ТРАНСКРИПЦИЯ 🔗
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Welcome to Strong, not Starving.
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My name is Marcus Kane, and if you want to beat binge eating, create a rewarding dynamic with food, exercise and body image, you're in the right place.
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The information in this podcast, as always, is not intended as a substitute for medical advice.
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Today, I've got an awesome chat for you with Stephanie Michelle from the Life After Diets podcast, and we're talking about how understanding our nervous system and understanding how different feelings present themselves in the body can help us navigate struggles not just with binge eating, but with things like being overworked, when to choose to push harder and when to give ourselves a rest, and how to navigate situations where we might feel like we're trying to intellectually understand what's going on or to constantly figure stuff out without really having a connection to our intuition.
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So if you've ever struggled with things like trying to eat more intuitively, emotional regulation or feeling like episodes of burnout just kind of creep up on you out of nowhere, this conversation is 100% for you and make sure you stick around at the end to hear what I've got in store for you for this November and December, to make sure that your holiday season surrounding food is the best one you've ever had.
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So, without any further delay, let's get into it.
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Yeah, it sounds like what I just asked you before I hit record just now was particularly relevant and that is how you're doing.
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So can you share with everyone, like what you just told me?
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Yeah, it was like a long-winded answer.
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Well, I first I'm doing very well today.
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This week has been fine.
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But what I was saying was that if you caught me last week at this time I might have had a different response, because I was coming off of a trip to Ireland.
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I went there for a workshop that I hosted for my podcast and the jet lag coming home plus I think everyone's getting sick right now.
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So it's so I think I caught you know whatever's running around internationally and I came home and I was just feeling physically unwell.
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I was tired, definitely, and I was kind of coming down with this cold or whatever that was, and I felt low mentally because my physical health recently acknowledged I recently think you know, kind of put these things together that my physical health really takes a toll on my mental health.
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So I have learned that when I go away, even just the transition of returning from a trip and just the catching up energy-wise on that, that I need to build in some mental health days to when I get back, because I know that I'm gonna feel kind of almost like like this, like low level sort of depression feeling which usually lasts for a couple, a couple of days, sometimes more.
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That's such an interesting one.
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I noticed that myself a few years ago as well, just that when my energy levels were low, my thought processes would follow, and we were gonna have a chat today about how the state of our nervous system can affect our thoughts, because I know there's so much, especially in the coaching and personal development space, so much stuff out there that's like, you know, your thoughts affect your feelings and you feel what you think, and all this kind of stuff.
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But it often kind of works the other way around as well.
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Yeah, yeah, and I think there's reasons for that that have to do.
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Well, I don't know, I can't even claim to know exactly the mech, exactly why the mechanism works the way it does, but I have just noticed that when my system is in a more sympathetic state, so more of the fight-or-flight or a more of a, what I'm learning is dorsal vagal, which is this freeze state that I will have accompanying thoughts that I don't feel, like I choose, I don't think, and nothing about me has changed right like it's, not about like I might.
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I'm the same person one week to the next, but, depending on the state of my system, the thoughts that come up will just automatically sort of populate there.
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And I kind of have learned and what I've, what I practice now, and I think this is so important because I used to really take that very seriously and assume that like, oh my gosh, I must be heading back to a depression or I must really think that I'm the worst you know.
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And now I'm kind of like oh no, that's a reflection of the state of my system at the moment and I can just watch that.
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It feels like mindfulness, which I had learned about but never fully integrated, and I think it's like all right, that's just a product of something I can.
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Just, I can kind of wait that out, which is what.
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I do.
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I just like all right, I understand it now, which is so important to me to understand why, and then to say, okay, then that makes sense to me, I will.
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I will sort of just deal with this until until things change, which they do now generally now they do.
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When you say dorsal vagal, are we talking polyvagal theory?
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yes so for anyone who's not familiar with polyvagal theory, it's essentially, in a very broad sense, what we're talking about here the fact that story follows state, in the sense that
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the story and the thoughts that appear in our mind follow the way our body feels through the door, rather than actually looking at it as this situation where thoughts constantly impact how we feel, and obviously 100% it can work both ways.
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So I'm not encouraging anyone to go like hard line one way or the other, but it can be a really helpful practice to notice our thoughts and kind of tune into how we're feeling and think.
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Okay, you know, in this particular state, with how I'm feeling right now, has this mood or has how I'm feeling, kicked open the door for some thoughts that aren't really a reflection of how I feel and the way that I think when I'm, you know, feeling like myself?
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yes, exactly, and I think about it because it makes sense when you put it that way and when you think about it through that lens, because it reflects the state of energy in your body, right.
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So polyvagal theory is about.
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I think it's quite a.
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You know it makes a lot of sense when it comes to survival and coping and the way that the your body will shift energy states to get through.
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So, for example, in in a freeze state, which I called that you know that it's better known as a freeze state, but it's called dorsal vagal this is when the body feels flooded with.
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It's just it.
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The overwhelm has sustained itself for too long and I don't think I don't want to say that I went to a into that quite of a state from the travel.
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But let's just say, for sake of this explaining it, that you know there's a lot of stress on the system traveling low, sleep, not feeling well, having a virus, even the excitability of the weekend I was at, you know there's lots of go-go-go there was, I mean, there's positive, but it was lots, taking up a lot of energy, and so at some point the body may say we're dealing with a lot, this is taking a lot out of us.
