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From ABC, this is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.
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Hello.
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Before we start, I want to remind everybody that we're
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running a big discount at the 10% Happier app. This app,
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There's a whole team of amazing people, dozens of us
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who work really hard on this app. We're constantly dreaming
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up and sustain a meditation practice and then apply it
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Check it out.
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Okay, our guest this week is has seemingly been trying
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to prepare us for this pandemic for years through a
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series of very popular books with titles such as When
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Things Fall Apart, Welcoming the Unwelcome, and The Wisdom of
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No Escape. But as you're about to hear, Pema Chodron
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is anything but gloomy, even though the titles sound a
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little gloomy. Like all the great meditation teachers, I've had
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the good fortune to encounter. She has a real lightness
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and a sense of humor about her, as you will hear.
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That said, notwithstanding her chipper demeanor, she has worked really
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hard to point out to her readers and her many
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students that groundlessness and uncertainty are fundamental facts of life,
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which are, as we all know, becoming increasingly salient in
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our current crisis. Pema Chodron is her name. As I said,
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she was born Deirdre Blumfield in Connecticut. She lived a
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rather conventional life, going to UC Berkeley, becoming a schoolteacher,
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having a pair of kids. But after a rough divorce,
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she found herself adrift. And during that time, she discovered
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Tibetan Buddhism and ultimately shaved her head and became a nun.
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She's now in her mid-80s. She lives in rural Nova Scotia,
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where she's the director of Gampo Abbey. And we connected
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with her via old school landline. So you'll hear that
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in the audio. We talked to her about a bunch
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of things, including how to actually, as she recommends in
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one of the aforementioned book titles, how to actually welcome
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the unwelcome. We also discussed how to befriend your demons,
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how to sympathize without being stupid, how to lighten up
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in the face of fear, and how to embrace chaos as,
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and this is a quote here, extremely good news. So
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here we go. Pema Chodron.
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Hello.
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Hi, this is Dan Harris calling.
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Hello, this is Pema Chodron.
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Nice to connect with you.
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Nice to talk to you again. Are you in New York?
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I am in New York, right in the heart of things.
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Oh, yeah. Wow. That's a hard place to be right now.
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That is a statement of fact. It is a hard
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place to be.
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No question.
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How are you? Situate us. Where are you exactly, and
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how are you?
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I'm good. I'm very well. I'm healthy and good. I'm
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in Nova Scotia, and I'm at Gumpo Abbey, which is...
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is very remote in a kind of a very natural
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setting on the ocean, far north in Nova Scotia on
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Cape Breton Island. And we've had to close to anyone
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coming in, but the community, it's like we're, as they say,
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sheltering in place. We're all sheltering in place together and
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just doing what we were doing before. But we're very aware,
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of course, heightened awareness of what's happening. With the virus
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and the amount of suffering and death. So that's very strong.
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But in terms of being healthy, we are. And in
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terms of, you know, being able to our life is
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not claustrophobic. I guess you could say that, you know.
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So we feel fortunate that way.
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I'm glad to hear that you're relatively unaffected. But I
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also hear that
Load full transcript
you're saying that you can't help but
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be aware of the global situation.
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Oh, yeah, yeah. Very much so. very much so.
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I was, uh, I was looking at some of your
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book titles, just read them back to you, but when
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things fall apart, welcoming the unwelcome, comfortable with uncertainty, the
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wisdom of no escape. I was thinking it's like you've
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been trying to prepare us for this for decades.
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That's true. It's true. Actually. I, uh, When my primary teacher,
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Joe Gentrompo, was alive, he taught a lot about difficult
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times will be coming and you should be preparing yourself
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to be strong and resilient and compassionate so that when
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things are difficult, it's like rather than catch the flu,
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you'll be there to help people, you know. So that
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made a big impression on me to train and working
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with difficulty when it wasn't so intense, you know. And
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everybody had plenty of difficulty to work with. But I
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was always thinking of things getting worse globally. So the
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book titles somewhat reflect that and encouragement to work with
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your heart and mind so that you could be sort
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of steady and able to be of benefit in these times.
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I suspect.
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people listening to this are thinking to themselves in all caps, how,
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how do I welcome the unwelcome? You know, how do
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I become comfortable with uncertainty? How do I, you know,
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your teacher has a quote, chaos should be regarded as
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extremely good news. How do I do all that? Sounds great.
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But what do I, how do I do that?
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Yeah. Well, I, it's like a, Well, now I make
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a pitch for the books, which are filled with instruction,
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you know. So the basic thing is to have a
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meditation practice in which you become increasingly self-aware. You're able
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to self-reflect and you're conscious of your own habitual patterns
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and your own tendencies towards fear or aggression or whatever
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it might be, you know, self-aggression, aggression towards others. And
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then the teachings are about when you can acknowledge what's
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happening with you, then the teachings are don't make yourself bad,
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you know. Don't turn this into some kind of enemy,
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but cultivate a kind attitude towards your own habitual patterns.
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And don't act them out, but don't repress them, but
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be there. Get to know their energy very well with us.
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kind and open heart and mind. So even that sounds
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and might sound good, but then the question is, well,
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how do you do that? But you do it by
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starting to meditate. People have many different styles of meditation,
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but most Buddhist meditation has a lot of similarity to it.
