Negative Space; Understanding What You CAN'T See-এর সম্পূর্ণ প্রতিলিপি

sense. 00:03:54.080 --> 00:04:00.159 But if I think about, I'm looking at the a storefront of a building, the Home Depot, whatever, right? 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.560 So we're in the parking lot, we're staring at the Home Depot. 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:10.000 That building, everything that I can see right there in front of me, you know, we we would call that, you know, put it, it's anything that has mass, it's that positive space. 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:12.479 So things I can directly observe right there, right? 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:19.519 And then if I think about what dead space is, it's like, okay, everything that I can't observe, like so I can't see what's behind the building, right? 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:21.120 So that's dead space to me, right? 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.160 So I can only see and observe what I what's right in front of me. 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:25.920 But then there's something called negative space. 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:33.759 And so negative space, think about if I'm looking at the Home Depot, well, look at those doors, you know, the sliding open doors, you know, the main entrances on both sides. 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:34.800 Look at the windows. 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:42.240 Look at maybe there's a shaded area over there where they have something covered with a tarp, you know, that's up off the ground, but there's things underneath it. 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:44.959 That's what we mean by negative space. 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:52.079 And the reason why we get into it a lot is because you have certain, you know, physiological limitations about how your iron brain works is your brain kind of starts to paint that out. 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:53.439 It doesn't attend to those things. 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:55.759 It kind of just says, okay, there's nothing there. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.480 But if you train yourself, you can look into those areas. 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:05.600 I can look into that window, I can look into the window of the gas station before I go walking in there to make sure I'm not walking into an armed robbery, right? 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:08.160 Uh, I can take a pair of binos, I can look into there. 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:11.120 And inside that negative space, there's a lot going on there. 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.279 But but because of how our iron brain worked to perceive the world, it kind of just paints it out. 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:16.319 It doesn't attend to it. 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:22.720 If I'm in that parking lot again, I always tell people I'm walking through that parking lot, you know, I'm looking at vehicles in there. 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:28.800 I try to see, you know, as I'm walking behind a vehicle, I try to look at the rear room mirror through the back window. 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:30.240 And you're going, well, well, why? 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:31.519 I'm probably never going to actually see it. 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:41.600 It doesn't matter what you're doing is you're training your eye to kind of see into that vehicle because because of how the windows are, because of how light refracts, and because it's not darker in there, our brain just goes, okay, there's nothing there. 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:48.240 It's like, well, no, you might be walking past a car full of people that are in there waiting to jump out, and you literally won't see them, right? 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:51.519 So that negative space is, you know, criminals hide in negative space. 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:56.800 You know, it's it's it's it's something that we we take in a very literal sense to practice. 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.240 So that's how we we we get into that in class. 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.680 But today, for this, Greg, I want to take that discussion further. 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:12.879 And we don't, because when we're observing a situation, a person, we don't always have access to someone's intent, and we certainly don't have access to what the full situation is. 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:15.360 We're sort of teleported into it in a sense, right? 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:17.839 But we can observe the information around it. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:21.920 You know, how do we use that information to understand what we can't see? 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:31.600 So the connection I want to explore today is how the space around something helps us understand the thing itself. 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:36.079 And we can apply that same idea to a situation we don't fully understand. 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:44.800 And so the setting, the relationships, the timing, and the activity around it can help give shape to what we can't directly see or observe. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:48.959 And that's how we're going to extend this negative space into this conversation, Greg. 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:58.639 And so we're asking, you know, what the surrounding information allows us to reasonably infer about someone's intent, about what's happening. 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:03.120 And then how do I then use that to check myself, right? 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:05.360 Whether or not that inference holds up. 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:07.920 So that's big picture concept, Greg. 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:19.920 And I want to wanna throw to you with kind of an opening question about when we teach positive, negative, and dead space, what are we trying to change about how people look at the environment? 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:21.920 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:27.120 So a couple of clarifications for for our uh frequent listeners and for new listeners. 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:30.800 Look, you don't have to have attended our class to find value in our podcast. 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:35.360 And you don't have to have been a combat hunter or a vet to understand these principles. 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:36.160 This is science. 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:37.920 What we do is we try to street it up. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:43.199 We try to break it down so you

understand cognition and how it can improve your play. 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:52.160 So when when Brian was talking about seeing through things, that's, you know, we call those burning techniques burn through, burn through vegetation, through darkness, through cover. 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:53.759 Okay, so that's what we mean by that. 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:55.120 So it's not mixing you up. 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:03.600 The other thing is we'll routinely say negative, positive, and dead space or NPND, or dead, positive, negative, or positive, negative, dead. 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:04.560 Don't even worry about it. 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.199 It doesn't matter what the order is, it matters how you learned it. 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:11.519 And then what happens is that that skill, after a while, you repeat it in that order. 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.519 But the negative space is the key because it's the center focus. 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:20.160 And I'll give you a definition from Rogue Manor West here, where I'm broadcasting from my home. 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:25.040 Okay, so we have uh fural cats and they get eaten by eagles and by foxes. 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:27.199 So they don't stay feral very long here. 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:34.320 But we do have we have chipmunks, and we have the kind of Western chipmunks that have to fight for survival every minute of every day. 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:36.480 They're not big targets like a cat. 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:46.240 So when I come out, the positive space that I see is my pickup truck, and it's parked just before, you know, it goes off into the sagebrush sea and everything else. 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.600 And I look at it, and the tire is also something I can see. 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.039 That's positive space. 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:52.639 Behind the truck, I can't see. 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:54.240 So that would be my dead space. 00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:05.919 But there's a point between my tire and my fender well that's always darker no matter where the sun is, and the chipmunk sits on the tire in that position, no matter what he's eating, and looks around for a while. 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:06.960 And so I think about it. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.039 Okay, elevated position, that makes sense. 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:11.440 Okay, but why does he choose the negative space? 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:17.200 Because prey always moves from position of cover to position of cover. 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:19.919 They're always looking for a potential exit. 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:26.879 So what happened is my use of the negative positive dead space gave me an explanatory storyline that I can now check out. 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:28.639 Hey, I've seen that on other vehicles. 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:30.080 It's not just at my house. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:31.759 Now we've got a file folder, Brian. 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:33.200 We've got a robust file folder. 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:36.080 So the negative positive dead space becomes a mechanism. 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:38.720 So we don't just fix our attention on a thing. 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:43.039 Okay, because what happens we have to compliment contemplate the entire experience. 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:44.639 We call it the Hoberman, right? 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:46.000 We want to look 360. 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:52.720 So, for example, on a traffic stop, it's much more complicated than TV shows or or the police academy first teaches you. 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:57.919 So there's negative, positive, and dead space, just picking where we're gonna stop. 00:09:58.000 --> 00:09:59.519 And sometimes you don't get to choose. 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.720 Sometimes the driver of the suspect vehicle is doing that, right? 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:05.919 And then the driver has his own NPD. 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:07.039 Okay, a smell. 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.039 Is the smell coming from him or the car? 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.679 Is the smell of burning marijuana or packaged marijuana? 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.759 It's things like that is clothing, is demeanor. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:14.879 You're going, oh, clothing. 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:16.559 Yeah, is closing mused up? 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:20.320 Has he dropped food on himself because he's you know under the influence of something? 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.080 All of those things are things within that package, okay? 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.399 And then we have the dead space. 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:28.879 You know, the is there a gun under the driver's seat? 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:32.320 Is there a gosh damn something in the glove box, all that other stuff? 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:40.320 But the negative space, what's just behind the headrest to the right shoulder before I get to the center console? 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:50.639 Now, if I have to move or if I have to use something like a thermal, an NVG, a flashlight, or kneel down a little bit, we're probably talking about a negative space. 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:59.360 And that connective fiber between the positive and the negative and the and and the dead space is where the seams and gaps were that stuff hides. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:03.200 So then, you know, if we do traffic stop, that's one good example we can compare. 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:04.240 What about an interview? 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:06.399 So Brian gave us one in class. 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:10.960 Well, listen, if we get so fixated on the mission, we're gonna make mistakes. 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.000 So we're here to address the student's unruly behavior. 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:16.320 Yet what we have to do is we have to take a look. 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:17.200 When's the interview? 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:17.840 What time of day? 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:19.519 What time of day did the incident happen? 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:20.399 Where did it happen? 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:23.200 In a class or in the

cafeteria or on the property? 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.519 Who else knows about the counseling session? 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:33.039 If it goes sideways, I don't want to get accused of, you know, saying something improper to a female or male or anything else, right? 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:39.919 And if the the parent, let's say, or or significant other or caregiver gets pissed, do I have an exit? 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.279 These are considerations. 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:53.519 And what happens is we don't think about those because we wrote the note, it's late, I want to get this over with, I have to do a counseling session, and then we walk right into it and we don't even understand things like what was the kid going through? 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:55.200 Did I investigate that far enough? 00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:00.399 Were they going through a breakup and then, you know, or just had a bad day or changed their meds? 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.679 If we don't know those things, they become negative space issues, right? 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:07.360 They're not unknown to us, Brian, because we can investigate to get them. 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.840 So a dead space issue would be something we didn't know. 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:14.159 Well, you or you can't, or there's no way you can see it is what we're saying. 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:22.000 Is the dead space, I can't unless I move and go over there with but negative space, there's still you know it's there, there it helps you construct what's happening. 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:22.720 Exactly. 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.120 And so I love when you say that for the interview. 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:33.759 I love when you say that with the window, because a window at the gas station, for example, I'm in the parking lot and I look through the window. 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:35.759 I can observe what's happening inside. 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:43.120 That's not dead space to me, but I can't observe it clearly and I don't hear the sounds or smell, but I see them. 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:43.679 Yeah. 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:44.960 So so guess what? 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:46.320 That's just as important. 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:57.039 So so if I can use uh negative, positive, dead space to help me define boundaries or groups or sets or challenges uh within it, then the positive space, okay, that's what I see and who I see. 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.200 The vehicle, the people standing in there of the building. 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:00.000 Okay. 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.960 But now the negative space is are they lingering? 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:04.320 Is it an unmanned vehicle? 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:04.799 Okay. 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:11.919 Am I seeing graffiti up on a second deck, which means if they a graffiti artist can get there, a sniper can get there, right? 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:14.320 Garbage, the door locks, the signage. 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:21.120 Okay, all of this, this, this fundamental

