Episode Links: Grasshopper Adventure Series Specialized Diverge Marin Museum of Bicycle talk April 26 (Fairfax, CA). Old Caz Gravel Ride Loop Grasshopper on Instagram Grasshopper on Facebook Automated Transcription: "Once we started doing an old cars, then it became tricky. That's kind of the defining roads of the grasshopper adventure series and I think, in some ways, for the development of the gravel bike." Miguel Crawford, Founder and Present of the Grasshopper Adventure Series That was this week's guest, Miguel Crawford, talking about the Grasshopper Adventure Series and the Old Caz route and the influence it's had on the sport. The grasshopper adventure series has been going on for 20 years, which is an amazing accomplishment by Miguel and his team. I was stoked to talk to Miguel and learn more about how the event got started 20 years ago about what kind of equipment they were riding along the way, how that equipment's evolved and what the future holds for the grasshopper adventure series. So with that, let's take it away. Miguel, thanks for joining us on the podcast this week. It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I always like to start off by finding a little bit about people's cycling background. So how did cycling come into your life? Well, I grew up playing on multiple team sports. I grew up playing a soccer and basketball and baseball and was a competitive athlete. I graduated high school in 88 and I'd always been interested in bikes. My drafting teacher in junior high was a bike rider When it was time to get a bike, in high school, it was 1988 and I'd always wanted to get a road bike. And my sister at the time said, hey, these guys in Santa Rosa doing this cool thing called mountain biking and said, oh, that sounds even better. And so I bought a used Stumpjumper in 1988 and the timing was perfect in terms of my personal life, looking for something challenging and exploratory and also trying to find a sport that didn't require me to be involved in a team and a pretty much it's been about bikes since then. Right on. And have you always stayed on the mountain bike side or did you pick up road riding along the way? Well that's a good question. So when I went to school, Humbolt State and it was my transportation, so I had slicks on and that I'd put them out by putting on these on. I was talking for it. I'd always wanted additional bike second by couldn't afford it and way I would move back to Sonoma county where I grew up in Sebastopol, eventually picked up a used road bikes from a friend of the folks I started riding mountain bikes, road road bikes. They weren't roadies at that time. He kind of saw people being in one camp or another. But for me it was just as fun to begin riding a road bike. So that was probably a 92 started riding road bikes. Yeah, it is interesting how we do designate ourselves in one camp or the other. I've always had equal footing, I feel like on the road and the mountain that's when my gravel so interesting to me because it's drawing from both sides of the sport. It didn't take me long to to realize that my love for cycling and in my past experience with competition, you know, well to the other, so I started competing in mountain bikes and then my group of friends, you know, out of Occidental, which is where I was living road road bikes as well, and so the roads in Virginia county though, and she may or may not have seen, I mean it, you may as well be on a mountain bike, so it's extremely challenging. It's not as if I was in UC Davis or in the flood plains and so to me it really was. It didn't seem like that different of a, of an experience, but my true love is mountain biking has, has always been, still is. It's more thrilling to be out there where there's no cars and be on the edge of the world on our little trailer. That's just what I love the most. Yeah, absolutely. That's something that drives a lot of us. Just the sort of sense of adventure and getting away from it all. So I'm excited to talk to you about the grasshopper series. Literally every single person I've had on the podcast has referenced the grasshopper adventure series as one of the events that one of the many events in the series that they love to go up and do. It's 20 years old, which is unbelievable to me. When I found out about it. When you made the announcement at old cas this year, can you tell us about the origins of the event and how it got started and what it was like back then? Yeah, for sure. Well, for one, there wasn't the Internet and there wasn't that web platform. You didn't have, you know, wix or whatever. You couldn't spend half an hour and create a webpage and have an event and basically I was as a teacher, I was sitting at my desk, so I was racing on the weekends and training and teaching and I've been a teacher for 23 years right now and so it's. It's been a good balance between my rating and putting on these events and then what I do as an educator. And so I remember the weekend, a weekend and midweek I'd be thinking about my rides. Think the epiphany for me was after driving down to pine slot, which is a beautiful area, but I think we spent six hours of driving and then a hotel and we went to go race and I got had a bad day and ended up in the or and in Fresno behind bulletproof glass and it turns out had a kidney stone and it was a crappy day and a lot of money. And then I got back to my place and Occidental, I thought, you know, I don't want to drive. I don't want to be in hotels. I don't want to spend money and I also didn't want the experience. But what happens in road races if you're not at the sharp end of the field, the whole rest of the group just rides neutral. And for me it