from this book? Kate: yes. I thought it's very, very simple for this book and for this plague. The overall lesson was that no matter what happens to the planet, life finds a way and Earth abides. It just keeps going. A secondary lesson we've talked a little bit about is that humans are Is it? Yeah. Is it? yes Theresa: That's very Michael Crichton of you. Life finds a way. Kate: it is. Yes it is. Knew it sounded familiar. I didn't write that. I played your eyeset. Theresa: That's funny. Kate: anyways, I felt a secondary lesson was that our control is very finite. We don't have a lot of control over things, and no matter Theresa: Mm, mm-hmm. Kate: what we do, life just continues. So Theresa: Yes. Kate: I felt it was a both a very pessimistic way of looking at the world and somewhat of a comforting one. I found it very double sided. Yeah. Theresa: Like a double edged sword, yeah, definitely. How about you, father? What do you think the lessons of the book were? Kate: Yep. Kate. My thoughts are very similar to yours. we mentioned earlier that if the author had lived twenty years later in the sixties, yeah, he'd have a commune or whatever. Here I think he would be thinking about Mother Earth, Gia, and how she Theresa: Mm, mm. Kate: is there and she's gonna take care of things the way she wants. And there is that still that type of thinking in the scientific community. that the earth is a singular environment and it reacts to certain to things we do, global warming, and there's consequences to it, but earth continues. Earth abides. You know, even we're gonna screw up the environment, life will continue. It may be different than what we see now, but there will still be life. You know, short of us doing a nuclear war and something really stupid. but so for me the overall lesson was the Bible verse that was uses the is it the dedication, the the the cover page. And then at the very end as well, you know, men come and go, but earth abides. So this is Theresa: Come and go. Mm-hmm. Kate: the pessimistic side that Kate mentioned that doesn't Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: really matter what I do. It's all Theresa: Right. Kate: gonna go forward. But the positive side, I think it is, is that it really doesn't matter if I fail, if I don't do this thing, life will go on, that life Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: will not end just because I don't pass this test or I don't get this boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, whatever it is that's going on in our lives that we think is so important. Theresa: I think I see that as positive. So yes. Kate: Yes. What what did you take away, Teresa? Theresa: So very similar to what you're both saying, but I also didn't want to leave out his tribe because I do think that in the end, one of the lessons that we can learn from this is that even as the world is falling apart around them, as they've lost everyone that they know, everything that they love, they form this community and they learn how to support each other. Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: In one of the chapters in Get Well Soon, there was the dancing plague, and the community Kate: Yes. Theresa: comes together and they support each other, and it's good to have that type of support, and it's good to be that type of support. Kate: Yes. Theresa: And M4-ish was that person I felt like. I think another important lesson was that. Ish that he could do better by himself and then in reality he did better with other people. Kate: Yes. Theresa: And I think that was also just good to take away is that as Kate said really early on in the episode, humans are meant to be with other humans. So we're social animals. Kate: Yes. Yep. We're social animals. There's a reason there's a reason on that Maslow's hierarchy of needs that community and connection is on there. Theresa: Hmm. That makes sense. Yeah. And I can't imagine Ish would have lived as long as he did if he didn't have that community and if he didn't. Kate: There's no way. His community cared for him into old age. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And did you Theresa: Yes, exactly. Exactly. So yep. Kate: notice when he talked about seeing he was just touch starved. Like not in any sort of Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: romantic way, but he Theresa: Right. Kate: wanted to be touched. And there is something to that. But he didn't go ahead. Theresa: Yeah, and and it sounded like that that wasn't something he was used to. Kate: No. I don't think he realized he needed it until he had it. Yes. Theresa: Right. Yes. Yep, exactly. Kate: Mm-hmm. Yep. So that actually leads into other significant characters and what roles they played in the main story in the in the story. Theresa: Right. so I we've talked about most of them already, actually, Ezra, Joey, but I want to focus specifically on and Ezra because Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: they are both really good balances for Ish's character. Kate: Yes. Theresa: And this is actually recognized by Ish himself. So Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: he and I think this is actually really unique for a book that was written in the nineteen forties. He is not the calm