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And it's all about open acceptance of whatever arises without
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getting caught in good and bad thinking. So that's where
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you start. You start with acknowledging what's happening with you.
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And then the expression is always something like making friends
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with that or being friendly towards that or, you know,
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welcoming that. I try not to use language that's too corny,
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you know, but nevertheless, I end up using quite a
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bit of it in any case, you know, like embrace
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and things like that. So that's the basis. And from that,
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you begin to get in touch with as time goes on,
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you begin to have confidence really that fundamentally you are
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a good person and you have habitual patterns to work on,
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but you have the strength in you to do that.
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And then, and it takes a lot of patience and
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sense of humor, but you work with yourself that way. And, um,
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that doesn't maybe sound so in a linear way, how
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that adds up to being able to be comfortable with uncertainty.
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But in fact, that's where it leads you because you
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get comfortable with the unpleasantness or the fear producing quality
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of seeing yourself so clearly, you know, but then the
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idea is to make friends with that. So Then the
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other thing that's always taught is that to the degree
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that you can be friendly to yourself, you will be
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friendly towards others. To the degree that you can make
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friends with yourself unconditionally, you'll be able to have an
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unconditional regard and openness to other people. So it's kind
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of twofold. You become more and more, if not comfortable,
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at least very familiar with and not running away from
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uncomfortable feelings of all kinds. And it builds a kind
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of resilience and confidence that allows you, for instance, now,
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all the various things that are being triggered for people
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just being in isolation, you know, everything from rage to
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just being irritable to being very afraid. And loneliness is
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a big one. And there's a lot of uncomfortableness associated
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for many people with being quarantined, so to speak, or
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having to stay put. So it starts there that you're
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already prepared for that kind of experience. So does that
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help at all? It does.
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I mean, I'll just amplify your point by Maybe just
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adding that in my own practice, which is very young,
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especially compared to yours, but just over a decade long,
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I've really seen a shift. I've talked about this before
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on this show, so I apologize if I'm being repetitive
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to listeners, but I've really seen a shift in the
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last couple of years where initially I was trying to
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be mindfully self-aware of whatever is coming up. It had
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a clinical kind of a coldness to it and maybe
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even some aversion that, okay, I'm seeing the selfishness or
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I'm seeing the fear or I'm seeing the anger, but
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kind of with gritted teeth. And over the last couple
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of years, as I've done more, and this is from
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the Theravada tradition, and I know you're more from the
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Tibetan tradition, but I've done a more loving kindness practice.
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I think in the Tibetan tradition, you call it the
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Tonglen practice. And I've noticed that that warming up my
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own inner weather has allowed
me to do, I believe
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you use the phrase in one of your books, you know,
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making friends with our own demons and to have a
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certain sense of humor about it. Or the great teacher
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Ram Dass once said that you, it's not that your
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neuroses go away, but you become a connoisseur of them.
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And I can see that showing up in this time
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where my historical depression and anxiety is peaking, but it's
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not gaining as much of a foothold as it otherwise
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would because I have the self-awareness and some sense of
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humor and warmth toward these patterns as they arise. Does
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it sound like that's an appropriate build on the points
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you were trying to make?
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Absolutely. That says it beautifully. Yeah, that's exactly the point
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I was trying to make. And yeah, also in Tibetan Buddhism,
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there's also a version of metta practice called of the
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loving kindness practice that you're referring to. And that warmth
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is very important. You know, that warmth is very important.
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So clear seeing, but I use the word kindness, but
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warmth is another word. Yeah. It is amazing how it
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prepares you, prepares you for difficult times. And that's another
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book title, right? When things fall apart. So kind of
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prepares you for that.
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But, As much as I feel that, just again speaking
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for myself here, that I may be handling this current
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situation a little bit better than I might have, I
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don't know that I'm actively welcoming the unwelcome, and I
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don't know that I'm actively viewing this chaos as excellent news.
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Yeah, well, no. There's too much suffering, I think, to
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view it as excellent news. And so I think it's
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just that you keep your heart open. to the situation
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so that to the degree that you're able and that
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ebbs and flows, you know, some days, yes, some days, no,
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some hours, yes, some hours, no, but there's more resiliency.
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And so the word welcome, I think you have to
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have a sense of humor around about the word welcome,
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you know, but it is the idea of warmth, warmth
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toward whatever is arising. rather than you're a bad person
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or you're not doing it right or there's something wrong
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with you. That's a very deeply held feeling. And then
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when the outer circumstances are very difficult, it tends to
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bring out these strong, you might say more negative qualities
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in all of us. And so if you've already spent
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some time befriending what previously you called negative qualities, then
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you feel more prepared. So maybe just drop the language.
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I think with the book titles, you're just trying to
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convey something, a kind of view of what one will
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find in the book. But I think it's more, how
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does the language of warmth or kindness rather than welcoming,
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does that fit better?
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Yeah, it does. And I, by the way, I do
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not mean to be legalistic with you about book titles.
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Believe me, I've written a few books and I don't
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want to be held entirely accountable for every nuance in
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my book titles. So that was not my intention, but
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more to get at the spirit.
