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current boyfriend for the final night of the trip. He came to the hotel and he's gonna come to the party that Bronwyn is throwing at the end. Now, the whole point of this whole trip for Bronwyn was to show the women. what her life was like in San Francisco. She wants to introduce old and new. She's doing a lot of like, you know, identity work throughout here. And so she wants to bring Brandon to meet the San Francisco friends and and the Salt Lake friends. and again it comes up of like, well, this is a girls' trip, why why is the boy here? but the episode ends with Bronwyn throwing this party with San Francisco friends, Salt Lake Friends, and her new boyfriend. She throws a 70s party at the hotel that they're staying at. It's like a disco. she's melding all of her worlds together. It's definitely like Bronwyn's party. And it ends with Heather and Meredith. They get at the DJ booth. Ian, you were so excited about this that there was going to be a dish track. The dish track is called I mean, we're going to call it what it's called. I don't know if we're cussing on this or not, or if we need to bleep it out, but we Ian (07:50) Well we're gonna have to. Tori (07:51) have to. It's literally the song. The song is called Hypocrisy and Bullshit. Ian (07:56) And it was Lisa and Meredith? Okay. Tori (07:56) And but Lisa and Meredith is that what did I say? I must have accidentally said Heather You're correct. Thank you for the correction. It's Lisa and Meredith 'cause that Heather and Meredith would never do a distract together. Lisa and Meredith Ian (08:08) I'm also done with the episode. I remembered a name that that's g I'm gonna as the kids would say, I've peaked. That's it. yes, Tori (08:13) Yeah, yeah, you've peaked. You you corrected me on what yes. Ian (08:17) that's that's it. I'm done. I'm gonna wrap it up. Tori (08:19) I was reading I was I had a note about Heather and Meredith for something else. Ian (08:23) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tori (08:24) But yeah, so their their dish track because I I use the term song very lightly. It is just them saying hypocrisy and bullshit over and over again. Ian I know you have thoughts on it, but that's Ian (08:35) I do. Tori (08:36) that's where the episode ends is the seventies party, the quote unquote dish track, and Bronwyn leaves her own party So we will definitely, talk more in depth about some of these scenes, but I do wanna give you the stage, Ian, because I know you have thoughts on Ian (08:53) Yes. Yes. I do. you know, I I feel there's a part of me that like as you talked about that I wanna say into the microphone betrayal. Because I feel betrayed by the diss track and because they were doing Tori (09:03) Trail. Ian (09:06) that in the microphone. I was really excited about it in growing up listening to hip hop and things like distracts were Tori (09:09) Yeah. gosh. You set the bar really high. Yeah. These expectations. Ian (09:15) You know, we all make mistakes. You know? it's n

Tori (09:18) So it's not Kendrick versus Drake. Ian (09:21) no, no. I also think the context was really surprising to me. I was thinking Tori (09:27) Uh-huh. Ian (09:28) like, you know, small intimate group, you know, maybe they share it with one other person in the group, then it gets back to other people. Like, I was not anticipating What happened? So Tori (09:42) Yeah, for it to be like at the party that Bronwyn was throwing. Ian (09:46) Well not just the amount of people that were there. Like it just Tori (09:49) Yeah. Ian (09:49) it was it was very surprising to me. but I Tori (09:52) Yeah, yes. Ian (09:53) think we can get to that at the end 'cause I I do have many, many thoughts on that. but we can circle back to that. Tori (09:56) timing timing certainly mattered on that. Okay, so where should we start with this? Ian (10:01) well I think in the beginning, right, it's really interesting 'cause they've opened up the last two episodes with whether it's FaceTimes or more intimate one on one conversations and what we have, you know, noted and and talked about and that they have brought up a lot is that while they're on this girls' trip and while there are many fun things going on, many of them are carrying like very heavy baggage going into this. we have talked about, you know, like while there are some marriages in different stages of sort of figuring out if the marriage still works, you know, one of the big themes that we really landed on was this idea of, you know, big changes in identity. And I think that's where, you Tori (10:37) Mm-hmm. Ian (10:37) know, is a good place to start. Cause I 'cause then we can digress into the experience. But I think these are things that that are are really important and maybe I will say this. I have never had the experience, knock on wood, unfortunately, of my friends creating a not at me but at me diss track at one of my parties. but I think we that's why I said knock on wood, and I said yet, the power of yet. Tori (10:56) Never say never. Ian (11:04) but I do think some of these, you know, maybe heavier or bigger, less concrete topics are are really important to get into because I think a lot of people can relate to. Right. I think Tori (11:15) Yeah. Ian (11:15) that's an important piece. Tori (11:17) Yes. Whitney and Bronwyn both seem to be going through, you know, trying to figure out what their identity is. Whitney talks a lot about her or not a lot, but she certainly mentions her age. She's about to turn forty. it's interesting because Whitney and Bronwyn have both lived in San Francisco at a different time of their life. And so they also kind of touch on that they're feeling very like reflective of when they lived there, now coming back to it. Braunwin has this theme of wanting to bring all of the people that have been in her life forever to to understand what her identity is right now, as she's going through a divorce. Whitney to me, it seems like, you know, she mentioned a lot of things like, they're