Пълният препис на Enduring Otherwise

people whether they're Muslims, whether they're 71 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:49.600 non Muslims, or they're you know, Indonesian or not. When 72 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.399 mostly at that time, at least when I start my 73 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:59.079 research around fifteen years ago, the question that people ask 74 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.839 is like when when they heard then I'm a Muslim 75 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:08.360 and I'm queer, as this kind of stereotypical or stereotyping 76 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.879 question asking like, oh, how is that for you? Like 77 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:16.519 aren't you aren't you experiencing some kind of conflict or 78 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:22.000 inner conflict? And this very question, rather than trying to 79 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:27.240 answer it myself, is basically the question that I go 80 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:31.600 around with with when I meet the the protagonists or 81 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:37.079 the interlocutors in my filmwork. Basically of course, and not 82 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.759 in a way like not as a kind of like 83 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:49.959 a horrible question about this conflict, but actually I observe 84 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:54.360 or I participate in a situation where this conflicting situation 85 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.160 came up, and basically how they deal with it. 86 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.920 Yeah, And that's probably interesting part of if anything, I 87 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:04.639 think that that that that being participant kind of helps 88 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:07.120 you and that the people you're talking with a sense 89 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:08.720 that that this is this is for you isn't some 90 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.560 sort of abstract question but somebody you also have had 91 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.199 to wrestle with yourself about this completing you know, relationship 92 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:19.399 between religious values and sort of personal ethics and and 93 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.319 how these two fit together and how you live. 94 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:30.199 Yeah, because yes and no, because I think one one 95 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:36.839 additional dimension that that also actually it's become actually a 96 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.560 key Like my main approach uh is what I call 97 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:48.439 as effective ethnography. So it's very much looking at like 98 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:55.040 the emotional life, the feel like the various types of feelings, 99 00:07:55.319 --> 00:08:00.639 atmospheres that that that emerge in their life in the 100 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:05.160 context of Muslim square and transporlt making which actually allows 101 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:11.720 me hm how to say it. Like in Indonesia we 102 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.040 have this term when when people you don't have to 103 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.959 be close friends, but sometimes when people met and they 104 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:24.680 have I don't know, some kind of problems which is 105 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:31.800 more like caused by emotional conflict and so on, Uh, 106 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.679 they would kind of pour out their hearts out. This 107 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.600 is the term like tudahan Hatti to pour out on 108 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:45.399 one's heart basically is it is a way of interacting, 109 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:51.320 interacting usually in intimate settings. But this is also something 110 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:55.840 that I adopt as as a way of talking with 111 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:01.399 the interlocutors in a way that I don't interview it. 112 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:06.080 I don't prepare, you know, questions in advance and then 113 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.759 go to see them and ask questions, but rather just 114 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:18.480 fully becoming a listener basically, Yeah, and by listener meaning 115 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:26.799 like to really listen to. And somehow there is a need, 116 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:32.639 a dire need in a community to be able to 117 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:36.600 be heard or to be listened to. And some of 118 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:41.360 the stories, although maybe to say it flows naturally is 119 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:47.159 a bit simplifying, I would rather say that there's enough 120 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.279 closeness between us or report between us that allows that 121 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:56.440 makes them comfortable enough to tell basically their life stories, 122 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.879 their what what, what they're thinking, what they're dealing with, 123 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.799 using this so called churanhatty to an extent that sometimes, 124 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:10.879 because I work with different communities, they would tap my 125 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.399 shoulder and call me, hey, what are you doing? Are 126 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:18.159 you not doing anything? Can we talk? You know, like 127 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.279 let's let's have a tough because the our last stuff 128 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:25.200 has been very nice and and and yeah, so it's 129 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.639 becoming almost like for my part it is like a 130 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:32.480 service to listen to their stories. But also the tricky 131 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.279 partook because also this is part of research, and of 132 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:37.240 course they are all aware about this. 133 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.279 Might be an aspect and maybe maybe sort of speculating 134 00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:45.679 here where they start to treat you as like that 135 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:50.039 like nice slightly older brother that people wish they had, 136 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:51.720 that they could talk to, that they didn't have in 137 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.360 their own families, or like just you. 138 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.960 Know, mm hmmm, I