stuff that we see that creates the fidelity is normally in that negative space. 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:28.720 It's not right, like you say signage, yeah, a parking sign, okay, but a sign of a person smoking crack when I'm seeing the vials on the ground. 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:30.159 Or do you get what I'm trying to say? 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:32.720 Those, that's that's that transitory position. 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:34.799 So that becomes my negative space. 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:36.480 The the lights are missing. 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:42.240 All of a sudden, now I take a look and the people are lingering, but they're very close to the dead space. 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:43.759 Why would somebody choose to be there? 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:45.519 I go back to my chipmunk example. 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:47.360 Why is the chipmunk standing right there? 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:51.440 Okay, it's warm, it's out of the direct sunlight, but he's got an escape route. 00:13:51.600 --> 00:14:01.279 So what I'm saying is that we have to look, and and these three examples should cover everything that our listeners would likely run into in a day, right? 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:01.519 Right. 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:10.000 And then if they get fluent enough with the NPD, then they can utilize that to help frame their their structured observation. 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:55.120 Yeah, and and these we're we're using these specific examples, but they're meant to be used in a general way, right? 00:14:55.280 --> 00:14:59.360 I mean, meaning don't think about it, well, I don't have a kid, I'm not gonna have a parent, teacher. 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:04.960 No, just it doesn't matter what the interview or what the thing is like or what what news article you're reading. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:06.160 Chipmunk, right? 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:06.960 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:07.280 --> 00:15:09.759 This is you never know. 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:15.519 The the Elvin and the Chipmunks was always my favorite uh Christmas song, their their whole Christmas series. 00:15:16.160 --> 00:15:16.560 All right. 00:15:16.800 --> 00:15:19.440 So so let's let's let's kind of kind of jump into this. 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:23.120 And so, for example, on the traffic stop example, right? 00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:35.759 So the mere observation of taking an unfamiliar route or nervous demeanor does not immediately establish, you know, deception or some nefarious intent, right? 00:15:35.920 --> 00:15:37.440 Same thing with the gas station, right? 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.519 You can you'd sit there like, okay, why is this person hanging out here over there? 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:53.040 Are they, you know, well, is it the kid that's trying to get someone to buy them beer at the gas station, or is he waiting to get picked up because this is right by the school and this is where it's easier because there's a line out the door there? 00:15:53.120 --> 00:16:00.080 Like there's all these things that I can just

just one thing isn't necessarily meaning there, I can't jump to an unreasonable conclusion. 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:07.360 And you know, there's there's a number of ways we we can get into this stuff, but like I have to look at not this as it's a static thing. 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.879 One, it's dynamic and everything's kind of moving, but it's about relationships and interactions, right? 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:22.240 So within this design space of the gas station, or I'm talking to the teacher or the traffic spot or traffic stop, excuse me, there's a lot of space in there, right? 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:23.600 There's there's a there's a lot going on. 00:16:23.680 --> 00:16:29.840 And so it in and those background elements, that negative space is what gives meaning to these different observations that we have. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:36.720 And it can allow me to, you know, go in the wrong direction or the right direction based on on you know how I process it. 00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:43.519 But but one question I would kind of have for you is like when we what what what am I trying to get out of this? 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:48.879 Like what becomes available to us when we stop looking at the specific person, incident, location, right? 00:16:48.960 --> 00:17:02.240 So I go, oh, traffic stop, the guy's drunk, the this, like I start to jump to conclusions, but but and I I can go like it's pretty easy to understand how I can go to the wrong conclusion, but like what is available when we stop looking at those individual things? 00:17:02.560 --> 00:17:11.119 Yeah, so so to use the metaphor of the negative, positive, dead space, positive, negative, dead space, the idea is this you can't infer what you can't see. 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.359 So take the dead space out of it, okay? 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:20.000 Is the dead space complicating this issue by being available, for example, for a place to hide or this or that or the other? 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.240 Well, there's a consideration you make every time. 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:27.440 But for this process, let's say the positive space can make me stupid. 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:32.160 I see it's a gas station, people go to get gas, I mentally check out the dead space. 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.879 I can't see, so it doesn't make me afraid, so I don't think about it. 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:35.680 There's nothing there. 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:37.039 Right, right. 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.079 So now what we focus on is that negative space. 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:47.680 So when we take a look, we start doing things like look, what are the possible outcomes of uh the observed or perceived actions? 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:51.039 It appears that those people are linked in some manner, right? 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:52.799 What's the timing in the sequence? 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.400 Well, it's funny because nobody paid attention to me until I got out of the VIC. 00:17:57.120 --> 00:18:01.600 And then

all of a sudden I see some motion and it appears that those people are coming towards me. 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.480 And now we see one per person's hanging back. 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:10.559 Well, that's important to me because that's above and beyond a normal, ordinary, everyday clinical observation. 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:14.880 What it is is my structured observation says that's interesting. 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:17.920 So now there's a couple of explanations that can be that. 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.360 The person's gonna come over and say, hey, listen, you just drove over that thing. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:22.799 It's hanging from your undercarriage. 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:24.559 Or, hey, did you know you have a flat? 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:25.279 We we see that. 00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:26.400 Hey, you're going the wrong way. 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:27.759 How does he know where we're going? 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:31.680 But but the other thing is that when I see those things, I have to measure them, right? 00:18:31.840 --> 00:18:39.519 So an inference stays with us, and it has to, you know, be something that my observation initially supports. 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:43.200 I remember being on the East Coast one day and having an argument with the second lieutenant. 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:44.799 Perhaps, well, it could be. 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:45.680 Well, I don't know. 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:46.160 Yeah. 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:47.039 Not enough information. 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:48.319 Not enough information. 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.880 We're talking about, look, I don't know everything, but what can I learn? 00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:57.039 Can I learn something useful without knowing the complete story? 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.920 Because what I want to do is I want to have a better question, Brian. 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:06.640 I want to be able to conduct a better interview without asking a real question of my environment with my observations, right? 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:25.759 And and that that's actually a good example of and I get why people do this like in a clinical sense, you know, you're asking maybe a doctor or a lawyer like a legal or medical opinion, and you give them something, and they might say, Well, I I can't I can't give you a reasoned inference based on just what you see. 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:27.920 But but and which is which is true. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.480 That might be a completely accurate thing to say. 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:35.920 However, you know, your case of the the lieutenant I like because it's like, well, maybe it could be. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:36.880 You don't have enough information. 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:42.559 It's like, okay, well, what we're trying to get here is like, but but there is enough information to start somewhere. 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.279 Okay, so so where what's the starting point? 00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:49.600 Now, maybe you don't have it all, maybe you can't commit resources, but like you you can start. 00:19:49.759 --> 00:20:04.880 So to to go back to the to the traffic stop, there's like, you know, an implied relationship between what that driver maybe tells you and then how that information relates to where they're going, right? 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.480 And meaning like this is I'm putting everything in this context. 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:15.200 And they might be they could be wrong, they could be completely wrong unintentionally, or they could be telling me a lie. 00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:22.640 Yet being near like the destination or starting endpoint, you know, only tends to support part of the driver's account, right? 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:36.240 So meaning the there's the story you're telling, the place you you initiated the traffic stop, you know, what you typically see, the time of day, the weather, the environmental condition, like this all plays into it. 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.480 And I can say whether like, is it raining or is it not? 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.759 And then there's degrees of it, but you you when someone says, Oh, I'm going here, right? 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.480 They might be unintentionally saying the wrong thing. 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:49.680 Maybe they're coming from there. 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:52.000 Like you, you know, but we almost look at it the same. 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:54.000 It's like, no, I witnessed this, you said this. 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:55.200 It's like, yeah, but I didn't mean it. 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:56.559 It's like, okay, now they're being accepted. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.240 So, so what is that like? 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:02.559 You know, how do I put all that into some sort of usable format or context? 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:03.360 You get what I'm saying? 00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:05.200 Yeah, it's so you're spot on. 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:09.840 And and the idea is that it doesn't just happen in that in that traffic stopper at the gas station. 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.640 What happens is the positive space gets in the way. 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:16.559 And so put a block on your desk in front of you and look at the block. 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:22.799 And when I look at that, that little toy Lego block or, you know, building block or whatever else, I look at it. 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.279 That positive space makes me go, it's a block. 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:26.720 But it could be a number of things. 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.600 And why is it there? 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:29.759 Is it holding down the papers because of the wind? 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:30.240 Okay. 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.120 I can't consider what's behind it because I can't see that. 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:38.319 And at this point, I have to take go with the close, my my five and twenty-fives first, right? 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.799 So positive space, but what does it mean? 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:42.480 So that would be the negative space. 00:21:42.640