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It's taking a little too much out of us.
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I need to slow down.
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And if you're not gonna do it, I'm gonna do it.
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And this is where you know, rest in the conversation around that comes in.
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And I pushed through a lot of times, not not because I I have a moral value to not to to resting or not resting, but because practically sometimes that I just don't have the space.
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And so my body will say, okay, well, I've been playing your game for a while and I I need to take this for myself and it will sort of enter this a bit of a shut down, a freeze, more of an inertia, and it does that to protect you, it does that to to take, to recollect the energy that is being put out and to say I need
to, I need to, I need to restore.
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So we're gonna kind of go into this lower state.
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This might show up as low motivation to do things, inertia, like lethargy.
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We blame ourselves for this, we think that's a character flaw, but it's in fact your body saying I just need a break.
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And the thoughts that may come up, I think probably are twofold, probably more than that.
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But number one, they can be judgments of that right, like so, when you notice yourself slowing down, we're not thinking, oh, the body must be protecting me, you know, I just must need a rest.
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You're thinking why can't I move off the couch?
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Like what's wrong with me?
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I just went on travel like what's the big deal or whatever it is.
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And so those thoughts might populate because of the judgment.
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But also I think the body is really designed to gear itself towards lower, like lower energy things which might just come through as I can't get up, I don't want to move, I don't feel.
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Well, you know, like this is what is actually happening inside of the body, and so the thoughts sort of correspond and of course they intersect with our judgment.
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Yeah, the judgment.
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There can be such a difficult piece, especially if we're expending a lot of energy dealing with things that might not be so obvious on the outside, like if we're trying to self regulate through a lot of triggers, whether it be in the presence of you know, some PTSD or C PTSD or like trauma type things that are being triggered that we're trying to regulate, or difficult situations.
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We can be expending a lot of energy and trying to self regulate, while on the outside it might not look like we're doing a whole lot.
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Then that can create the situation where we enter more of a free state, like our body starts to slow down.
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Our body starts to say hey, dude, what the hell?
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You didn't listen when I asked politely to slow down, so now I'm going to send a more insistent signal to slow down.
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That comes with more of a visceral full body response and then that can lead to these thoughts where it's like God, why can't I?
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Why can't I just do more, like I haven't done anything whatever, and then that judgment feeds into the whole process and it can be a real clusterfuck.
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To say the least, but I like how you put it.
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Yeah, it does.
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It will ask politely and and it usually, I just think, are in the world we live
in.
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We're not.
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We're not accustomed to listening.
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Honestly, we're not.
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I don't think we're accustomed to hearing.
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I know that I spent I've been trying to work on this for a couple of years and in the beginning it was just about tracking, like how my body was actually suggesting to me that it wanted to slow down and I had no idea.
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I was completely out of touch with the signals because I had just gotten in a pattern of minimizing them and and assuming it was again, I think I assumed it was character right like it, like that.
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this was somehow a reflection of my laziness or I don't know my, my, whatever it was.
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And it took me a long time and I spent a lot of time and I had a coach who helped me just simply track the states of my system as they showed up and just to notice what they were.
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And that was a job and I think that was the hardest part for me of of learning this stuff, of really paying attention to what that felt like and what those signals those polite signals were, because I could understand the bigger ones, but it's the subtleties that that getcha.
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Yeah, and the whole thing of tracking.
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It can be like I have this conversation with people around journaling quite a lot like, let's be clear, I'm a terrible journal.
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I don't like, I don't.
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I don't journal regularly, but I do sometimes journal and make a few notes on things and make some observations in the event that the shit might be hitting the fan or something's not going in the way that I want it to.
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Purely as a journaling exercise, through that non judgmental observation, like let's see if we can see what's going on here, identify any patterns, and when it comes to journaling and observing these things, the moment we start writing stuff down or observing, it can get really easy to do that from a perspective of almost like that old diet mentality coming back like I'm tracking my macros or I'm tracking.
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I'm tracking something with the intention of creating some kind of massive change, rather than just tracking something from the perspective of okay, my goal here is to observe what's happening a little more deeply and then to maybe look at the way I'm actually feeling in my body as these things are happening, rather than going through any given process in a sense of like autopilot and going ah, why isn't things, why aren't things working out or why am I feeling this way or why am I thinking this way?
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That distinction with with journaling and making it more non judgmental and more observational, it can be so important.
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Yeah, I always picture like a little scientist.
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I literally have this image of like this, you know, in a white lab coat with a pen and paper and glasses, like just what?
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Writing just like.
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Oh yeah, I see, you know, just sort of like.
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I don't know why the image, maybe it's just so light, it's a bit humorous.
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So it helps me be not more non judgmental and to me I don't know if it's a value, it maybe it's a value thing, but I really value like understanding and having just explanations.
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so to me that's what that goal is.
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It's like just just to understand where you're coming from, not to fix it even necessarily yet, or, you know, not have influence on it, but just to see it and I'm like, oh, that's why, that's why this is happening to me, to me this is so such a relief, like, oh yeah, that makes total sense.
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All right, I can get behind that then.
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And I guess you were describing the image of the little scientist and connecting that with this like non judgmental awareness and observation, like what so many, what so many of us are usually doing is observing with judgment, a lot of self criticism, and I got the image of that little scientist whenever they saw a piece of data just going ah and like flipping their table.