going through a hard time, she's not happy. it seems like she wants freedom in turning forty. She mentions like she was with her husband at twenty five. Now, here's a little bit of side note too, or just context. Whitney and Justin were actually married to other people when they met. Ian (12:23) Mm. Tori (12:24) so that is also this is, you know, Whitney she didn't talk much about that in terms of like her relationship, but I'm pretty sure second, Ian (12:31) Yeah, I wouldn't have known that. Tori (12:33) yeah. or at least Justin had I think that they were both married. I guess I should have fact checked that. But Justin certainly was, But she talks about feeling like she grew up or she was just so young. And it's kind of interesting, you know, Ian and I we're not necessarily like couples counselors, but this idea, it seems like Whitney's kind of touching on it's like she's going through an identity crisis that is not connected to her husband at all. Or like she feels so tied. To her husband, that going through this hard time, I don't want to say blames it on her husband, but she has a hard time separating who she is apart from her husband. And that is kind of tricky. because of course in marriages you go through different stages you're not the same person you were at 25 at 40. it's great that she's being so vulnerable with it, but it's like that is what happens when you age. And and it seems like Whitney's response is I can't figure out who I am unless I'm alone. Ian (13:41) Mm-hmm. Tori (13:42) what was your take on that? Ian (13:43) I it's a very interesting contrast between Whitney and Bron because they are going through the same thing, maybe at different stages of it, right? They're both questioning to maybe, you know, changing their marriage. But I you know, from the little that I know about Bronwyn's marriage, it seemed very clear that at some point it became very black and white for Bronwin. It like I'm not happy. I'm not happy. Tori (14:07) Mm-hmm. Ian (14:08) I don't want to be with this person. I know what I want. And if you listen to Whitney talk, there was one moment where she mentioned very much paraphrasing here, but she mentioned some idea of well, I hope. Or she's moving into the guest bedroom. She's like, I hoped this would bring clarity, bring and it hasn't. And I think that's the most important part of this is you have two very contrasting sides where our brain loves the Braunwyn side of it's clear. I'm not Tori (14:34) Mm-hmm. Ian (14:34) happy. And therefore, I need to get out of this situation and change. It doesn't mean it's not scary, it doesn't mean it's not hard, but I know that this is not what I want. What I think we can all empathize with and why it is maybe more painful, or it there's more not necessarily empathy that don't feel for Bonwood, but maybe it's more raw, or at least it was for me watching Whitney, is like because she doesn't know. And our brain

Tori (14:54) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ian (14:57) hates not knowing or not having something predictable to do. There is no right or wrong. In this, and then there becomes risk, right? We are very risk-averse, you know, creatures. We don't, you know, we take certain risks, but at other times, particularly with relationships, we don't like risk of going from the familiar to the unfamiliar is one of the most difficult things humans can do. There's a lot of research that shows that humans actually, our brain would prefer us to stay in situations that are predictable but miserable. Then enter new Tori (15:30) Hm Ian (15:31) situations and have it be unknown. Because even though we're miserable, it is predictable. And you see Whitney coming to this sort of in a point of conflict where it's like this dissonance where it's like, I can't just live in the unhappy. I won't say miserable because she didn't say that, but I can't live in the unhappy anymore. But I don't know that not living in the unhappiness is better. And the contrast Tori (15:57) Mm-hmm. Ian (15:58) of it was really interesting to me because I think, you know, Bronwyn sort of catches a lot of flack for this of I'm again projecting a little bit here, how quickly she's moving on, right? as as Brittany has well informed us, the ink is not dry, so to speak, on, you know, the divorce yet. She's dating somebody else. She's going on these trips, right? But w Whitney is very it's very different. it's much more Again, on the surface, what we're seeing in this series of episodes is is the conflict, the uncertainty of what do I do. Tori (16:27) Right. She certainly hasn't made up her mind. I wonder how much watching Bronwyn go through that you know, w this is totally speculative maybe Whitney will talk about it later at the reunion, but how much that does influence what her decision making is. Because I think a lot of times too Even as you're describing the predictability of it, if you see someone that you can relate to going through it and, in some ways maybe thinking that they're thriving or Whitney talked about wanting to feel free, wanting to figure out who she was. And you kind of see braun one going through Ian (17:02) Yes. Tori (17:03) that. And I really do wonder, just out of true curiosity, how much that ends up relating or like I don't even want to say influencing, but when you're watching someone going through something and you think, if that's what I can predict, then maybe it is worth it or maybe it is okay to do or safer to do. because there's a moment on the boat when Bronwyn's opening up to Brittany well, yeah, Britney and Whitney. and Whitney's like, I'm going through the exact same thing, Bronwyn just doesn't know it yet. And so she's like taking these little tidbits of what Bronwyn is saying and I think internalizing them for her own situation. that can also kind of be messy too, because if you're relating to someone else's circumstance, thinking that that's going to be your