--> 00:21:43.440 Where are the shadows? 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:44.319 Where are my angles? 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:56.559 So what I have to do is use the basic information that I have and then force some additional context to help me distinguish uh from confusion or a deliberate intent to deceive me. 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.160 A person can be confused. 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:01.840 Look, being stopped by the police scares the shit out of me even now. 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:02.160 Yeah. 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:02.400 Okay. 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:03.120 Yeah, you don't. 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.440 I'm looking around like I got dope in the car or something like that. 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:07.120 I'm like, uh, what do I have in here? 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.960 Sound like porky pig, though, you know, but uh and then a person goes, oh, it's deception. 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:13.840 Hold on a minute. 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:15.440 Consider that interview, okay? 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.160 We're at school. 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:22.799 The students already had the opportunity to explain what happened to the parent or caregiver because they went in and go, why am I getting called into the school? 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.160 Oh, Dad, you don't understand. 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.120 It's one of these things, right? 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.720 Let's say that's the situation. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.920 Now all of a sudden I'm there and I'm looking at that negative space. 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:35.039 Wait a minute, does that account line up or corroborate the evidence that I know that I'm seeing right now? 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.559 Does it tend to demonstrate that there's person explaining it away? 00:22:39.120 --> 00:22:40.000 Or lying about it. 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:42.160 So context helps me weigh things. 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.880 It helps me determine an ML and an MDCOA. 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:46.880 And you know where the context is going to be found? 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:48.319 In that negative space. 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:48.960 Okay. 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:54.079 So you you you said something, I watched kind of like let's follow up with it for a second. 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.360 Because you said I need to force some additional context. 00:22:57.600 --> 00:22:57.840 Okay. 00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:59.519 That's an interesting way to put that. 00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:02.160 Like what what what do you mean by that? 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:07.840 Yeah, no, no, it's a great question because now I'll be can accused of forming a Gregism. 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:13.840 But I think I think force and forge are two important words to use in your everyday life. 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.240 So I have to force perspective. 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:20.480 I have to force myself to look for context and relevance. 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:28.160 I have to force myself to search for artifacts and evidence to support a number of storylines to find out which one's more reasonable. 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.799 And I have to forge a head to do that. 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:32.319 That may be taking a knee. 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.759 It may be using binos. 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.079 It may be uh sitting in my car for a minute. 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:43.360 But the idea is that I can't just rely on what I see because that's the lure, the magnetic lure of positive space. 00:23:43.600 --> 00:23:58.079 No, and I I like I like that you put it as I have to force myself to do these things because the this goes back to you know how perception and sense making problem solving work is like our default mode is I here's the solution. 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.680 Your brain does not want to be surprised, so it just fills in the blanks. 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.400 And and and that's default mode. 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:10.480 That's what we're running on autonomically in a sense that you know it is what you think it is, it is what you see it is. 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:19.039 And so it's like, okay, no, you have to force these additional context cues and clues to go, okay, am I building this actual baseline? 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.600 Is is kind of this, does this make sense? 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:46.400 And because you know, what what you're talking about is obviously, you know, you're you're using the surrounding information, using things in the environment and other things that are known to you, and think comparisons that you can use to fill in some of these blanks with good information versus filling in blanks, you know, what that our brain's gonna do anyway, and it's gonna make some shit up, or it's gonna go off of the past fucking movie I saw, or whatever the hell it is. 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:51.840 So, so what you're talking about is you know, we're we're constructing this explanatory storyline. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:05.519 We're building it out just like, okay, you're on the traffic stop, and you know, he's the driver saying this, this, and this, and you they're traveling from here to here, or the interview the kids saying, Well, this happened and that happened, and then there was it, like there's all these different things going on. 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:12.720 So, you know, I want one is kind of like how do we organize those observations into competing explanations? 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:14.000 Because that's what you're talking about, right? 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:26.640 So when do we when do we have to sit here and go, all right, we need to assemble these observations into a story, and then when do we have to take this existing story and go, well, let's let's deconstruct that? 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.240 So it's like I'm constructing something, I'm going bottom up, or I'm deconstructing going top down. 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.519 How do I like walk me through that a little bit? 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:39.360 The the first thing is, and by the way, I've I've changed

glasses three times this week, so I don't know if these are better than those. 00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:39.920 Those are good. 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:40.640 Those are good picture. 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:43.440 The Clark's ones you had were interesting. 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:50.000 But the the the uh thing that you're saying begs an earlier observation. 00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:56.160 Look, if you go in primed to say this is a binary thing, is it true or is it a lie? 00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.160 Is it honest or is it a deception? 00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:59.920 You're already screwing yourself. 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:04.799 You have to start from a position of what do the artifacts and evidence tend to show? 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:06.880 What is it I think I'm seeing? 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.240 So don't fall for the trap of just saying, oh, it's a gas station. 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.319 Is it a gas station or is it a movie set? 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.240 And you're going, oh, we're gonna be pedantic. 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:14.880 No, I'm not. 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.920 Okay, is what I'm seeing right now set up for me to lure me into an ambush? 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:23.759 Is it to make me stop to sell me potatoes at the roadside market? 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.840 Am I getting lured in by the lower price of gas for some other reason? 00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:40.960 So whether it's the traffic stop and whether it's the gosh damn interview at school or whether it is the gas station, what we have to do is we have to construct the storyline by saying, how do these observations likely fit together? 00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:45.200 Remembering the key clue is no square pegs, round holes kind of thing, right? 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:50.319 And then deconstructing means saying I have to look at the facts and assumptions that support the account. 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:53.039 Does the likelihood fit the artifact and evidence? 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.360 Again, no round pegs, square holes. 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:58.799 Both processes mean that I have to consider alternatives. 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.079 So I'll give you one. 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.039 On the traffic stopper, remember Graham versus Connor. 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:09.360 This one the things that Brian and I talk about a lot when we're dealing with police crowds, right? 00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:14.640 So 1984, the diabetic to Thorne Graham, he feels this insulin reactions coming on. 00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:19.440 So he asks his buddy, hey, do me the flavor, go to the local convenience store. 00:27:19.600 --> 00:27:21.120 I need orange juice now. 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:29.600 So he jumps out of the sled, he runs into the convenience store, and immediately he sees, hey, wait a minute, the line's too long, so comes bursting back out. 00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:34.960 So a good copper, a copper doing his job, sees that and he goes, Holy shit, it's a crime in progress. 00:27:35.120 --> 00:27:38.240 It either got robbed or he did a shoplift or whatever else. 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.600 He fixated on one storyline. 00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:50.079 He looked at it binary, either this is good and I can't explain the good or it's bad and it's a it's a stopping rob, right? 00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:51.360 They call him that for a reason. 00:27:51.840 --> 00:28:05.680 So so what happened is that when he makes the traffic stop, and I want you to think for a minute, if you're listening to the sound of my voice, someday today, sometime today, do your gosh damn homework and look up what a diabetic reaction would be like. 00:28:05.840 --> 00:28:10.079 So you're gonna slur speech, you're gonna be unsteady on your feet, you're gonna be a little angry. 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:11.440 You get what I'm trying to say? 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:16.480 So because I went down one path, now I'm misreading all of the things. 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:17.440 Hey, wait a minute. 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:19.440 They're stopping, but they're not talking to the driver. 00:28:19.600 --> 00:28:22.000 Hey, the passenger jumped out and it's coming back at me. 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.519 It's all starting to fit that storyline, Brian, but it's one storyline. 00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:26.720 It's one storyline. 00:28:27.120 --> 00:28:29.039 I didn't look at the negative space. 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.600 I considered the positive space, it's a stop and Rob. 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:38.559 And the behavior of the person that was in the positive space, I didn't opine onto what might have happened just inside the store. 00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:41.360 What might have happened to this person before he got to the store? 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:42.880 And you're going, that takes time. 00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:51.039 It takes the exact same amount of time to jump to an unreasonable conclusion as it does to jump to a reasonable one, right? 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.840 So deconstruct and construct are the same way. 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.240 The three-legged stool, where's the fourth leg? 00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:04.240 Uh, you know, uh, am I really looking at uh a cow dial and back, or is it just a series of blots on a on a canvas, right? 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:08.240 No, and it it was actually you know, the Graham B. 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:21.440 Connor, you actually pulled in the two uh examples of a gas station and a traffic stop uh that were talking about I didn't know that was planned, but but but no, that was a that that that's what it is. 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:33.120 And and the this is what you're getting into, those those kind of uh incoherent storylines, or you know what I created this wrong, you know, uh I it was not a reasonable inference, it was an unreasonable inference, and and what that actually means. 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.960 And and again, I I brought it back to this is kind of default mode for our brain. 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:49.360 It wants a simple answer,