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Yeah, they need some therapy.
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Yeah, no, no.
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This scientist is really like down to earth and just just in it for the.
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They're just in it for the data.
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That's something that I heard I think it was Lane Norton talk about when it came to and obviously because of Lane, he's talking about tracking macros and so many people who don't have maybe any extensive experience with disordered eating or eating disorders might hear people like Lane saying you know, for just a week, just track your macros and just treat it like data.
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Treat it like data Like, don't connect any emotion to it, Just treat it like data.
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So it can be difficult sometimes implementing and I'm not advising tracking macros here at all.
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I'm just saying like it's easier with some things to bring non-judgmental awareness to the table and to be thinking of things like data.
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But I wouldn't want anyone to think that either of us were saying like, okay, we should be able to treat all of our feelings and experiences just like data, to the point where if someone says, go away and track your macros and just treat it like data, you should be able to just treat it like data.
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Well, if we've got a history of
you know what we could call trauma with dieting, body image and dietary restriction, then treating certain things like data are going to be quite as like it's not going to be a good gig.
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That's where, like, almost the meta awareness comes in, because when you're talking about tracking macros, so for me I was a calorie tracker and I remember many times that I thought I'll just track neutrally.
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You know, I just want to see and I think I meant it Like I think that I was really honestly trying to do that but what would have?
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So that might come from a place of what in polyvagal theory we call ventral vagal, which is more of the easy, connected, truly like using all of your brain, calm place in the inside of you, and maybe that idea was generated in that space.
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But then I started to track and maybe I, maybe I got through the first day, I don't know, but after a while I would notice that like the tracking was becoming more compulsive and I was also, when we talk about being aware of your states it was shifting into something more sympathetic, so it was shifting into more vigilant.
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When I would eat, I would notice like almost, like I don't know if this actually happened, but this is what it felt like, like you know how, when a dog or a squirrel, do you have squirrels over there?
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Oh yeah, I love squirrels.
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I like my favorite thing to watch.
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Oh yeah they're they're like, they're such sympathetic, little like sympathetic state, little creatures.
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They're like always in fight or flight, I feel like, and they're you know they're fast moving and when they, when there's a sound like they're, the ears prick up and they start.
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And that's sort of the way that I was feeling inside when it came to anything I was eating, you know.
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So this tracking that had started with this easy energy, became, I would notice, just like I was a little more alert and I was a little more you know like how many houses that okay, okay, right, you know that sort of energy came into it.
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And this is where I was like, oh, this awareness of watching my state change in through this action was help, is and remains helpful to me, not that I calorie count, but in anything I'm doing, even with this, with exercise, like I'll notice when, because I can sometimes lean into, like I've been exercising, that you know I started running again, like let me keep running, you know, and I'll just notice in my body, like when is that shifting away from ease ease in the body when I think about this to a little bit of more vigilance and more of this sort of sympathetic state, this more, you know, it leans a little more, starts to lean a little more compulsive,
and just by noticing the way that it feels in my body, that is an indication to me of where my guardrails are and like, okay, I'm getting towards this place in my nervous system.
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That's this cue for me to kind of come, you know, in the ways we do that are is a whole another episode.
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But to come back down to a regulated place so that I don't end up in freeze, you know.
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So I end up compulsively exercising to the point where now I'm swept up in that whole process and my body needs to shut down a little bit for me.
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Those guardrails that you mentioned and being able to get a sense of where they are by the feeling in the body that comes with different experiences, I found to be one of the most valuable things, one of the most valuable skill sets to learn, of anything that I've started to practice around food, workload, emotional management, anything like that because it can be very easy to start intellectualizing how much is enough, when should I rest, how hard should I work, how much food do I need and when we approach all these things from an intellectual standpoint, like trying to to know just on an intellectual level, like when's a good time to rest versus when's a good time to give myself a bit of a pep talk and power through being able to tell the difference in those two situations is going to come down to the feeling that you have in your body.
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Because, 100% like I, there's not very often despite how much Instagram content I might produce, there's not very often that I wake up in the morning and go, ah, I can't wait to produce Instagram content.
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So sometimes I very much need to go all right, come on like get it done.
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But then that how do we know the difference between constructively saying, all right, get up off your ass and get it done to like whipping a horse that desperately needs to lie down, and the difference is going to be the feeling that we have in our body.
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That comes with.
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Yeah, yeah, I love that so much.
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I want you to come on my podcast to talk about it, because that is so well articulated, like this distinction between intellect and the body's cues and respecting the body's cues.
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And as you were talking, I was like oh, what are mine?
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You know, like how do I feel that?
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And I could identify, like when, and I used Instagram content as my, you know just the feeling of there's a feeling of when I need to lay down or when I need to not do something, when I need to not push, and that presents for me as I think it gets quite loud for me at this point, you know, it quickly asserts itself and it feels like it kind of feels like a swirling in my head.
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It feels a bit like a rush up into my head where there's a real instinct to to repel, like to know.
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It almost comes through as a no in my head.
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Not intellectual, right, it's because intellectually I might be saying why not?
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Like what's the big deal?
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You rested yesterday, you had all it was yesterday was Sunday.
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What's the problem?
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But in my body, if I'm feeling this real like you know, sort of in my head, this is like oh, there's something there Don't push that versus when it is a matter of just like, kind of getting my bullet, you know pulling up my bootstraps in the most you know sincere sense, and that comes from that's more of like there's a, there's a down in my body.