mean, of course not everyone. Yeah, 139 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.919 I went, I think out of I met quite a 140 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.519 few people in during my film work. I'll explain later 141 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:09.440 in which which locations, but uh, and some of them 142 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:11.840 are new locations. One of them is actually a new 143 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.960 location and the other two is uh. The new location 144 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.320 is in ache Uh, which is in the northernmost part 145 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.440 of Sumatra and Indonesia, and then in Jio Jakarta where 146 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:30.039 actually this is my chosen hometown, and in Jakarta, which 147 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:34.639 is the city where I'm born or where I grew up. 148 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:41.279 But still even of course, especially in ache is not 149 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:46.360 easy to to because the situation there is already very 150 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:52.480 difficult for sexual and gender minorities because they have their 151 00:11:52.559 --> 00:12:00.080 own legal system since a while since Yeah, there's a 152 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.240 long history of conflict and natural disaster the tsunami that 153 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:08.360 changed the whole landscape there, including legal ones, and they 154 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:16.960 implementary allow basically since two thousand first in first being 155 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:19.519 discussed two thousand and five, and I think being installed 156 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.279 in thousand and six, which make it very difficult for 157 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:27.000 for for sexual and general minorities even just to be 158 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.720 to be just to be there basically, So when I 159 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.360 came there with my research topic, with my research idea, 160 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:38.600 of course not a lot of people are welcoming to that. 161 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:45.320 But when they do, then the relationship is kind of 162 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.639 what translates into the book basically. But when when you 163 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:53.519 said it, whether they they they treat me as a 164 00:12:53.600 --> 00:13:02.320 brother or a sibling, I guess it's more about they 165 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:08.960 don't have anyone to really listen to. Like of course 166 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:12.120 they have friends and maybe families and even partners, but 167 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:17.120 sometimes actually the problems that they're having is actually with 168 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:22.159 the people who are around them and with me, I guess, 169 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:27.559 because I'm also a stranger in some way, but but 170 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:32.360 a weird stranger who goes to all the way, you know, 171 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.200 to to to listen to their stories. For them is 172 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.480 also something.

Yeah, they also make take use of it. 173 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.720 They make then they try to gain as much from 174 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:45.440 from the encounter as I do. 175 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.440 I mean, we're a stranger, but we're who also shows 176 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:52.639 up in the book on people's motorcycles. At times or 177 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.639 like late nights, discussions at the salon or at the 178 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:59.879 at the coffee shop or other places places feel more 179 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:00.720 part of the world. 180 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.519 Yeah, exactly, right, when you go to a bar and 181 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:06.799 you're speaking to strangers and then you're more open and 182 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:10.559 you're more generous in your stories rather than when you're 183 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:15.200 talking with people around you. Yeah, are you're intimate with 184 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.960 mm hmmm. So yeah, I wouldn't even I wouldn't even 185 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.120 frame my relationship with them as friends or you know, 186 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.320 or siblings or brothers, because that's what I am. I'm 187 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.519 there as a researcher, and I think most of them 188 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:38.039 fully realize of my what my role is. Yeah, mhm. 189 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.559 We talked about a little bit about the title. I 190 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:45.399 think it's quite evocative idea about and and during otherwise, 191 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.519 so it's not it's not necessarily very heroic sounding, but 192 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.120 that's not the point. It's almost like finding ways to 193 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:57.559 almost like get on despite great adversity or how how 194 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.919 do you how do you? How do you think about it? 195 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:00.399 I'm like, what is it come from? 196 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:00.639 For you? 197 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.200 From different places, but like from for for the more 198 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:12.440 like conceptual I as. I was inspired by the works 199 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:19.600 of Povinelli about late liberalism and endurance, also the work 200 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.600 of abdu ma Ale Simone, who talks about improvised life 201 