was training and so that sort of, you know, mountain biking. So I thought, well, what if we take. We start from where we live so I don't have to drive. We invite the people who's competitive and we'll have just an agreement that there's no waiting. There's going to be no aid and no support and we'll just see how it goes. And my girlfriend, my wife at the time, my wife would write the results at the end and we'd go drink beer and eat pizza. And um, you know that that's how it started. Was there a specific route that kind of kicked it all off? Well, everything started out of Occidental, which many of them do. The very first one include willow creek, but it didn't include old, it was a Sweetwater, which we're doing this in a couple of weeks and then all the way out the river and up will a creek. So from the start it was for me as a mountain biker to look for something that was interesting and fun and had and had dirt so that, that was, that's been, that's been a part of it all along. Were they the men and women who participated back then? Were they riding mountain bikes or road bikes? What were they on? Mostly? Well, you know, it's interesting. So at that time I'd say most people on a road bike. So the folks who are, so again, this is before Internet, I tried to call people or mail something so basic, I knew some folks down in Santa Cruz, I knew, uh, uh, Rick Hunter, and then in Santa Rosa there was some folks and then curtis English I think later came from, from Napa area. So the Santa Cruz group, because of their background, we're coming up on cyclocross bikes and then up here we're all on [inaudible] and charge tales with skinny tires. But the first couple ones that included roads were on road bikes. So we're also accustomed to writing road bikes with 25 or 28 had done in many parts of the country. Uh, so that was primarily once we started doing an old cause then it became tricky and I think that's kind of been coming to defining road for a, the grasshopper adventure series. And I think in some ways for the development of, of, of the gravel bike that, that particular, that particular route. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I was talking to someone the other day about my experience at old cars, which I've done it twice. One was about, I'd say eight years ago on a cross bike with cantilever brakes and then again this year on a unquote gravel bike with disc brakes, 6:50 p size wheels, [inaudible] tires, and it was like night and day. I enjoyed sort of every pedal stroke of it this year. Whereas a member feeling in that first year that I was excited by the adventure, I love the river crossing all the elements of the day, but I was just getting the crap kicked out of me all day. Oh yeah, right. The gravel bikes are crazy. I mean the diverge I'm on right now and rides and descend better than my old boss off road on the road. It's got fantastic geometry and so at the time he was also around and, and it's, you know, now every, every almost everyone who's making your gravel bike, but there was some resistance. There was the idea of like you have a road bike or you have a mountain bike or do you have a cross bike? And the geometry and the angles and the very aggressive angle than some of them. And then the high bottom bracket, it wasn't, it wasn't perfect, you know, and I think what also added with the grasshopper and old cars is when you add that competitive element and people start to be concerned about what really works best, you know, if you're just cruising and you're on the same bike, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter. But since we're adding that, that [inaudible] like, you know, who's, who's the crusher for the year, you know, people would take it seriously. Um, especially, you know, Glen Fountain, Shane version in from Santa Rosa, Glen's been such a gear freak forever. Tweak it out on the details of tires and every single detail so that, that's kind of attitude as well as the tire manufacturing. I mean, that's, that's been a fantastic change and improvement for all of us. There really weren't many choices back then. Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. I feel like when disc brakes started to sneak into the cyclocross scene, all of a sudden people started, their eyes started opening as to what those cross bikes can do. And when the frame designers caught up a little bit and made a few tweaks for the kind of more adventurous rising writing and less cyclocross racing, all the sudden these bikes are just opening people's eyes to this gravel writing scene and in a totally new type of writing. Yeah. And it's putting us where we want it to be, which is off the road. I mean all this, you know, contend with traffic and no one, no one likes to do that. So it's given people the chance to ride roads in their backyard that they may not have written when they had to squeak by on a road bike with 25 c's and deal with floods, you know. And so I understand the mass appeal. Yeah, it's fantastic. And the comfort as well, you know, if you could run a [inaudible] on my boy, the wheels with [inaudible] wt, b's and a little while back and I think he was onset, uh, you know, on this 735 and just looking side by side. And I was like, damn, these wheels and tires just roll fantastically. So yeah, it really is coming down to the wheels and tires these days. Was there a particular point in the last 20 years where you started to see the equipment really caught up in the participation in the advanced? Just grew? Yeah. I'm trying to think of a specific Garret's done the last few years. You know, I wish we had photographs of the first eight, 10 years because everyone was the, the, the variety of