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There's this feeling of like something's pulling me down but it can be uplifted.
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I can sense that sort of energy.
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It's lower level, it's not up here in my head like freaking me out.
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I feel the difference.
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I think, yeah, like one's below the neck and one's above and and that's just me, right?
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So this isn't necessarily saying that that's how you would experience it, but I've, by tracking, I've learned how to tell what, what shows up for me, how, and that's going to be unique to all of us.
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But when you get familiar with that, you're like oh, oh right, this is what it feels like when I need to rest and this is what it feels like when I when I can do that, I just need to, like, give myself a little boost, you know oh, good Lord, that's so important and I'm like thank you for sharing the signals that that helped you decide or helped you know what you need, because mine and I'm really grateful that you said you know this is this will be different for everyone, because that's so important.
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Like it's not like you or I could sit here and go now look for this feeling, this feeling and this feeling and that's going to be the sign that you need to do exactly this.
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And that's frustrating as hell for a lot of people, like because it requires us to tune into our experience and find out for ourselves what our what, what our signals are, because we can't outsource the discovery of that.
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We can't say to someone just give me the formula and let me follow it.
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It's so annoying because it requires us to kind of tune in.
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And for me it's like when I genuinely need to rest, rather than, you know, give myself a at a boy off, you go kind of get through it.
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It the genuine need to rest comes with almost like a nausea,
like a feeling, like right down in my solar plexus, like my stomach is, is almost like there's a bit of like unrest in my stomach.
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Sometimes my chest even gets a little bit tight and I can.
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I can feel like it's, it's right in my solar plexus, there, like, and it just sits there, versus when I might just be feeling a bit unmotivated it's.
00:25:40.157 --> 00:25:46.848
It doesn't have that same acute visceral sense like in the body.
00:25:47.555 --> 00:25:59.144
Yeah, yeah, it's flatter, yeah, I, it is true, like you want the cliff notes for how to tell things so much easier.
00:25:59.164 --> 00:26:05.134
And again, diaculture to right, when you're coming off the heels of that, where it's like here's the formula, here's what you do, here's the macro count.
00:26:05.134 --> 00:26:10.355
You know it's like, okay, that's I can do that and this requires so much more legwork.
00:26:10.355 --> 00:26:24.481
But it I find it really helpful actually to hear, like even what you're saying, because when I hear from other people what their cues are, I find that so it's like oh yeah, I can relate to that one, or no, I don't relate to that.
00:26:24.481 --> 00:26:35.057
For me it feels like this it can kind of clarify for you when you, even in the even, in the just even, if you don't resonate with it, even knowing even that's data, you know like, okay, well, it doesn't feel like that necessarily.
00:26:35.057 --> 00:26:46.055
I think it actually feels more like this now that you mentioned it, you know, and so you can sort of use, you can bounce off of other people's experiences to help you clarify your own or get us even contextualize what you're looking for.
00:26:46.737 --> 00:27:10.210
Yeah, and there are mental cues as well, like these, these thoughts that show up, that maybe at one point in time we looked at and went, oh you know, this is what I really feel or this is what I really think, when in reality it's just a thought, that's not really a reflection of our true self, following a low feeling or an anxious feeling through the door.
00:27:10.210 --> 00:27:19.842
I found it really useful and this is something I coach now and we, of course, we need to walk a really fine line between doing this and like gaslighting ourselves.
00:27:19.842 --> 00:27:29.396
It's there's a lot of nuance and it's a skill that requires developing and and practice, and there's all that non-judgmental awareness that we need to bring to the table.
00:27:29.396 --> 00:27:41.674
But I'm embarrassed to admit that I'll, you know, I'll share with you some of the thoughts, like when I recognize that I'm having these thoughts, I 100% know that.
00:27:41.694 --> 00:27:49.528
Okay, if I check in with how I feel right now, oh yeah, actually I feel like crap and these thoughts aren't really me Like.
00:27:49.528 --> 00:28:02.526
So I've started to recognize these particularly embarrassing thoughts as red flags that I might need to rest or set back for a minute or chill, rather than a cue to take these particular thoughts very seriously.
00:28:02.526 --> 00:28:10.303
And one of these red flag thoughts for me is like I'll start very readily blaming other people for my problems.
00:28:10.303 --> 00:28:25.451
Yeah, like if I noticed myself going it's their fault and it's their fault and I'm always working so hard and putting so much effort into everything, why can't this person pull their weight?
00:28:25.451 --> 00:28:31.615
Or that person do better, and you know, fuck that person for oversimplifying this and making a career out of it.
00:28:31.615 --> 00:28:36.826
But then I'll be like oh wait a minute.
00:28:37.367 --> 00:28:37.667
Yeah.
00:28:38.088 --> 00:28:40.795
No, I thought those thoughts like they're not.
00:28:40.795 --> 00:28:42.298
That's not really me.
00:28:42.298 --> 00:28:49.592
Yes, that's my mind, just following how I feel down into a hole.
00:28:49.592 --> 00:28:58.597
So I need to put those thoughts aside for a second, not take them too seriously and do something nice myself for a minute.
00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:00.942
Oh, I relate.
00:29:00.942 --> 00:29:03.525
I do that with my husband.