one in the relationship. Cause usually, you know, Kate: Right. Theresa: women are the hysterical emotional ones. Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: And is not. She's very steady. She's a very calming Kate: Yes. Theresa: character for ish. And I thought that was actually enjoyed that, that she was like that for him. Now, in some ways, he was a little bit demeaning about it. He was just like, Well, she's too dumb to know any better. Right. Kate: She doesn't think as good as me. That was part of his unlikable part. Yeah. Theresa: Yes, but but at the same time he did recognize how good that was for him. Like he he Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: knew that. And he knew that when he started to have one of his his panic attacks, it seems like he had those, and was there for him and could calm him down and could talk him off the edge, basically. Then you have Ezra, who is I think he's supposed to be older than Ish, if I remember right. and he Is another member of the tribe and he's actually good with people. And they and Ish recognizes that he's not actually very good with people, but Ezra is. And in a way, they sort of have this like partnership leadership thing Kate: Yes. Theresa: going on. That I I don't think Ish could have been as good of a leader if Ezra wasn't there being a good leader of the people, basically. Kate: Yes. Theresa: So those are the two those were the two really significant characters that I think were good. for the main character and helped him along on his journey. So yeah. of course. I'm so Kate: I have an edition. Princess the dog. He well yes. Theresa: sorry. I I didn't write a single thing about a princess. I'm so sorry. Kate: didn't either. I did. I thought she was extremely important in those early years. She was like, she was the first companion. Mm-hmm. It was very symbolic Theresa: She was she was the companion, yeah. Yeah. Kate: that a dog was man's first companion in the post in the second in what did what did you call it? Post apocalyptic. No, you called it something different. After the fall, yes. I thought it was Theresa: the post apocalyptic or after the fall novel. Mm-hmm. Kate: very symbolic and appropriate that a dog was the first companion after the fall, so to say. and then she was But it was kind of a worthless dog. A little bit, but she created but she had but didn't she do what a dogs do today? It was a worthless dog in terms that it hunted, but it didn't catch anything. Right. But it was a good companion. But I think that's so Theresa: Right. Right. Kate: symbolic. Why why do we have dogs today? They're companions. And they aren't just there to work for most people. Some people do have them work, but dogs are at their heart are companions. Theresa: the way he traded the dog was kind of weird though. Like he Kate: It's 'cause he wasn't used to dogs, I think. Theresa: I mean, I guess, but I mean I I'm not used to dogs and I wouldn't treat Pippin that way, you know, so Kate: That's true. Also, it was very nineteen forties again. Theresa: see that was he would be like, you're misbehaving, I'm gonna lock you up in the basement for a few days. Okay, cool. Kate: Yeah. Okay. Did anybody else go? But what happened? She has to poop. Theresa: I know, I di I did think like he's still letting her out some, right? I mean, I hope. Yeah, I I Kate: Well, he was locking her in the basement 'cause she was in heat. Theresa: yeah, that's right. I forg And he didn't want puppies. Kate: And she didn't he didn't want puppies yet. He didn't want puppies. Or the other time he locked her in was when the rats were so bad. Yeah, he locked her in the house. Theresa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, cause a couple of rats chase her into the house. That yeah. Kate: Well, they were on our back. Yeah. And he was worried about the spread of disease. Theresa: Which is fair. I mean, w he when he jumps to the bubonic plague, I had already jumped there. I was like, man. Yeah. I was like, man, speaking of pandemics, Kate: Had you? Yeah. Theresa: but yeah, I don't know. I that character the princess didn't stick with me like other dogs have in books. So but I couldn't figure out what she was. Is she a beagle? Kate: Yeah. Theresa: Okay. Well I got that right. Kate: Okay, I have another character. Yes. Okay. Theresa: 'Cause he does he doesn't talk about it, so Kate: The hammer. yes, the hammer. The hammer Theresa: yeah. Man, the hammer. Kate: is the most important character to me, or at least the one I like the most. it was there at the very beginning. It was on the second page of the book, all the way up until about the fourth page from the end. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: and maybe not mentioned every chapter, but it's mentioned in probably three fourths of them. And it became Theresa: Yeah. Kate: the symbol of The new civilization. He used it to break indoors and he used it for protection. And he used it as a symbol of authority and it became superstitious. And eventually he passed authority and leadership by giving the hammer to Jack. Mm-hmm. You Theresa: Right. Kate: know, so the the hammer was very important. it stayed in Isha's home until the final fire. Theresa: Right. And when the fire's happening, he's like, Where's my hammer? Where's my hammer? And they have to go they have to go run in and get the hammer. Mm-hmm. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Somebody runs in. He finally embraces the power the hammer has after Joey dies because for a long time he resisted the superstition around the hammer, but he finally gives into the fact that the hammer is meaningful to so many and it does mean something. It's the closest It's the symbol of authority. Yes, it's the symbol of authority and it's the closest thing they have in this new world to a god. I think. Theresa: I I was just about to say, I feel like the whole superstition around the hammer is how myths are created, you know? So like over Kate: Yes, yes. It's very Thor like. Theresa: the over the years, like five hundred years down the road, somebody's gonna have turned