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:31.679 and how in the urban global South, endurance has become 202 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:36.960 a way of not only surviving but also kind of 203 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:46.000 tapping into unlived or unrealized potential potentialities, right, because there's 204 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:50.519 a waiting involved there, but also there is some gain 205 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.039 in the process of this enduring or waiting for something 206 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:01.519 to happen, and only it is on the other hand, 207 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:05.519 for for the otherwise. Actually, I'm inspired by the work 208 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:14.320 of Ashan Crawley, who with black study researcher scholars whose 209 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:23.039 work was or is about for their particular term is 210 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:31.799 from his book Black Pantacostal Breath, about the the breathing 211 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.440 as a space of possibility, right, and then he defines 212 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:42.320 otherwise there as something that this multiple possibilities that already 213 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:47.480 exists in our lives is just not being tapped into, 214 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:52.799 or it's not just seen as possibilities as such. And 215 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.919 this reminds me all the way go to this whole 216 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:02.639 form of pre pre prefigurative politics and how basically work 217 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.839 with what is around us when we're thinking about, you know, change, 218 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:13.920 when we're thinking about transformation, we're not starting from this 219 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.200 kind of fixed destination, but rather than working with the 220 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.480 relationship that we have, the materialities that that that that 221 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:28.680 is sometimes become resources, but sometimes becomes a challenge. 222 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:33.319 Right, So let me see if I if I understand 223 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:37.519 saying the important thing here is not here's a narrow 224 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.000 nel salon. It's almost like, what does this nail salon 225 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.440 allow in terms of world making? How it operates means 226 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:50.240 material support or a safe a safe space of refuge 227 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.279 or of course of friendship. It's more like what it 228 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:55.599 does for the people there, rather than what it is. 229 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.440 Yeah, yeah, I mean this is a hair salons the 230 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:04.839 correct I had run by transwomen in actual basically, this 231 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.519 is what Steven was telling about in my book, which 232 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:13.680 is run by Maya, one of the main protagonists. And 233 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.960 uh yeah, at the beginning she made theo or basically 234 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:22.279 she created the Solon hair salon of course as a 235 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.160 means to survive right to to to have a livelihood. 236 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.759 But also this is not just decision that came or 237 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.480 I have some money or I have some investors and 238 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.039 make hair salon. But this is something decision that came 239 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:46.200 after going through live so yeah, so so like filled 240 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:50.559 with violence. Basically she was a sex worker. At some 241 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:55.279 point she was

abused by her family members. She moved 242 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:58.680 different to different cities. She works in different hair salons 243 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.680 as well, and when she came back to her hometown, 244 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.160 she felt that she wanted to make a hair salon 245 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:12.599 that let basically doesn't reproduce all the other violent experience 246 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:17.680 that that that that she she experienced before. And so 247 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.240 that's why it's from the outside it looks like a 248 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:28.799 normal running hair salon and the the workers there are 249 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.200 mainly transfomen because in in Indonesia in general, UH, it 250 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:38.480 is difficult for trans people to to have like this 251 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:43.960 kind of like stable office job. So the only options 252 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.160 UH that they have if they have skills, then they 253 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.799 would either work or own a hair salon or maybe 254 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:56.160 work in fashion design. But those who are who have 255 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.759 no access at all, than a lot of them working 256 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:05.920 as as a sweet busker right singing for money from 257 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.599 door to door or sex workers. So these are mainly 258 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:15.720 the forror uh forms of employment that that could access. 259 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:21.000 So having this salon is as a place for livelihood, 260 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.640 not just for her but also for her community. But 261 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:31.720 because actually, as I told you, it's a special location 262 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.200 in a way that it's impossible for these women to 263 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:41.440 be in public uh more than they need to because 264 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:47.480 they're subjected to ridicule, subject to there's a moral police 265 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:52.480 there who who And then also they're kind of trying 266 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.519 to blend in with other women wearing his job right. 