00:29:03.525 --> 00:29:11.703
I will start picking at him and everything he'll do is just, that's just I will.
00:29:11.703 --> 00:29:12.404
And he knows.
00:29:12.404 --> 00:29:18.948
It's like this kind of thing where it's gotten to the point where I'm like, oh, everything, oh, and he's like go take a nap.
00:29:18.948 --> 00:29:24.015
You know, it's like you're there and I am there and, I'll admit it, I'm fully.
00:29:24.015 --> 00:29:29.454
As soon as I'm called out, I'm like, yeah, all right, that's what that is, I and you know what.
00:29:29.454 --> 00:29:34.752
To be honest, that stuff used to bother me because I used to really think, oh, like do I do?
00:29:34.752 --> 00:29:38.202
I hate him now?
00:29:38.262 --> 00:29:55.976
Yes, it's like, oh my God, and I'm I'm glad you said that in regards to your husband, because I'll take this a step further now and say, yeah, I blame my wife for stuff, but I'm really, yes, and I catch myself out doing this more in a more self aware way now, like sorry, honey.
00:29:55.976 --> 00:30:07.228
Yeah, but like you know, I catch the thoughts now before they become actions like yeah and you know, before we actually start blaming people.
00:30:07.268 --> 00:30:18.318
But it's a really tough one is experiencing these thoughts in a way that make us question relationships or question careers or question you know.
00:30:18.318 --> 00:30:31.308
We start to question the big things in our life and take those thoughts really seriously when really we just need like I don't know, I just laid out for a minute sleep I.
00:30:32.095 --> 00:30:36.421
I last this last weekend just passed last Sunday.
00:30:36.421 --> 00:30:48.675
I woke up on Sunday morning and sat down to have a coffee because, of course, caffeine is exactly what you need when
you're, like, emotionally Disregulated yeah, that's just the cortisol.
00:30:48.675 --> 00:30:50.684
Yeah, just more cortisol constantly.
00:30:50.684 --> 00:30:54.752
And I found myself sitting in the kitchen and I felt myself go.
00:30:54.752 --> 00:30:57.338
Oh my god, why is this kitchen so filthy?
00:30:57.986 --> 00:30:58.086
And.
00:30:58.165 --> 00:30:59.970
I like I needed.
00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:04.098
I felt this like angry compulsion to clean my environment.
00:31:04.098 --> 00:31:05.936
Yeah, yeah to clean the kitchen.
00:31:05.936 --> 00:31:07.144
I need to put all this in order.
00:31:07.144 --> 00:31:12.269
My poor wife is sitting there just like, okay, where did this go?
00:31:12.269 --> 00:31:13.413
All right, we're doing this now.
00:31:13.413 --> 00:31:14.576
I guess we're cleaning.
00:31:14.576 --> 00:31:25.865
Cool, he's having a moment, yeah, and she just kind of let me clean the kitchen and was very patient with me for a minute while she went and did something else.
00:31:26.086 --> 00:31:44.758
But yeah yeah, it, it, these thoughts, the and these things can, can manifest in different ways and if we're not Aware of where it might be coming from, or not aware that it might be a passing state or just we need to chill out it, if we believe them too much or too literally, it can get really problematic.
00:31:45.038 --> 00:31:58.045
Yeah, when I came home from this trip that I mentioned in the beginning that those the first, that was really the Monday especially I was quite low and I was like I don't want to do this anymore.
00:31:58.045 --> 00:32:02.421
I don't want to be a coach, I want to go live off the fat of the land in Vermont.
00:32:02.421 --> 00:32:03.565
That's what I want to do now.
00:32:03.565 --> 00:32:20.693
I don't wanted and I love this job, like I love this work, I love it but I and this was the kind of thing where I really felt like, nope, I'm done, I just want a simple life and Knowing, you know, like it, taking that too seriously, would you know, like that would scare me, you know.
00:32:20.773 --> 00:32:23.980
But but I know it's kind of like, and when you spoke about gaslighting, it's kind of.
00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:28.828
It's like I don't think this 95% of the time.
00:32:28.828 --> 00:32:34.881
So this is, this is a reflection of my state, not a reflection of my desires.
00:32:34.881 --> 00:32:35.464
You know what I mean.
00:32:35.464 --> 00:32:45.099
And I think when, when something's showing up a lot, or when something relentlessly presents, even in times where you're not low, that would be more of a like what is here.
00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:45.845
You know what I mean.
00:32:45.845 --> 00:32:47.833
Is this something that I do need to pay attention to?
00:32:47.833 --> 00:32:49.508
Versus thing?
00:32:49.508 --> 00:32:53.959
You know, things that seem to be really coinciding with states of your system.
00:32:53.959 --> 00:32:55.869
Oh, Hallelujah.
00:32:56.271 --> 00:32:58.708
Yes, that's sort of true.
00:32:58.708 --> 00:33:14.256
If something, if something's happening just all the time, if it's a reoccurring thought, a reoccurring concern, like a reoccurring thing that happens even when you feel good, or Even when you feel well rested or whatever, like, oh yeah, that's an amazing way to look at it.
00:33:14.256 --> 00:33:15.198
I love that.
00:33:15.198 --> 00:33:44.217
That, versus the kind of thoughts and feelings that only appear in very specific times, I I think I'm again Slightly embarrassed to admit this, but I think the first thing, the first experience that really turned me on to how this works, was being hungover and realize yeah, and realizing that, wow, I think and believe different things.