this into this really giant story of, you know, Isherwood and his hammer. Kate: Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yep. That brings up a quote that I was going to bring up about religion. and this was I think talking. All I know is that we did what we thought best. If there and they're talking about his eyes, as George says At least we did wrong only because we were as God made us, and I do not think we should set traps. Let us not bring all that back into the world again. The angry God, the mean God, the one who does not tell us the rules of the game and then strikes us when we break them. Let us not bring him back. That was one of the most meaningful passages to me in the book, to be honest. You know, part of civilization is the religious side. I mean, there has not been a civilization ever that didn't have gods. You can even talk about our society that doesn't have gods per se, at least not one that's worshipped by everybody, but we certainly like the trappings that a god has power, money, influence, those sort of things. So in a way that's God to us. Yeah, very true. Theresa: Yeah. Kate: Right. Theresa: Alright. father, did you have anything else about the book that you'd like to add? Kate: overall, I think we've touched on all the significant subjects. it'd be fun to get into the discussion about why certain things died away, the sheep, for example, and why other things thrived. why Theresa: Right. Kate: did the ants and the rats come up and those things like that. But overall we've covered the big points. Yeah. Theresa: Right. And then just disappear. Mm-hmm. do you think you would survive this okay. Kate: No. Absolutely not. Nope. I think I could've. Theresa: Okay. Yes. So Kate: I mean, I had enough camping experience and stuff when I was younger, which I didn't allow you to have, I guess. that I think I could make do. no, I think it's more my mental fortitude. I just don't have it. I just don't have it. Theresa: okay. Okay. Kate: I would I would give up. but yeah, I think my mental fortitude is just not there and I take a lot of antidepressants and I need them. Theresa: That's when you break into all those pharmacies that are no longer being manned. I actually I said that yes. That if I had happened to survive the plague, because I'm convinced my health would wipe me out. So if I happened to surv have survived the plague, I think I could survive. I really do. Kate: I think you could too. You're pretty resourceful. Theresa: I yeah, and the things that I considered priorities that Ish obviously didn't, things like gardening and stuff, I mean Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: I could do that. I I would I could gather a couple of cows for milk and get some chickens for some eggs. Now he does mention that he hasn't seen any chickens, so maybe not that, but still. Kate: Chickens were one of things that died because they were too close to man. Theresa: Right. And I know that sheep can only survive with men, which he does talk about. And corn, is one of the few cereal plants that or grains, Kate: Yeah, serial. Theresa: guess grains, yeah, that can only survive with humans. I our version of corn at least. So yeah. Because he talks about the wheat disappearing. I'm like, I don't know. I think wheat at least would start to replant itself some, but I guess if you don't recognize it. Kate: What but it would be pushed out by the native plants and it might thrive Theresa: True. Kate: like on the edges of fields and stuff, but it needed the Theresa: Good point. Yeah. Kate: right conditions. Theresa: Yeah, that is a good point. I mean, maybe in a different part of the world, but I do note just a little bit later on that it's so interesting that we only focus on the US, this whole book. Kate: Yeah. Yes. I mean I think part of that was because there was no co way to contact the rest of the world, but also it was very I felt representative of the very American first, American only Americans the best nineteen Theresa: That's see, that's how I saw it. Kate: fifties. I mean, how would the book have been different if instead you were in Kenya or South Africa or Vietnam? Theresa: Right. Kate: We haven't Theresa: Right. Kate: decided yet if we're going to read station eleven, but they focus on other parts of the world. Mm-hmm. Theresa: that makes sense. Yeah. I'm curious about it. what Kate: Yeah. Theresa: was going on? What was going on over in in England? What was going on over in Mali? Like what's what's happening, Kate: Yeah. there's a book called On the