circumstance, that that can be dicey. Because to contrast, wow, Bronwyn's feeling so free and gaining her independence and finding it. Where at the beginning of the episode, I thought it was a really good question from Heather. She says, because Whitney says there's one other time that we thought we were gonna separate. And Heather's like, Well, are you glad that you didn't ten years ago? And Whitney's like, Yes, I'm so glad that we didn't it doesn't seem like Whitney's falling back on that being the experience, but more so the experience of what she's witnessing through Bronwyn. Again, a lot of that is just from what we're watching. I don't actually know, but just to compare and contrast what they're going through. And so much of what Whitney's saying is like, I relate so much to to that and I see that. And it just it's really sad to to be watching someone struggle that much in in a marriage. and again, the the separation of who am I. in or out of a relationship, I think is really hard to watch. 'cause you can still be an independent person within a marriage, but her black and white thinking and maybe comparing with Bronwyn seems like I have to be out of it or or not myself. Ian (19:04) Mm-hmm. Is a decision, ideally nobody would have to face, right? That you could be yourself and stay in if you want, but not feel the Tori (19:07) Right. Right. Right. Ian (19:10) the need. No, I you make a great point. You know, one of the crux of adolescence is that, you know, sometimes the reason adolescents will choose people who maybe are not the best for them is because adolescents are confused about who they are, but what they look to is the person who seems like they have it all together or who has the blueprint Tori (19:28) Mm-hmm. Ian (19:28) for what they want. And I think that's what you're describing. Is that while Whitney may not know what she wants in her relationship, she sees the feelings that Bronwyn has reflected in what she wants. And then, you know, it's an easy jump for our brain to say, well, if sh that's how she did it, then maybe that's how I need to do it. know, as we work with, you know, kids and adolescents, like I think there is such a difficult concept to relate, understand and practice the idea of how do I exist as an independent person in a relationship while I'm fully committed to the relationship. and for some people it does. It feels like in order to find myself I have to get rid of this current iteration of me completely. And, you know, we don't want Tori (20:07) Yes. Ian (20:07) to speculate on an any of that in terms of the the specifics for Whitney, but I I think just as a human, I think we can all relate to that feeling of confusion, being lost, not really being sure if we can take steps forward where we're at now, or if we need a complete change, but that complete change is terrifying, but then where does the dissonance give? Tori (20:28) Yes. Yes. It really is like you mentioned the all or nothing kind of thing. Like I just have to completely shed this version of me. And I think that that's definitely really tough for any part of life. But again, watching it through the lens of Ian (20:43) Yeah. Tori (20:44) like a marriage and divorce is is really hard. I think that that it's Ian (20:46) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tori (20:48) sad. Especially knowing too that like it really was this week, like before this episode aired that Whitney did file for divorce, like officially. So you do know that that's coming. Ian (20:55) Yeah, right. Right. Coming, yeah. Tori (20:59) and so yeah. I also think that Bronwyn's identity struggle is a little bit different because she's more in the mix of like, I have made this decision. And Ian (21:10) Mm-hmm. Tori (21:10) again, I don't know if it's so rosy for her as to maybe what we're describing, like, Whitney sees that it could be freedom, but Bronwyn really seems to be struggling with like I miss this version of my San Francisco self where everything felt so nice and happy and hopeful. And now I'm post-filing for divorce and she's like I'm trying to cling onto this version. And maybe if I just take everybody from both parts of my life and they all meet each other, then I will find the mesh within that. You can tell she's really trying hard to figure out like what the next version of herself is gonna be. Ian (21:49) And, you know, we we've talked about this in other episodes, maybe we can go a little bit more into it, but we create reference points, right. our brain creates reference points in our lives to again create predictability and give us sort of a roadmap the world that makes sense. And I think, you know, as you're describing, like obviously these these women have never been through this stage in their, thirties and forties or going through divorce. They've not really been through that same event at the same age before. Ron has no reference point for what this could be like in a positive way. And so we're trying to recreate old reference points. Right. This is the time Tori (22:22) Right. Ian (22:22) where I felt the things the most that I want to feel now. And so my Tori (22:26) Mm-hmm. Ian (22:27) first instinct is just to say, Well let me go back and try and recreate that. And that's an understandable reaction and an understandable desire, and yet I think again we don't know what's I I don't know what's gonna happen with her, but that typically is a really difficult thing to do because we often misremember our own experiences. Like every time we bring up a memory, our brain recalibrates or re-imprints the memory in ways that are inaccurate. And so Tori (22:59) Mm-hmm. Ian (23:00) It's not to discount, it's not to say that she didn't have a wonderful time in San Francisco. It's more about that's typically not a very fruitful way to search out the things you want is by looking for the old things, right? Because it they're they're not going Tori (23:14) Mm-hmm. Ian (23:15) to come back in the way

