When Giftedness Outpaces Character | Chuck DeGroat-এর সম্পূর্ণ প্রতিলিপি

you know, w we we can be habituated into this state of 56 00:04:40,970 --> 00:04:45,000 Chuck: inattention, right? This state of distraction 57 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:45,050 Loren: Mm-hmm. 58 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,582 Chuck: where where we're just pulled in the these different directions. 59 00:04:48,582 --> 00:04:53,396 Chuck: That's why it's so important to well pay it pay attention to what we pay attention to, 60 00:04:53,396 --> 00:04:58,041 Chuck: right? Is what we always say. For me, that question in Genesis chapter three, where 61 00:04:58,041 --> 00:05:00,000 Chuck: are you, is so important because at 62 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:00,050 Loren: Yeah. 63 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,676 Chuck: any time of the day that could that could stop me in my tracks and I could just sort 64 00:05:05,676 --> 00:05:10,000 Chuck: of be awakened to the reality that I'm not quite here right now. 65 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,721 Loren: Yeah. Yeah, it reminds me of your last book, which highly recommend for folks. 66 00:05:12,721 --> 00:05:13,000 Loren: And that 67 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,000 Chuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 68 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,708 Loren: was such good such good content and reminders there. 69 00:05:18,708 --> 00:05:24,697 Loren: This is making me think of like a really hard question right off the bat that I sort 70 00:05:24,697 --> 00:05:30,616 Loren: of want to ask you. And I can't remember where I heard this, but I was listening to 71 00:05:30,616 --> 00:05:36,605 Loren: something else recently and it in the the idea that like there's so much content and 72 00:05:36,605 --> 00:05:41,097 Loren: information available to us, especially as as ministry leaders. 73 00:05:41,097 --> 00:05:47,230 Loren: And I don't think like all that content information is is healthy or or helpful maybe. 74 00:05:47,230 --> 00:05:53,005 Loren: But also like it it can be it can be seen as a point of privilege to say like I'm 75 00:05:53,005 --> 00:05:56,000 Loren: gonna to shut myself off from some things. 76 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Chuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 77 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,586 Loren: How do you when you're coaching or or working with pastors and ministry leaders, like 78 00:06:01,586 --> 00:06:05,046 Loren: 'cause I mean, like one could say like Chuck, thirty minutes, like wow, that is so 79 00:06:05,046 --> 00:06:08,000 Loren: privileged to just cut yourself off from the world for thirty minutes. 80 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,182 Chuck: Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 81 00:06:11,182 --> 00:06:17,063 Chuck: Yeah, absolutely. I mean well, I mean, none of us can give our attention fully to all 82 00:06:17,063 --> 00:06:19,000 Chuck: the things in any given day, 83 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:19,050 Loren: Yeah. 84 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,078 Chuck: right? And and obviously it's more complex nowadays with with our access. 85 00:06:23,078 --> 00:06:26,598 Chuck: I mean, I didn't grow up in a world where we had access, right? 86 00:06:26,598 --> 00:06:29,000 Chuck: I mean we'd watch the nightly news and we'd 87 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,000 Loren: Right. Yeah. 88 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,199 Chuck: find out what was going on, but then there was twenty four hour news and we thought, 89 00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:41,150 Chuck: well now we're you know, we're in it. It'll never get worse than this, you know. 90 00:06:41,150 --> 00:06:46,349 Chuck: And now we've got we've got our phones with notifications at any time of the day, at 91 00:06:46,349 --> 00:06:49,443 Chuck: any point, you know, social media, all the things. 92 00:06:49,443 --> 00:06:54,765 Chuck: I it's always striking to me that, you know, Jesus, I mean, if I were the Trinity kind 93 00:06:54,765 --> 00:07:00,026 Chuck: of thinking about well, how to do this most effectively, like if we're gonna Jesus is 94 00:07:00,026 --> 00:07:04,111 Chuck: gonna become incarnate and engage in public ministry in the world. 95 00:07:04,111 --> 00:07:07,762 Chuck: Let's let's let's do that in a big chunk, like fifty years. 96 00:07:07,762 --> 00:07:09,000 Chuck: You know, let's make 97 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:09,050 Loren: Mm-hmm. 98 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,335 Chuck: sure we use that time effectively. And and yet we've got three years and lots of time 99 00:07:15,335 --> 00:07:20,404 Chuck: where, you know, he could be out ministering, but he goes and prays. 100 00:07:20,404 --> 00:07:21,000 Chuck: And 101 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Loren: Mm-hmm. 102 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,415 Chuck: lot lots of people that he passes by on the way that he could have healed. 103 00:07:28,415 --> 00:07:29,000 Chuck: And 104 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:29,050 Loren: Yeah. 105 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:34,078 Chuck: it's just striking to me that, you know, we We're limited and we've got to remember 106 00:07:34,078 --> 00:07:37,198 Chuck: that. That goes back to Genesis chapter three, too. 107 00:07:37,198 --> 00:07:40,074 Chuck: We're dust, and to dust we shall return, right? 108 00:07:40,074 --> 00:07:43,622 Chuck: And in in our limitations, there's only so much we can do. 109 00:07:43,622 --> 00:07:46,498 Chuck: I'm a therapist, I'm a professor, I'm a writer. 110 00:07:46,498 --> 00:07:50,475 Chuck: I'm I'm engaged in people's lives in a variety of different ways. 111 00:07:50,475 --> 00:07:55,614 Chuck: And and I think you are too. And at some point we've got to be able to say it's time 112 00:07:55,614 --> 00:07:58,000 Chuck: to turn on the Yankees game and exhale, 113 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,000 Loren: Yeah. 114 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,000 Chuck: right? Because I can't hold 115 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,000 Loren: I I never exhale during those games, so I increase anxiety. 116 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,138 Chuck: Yeah, okay, there you go. That's fair. That's fair. 117 00:08:07,138 --> 00:08:12,000 Chuck: Like we were not we were not designed to cr to to hold the weight of the world. 118 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,000 Loren: Yeah. 119

00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,356 Chuck: and if you do try to do that, well you're probably gonna end up in my office talking 120 00:08:17,356 --> 00:08:20,000 Chuck: about burnout or exhaustion or something like that. 121 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,100 Loren: Yeah. Well I I appreciate you engaging me a a a challenging question right off the 122 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:25,000 Loren: bat. We're here to 123 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Chuck: Yeah. 124 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,352 Loren: talk about Chuck's new book, Who You're Becoming, the slow and courageous work of 125 00:08:31,352 --> 00:08:34,260 Loren: cultivating character in a narcissistic age. 126 00:08:34,260 --> 00:08:39,150 Loren: Do you wanna just first talk about like why you wanted to write this book? 127 00:08:39,150 --> 00:08:41,000 Loren: What were your goals for it? 128 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,683 Chuck: Yeah. Well, I'll just put it really simply. 129 00:08:43,683 --> 00:08:48,925 Chuck: I I have been alongside a lot of people talking about spiritual and emotional health 130 00:08:48,925 --> 00:08:54,229 Chuck: and practices for a long, long time now. my first job in the late 90s as a pastor was 131 00:08:54,229 --> 00:08:59,284 Chuck: pastor of spiritual formation. And I I've led people on retreats and done all the 132 00:08:59,284 --> 00:09:04,463 Chuck: things, right? And yet I think a few more than a few years ago, I started wondering 133 00:09:04,463 --> 00:09:09,331 Chuck: with all of this, with all these resources for spiritual and emotional health. 134 00:09:09,331 --> 00:09:14,635 Chuck: are we becoming a people who are loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, gentle, you 135 00:09:14,635 --> 00:09:18,254 Chuck: know, faithful? You know what I'm getting at there, right? 136 00:09:18,254 --> 00:09:21,000 Chuck: I mean, are we are we becoming a people that 137 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Loren: Yeah, fruits of the spirit. 138 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:28,040 Chuck: look like the fruits of the spirit? Are we becoming a people that look like Jesus? 139 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,727 Chuck: Am I becoming that person with all the resources for health? 140 00:09:31,727 --> 00:09:36,767 Chuck: and and obviously, I mean I just wrote a book on on how to do the deep work around 141 00:09:36,767 --> 00:09:39,901 Chuck: your story and around your body and nervous system. 