bikes that would come up. It was just super entertaining and everyone just trying to make it work. I'd say the last three years pretty much everyone showing up with the gravel bike, just kind of the norm. Something happened last year that was interesting. One of the folks who've been doing the hoppers, he said, yeah, I'm buying my first mountain bike. And I looked at him and I thought what dawned on me that people that ride grovel for some people, it's been around long enough that that's the only bike they know and now they're discovering mountain-biking and they're discovering road biking. So I think that's an interesting evolution. Whereas for most of us rode mountain bikes and road bikes and we got into gravel. So, um, have you, have you considered changing any of the routes given the new types of equipment that are available today? Or is it staying pretty true to the original roots? True know. I think, you know, we'll talk about later about the branching out to the, to the Mondo event. For me, the hopper has been about Sonoma County, Virginia County and about the community of people. And so, um, it's about writing where we world and the country is a big place so he could go someplace and you could draw this perfect route, but it's, it's not where you live and it's not part of the people were there supporting your vet doesn't really make sense. And so all these are, are, are aware of where we are. So it's also been a big balancing act of making the course of safe and creative and interesting and challenging and also dealing with the fact that they're on open roads. So that's something I'll always taken very seriously. And they've morphed over time to make sure that they're all mostly right hand turns. For example, people may not have noticed that, but every time you make a left turn you're crossing opposing traffic. So almost all of them go in a counter-clockwise direction, right in a clockwise direction. Think we've nailed it. Pretty sweet spot. King Ridge, you know, for example, that one which has several sections that are now that kind of sums up, you know, the, the trickster role that I'd like to play. I think most people in this area had been writing here 15, 20 years or longer and it never done done King Ridge in that direction. I think even adventures or features of habit sometime. And so that I think that one's perfect. And then I'm looking at doing some other explorations of some areas that got caught. A couple of secrets and a can fill you in on those when plans get near. You alluded to the hopper. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah, sure. Um, well my self, like many others who are a few justice yonder fans can lose huge amount of times. Now that we have google maps and Google Earth, and I'm, and I'm no different, so I have cited my paper Gadgeteers I have quite a collection of roots and uh, so for me, Sonoma County, Mendocino County and Humboldt County are the areas that I've really considered home since, since I was, since I was a kid. I've been looking at changing the format so that we could have a two day event, you know, and I busted possibilities of two days out of one place. So this event's going to be two days, but was camping in the middle. So instead of people driving and parking and doing their event and splitting and we're gonna all be together and my character camp ground in Fort Bragg, so we'll bring stuff out there for people. It'll be two days of about 75 miles each. And they bought, each of the days will be half gravel. So I think it's just going to be a fantastic two days. You know, when you get into Mendocino County, Humboldt County, it's not hard to find a loop, but to find something about that length, that to loop single loop is tough. I think when I was looking at doing is all one loop. We were looking like a hundred and 35 miles and 15,000 feet of climbing or something and a decreases the number of people that would be interested as well as the logistics of keeping track of people. This was going to be a good one was it gives people a chance to do roads you may see on a map, but it just wouldn't make sense. And I feel like that's ever since I've been writing whether doing mountain bike trips in Downieville or Tahoe or in Moab or crested Butte, I've always been the one to like look at the map. Like, oh my God, where can we go look at this? And for the most part people trusted me to put together things that were, that were interesting. And I still feel like I'm playing that role. Uh, even though it's become more popular for people to go out on their own hosting these events and saying, hey, check out this. I do feel like it's a big driver for the community. Just like it was back in the early mountain bike days. We all used to sign up for events just to go try new terrain and have someone map it out for us. And I think gravel riders are, are really seeking out those kind of adventures, whether it's a few hours from home or many hours from home. We all want to try new things. Absolutely. You know, and I think I'm a little. I'm a little Virginia centric where we're buying so much open space and mountains in there. You are in Moran and, and north of San Francisco and in this area. But I think about the amount of people who live east of the rockies. People want to get out of the cities or people who live in big cities. They want to get out. And uh, in those areas there are tons of gravel roads. And I think for the most part, events are happening organically where people live. And say let's, let's do this. So that's cool to see. I was always curious about your sort of thought process. Do you consider the grasshopper series races or something else? That's a good question. I've