that we hope. Right. I can use myself as an example, right? I was conflating hypocrisy and bullshit with early nineties diss tracks and that was my reference point yeah I mean it's you know a bit lighter because this you know these are somewhat heavy topics but but it is it is my reference point was so far off Tori (23:26) I thought you were going a different way with that. That's funny. Yeah. Right. No, that that is a good point because you can like things that have happened in your past and feel nostalgic or feel like I wanna bring elements of this into my future, you that's a whole thing. But it almost seems like the way that Bronwyn is going about it is like if I can be in that place with these people, then I will feel this way. that can also be like kind of setting yourself up for a disappointment because you're setting your expectations for again, maybe a misremembered memory or a these again, I'm referencing like the rose colored glasses again, Ian (24:12) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (24:13) and then you kind of can set yourself up to feel bad that you don't feel the same way that you did ten years ago. And it's like, but what was that feeling? You know, so you're you're striving for something that you can't necessarily recreate in the way that you're expecting you to recreate it. you can't go back to any point in time and be the exact same person. Again, like you have new experiences. There's been time of certainly relationships have changed. Those people have changed you're not copying pasting those people into your current life. everyone has lived through different things and they all have different perspectives. So you're setting up to try and be this past version of yourself instead of wanting to think maybe like elements or themes or or characteristics that you could maybe work on or recreate, but instead trying to like recreate the actual memories. That's very tough. Ian (25:10) what you just said is likely I'm speculating on this. This is one of the most common things that I hear that causes people significant distress that is not always necessary. So what you said, Tori, was you walked us perfectly through this fallacy. It's called the if then or the if when fallacy, right? And that's where our brain tricks us into believing that if I get This or when I get here, when I get a raise, when I get in a relationship, then this preceding feeling happiness, freedom, or you know, with Whitney, right? If I wasn't in this, then I could feel happy. And you outlined that perfectly. And so for people who are overthinking with us, take away from this episode, if nothing else, the awareness of am I putting myself in if-then or if-when fallacy? Because if you are. It's creating a lot of unnecessary difficulty because what we're essentially telling our brain is that we can't have the thing that we want until Tori (26:12) Mm-hmm. Ian (26:13) everything else falls in line. And most of the time, what we're waiting on is external. We're not waiting

on internal, right? We're waiting on a job, a promotion, a relationship. And most of those things we don't have complete control over. So I want to highlight Tori (26:29) Yeah. Ian (26:30) that as a takeaway because Tora, you outlined that perfectly, if when or if then Falcy will will create so much distress when it doesn't need to be. Tori (26:40) Yes. Because and I say this to clients too when they're going through that is like that ends up getting you feeling very stuck. Again, because like you said, you are waiting on the external. You're waiting on something that you can't necessarily control to change how you feel internally. And it also takes away from your present moment. If you're only thinking about past or if or whatever, you are missing what's happening like right there in the moment. So there's a piece of like not being mindful to where you actually are and what you can control in the actual moments, versus feeling stuck or waiting for something else to happen or give. Why did that make you chuckle? Ian (27:20) I just cause there's this there's this saying that I don't remember who and so apologize, I don't know who said this, but it's paraphrasing of don't you wish you knew the good old days were the good old days when you were in Is it okay. Yeah, okay. Tori (27:31) that's the office. That's Andy from the office. Mm-hmm. Ian (27:34) Well thank wow. that was impressive. Okay. Shout out to Tori for that one. Woo Yes. I mean it's it's brilliant television, but Tori (27:35) Yeah. I'm not only a Bravo connoisseur, you know, the office is my is my other yeah. Yeah. Ian (27:45) But it made me chuckle and I, you know, you're right, because people are so focused on getting to emotions, but really the only place that we can feel an emotion that is based on our reality is in the present. Like if we're Tori (27:57) Uh-huh. Ian (27:58) feeling a a different emotion and our head is somewhere else, it's not actually based in our reality because it's not happening right in that moment. And the amount of people, particularly young people, adolescents come in there like you know, when I get into my dream college, then I'll be able to be happy or then I will Tori (28:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ian (28:15) be able to, you know, stop working so hard. And it's it's heartbreaking to see 'cause you can see somebody creating sort of this this cage that they're putting themselves in where it's like I'm only going to allow myself to feel this or only believe I can. when these things happen and then when they don't, the sense of helplessness, worthlessness sometimes is overwhelming. Tori (28:35) Mm-hmm. Ian (28:36) so I I just it was a great, great point that you made. I think that covers the identity piece. that was really good. where is our trolley tour taking us next, Tori, Or Tori (28:45) Ha yeah, I like the yeah, the trolley of San Francisco. Now okay, so I guess there's two things going into the party. We've talked about this in earlier