00:33:44.657 --> 00:34:11.164
If I'm hungover and you know, that was like 2017, when I was still partying kind of hard and there was it literally like these, these moments when I was I Remember a particular day being at this tiny startup gym that I worked at in like 2018 and being like, oh my god, like I did not feel like this the other day.
00:34:11.164 --> 00:34:13.054
Why do I believe all these things?
00:34:13.054 --> 00:34:34.318
And just having the second of checking in with her, I'm like, wow, I'm like rancidly hungover right now and this is this is this is what I was thinking and feeling and believing the last time this happened an embarrassingly short time ago, and I didn't feel this way in those few days in between.
00:34:35.266 --> 00:34:37.454
Yeah, and I was well hydrated and well rested.
00:34:38.666 --> 00:34:45.173
Yes, mmm, yes, I, I, oh, my, my drinking days.
00:34:45.173 --> 00:34:54.367
I have three kids now and it's like, so they're so few and far between, but I, that was actually really hard when I, when I was drinking more before I had kids, like Because it happened.
00:34:54.367 --> 00:34:58.795
So, you know, frequently it was like you do start to question like is this me?
00:34:58.795 --> 00:35:02.360
You know, is that, is this my state, is this?
00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:13.965
Yeah, it's very scary to feel this way, or even in lows, right like when you're tired and you can have lower more, if you have ever dealt with depression, and to have the, the memories of that sort of come come back.
00:35:14.867 --> 00:35:23.373
I had depression for chronically for years, and now, when I'm tired or low energy, like, sometimes those thoughts come back and I'm like, oh, is that?
00:35:23.373 --> 00:35:25.538
I know, you know, like, am I getting depressed again?
00:35:25.538 --> 00:35:29.672
Like, no, no, this is, this is just the low state that you're in and that will.
00:35:29.672 --> 00:35:38.356
That passes through, because for me, at this point, I, my, my, I Don't have depression on a chronic level anymore, so it does pass.
00:35:38.356 --> 00:35:40.722
I'm not saying you know that that's always the case.
00:35:40.722 --> 00:35:49.045
Sometimes we are struggling with something and it feels very pervasive and we don't have
the Privilege of just being able to say this will pass and I won't all feel better tomorrow when I'm well rested.
00:35:49.045 --> 00:35:56.811
You know it's sometimes it's a different scenario, but but still, I do still think it's a reflection of this, of the state You're in, either acutely or chronically.
00:35:57.789 --> 00:36:32.376
That's a really important distinction to make there, that and I say this because I know that there's so much content out there and so many philosophies out there that really oversimplify wellness, both physical and mental, that really paint this picture of you know, if you're not feeling good, or your thoughts are this way, or you're feeling the other way, or whatever it might be, you need like 10 minutes of self care, you need to go ask the water on a decent sleep and then that should solve your problems.
00:36:32.545 --> 00:36:35.393
But really, like it's not always that simple.
00:36:35.393 --> 00:36:54.157
So, and this conversation, of course, like there are times when, like rest is necessary and it's about a passing state, and there are times, like you said I think the word you mentioned was pervasive when things are a bit more, when things have a tighter hold or more of a chronic hold on things.
00:36:54.157 --> 00:37:26.188
And I'm wondering again, in the name of not gaslighting ourselves, in the name of recognizing when something is a passing state that we might be able to correct with a few more simple steps, versus the kind of thing that might require a bit more support, what do you think the keys are in knowing the difference, so that we don't give ourselves a hard time, gaslight ourselves, deny, our own experience, what do you think are?
00:37:26.327 --> 00:37:27.972
the things we need to take into account there.
00:37:29.284 --> 00:37:45.164
I think back to this particular time in my life when I mean, no matter what I did, no matter how much, well, first of all, I find it very difficult even to do that, so I didn't exactly even have the motivation to take care of myself or to like that wasn't there.
00:37:45.164 --> 00:37:57.768
So maybe partly is looking at even the motivation to be able to offer yourself things that might help you through, whereas now I feel like, oh yeah, like I'm much more likely to go to hear the cues and respond to the cues.
00:37:57.768 --> 00:38:06.094
At that time, even if I'd known about the cues, I don't know that I would have had the energy to care or to do anything about it.
00:38:06.094 --> 00:38:12.773
And I think when there's that pervasive low energy and that's something that you just not, you hear all the things.
00:38:12.773 --> 00:38:14.579
They make sense to you, but they sort of.
00:38:14.579 --> 00:38:47.373
But there's some something else inside of you that's just not able to and I don't say not able, but it's just not landing enough or it's not, it's not connecting enough and there's not a movement that this is more of a chronic state of something sucking your
energy more, more than just you didn't get you drank yesterday or you got, or you didn't get a good night's sleep, something that might be related to and at the time, for me I'll use myself as an example there was a chronic state of lost energy around.
00:38:47.373 --> 00:38:51.231
I wasn't doing the things I wanted to be doing, I wasn't with the people I wanted to be with.
00:38:51.231 --> 00:38:52.750
These were the larger things.
00:38:52.750 --> 00:39:06.639
There were things about my life situation that were not aligned and that was soul sucking and that, over time, started to wear me down to the point where my body went into a freeze type of place.