it wants to know everything, and so you you kind of have to force that for a second, and this is the concept of time and distance, like hang on, you know, before we uh jump to an unreasonable conclusion, what what's really going on here? 00:29:49.519 --> 00:30:00.720 And so, because that's you know you you can kind of get get in the trick bag, and another, you know, you you actually kind of hit it when you're talking about the when you gave the examples like oh, is this gas station or movie set? 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:01.600 People are like, Okay, that's dumb. 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:05.279 It's like no, no, no, that's actually a great marketing analogy, right? 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:11.360 Because when you get something online and it's like because this is podcasts and stuff like this, you're like, oh, like this is really interesting. 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:16.319 It's like, hey, that's a that's that's a marketing thing for the thing the guy's selling. 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:21.600 It's just now they're just talking about it as if it's fact or if it's science or it's this. 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.840 They're just they're just trying to get you to buy some shit. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:30.640 And like literally, like, I mean, we are too, in a sense, we're trying to get you to buy some concepts and a way of thinking and this. 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.840 I'm not selling you an actual product, but but that that's the idea behind it. 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:46.960 So, so actually like that, because this kind of goes into you getting in the trick bag when the the initial explanatory storyline or explanation is supplied by someone else. 00:30:47.360 --> 00:30:53.920 So that's your friend, that's your social media feed, that's a witness, an accuser, accomplice, whatever it is. 00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:00.400 So, how does that then influence me in this this sense-making concept and affecting this me really seeing the negative space? 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:04.240 Yeah, and so I'll I'll I'll jump back into Graham versus Connor for just a minute. 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:10.559 Other cops came to help out Connor, and those cops only knew the storyline that Connor gave them. 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.440 And Connor was convinced that there was wrongdoing. 00:31:13.600 --> 00:31:16.559 So they started from an unstable base. 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:20.319 They started from incorrect assumptions and it turned into a shit sandwich. 00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:23.519 That's why it was 84, and we're still studying it every day today. 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:25.200 It's become case law, right? 00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:28.319 So something you said is happening in the news right now, folks. 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:33.920 If you listen to this, it's uh, you know, early October 2026 for this podcast, right? 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:37.600 But it's just as relevant if it was five years ago or 10 years in the future. 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:42.240 Kratom, the the two recent deaths from

an overdose, and they're trying to link to that. 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:44.960 Well, first of all, a lot of people use Kratom a lot. 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:45.279 Yeah. 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:45.600 Okay. 00:31:45.840 --> 00:31:46.480 I have before. 00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:47.680 I didn't know this was a big thing. 00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:48.480 It was years ago. 00:31:49.120 --> 00:31:49.279 Okay. 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:54.079 And every gas station I've ever been into on the on long road trips and stuff sells them. 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:57.279 There's eight different brands with 10 different colors and all that other stuff. 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:03.519 So if I go by the marketing information and by word of mouth, there's nothing wrong with that. 00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:04.559 And it's absolutely normal. 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.559 See how that can use trick bag? 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:07.039 I love that. 00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:09.200 Because see how that can get you in a trick bag. 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.120 So now all of a sudden somebody goes, What is that? 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:11.759 Is that a drug? 00:32:11.840 --> 00:32:13.200 And you go, no, it's kratom. 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:13.840 It's everywhere. 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.720 So do you see how you're starting on faulty information? 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:27.279 So everything you go from that point on without asking questions, without questioning the things you're seeing, is delving into negative space without a rudder, without a direction. 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:27.759 Okay. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:31.279 So positive space, it's the kratom, uh dead space. 00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:35.600 We don't understand the chemical makeup of it because we're not going to be able to go there. 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:39.840 But the negative space, the questions you should ask, stuff like, well, is it addictive? 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:42.880 Like, yeah, it's almost immediately addictive because it works. 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:43.519 Oh, okay. 00:32:43.600 --> 00:32:44.480 Well, is it dangerous? 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:46.640 Brian, we don't ask that about our soda. 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:47.360 You know what I'm saying? 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.640 Like, like, most people are just now asking that. 00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:50.880 Yeah. 00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:51.519 Exactly. 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:55.519 So most people take aspirin and then they go to the doctor. 00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:00.799 Uh, you know, I've been in a doctor's office a lot this last year, and and uh, the trying to get pregnant, folks. 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:04.559 And the doctor uh uh uh tells me, hey, I gotta take these meds. 00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.840 And I'm always asking about what are the side effects, what are the other stuff, right? 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:12.400 Because I don't want, you know, the oh my God, can't do grapefruit juice or whatever. 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:14.319 That one doctor straightened me out. 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:16.559 He goes, You ever take an aspirin ever in your life? 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:18.000 And I go, Yeah, a bunch of times. 00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:20.000 And he goes, You ever read the warning label on those? 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:21.840 Yeah, ever read the side effects on those? 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.840 We take for granted those things that are in the positive space, Brian. 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:29.680 We don't delve, we don't turn it around and see how many fat grams there are. 00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:37.519 So my thing is that you can do a lot understanding that the person you're dealing with probably doesn't have a grasp of the negative space. 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:45.759 So on that very basic traffic stop where you're supposed to walk up and issue a violation, you have a plethora of information that you just saw. 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.039 You saw him pump fate, you saw him change lanes, then you saw him do a U-turn to go someplace. 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:52.240 That's all interesting. 00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:55.200 So now when I go up, officer why he's stopping me. 00:33:55.279 --> 00:34:00.400 Well, you opened the in for, you know, I need a driver's license, vehicle registration, I need the, you know, the proof of insurance. 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:02.480 Okay, hey, what was that move back there? 00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.319 You see how that's an open-ended question? 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:10.799 And a person goes, Well, I was, you know, past, I saw the Thai food restaurant and I'm on the wrong block. 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:12.319 Okay, those are plausible. 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.759 Does that fit what I'm seeing, smelling, feeling, feeling, hearing, and tasting? 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:16.960 You see how easy that is? 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:21.840 So the kid that you were talking to, hey, did you talk to your mom and dad about this, you know, this interview? 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:22.319 Yeah. 00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:24.319 Okay, and and what did you tell them? 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.679 Okay, now what I have is I have, again, baselining, right? 00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:33.119 I have a baseline that I'm laying out for what is this that I'm seeing, feeling, smelling, tasting. 00:34:33.279 --> 00:34:36.639 Not on its face, not the positive space, but the negative space. 00:34:36.799 --> 00:34:37.759 What did you tell your friends? 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:39.360 Did you tell your friends the same thing? 00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.279 Well, why did you change clothes after it? 00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:42.239 That's interesting to me. 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:43.360 You see what I'm trying to say. 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.799 Because Brian, a demonstration of intent is always going to be visible. 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:49.119 You just have to scratch the surface a little bit, right? 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:53.280 Remember the soap on the windows of a closed business, and you just wanted to see inside. 00:34:53.440

--> 00:34:55.119 So what did a construction area do? 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:59.760 A construction area took you from the positive space and you can't see the dead space. 00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:04.240 So they cut a hole in the wall so you could peek through and see what was going on. 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:05.519 That's what we're talking about. 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:12.880 We're literally talking about cutting that hole so you can see into the construction site and come to your own reasonable conclusion on what's going on. 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:13.599 Yeah. 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:22.320 So this is where, you know, you're getting this is where it gets kind of tough in a sense, where it's like, how do I determine the run-of-the-mill normal? 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:25.440 Okay, everything's fine to oh wait, this is going sideways. 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:29.280 And and that that's always where where people kind of fall into that trap. 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:33.840 And I'll I'll kind of because here's here's why. 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:39.039 I want to, you know, avoid treating inconsistencies as kind of self-explanatory, right? 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:40.480 There's things that I have to observe first. 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:46.400 So so you know, last weekend we had the the Red Bull flug tag was here in Minnesota. 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:48.800 We went down to the river and took the took the terrorists down there. 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:49.679 Me and my wife went. 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:50.559 Super cool. 00:35:50.720 --> 00:35:53.519 Shout out to the the Edmund Fitzgerald fluke tag team. 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:54.880 You're the hometown favorites. 00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:57.679 But but you know, I remember so people don't know what it is. 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:07.840 It's like they do these all over the world, and where Red Bull comes in and they build like a little thing on the water, and then everyone, you have these certain rules that your team can build a plane, but there's no power, there's no nothing. 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:16.000 It's a build something that you have to launch one of your teammates with this thing, and you go try to see how far it can go before you hit the water. 00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:17.840 And so it's really cool, it's fun. 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.440 And so we're walking up. 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:25.440 I got Max in the ruck on my back, and I'm and I'm walking up with my wife, and we go to the entrance, and you know, it funnels into this entrance of the park, right? 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:26.400 Where you gotta come through. 00:36:26.720 --> 00:36:27.840 Got the big Red Bull sign. 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:28.800 So I'm looking at it. 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:33.199 They got people out there with the Red Bull backpacks, literally handing out free Red Bull, you know, all that stuff. 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:35.599 They the marketing, the music is all there. 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:42.960 I see one guy, he's off to the side, and