episodes, so I don't know how long we necessarily need to say it. Maybe we'll just say this is gonna be a theme throughout the whole season. Is that these semantics and implications and remembering things well it goes along with this too, like remembering things how you remember them and and how that made you feel versus maybe what actually happened is a huge theme for the whole season. So in particular for this episode, one thing that Lisa kind of gloms on to is that she thinks she hears Bronwyn saying. Meredith and Lisa are scheming. And she's really takes offense to that. They bring up the word scheming before they do the diss track. she says it in her confessional. they even show a replay of it's Britney saying, they're I don't even think she uses the word scheming, but like they're working together. The producers ask Lisa in her confessional, Did you know it was actually Britney? And she goes, No, it wasn't, it was Bronwyn. And it's like, no, they just showed the clip. It was Britney. but Lisa is really doubling down. She's offended that Bronwyn said Lisa and Meredith were scheming together and that they're attached at the hip. And here we go into this quote quote dissh track, which is really just Lisa saying hypocrisy and bullshit over and over and over. And then Meredith saying betrayal, just whispering betrayal. I'm bored. Betrayal. And like I've gotta say. It's been redone now. It has been edited and it's on Instagram like they produced it to do something. It's got a catchy little beat, but it's not a song and it's not a dish track. It's just them saying hypocrisy and Ian (30:38) It's like slam Tori (30:39) bullshit. Ian (30:40) yeah, it's almost like slam poetry to a beat. Tori (30:42) Yes, that's so much better. Yeah, yes. And now, okay, we'll talk about too, like everyone feels some sort of way about this, but I don't know. Lisa's really upset about that and they go really far with it. there was another instance of this semantics idea too, in that This is my note about Heather and Meredith instead of Lisa and Meredith. But I think that there's a much bigger difference when your friend is maybe giving you a hard time and roasting you about something versus if someone who doesn't like you is saying the exact same thing. And that kind of happens leading into this, and I feel like it's going to be a bigger topic like further in the season, is that at one point Heather was kind of roasting Bronwyn, saying like, your boyfriend's coming on the girls' trip, is Todd paying for your boyfriend to come? she said all of that to her face and Heather even acknowledges Bronwyn rolled with it. She got what we were saying. she knows it's a little bit like of a dig. But again, they start the episode saying we're gonna be a supportive friend to Bronwyn. But Meredith takes that and is like she is making implications about her marriage, saying that she is a whore in her marriage and that Brandon is a sex worker and like I I was like, is that what she said? I mean you can twist it, but like she said it to Bronwyn's face. So I don't know. I think that that's gonna be a problem later, but Ian (32:08) It's Well, I think it's been a problem for five episodes. But Tori (32:13) Right, right, right, right. Ian (32:14) you're making a fantastic point. Speak a little bit more to like what for people maybe are listening who are not familiar with like the semantics like when you say semantics, what are you describing in the cause the phenomenon that you're describing, but if you give people just a little bit more of like what that is or how you can how they can see it and 'cause I know what you mean, but just for people who may not Tori (32:32) Yeah. Ian (32:33) be as familiar with that term. Tori (32:34) Well, it's it's more to speak with what the actual words were and versus what the tone or what the actual implication was, right? It's funny that even in this episode, again, I'm I'm just quoting the women, okay? So I am gonna cuss Ian (32:48) Yeah. Tori (32:49) again. But even the episode starts with Lisa joking around with the word bitch can be used so differently, where you're like, Bitch. and she's like, that's my friend, if I say it like that, or bitch, that means that like I don't like you. And that's a really good example of what can be taken or twisted. It's tone, it's timing, it's the context of things that are said. And again, if we're talking about right, Ian (33:15) The emphasis on the syllables, it's yeah. Tori (33:18) if we're talking about misremembering or miscategorizing or whatever, there's a much bigger difference of like Bronwyn, is Todd fitting the bill to this? He he ha ha. yeah. Or Bronwyn made a joke about like I buy myself earrings or jewelry every time I have a big accomplishment. And they said, So what did you get when you started dating Brandon? And she's like, Brandon. or like that was like the gift to herself. And Ian (33:43) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (33:45) Meredith and Lisa are like, well, that's gross. She's implying he's a sex worker. And Bronwyn's in on the Ian (33:50) That is the most literal interpretation of anything you could say ever. Tori (33:56) Right. So Bronwyn's like in on the joke until she isn't, right? and so that was a long-winded way to say what I meant about semantics or like give other examples, but it's Ian (34:03) No, it was a great it was great. Tori (34:06) it's it's tone, it's timing, it's who it's said to, and what your understanding of it is as well. Like Bronwyn's understanding of Heather saying it to her is this is a joke, we're gonna laugh about it. that's certainly not her read on what Meredith is saying. yeah. Ian (34:23) Right. Right. Yeah. The the linguistic psychology of Lisa's Lisa has gems and or was it Meredith that talked about the bitch differences? y Tori (34:32) Lisa Ian (34:33) you could do a dissertation on the linguistic differences of I'm not actually changing the word, I'm changing how many letters,