267 00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:01.640 But also this also creates another insult of them trying 268 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:07.119 to you know, play with religion and so on. So 269 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:12.559 what initially started as a hairsalon slowly becomes this kind 270 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:17.359 of what you said, this community. I wouldn't say safe space, 271 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.880 but this is because exactly by hanging out there on 272 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:26.319 a daily basis, it's also made it made it made 273 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.200 it easier for them to be targeted like more by 274 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:36.279 moral police or police officers who maybe doesn't want to 275 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:42.599 arrest them, but you know, like for getting some

cigarette 276 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.720 money and so on, just to you know, like, so 277 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:52.599 they have this place which they they can interact. But 278 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:58.119 also it's quite quite fragile the safety mm hmm. 279 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.319 One thing interesting is so, for instance, you talked a 280 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.599 little bit about and you're talking about this in the book, 281 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.160 how like there was political changes I think you said 282 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.160 starting in two thousand and six, which was the nine 283 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:13.920 that allowed the introduction of shrial law. But then you 284 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.519 also remember, correct with the reading, like these outbursts of 285 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:23.039 let's say more like kind of quasi vigilante community policing 286 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.599 don't happen immediately. They happen at different points in times. 287 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:31.920 But I'm not clear like what what like what causes 288 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:32.880 that or it. 289 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.240 Was just. 290 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:40.240 I mean different different because I think on one important 291 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:44.680 turning point was the nineteen ninety eight reform Indonesia where 292 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:54.319 basically after Suharto, the authority Energyma Suharto, they basically managed 293 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:59.799 to silence all sides of society from the right and leaf, 294 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.079 from the Islamis and from human rights movement, from environmentalists 295 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:11.799 to women movement. And when the head is chopped off, right, 296 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.359 but so Arto is gone, basically there's this kind of 297 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.519 window of openness, right, everyone was like, oh yeah, let's 298 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:29.119 bring back Marxist left, this knowledge that has been censored 299 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:34.240 for such a long time. Let's bring back conversation around 300 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.319 gender and sexuality that is not you know, following the 301 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:43.039 models that is made by the state and for the 302 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.440 Islamist also there were there were for a long time 303 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:54.559 being oppressed. They're being the politicized basically, which doesn't there 304 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.319 so they didn't have a lot of channels to express 305 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.640 their opinions and voices as well. So with this opening, 306 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:05.119 what happened is then you have a lot of groups 307 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.519 from left as well as from the human rights from 308 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.400 queer rights are forming mobilizing. But at the same time 309 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:18.960 also people from the conservative side become more active right 310 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.359 And since then then basically you have this kind of 311 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:31.680 continuous frictions in public spaces. But I think one of 312 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.000 the I said one of them, because there's a new 313 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:41.480 development that I will also share later. Another turning point 314 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:46.279 was in twenty sixteen when there was a time I 315 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:53.160 remember where a lot of Western country start to embrace 316 00:24:55.119 --> 00:25:02.119 legalized same sex marriage basically and this also translate into 317 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:08.160 new circulations, but also you know, opinions debates in social media. 318 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:14.839 I think one of the I remember when US legalized 319 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:19.160 same sex marriage in twenty fifteen, there was a filter 320 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:25.559 in Facebook right when people can use rainbow filter as 321 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:32.559 their profile pictures and I think a lot of because 322 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:35.359 Indonesia have a lot of Facebook users at that time, 323 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.680 and a lot of people are using it, and that 324 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:44.000 kind of surprise the conservative they didn't realize actually how 325 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:49.839 many how much support there is for if not allegedly 326 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.680 queer themselves, you know, for for same sex, legalizing same 327 00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:01.759 sex basically, and this creates a lot of pushback from 328 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:07.359 from the conservative, one being at that time the Minister 329 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:16.759 of Education and Research who tweeted that he he's banning 330 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:23.160 uh student Queer Initiative in University of Indonesia and Jakarta. 