Beach by Neville Shute and it's about nuclear war and it's a nuclear submarine and they're going around trying to figure out who survived. And they do look at a couple different countries. I know Australia and San Francisco again. So interesting. Theresa: Hm. Interesting. That is interesting. Kate: Alright, here's our quotes. what significant moments and or quotes stood out to you? Theresa: because I'm so terrible at quotes, I don't actually have any quotes. the thing that really stood out to me that it it's not a moment, it's more of a section of the book, is when he's traveling because he is trying to figure out what's going on and he's contemplating like how things or how like the landscape is going to change without human intervention and the animals that will survive without human intervention. And it goes into my personal love of research. and wanting to know those answers. And so I I really enjoyed this section of the book where he's traveling to New York and back. Well, mostly to New York because he's pretty much back in New California right away. But regardless, and that does bring me up to bring up the point where I was wondering, while I understand he can't drive to Europe or drive to Africa, he could drive to Canada. He was in New York. Kate: Mm, Theresa: He was in New York City. Kate: mm-hmm. Theresa: New York City is a few hours away from the border of Canada and he never ends up going there. He never goes to Mexico. So I thought that was I thought that was

really interesting that he didn't do that. But I did enjoy all of his inner monologue and those little interludes of observation of Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: what's going on in the country as he's driving around. So that was that was the section of the book that stood out to me. But as Kate knows, I am not a quotes person. Kate: No you're not. It's like pulling teeth to find your quotes. It does Theresa: And that I'm dad with ghosts. Kate: not surprise me that the travel stood out to you either. Theresa: Yes. And that was also another thing. I would I would be like, I can just go anywhere. It's not gonna cost me anything. Kate: There's no crowds in the museum. Theresa: Yeah, exactly. I can walk into any museum, any library. Are you kidding? This is great. Exactly. Kate: Yeah. You can even touch the exhibits. With your trusty hammer. Yes. That's how you get in. Theresa: I'm telling you that hammer needed a name. Kate: Tá rendo? Theresa: All right. Father, what were your quotes? Kate: I've got three of them and one of them I found very humorous. page seventy-four of my book and seventy five. this is when he was thinking about the the couple in Arkansas, Louisiana, wherever that was. and this is one of the narrator sections. of half a million species of insects, only a few dozen were appreciably affected by the demise of man, and the only ones actually threatened with extinction were the three species of the human louse. So ancient, if not honorable, was this association that had been used as an argument for the single origin of man. Anthropologist noting that all isolated tribes scratched and picked at the same parasites, and therefore inferring the original ape man must have carried the original insect insect ancestors outward with them from their point of dispersal. going a little bit further. Feeling their world grow Theresa: Humans are the problem. Kate: cold. They crawled off in search of some new warm world to inhabit, found none and died. Billions perished most miserably. At the funeral of Homo sapiens, there will be a few mourners. Canus familiaris, as an individual, will perhaps send up a few howls, but as a species, remembering all the kicks and curses, he will soon be comforted and run off to join his wild fellows. Homo sapiens, however, may take comfort from the thought that it that at his funeral there will be three holy sincere mourners. And the three was the three forms of life. Three forms of life. I thought that was really funny. Theresa: That is pretty funny. I I would Kate: A bit disturbing. Theresa: I would assume, Kate, I'm saying this for your benefit, that dogs would mourn us if we were gone. Kate: Mm hmm. I was he said canine canis Familius. But I am inclined Theresa: he said canine. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Camille. Kate: to believe dogs wouldn't have reverted back to the wild quite as quickly as they did in this. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to think Yeah, Theresa: Quickly as they do, yeah. I mean they're looking for food. Kate: I'll we'll