often said they're not racist, but they're harder. It's kind of gone back and forth. I really want it to be something for everyone and I think that they're unique in that you have to coordinate and Ted King and Jessica Bush and Levi, some of the top 10 dam out and then you have people who finished twice as long later. But I think one thing about cycling in these type of events is there's that personal challenge isn't as race, and this was very intentional by me when I started these is people would ride differently. When you say it's a race and people will make decisions in my opinion, that are in their best interests of the group. So I'm really careful about calling it a race. As you know, there was a point standing in a podium, but basically every Wednesday afternoon ride all around the country, people have erases the grasshopper, so they are competitive. They were always meant as competitive training events. It's gone back and forth in terms of the permitting and insurance and also the logistics of actually closing down at an event like you went to her. California. It's not, it's not possible in this area. So there's a couple of reasons why it is purposely a little bit. I'm not clear as to, as to what it is. No, I personally love, I love how it's called the adventure series and I love in my mind going out there and just having an adventure and I do think it's cool like upfront that it's local pros that are killing it, but for me the races in the middle of the pack somewhere and I'm all about just enjoying the day out there and I have to say that each of the grasshoppers I've done, it's always just been a good day out and when you get to the finish line that's even better. Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, I've had, I've had the experience, so my oldest kids are 15 and 12 and have a two year old, so there were times at least one year where literally every ride for five months was just a grasshopper. I went from grasshopper to gossip and I did them all and I had the experience of writing initially to try and win them and then writing in the top 10 and then being way in the back, so to be in this group of field. And they became, they became my peers of every single person was giving it as much as when we were in the top 10. And I was. And it was the kind of a light, a light bulb moment. And they were having that same experience as the person that was 45 minutes faster. And I thought that's beautiful, you know, um, in the sense of accomplishment and achievement. And a lot of folks don't see each other all year and they'll come out into a hopper and 20 miles into it there with someone. They're like, Hey Tony, hey, what are you doing? Because the fitness is the ultimate equalizer. And uh, you know, and I think that's one of the beauties as the events gotten larger in terms of numbers, that it's more likely that you're going to end up with similar people, whether it's an old cows or a king rage or super sweet water. Now it should. People telling good stories about that. Yeah, absolutely. And I do. I don't think that if you call it a race and many of the races we've done on mountain bikes or road bikes when you're off the back, when you're middle of the pack, you're rarely like looking over and having a laugh with someone. There's still that weird race intensity that I think part of it's being in the dirt. Part of it's driving these gravel bikes. Part of it's just these cool events. You just look over and you have a good time. You know, you're not trying to crush the guy next to you for 407th place. Exactly. And I, and I, one of the things I used to openly joke about when I started this as friends who would, they would do old cars and they wouldn't do the other. And I'm going to Visalia, I want to get my upgrade points from my [inaudible] to my four. I'm like, OK, whatever. So we coined this to profaned to her upgrade points. And uh, that rung true to a lot of people when you look at the movement of gravel and have the type of competition is like, I think it is important to, to acknowledge, uh, the, the top people and to strive for that. But I also don't believe in the minutia of all the age group categories and ability categories so that everyone gets a medal. You know, I don't think that's the experience they're all looking for. And I think that's kind of the direction that it was for a while. It may have all back into that, into some level. I don't know. There's not like an overall governing body for all these events that are, that are popping up, you know, and that, that's a good thing. So um, yeah, I think it's interesting in the gravel writing community, and we've talked about a little bit before on, on other episodes is it seems like there's a couple of different directions. The way these events are going, there's the kind of four to six hour events and then there's more of the ultra endurance events that are out there and it's going to be interesting to see how it all shakes out and chances are it won't shake out. I think there's room for all types of events for different types of adventures. I agree. And for different, for different people and for different reasons and for different periods of their life as well. For me, my demographic and almost 50 now and I still like to be fit and compete. So it'd be to show up and race local pro doesn't make sense, you know her last or second to last where I compare my times. But to be able to compete in the 40 to 49 category, I mean there's some super fit guy. He's got a hundred and 50 guys show up at old cars. So there was no podium, but that group of 100 or the top 25 people under 40 or 49 and they know who those people are and they know where they