142 00:09:39,901 --> 00:09:44,880 Chuck: All this work that I'm committed to and we're committed to, that's one of the big 143 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,584 Chuck: questions of the book is what's the tell us? 144 00:09:47,584 --> 00:09:50,964 Chuck: You know, who are we becoming, right? That's the title. 145 00:09:50,964 --> 00:09:53,607 Chuck: And so that really gets to the heart of it. 146 00:09:53,607 --> 00:09:56,926 Chuck: And it goes in lots of different directions, you know. 147 00:09:56,926 --> 00:10:00,245 Chuck: This is not simply a book on the fruits of the spirit. 148 00:10:00,245 --> 00:10:05,223 Chuck: I mean, we I I I go down many different roads in the book, but that's kind of the 149 00:10:05,223 --> 00:10:10,508 Chuck: general for me as I was wrestling with it, that was kind of what I was bringing to the 150 00:10:10,508 --> 00:10:11,000 Chuck: book. 151 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,106 Loren: Yeah. Well, I gotta say, like most books I just burn through and read very fast. 152 00:10:16,106 --> 00:10:21,532 Loren: Your book was such where I really found myself I mean, you certainly build in in each 153 00:10:21,532 --> 00:10:23,000 Loren: the end of each chapter 154 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,000 Chuck: Mm. 155 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,000 Loren: pauses and and ways to kind of take in the 156 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:28,050 Chuck: Mm-hmm. 157 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,750 Loren: content and practice. Like I'm thinking that you had a lot of kind of like body stuff 158 00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:34,000 Loren: touching your chest if I remember. So like I f like 159 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,000 Chuck: Uh-huh, uhhuh. Sloy done. 160 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,796 Loren: I say this honestly, like this is one of the few books where I I actually stopped 161 00:10:41,796 --> 00:10:45,526 Loren: would read a chapter at a time because the content was so good. 162 00:10:45,526 --> 00:10:46,000 Loren: So I 163 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,000 Chuck: Mm. Mm. Mm. 164 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,188 Loren: wanna recommend that for listeners. So something certainly I noticed throughout the 165 00:10:53,188 --> 00:10:58,375 Loren: book was IFS or internal as I understood it, internal family systems sort of is a a 166 00:10:58,375 --> 00:11:01,312 Loren: subcharacter, if you will, throughout the book. 167 00:11:01,312 --> 00:11:04,000 Loren: Do you want to just briefly explain IFS and 168 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:04,050 Chuck: Yeah. 169 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,000 Loren: what that's about? 170 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,473 Chuck: Yeah, yeah. I mean the the technical name of a kind of a counseling modality is 171 00:11:10,473 --> 00:11:14,606 Chuck: internal family systems, but it it sometimes goes by the name parts work. 172 00:11:14,606 --> 00:11:17,380 Chuck: There are other people who've engaged parts work. 173 00:11:17,380 --> 00:11:22,136 Chuck: And to really simplify it, because this is in the spiritual formation tradition too. 174 00:11:22,136 --> 00:11:26,609 Chuck: In fact you know, I I often point people to the work of a woman named Elizabeth 175 00:11:26,609 --> 00:11:29,044 Chuck: O'Connor who's writing in the late sixties. 176 00:11:29,044 --> 00:11:33,800 Chuck: She wrote a book called Our Many Cells. It was a spiritual retreat for her church in 177 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,386 Chuck: Washington, DC, where she was talking about our the different parts of us, right? 178 00:11:38,386 --> 00:11:43,255 Chuck: The simple way of maybe explaining it is when you wake up in the morning, there may be 179 00:11:43,255 --> 00:11:48,068 Chuck: a part of you that wants to get

out of bed and get get to work, you know, is ready to 180 00:11:48,068 --> 00:11:52,767 Chuck: open your inbox and and get productive. And there may be another part of you that's 181 00:11:52,767 --> 00:11:57,014 Chuck: like, let's pull the covers over the head. I do not want to get out of bed. 182 00:11:57,014 --> 00:12:01,486 Chuck: There may be yet another part of you pulling you to, but I've got my daughter's 183 00:12:01,486 --> 00:12:04,148 Chuck: recital and I I really don't want to miss that. 184 00:12:04,148 --> 00:12:06,978 Chuck: And yet I've got the, you know, the thing at work. 185 00:12:06,978 --> 00:12:11,508 Chuck: And so at as we begin to pay attention to our lives, what we realize is what St. 186 00:12:11,508 --> 00:12:16,207 Chuck: Augustine realized, what, 15, 16, 1700 years ago, that we're fragmented, that we're 187 00:12:16,207 --> 00:12:17,000 Chuck: pulled in lots 188 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000 Loren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 189 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,010 Chuck: of different directions. And so it's really a matter of paying attention to where 190 00:12:25,010 --> 00:12:28,722 Chuck: we're pulled. And as Augustine says, Returning to ourselves. 191 00:12:28,722 --> 00:12:32,000 Chuck: that's easier said than done, right? And particularly 192 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,000 Loren: Right. 193 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,624 Chuck: when as we we understand trauma when parts of us are kind of frozen in the past, you 194 00:12:37,624 --> 00:12:39,000 Chuck: know, hard things happen. 195 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,000 Loren: Mm-hmm. 196 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,322 Chuck: And it's like as as a guy told me just recently, you know, he he was leading a a staff 197 00:12:44,322 --> 00:12:48,392 Chuck: meeting for his church and he said I felt like I was I was twelve years old again 198 00:12:48,392 --> 00:12:50,000 Chuck: being bullied on the playground. 199 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,000 Loren: Mm. 200 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,287 Chuck: yeah, there are there are things like that that we've gotta be aware of, but They're 201 00:12:56,287 --> 00:12:59,497 Chuck: it's just simply an invitation to to pay attention. 202 00:12:59,497 --> 00:13:00,000 Chuck: Yeah. 203 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,000 Loren: Yeah. Yeah. 204 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,000 Chuck: And to return to ourselves. 205 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,049 Loren: Yeah. I I find it I don't wanna get you know, I don't wanna make this all about you 206 00:13:08,049 --> 00:13:10,000 Loren: counseling me here, but it's good stuff. 207 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,000 Chuck: Ha ha ha. 208 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:20,019 Loren: two thoughts I had as I was reading the book, and may we'll take this in parts here, 209 00:13:20,019 --> 00:13:27,038 Loren: but one is that I think so often churches assume gift no, we assume that woundedness 210 00:13:27,038 --> 00:13:34,224 Loren: is giftings. Like we're acting so often I think it seems like What people are doing is 211 00:13:34,224 --> 00:13:41,326 Loren: is praised and encouraged. And I I sort of just wonder how often it's actually people 212 00:13:41,326 --> 00:13:44,000 Loren: acting out of their woundedness. 213 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,000 Chuck: yeah. 214 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,883 Loren: and and and similarly, like, how do churches promote healthy spirituality when that 215 00:13:51,883 --> 00:13:57,273 Loren: means asking some people to step back and others to step forward? 216 00:13:57,273 --> 00:14:02,000 Loren: So yeah, I I've given you a lot there. Maybe talk through 217 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,000 Chuck: Yeah. 218 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Loren: one at a time. 219 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,785 Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. I mean i it it's a complicated question and it reminds me it's always 220 00:14:08,785 --> 00:14:13,630 Chuck: helpful to think about it less in the abstract and more more in in terms of actual 221 00:14:13,630 --> 00:14:18,592 Chuck: people. I mean, I remember years ago when I was a pastor and there was an incredibly 222 00:14:18,592 --> 00:14:22,610 Chuck: gifted audio engineer in our church and he made us all sound better. 223 00:14:22,610 --> 00:14:27,454 Chuck: He made it's a church of about eight hundred to thousand people and and big enough 224 00:14:27,454 --> 00:14:32,416 Chuck: where you have you know, you have a worship team and You're singing your 1990s songs 225 00:14:32,416 --> 00:14:37,497 Chuck: or whatever back in the day. And but I remember you know, he was he's being because of 226 00:14:37,497 --> 00:14:42,401 Chuck: his work, his volunteer work, this wasn't his his day job, he was spending a lot of 227 00:14:42,401 --> 00:14:45,000 Chuck: time at work and then at the church. And I I 228 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:45,050 Loren: Yeah. 229 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:50,533 Chuck: encountered his young son one day, and his son was really kind of dejected that dad 230 00:14:50,533 --> 00:14:53,000 Chuck: was again busy with church stuff. And 231 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:53,050 Loren: Mm. 232 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,608 Chuck: so I had a conversation with this guy and about hey, you're you're clearly really 233 00:14:58,608 --> 00:15:02,762 Chuck: gifted, but This is pulling you away from what what matters. 234 00:15:02,762 --> 00:15:06,915 Chuck: And that's hard to say because you make us all sound better. 235 00:15:06,915 --> 00:15:09,892 Chuck: that that's where this gets complex, right? 236 00:15:09,892 --> 00:15:11,000 Chuck: Because clearly, 237 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,000 Loren: Yeah. 238 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,187 Chuck: clearly there are people who get up in front and lead in a variety of different ways, 239 00:15:18,187 --> 00:15:23,190 Chuck: whether it's in public life or ministry or churches or whatever it might be, where 240 00:15:23,190 --> 00:15:28,377 Chuck: their character hasn't quite caught up and where their wounds are maybe invisible and 241 00:15:28,377 --> 00:15:33,564 Chuck: yet apparent. You know, if you're in You know,