syllables, and the tone, intensity, or variation of how I pronounce it. and and I think, you know, there's also this thing you were talking about, Brittany earlier and sort of this like This idea of confirmation bias, right? Where it's like, are you hearing the semantics could be. We don't know this. But the semantics could be being twisted because we are confirming what we want to hear. Like well, I think part of the reason this episode annoyed me so much is because Tori (35:03) Mm. Ian (35:05) it was like they were looking for confirmation of whose side they were gonna and who they were aligned with. And as you're talking about like, my god, this is it. Cause the confirmation bias is that's what drives me crazy. It's like I couldn't that's what was I could not keep up with who didn't like who in any given moment. And you're looking Tori (35:21) Mm-hmm. Ian (35:22) at these things where they're either confirming their bias or they're confirming their bias. Like not a lot of times are they letting in information that doesn't confirm their bias. Like that's what you're describing with Brittany, right? Where she's being played a clip by the producers that completely contradicts what sorry, Lisa Tori (35:37) Or Lisa about Brittany. Yeah. Ian (35:39) about Britney that completely contradicts what she thought. And yet she just confirms what she already thinks because that's our brain d again, our brain doesn't like to be challenged or have things be contradictory. I think that's part of what annoyed me so much. I could not keep up with who was beefing with who. Tori (35:56) You know what? That is such a good segue to into the diss track because as you say confirmation bias, it does feel like maybe that's what Heather Lisa and Meredith were looking for was the reason that they are allowed to do this diss track at Bronwyn's party. And Going back to semantics, how people take things, also they call it a dish track, but then when people get offended, they're like, Well, you it's just a joke. Like everyone just needs to be able to laugh with it. So I feel like that's a really good segue into how people mean things and how people take things, and searching for like, well, it's okay for me to have said this because number one, it's just a joke, or Maybe even doubling down, it's okay that I said this because I think Bronwyn said that I was scheming. it's like, this is my appropriate response because they've been talking about me. The producers even ask Lisa, what is your beef with Bronwyn? And I got to be honest, it seems like she is struggling to come up with reasons as to why that was an appropriate time to lay down this diss track. Because it's like, I don't know if anything of what you just said was really happening, but that's your reason for the diss track. But then also it's just a joke. So which one is it? Mm-hmm. Ian (37:18) The producers are rock stars. They asked a bunch of leading questions to Lisa to try to get her to stumble into

saying it was Tori (37:24) Mm-hmm. Ian (37:25) directly at Bronwyn, and she caught herself at the last moment and was like, no, it was all the Tori (37:28) Mm-hmm. Ian (37:29) women. But I tell you, the producers like the leading questions they asked were like Tori (37:32) Mm-hmm. Ian (37:33) it it was phenomenal. yeah, I mean I think again, like I wish we had a scoreboard. The Tori (37:39) Mm-hmm. Ian (37:40) amount of score they're keeping on like who does what and this is one of those things that as is we work with adolescents and kids, this idea that there's something that we talk a lot about with in counseling and in a psychological space of human behavior, is that a lot of our behaviors, if we look at it from a strictly statistical probability in a very sort of robotic way for humans, humans do not make decisions. based on statistical analysis, right? We do not look at a situation, analyze the probability of an outcome, and then make the decision, right? we make it based on emotion, what we believe, the semantics of a situation, you know, what we believe we have heard, and part of what happens is that we rationalize, right? And what you are describing is and this is again for views, you wanna take something away from this, can I be aware of the way that I rationalize behaviors or things in my life that I want to change or want to do differently, but I come up with reasons why it's okay for me to continue with the negative behavior. And that's all I could think of with these women was like all they're doing is rationalizing. why it's okay for them to engage in behaviors that could be hurtful, harmful, out of context, poor timing, like whatever you want to describe it, and how Tori (39:01) Mm-hmm. Ian (39:03) damaging rationalization can be to relationships because it lacks accountability in every way possible. And again, we all do it, right? We all rationalize you and I have a ton of snacks. I will rationalize why I can have another bag of chips. Tori (39:18) Hmm. Ian (39:19) Right, we all and that's a silly example, but it's true, we all rationalize. I think that's one of the things that stood out for me that was so difficult is just the amount of rationalizing as to why this was okay. Tori (39:33) And a bit of the irony of this song being hypocrisy and bullshit is again like as they're trying to rationalize why it was okay or why it was necessary to be doing it at this time or at this party or again because she said this or we're responding to this. the irony there is then like you can't rationalize something to say why your behavior is okay, but then follow it up with, but it was just a joke. that is also a little bit hypocritical to say it yeah, Ian (40:06) A a little bit. Tori (40:08) or like just to say like this is to call out hypocrisy. I guess if they're gonna say it's about all the women, they can include themselves. But again, it's either a rational behavior or it's a joke. Like it's a rational response. Or everyone just needs to loosen up. So even that to me, it lands flat. the reason it came off so mean is because there wasn't a really a clear cut reason as to like why they were doing that at Bronwyn's party with all of her past friends and stuff. again, you mentioned like if it had been just them or if it had been a