rank and so you're allowed to be competitive without that being the ultimate motivator, you know. So I think that's a, that's a beautiful thing in sport in general and I think it's important to cultivate that in, in our events and the grasshoppers and you know, that that's important to me. So is there one event that stands out as your personal favorite? Well, [inaudible] just for a little piece. So I'm not quite the blogger but on facebook, you know, it feels to me right now the Sweetwater, this one coming up and I'll, and I'll tell you why it's because it's just weird. It's like four of our biggest clients is basically a road ride, but then you throw in the middle which is gravel. So it's what I call upper and they're like, oh shit, it's mixed birthday because you can't say no and you gotta go do it. So we do a huge road ride, but then we do old guys in the middle, which means, you know, it's crazy to just ride a gravel bike because you only have that, you know, eight, 10 mile section the gravel, uh, but if you just ride your road bike that it's kinda tricky. And then the fact that we go from the river valley, we do all caps, we have the creek crossing, we climbed to the top of a Fort Ross with the Myers grade descent, which on a clear day it's gotta be one of the best defense in the world and it finishes with the Coleman Valet Con. But truly the best grasshopper for me is the one that I just wasn't really recently did. I mean it, all. Loops that are just that they're all fantastic and they're all a little bit different. And are there some memories of the last 20 years that stand out to you? Oh yeah, for sure. This year, pulling off old cast, it's successfully is a big memory. The size of things and just the frenetic energy around it. Um, you'll feel satisfied about that. I say some of the most inclement weather days stand out the most. We had a couple of those last year, I'd say probably the most striking, whether one was, I can't remember the year, but there was a year where everything was flooded and tomatoes area and we're doing Chileno volley and in that area it's interesting because um, the oftentimes check the rain, but in that area you have to check the tide tables because the creeks and highway one flood based upon high tide. And so when we rolled out towards valley for this, when we went down into freestone volley Ford road into front, into Franklin school, the [inaudible] cough was fine, but it didn't rain that much today. But the tides went up. So by the end of the day and we came through. No, that's not true. It was flood. Actually. I remember that there was a Volkswagen bus that was. So it was about the height of the middle part of your down to at the start of the day. And then at the finishing day, myself and Devin I guess, and a few others were coming through valley for. And I remember him falling over and he actually completely submerged and this was on a paved road, so we're riding through a flood and then uh, and then the sprint, which is like six of us entailed going up the freestone valley Ford Cutoff and when that floods it actually has a current. And so you re, I mean the roads size of a small county road, but you had to literally ride right in the middle because if he fell in the ditch, I mean it's eight, 10 feet deep. So that one, just because of the miraculousness of us pulling it off really, really stands out to me. I should've, I should've made notes that since, I mean 20 years of five hoppers a year. So that's a lot of. Yeah. Well, I think another, another story is one of the cold days. I'm King Ridge for one of, by, by one of my best friends in the old Lewis. It was doing pretty well. He was ahead of me actually. I rolled into Jenner to get some food. It's one of those days when it was so cold and you had to stop because we didn't have hot food or drinks there and he was pulled over at the market instead of getting like coffee and a snickers or whatever, he was buying a huge piece of smoked salmon, like all I could think about was to buy the first thing he saw and there was a guy standing there, so I think he spent eight, 10 bucks, says Sam and on the side of the road. That's symbolic of people just being completely empty and a emptying out there. Yeah, I mean it's, it's why people talk about it for three or four days after every grasshopper. Just these memories of the adventure of being out there. I think that's a good way to sum it up. Yeah. We didn't use to have any water or support for people, so that made it a little extra extra challenging. I feel fine offering Osmo and Goo and, and, and, and sponsors product in nutrition. I feel like that's still not, not, not cheating, both having cold beer for people, but the top. Nobody minds that too much. I think everybody appreciates it a lot. It's amazing. I mean 20 years. That's so awesome and I can't express enough how cool that is. I think a lot of people would love to know, do you have any tips for first time event organizers to help them kind of pull off something successfully? I'm a funny guy to us that as I don't have a business degree and totally organically I'm, I'm doing it where you live and what their core is is, is really important. Obviously from a business point of view, there's other things you need you need to look at, but I think just starting on doing a route that's fun to ride and focusing on that, you know, looking out after people just enough so that they're safe and covering your bike, but make it a little bit edgy, I think, uh, is important in this type of this type of event. Putting it on in a way that's not going to create conflict with other users in your area, whether it's hikers request or people on the road. I