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Welcome to Risky Conversations.
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Why?
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Because everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation.
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I'm Jamie Lee, an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics, and I help them get bolder, braver, and better paid.
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In this parts two of Gracefully Assertive, we invite discernment, strategy, and even anger into the discussion.
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Whether you're asking for a raise from a boss who ignores your emails or facing a bully looking for a target, you'll learn which tool to reach for and when.
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That's so good.
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That's so good.
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I love it.
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I love hearing how you coach your clients because my brain just lights up with all the different connections that I see with my clients who struggle in male-dominated workplaces with office politics, with feeling under.
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And sometimes a divorce, a professional divorce, is due and individuation, right?
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You are not your job.
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You are not your professional identity, right?
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But how much does our society really drill that into us and we just assume that we are what we do, we are our job with that particular position or that particular friendly relationship we had with a particular coworker or boss or supervisor, whatever.
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And then that creates all of the similar anxiety, hesitation to be like, nope, this is for you to handle.
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That's not my business, that's your business.
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A client of mine would often say, Not my circus, not my monkey.
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When she's like, That's not my job, that's not my responsibility, that's not my business.
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And we start with controlling trying to control other people's emotions, trying to control or prevent other people's disappointments or frustrations.
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That's not our job.
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That's not our responsibility, that's not our business.
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Yeah.
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Even for the people that we love, even if you have a boss that's amazing or a partner that's amazing, or a child that's amazing, it's still there's a separation between the two.
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Yeah.
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Jimmy, you mentioned boundaries.
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So when does setting a boundary turn into controlling people?
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Or just like a fancy way to get one's way or to control the outcome?
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How do you tell them apart?
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There is a difference because setting a boundary, the way I've learned the concept, and Sharia, I'm sure you're familiar with this as well, is if something happens, then I will do X.
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If a partner or professional colleague harms me, I will go to the police.
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I will file a report.
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I will not let this continue.
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I will not let it happen to another person, right?
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That is a boundary.
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But sometimes when people say, Oh, I'm gonna set a boundary, they're really hoping the other side will change so that they can feel better.
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And so that's different.
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Let me give you an example.
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I had a client, very, very high-achieving, somebody who's genuinely brilliant, and she was underappreciated.
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She was the only indigenous woman of color at her job.
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And people just threw her under the bus.
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And she found out even though she was exceeding expectations and milestones, she was grossly underpaid the going market range.
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And so she came to me, she's like, I want to feel more confident.
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I want to ask for a raise.
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And then I want to decide what I want to do with the rest of my career, because obviously this place does not treat me well, but still, I don't want to, I don't want to just walk out without giving it a good fight.
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And she got really creative with like when you think about setting a boundary, it's the definition is if this happened, then I will do X, right?
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And so in coaching, we talked about, we thought through this concept of objections.
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She could make a clear case to her boss about the clear, abundantly clear value that she has over-delivered.
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But for whatever reason, if they still say no, I say, you know, we got to be prepared because if that happens, you want to be prepared to either say, okay, then that's a clear sign I can leave this job, or I get another job, or do something, or have a statement, have a question or a statement ready, because we can easily anticipate some pushback.
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And she got so creative with this, Shade.
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I've never seen anyone, and in fact, she and I recorded a podcast interview about this.
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So if people want to check that out, it's podcast interview with me.
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And what she did was she went to her boss, she went to the CEO and she tasked him.
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She said, I want you to go find out what is the maximum amount that you can award in terms of a race.
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Load full transcript
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So she gave him a task to do, and then he came back and he said, Oh, we can do 20%.
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She's like, Great, that's what I want.
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So this is like on the borderline here because somebody didn't just manipulate.
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No, she made a request, she got the data, and based on the data, she made a decision, right?
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So I hope that answers the question.
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It does.
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And I love your client's story.
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And the fact that it felt to other people like she was manipulating.
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Interestingly, another thing that women will hear is that we're manipulative when we get what we want or we're working towards getting what we want.
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Is that she asked for what she wanted.