different timing or like a different setting, maybe that would have landed much differently. But even Kwai like she's trying to figure out who she is with Lisa and Meredith is like this this wasn't the right way to do this. And so then to say it's just a joke, mmm, lands flat. Ian (41:00) And we I mean, flat yeah, that's a very kind way of putting it. Because we talked about this pre show, right? this again, my only experience is you know speaking about this is working with almost primarily young men and so often you talk with them and they'll say things that like this person said that I'm short or then I'm older, they didn't like this and then if they are like, Hey, I didn't like that or like I feel you know, I feel bad about that, you know, men will commonly come back and say You're being too sensitive, take a joke, learn how to take a joke. And I was shocked that that was the approach here where whenever you are in a situation and somebody is trying to express something to you. Now, Bronwyn didn't necessarily do this verbally, but her nonverbals, her tears and her leaving, were clearly indicating that this was not okay with her. we as humans just need to be aware that like if you're ever in a situation where your first response is to blame somebody's feelings for creating an issue, you need to check yourself. Right? Tori (41:59) Mm. Yeah. Ian (42:01) Like that's where you need to pause and take a break and say, okay, let me like let me look in the mirror and reflect a little bit. We it is it is we cannot blame other people's feelings. for the outcome of a situation. Like I just baffles me that that is a default. And Tori (42:15) Mm-hmm. Ian (42:19) the joke is the ultimate rebuttal to that. You misunderstood something, your feelings are inaccurate to the situation, therefore Tori (42:27) Mm-hmm. Ian (42:28) I don't have to change. Tori (42:29) it's the classic gaslight. That that is just gaslighting. Ian (42:31) my gosh. Tori (42:33) And Meredith even says in her confessional, again, this is like, girl, you are just digging yourself into a bigger hole with this. Is like she goes, Well, if they're upset about it, it's like then it's probably because it speaks to them. Or, you know, like it's the fake kind of apology. Like this is not a real apology when someone says to you like, Well, I'm sorry if you feel that way. Ian (42:55) Mm-hmm. Tori (42:55) Because you're not saying I'm sorry for what I did, I'm sorry for the behavior. You're saying, I'm sorry that your feelings are affecting how you see the situation. and that's exactly what Meredith is doing in that. Like if you're upset Ian (43:08) Yeah, yeah. Tori

(43:09) by it, like, well, that's not my fault. and yes, it's it's the gaslighting of blaming feelings versus just accepting how the person feels. Ian (43:22) Absolutely. Or that maybe I could have misstepped. Tori (43:26) Right, right. That's that's even further, yeah. Ian (43:28) so this is like this is my thing. Okay. So first of all, you know me well enough to know that I am not somebody who thrives as being a center of attention. I I you know, I prefer to be sort of, you know, on on the sidelines and the idea Of going to somebody's party and performing not once but twice mortified Tori (43:50) Yeah. Ian (43:51) me to the core that, like, how could somebody do that and not feel some sort of shame or embarrassment? And number two, this this opinion does not reflect the opinion of our producer or podcast. If you're gonna come with a disc track, it's gotta be good. Like if you're gonna pull something bold like that. Tori (44:08) Yeah, let it out, Ian. Let it out. Let it out. Ian (44:10) if if you're gonna pull something bold, it's gotta be good. That was not Tori (44:15) They were really proud of it though. Ian (44:16) how? Like I d I'm not look, I am not musically inclined, I can't hold a note, I don't know anything about music theory. I like I don't know anything about DJing. Tori (44:27) They really thought that was a smash. And again, yeah, Ian (44:29) How do you get? Tori (44:30) to come back. I literally wrote round two, yikes, because they knew that Bronwyn was upset and that no one was feeling this, like this is not the appropriate time. And then they came and did an encore. Ian (44:43) It's rare that you can transport from a couch in North Carolina to whatever, three, four months ago in California and feel the amount of embarrassment that in Tori (44:55) Mm, the second yeah. Ian (44:56) the room it was almost became its own entity, the amount of embarrassment and discomfort. you could see it on everybody's face. And like for whatever reason, that reinforcement, right? So this is like the there's positive reinforcement there. Not because the reaction is positive, but because they're gaining something from it, but it was the negative reaction. It's like they were feeding off of it. And I I just Tori (45:17) Yeah, yeah. Ian (45:18) cannot wrap my head around that. Like I just I really can. Tori (45:24) Yeah, they certainly doubled down on it. And again, I feel like that was just them continuing to rationalize it. And like, you know, I like I love all of these women, but I've gotta say it just did not play well. Like Lisa my gosh. Like she really has like this confessional where she does this like maniacal laugh at one point. She's like, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I was like, Ian (45:47) It sounds like Cruella de Ville from the Disney movies! Tori (45:50) my gosh, girl, like if you I mean yes, everyone has their own opinions. And again, I have opinions on each of these women individually. And generally like I still like Lisa, but with the gaslighting of take a joke and then the evil laugh and then the encore, I'm like, my gosh, this is the doubling down of making someone feel bad. It just reads so mean. Ian (46:15) Yeah, and yeah, it it was I I could not believe I look I was like watching it and I was like, okay, when when are the verses coming? I'm Tori (46:25) No. Ian (46:26) like over here really analyzing