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Of what you're going for. I'm not offended by that.
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It's so common, though. I have so many people saying,
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you know, basically, I don't want to welcome the unwelcome.
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So in conversation, I've come to use different language, but
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it means the same thing, really.
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But just to dig deeper into the spirit of what
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you have been saying, and again, your teacher, Chogyam Trungpa,
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the idea that there's some sort of, and this is
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my word, not yours, but maybe some sort of opportunity
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in the chaos, you know, the notion that we should
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regard it as good news. And I know, again, I'm not,
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your teacher was not saying, and you're not saying that
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a pandemic is good news, that it's not great that
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these people are suffering, but there is perhaps an
opportunity
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to get in touch with what has been true all along,
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which is that the world isn't as solid, the ground
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beneath our feet isn't as solid as we might have imagined.
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Yeah, absolutely. That's right. So that is the value of
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chaos or of crisis, which so many people have experienced
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throughout the centuries, really, you know, that when things got really,
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really bad, it was as if they failed. had the
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realization that up to then they had been living on
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the facade. They had been living on the surface of life,
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not really realizing, for instance, not taking impermanence as a
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fact of life. Let's just talk about that. Just not
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valuing the fleeting quality of our life as something very
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precious that makes it more precious. And instead, a lot
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of denial of death or resistance to change and that
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kind of thing and then some crisis happens where you're
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kind of cornered you know you can't get away from
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the truth of it and for many people over the
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centuries that's been a big turning point of uh realizing
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something that's been true all along as you say that
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the situation is fundamentally groundless and our plans are like
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a there's a bumper sticker. If you want to make
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God laugh, make plans. So the idea of the, you
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have to make plans, you know, you have to make
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your plane reservations and things, but how many people, I mean,
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many people like my experience is I look on my
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calendar and I look at the month of May on
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my calendar and I see all the things that were
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carefully planned, the different airline reservations and hotel reservations and,
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teaching engagements and family reunions and things like this. And
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just gone, you know, none of it's happening, canceled, or
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sometimes they say postponed, but till when you don't know.
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So it's for many people, it's like some kind of
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light bulb goes off around things like this. And they
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have
the feeling that they're not afterwards going to live
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on the surface anymore, that they'll have some more profound
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connection with the true facts of life as not being
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bad news, like impermanence, for instance, and change, not being
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bad news, but just being part of what it means
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to be a human being is that each moment and
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each day and your body and all your friends and relations,
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it's all impermanent. And when you talk about that to
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many people, they think you're being dismal or negative or something,
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you know? And so it's very hard how to convey
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that so that it's like a fact of life rather
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than a downer that you're just trying to paint a
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dark picture, a stormy picture of life. So the suffering,
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let me just say this also, then in a situation
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like this pandemic, it also makes you much more really
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able to be touched deeply by the suffering of other
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people and the losses that people are experiencing. So that
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the feeling of interconnectedness can be so strong and so vivid.
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And that's another, right, of the main truth that's inescapable
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right now is how interconnected we are.
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I agree. Yes, I mean, I think it's indisputable. There
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are some non-negotiable facts of existence and impermanence and interconnection
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are two of them. I wonder, though, I think it
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was you once I read, your books are some of
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the first Buddhist books that I ever read. And I
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think you used a phrase that has really stuck with me,
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which is the fact that we're programmed for denial. And
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You know, we're in an impossible situation in which to
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make forecasts. But I'm curious, just and we're very early
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in this crisis, but you talked and I agree with
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you that crises happen. and moments of getting in touch
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with the aforementioned non-negotiable truths of human existence can be
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times where we wake up, but we also can pretty
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easily go back to sleep. And so I wonder, do
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you imagine that this crisis could be a time where
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it could affect some fundamental changes on us as a species,
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or do you think we're just going to go back
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to shopping as a way to deal with our problems?
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Yeah, well, that's the big question. I don't really have
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a prophetic sense of it, but in this sense, I
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do see it as a big opportunity. And many people
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will take advantage of what they've learned through this. But
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I think when things are extreme... it often gets very
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clear that people either grow from it or their denial
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and even the sense of fundamentalism gets stronger. You know,
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the fear gets stronger. And so digging in your heels
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more and more, even more than before, gets stronger. So,
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you know, for someone like myself, I find that frightening
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and I'm committed to not having that happen, staying awake
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and to the teachings or the messages of these indisputable
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facts of these times. But so I don't know if
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I had to make a prediction, you know, I would
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just say maybe things, this is kind of a sad prediction,
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but perhaps things will get more polarized, that people will
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either become more fundamentalist or more open-hearted and open-minded, you know,
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more closed or more open might be the two directions
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that it goes, you know. I don't know. But even so,
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if you have to have, I personally have a lot
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of sympathy for someone who just wants to close down
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and dig in their heels and hold on to something
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desperately because it's just an attempt to be happy. It's
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just an attempt to be kind to oneself. It's just
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that it causes so much more suffering. That's the problem, right?
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causes so much more suffering for oneself and one other
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because one's fear grows rather than diminishes, and one's sense
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of danger grows rather than diminishing. Whereas if you're opening
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more and more, you feel more and more comfortable with uncertainty,
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more comfortable
with what life is presenting to you, or
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at least more flexible or ready to work with whatever
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might come, you know, something like that. Is that what
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you were asking? Yeah, yes.