331 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.400 And because because of this statement, of course a lot 332 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.960 of human rights activists, core activists kind of respond back. 333 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:39.079 But actually the counter response from the conservative is much moresive, massive, 334 00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:44.480 and it translates into physical spaces as well. There's kind 335 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.640 of like you see in different big cities in Indonesia 336 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:56.240 and like banners, posters with slurs, with anti LGBT slurs 337 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:01.759 basically and campaign and yeah, and then and then it 338 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:07.039 kind of it's not gone, but it's kind of like 339 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:15.000 because the impact continues consept like sequent like sporadically through 340 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:20.000 police rates also vigilanti raids to housings, to fall on us, 341 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:29.640 to parties, and actually just last month, the heat is 342

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:38.359 cranked up again with the Indonesian Lama console. Oh so sorry, 343 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.079 my story is long because this is also a long history. 344 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:46.640 So recently Indonesia adopt or changed their pinal code. Right, Initially, 345 00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:54.359 before homosexuality was not was was was not criminalized basically, 346 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.079 but since twenty twenty two we have a new penal code. 347 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:05.880 Still homosexuality is not penalized, but same sorry sex outside 348 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:10.960 of marriage is so meaning Stephen, if you are not married, 349 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:17.880 then you are hesterosexual. You're still going to be criminalized 350 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:23.119 based on this new penal code. Right. But also and 351 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:27.640 this is like an umbrella clause that the women also 352 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:32.559 same sex same sex sexuality is also criminalized because it's 353 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.880 outside of marriage or same sex marriage is not legal 354 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.359 in Indonesia, So it's kind of like this whole logic. 355 00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:47.880 Yea twenty twenty two we have that, and apparently the 356 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.839 conservative or the Islamic console is not happy that there 357 00:28:52.920 --> 00:29:00.680 is no actual clause that criminalize LGBT. So as Pride 358 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:06.559 season recently again activate the whole social media scene. Uh, 359 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.319 the Ulama consil come up with a plan to now 360 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.079 or they're working together with the parliament member to to 361 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.279 to to to criminal to come up with the new 362 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:25.160 law basically against lgbt which UH too little that we 363 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:29.839 know they're actually they they have a legal basis for 364 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.559 that because our new president, the military general or the 365 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:42.440 former military general probable in their National Defense Scheme under 366 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:51.799 presidential regulation define different national threats and UH divided into 367 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:57.279 military and non military threats, and with non military threats, 368 00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:05.200 for instance, atheism consider as non military threats. Online gambling 369 00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:09.599 is considered as non military threats, and LGBTQ culture is 370 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:14.279 also considered as non military threats. And because of this 371 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:19.279 is this official document. Now more and more like conservative 372 00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:23.599 institutions are tapping into that, and then they're really really 373 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:29.559 trying to push now to change the whole yeah situation. 374 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:34.160 I mean, that's kind of evilly clever that you're yoking 375 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.920 yoking together things which could cause actual harm, like the 376 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.359 abjective gambling to something which is just not harmful at all. 377 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:44.240 But it still reminds me of the way someone like 378 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.039 David Gribber, borrowing from bits and talks about the idea 379 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.920 of skisble genesis, where you define yourself against the other 380 00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:53.200 that you're not. So so this is bad here because 381 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:58.000 this is also of spending time in Singapore and talking 382 00:30:58.079 --> 00:30:59.880 to queer friends there and the way they talk about 383 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:04.559 how how oftentimes conservatives in Singapore with Frank quitness as 384 00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:08.319 being the sort of like this Western import and then 385 00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:11.279 we're like, well, no, actually the thing that's important was 386 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:13.640 not queerness, but was actually homophobia. 