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CEO didn't have to go and find said no.
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And then I was gonna, I was gonna show that was actually the the proof that your what you taught her about boundaries worked.
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Right.
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Was that she made a she she like, I'm coming in, this is what I'm asking, this is what I'm asking you to do, this is what I'm asking you to come back with, and step back and let the other person then do their own thing and be their own person and come back.
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And in this case, when there's good faith, it ends up working.
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When there's good faith and the person is asking directly, and the other person is willing, it works.
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And I guess I 100% agree with you that boundaries do get used.
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I think it's mostly out of confusion.
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People do use them, they call rules, they set a rule for the other person, and then they think that's a boundary, but that's not what a boundary is.
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A boundary is I like to think of it in terms of when I teach my clients, I think about in terms of a wall around a fence around your home.
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Your doors and windows are all boundaries.
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So your house exists and you have doors and windows, and a person can come up to your door, a neighbor can come up to your door and knock and wait to be let in, or a burglar can come up to your door and break it in and come in.
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So your boundary doesn't keep people out or keep people from behaving as themselves.
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Your boundary just indicates what you will do based on the people's behavior.
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The boundary says, hey, I, you know, when you have your door and you have a lock and you have a peephole, the message is please knock.
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I will look through the peephole and I will let you
in if I want to.
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Yes.
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And so appropriate people will do that, and then you can look through the peephole and say yes or no.
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But that doesn't mean that there aren't burglars out there.
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There are some people who will still get the message of the boundary or see the boundary, hear about the boundary, and break it.
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And again, like you said, what the difference is when the burglar breaks down the door, you call the police.
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When your neighbor knocks on the door, come in for tea, you let them in.
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When your enemy knocks on the door, wherever that is, and you see them through the peephole, walk away like you never saw them.
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The difference in those three situations is really what you choose to do when the other person behaves the way they right.
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And for the right people who are knocking on the door, is an opportunity for them to show that they're showing up at decorum with the right intention, right?
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Excellent.
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Okay, so here's a spicy question for Shade.
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Okay.
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What about there are some people.
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Sometimes they're women, sometimes they're non-binary, sometimes they're a man, but genuinely it is too much.
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They're really beyond the decorum that we just addressed, knowing when to knock on the door, they don't knock.
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They just they just push themselves, they just shove themselves in through the door.
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But they're not quite a burglar, but they like they just they're reactive, they're unfair.
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Does this idea risk telling every woman that she's right?
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Even when she's just shouldering her way and through the department.
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But it's fine.
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Yeah.
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What do you think about that?
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This is my take.
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My take is that yes, I believe in teaching every woman that she the words I wouldn't use the word right, but I'm saying she needs to be her own unconditional self-champion.
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So if that woman was in front of me, I would tell her you need to back yourself up 100% of the way, no matter what.
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100% of the time throughout for the rest of your life.
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So I would say you are always, you are always, in a sense, correct in the way that you are behaving.
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Because there are reasons why that person is behaving the way she's behaving.
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Either it might
be socialization, it might be an unsafe situation, it might be her societal conditioning, it might be her culture.
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There are all kinds of things.
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That's a really great response because all but as soon as you said that, I could like think of a Korean auntie who she would just come in my house and she would start doing things, and it would just be culturally right for her.
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Okay, I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
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Go ahead.
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Absolutely.
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That's a great example.
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It's always the human is always correct, in my opinion.
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Women.
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I am I work with women.
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I'm biased.
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I'm I don't think I can tell a man that you're always correct.
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Probably not.
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I'm just so suing.
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But with women these are my people, these are like the and the truth is the human is always correct.
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So even when men behave in the way they behave, the rule applies.
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They've been conditioned a certain way, educated a certain way, culturally.
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It is true.
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And the and in their own mind, there is some element of some reason it's correct.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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The first thing is to allow the person to have compassion for themselves and to have self-championing, the permission to self-champion.
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And then the second question that is helpful is to say that are you getting the results correct?
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That's the yeah, that's a kicker.