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I ask questions without expecting any particular answer.
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Right, right. But sometimes, you know, I can go off
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on a tangent. It doesn't have much relationship to the question.
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So that's why I check in, you know.
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Well, let me assure you, you're in a safe place
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for tangents. This is a podcast. We like to we
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like digressions, rabbit holes. It's all good here. But you
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touched on something there that I think is incredibly important. Well,
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a million things that are incredibly important. But there's just
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one thing I'm going to pick up on here, which
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is the idea of having sympathy, empathy, compassion for people
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who are behaving in this situation in ways which we
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might deeply disagree with. I'm a newsman, so I'm not
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supposed to disagree with anybody. But I would say it's
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probably not a good idea to take an assault weapon
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to a state capitol building. But can we look at
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that and say, you know, I get I feel in myself,
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if I look carefully, the desire to clamp down and
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to resist the change and close down. And can I
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see that nugget of fear and close in the instinct
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to close down and project it outward and I understand
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that somebody else is just acting out of pain, even
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if I completely disagree with how they're handling that. That
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seems like a very useful function of the mind, to
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use a loaded term here, to make that go viral
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right now.
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Yeah, I think that's right. I think that people have
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trouble with this kind of thinking often because they think
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it means if you have some kind of empathetic reaction,
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then they feel that's the same thing as condoning. or
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thinking that the action was okay. So I suppose that's
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a subtle point. You don't condone the action, but on
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the other hand, you don't condemn the person. You know,
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I was reading this book by Paul Ekman and the
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Dalai Lama, Emotional Awareness, I think it's called, or something
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like that, in which the point is made again and
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again and again by the Dalai Lama and then by
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Paul Ekman that you condemn the act, but not the person.
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And that there's always a sense that the person is
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capable of changing. And the person has goodness in their heart,
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as well as getting extremely carried away by aggression and hatred, etc.
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But condemning the action, but not the person, I think
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that's something that I definitely adhere to and try to follow,
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you know. in my life. And it comes fairly naturally
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for me, but it doesn't make you stupid, you know,
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about when there's danger, where danger lies, and it doesn't
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make you think that somebody shouldn't. But you realize, even
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from the point of view of Buddha's teachings on karma,
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the realization that those actions will have results. There will
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always be consequences to any actions, actions that are beneficial
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to others or actions that are harmful to others. And
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the consequences will be to other people, but they'll also
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be to oneself. So I think that's something that you
401
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keep in mind. I was always very struck by the
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fact that the Tibetans, when the Chinese communists overtook Tibet in,
403
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was it the 50s, right, that that happened?
404
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I believe so, yes.
405
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Yeah. Yeah. So many people were put in prison and tortured.
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And I've heard so many accounts. I read once this
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study that I've never been able to find, but I
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read this study about someone was very intrigued by how
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could people who had been tortured on a regular basis
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very brutally, how is it that they could come out
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of that without post-traumatic stress? which was an observation that
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people did come out of it without the post-traumatic stress,
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I guess many of them. And the conclusion of the
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article was that it was because they held a view that,
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which is, by the way, this is not a view
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that's easy for Western people to handle, but nevertheless, they
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held the view from their Buddhist teachings that what was
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happening to them was their opportunity for them to pay
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some kind of karmic debt but their real worry was
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for the people that were torturing them because they were
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creating such hellish future circumstances for themselves and so someone
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asked this one monk were you ever afraid and he
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said yes and then they said what were you afraid
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of he said I was afraid that I would lose
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my compassion for the people that were torturing me. So
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that's a very extreme example of this ability to see,
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to look at things very differently, you know, in terms
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of who's creating the suffering here in this situation, you know,
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for themselves. So I don't know.
430
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You know, that reminds me of, you don't have to
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even believe in rebirth or karma. I've done a few
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stories as a reporter over the years with people who
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were wrongly convicted and spent decades of their lives behind bars.
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And afterwards, I would ask them, are you angry? How
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do you I would be angry. And to one of
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the men I interviewed who were in that situation said
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to me, if I give in to that anger, it
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will consume me. You know, they just spoke very eloquently
439
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about the disutility of that kind of rage and bitterness.
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in terms of their ability to move forward?
441
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I remember reading an interview with Nelson Mandela, where the
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interviewer asked him that same question, weren't you angry? And
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he said, yes, I was angry. But I realized that
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if exactly what you said, and this case, my memory
445
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is what he said was, if I let that anger
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consume me, then I'm still their prisoner, you know? And so...
447
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I'm not going
to let myself be consumed in that
448
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way because then nothing has shifted. I'm out of prison,
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but only in my body. But in my mind, I'm
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still completely caught. So I always remember that. It's the
451
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same idea, right?
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I think it's exactly the same idea, just articulated in
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a different way. So how do we want to endure
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the hardships? A friend of mine wrote to me something
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about this on text. that he said, you know, I've
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been through crises in my life where I had the
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crisis and then I had all the rage I was
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adding on top of it. I'm not doing that this time.