think that's something that we always have to be mindful of. When we looked around 100, 200, 300 cyclists out there, that seems like you guys have done a great job of embracing the small community of Occidental in a way that, as you said, 600 people can come into town and try not to disrupt things too much while still bringing economic value to the community. That's the goal of doing that. Exactly. I'm pretty much, I mean we took over the town and then hopefully they see it as, as a, as a plus. So, you know, it's not business as usual. Um, I know people love and look forward to coming to that town and I think, yeah, taking a destination that you can have a relationship with that, that is important. I'm really looking forward to doing this one again to Mendocino where it's kind of spreading out and connecting with different people. I know up in that way, giving people a chance to, again, I think one of the things it wants to do an event a few times, it's kind of a known thing and a known factor. Although there's always like, how fast can you do it? This Mendocino [inaudible], there's certain pieces when we look at them apps, but it's like you're out there when you're writing Sherwood road, you have 35 miles of dirt from the Ridge on wheels to the coast, you know, so both of both sections of that gives you this really sense of exploration and so that's important to me and the next phase is continuing to have things that have that, that unknown factor and a little bit step by step outside of the comfort zone. Do you see more events coming in to the grasshopper series? I don't know. I think just this event's going to be unique and stand on its own. I think people are. There's been a lot of interest in it. I think after the first year, the report back will be that that was a pretty amazing experience and be able to end in camp right on the ocean. It's not. People aren't quite that accountant accustomed to leaving. They're leaving their things and two day events. Yeah, I was something else. Interesting. You know, there's something in October that might be going on in the second day, wouldn't be necessarily a big ride, I think back to back days and then travels a little bit taxing. So something a little bit more social or educational, cultural on the second day and a time to unwind and just be together and the first day of big riding. But yeah, cut some ideas. Nice. Hey, but why not? Why not a week? Why not a week long? Right? Yeah, absolutely. If we can all find the time off from our families a weekend thing. Yeah. I think that's been, that's been the key of this, of the, of the nor cal community with this stuff as well. I really appreciate, you know, as people, a carve out the time and their daily lives to make time for them, for themselves, you know, to do it their love and keeps her passion gone. I think that all makes us better people with our relationships in our families and our work and really that's where it comes from for me, uh, as, as the teacher, you know, it's like giving us something because we all play bigger roles, more important roles outside of the cycling. And uh, to me it's a, if it's all about biking, it's just a little bit too narrow. I think it's a vehicle for us to be in the world and uh, the northern California cycling community, I'm just impressed with the men and women who just like do so much for each other and for the community and while at the same time finding times to get out and shred and that speaks volumes to the people here. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's pretty natural point to finish our conversation today. I think there's, I mean it sounds like there's really cool future ahead for the grasshopper adventure series and a couple of new tricks up your sleeve and obviously if anybody hasn't been out to one of the events, encourage you to get out there. They're a part of California is beautiful. Yeah, I appreciate it. And let me, let me not forget to give a plug for, uh, for, for Lake Sonoma, it's like 27 miles of just ripping on single track. It's like a flow trail and uh, the hoppers is about being able to share it on every slide, you know. So you've got your cross bike or mountain bike and your road bike. It's a good place to start out. Where's the best place to find information on the series? Our webpage is the best grasshopper adventure series a, you know, follow us on Instagram, a grasshopper adventure series, our facebook page. I tried to keep things active there as a, as a place where people gather information, but our website's got everything I need to know. I'll make sure to have everything in the show notes on that and that really appreciate you spending the time with us today. Hey, my pleasure So that was great. Talking to Miguel this week, the grasshopper adventure series has meant so much to northern California and to the gravel cycling community, I hope would be event organizers. Learned a few tips from Miguel about how to put on a great longstanding event. And how to integrate into a local community and in some late breaking news, I just learned that there Morin Museum of bicycling in Fairfax is interviewing Miguel on April 26. I'll put the link to the events in the show notes, but I want to encourage everybody to go out and see Miguel in person and see some of the great damages he's captured over the years hosting the grasshopper series. As always, thanks for listening. If you have any feedback, you can hit us on instagram at the gravel ride. Shoot me a note at Craig at the gravel ride that bike. And also don't forget to share rate and review this podcast to help us get found. Until next time, get out there and get some adventure and we'll see you soon.