if you're in regular relationship with 242 00:15:33,564 --> 00:15:38,750 Chuck: them. And so it's I think it's a matter, I mean, there there are different ways we're 243 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:43,815 Chuck: we're approaching this. One is we're just these days we're just triaging situations 244 00:15:43,815 --> 00:15:48,636 Chuck: where, you know, where character hasn't caught up and some of these leaders are 245 00:15:48,636 --> 00:15:53,883 Chuck: getting in trouble. But we we might want to just kind of take a step back and ask more 246 00:15:53,883 --> 00:15:58,094 Chuck: about formation. what would it look like to take character seriously? 247 00:15:58,094 --> 00:16:03,342 Chuck: What would it look like to think through what it means to become people who are people 248 00:16:03,342 --> 00:16:08,162 Chuck: of love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and how how is that kind of 249 00:16:08,162 --> 00:16:13,349 Chuck: character cultivated. And that's kinda kinda what I'm trying to do, you know, in this 250 00:16:13,349 --> 00:16:18,108 Chuck: writing is to to think about that, to step back and ask, how does that happen? 251 00:16:18,108 --> 00:16:20,000 Chuck: at a at that formational level. 252 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,545 Loren: Yeah, yeah, because I can see that, especially with your example, you know, imagining 253 00:16:24,545 --> 00:16:29,037 Loren: that this this man, this father, might feel a be somewhat of a perfectionist, if you 254 00:16:29,037 --> 00:16:30,000 Loren: will, perhaps, and 255 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,000 Chuck: Yeah. 256 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,000 Loren: just feeling this need to like I have to. And again, it 257 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Chuck: Yes. 258 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,939 Loren: soft sometimes in church settings it's like, this guy is so gifted and he's so 259 00:16:38,939 --> 00:16:40,000 Loren: committed and he's so 260 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,000 Chuck: Mm-hmm. 261 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Loren: and it's it's hard to be like, Hey, maybe you should step back, right? 262 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,918 Chuck: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard. And and you know, I mean, I think I think 263 00:16:49,918 --> 00:16:55,159 Chuck: especially today where churches feel like they're in competition with others, you 264 00:16:55,159 --> 00:16:56,000 Chuck: know, and I I 265 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:56,050 Loren: Yeah. 266 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:01,333 Chuck: know we were in the shadow of a megachurch back then and you know, so like audio 267 00:17:01,333 --> 00:17:06,867 Chuck: quality was really important to the senior pastor at the time, you know, and and he 268 00:17:06,867 --> 00:17:12,533 Chuck: could get real spicy with with you know the A V people and the audio engineers and if 269 00:17:12,533 --> 00:17:17,467 Chuck: if they didn't do their jobs well. Well, we we were I was I was engaging a 270 00:17:17,467 --> 00:17:23,067 Chuck: conversation of this man's character. I was engaging a conversation of his spiritual 271 00:17:23,067 --> 00:17:26,667 Chuck: formation. I think what church oughta be about, right? 272 00:17:26,667 --> 00:17:32,133 Chuck: I was asking him to step back for the sake of his own deepening life in Jesus, his 273 00:17:32,133 --> 00:17:37,067 Chuck: family. And yet I I think it's really easy to say, No, no, no, no, no, no. 274 00:17:37,067 --> 00:17:39,000 Chuck: We need him. Like we can't do 275 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,000 Loren: Yeah. 276 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Chuck: for the kingdom work to be done, you know, we need 277 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,000 Loren: Yeah. 278 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,755 Chuck: so and so in that role. And so it can get really confusing. 279 00:17:47,755 --> 00:17:52,973 Chuck: And I'm I'm not b because I've done this as a pastor and I know you've been in the 280 00:17:52,973 --> 00:17:57,236 Chuck: trenches. I mean, these are we're not just talking abstractly here. 281 00:17:57,236 --> 00:18:02,709 Chuck: We know we know these are really complicated conversations to have as teams, you know, 282 00:18:02,709 --> 00:18:05,000 Chuck: with boards and elders and so forth. 283 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:10,346 Loren: Yeah. Yeah, they are complicated. certainly, I mean I mean, certainly I don't want to 284 00:18:10,346 --> 00:18:15,000 Loren: belabor this point, but it just seems like there's so many stories we hear 285 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Chuck: Mm-hmm. 286 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,990 Loren: of folks getting burned out of church and sort of needing to take a break just because 287 00:18:20,990 --> 00:18:25,167 Loren: there's not that like, hey, maybe it's time for you to take a step back. 288 00:18:25,167 --> 00:18:30,041 Loren: certainly I I don't want someone to take a step back from participation in Christian 289 00:18:30,041 --> 00:18:33,000 Loren: worship or their spiritual practices, but also like 290 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,000 Chuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 291 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,237 Loren: Maybe they don't need to, like you said for your example of someone being at the 292 00:18:38,237 --> 00:18:41,676 Loren: church working full time and then being at church another twenty, thirty, forty hours 293 00:18:41,676 --> 00:18:42,000 Loren: a 294 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,000 Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. 295 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,000 Loren: week. 296 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:51,000 Chuck: Yeah. And maybe, you know, maybe a a pastor who is proud or arrogant or even 297 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,789 Chuck: narcissistic doesn't need to be on the platform. 298 00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:57,000 Chuck: I mean, this is what Gregory 299 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:57,050 Loren: Yeah. 300 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:02,743 Chuck: the Great was saying in the sixth century to to pastors and leaders back then as Pope, 301 00:19:02,743 --> 00:19:06,215 Chuck: you know, Pope Gregory the Great. character matters. 302 00:19:06,215 --> 00:19:11,824 Chuck: And you know, of course he used language of

vainglory, not narcissism, but it I mean 303 00:19:11,824 --> 00:19:17,300 Chuck: essentially was saying, you know, if if if if your reputation, if your approval, I 304 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:23,042 Chuck: mean the very things that we're talking about today matters more than who you are, who 305 00:19:23,042 --> 00:19:28,251 Chuck: you're becoming, that's a problem. And so yeah, maybe we do need to step away. 306 00:19:28,251 --> 00:19:33,860 Chuck: But yeah, that it makes us a little itchy, like will the kingdom go forth without my 307 00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:38,000 Chuck: incredible prophetic voice, you know, leading from the pulpit. 