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Yeah. Yeah. Good for him. Good for him. Yeah, that's
460
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the idea. That's the idea right there. But, you know,
461
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there's that thing about. You're poisoning yourself. You eat rat
462
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poison thinking that the rat will die. But it's you
463
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that's suffering from the whole thing. Yeah, that's right. So
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that's a wise person who texted you that.
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More 10% Happier after this. Let's look back to the
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issue of fear. Because you've written about the notion of
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intimacy with fear. And I think I'll confront you again
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with one of your quotes here. The next time you
469
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you wrote the next time you encounter fear, consider yourself lucky.
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And I know you're being provocative there. But I wonder
471
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if we could get granular about ways in which we
472
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could actually practice with the fear, given that most of
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our listeners are meditators or meditation curious. Could you talk
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a little bit about how we could work with fear
475
00:30:50.769 --> 00:30:51.390
in our own minds?
476
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.839
Well, I kind of was alluding to it earlier, where
477
00:30:55.859 --> 00:30:59.519
I was talking about meditation and that you get very
478
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:04.180
close to yourself. It becomes a process of becoming familiar
479
00:31:04.220 --> 00:31:07.720
with yourself and familiar with your habits, but with an
480
00:31:07.829 --> 00:31:12.650
attitude of another quote from Trungpa Rinpoche, my main teacher,
481
00:31:13.029 --> 00:31:17.289
that I really like was, you place that fearful mind
482
00:31:17.970 --> 00:31:22.789
in the cradle of loving kindness. So That's a rather
483
00:31:23.029 --> 00:31:28.450
poetic way of trying, of expressing something, but sometimes that's
484
00:31:29.069 --> 00:31:32.509
the closest you can get rather than like a step-by-step
485
00:31:32.670 --> 00:31:36.490
process or something. But I do think that's the key
486
00:31:37.059 --> 00:31:40.940
to working with fear is placing it in the cradle
487
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:46.160
of loving kindness, which is to say, acknowledge, then some
488
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:50.609
sense you might have to really notice what you're saying
489
00:31:50.670 --> 00:31:53.849
to yourself, like what the storylines are and how they
490
00:31:54.009 --> 00:32:00.930
are escalating the fear, exaggerating the fear, heightening the fear.
491
00:32:01.809 --> 00:32:07.730
And then through meditation, you learn all styles of Buddhist meditation.
492
00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:11.220
You learn to let the thoughts go and just come
493
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.039
right back. And in this case, come back to the
494
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:19.480
maybe physically embodied, how do you feel in your body.
495
00:32:19.779 --> 00:32:22.660
So let's say, okay, so in terms of step-by-step, it's
496
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:27.940
something about through meditation, becoming aware, being able to acknowledge
497
00:32:28.569 --> 00:32:33.170
with kindness and then being embodied, like come into your
498
00:32:33.210 --> 00:32:38.009
body to the degree that you're able through your meditation practice,
499
00:32:38.390 --> 00:32:41.730
letting thoughts go, they come and then you let them go.
500
00:32:42.529 --> 00:32:46.799
And rather than feeding them and escalating them with the
501
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:51.599
realization with the kind of understanding that the thoughts are
502
00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:54.079
going to cause you a lot of suffering because of
503
00:32:54.140 --> 00:32:58.339
the fact that they like pouring kerosene on the fire
504
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:00.559
to put it out. You know, you think if I
505
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:03.750
could just think my way out of this, I wouldn't
506
00:33:03.809 --> 00:33:07.329
have to feel this fear. But in fact, all those
507
00:33:07.410 --> 00:33:11.710
thoughts are causing you more pain. So letting the storylines
508
00:33:11.950 --> 00:33:15.609
come and go, not making them bad, but being aware
509
00:33:15.809 --> 00:33:18.970
of their power to cause you to suffer. So letting
510
00:33:19.029 --> 00:33:22.769
storylines go and go to your body, feel the fear
511
00:33:22.910 --> 00:33:27.869
in your body, wherever it's contracted. So for instance, fear,
512
00:33:28.269 --> 00:33:32.420
people feel it in different ways. Sometimes it's in the throat,
513
00:33:32.980 --> 00:33:38.460
sometimes in the shoulders, often in the solar plexus, sometimes
514
00:33:38.539 --> 00:33:42.019
in the stomach, often in the heart area. And I'm
515
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.619
sure
there's other places that fear is felt. And then
516
00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:52.920
One actual method is then to breathe deeply. This comes
517
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:57.839
more from the Theravadan approach, but it's you breathe deeply
518
00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:02.019
into those places. So like with the in-breath, you open
519
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:06.430
and there's some sense of expansion and letting yourself feel
520
00:34:07.049 --> 00:34:10.849
the fear physically, not think about the fear, but actually
521
00:34:11.050 --> 00:34:14.230
embody it, feel it. And then when you breathe out,
522
00:34:14.250 --> 00:34:19.210
there's also that sense of relaxation, So you breathe in
523
00:34:19.269 --> 00:34:22.789
with a sense of opening and warmth. You breathe out
524
00:34:22.849 --> 00:34:25.210
with a sense of opening and warmth in and out
525
00:34:25.250 --> 00:34:30.110
of that contracted place so that what's contracted can relax
526
00:34:30.190 --> 00:34:34.289
and expand. And that's a very practical way of working
527
00:34:34.349 --> 00:34:38.829
with fear. In other words, not mentally trying to figure
528
00:34:38.889 --> 00:34:41.929
it out, but just go to your body, get in
529
00:34:41.969 --> 00:34:45.460
touch with what it feels like physically, And then breathe
530
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:48.860
in and out of the places that are contracted and
531
00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:52.619
tight and work with it that way. What do you think?