387 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:20.519 And gender binary. Yeah, yeah, because of this binary. Actually, 388 00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:22.960 I think the core of it is actually binary, that 389 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:27.759 that that really tried to define something that that is 390 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:32.759 in sexual Sorry, in Southeast Asia or Global South is 391 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.160 much more fluid, right, you have different different roles and 392 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:41.200 positional at positionality you don't have. I mean, you can 393 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:44.559 be a woman, a man, a trans woman, transman even 394 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:50.160 like other kind of configurations of gender and sexuality that 395 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.960 basically are being impovourished by this model of gender binary. 396 00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.799 And then comes to the hierarchy in it, right, So 397 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.400 the masculine is kind of the highest in the hierarchy 398 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.920 in comparison to the feminine. And where patriarchy comes in, 399 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:15.640 where homophobia comes in, frotophobia comes in as well. So, yeah, 400 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.119 homophobia is a Western important I agree with you, it. 401 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:26.000 Does seem a certain way, which what what's underlying kind 402 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:30.720 of anxiety that makes Frga discussire is almost like fluidity 403 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.720 is bad. Stay in a box, whatever the box is, 404 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.039 just stay there and no no, no, you can't move 405 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:37.599 you keep you over here as well. No no, no, no, 406 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:39.799 stay in your thing. Mm hmm. 407 00:32:40.680 -->

00:32:43.119 Yeah, that's that's the thing. That's why I also I 408 00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:50.359 like this concept ambivalence a lot, right, Like, because people 409 00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:54.559 always the question is always either this or that right? 410 00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:59.319 But how about both this and that right? People could 411 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:05.200 be have much more dimensions than two or even just 412 00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:10.839 one right. And with ambivalence, I guess it's something that 413 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:18.720 because it describes the reality of the relationships and attachments 414 00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.960 that we have, Like some of our attachments, our desires 415 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:28.400 can be contradictory, but it doesn't mean that we're not, 416 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:37.079 you know, desiring both right, because people rarely experience things 417 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:42.920 as purely positive or negative ways. They can love their 418 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:47.119 families while feeling hurt by family expectations. They can value 419 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:52.200 religious traditions while questioning certain interpretations. So you have all 420 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:58.119 these sites in the human experience, and why do you choose? 421 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.599 Why do you have to choose between those two. 422 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.480 Right, I suppose that's what I was trying to get 423 00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:09.239 out my brief perhaps not well thought through much at 424 00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:13.199 the beginning, about but understanding similar issues from being raised 425 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.360 Catholic and the moment there is that like you might say, 426 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.760 if a religion or social world is condemning of your 427 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:24.599 desires or your reality or your living, just leave. But 428 00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:28.760 like just saying just leave kind of glasses over the 429 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:34.400 fact that that it created a world and expected and affects. 430 00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:39.239 Then one is basically possible to just magically exit suddenly 431 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.000 two one of those things you still value in that world. 432 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:46.679 H I do, I do have one of the plug 433 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.760 whenis Ana actually she identified herself as an ex Muslim 434 00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:55.599 quare like a former so she left Islam practically. But again, 435 00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.440 like if you read her story, even after the deciding 436 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:05.320 to leave the things that she finds problematic, there are 437 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:08.800 still many other problems that she's dealing with as a 438 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.880 human as from like a spiritual perspective, but also from 439 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:19.079 like relationship perspective. It's almost, Yeah, that's what I think, 440 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:25.159 that's what makes life possible to to to to be 441 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:29.199 in these imperfect situations with at the same time always 442 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.119 imagining different possibilities. 443 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.639 Did you happen to come across any sort of let's say, 444 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:40.920 like parts of the Muslim community, like institutionally that were 445 00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:45.840 more accepting or welcoming of query trans folts. 