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That's like, is it really leading to the result that you want?
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Wow.
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Okay.
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You're incorrect as a human, or you're broken or you're doing the wrong thing or doing things badly.
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It's just that in this particular situation, how can you get what you want?
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And then then we would navigate that conversation from that perspective.
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Now, in the workplace, and I know like you have a more like a more stripter and more structure when you're talking to people who be pushing reactive, unfair, the hostile boss themselves.
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How do you handle that in that context?
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Okay, I don't know if this is gonna directly answer your question, but this I had a conversation with somebody who felt that she was underpaid, underappreciated, and she was writing emails to her boss, and the emails were being ignored in her own words, and they kept getting ignored.
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I'm like, okay, how are you right?
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What are you saying in this email?
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She said, Well, we need this, we need that, we need this for the operation.
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So in her mind, she's correct because she's just stating the perceived, the observed conclusion, right?
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We need X, Y, and Z resources to make things happen.
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But from management perspective, it could seem like she's just reporting problems, right?
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And I asked her, I'm like, okay, but when I'm thinking about the kind of requests that you have in terms of changing your compensation structure and resourcing your team, these are management level decisions.
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And in order for you to influence management level decisions, you may need to consider joining management so that you could have a seat at the table, have power, and influence their decision making.
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She's like, no, no.
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I'm like, okay, then I don't know, this is gonna be tough.
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So you could either stay in your job and let it be what it is, or you get another job, get another offer.
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She's like, okay.
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Again, I'm thinking about your question.
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Well, what if somebody is?
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Like in the work where he did answer it in the sense that she was correct, right?
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She didn't like the result.
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Advocating for her team and resources.
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However, she needed to change her approach to getting what she wanted.
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Or at least, in a sense, there's any number of options.
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We did multiply options all the time.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Because she didn't like the result.
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I'm like, okay, here's a way, but you're gonna have to change who you are, right?
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You're gonna have to elevate yourself, you're gonna have to get promoted, go into management.
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She's like, no, I don't want that.
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Okay, well then it's okay.
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You can have you can keep having the same result.
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There's nothing wrong with it.
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Yeah, and then again, I'm sure as you worked with her, there were like multiple options.
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Okay, let's change the structure of the email or let's bring people into the room or things like that.
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But yeah, there's a separate, there's a separation between
the person, the results.
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And I think the attachment, we almost sometimes take our value from the results that we're getting, but as humans, we are 100% valuable all the time.
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Yes, yes, excellent.
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I'm mindful of the time, and I want to hear from the audience, people who are joined us live.
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Thank you for joining us live.
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And here's a question for you.
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So we've gone back and forth defining, clarifying, gracefully assertive.
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We kind of stress tested the idea in this conversation.
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So when is it appropriate?
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When is it right to just throw out the gracefully?
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Just be assertive, right?
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No apologies, no being nice or trying to suss out the detail and the process and rooting the room.
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When is it really appropriate?
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Just be blunt, messy, and angry if you have to be.
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Yeah, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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You can share it in the chat.
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Yeah, okay.
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Janet raised her hand, so I'm going to ask you to unmute yourself and share with us.
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Yeah.
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What are you?
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You just caught up on the news that I quit my job a year ago.
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Yes, I did by doing what you just described as setting a boundary.
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Tell me what you think about this.
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I said to my boss, if you don't take the fake vacation day off my time log, I will quit.
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Okay.
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So quit.
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And I did.
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Okay.
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And how what was that like for you?
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Because you're like, please don't have inaccurate, misleading information on company documents that misrepresent how I spend my time, right?
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That's in essence what you're saying.
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And so what was that's what happened?
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That's pretty much what happened.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Congratulations.
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Thank you so much.
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All right.
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So we've dropped the gracefully when people are misrepresenting, they're pretty much lying in couple in the documents, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, we don't tolerate that.
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Yeah.
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Thank you for watching.
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I said no to that.
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Okay.
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Good on you.
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Good on you for go.
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And Robin has a a response in the chat.