we'll You need to go read some Jack London. No thank you. It's a good story. Is that the wait Call of the Wild. Call of the Wild. Yeah, I do want to read that. That's on my list. Mm-hmm. It's a good story. Theresa: You've never read Jack London? It is a good story. Call of the Wild? Okay. I was like, what? Kate: No, that is on my list. That is on my list. Theresa: Just no no old yeller, okay? Just Kate: I've read it sadly. Okay, my next one Theresa: Yeah, anyways. Kate: is about the library in the future. This comes at the very end of the book. this is when he is very old and they spend the night there at the steps of the library in Berkeley. Nearly all of his volumes, the whole record of mankind, would probably be still available. Available for whom? Ish did not try to answer the questions that rose so spontaneously in his mind. In some ways the rules of the game had changed. He would not say whether they had changed for better or for worse. In any case, the library, its preservation or its destruction, seemed to make very little difference in his thoughts now. Perhaps this was the wisdom of old age, perhaps it was only despair and resignation. Yep. Theresa: Yeah. Kate: Kind of encapsulates his strive to keep civilization alive. Okay, and last one is the very last page. he's dying and he knows it. And so he had looked to the past and to the future. What did it matter? What had he accomplished? Now certainly it made no difference. He would rest and he would return to the hills, and they in comparison at least with the passing of man's generations, remained without changing. And then jumping down, yet I also commit them to the earth. There is nothing else by which men live. Men go and come, but earth abides. Yes. There we go. Earth abides. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Theresa: Yep, there it is. The title in the book. All right. Kate, what's your quotes? Kate: Well, father stole several of mine. Theresa: Sure. Kate: when I had them marked in the book. It probably, yeah. but a few moments that stood out was the end. We talked about this, his descent into senility and just that vivid picture, and then also when father mentioned this, but that panic attack when he realizes how alone he is, and then overcoming that. But for me, quotes they the African Americans he'd happened upon, had really solved the situation better than he. He was living as a scavenger upon what was left of civilization. They at least were still living creatively close to the land and in a stable situation, still raising most of what they needed. So Theresa: And yet he still felt superior to them, which is so odd. Kate: He did, and he still felt superior, and it was like, Come on, ish. Theresa: Yeah, and and he was right. They were living better than him. Kate: And they probably overall had a better quality of life by the end. Yeah. Yes. Then the Pueblo Indian type people in New Theresa: Yeah, because they were well it sounded like they were farming and stuff. Kate: Mexico. So he does Theresa:

Mm. Kate: kind of go back later and answer the question and and they were surviving very well, but they were in a very fertile area of the country. Which again, I would have moved. He could move. Theresa: Right, yes, because w where were they? Were they like Mississippi or something? Where were they? Ark Missouri Kate: Arkansas Deep South. Yeah, it was the deep south. Theresa: okay, okay. Yeah, of course it's fertile land, so there's moisture unlike Kate: Yeah. Somewhere where they were still farming cotton. And they and they worshipped an alligator named Theresa: And he's a he that's true. Kate: Old Satan. Yes. Yes. I thought it was very bayou. Yeah. Theresa: I love that actually. That's hilarious. Kate: my last quote was the people in who live in any generation do much, he realized, either to create or solve the problems for the people who come in the generations later. And that's true. We're dealing Theresa: That's good. Yep, that Kate: You're dealing Theresa: is good. Kate: with the problems your generation is dealing with the problems of your parents and we'll deal with the problems of our parents. And if we had children, they would deal Theresa: And so on and so on. It's Kate: with the problems of their parents and it just it's a cycle. It continues. Theresa: It always happens that way. Kate: Yes. Theresa: And then later generations always have to turn and point their fingers at older generations. And it's like, okay. Just the Yep. Yep. Kate: Exactly. And it's just just like the earth abides, it's a circle. It keeps on going. So all right. Theresa: All right. This is now this is the one where Kate struggles and I do well. Kate: I s always struggle with this question. I have to search and search and search. But Teresa hears music Theresa: That's actually pretty funny because Kate: in her head when she listens, when she reads. Theresa: I do, I yeah, I do. and then I'll get really stuck on a song in even if it doesn't actually make sense and I'm like, I'm going with it because it's the song that I was thinking of. Kate: What do you got this time for us? Theresa: All right, so for the song that gave me the same feel for our lesson, basically, Kate: Mm-hmm. Theresa: is Weave Me the Sunshine by Peter Yarrow, by you know, Peter, Paul, and Mary. Kate: Mm-hmm. I love that song. Theresa: Because it made me think that they are trying to build society out of nothing. He's weaving sunshine out of rain. And basically the society is trying to weave themselves. together out of the remnants that remain. So that's the song that I kept hearing. So yeah. Did you come up with one, Kate? Kate: I did and I actually it just occurred to me. Turn, turn, turn by the birds. Either yes, Theresa: Okay. Yeah, that actually makes sense. Kate: either that or Ecclesiastes. Yep. I think I'm going with that one and not not my Theresa: Yep, yep. There is a season. Kate: other one I wrote down 'cause it's kinda lame, so Well We're going with turn, turn, turn. Yeah. Theresa: Th