00:39:06.824 --> 00:39:16.675
And, looking at the chronic nature, I think of your energy state and how often, how easily, are you able to get to a place where things feel okay?
00:39:16.675 --> 00:39:18.250
Is that even accessible?
00:39:18.250 --> 00:39:24.710
Because if it's not, there might be something larger going on that's creating your body to stay in an anxious place.
00:39:24.710 --> 00:39:31.291
It would be staying in sympathetic state more often, or a dorsal vagal, which would look a little bit more like depression more often.
00:39:31.291 --> 00:39:40.413
The accessibility of this other, this more ventral, vagal, easy, calm, regulated state, is, quote unquote, a healthy nervous system.
00:39:40.413 --> 00:39:43.514
That's where things are balanced generally.
00:39:43.514 --> 00:39:48.969
They'll never completely, will always be in some always bounce around, but that you have availability of that.
00:39:48.969 --> 00:40:00.614
If you're not feeling like, you have availability of feeling calm ever or rarely, or being able to rest well or even feel motivated to do so.
00:40:00.614 --> 00:40:04.393
That might be an indication that there's other things pulling on your energy chronically.
00:40:04.393 --> 00:40:05.668
And what are those things?
00:40:05.668 --> 00:40:06.987
What's going on?
00:40:09.784 --> 00:40:11.530
Things that are pulling on our energy chronically.
00:40:11.530 --> 00:40:38.235
Again, we could have a whole other series of episodes about that and how to recognize when something in our environment whether it be the company we're keeping or the career that we're a part of, or what we're doing like something, how to actually change that, because, of course, there's no greeting card answer for how to navigate that situation and it can be difficult.
00:40:38.235 --> 00:40:52.335
So I think if anyone listening to this is thinking about how to identify what I'm feeling and when and what might the most helpful response be.
00:40:53.329 --> 00:40:59.452
I don't want to admit it to myself because if I admit it to myself, I'm going to have to change this huge life thing that I don't feel ready for.
00:40:59.452 --> 00:41:03.974
I don't have the energy for that, but it also is taking a massive amount of energy to not look at it.
00:41:03.974 --> 00:41:16.367
So even it doesn't necessarily mean that in order to move on this, that you have to fix your life, that you have to leave your partner or leave your career or whatever it might be.
00:41:16.367 --> 00:41:31.313
Just simply naming what you and looking at something and saying I think this is something I need to pay attention to can offload not all for sure, but a significant amount of energy that it's taking to resist it, to keep it under.
00:41:31.313 --> 00:41:36.434
So that's a viable thing to place to start anyway.
00:41:37.164 --> 00:41:55.813
I think that's an amazing advice, an incredible place to start and just a brilliant thing to notice and call out as well that the act of denying and suppressing something takes energy, Like it might feel confronting to go okay, this thing.
00:41:55.813 --> 00:42:00.590
It's not simple to change, but this thing I'm not happy with.
00:42:00.590 --> 00:42:06.277
Being honest about that and owning that, of course, isn't the easiest thing in the world.
00:42:06.277 --> 00:42:18.208
But also denying and suppressing and saying oh, it's okay, or that's not a problem, or I don't want to address it, that requires upkeep, that requires emotional upkeep.
00:42:18.208 --> 00:42:23.135
It takes energy and that's draining us in an entirely different way.
00:42:23.135 --> 00:42:24.798
So I love that advice.
00:42:25.025 --> 00:42:35.896
I think it's really helpful that, just if we are shying away from a bigger problem, we get to choose the way that we expend our energy on that big problem.
00:42:35.896 --> 00:42:39.876
It's going to be difficult to suppress it and deny it.
00:42:39.876 --> 00:42:43.434
It's also going to be difficult to acknowledge it.
00:42:43.434 --> 00:42:50.628
Dying it doesn't mean that we're obligated to take world-changing steps immediately.
00:42:50.628 --> 00:43:05.039
I remember when I was having some severe issues in my career, like when I was working in commercial gyms and I'd really done my time there and I was ready to leave and I hated every moment.
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:12.036
But just walking into the gym manager's office and going I fucking quit, I'm out.
00:43:12.036 --> 00:43:22.313
That would have put me in a situation where it would like out of the frying pan into the fire, like within a week, I would have been like okay, shit, I have no money
00:43:22.775 --> 00:43:23.456
everything's fucked.
00:43:23.456 --> 00:43:43.952
But at that stage it very much became a case of like going to bed every night knowing that during that day I'd taken another small step to change that big situation, even when the big situation itself hadn't conspicuously changed yet.
00:43:43.952 --> 00:43:52.097
It still felt better to be able to finish each day knowing, okay, I took a step in the right direction.
00:43:52.097 --> 00:44:03.500
Today, even though it's hard, still felt better to do that than it did to continue on that path and wake up every morning knowing that the previous day I did nothing to change it.
00:44:04.230 --> 00:44:11.862
Yeah, yeah, like moving releases some energy versus staying still.
00:44:11.862 --> 00:44:16.077
Yeah, I feel that 100%.
00:44:17.949 --> 00:44:23.233
I'm wondering if there's, because, like time has just flown along this conversation.
00:44:23.233 --> 00:44:52.521
I'm wondering if there's anything that came up for you during your recent workshop or anything that's come up in your coaching recently that you feel is particularly interesting or that you're passionate about, that you'd like to share, because the topic that we addressed today, that we chatted about today, came at the end of our last conversation, when we were kind of talking about things that have come up that have been relatively interesting, or trends that we've seen in the nutrition space or anything like that.