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Confronting sexual harassment, Michelle says, when you have to let go of the outcome.
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Yeah.
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And I'm curious what kind of outcomes, if there is a specific instance or example of letting go of the outcome, because sometimes letting go of the outcome can be also just a state of mind.
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Yeah.
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I think the the question and the way I look at it comes back to having all the tools in the toolbox.
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Because we do sometimes remove tools that women need with the, oh, you can't do this or that.
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There is there are times when, like you said, messy anger.
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There are times when violence is the right answer.
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Yeah.
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And so I give my clients when my clients tell me I don't want to be mean and I don't want to make a scene.
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And I tell them there are times when making a scene is the right and most effective thing to do.
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So I always give them the example of my my clients tend to be mothers because they've had kids, you know, before their divorce.
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So I use this example quite a bit.
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Which is you have a toddler, you've got a little two-year-old, and you're strolling through the park with a two-year-old, right?
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Person comes up to you and says, Hey, I'm gonna let that two-year-old in your arms.
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:26.000
I'm gonna take them for him.
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No.
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:29.839
Absolutely no.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.400
And I'm like, Wait, what is that part of that person's feelings?
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.960
Don't you think I'm a good person who would take care of the select?
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.240
No, that's and if they try to start to toddler, you push them away.
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.000
Don't child.
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:46.960
So there are situations where the messy, blunt anger, the violence is the right answer.
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:54.799
I think the key is saying is to empower ourselves to say, I'm going to use the right tool at the right time.
00:17:54.960 --> 00:18:01.599
I'm going to know all the tools and know how to use all the tools, but I'm going to learn to use the right tool at the right time.
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:02.079
Yes.
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:05.759
Yes.
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:13.680
And I'm just recalling earlier in the chat, I think Janet shared that someone told her that she's aggressive.
00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:26.799
And I think the difference between aggressive and assertive is that aggressive has violence with it, where assertive is just standing strong for what you stand for, right?
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.640
And we're just uncovering right now, sometimes being aggressive is the right call.
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:46.319
I just had a flashback to when I was a teenager and I was part of the this Christian youth group, and I'm not knocking on no shade on anyone's religion, but somebody kicked my butt in church.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.079
They're like, I'm like, no, you don't make contact with my butt.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.960
I don't care where you are, who you think you are.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.920
And like, there is no religion that is going to no, that's not okay.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:04.799
And then somebody asked me to leave the prayer, the group prayer, because they saw that I was angry.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.720
And I think as an attempt to pacify me, they asked me to pray.
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.680
I'm like, no, this is not the right time to pray for me.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:14.960
I am going to be, I'm gonna stay angry because that is not cool.
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.359
I'm not letting that happen to me ever again.
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:18.480
Yes.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:26.240
Sometimes being angry is the right appropriate response in a situation.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.359
Sometimes looking for collaboration is the right response.
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:38.079
And I think giving ourselves space to say, okay, let me take a moment to choose the response that is the most effective.
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.839
I think the way I explain it to my kids is what's the most effective response?
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:46.480
Not what's the right response or the response that they're gonna like or what they're gonna enjoy.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.240
It's what's effective.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:50.160
I I'll tell this, I don't know.
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.079
Do we have time for me to tell this really short story?
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.240
Yes.
00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:53.839
But it just came to mind.
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.400
Yes, I was hung up on a coworker, and it was the most effective only one time.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.720
I do not recommend unless it is effective and appropriate in your content.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.920
In 20 years of being in the workplace, I only did it one time, but it was the most effective thing to do.
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.920
And it saved my job.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.240
Wow, because basically she was bullying me over the phone.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:19.039
There was not going to be a paper trail to this, and I'll just say that she was bullying me.
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:24.079
It wasn't serious bullying, but I could see the signs, and she was near to the workplace.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:33.279
And there were,
and in my mind, in my discernment or my reading the room, I was like, Oh, she's trying to figure out she's looking for her target.
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.599
The mean girl looking for her target in this group of about 35 people.