308 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:43,721 Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you point the other side of that dynamic of someone who's extremely 309 00:19:43,721 --> 00:19:49,651 Loren: gifted, but may not have the character, you know, and for a church to be able to say, 310 00:19:49,651 --> 00:19:52,930 Loren: like, hey, let's let's style that back for now. 311 00:19:52,930 --> 00:19:56,628 Loren: that's a hard decision, but I think an important one. 312 00:19:56,628 --> 00:20:02,000 Loren: I think related to this this question or to this topic is this idea of sin or 313 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,000 Loren: understanding sin as b behavior management, 314 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:05,050 Chuck: Mm-hmm. 315 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,152 Loren: where you can probably get at this more the connection more distinctly than I'm going 316 00:20:10,152 --> 00:20:11,000 Loren: to right here. 317 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,000 Chuck: Yeah. 318 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,900 Loren: But I think like someone who's like to use that stereotypical, infamous, narcissistic 319 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:23,731 Loren: leader who you've certainly written about in the past and talked about, like there's 320 00:20:23,731 --> 00:20:29,354 Loren: this idea that like if we can control their behavior and and sort of keep them in 321 00:20:29,354 --> 00:20:35,115 Loren: line, you know, and I think what you argue certainly in the past and and still here 322 00:20:35,115 --> 00:20:40,876 Loren: too, that if you're not if you're just looking at it as like behavioral management, 323 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:44,000 Loren: that's not gonna solve the the deeper issues. 324 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,569 Chuck: Yeah, no, it doesn't. And that's how we often treat it. 325 00:20:47,569 --> 00:20:52,436 Chuck: And and particularly where there are significant things like moral failure. 326 00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:57,886 Chuck: It's you know, let's send you off on a sabbatical for six to eight weeks or send you 327 00:20:57,886 --> 00:21:01,845 Chuck: to a therapist for six sessions and get that fixed, you know. 328 00:21:01,845 --> 00:21:07,360 Chuck: And and and and Yeah, we we don't we've sort of fail to recognize that it's rooted in 329 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:12,162 Chuck: deeper patterns and habits of the heart that need to be recognized, right? 330 00:21:12,162 --> 00:21:17,353 Chuck:

And so I always I was when I'm sort of engaging this work individually or within 331 00:21:17,353 --> 00:21:22,934 Chuck: systems, I always want to move from behavior down to patterns and ask what's this look 332 00:21:22,934 --> 00:21:27,022 Chuck: like over time? Now there there are one off things that happen. 333 00:21:27,022 --> 00:21:32,603 Chuck: You know, I give the example of a a colleague at one point that you know had a a a bad 334 00:21:32,603 --> 00:21:38,183 Chuck: moment in a staff meeting and we all knew that there was more going on in his life and 335 00:21:38,183 --> 00:21:40,000 Chuck: family, right? There are one 336 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:40,050 Loren: Mm-hmm. 337 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,947 Chuck: off things, but when you when you take a look beneath the waterline, you might say, 338 00:21:45,947 --> 00:21:52,109 Chuck: and and begin to analyze it at level patterns or habits, what you realize is that this 339 00:21:52,109 --> 00:21:58,271 Chuck: isn't this didn't start yesterday. And likely, you know, this is showing up not not as 340 00:21:58,271 --> 00:22:02,140 Chuck: a one-off, but more as a byproduct of one's formation. 341 00:22:02,140 --> 00:22:03,000 Chuck: And so we've 342 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,000 Loren: Yeah. 343 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,192 Chuck: got to look at it more from the level of formation, story, relationship. 344 00:22:09,192 --> 00:22:15,178 Chuck: and and if we look at it from that perspective, at least in the work that I do, the 345 00:22:15,178 --> 00:22:19,000 Chuck: the turnaround time isn't as quick, you know, because 346 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000 Loren: Yeah. 347 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,270 Chuck: if these habits were formed over the course of years, it may take that reformation, 348 00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:28,000 Chuck: that transformation may take years as well. 349 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:37,229 Loren: It's interesting it's interesting you talk about that understanding of problematic 350 00:22:37,229 --> 00:22:44,771 Loren: behavior, sinful behavior as a one-off versus like systemic, right? 351 00:22:44,771 --> 00:22:54,000 Loren: Of their lack of formational character. Like, you know, if someone's going through 352 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,000 Chuck: Yeah. 353 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,484 Loren: a a crisis, like they're not gonna be their best self. 354 00:23:00,484 --> 00:23:01,000 Loren: Like 355 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Chuck: Yeah. 356 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:08,000 Loren: I'm thinking of I just read this book on Canadian youth hockey culture and it was 357 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,444 Loren: quite just horrific, right? Of these young men's approaches. 358 00:23:12,444 --> 00:23:18,667 Loren: And it seems like story after story was like when they misbehaved, it was like, this 359 00:23:18,667 --> 00:23:22,370 Loren: is this is just a one off. This is just a one off. 360 00:23:22,370 --> 00:23:28,444 Loren: Yet the the author goes through painstakingly detailed effort to

show like this is 361 00:23:28,444 --> 00:23:30,000 Loren: more systemic rot. So 362 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,000 Chuck: Yeah. 363 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,472 Loren: what like I don't know, have you even thought like what's that about or why do we 364 00:23:35,472 --> 00:23:40,000 Loren: always want to just assume it's a one off rather than looking at the systemic rot? 365 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,310 Chuck: Yeah. Well You know, individually it's easier, culturally, systemically it's easier, 366 00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:49,734 Chuck: right? they're just harder questions that you have to face personally. 367 00:23:49,734 --> 00:23:55,044 Chuck: If if you're if you're gonna see this as a habit, this is the way I've been treating 368 00:23:55,044 --> 00:23:59,468 Chuck: my spouse over the course of years, versus like, I just had a bad day. 369 00:23:59,468 --> 00:24:04,778 Chuck: but all but also, you know, if you're a church and we're looking at a a culture, you 370 00:24:04,778 --> 00:24:08,128 Chuck: know, of of bullying or harm or whatever it might be. 371 00:24:08,128 --> 00:24:12,806 Chuck: you know, you it's it's like there that's risky to to take a look at that. 372 00:24:12,806 --> 00:24:18,115 Chuck: It's it's risky to look at the story. I mean, I r I remember when I was working with 373 00:24:18,115 --> 00:24:22,224 Chuck: the church in the Chicago suburbs that I wasn't working for them. 374 00:24:22,224 --> 00:24:27,660 Chuck: I I was consulting with them and They had a long history of of moving to the outskirts 375 00:24:27,660 --> 00:24:32,653 Chuck: of town. I mean, they had started as kind of an urban church and they had moved 376 00:24:32,653 --> 00:24:38,089 Chuck: further and further out, and yet they were trying to be a church that valued diversity 377 00:24:38,089 --> 00:24:41,060 Chuck: and multicultural worship and things like that. 378 00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:46,243 Chuck: And you know, I remember the I I remember the looks in the room when I I was like, 379 00:24:46,243 --> 00:24:51,363 Chuck: Yeah, we I I think we actually I I don't I don't think the problem is your vision 380 00:24:51,363 --> 00:24:56,736 Chuck: statement here, you know. I actually think we need to take a look at your history and 381 00:24:56,736 --> 00:24:58,000 Chuck: the the reality that 382 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,000 Loren: Yeah. 383 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,301 Chuck: you You've made two significant moves to this very large campus now on a cornfield. 384 00:25:03,301 --> 00:25:06,358 Chuck: And yet, you know, you're like, why aren't we more diverse? 385 00:25:06,358 --> 00:25:09,933 Chuck: And how come God, you know? and and they're like, no, no, no, no, no. 386 00:25:09,933 --> 00:25:12,420 Chuck: We would that's not what we were paying you for. 387 00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:16,720 Chuck: We just wanted to kind of tweak our our language, our vision statements and mission 388 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,000 Chuck: statements, those kinds of things, right? So 389 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Loren: Mm. Mm-hmm. 390 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,807 Chuck: I just think it's hard. It's hard for me to look at patterns in my life, you know, and 391 00:25:25,807 --> 00:25:29,553 Chuck: say, goodness. So how did that impact my my wife, my two daughters? 392 00:25:29,553 --> 00:25:30,000 Chuck: Yeah. 393 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:35,967 Loren: Yeah. Well, this is where I think doing that work, which I'm sure you try to do with 394 00:25:35,967 --> 00:25:41,650 Loren: that church, this idea of a calm non nonjudgmental presence, I imagine, in those 395 00:25:41,650 --> 00:25:43,000 Loren: conversations. This 396 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,000 Chuck: Yeah. 397 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,465 Loren: is something I really appreciate in work working as a chaplain. 