this in a way that was way overthinking it. yeah, I I just there was so many things about that situ I mean again, I I find it hard to put myself in somebody's shoes where if I'm in any situation and I see somebody Walk out of a room. I don't care if it's their party, I don't care if it's a session. I don't I don't like I don't care where it is. They walk out of the room in tears. I'm doing something to change what's going on and I just cannot reconcile the sort of complicit nature of just being like, Well, not only are we gonna, you know, just roll with that, we're gonna double down and give the people what they want? Like I Yeah, Tori (47:09) An encore, right? Ian (47:11) I don't I don't get it. Tori (47:14) I know it's crazy too because I think that the way that it was set up too is there was obviously a regular bar outside Ian (47:20) Mm-hmm. Tori (47:20) where people were hearing the music, but then there was Bronwin's party. And so the people Ian (47:23) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tori (47:24) at the bar didn't know what was going on and so they start singing along and they took that as fuel. Like they're like, The people love it, like let's go. And it's like, but if you look at the room, yeah. I Ian (47:35) I missed that piece. I miss that piece. Okay, okay. Tori (47:38) when people were singing along with it, I don't know if they were actually at Bronwyn's party or not. But eventually in the episode like at the end, the other women are telling the people around like, don't sing along to this because this Ian (47:48) Yeah. Don't sing, yeah. Tori (47:49) is actually hurting Bronwyn's feelings. Ian (47:51) Yeah. Tori (47:52) But people not knowing that and singing along, maybe it was the Ian (47:55) Yeah, I mean Tori (47:56) guests of the party, but they took that again as like fuel. Like we should keep going. Ian (48:01) Well, and it's like, when you do things like that, you know, I think for me, the general assumption is that you're gonna run it by the person before you do it. So if you're a guest at a party, you're like, I'm assuming that Bronwyn's in on it, like that this is something that would be okay or that would fly. And you know, I think that is Right. Tori (48:18) Right. Like all the women were like, Did you know about this? Yeah. Ian (48:22) But I think that's a general assumption, right? When somebody does something that bold The general assumption is that people are in on this. There's permission, there's consent for this, there's a clear, I'm okay with this, it's definitely hard to blame the people who are chaining to it.

if you didn't know the implications Tori (48:38) Right. Well yeah. Ian (48:40) to it, right? But yeah, I guess it I just a wild Tori (48:44) Yeah. It was a lot. Ian (48:46) episode. it was so hard to watch and I am Tori (48:47) Hard to watch. Well, enjoyable to watch, actually. It wasn't really that hard, but like crin like s the second hand embarrassment, I guess. But I'm still eating it up, yeah. Ian (48:52) It was so hard to watch. Yeah, this is the other thing we're kinda interested to see where this goes is like the notches just keep like nobody's being like, you know what, this is not gonna end well. Somebody's really So so you're Tori (49:08) no, that's not gonna no, no, let let's be real. No. Ian (49:12) helping me check all of my expectations. Tori (49:14) they're leveling up in in how they get back or or like you said, keeping score or whatever. So it they're keeping Ian (49:21) That yeah. Tori (49:22) that tally. So they're gonna keep ratcheting it up, yeah. So that wraps up this episode. Next week, it looks like Mary's gonna come back and I do have a feeling Ian (49:30) Mm-hmm. Tori (49:31) Mary is gonna put them in their place. I know the so I think I think next week in a different way is gonna be very emotionally charged. Each episode is emotionally charged, but Mary's gonna get in there and and maybe maybe bring some of that humility back. we started this last week. I have my funniest clip of the episode. Do you Ian (49:51) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tori (49:52) have one that stood out to you? 'Cause I wanna know what you thought of mine. Ian (49:57) I don't have anything that specifically stood out to me. Like the one liners were funny, but I was so wrapped up in the in the diss track and the anticipation of it that I was like What do you have though? Please. Please Tori (50:07) Okay, I'll share with you my funniest clip of this episode. I thought maybe you would appreciate this one, was when Angie is getting seasick and like I feel for her, right? But when Ian (50:19) Yeah. Tori (50:20) the producers showed the slow motion seasickness like segue, because you can see it kind of like hitting Angie, and so they start to play like all the women dancing like in slow motion, and then it cuts to like Angie is actually sick. Ian (50:34) That was hilarious. Yes, that was hilarious. Tori (50:36) And then when Angie doesn't go to the 70s party because she's so sick, but Ian (50:38) Yeah. Yeah. Tori (50:40) she calls the women and tries to talk to them like on speakerphone and they all start arguing about the best care advice to give her. And she's like half awake, half asleep, and she's like, Are you guys even still talking to me? And she ends up just hanging up and but the women are still like arguing over like if she should be having ginger mail or electrolytes or turning the air down or whatever. I I was laughing pretty hard at that one too. Just poor Angie, like it's sad she's sick, but that was really funny funny editing. Yeah, it's like, o okay. Like, yeah, if you're mean, then I'm gonna give you bad adv like what's the contrast of that? Like just get be sick? Yeah. Yeah, that too. Right. Yeah, drink ginger ale. Okay. Yeah, yeah, she saved her. Yes. So we'll see what happens next. Yep. And you are there. Yeah, let's be real. Back checking, right? For you to be annoyed. That that means you're invested. You have that strongly strong opinions.