he's on his phone and he is functional field of view and orientation looking out. 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.639 He's inside the gate, but he's looking out towards something or someone. 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:48.639 And I can't tell him he's talking, right? 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:53.280 But he's looking like he he he looks like he could be security, but he's not. 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:54.559 Like he's clearly not, right? 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:55.760 Because of some of the things that he's wearing. 00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:01.760 I'm like, well, he's not, but he's standing in an area where like an operations or security person would stand, right? 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:13.840 That would make sense for them to be there just checking people coming in, but they had security over here and they had the cop the the private security over here looking, they had the group of cops standing over here, kind of looking at the crowd and and just talking to each other, you know what I mean? 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:15.119 So they had those layers there. 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:16.800 And so I'm going, like, this doesn't make sense. 00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:26.720 So I snapped the photo real quick and I turn and I look, and sure enough, coming around the corner of the head is another guy on a phone, you know, looking up, doing, and then they did the wave, nod, and then they both put their phones out. 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:28.800 It's like, okay, like, but but it's the same thing. 00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:36.800 It's like he's what what I inferred from it was I had to take all those contextual cues and go, Well, who'd I typically see standing right there? 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:37.119 Right. 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:43.760 Well, typically that's like your the guy scanning tickets, the security, the person who works there managing the crowd, right? 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:49.679 It's not a typical location where someone would be standing if they didn't have a reason to be there, right? 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:55.920 And then why is this functional field of view and orientation going this way when everything that's going on is going on behind them, right? 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.159 And it's like it's at this one central location. 00:37:58.240 --> 00:38:08.800 So it was all of those things like in the environment, all of that negative space that I had to draw from to do it, and took a second of sustained observation, which is always pisses off my wife. 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:09.440 She's like, What? 00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:09.920 What is it now? 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:11.119 Like, I'm like, just give me one minute. 00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:14.400 Give me one minute. 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:19.440 I'll stop and you'll look and right so so one of the things you said is so important. 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:21.760 I want to repeat it if I can remember it exactly. 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:25.920 So, so you want to avoid treating inconsistencies as self-explanatory. 00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:31.440 And I think the adverse of that is we want to avoid treating inconsistencies as lies. 00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:31.920 Okay. 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:37.280 Okay it depends because I have to weigh things, I have to measure them. 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:39.679 I have to constantly do the math in my own head. 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:40.240 Okay. 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:44.720 The minute something seems plausible, positive space, I stop calculating. 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:45.440 That's wrong. 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:46.079 That's wrong. 00:38:46.240 --> 00:38:49.760 You got to think of your sense making, and you use, I have to make sense of this. 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.400 You actually use that in your description just now. 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.360 Okay, so you have to do the sense making ongoing. 00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:59.280 It has to be a feedback loop that's coming back to update your assumptions. 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:01.199 So the storyline, right? 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:02.400 What's the likelihood? 00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:03.519 What does it feel like? 00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:12.880 And and whether it's the interview, I'm sensing confusion, or I'm hearing the person with imprecise language, like on Graham versus Connor, and I'm receiving mistaken information. 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.320 I'm the cop that's coming up to help you handcuff the guy and go, what do you got? 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:17.119 He goes, I don't know. 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:18.639 I think I got a robbery, right? 00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:20.880 All of those things are clouding the issue. 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.440 So they're in the present right up against you. 00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:30.000 So what you have to do is you have to let those scales fall from your eyes, open that aperture, and get back to that Hoberman, okay? 00:39:30.240 --> 00:39:34.880 Sensing that confusion, hearing that imprecise language, receiving that mistaken information. 00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.639 Those are all things that are gonna take me a different place. 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.079 So with the storyline, I can look at it and go, stop for a minute. 00:39:42.240 --> 00:39:50.400 If this is true, if the storyline is logical, if it's you know fundamentally right, then what should I feel, see, hear, smell, taste next? 00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:53.119 What are the next things that are gonna come out of it? 00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.760 You were at a gosh damn event that was called flugtag. 00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:56.960 Now you speak German. 00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:57.280 Okay. 00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:00.079 So flug means fly, tag means day. 00:40:00.240 --> 00:40:03.119 So it was things flying on that day somewhere else. 00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:09.599 So behavior didn't fit what your first, your positive space definition showed you. 00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:11.920 So you had to dig deeper to understand. 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:12.880 And where did you dig? 00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:14.400 You dug

in the negative space. 00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:15.360 It makes sense. 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:16.000 Yeah. 00:40:16.240 --> 00:40:24.800 And speaking of smells, Max had his first experience with smelling someone smoking weed, which was hilarious because we down into that. 00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:26.159 Were you the one smoking weed? 00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:28.240 I just had it's good for a friend. 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.639 I'm not answering any more questions about the turning. 00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:43.599 But but uh no, but it was funny because that at that point I smell, I'm like, all right, I look over my wife, and then in front of everyone, because there was like degenerates there, there was families there, there was you know, all it was just a mix of people at this event, and it was just funny. 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:50.400 That one was funny because we smell it, and then freaking the terrorist who's three goes, something smells funny, dad. 00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:52.320 And like everyone around started laughing. 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:53.039 It was hilarious. 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:54.400 It was like, yeah, you're cheap. 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:59.039 But anyway, um let me throw that one a little bit further, right? 00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:04.639 So Brian, what you're saying is that perception led you to a conclusion, and that's exactly what we're talking about. 00:41:04.720 --> 00:41:06.480 So let me give you two really fast ones. 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:15.360 There's a great video that's out there, it's probably 25 years old now, where a state trooper, think in New York, New Jersey, somewhere, pulls a guy over on the on ramp to the freeway. 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.599 So it's one of those long ramps that goes down. 00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.400 The freeway's lower than the surface streets, thinking it's a stolen car, pulls a guy over. 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:23.519 The guy takes a minute to stop. 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:26.880 He's doing the should I stay or should I go onto the freeway, finally pulls over. 00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:32.960 And as the copper walks up, the guy's fast talking him, and the guy goes, Officer, you got to understand, I'm gonna take a shit in my pants right now. 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.840 I gotta go right now, and then floors it and leaves. 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.599 Okay, he floored it and left because the cortisol dumped into his brain. 00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:42.720 That immediately it was doing a should I stay or should I go, right? 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:47.679 So, so the funny thing was that was a pre-event indication that was missed in negative space. 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:49.039 Positive space, we saw it. 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:50.480 Dead space, you can't tell. 00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:51.119 He missed it. 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:55.119 So one more quick one that goes along with the hey, I smell the marijuana in the thing. 00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.079 So we had a couple of great cops, uh, both are dead now. 00:41:58.240 --> 00:41:59.760 So long story. 00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:04.639 But they were good cops on the road, but they were the laziest two guys I ever met, not to speak ill of the dead. 00:42:04.720 --> 00:42:17.840 So they're driving through the subs from a coffee shop to a restaurant, presumably, and they see a guy come out from the driveway, from the garage area driveway, coming out to the street in a residential subdivision covered with blood, holding his hands up, right? 00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:20.960 And so they immediately stop the car and jump out. 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:28.000 And the guy sees that they're both uniformed cops in a you know, patrol vehicle, and he goes, Hey, I just cut myself bad on my lawnmower. 00:42:28.240 --> 00:42:29.519 Is there a hospital nearby? 00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:35.119 And they throw him in the backseat and they take him to McComb Hospital center and they dump them off at the ER. 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:41.679 They leave and the call goes out, hey, anybody in Henry area, Frank area, wherever the hell it was, uh, we just had a homicide on this street. 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:43.760 Suspect fled through the backyards. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:49.679 This guy just committed that homicide, hopped over the fence, had a plausible explanatory storyline. 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:50.960 Why did they fall for it? 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:53.519 Because they got trapped in the positive space. 00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:56.960 They never thought, hey, this is too good to be true. 00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:58.159 What else could be happening? 00:42:58.240 --> 00:42:59.280 Do you get where I'm going? 00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:10.000 Yeah, so so let's let's try to they because these are so contextually based, but like let's make the inference explicit. 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.000 Like, how did how do you get there? 00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:13.119 How do you not do that? 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:17.920 So, like, what allows you to move from what you observe to what you think it means, right? 00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:28.720 So, right there, like the perfect example, the officers were like, okay, he's coming from the backyard, he's got blood, hey, he immediately comes out with this story, like you don't know any other information, right? 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.440 So, you know, it's so so how do I do that? 00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:35.119 How do I go from like, all right, here's what I observe and here's what I think it means? 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:36.960 So human behavior is consistent. 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:40.960 And when human behavior is inconsistent, it's anomalous and you should investigate. 00:43:41.199 --> 00:43:54.480 So, in a situation where you have already a gating mechanism, ML and MDCOA, most likely most dangerous, the reason that's a good thing to use is because it already sets up two explanatory storylines. 00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:59.519 Most likely this guy's telling me the truth and we got to do something emergent and