446 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:51.159 So maybe just like that, just to give a context 447 00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:54.599 of time, when I start these research, it was two thousand, 448 00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.480 I mean, I have this idea of doing or I 449 00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:02.000 apply here and there for my PhD proposal. Since twenty ten, 450 00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:05.880 I think, so at that time there wasn't that many 451 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:13.960 So but slowly, as I start doing my research, more 452 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:20.360 and more initiative are being organized. In Jukja Karta, for instance, 453 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:26.199 you have in Indonesia, or in Islamic tradition, you have 454 00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:29.800 a so called Pasan trend, which is basically a religious 455 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:35.039 a school to learn about Islam. Right. And also this 456 00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:43.719 is a very popular educational practice in whole Indonesia where 457 00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:48.199 people either fully go on through the Pasan trend system 458 00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:52.360 or they combine it with formal education, so they would 459 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:57.039 go to circular school during the day and then study 460 00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:01.559 study in the Pasan trend during the evening and also 461 00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:07.880 spend the night there. But the thing is it's very gendered, 462 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.440 meaning only male students go to the male Centran and 463 00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:16.039 then the female students go to the female center. And 464 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.639 this doesn't give a lot of space to trans people, 465 00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:26.760 right because so in Jojja actually they initiate the pasandrain 466 00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:34.239 for for for transfer for trans women, inviting also clerics 467 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:41.800 who are quite progressive. I would say, uh. And because 468 00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:45.519 there are more and more progressive interpretations of the Qur'an 469 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.360 because basically in Islam, the thing, the very thing that 470 00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:54.920 that made homosexuality a big no no is there is 471 00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:58.920 a there's a the story of lot right, I think 472 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:04.159 you have it also in Bible uh. And with the 473 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:10.159 progressive interpretation

is basically the the frame uh, the the 474 00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:15.760 city of Sodom, right, Uh, The inhabitant of Sodom was 475 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:20.519 not punished by God because of their committing homosexuality, but 476 00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:27.239 because they were basically practicing a lot of uh inhuman 477 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:33.280 like slavery, uh, sex without consent and so on. So 478 00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:39.119 so this initiative for instance, and then actually when I 479 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.480 a few years back, there is a very open transman 480 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:51.079 uh also cleric uh his name is Amar Alpha Car 481 00:38:52.159 --> 00:39:01.760 who uh initiate uh Quranic uh reading online or queer 482 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:10.760 people again with more empowering, more affirmative interpretation of Quran. 483 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.440 So yeah, it's becoming more and more, I would say, 484 00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:18.639 especially among the younger generations, but not during the time 485 00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:20.559 when I did my research, unfortunately. 486 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:27.440 I mean, it was not so surprising that when world's changed, 487 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:30.480 they had to change either very slowly or all at once. 488 00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:34.360 So maybe you only saw a little bits of things 489 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:35.239 happening here and there. 490 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:41.920 Yeah, I managed to capture the moment when Yeah, this 491 00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:45.599 transitional moment, I guess, because I think what happened with 492 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:51.360 internet and information is I think more and more people 493 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.559 like you have a lot of this kind of initiative 494 00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:58.760 as well globally in South Africa, in the US, right, 495 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.559 so people catch up with that quite quickly. 496 00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:10.679 Mhm. Oh, this is gonna be a strange question. But like, 497 00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:16.159 how do the spaces that you're you're visiting from trans 498 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:20.320 folks relate to other kinds of say marginal spaces that 499 00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:24.920 might be talking about like like punk kids or like 500 00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.360 weird artists, or is there any sort of overlap between 501 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.119 the world or they takenally separate. 502 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:35.239 It's different in different cities. I think the capital of 503 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:40.800 Mandace there's a lot of punk kids communities as well, 504 00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:45.199 but also they are actually quite very marginalized as well 505 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.760 from the moral perspective, from the ria perspective. So there 506 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:57.719 are quite a few I wouldn't say coalition, but like 507 00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:02.280 they they they hang out together sometimes here and then, 508 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:07.599 but not really like at that time. Also, there's not 509 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.039 really more mixed organizing. I would say, again, this is 510 00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:16.960 a different with the current times because they are more 511 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:23.599 and more punk slash queer. They spaces emerging in Georgia 512 00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:30.199 in Jakarta. But during that time, I think again because 513 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.440 it was a transitional time, it felt like each are 514 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:39.000 fighting on their own, you know, like because they're all. Yeah, 515 00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:43.360 intersectionality at that time wasn't so much being a thing, 516 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:49.440 So people still struggle in silos. Basically, I would say, 517 00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:54.800 