398 00:25:48,465 --> 00:25:54,488 Loren: It's j I mean, it's just amazing for one how coming in in that sort of non judgmental 399 00:25:54,488 --> 00:25:59,449 Loren: presence, calm presence can help at People access parts of themselves. 400 00:25:59,449 --> 00:26:02,000 Loren: Do you want to talk more about that? 401 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:09,159 Chuck: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean I I think any anyone who has observed 402 00:26:09,159 --> 00:26:16,489 Chuck: systems led by reactive leaders, anxious leaders, know know that like the system takes 403 00:26:16,489 --> 00:26:23,733 Chuck: on the anxiety of the leader, right? and by virtue of these wonderful mirror neurons, 404 00:26:23,733 --> 00:26:30,977 Chuck: you know, and and our resonance circuitry in the brain, you know, we we we pick up on 405 00:26:30,977 --> 00:26:35,153 Chuck: the the energy, let's just say, of of the leader. 406 00:26:35,153 --> 00:26:42,313 Chuck: when the leader is anxious. But by the same token, we we we pick up on the calm of a 407 00:26:42,313 --> 00:26:47,426 Chuck: non-anxious leader. We we sort of borrow their groundedness. 408 00:26:47,426 --> 00:26:54,415 Chuck: And it's been interesting to me over the years in in there have been a a number of 409 00:26:54,415 --> 00:26:58,676 Chuck: times where I I I've led in situations of anxiety. 410 00:26:58,676 --> 00:27:05,835 Chuck: There I'm thinking of suicides and I'm thinking of political events and I'm thinking 411 00:27:05,835 --> 00:27:12,909 Chuck: of really hard church situations and where I've I've had to step into a room and my 412 00:27:12,909 --> 00:27:17,000 Chuck: groundedness kind of allowed others to go, okay. 413 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,000 Loren: Yeah. Yeah. 414 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,759 Chuck: make it all better. Doesn't take away what just happened or what's happening 415 00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:28,330 Chuck: currently, but I can breathe. And so this is the work that we need to do. 416 00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:33,152 Chuck: This is the last chapter of the book, in fact, a chapter where I get into the 417 00:27:33,152 --> 00:27:36,095 Chuck: differentiating or it's really I build to

that. 418 00:27:36,095 --> 00:27:39,038 Chuck: So that work is being done throughout the book. 419 00:27:39,038 --> 00:27:44,235 Chuck: And as you know, at the end of each chapter and the practices, but it culminates in 420 00:27:44,235 --> 00:27:49,558 Chuck: the last chapter where we talk about differentiated leadership, this capacity to stay 421 00:27:49,558 --> 00:27:54,567 Chuck: deeply connected to who we are, where we are, what we believe, the ground of our 422 00:27:54,567 --> 00:27:59,639 Chuck: being, our own limits, and and also move toward others, build a bridge to others, 423 00:27:59,639 --> 00:28:04,586 Chuck: connect to others. And that's really a a a learned some people call it a skill. 424 00:28:04,586 --> 00:28:09,471 Chuck: I think it's more of an art. I borrow the language of Gregory the Great again. 425 00:28:09,471 --> 00:28:14,856 Chuck: Care of Souls is the art of arts because I think it's something that is more than more 426 00:28:14,856 --> 00:28:17,736 Chuck: than a skill that's developed in a short time. 427 00:28:17,736 --> 00:28:22,934 Chuck: It's more something that you're apprenticed into by people who demonstrate and live 428 00:28:22,934 --> 00:28:25,000 Chuck: and model non-anxious leadership. 429 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:31,406 Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Certainly I'm thinking of as we're recording us just last night, I worked 430 00:28:31,406 --> 00:28:37,736 Loren: and was awoken, you know, at just past midnight f t for a family whose loved one had 431 00:28:37,736 --> 00:28:43,991 Loren: experienced a heart attack. And it is amazing, like first of all for me, part of my 432 00:28:43,991 --> 00:28:50,397 Loren: challenge is getting like my brain w working right at being awoken from a from a deep 433 00:28:50,397 --> 00:28:51,000 Loren: sleep. 434 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,000 Chuck: Yeah yeah. 435 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,000 Loren: But but Once I'm able to get my brain functioning, it is 436 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:56,050 Chuck: Mm-hmm. 437 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,404 Loren: amazing like how just being a calm presence can just bring down a family and then they 438 00:29:02,404 --> 00:29:03,000 Loren: can be 439 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,000 Chuck: Mm. Mm. 440 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,870 Loren: like, Okay, this is the next step we need to do. 441 00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:08,000 Loren: And like you said, it doesn't 442 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:08,050 Chuck: Mm. 443 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,212 Loren: like make any th everything better. Like their loved one is still in critical care and 444 00:29:13,212 --> 00:29:14,000 Loren: there's still 445 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:14,050 Chuck: Yeah. 446 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,508 Loren: like challenges t to be faced ahead. but it it just seems so interesting because I I 447 00:29:19,508 --> 00:29:25,082 Loren: really appreciate this idea or what you shared about the the art of arts and it being 448 00:29:25,082 --> 00:29:30,721 Loren: a a practice 'cause it seems like right now,

like we're in a cultural context where it 449 00:29:30,721 --> 00:29:34,000 Loren: just seems like the move is escalation constantly. 450 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:40,881 Chuck: Hm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I think we we're living in a time where there is this c sort 451 00:29:40,881 --> 00:29:47,843 Chuck: of collective trauma and physiologically we're living in this collective state of what 452 00:29:47,843 --> 00:29:51,000 Chuck: I call sympathetic storm. This state of 453 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:51,050 Loren: Mm-hmm. 454 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,002 Chuck: reactivity, this state of anxiety, this state of of fight or flight. 455 00:29:56,002 --> 00:30:02,182 Chuck: and we we see it in the way we engage. We see it in the polarization in our culture. 456 00:30:02,182 --> 00:30:08,361 Chuck: one of the things we know about being locked in that sympathetic state, that more at 457 00:30:08,361 --> 00:30:14,687 Chuck: that state that as as many of your listeners probably know is sort of energized by our 458 00:30:14,687 --> 00:30:20,572 Chuck: amygdala is is that You don't have a whole lot of capacity for curiosity in that 459 00:30:20,572 --> 00:30:23,000 Chuck: state. You don't have a whole lot 460 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:23,050 Loren: Yeah. 461 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,545 Chuck: of capacity for calm in that state. it's really hard to take a deep inhale and exhale 462 00:30:28,545 --> 00:30:32,720 Chuck: and speak from the ground of your being in that state, you know? 463 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,070 Chuck: And so, and and you've got to do a bit of work to get back to the what I call this 464 00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:41,397 Chuck: home state, this grounded and differentiated state. 465 00:30:41,397 --> 00:30:45,507 Chuck: And so I think w what I noticed for me years ago in leadership. 466 00:30:45,507 --> 00:30:48,377 Chuck: I was a therapist and a pastor at this time. 467 00:30:48,377 --> 00:30:53,922 Chuck: I I needed to be hospitalized to be awakened to my own chronic sympathetic storm, the 468 00:30:53,922 --> 00:30:58,293 Chuck: reality that I was living in a hurricane and I didn't even know it. 469 00:30:58,293 --> 00:31:03,447 Chuck: That been if you would have asked me I would have said I I'm not super anxious. 470 00:31:03,447 --> 00:31:09,057 Chuck: I mean, I got things I'm anxious about in my life, but underneath there's a big storm. 471 00:31:09,057 --> 00:31:13,885 Chuck: And so yeah, I think what that's part of what we need to pay attention to. 472 00:31:13,885 --> 00:31:19,495 Chuck: And it like when I do this work, you probably know I do these five-day intensives with 473 00:31:19,495 --> 00:31:22,692 Chuck: a a lot of leaders. Five days, three hours a day. 474 00:31:22,692 --> 00:31:28,302 Chuck: I've got a team that does them. And you know, that's what we're paying attention to is 475 00:31:28,302 --> 00:31:33,912 Chuck: you may not sense that there's a lot of anxiety, but beneath the water line, there may 476 00:31:33,912 --> 00:31:36,000 Chuck: be a hurricane down there. Yeah. 477 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:42,000 Loren: Yeah, yeah. You talked about those different the fold and the flight. 478 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,000 Chuck: Yeah. 479 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,526 Loren: certainly the the fight or flight is the most common way we think about it. 480 00:31:46,526 --> 00:31:50,427 Loren: I I wanna ask you here, like hopefully this doesn't get too personal for for us and 481 00:31:50,427 --> 00:31:53,624 Loren: for our listeners, but like I'll try to ask this somewhat generally. 