get this guy to a hospital. 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:02.800 But what would the most dangerous conclusion I could reach? 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:06.880 This guy is, you know, shot because he was committing a robbery. 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.960 This guy just butchered something illegally somewhere. 00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:16.480 Okay, so the idea is that I can run those two scenarios in my mind at the same time. 00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:19.119 And now what I start doing is looking at the baseline. 00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:20.400 Okay, what do I see? 00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:21.280 What does it mean? 00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:22.320 Which ones fit? 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:26.800 If I have too many inconsistencies, it's likely not the right story. 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:37.760 If it starts to fit naturally or iteratively, and also the person is telling me that information and I can corroborate a little bit of it, then that tends to show me that might be the right thing. 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:38.720 So then you ask yourself. 00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:40.880 What can I do to confirm that? 00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:42.639 Show me the injury. 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:46.320 Where's your, by the way, there was none, lawnmower. 00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:48.240 Is there grass cut? 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:48.800 Do I smell? 00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:49.440 You know what I mean? 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.519 You smell a lot like weed, Dad. 00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:56.720 I thought it was edibles. 00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:01.840 But but the idea is that you got to think it smells like the garage out here. 00:45:02.240 --> 00:45:02.720 Why is it? 00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:03.199 Right. 00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:05.360 Well, but but you got to think about that. 00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.559 There's so much information and negative space to draw from. 00:45:08.720 --> 00:45:10.240 You're limiting yourself. 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:10.639 Okay? 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:16.480 It's not a function of time and distance because you already have the same amount of time and distance if you do it wrong and you die. 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:17.840 You get what I'm trying to say? 00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:22.800 A wrong conclusion takes the same amount of time and same amount of calculation and energy. 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:27.440 So the idea is that once you have the two explanatory storylines, hey, stop for a minute. 00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:29.599 I need to investigate this further. 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:33.679 Now, maybe you're not in a position because you're not a cop to stop the other person. 00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:34.960 You can stop you. 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:36.960 You can stop moving and seek cover. 00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:38.639 You can drive to another gas station. 00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:39.599 You see what I mean? 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:43.199 Your personal survival has to weigh differently in those situations. 00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:49.599 So if it starts feeling like an MD and that's an explanatory storyline that you start popping hot for, you got to do something. 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:55.599 Well, this is what you know, it's it's hard for people to grasp sometimes. 00:45:56.079 --> 00:46:09.440 So we're talking about this negative space and the things that happen in the environment, but you're we're not we're giving these examples, but like we're saying, put yourself in that environment, put yourself in those shoes, which means you're not on the outside looking in. 00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:11.119 You're on the inside looking in. 00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:14.079 You're on the inside looking in or up or down or left or right. 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:23.360 Like you it which means I don't care what you what situation you're in, like you you, I mean, just pure physics says you influence the environment, right? 00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:30.800 So so you you can kind of you don't have to or or you may not be able to control the situation, right? 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:31.679 But that's different. 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:33.440 You you can still influence in this. 00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:40.559 And so one of the things that and and I I I had this in here from my for my notes came from from Dan because Dan's so good at this. 00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:50.880 Everyone I'm talking about, Dan Chavez on our team, but you know, you you and especially in some of the stories you tell, like you you make connections very quickly, right? 00:46:50.960 --> 00:47:07.280 This is your Greg Williams, this is what you do, you created HP PRNA, you're you know, you teach this stuff, you written, you text, but like so what happened in your what what happens in your reasoning in these situations that like a less experienced observer might miss? 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:09.360 Like, how do you get to that reasoning level? 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.320 Yeah, and and and so great question from Chavez. 00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:22.720 And the idea is that you have to understand the the experts compress several steps into a more rapid assessment and and we're just faster at doing that, flash the bang. 00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:26.800 So familiarity with the pattern doesn't eliminate the need to check that it fits. 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:28.960 Okay, no round peg square hold. 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:38.000 So the idea is that what you have to do is you have to explain with supporting connections in your mind in order to distinguish the facts from your assumptions. 00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:45.679 If you're still running on purely assumptions without artifacts and evidence, without seeing something tangible, then what happens is it's just ethereal. 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:49.199 Not only is it in negative space, but your answers are still in negative space. 00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:50.880 It hasn't taken a form yet. 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:51.360 Okay. 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:57.360 So what you have to do is you have to ask yourself, okay, which of these observations are supporting the interpretation that

I saw? 00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.199 Which am I getting from the environment? 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:00.960 Which am I getting from the people? 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:14.880 What of again, when we first talked about this, we were saying like you walk up on a vehicle on a traffic stop if you're a copper, does a car that's been running hot through the subdivisions fleeing from other scout cars, does it smell differently, Brian? 00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:19.280 If you didn't know there was a pursuit in an adjacent area, what would that smell like, right? 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:27.119 Okay, you were at a place that was all about the Red Bull and all that other stuff, gives you wings, literally the fluke, the flying, okay. 00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:27.360 Yeah. 00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.159 And and then you smell the the weed. 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:31.840 But you smell burning marijuana. 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:40.800 Now that's different in context from being at a hotel room and when you're checking in, smelling the room next door, being packaged marijuana where you can't even breathe and being overwhelmed. 00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:43.119 Those are things that you can weigh. 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.440 And the idea is that you have to weigh those. 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:48.480 Why would the person be telling me a lie at this juncture? 00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:50.000 Well, maybe it's embarrassing. 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.880 The fingerprint example I talked to you about a long time ago. 00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:54.240 I couldn't get this guy to break. 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:55.360 I couldn't get him to talk. 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:56.720 And we're fingerprinting him. 00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:02.559 And the idea was he didn't want to tell me about his brother because he was using his brother's name while we were doing the fingerprint. 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:04.559 He didn't want to get him into the trick bank. 00:49:04.720 --> 00:49:08.480 So there's an additional explanatory storyline there. 00:49:08.720 --> 00:49:12.240 Are you doing anything to find it or to confirm it? 00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:14.800 That's well, that that's what Okay. 00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:22.480 Well you're talking about, and you you brought up in all these different examples of sort of testing the storyline, right? 00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:27.199 Before I'm increasing my you know confidence in what it is that I'm seeing. 00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:42.400 And so I I think that keep keeping this like this open-ended running storyline is difficult to do, again, because it's sort of counter, it's not counter, but it's it's our brain is trying to give us the answer before we get there, right? 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.199 So this is why like I have to be naturally curious and not fall in. 00:49:45.280 --> 00:50:00.960 But like what happens sometimes when people get overwhelmed and they go, Well, you're bringing in all these additional questions and this, and and how I don't have time for that, or or

how am I supposed to how my how how how am I supposed to you know uh ask those many questions or find that information in in the moment? 00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:12.240 And it's like, well, you know, it you you do, but it what I'm what I'm trying to get at here is what is the additional information that would help us distinguish between alternate explanations, right? 00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:17.599 So so you're going, you like you you brought the guy out, okay, I cut myself mowing the lawn. 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:19.199 Can you take me to the hospital? 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:25.199 All right, that's that's one possible explanation for why you're standing in front of me covered in blood, right? 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:26.400 But there may be others, right? 00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:32.720 And and I think like getting to that competence level to make a decision is difficult. 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:46.400 So I asked you about the, and the reason why I asked you about the subject matter expertise stuff is because, especially when it comes to like law enforcement work and that like there's a lot of people who have that subject matter expertise, but you didn't have that at the doctor's office that the story you were telling earlier, right? 00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.679 You didn't go, oh, I should probably think about this, or oh, this isn't bad. 00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:58.320 Like, yeah, these are the side effects, but you know, the same thing is so meaning, and what that shows is outside of your area of expertise, it's very difficult to do that. 00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:00.960 But but you can use the same process, is what I'm saying. 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:03.840 So, like it's exactly the same. 00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:07.679 So, look, you are prioritizing your life. 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:10.720 So it's you, all wounds are self-inflicted. 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:16.880 So you're sitting there, uh meaning you metaphorically acting as somebody else, you're sitting there going, I don't have time for this. 00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:21.360 Well, if you're not in a fight for your life, you got plenty of time because you don't want to be in a fight for your life. 00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:22.079 And you know what? 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:23.599 There's a lot of gas stations out there. 00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.320 And if you're running late, it's because your planning sucked. 00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:28.639 Your plan that you're executing blows. 00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:33.679 If you say, Well, I don't have the time to ask those follow-up questions, so why are we doing this interview anyway? 00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:44.000 The idea is that you have to plan ahead of time for those things because you have to take a look at the storyline and artifacts and evidence and witness statements and your observations. 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:46.400 And what you have to do is you have to compare those. 00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:50.480 You have to predict what's likely happening next if I see those things. 00:51:50.720 --> 00:51:54.079 And that's an MLMD COA, and they're not weighted equally. 00:51:54.240 --> 00:51:56.639 If it's an ML, I've got plenty of time on my side. 00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:59.360 If it's an MD, I better get to the answer right quick. 00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:00.880 And that drives you, right? 00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:02.320 So you are the mechanism. 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:09.280 And whenever a copper tells me, well, I don't have that kind of time on a traffic stop, that's funny because the law gives you all kinds of time on a traffic stop, right? 00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:13.199 Unless you're fishing, unless it's a fishing expedition, unless you're wrong. 00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:14.639 So that should be your mechanism. 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:15.599 What am I seeing? 00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:17.920 What still do I have to see, right? 00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:19.360 There's a plausible outcome. 00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:27.840 If I have at least two of those, then now I gain confidence in one story over the other by asking those follow-on questions, by seeing that evidence. 00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:30.639 You ask the guy to lift up his shirt to see if he's got a gun. 00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.840 That helps you determine whether you're in danger, right? 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.000 So the same thing with the traffic stop. 00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:41.440 You stop on a traffic stop and you tell the guy in the loudspeaker, I need you to pull up into that parking lot because there's more light. 00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:42.639 That's you, Brian. 00:52:42.720 --> 00:52:51.519 That's you taking control of this situation to make sure that the storyline fits and living long enough to get an alternative explanation, right? 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:56.960 Yeah, because I don't want to, I don't want to complicate it and add conundrums that I don't need to. 00:52:57.039 --> 00:53:08.559 And so with all these, the especially even just the examples we gave, like, okay, you know, the traffic stop, the school, you know, interview, the gas station, you likely have some sort of context for that. 00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:12.480 You've yes you have some baseline for that, and and you keep it within there. 00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:14.720 I mean, the gas station is is such a great one. 00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:17.599 It's like, well, you've been to a gas station how many times in your life? 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:22.480 What's typically do you see and what's different about this thing right now? 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:38.000 And and that's enough to keep it within the frame of of what the what the context of the situation is and the environment, not adding in these additional, you know, oh, well, it could be this, or it could have been the one-armed man, or it could have been it's like that that's those aren't reasonable. 00:53:38.240 --> 00:53:39.440 Those aren't reasonable, Brian. 00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:39.840 Yeah. 00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:44.000 We've been on the East