532
00:34:53.429 --> 00:34:55.889
I love it. Something you said earlier about not trying
533
00:34:55.929 --> 00:34:58.449
to use, this is something, a problem I bump up
534
00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:02.090
against personally, not wanting to use corny language, but then,
535
00:35:02.329 --> 00:35:03.949
you know, as soon as you get into this stuff,
536
00:35:03.989 --> 00:35:06.690
you can't help it. And the thing about the wisdom
537
00:35:06.769 --> 00:35:09.880
of the body is, yeah, it sounds corny to say it.
538
00:35:10.050 --> 00:35:12.360
And yet what are you supposed to do? Because it
539
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.210
happens to be true. And so, Yeah, we can get
540
00:35:15.309 --> 00:35:18.800
stuck in thinking about things or planning or worrying or
541
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:22.880
regretting in past or future mode. But the body is
542
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:26.829
always right here and in the only time it ever is.
543
00:35:27.570 --> 00:35:31.110
And to kind of move your attention out of your
544
00:35:31.170 --> 00:35:35.429
head and into your body. in an animalistic sense, in
545
00:35:35.449 --> 00:35:38.929
a creaturely sense, as my friend Jeff often says, can
546
00:35:39.610 --> 00:35:42.969
be a nice short circuit on the habits and the
547
00:35:43.010 --> 00:35:45.110
patterns of rumination and anxiety.
548
00:35:45.750 --> 00:35:48.449
That's right. I was talking to a student of mine
549
00:35:48.489 --> 00:35:52.090
recently who was telling me, he said that he decided
550
00:35:52.170 --> 00:35:55.789
that he was going to spend a week, it was
551
00:35:55.829 --> 00:35:59.449
just recently, so he was working with fear around what's
552
00:35:59.489 --> 00:36:02.440
going to happen after this, or It had a lot
553
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.239
to do with his financial situation or lack thereof, you know.
554
00:36:08.030 --> 00:36:10.489
So he said, I'm going to spend a week, five
555
00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:13.949
days to a week, just trying to think this through
556
00:36:14.690 --> 00:36:17.469
and see how I feel at the end of the week.
557
00:36:17.809 --> 00:36:20.880
And then I'll try a week of what you're proposing
558
00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:26.260
here of letting the storylines dissolve as much as best
559
00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:31.090
I can and just keep coming back. to what it
560
00:36:31.170 --> 00:36:34.329
feels like in my body and breathing in and out
561
00:36:34.429 --> 00:36:39.190
of that in a relaxed, open way. So I thought
562
00:36:39.230 --> 00:36:41.849
that was great, you know, like, okay, I'm just going
563
00:36:41.869 --> 00:36:44.690
to find out for myself. Well, I think you can
564
00:36:44.869 --> 00:36:51.719
guess really which week ended with him feeling more settled
565
00:36:52.059 --> 00:36:56.679
and getting more insight and some sense of moving through
566
00:36:56.780 --> 00:37:01.780
something rather than getting stuck. So the week where he
567
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:04.519
just fed it, he said he actually, he couldn't last
568
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.579
a week. He said when he started doing that consciously,
569
00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:11.360
when he was very aware that that's what he was doing,
570
00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:14.739
almost like a practice, he just could not keep it
571
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:19.389
up because it was so excruciating. So then he tried
572
00:37:19.429 --> 00:37:21.429
the other and he said it was just something to
573
00:37:21.489 --> 00:37:25.659
do about the fact that the way he put it was,
574
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:29.179
there was nothing between me and the feeling. It was
575
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:33.730
just right there. That's all that was happening. There weren't
576
00:37:33.789 --> 00:37:38.030
thoughts in between. There was no nothing. I wasn't distracting myself.
577
00:37:38.570 --> 00:37:42.809
It was just very direct and dealing with the immediacy
578
00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:46.889
of my experience, he said. And that he felt was
579
00:37:47.369 --> 00:37:49.889
just that, that he was dealing with the immediacy of
580
00:37:49.929 --> 00:37:54.070
his experience, even without the breathing in and breathing out.
581
00:37:54.610 --> 00:37:59.150
was so much more settling for him. He felt so
582
00:37:59.210 --> 00:38:03.789
much more on the mark, felt so much more accurate
583
00:38:03.829 --> 00:38:07.670
and genuine and helpful. And then he did the breathing
584
00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:10.449
thing too. And in his case, it was very
helpful
585
00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:13.880
to him. It's not that helpful to everybody, but there's nothing,
586
00:38:13.889 --> 00:38:16.880
I don't think, that's that helpful to everybody. There have
587
00:38:16.900 --> 00:38:19.320
to be various methods for this kind of thing.