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:41.119
And I was like, Well, I just need to make sure that I am not the target.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.279
And in order to do that, while she was bullying me on the phone, I hung up on her.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:52.079
And my reasoning was when you make it uncomfortable for someone to bully you, they move on to another target.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:53.119
And she did.
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.720
So I was spot on again.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:56.319
Like I said, this is the one time I did it.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:57.359
She moved on.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:01.599
There were a couple of other people who ended up losing their jobs because of her.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:02.240
Wow.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.440
But she did not speak to me for nine months.
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:06.799
Good, good.
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.039
She you kept that door shut on that.
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:16.240
She she could have come back to me or she could have emailed me, but she did not speak to me or called me for nine months because she wasn't sure what I could do.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:16.960
I was like a crook.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:18.559
She was like, I didn't like I didn't like that.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.920
Again, that's just an example of the effective, but maybe not appropriate.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:24.079
Well, appropriate for the situation.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:26.480
Yes, but it was appropriate for the situation.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:27.119
Yes.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:32.319
So speaking of effective, Sherry is an effective relationship coach.
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.680
I have been coached by you when I went through a heartbreak.
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.480
It wasn't quite a divorce, but it was going through heartbreak.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.799
And what she said to me was such a relief.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:42.240
It was so useful.
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.400
And Sherry is just amazing.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.319
As you can see, not only is she intuitive, intelligent, she is the real deal.
00:21:50.480 --> 00:22:03.039
And so, where can people go to learn more of working with you one-on-one should they find themselves navigating divorce or wanting to date again after having divorced?
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.559
Yes, thank you, Jamie.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.960
And you can find me at shadowcurry.com.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.880
And I'm just gonna put my link for a call in the chat.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.799
And you can book a call even if you're not sure you want to work with me right now.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.680
If you just want to find out more, we can talk about it.
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:18.720
Where's the chat?
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.480
We can talk about more about what I do and how I help people.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:24.240
That link is in the chat.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.759
No obligation to buy coaching from me if you come on that call.
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:32.160
Shandey Curry, S-A-D-E-C-U-R-R-Y.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:43.759
And I think mostly everyone here knows me as well, but I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics, and I help them get promoted and better paid.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:47.279
And I love the gracefully assertive framework.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:23:00.640
And I I help my clients bring it to life when appropriate, and then be assertive when effective and be aggressive and be angry when it's the right thing to do.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:01.839
All right.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:12.480
So, unless there are any questions, we have one minute and we're happy to answer any last minute questions before we wrap up.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.960
Feel free to raise your hand.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:16.720
Yeah, and is that okay, Shady?
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.039
Do you think you could if there is a question, we can stick around?
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:21.759
I have a little buffer time.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:22.960
Good.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:30.480
Whether if Janet has a follow-up question or anyone else who's still here has a follow-up question.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:31.759
Yeah, you know what?
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.240
Can I just be assertive at you for a minute?
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:36.079
Okay.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.599
I'm tired of people calling me Janet this week.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:41.119
My name is Jeanette.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:42.960
Oh my god! Jeanette.
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:44.400
I'm so sorry.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:46.960
Jeanette.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.559
Jeanette, you got it.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:50.799
Thank you for calling me out.
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:53.200
Thank you for calling me to practice.
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:56.240
I appreciate it.
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:57.759
Jeanette.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:23:59.839
I've talked to you before.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:05.519
Okay, so you have to pro Jeanette, you have to promise to forgive me.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:08.000
I see that you're trying, so yes.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:09.200
Alright.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.240
We're all forgiven here, but Jeanette.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.640
Alright, thank you everyone.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:16.319
Thanks everyone for joining.
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:17.680
It was a pleasure to be in here.
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:19.119
Such a fun conversation.
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:20.000
Yes.
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:21.200
Thank you.
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.559
Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations.
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:31.759
Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation.
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:36.160
And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:47.200
If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jam the coach.com slash apply.
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:53.680
J A N I E L E E C O A C H dot com slash apply.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:00.559
We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms.
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:05.440
Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:06.880
Talk soon.