Coast, West Coast, North, South, 53 countries, been all over the place. 00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:47.039 So there's some place that we go where you look and you go, what's that? 00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:50.480 And a person goes, well, that's the alcohol store, you know, the package store. 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:53.599 Okay, well, can I, you know, buy alcohol at the 7-Eleven? 00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:56.400 No, not in this region, state, city, or whatever. 00:53:56.559 --> 00:54:00.559 Okay, it's not so egregiously different that you go, I don't understand that. 00:54:00.720 --> 00:54:01.679 You get what I'm trying to say. 00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:03.679 You go to Scotland and a guy's wearing a skirt. 00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:06.159 Now in America, some guys are wearing skirts, right? 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:07.760 So it's not so different. 00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:13.119 So you have a category, and that file folder for those information are something that you can use. 00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:17.599 So if you're sitting there going, hey, I have to make a distinction, okay? 00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.880 What is it I'm observing and what am I inferring? 00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:24.000 The inferring is the dangerous again, the positive space. 00:54:24.240 --> 00:54:25.360 You get what I'm trying to say? 00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:30.240 And what information that I have, additional information, would change that assessment. 00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:31.119 What more? 00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:33.119 What's the next question I need to ask? 00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:37.679 What's the next thing I see or hear that's going to lead in or out of that? 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:47.760 So, in a sense, it's like sort of correctly labeling and understanding, okay, here's my my my actual observations. 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:52.720 I saw a guy in a yellow shirt cross the street from what I inferred. 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:56.720 Like here's what I saw or smelled, tasted, felt like this is a perception. 00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:00.400 You're reading your you're reading Mac's books again. 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:00.800 I'm sorry. 00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:03.920 I am I drop them off or when I drop them off at school. 00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:09.920 I say, have a you know, be a good monkey today, and he laughs because that's that's what that's what the man in the yellow hat says to George. 00:55:10.240 --> 00:55:11.119 So hilarious, right? 00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:11.599 I'm sorry. 00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:20.800 But no, but but but meaning I I think when you when you can accurately separate, okay, well, here's what I observed, and then here's what I inferred from that. 00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:25.519 You're what would that comparison alone is to go, oh, wait a minute, hang on. 00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:27.440 Like I'm seeing some gaps. 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:32.559 Because the next thing, because obviously you want to create this explanatory storyline that's accurate. 00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:34.559 Okay, I've been

doing some sense making. 00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:35.920 I think I know what's going on here. 00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:39.280 I've tested it, and okay, now my con and it's true. 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:42.159 I'm getting more evidence to support what I think is happening. 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:47.360 So kind of the next step is, well, obviously update, but like predict and act. 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:50.880 So so working from an explanation, then what can we anticipate? 00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:52.720 What decisions does that help us make? 00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:59.280 So it's always this, you know, everyone's always doing the here's the decision, or here's what we got to do, or what's gonna happen next. 00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:11.199 But like without all of that pre-work, you know, going into it, the the prediction and action and updating is like it's it's not gonna matter because you don't have a solid, you know, baseline for you. 00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:14.159 You don't fully didn't fully investigate the negative space. 00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.639 You're working off a faulty assumption. 00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:18.720 So let me ask you something about prediction. 00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:29.760 Would it be likely for me to predict that I'm going to a shots-fired call and I show up and I'm in uniform, that there's a good Samaritan that isn't the shooter that's running around with a gun? 00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:30.240 Okay. 00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:40.000 If I haven't considered that, if I haven't played that game in my brain, that I'm setting myself up to shoot a citizen or an undercover cop, you get what I'm trying to say? 00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:41.519 And you're going, well, that almost never happened. 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:42.800 No, it does happen. 00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:44.880 Well, it happens more and more now, too. 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:51.199 Of course it does, because more and more people are carrying guns and more and more people are trying to intercede in a bad situation. 00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:58.559 So why would you ask, look, if you go in and you're saying, hey, I got to confront my kid right now, well, that's an emergent situation. 00:56:58.639 --> 00:57:02.159 That's a situation that's fast before they leave the house. 00:57:02.240 --> 00:57:04.079 Now they're about to get on the bus. 00:57:04.159 --> 00:57:04.800 I get it. 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:05.840 So what do you got to do? 00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:07.039 You got to slow time down. 00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:08.639 Why do you got to slow time down? 00:57:08.720 --> 00:57:10.720 Because I need a minute to ask a better question. 00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:24.720 And if I have to call in sick to work to drive my kid to school because it's going to take me a minute for that interview, Brian, if I have to park across the street from that gas station and take five minutes to watch what's going on before I look around and go, I'm not stopping at this gas station. 00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:26.000 You go,

well, I'll be out of gas. 00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:26.639 Well, you know what? 00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:29.840 Call an Uber from your effing car and take that. 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:34.079 Because what you're doing is you're trading your safety for sense making. 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:34.800 And you can't. 00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:35.920 That's not the way it goes. 00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:38.480 Sense make, problem solve decision. 00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:39.840 You have to do it that way. 00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:45.199 And you you have to look for those unresolved questions, but you can't dwell on them. 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:48.880 You can't say, because I don't know this, I can't proceed. 00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:50.559 That's only in an MD COA. 00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:51.840 That's only in an MD. 00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:52.720 You get what I'm saying? 00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:57.760 You probably have enough information to draw a reasonable conclusion and drive on. 00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:03.280 Yeah, well, and and even when you say that, sometimes you're like, oh, I don't have enough information to do this action. 00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:12.720 What you're saying is this, okay, you you've had you've established the explanatory storyline and it hasn't met the threshold for action that your policy requires or that your whatever, whatever. 00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:14.880 I mean, you you've you've already done that. 00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:15.840 You're just saying it hasn't. 00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:16.639 Is that confidence? 00:58:16.720 --> 00:58:17.599 Is that accuracy? 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:18.639 What are those things? 00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:21.760 So now what you've done, Brian, you've just answered what the next step is. 00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:22.880 Stay on or get off. 00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:25.199 Go back to Keanu Reeves and that girl in speed. 00:58:25.519 --> 00:58:26.480 You get what I'm trying to say? 00:58:26.720 --> 00:58:28.800 Do I want to stay on and ask some more questions? 00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:33.599 Or do I want to say, yeah, calorically, this is too much of an input and just find another restaurant. 00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:34.880 Find another thing to do. 00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:37.280 You see, that's a simple choice that we make. 00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:46.800 But what happens is we're going on impulse power because we see these things in our environment in positive space and just interpret them and assume and infer what those are. 00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:57.920 Well, all we're saying is take that extra second, you know what I'm saying, or nanosecond, to confirm or to insert an alternative, likely opinion of what might be happening, a storyline. 00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:08.400 So let's let's kind of kind of bring this back to this this concept of negative space, you know, when we can't directly see someone's intent or the whole situation. 00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:13.119 How do we use the information around it without filling the gaps with our assumptions? 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:17.039 I mean, this is the big thing about negative space that we're talking about today. 00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:20.880 And you you referenced maybe you referenced the Hoberman kind of earlier. 00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:26.480 And so maybe that's a good place to like say, all right, this is this is what we mean by, you know, negative space. 00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:27.679 Yeah. 00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:34.400 So Hoberman, when you take a look at a Hoberman sphere, and if you hadn't seen one, look it up, do your gosh damn due diligence. 00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:37.920 Everywhere we go, we leave Hoberman spheres and a jack and a box behind. 00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:40.159 Both of them are positive space. 00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:43.840 They're things you can hold and look at and take a photo of and go up and tap. 00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:50.159 The beauty of a Hoberman sphere is you can grab it and as you expand it, you see the negative space. 00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:53.440 All that negative space is holding information, Brian. 00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:55.039 There's all kinds of things there. 00:59:55.199 --> 01:00:00.720 There's hypothesis testing, there's there's loops of understanding, positive and negative. 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:04.480 There's directions you can go and explanatory storylines that lead nowhere. 01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:07.039 That's where you need to be to avoid the what? 01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:09.519 To avoid that gosh damn bink, but ink, but it didn't. 01:00:10.159 --> 01:00:14.559 If you get into the trick bag, that means that that jack in the box surprised you. 01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:15.199 And guess what? 01:00:15.440 --> 01:00:20.720 Jack in the box is always the dead space that's scaring you because the dead space reveals itself. 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:22.320 And man, now I'm too close. 01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:23.840 I I miss that. 01:00:24.480 --> 01:01:22.240 Yeah, and and a lot we we talk about the gifts of time and distance, and and we really have this odd, again, I don't want to do the the Matthew McConaughey time as a flat circle, but we we have we have a very uh like our our perception of time and the effect of time on everything from just your life, your memory, or the it is is I we don't like really grasp that because we we're we we have to navigate the world, so we have to have you know all our clocks synced up and time zones and these and but those those are those are all artificial constraints or or labeling put in by humans to so as the world expanded and as there were more people and as things well, okay, we need to be a little bit more precise, we need to be a little bit so what every time that happens, we kind of like we talk about any technology, yes, it might help you in some way, but there's a no matter what it is, there's some part of it that will make you a little bit dumber, right? 01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:25.519 And or make you miss things or not fully understand things. 01:01:25.599