588
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:22.780
Well, actually, you led me exactly to the question that
589
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.179
popped up in my mind, which is, How broadly applicable
590
00:38:26.219 --> 00:38:29.800
these techniques are. So you're in an abbey in Nova Scotia.
591
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:32.380
I'm on the Upper West Side in a comparatively very
592
00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:36.000
comfortable situation. What about for people who have to go
593
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:38.400
into a hospital every day to clean the room or
594
00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:42.369
somebody who's lost their job and needs to go to
595
00:38:42.409 --> 00:38:46.090
a food pantry? For people in really, truly acute situations,
596
00:38:46.190 --> 00:38:47.969
are these techniques workable, do you think?
597
00:38:48.789 --> 00:38:51.670
I do think so, yes. I do think so. You're
598
00:38:51.730 --> 00:38:59.030
talking about truly desperate situations, especially both of those instances
599
00:38:59.090 --> 00:39:01.820
that you said. One, you have your job, but your
600
00:39:01.860 --> 00:39:04.920
job is so dangerous. And the other, you were just
601
00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:10.579
scraping by with your minimum wage job before being barely
602
00:39:10.659 --> 00:39:13.199
able to pay the rent or buy the food or
603
00:39:13.340 --> 00:39:16.579
feed the kids or whatever it was. And now all
604
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:19.079
of that's gone and the schools are closed. It's just
605
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:22.900
like a nightmare. Yeah, I've talked to people who work
606
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:26.429
in the hospitals, had a number of talks with some
607
00:39:26.469 --> 00:39:29.949
of them, and this kind of technique has been very helpful.
608
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:34.239
to them to just go in and be there for people. Otherwise,
609
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:37.179
they say, you know, before they were, it was like
610
00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.280
they just didn't know if they could go in. They
611
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:43.400
were so afraid of contacting the disease, even though they
612
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:45.840
had lots and lots of protection and all of that.
613
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:49.550
They were so afraid. And so they worked this way.
614
00:39:50.369 --> 00:39:54.030
And then I've talked to inmates in prison who find
615
00:39:54.050 --> 00:40:00.369
this technique extremely helpful. So I haven't had the opportunity,
616
00:40:00.530 --> 00:40:03.409
which I would very much value, but to talk to,
617
00:40:04.050 --> 00:40:09.340
start to have conversations with people that have lost their employment. Actually,
618
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:12.739
I had one. It was a man who he and
619
00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:17.000
his wife have been building a business, kind of a
620
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:22.550
nature resort for children. almost 30 years. And it's never
621
00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:25.309
been a big moneymaker, but they've always been able to
622
00:40:25.909 --> 00:40:27.739
make a living and they always felt it was so
623
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:32.400
worthwhile and gave them a lot of joy, this particular work.
624
00:40:33.380 --> 00:40:36.679
So now he was almost in tears talking to me
625
00:40:36.739 --> 00:40:39.699
because he said, you know, we have bills to pay
626
00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:43.599
and everybody is canceling. All the people that were signed
627
00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:46.869
up to come for the summer season, every single one
628
00:40:46.909 --> 00:40:49.570
of them has canceled and we have our bills to pay.
629
00:40:49.630 --> 00:40:53.059
And like, What are we going to do? And he
630
00:40:53.139 --> 00:40:56.420
said that the only thing that was helping him and
631
00:40:56.460 --> 00:41:00.380
his wife was this kind of meditation. And that was
632
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:04.309
actually a big help. So there is one person that
633
00:41:04.349 --> 00:41:08.829
I talked to whose whole livelihood was gone, you know, gone.
634
00:41:10.070 --> 00:41:12.750
The other thing I haven't heard anything about, but I
635
00:41:12.849 --> 00:41:16.500
feel great concern about, for people who were, there has
636
00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:19.300
been a history of violence in the family and they're
637
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:23.260
now all cooped up together. That's very frightening to think about.
638
00:41:23.340 --> 00:41:26.320
And I haven't even read one thing about that, but
639
00:41:26.599 --> 00:41:29.179
it must be going on quite a bit. I would think,
640
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.659
you know, terrifying kind of domestic situations because of all this.