482 00:31:53,624 --> 00:31:54,000 Loren: Like 483 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,000 Chuck: Yeah. 484 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,066 Loren: I've recognized like my my pattern is fold and and you're welcome to kind of share 485 00:31:59,066 --> 00:32:01,000 Loren: those the the different Fs if you want. 486 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000 Chuck: Mm-hmm. 487 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:09,400 Loren: But Like f how can I say this in a way that's not too specific, I guess. 488 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,000 Loren: Like 489 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,000 Chuck: Uh-huh. 490 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:18,277 Loren: certain certain cultural moments have made it for me especially more difficult to feel 491 00:32:18,277 --> 00:32:22,000 Loren: like I can like be my true self rather than to fold 492 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Chuck: Yeah. 493 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,000 Loren: or the language I use is to disappear. And i in 494 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:26,050 Chuck: Yeah. 495 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,000 Loren: in some context it's like I'm encouraged to disappear when it's 496 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:30,050 Chuck: Yeah. 497 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,100 Loren: like for me, healthy functioning is actually to not disappear. 498 00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:34,000 Loren: And certainly like 499 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,000 Chuck: Yes. Yeah. 500 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,333 Loren: we all people encounter those different contexts where like and this sort of gets back 501 00:32:41,333 --> 00:32:44,000 Loren: to the question I started at the beginning, 502 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:44,050 Chuck: Mm. 503 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,788 Loren: where the healthy move for us is to do the opposite of what the cultural context is 504 00:32:48,788 --> 00:32:50,000 Loren: encouraging us to do. 505 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,875 Chuck: Mm. Yeah, yeah. so Just to take it a step back for a moment, you know, you're getting 506 00:32:56,875 --> 00:33:01,000 Chuck: into what I call the six Fs. I talked about this in 507 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:01,050 Loren: Yeah. 508 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,626 Chuck: Healing Whats with Dan and I I talk about it here fight, flight, fawn, find. 509 00:33:05,626 --> 00:33:10,861 Chuck: Those are the Fs of the sympathetic nervous system when we're more in that storm mode, 510 00:33:10,861 --> 00:33:15,000 Chuck: when things are churning, and then freeze and fold, which is more of 511 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Loren:

Yeah. 512 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,767 Chuck: it's not quite this simple, but more more our what we call our parasympathetic nervous 513 00:33:22,767 --> 00:33:28,400 Chuck: system or dorsal system, and and it's where we maybe maybe start to feel overwhelmed 514 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,497 Chuck: and we pull back, pull away for me, pull the covers over my head and want to 515 00:33:33,497 --> 00:33:38,996 Chuck: disappear, which I I can relate to Loren. So yeah, well I I think you know I It it 516 00:33:38,996 --> 00:33:42,349 Chuck: feels like when we discover kind of where we live. 517 00:33:42,349 --> 00:33:45,903 Chuck: I was talking to someone who lives in a lot of fight. 518 00:33:45,903 --> 00:33:49,055 Chuck: We think that the answer is the exact opposite. 519 00:33:49,055 --> 00:33:51,000 Chuck: You know, I just need to stop 520 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,000 Loren: Mm-hmm. 521 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,448 Chuck: doing that. Or if we're living in more fold, I just need to get more engaged. 522 00:33:55,448 --> 00:33:59,209 Chuck: When the invitation is to recognize how we got here in the first place, like why our 523 00:33:59,209 --> 00:34:01,000 Chuck: nervous systems are living in this place 524 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,000 Loren: Hmm. Mm-hmm. 525 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,121 Chuck: of of coping, this place of survival, whether it's more sympathetically oriented and 526 00:34:10,121 --> 00:34:16,389 Chuck: mobilized or whether it's more parasympathetically oriented and and feels a little bit 527 00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:21,417 Chuck: more like shutdown. I I want to get clear on like how did I get here? 528 00:34:21,417 --> 00:34:22,000 Chuck: but then 529 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:22,050 Loren: Yeah. 530 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:28,069 Chuck: how do I get back to this place that I call home, this place of calm and groundedness. 531 00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:33,784 Chuck: So it's not the opposite. It's more how do I get to a place of groundedness, to a 532 00:34:33,784 --> 00:34:39,712 Chuck: place of calm, and then from that place decide what what what might it look like for 533 00:34:39,712 --> 00:34:45,710 Chuck: if I live in more of a fold orientation to enter in more courageously or if I live in 534 00:34:45,710 --> 00:34:51,214 Chuck: a fight orientation more often than not to r relax that and you know yet still 535 00:34:51,214 --> 00:34:57,000 Chuck: participate. that's more the dynamic rather than like going to the opposite of it. 536 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:02,000 Loren: Yeah, that's really helpful. I don't know if you follow the work of Mike Foster. 537 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,000 Chuck: that name doesn't ring a bell, no. 538 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:10,198 Loren: But he has this he has I'm trying to remember what his he calls them scrambles and he 539 00:35:10,198 --> 00:35:15,594 Loren: he talks about language of his language he uses is like a primal question. 540 00:35:15,594 --> 00:35:21,135 Loren: so he always thinks of like what's the what's the question you're really at? 541 00:35:21,135 --> 00:35:25,000 Loren: Like you're s he calls it the scramble, which is sort 542 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:25,050 Chuck: Okay. 543 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,467 Loren: of similar and like what's the the the underlying question of that scramble you're 544 00:35:30,467 --> 00:35:31,000 Loren: asking? 545 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:31,050 Chuck: Hmm. Yeah. 546 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,000 Loren: so I think it's it's fist with what you're saying, so that's that's helpful. 547 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,333 Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. And and it I mean that ought to lead us to some curiosity, but also to 548 00:35:38,333 --> 00:35:40,000 Chuck: some self compassion. Like I think people 549 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,000 Loren: Yeah. Yes. 550 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,781 Chuck: live in perpetual fight, you know, are often exhausted of the fight, you know, and 551 00:35:47,781 --> 00:35:53,703 Chuck: they they don't want to back out of, you know, their work of maybe pursuing works of 552 00:35:53,703 --> 00:35:59,484 Chuck: justice in the world, but they certainly wanna do that from a more grounded place. 553 00:35:59,484 --> 00:36:05,054 Chuck: when I was living in a bit more fold, I was calling it rest and it wasn't rest. 554 00:36:05,054 --> 00:36:11,046 Chuck: It was it was disappearance, you know. And so I had to recognize, I'm my body's in an 555 00:36:11,046 --> 00:36:16,545 Chuck: overwhelmed state. I am exhausted, I've been pushing too hard, and I'm I'm not 556 00:36:16,545 --> 00:36:20,000 Chuck: actually resting, I'm dissociating. and my family 557 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,000 Loren: Hmm. 558 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,436 Chuck: sees it experiences. They're like, Dad, where are you? 559 00:36:23,436 --> 00:36:26,504 Chuck: I mean they they used to say, Dad, you're here, but you're not here. 560 00:36:26,504 --> 00:36:27,000 Chuck: And I think 561 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,000 Loren: Yeah. 562 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,000 Chuck: probably a many of us have had experiences like that. 563 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,026 Loren: Yeah. let's take one let me give you one more question before we move on to closing 564 00:36:35,026 --> 00:36:39,052 Loren: questions. There's this line in your book and I can't really remember what context, 565 00:36:39,052 --> 00:36:41,769 Loren: but it just has stuck with me. What we behold we become. 566 00:36:41,769 --> 00:36:44,000 Loren: You you spend so much time in the book talking 567 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,000 Chuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 568 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,822 Loren: about formation and practice, and I I feel like nothing encapsulates that as well as 569 00:36:52,822 --> 00:36:54,000 Loren: those five words. 570 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,859 Chuck: Yeah. Well this is this is a chapter on attention. 571 00:36:57,859 --> 00:37:04,343 Chuck: And and it's a paradoxical chapter in the sense that we live in an attention-seeking 572 00:37:04,343 --> 00:37:10,517