--> 01:01:32.320 And and you because you keep bringing up in a lot of these situations, like, all right, well, the to make a decision, should I stay or should I go? 01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:37.920 Like you like you said, there's always another gas station, there's another restaurant you can go to, you can drive your kid to school, you can do that. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:42.400 If it's that important, you know, then then you need to take the action. 01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:47.519 If but we our default mode is okay, well, you know, I'll do it later. 01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:49.519 Ah, it's probably not that big of a deal. 01:01:49.679 --> 01:01:59.119 But once you do that, now all of those things that you had already previously identified as anomalous or something that was interesting or something that deserves your attention goes away. 01:01:59.199 --> 01:01:59.760 It doesn't anymore. 01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:04.000 You've you've kind of deceived yourself in a sense to say, well, I don't have to worry about those things. 01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:09.199 So your brain goes, okay, well, the prefrontal cortex is smarter than me, and I'm just I'm just a limbic system. 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:10.720 No, yeah, exactly. 01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:11.360 Exactly. 01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:13.760 And it just goes like, oh, okay. 01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:15.280 And then you you write it off. 01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:25.920 And it and and so now you're walking in and you're already, you know, you're you're you're already at a nine, 10, and it's gonna go to 11 on this one because you your your baseline has changed so much. 01:02:26.240 --> 01:02:26.480 Right. 01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:28.480 So I I'd like to add one thing to that. 01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:30.400 Danger is always in the dead space. 01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:43.599 So when the dispatcher, when another teacher, when your friend down the road gives you some sort of advice or inkling or information or whatever else, unprocessed, that information can never be in an intelligence, right? 01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:48.639 So you taking that at face value can already mean that you're on a unstable base. 01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:51.119 Oh, you know that guy across the street, he's a drinking man. 01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:54.559 Oh, you see that guy that drives that motorcycle down there, he's this or whatever. 01:02:54.720 --> 01:03:11.119 So the idea is going off your observations and perceptions and testing those assumptions, testing those things that you infer against reality are a much better way of going through life than going in that, you know, that positive space mode of just believing all the shit that you're handed. 01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:18.480 That's how advertising fools you, that's how street people fool you, and that's how dead space creeps up and becomes that gosh damn uh jack in the box. 01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:21.039 Yeah, these are is a good point. 01:03:21.199 --> 01:03:34.639 And and you know, kind of what I want people

to take away from this is that there's just a there is a lot of useful information around the thing that has captured your attention, around the thing that you're attending to. 01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:44.639 And and in fact, you the the reason you everyone's done the you see something out of the corner of their eye, you stop and take a second look or whatever, right? 01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:51.440 Usually because something captured your attention enough to the point where your brain said, Hey, slow down a second, we may need to look at this, right? 01:03:51.679 --> 01:03:55.199 And a lot of times it's not necessarily the actual thing. 01:03:55.280 --> 01:04:03.840 It's it's act it's your brain is running off of the context of the situation and the background going like, oh, oh, wait, no, that doesn't make sense here, so I better go look at it. 01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:06.240 So there's so much information in that negative space. 01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:12.159 So whether it's, you know, during the traffic stop example, the driver's explanation is part of the picture. 01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:18.079 The location, the circumstances, what the officer can independently observe, help make sense of that explanation. 01:04:18.240 --> 01:04:28.559 So during the interview, right, you were talking about subtle changes to the story, which either exemplify or contradict the evidence might help you determine the truth from a misunderstanding. 01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:32.159 And so gas station, same thing, one of my favorite places, right? 01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:47.039 You know, you you notice something at first, but then or a person, but then as you look at how other people interact with that individual, where they move, what happens afterward, you then develop the situation where you get a better understanding, your sense making in a sense improves. 01:04:47.199 --> 01:04:52.159 And that's the connection to negative, positive, and dead space that we've been been talking about today. 01:04:52.240 --> 01:04:56.960 So the the information around something can help us give shape to the part that we can't directly see. 01:04:57.119 --> 01:04:59.679 So then we have to explain our reasoning. 01:04:59.840 --> 01:05:00.960 Well, well, why did we think that? 01:05:01.039 --> 01:05:07.840 And I like how you brought up the well, separate your your observations, perceptions from your from your inferences, right? 01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:13.440 So so here's what I saw, and then here's what I inferred, because that's what you're doing autonomically without even you realizing it. 01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:15.199 So it's what did I actually observe? 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:16.960 How did I connect those observations? 01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:18.559 What else could explain them? 01:05:18.720 --> 01:05:20.800 And what would cause me to change my mind? 01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:21.920 What if this continues? 01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:23.519 What would if I'm locked into something? 01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:24.480 I'm pretty confident. 01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:27.039 I go, well, well, what would make it not confident? 01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:31.840 What would have to happen right now that would change me from thinking what I am? 01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:42.880 So, and that's you know how we how we build and test an explanatory storyline, gives the basis for anticipating what might happen next and then choosing what to do while staying aware of what we still don't know. 01:05:43.039 --> 01:05:44.480 And and that's that's the hardest thing. 01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:46.880 For a lot of people, it's hard to like, well, I don't know. 01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:49.440 So therefore it's like, eh, it's okay not knowing everything. 01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:51.760 You're gonna have to make decisions based on that all the time. 01:05:52.000 --> 01:06:00.800 So I'd say the the to the listeners, you know, the the next time something catches your attention, take a moment to look at what's happening around it. 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:09.119 What relationships, what conditions or interactions will help you understand it better and keep asking the question we've come back to throughout this episode. 01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:12.400 What is the surrounding information allows us to explain? 01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:13.840 What are we still assuming? 01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:16.400 What can I prove in this sense? 01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:19.360 And and what can I infer from what I'm proving? 01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:24.639 And I think that, you know, alone in general, of that practice of doing that. 01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:35.360 I I mean, any I do this with every article someone sends me, every Instagram post, every podcast thing, you're like, okay, well, whatever the news story that's that everyone's talking about. 01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:44.880 So, okay, well, you're going off of someone's reporting of an event, not not the investigation and not their sworn testimony, and not the not the video either. 01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:46.400 You're going after what people say. 01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:51.920 You know, people say a lot of things, even when they're trying to be really truthful, like they brain just makes shit up. 01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:55.679 So I'll pass you, Greg, for for for any other uh uh final comments on that. 01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:57.440 But we got through a lot today. 01:06:57.760 --> 01:06:58.400 Yeah, we have. 01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:03.360 And the idea is there's so much that you don't know, but there's so much that you don't need to know. 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:05.199 I know my wife tells me that all the time. 01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:06.000 Exactly. 01:07:06.240 --> 01:07:07.599 Max telling you that now. 01:07:07.840 --> 01:07:12.079 So, but the the idea is that frame your day. 01:07:12.240 --> 01:07:15.280 Okay, what do I need to know right now about what I'm doing? 01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:20.320 I have a meeting up later, I should have some water, I gotta make sure that the tire pressure is good on the car. 01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:22.639 We go back to those very basic things. 01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:23.199 Why? 01:07:23.360 --> 01:07:26.240 Because if you follow a procedure, the plane won't crash. 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:36.320 If you go around and you check the wing damage and all those other stuff, if you make sure that your perndole doesn't have a light behind it saying, you know, check battery, check oil, or whatever else, you're probably gonna be okay. 01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:37.599 That takes time. 01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:39.760 That takes you to focus. 01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:45.920 But if your focus is too deep on the matter at hand, you're gonna let those peripherals in the negative space slip by. 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:55.519 And that's where all that information is that coalesces into a plan, into a reasonable storyline that you can go, okay, that's an ML or that's an MD, and then you can avoid it. 01:07:55.679 --> 01:08:02.880 If you don't, then what you're doing is playing pinball for the rest of life, boom, bouncing off of this, going over to there, hitting that thing, and then it's reaction, Brian. 01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:07.360 And nobody wants to, well, very few people want to just go through life and interaction right now. 01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:09.519 Yeah, that's well, we met two. 01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:11.679 I know two that came immediately to mind. 01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:13.360 That's why I had to crack correct myself. 01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:19.760 I was gonna say usually there's some sort of chemical interaction or mental health issue, emotionally disturbed. 01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:24.000 That that's that's a little bit different situation, but uh, and that's generally pretty obvious when you see it. 01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:25.679 But yeah, no, we we got through a lot. 01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:26.559 I appreciate it, Greg. 01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:28.479 I mean, thanks everyone for tuning in. 01:08:28.559 --> 01:08:31.199 We got a lot more at on our Patreon site. 01:08:31.279 --> 01:08:41.439 You can you can check it out and sign up for free for a little while and and look at the the additional things that we we put on there and that we discuss, and and also allows you to give us kind of ask us questions directly too. 01:08:41.679 --> 01:08:53.760 And if you haven't been to the Arcadia Cognarati website, any of the links in the episode details should take you to that podcast page, but it's got a cool little search function on there as well to search for different topics within the podcast that we've recorded. 01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:54.800 So they're all on there. 01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:58.159 And we appreciate everyone so much for tuning in. 01:08:58.319 --> 01:08:58.800 Thank you. 01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:02.399 And don't forget that training changes behavior.