y you gotta get into some of them oldies, am I right? Like Kate: We're going with turn turn turn. Well, I couldn't really come up with anything. don't know why, but I turned to Stairway to Heaven, Led Zeppelin, which Theresa: Okay. Kate: yeah, doesn't really fit. But Theresa: Hey. Kate: now when you came up with your example, I was thinking about the old Coca-Cola song. I'd like to teach the world to sing. I hate that song. We had to sing it in music all the time. What song is that? It was the Coca Cola song. It r it was written by Theresa: Hey but if but if it's a song that that yeah you know that Kate: Barry Manilo. Was it really? Theresa: Really? I didn't know that. Kate: He was a jinglesmith. That's how he got started. He he wrote jingles. Theresa: I I didn't know that. That's fantastic. Very manila. Kate: That it it kind of fits actually. we're gonna kinda sum up everything. what would you rate the book, Teresa? Theresa: I wrote six point five. How about you? Kate: seven seven point five. Nine. Really? Theresa: Okay? Nein. Kate: I really this is a book that has stuck in my head for forty almost forty five years. That's impressive. Theresa: at least you didn't do the Chris thing who was like, I'm not gonna rate the book. Do you remember? Yeah. Kate: Yeah. No, I was gonna write it. That's impressive. It's one of my favorite books. I'm glad we covered it with you. Theresa: Yeah. No, it was yeah, I know that I harped on how much I didn't like Ish through through definitely a mo the majority of the book. But overall I'm very pleased that I read the book. Like I thought it was so interesting. Kate: I am too. I I think it's a really valuable addition to our series, actually. I me neither. I never would Theresa: And it's not one that I would have picked up on my own. Sorry, go ahead. Kate: have picked it up. I could take the book with the first half until he meets and then Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: wait until he's almost ready to die. When he gets senile. Theresa: Yeah. Kate: Cut out that whole middle part and I'd still be happy. Yeah. Theresa: Yeah, yeah, I have to say I despite what I said about the lesson being community is important, I could have gone without the tribe scenes. I'm like, Yeah, exactly. Kate: It was in there for a point though, that community is important. Theresa: but I think that is everything. Okay, is that everything? Kate: Yes. Yes. Thank you, Father. You're welcome. For coming on. We really appreciate it. This was great. I enjoyed it. This was great. I really Theresa: Okay. Yes, thank you for joining us. Yeah. Kate: appreciate it. I'll start thinking about my next book. Okay. You have like five people to go through. Okay, well Theresa: Yes. And and then that could be the inspiration for that season, so. Kate: That season, yes, you inspired our season. We can go with other favorite books, Centennial by Mitchner. Theresa: I've never never read it. Mm mm. Kate: Gotta skip the first hundred page. dear. Nope. Because that is boring. And then once you get past the prehistoric part, and when I say prehistoric I mean dinosaurs. it w it moves along pretty good. It's it's typical Michner. Theresa: I could read dinosaurs. No, I like dinosaurs. sorry. Kate's like, absolutely not. If I have to skip the first one hundred pages. Kate: And and well, a major character, probably the only character that goes all the way through that book, is Long's Peak. Theresa: Okay. Kate: Teresa has no idea what to say to that. Theresa: I don't but we read Earth Abides and I enjoyed it, so you know yeah, yeah. Kate: Who knows? Who knows? Good point. So Theresa: and also I got like two hundred and fifty pages into a distant mirror and I was enjoying it, I will say. Kate: I got about the same distance. I liked it too, but it wasn't very plaguish. Theresa: It's yeah, and it's yes, that see I was noting that. I was like we're into the cultural stuff a lot. and it's so d so long. I was like 650 pages or something like that. Kate: I was so intimidated. I was so intimidated. It is one of the few popular history books on that era. There are no other good ones Theresa: Mm. Kate: that aren't very academic. Theresa: Right, right. And it was written in the seventies, if I remember right. Kate: Yep, Tuckman. She was one of the first pop history people. The other book Theresa: Mm-hmm. Kate: that covers that era was written around nineteen ten, nineteen fifteen. It's Theresa: Okay. Kate: still the textbook for that era, and I used it in Theresa: That's wild. Kate: college back in the seventies. Theresa: Alright, maybe that's what I should be focusing on is the fourteenth century. Because apparently Kate: No. There's an opportunity. Theresa: p because apparently yeah, people aren't really studying it that closely. Well. Kate: All right, should we wrap up, Teresa? Theresa: Yep, let's wrap up and let Father go charge his phone. Kate: Yes. All right. So thank you for listening slash watching our podcast this week. And we will be back in two weeks with our next book, which as of right now, Tristan, I don't know what that is. Theresa: When it is, but please leave comments below and let us know what you would like us to read. Kate: Yes, something plague and pandemic related, please. So Theresa: Yes. Kate: please like and subscribe. And we'll see you next time. Bye.