Chuck: culture, right? Where it's like see me, see me, see me with my Facebook post, my 573 00:37:10,517 --> 00:37:16,924 Chuck: Instagram post, my TikTok, and my you know, YouTube channel, my all the things, you 574 00:37:16,924 --> 00:37:23,253 Chuck: know, like me, see me, approve of me. and yet, paradoxically, we are created to be 575 00:37:23,253 --> 00:37:29,891 Chuck: seen and known by God, right? Like I and that's that's virtuous attention-seeking in a 576 00:37:29,891 --> 00:37:33,673 Chuck: sense, to be seen and Known at the deepest level. 577 00:37:33,673 --> 00:37:40,079 Chuck: And so what we behold, we become takes on a bit of a different shape when you think 578 00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:46,717 Chuck: about it that way. If our attention is given to scrolling, to distraction, to approval 579 00:37:46,717 --> 00:37:53,200 Chuck: seeking. I think of my work with narcissism to the of and the mere hungry leader who 580 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:59,606 Chuck: uses his audience for approval, right? That will shape us in a particular way, that 581 00:37:59,606 --> 00:38:05,858 Chuck: shapes character. And so we've got to be mindful of of how that's shaping us over 582 00:38:05,858 --> 00:38:12,033 Chuck: time. but but but the the paradox is that if we find our way to this place of of 583 00:38:12,033 --> 00:38:18,285 Chuck: surrender where we open ourselves in receptivity to the the the attention of God. 584 00:38:18,285 --> 00:38:23,225 Chuck: This gets back to my last book and that question, where are you? 585 00:38:23,225 --> 00:38:25,000 Chuck: You know, the God who's 586 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,000 Loren: Mm-hmm. 587 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,000 Chuck: walking in the garden in the cool of the day looking for you, looking for us. 588 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,000 Loren: Mm-hmm. 589 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,898 Chuck: And we recognize that we're already seen and known. 590 00:38:33,898 --> 00:38:39,401 Chuck: that as Augustine said, God is more near to us than we are to ourselves. 591 00:38:39,401 --> 00:38:42,000 Chuck: We can rest, you know, it we don't 592 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,000 Loren: Yeah. 593 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,781 Chuck: have to, as Augustine said, chase after it anymore, you know, and and and so I guess 594 00:38:48,781 --> 00:38:54,699 Chuck: the the the point behind what we behold we become is that we're shaped by what we give 595 00:38:54,699 --> 00:39:00,480 Chuck: our attention to. And I for me in on retreats, I'll invite people to ask themselves, 596 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:06,398 Chuck: to interrogate their their practices, their, you know, what they do throughout the day 597 00:39:06,398 --> 00:39:09,908 Chuck: to see where where are they giving their attention. 598 00:39:09,908 --> 00:39:15,000 Chuck: And it's very revelatory when people come back and share with one another. 599 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,533 Loren: Yeah. Yeah. I mean s screen time, right? Screen time has to be like one of the most 600 00:39:20,533 --> 00:39:26,267 Loren: obvious examples of that and something that I I find harrowing when I think about like 601 00:39:26,267 --> 00:39:31,733 Loren: how much time I'm staring at my phone. I I'm thinking certainly too about what you 602 00:39:31,733 --> 00:39:34,867 Loren: said. Certainly you've interact with him a lot. 603 00:39:34,867 --> 00:39:40,333 Loren: Steve Cuss and his idea of being human sized, like when we know we're seen, right? 604 00:39:40,333 --> 00:39:44,000 Loren: Like we don't feel like we need to make ourselves seen. 605 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:51,000 Chuck: Mm. I think that's exactly it. I think something rests within when you know that you 606 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:58,167 Chuck: are seen and known and and you know I I There's a line in there that goes back to some 607 00:39:58,167 --> 00:40:05,167 Chuck: work that I did with a guy years ago where it was the line was something like, If if 608 00:40:05,167 --> 00:40:09,000 Chuck: if I'm not shining, I will disappear. And that 609 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,000 Loren: Hm. 610 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,518 Chuck: struck me as really big. Like this was someone who was pastoring, and I had asked him 611 00:40:14,518 --> 00:40:19,090 Chuck: to step out of that role and step away from like just public engagement because he was 612 00:40:19,090 --> 00:40:23,661 Chuck: so addicted to it. And yet within a few months he had started a podcast, you know, and 613 00:40:23,661 --> 00:40:26,000 Chuck: I was like, What's going on, buddy? And that 614 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,000 Loren: Yeah. Yeah. 615 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,548 Chuck: was it. If I if I'm not shining, I'll disappear. 616 00:40:29,548 --> 00:40:31,000 Chuck: If I'm not showing up, who am I? And I think, 617 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,000 Loren: Yeah. Yeah. 618 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,928 Chuck: you know, if we're honest with ourselves, there's something true true about that, you 619 00:40:38,928 --> 00:40:43,739 Chuck: know, like I I I have to ask myself continually because I'm in this role where I'm, 620 00:40:43,739 --> 00:40:48,725 Chuck: you know, as a writer, you are you're required to do marketing for yourself, you know, 621 00:40:48,725 --> 00:40:52,493 Chuck: you're required to get the word out to go on podcasts with Loren. 622 00:40:52,493 --> 00:40:54,000 Chuck: What's that? You're in it? 623 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:59,677 Loren: Yeah. I'm literally in that right now. I'm in the I'm I have a book out as we're 624 00:40:59,677 --> 00:41:04,432 Loren: recording this so ten days ago and I'm in that self promotion game. 625 00:41:04,432 --> 00:41:05,000 Loren: Yeah. 626 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,444 Chuck: I mean, you know what it's like, right? And so, will anyone care? 627 00:41:09,444 --> 00:41:12,385 Chuck: Will anyone see me? Will it will it matter? 628 00:41:12,385 --> 00:41:13,000 Chuck: You know? 629 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,000 Loren: Yeah. 630 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,000 Chuck: And so each

of us is invited to do our own work around that. 631 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,528 Loren: Well, some closing questions here. we asked this question and I I suppose I'll ask 632 00:41:24,528 --> 00:41:30,326 Loren: this like if you're a Pope for the day, so thinking about you're in charge of pastors, 633 00:41:30,326 --> 00:41:34,775 Loren: like I'm gonna ask this specifically. You're in charge of pastors. 634 00:41:34,775 --> 00:41:39,225 Loren: What are you telling those what do you want those pastors to know? 635 00:41:39,225 --> 00:41:43,000 Loren: What are you telling them? That sort of thing for a day. 636 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,000 Chuck: If I'm in charge of pastors for a day, 637 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,000 Loren: Yeah. 638 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,867 Chuck: we might just sit in silence the whole day. 639 00:41:49,867 --> 00:41:55,600 Chuck: I might not do much talking at all. I you know, I'm inviting them to get curious about 640 00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,133 Chuck: their own formation, their own patterns, the story, the stories that they're living 641 00:42:01,133 --> 00:42:06,867 Chuck: in. And what's happening beneath the surface, in what I call the autonomic engine, but 642 00:42:06,867 --> 00:42:10,467 Chuck: under the hood, so to speak, at a physiological level. 643 00:42:10,467 --> 00:42:16,000 Chuck: if they're living in as many pastors are, chronic storm, or if if as many of us do, 644 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,467 Chuck: they they're being pulled into the fog of overwhelm. 645 00:42:19,467 --> 00:42:25,000 Chuck: when I have opportunities, and I was just in Queens, New York last weekend with a a 646 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,733 Chuck: bunch of pastors, but I have opportunities to to speak on these things. 647 00:42:29,733 --> 00:42:35,067 Chuck: Yeah, it's inevitable that there are going to be really important conversations. 648 00:42:35,067 --> 00:42:40,667 Chuck: And then I'll have conversations offline with them who will come to me and say, hey, 649 00:42:40,667 --> 00:42:43,000 Chuck: that's exactly where I am. And I am 650 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,000 Loren: Hmm. Wow. 651 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,724 Chuck: I'm not sure what to do because it feels like if I step out of my role, fill in the 652 00:42:50,724 --> 00:42:53,000 Chuck: blank, something will fall apart. 653 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,000 Loren: Right. 654 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,934 Chuck: and It it feels kind of threatening at some existential level, some physiological 655 00:42:58,934 --> 00:43:03,807 Chuck: level, like y you know, I I I can't afford to step away and do a week intensive. 656 00:43:03,807 --> 00:43:06,000 Chuck: I can't afford to take a sabbatical. 657 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:11,000 Loren: Yeah. Who am I if I'm not actively pastoring? 658 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,887 Chuck: Exactly, right? And so you're getting at like core, core questions. 659 00:43:14,887 --> 00:43:19,818 Chuck: And so maybe those that gets it w that Mike Foster that