641
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:38.519
So there's a lot that can open your heart, you know,
642
00:41:38.659 --> 00:41:42.650
and bring out your love and compassion for humanity and,
643
00:41:43.829 --> 00:41:47.889
the wish for things to work out for people. But
644
00:41:47.929 --> 00:41:49.929
I think what we're talking about here a little bit
645
00:41:49.969 --> 00:41:53.500
is what if certain things are not work outable? What
646
00:41:53.539 --> 00:41:56.980
about if this is just how it's going to be? Like,
647
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.900
how do you live with that? So I think the
648
00:42:01.659 --> 00:42:05.090
meditation can be very helpful in that way. And one
649
00:42:05.110 --> 00:42:07.769
of the things that's helpful about it also is that
650
00:42:08.469 --> 00:42:12.869
if you calm down enough and can settle enough with yourself,
651
00:42:14.269 --> 00:42:16.809
in this way where there is a lot of warmth
652
00:42:16.929 --> 00:42:20.610
and compassion available toward yourself, and then it begins to
653
00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:24.659
expand out
to other people. When you can do that,
654
00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:28.659
sometimes when you can calm down like that, I use
655
00:42:28.699 --> 00:42:32.880
that expression, calm down, but settle maybe, insights come to
656
00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:38.210
you about a new, fresh perspective on what you might do,
657
00:42:38.809 --> 00:42:43.510
how you might handle it differently. So, for instance, the
658
00:42:43.550 --> 00:42:46.409
man I was talking to you about whose business is
659
00:42:47.170 --> 00:42:50.460
falling apart, I mean, has just dried up on him
660
00:42:50.980 --> 00:42:53.480
and he has to pay his bills. He said that
661
00:42:53.579 --> 00:42:57.159
his children who are in their 20s, they never showed
662
00:42:57.300 --> 00:43:00.280
any interest in the business. But now they're coming up
663
00:43:00.340 --> 00:43:04.329
with all these fresh ideas about how they might work
664
00:43:04.349 --> 00:43:07.630
with things later. And so it's those kind of insights
665
00:43:07.690 --> 00:43:10.670
that have the opportunity to come up if you settle,
666
00:43:11.530 --> 00:43:14.610
if you settle. And then the benefit to other people
667
00:43:14.710 --> 00:43:18.619
is undeniable. I mean, the story I've told many times
668
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:24.239
recently is Thich Nhat Hanh's writing about the boat people
669
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:29.699
leaving Vietnam, going out into the sea, and the pirates coming,
670
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:34.309
and knowing that the pirates could kill everybody on your boat,
671
00:43:34.429 --> 00:43:39.530
could rape all the women, just knowing what horror might
672
00:43:39.610 --> 00:43:43.420
be coming. He said, if one person on the boat
673
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:48.699
remained calm, it had the ability to calm everybody. And
674
00:43:48.980 --> 00:43:52.199
I think that's something that I have in mind a
675
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:56.119
lot is wanting to be that person on the boat
676
00:43:56.179 --> 00:44:00.289
that could have that impact on other people. And then
677
00:44:00.489 --> 00:44:02.750
if you're just honest with yourself and say, I'm not
678
00:44:02.849 --> 00:44:06.610
there yet, I'm not that person who can stay calm,
679
00:44:07.289 --> 00:44:12.500
at least you can contemplate the effect of that calmness
680
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:16.440
on you. And it gives you motivation for why you
681
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:21.000
might practice in this way. So what do you think?
682
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.400
I think that I agree with everything you said and
683
00:44:25.460 --> 00:44:29.090
that I am really grateful to you for spending so
684
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:32.250
much time talking to me and the folks who listen
685
00:44:32.269 --> 00:44:34.489
to the show. I'm very grateful.
686
00:44:34.730 --> 00:44:38.130
Thank you. You're very welcome, and may we meet again,
687
00:44:38.530 --> 00:44:40.849
and we'll see where this all goes, right?
688
00:44:41.730 --> 00:44:43.389
Yeah, now's the time to get in touch with the
689
00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:44.389
fact that we don't know.
690
00:44:45.530 --> 00:44:51.420
We don't know. We definitely don't know. That's right. Okay.
691
00:44:51.780 --> 00:44:54.659
Lots of love, and may you be well and stay
692
00:44:54.699 --> 00:44:55.860
healthy there in New York.
693
00:44:56.699 --> 00:44:59.920
Thank you. Right back at you. Wishing you safety and,
694
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:02.230
to the best of your ability, ease all the way
695
00:45:02.289 --> 00:45:03.190
up there in Nova Scotia.
696
00:45:03.210 --> 00:45:04.789
Okay. Okay.
697
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:06.860
Take care. Thank you.
698
00:45:07.099 --> 00:45:07.599
Bye bye.
699
00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:12.739
Big thanks to Pema. A little bit of an announcement here.
700
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:14.239
I'm kind of bearing the lead. Maybe I should have
701
00:45:14.260 --> 00:45:17.610
said this earlier. On our next episode, which drops on Wednesday,
702
00:45:17.630 --> 00:45:21.750
we've got a really big guest, an obscure meditation teacher
703
00:45:22.250 --> 00:45:25.170
by the name of His Holiness the Dalai Lama will
704
00:45:25.190 --> 00:45:28.469
be coming on the podcast. Very excited for that. So
705
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.760
keep it here for much more. Big thanks to the
706
00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:35.300
team who work incredibly hard to make this podcast happen
707
00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:40.219
on such a busy cadence during this pandemic. Samuel Johns
708
00:45:40.300 --> 00:45:43.809
is the point man as our producer. Our sound engineers,
709
00:45:43.849 --> 00:45:48.650
Matt Boynton and Anya Shashik of Ultraviolet Audio. Maria Wirtel
710
00:45:48.730 --> 00:45:53.800
is our indefatigable production coordinator. We also get an enormous
711
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:57.340
amount of insight and guidance from colleagues at 10% Happier,
712
00:45:57.420 --> 00:46:01.789
including Nate Tobey, Jen Poyant, and Ben Rubin. And, of course,
713
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my guys at ABC, Ryan Kessler and Josh Kohan. We'll
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see you on Wednesday for the Dalai Lama.