00:44:52.590 --> 00:45:08.693
So I'm wondering if there's anything that you've clocked over the last few months, anything that you're working on, anything that you think might be, even if it's completely unrelated to what we were talking about today, anything you might be interested to just throw into the mix as a final note.
00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:30.034
This topic, the nervous system work has been the focus of what I've been doing and the way that I've been shifting I don't want to say shifting, I mean I still very much am passionate about binge eating, recovery and body image and general disorder eating and eating disorder recovery.
00:45:30.489 --> 00:45:36.418
This has been such a different lens on it and it's something that I'm leaning more into and trying to merge even more so.
00:45:37.570 --> 00:46:17.101
So I think I mentioned I'm getting a certification in somatic experiencing, so that's been where my heart and soul have been and I don't know that there's been more than that going on, because I've just been like, because that's such work that you're doing yourself, the one thing I mean it's still related to it, but I would say that over the past, since I saw you last, the thing, the angle of this that has been really interesting to me and what I've been watching and doing and practicing and helping clients with, is this it's going to sound so simple and it's very anticlimactic, but it's this art of slowing down.
00:46:17.101 --> 00:46:37.594
But I don't mean just in the generic sense, I actually mean so in this training that I took back in August, we had to be the client and so we told our stories and things, memories we had or moments we had where our nervous systems were activated in a really big way, and so we had to tell the story.
00:46:37.594 --> 00:46:46.219
We each had a story, and in mine I was explaining the story and the practitioner was having me literally tell this story at a micro speed.
00:46:46.219 --> 00:46:47.896
It was painful, it's awful.
00:46:47.989 --> 00:46:51.416
I just wanted to get to the end and I just wanted to tell you what happened.
00:46:51.416 --> 00:47:04.753
But she slowed me down to minutia, these
microseconds upon microseconds of the experience, and when she did that, as much as my brain was like, can we get on with it?
00:47:04.753 --> 00:47:09.601
My body was going through something.
00:47:09.601 --> 00:47:16.793
It was like re-experiencing it, but in slow motion, which has helped me really, really feel and I've known it.
00:47:16.793 --> 00:47:38.221
But I felt I was like my nervous systems work 20 times slower, more probably, than our brains do, and in this exercise of slowing down something that you want to rush past because it's uncomfortable, you really give your body the chance to feel something to its completion, rather than bypassing it very quickly.
00:47:38.309 --> 00:47:49.757
So I've been using this a lot with discomfort in my life, like times where I'm agitated, sad, stressed, doubtful, insecure, angry.
00:47:49.757 --> 00:48:17.197
I've just been sort of saying what happens when I slow this down, because I wouldn't, otherwise I would never do this, naturally and when I do slow it down, it's like my body has a chance to catch up and when that happens, I notice a shift again in my nervous system of, instead of holding this energy through my day, it allows it to process almost, and that has been something that I've been using with clients.
00:48:17.197 --> 00:48:22.898
It almost is applicable every session, and so I'm a big advocate of that's.
00:48:22.898 --> 00:48:34.577
Where I have a lot of focus right now is letting our nervous systems catch up to the environment and to our thoughts, because they don't usually have a chance to do that.
00:48:35.489 --> 00:48:38.018
Especially not when we're in that squirrel mode.
00:48:38.469 --> 00:48:40.213
Yeah, love the squirrel.
00:48:41.909 --> 00:48:51.614
Pinballing from one thing to another mentally and with our attention, while our body is just doing its best to keep up with that process with any way possible.
00:48:51.614 --> 00:48:53.853
So that's incredible.
00:48:54.471 --> 00:48:57.152
I'd love to hear more about that, for sure.
00:48:59.130 --> 00:49:07.114
For anyone who'd love to chat more with you or find you or even your wonderful podcast, where's the best place to track you down?
00:49:08.989 --> 00:49:16.693
The podcast is called Life After Diets and I co-host that with Sarah DeSange, the binge eating therapist, and I'm otherwise on Instagram and I have a website.
00:49:16.693 --> 00:49:17.876
I am Stephanie Michelle.
00:49:18.539 --> 00:49:22.675
Cool, I'll make sure there are links to those in the episode description.
00:49:22.675 --> 00:49:24.179
Thank you, cool.
00:49:24.179 --> 00:49:25.472
Chat again soon.
00:49:26.094 --> 00:49:27.038
Yes, nice to be here.
00:49:27.489 --> 00:49:29.898
Thank you so much for joining us for today's episode.
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As I mentioned at the start, this November and December I'm running the Take Back December Intensive six week program that's going to help you have a sense of peace and calm surrounding food over the holiday season.
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This is a one to one program with me that runs for six weeks, from the very start of November up until mid December.
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If you want more information, either book a call with me by following the link in the episode description, or just click on the info link, which you can also find in the episode description.
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After so many years of the holiday season for me being an absolute mess of binge eating and anxiety surrounding food, followed by this mad rush to try and get my health back on track in January, it makes me really happy to be able to provide something like this for you guys.
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Last year, take Back December was just a single workshop, whereas this year it's a whole six week course.
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So drop me a line If you have any questions.
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My name's Marcus Kane.
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This was Strong Note Stealving and I'll be back next week.