you're talking about, some of 660 00:43:19,818 --> 00:43:24,807 Chuck: those primal questions with that scramble. But yeah, those core questions that I think 661 00:43:24,807 --> 00:43:29,738 Chuck: we all have to wrestle with. I mean, I I'm fifty-six now, but I I think I've had like 662 00:43:29,738 --> 00:43:32,000 Chuck: several midlife crises at this point to 663 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,000 Loren: Ha ha ha. 664 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,636 Chuck: to where it I I've I've wondered about my vocation. 665 00:43:37,636 --> 00:43:40,000 Chuck: I've wondered if I matter, 666 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:40,050 Loren: Mm-hmm. 667 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,887 Chuck: I wondered should I call it quits? I mean you it gets it can get really dark in those 668 00:43:45,887 --> 00:43:51,844 Chuck: places, right? And so I think I just hold space for safe space for those pastors to be 669 00:43:51,844 --> 00:43:57,247 Chuck: honest with themselves and one another and say, hey, you're not alone in this. 670 00:43:57,247 --> 00:44:02,996 Chuck: There are lots of us who actually wrestle with these questions who who wonder these 671 00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:08,883 Chuck: things. And what if what if we begin to have these conversations a little bit more so 672 00:44:08,883 --> 00:44:12,000 Chuck: that We weren't so lonely and maybe we didn't 673 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,000 Loren: Yeah. 674 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:18,478 Chuck: live with this kind of incessant drive, this exhausting drive that is burning us all 675 00:44:18,478 --> 00:44:19,000 Chuck: out. 676 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,497 Loren: Yeah, well first of all, like I am not at all thrilled to hear that you say I'm like I 677 00:44:23,497 --> 00:44:27,000 Loren: thought my one I could be one and done with the midlife crisis, but 678 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,678 Chuck: One one midlife crisis near yeah, yeah, right. 679 00:44:31,678 --> 00:44:33,000 Chuck: Yeah. I wish. 680 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,414 Loren: Whenever I talked to you, I remember I think the first time I talked to you, you you 681 00:44:35,414 --> 00:44:37,080 Loren: named Teresa Vavila as your theologian who you wanna meet. 682 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:38,000 Loren: Is that still it or does another 683 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,000 Chuck: Yep. Yeah. yeah. 684 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,000 Loren: come to mind? 685 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,877 Chuck: yeah. I mean I there are others. I I I yeah, there are plenty of others. 686 00:44:47,877 --> 00:44:50,731 Chuck: But Saint Teresa, I've done a lot of work around her. 687 00:44:50,731 --> 00:44:53,315 Chuck: I created a little film about her on my website. 688 00:44:53,315 --> 00:44:57,569 Chuck: I think she's extraordinary. I call her my favorite sixteenth century reformer. 689 00:44:57,569 --> 00:44:58,000 Chuck: Yeah. 690 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:05,000 Loren: Hm. what do you think history will remember from our current time and place? 691 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,270 Chuck: You know, I I I think

if it goes on another five hundred years, they'll look back and 692 00:45:10,270 --> 00:45:15,477 Chuck: they'll they'll say, you know, every five hundred years, as Phil Phyllis Tickle said 693 00:45:15,477 --> 00:45:20,747 Chuck: in in her book, The Great Emergence, there are these massive reckonings, and that was 694 00:45:20,747 --> 00:45:26,078 Chuck: yet another reckoning within the church where things had to where it had to go through 695 00:45:26,078 --> 00:45:31,348 Chuck: its dark night, where it had to where people were talking about deconstruction, where 696 00:45:31,348 --> 00:45:36,679 Chuck: there were prophets stepping up to say hard things, where where Christianity was being 697 00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:41,763 Chuck: conflated with empire and where you know pol politics and you know and and religio 698 00:45:41,763 --> 00:45:46,908 Chuck: their major conversations of politics and religion that that you know well it's not 699 00:45:46,908 --> 00:45:51,000 Chuck: the first time around right because we've seen this before they'll 700 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,000 Loren: Right, right. 701 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:57,000 Chuck: say they did it again they had the benefit of hindsight and history 702 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:57,050 Loren: Hmm. 703 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:03,337 Chuck: and they they did it again but this is what rose out of the ashes you know this is the 704 00:46:03,337 --> 00:46:09,674 Chuck: new thing that you know when i AI won and the machines took over this is what rose out 705 00:46:09,674 --> 00:46:11,000 Chuck: of the ashes right 706 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,000 Loren: boy. boy. 707 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,184 Chuck: Yeah, I just I just went there because that's what we're talking about in the news 708 00:46:17,184 --> 00:46:18,000 Chuck: these days, right? So 709 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,000 Loren: Yeah. Well, what do you hope for the future of Christianity? 710 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,747 Chuck: Hm. I I you know I think this it goes back to the very beginning. 711 00:46:27,747 --> 00:46:34,820 Chuck: finding our way to this simpler path of of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. 712 00:46:34,820 --> 00:46:41,982 Chuck: that you know we'd we'd be caught by the beauty of Philippians 2 again, Jesus who 713 00:46:41,982 --> 00:46:49,497 Chuck: being a very nature God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped or 714 00:46:49,497 --> 00:46:51,000 Chuck: exploited, right? 715 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:56,000 Loren: Yeah. Yeah. 716 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,968 Chuck: And that that would radically change not just the way we think, but our our character, 717 00:47:01,968 --> 00:47:07,590 Chuck: the way we show up as pastors and leaders, it would lead to humility, self-giving 718 00:47:07,590 --> 00:47:13,558 Chuck: love, suffering servanthood, you know. it would change our politics, our ecclesiology. 719 00:47:13,558 --> 00:47:18,000 Chuck: That's that's what I would hope for. That's just a little thing. 720 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,172 Loren: Yeah. Well the book is Who You're Becoming, the slow and courageous work of 721 00:47:23,172 --> 00:47:26,207 Loren: cultivating character in a narcissistic age. 722 00:47:26,207 --> 00:47:30,966 Loren: Obviously this book is available, I imagine, wherever books are sold. 723 00:47:30,966 --> 00:47:36,000 Loren: How can folks connect with you and any other resources you want to share? 724 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,875 Chuck: Yeah, I mean I'm on Substack at Sitwith Chuck. 725 00:47:38,875 --> 00:47:41,750 Chuck: I'm on I I've got a website, ChuckDeGroat.net. 726 00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:47,062 Chuck: I I have something called the Soul Care Collaborative where you know, I've got a team 727 00:47:47,062 --> 00:47:52,250 Chuck: of practitioners that do the work that I do and I'm on all the channel social media 728 00:47:52,250 --> 00:47:56,000 Chuck: channels except for TikTok. I don't think I'll ever do that. 729 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,000 Chuck: So yeah. I've got a YouTube page 730 00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,000 Loren: Fair enough. 731 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:04,508 Chuck: now. I finally started doing YouTube videos because someone convinced me I'm getting 732 00:48:04,508 --> 00:48:07,000 Chuck: old enough to start doing that now. So 733 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,000 Loren: Well, I really appreciate your time and conversation. 734 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:09,050 Chuck: Yeah. 735 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,000 Loren: We always leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you. 736 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,000 Chuck: And also with you, Loren