even among the gay men and the trans women, they're 518 00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:59.400 quite clear separation and sometimes they're also quite some conflict 519 00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:03.079 there due to the gay man doesn't want to be 520 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.519 seen around trans women because they want they don't want 521 00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:11.440 to be you know, found out in a way, and 522 00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:16.159 the trans women doesn't like the guts of the gay 523 00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:18.960 men because they think there are arrogant and so on 524 00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.639 and so forth. So these little kind of fractions happening 525 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.960 that to an extent that actually in Actually I had 526 00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.280 to do my field work with the gay men in 527 00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.920 one town and with the trans woman in another town. 528 00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:35.320 They're one hour away from each other, but still like 529 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:40.480 American effort that so then there's no kind of because 530 00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:46.320 gossip and rumors, this is always something about the queer 531 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.599 trans I think in any community it has become the 532 00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.440 bane of like in every interaction. 533 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:58.400 Basically, I think this is the one thing doesn't think 534 00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:03.199 well is recognized with there's well of of of of gossip, 535 00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:08.199 which is category sociologically aren't just throwaway but actually are 536 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:12.239 important key parts of how communities bind themselves. 537 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:17.280 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But also what is interesting a 538 00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:23.920 lot of in this rumoring and gossiping, some of them 539 00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:28.960 also use it as a as a space to kind 540 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:35.440 of practice their moral judgment. I would say, So there's 541 00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:38.280 a lot of moralizing, so a lot

of borrowing from 542 00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:45.480 religious religious teachings and values and sometimes also othering that 543 00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.800 is happening within the community. And this is what I'm 544 00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:52.400 also I wanted to say this earlier about how a 545 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.719 lot of members of the community that I saw or 546 00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:02.360 that I met also felt that they were born as 547 00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:05.960 Muslim first, and then they realized that they become queer 548 00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:09.599 or they're queer or their trends right, So for them 549 00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:18.039 having kind of like religious identity is also as as 550 00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:26.920 important as having sexual and gender identity, because myself also 551 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:31.800 included I I'm not a practicing Muslim. Now I'm a 552 00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:36.239 nominal Muslim. I'm an id based Muslim aka Muslim in Indonesia. 553 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:43.119 But but I grew up, you know, with religious teachings 554 00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:47.800 from not only from schools, but also in in in 555 00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.039 daily practice at home from my parents. So this is 556 00:44:51.119 --> 00:45:00.400 something that felt. Yeah, sometimes it's a bit for others 557 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.760 who who who who have the opinion, yeah, you can 558 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.320 actually leave a religion, but actually, in the context of innesia, 559 00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:11.639 I don't think it's sponssible. I mean, of course you 560 00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:14.880 can convert always, but there's so many, so much social 561 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:20.280 sanction that comes with it, if not legal sanction. So 562 00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:23.360 being convert or being at this as I told you 563 00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:28.679 it was written in the regulation that it's it's right, 564 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:30.559 mm hmm. 565 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.440 I mean, there's there's a certain sense which the convert 566 00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:38.400 is always going to be kind of a stranger, let's say, 567 00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:41.320 the most the most social aspects of the world that 568 00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:44.840 you're brought into because because you're you're joining it rather 569 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:46.719 than have always been there. 570 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.760 Yeah yeah, I mean it's different. Like in Malaysia, even 571 00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:55.440 it's it's it's illegal to convert, like so the law 572 00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:00.760 says that every Malay are Muslims, so if they are 573 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:03.960 born in Malayan family, then they have to be Muslim 574 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:07.639 with no possibilities of moving to other religion. And Indonesia 575 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:11.519 is less strict than that, but still there's a lot 576 00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:14.760 of risk that come. 577 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:18.440 I mean, we could get into into a very interesting 578 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:23.599 discussion about the very weird history of British colonial categories 579 00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:28.159 around racist religion like Fredistan. Correctly, the British Empire used Malay. 580 00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:32.960 They basically mean any dark skinned Muslim person. So first 581 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.079 in seventeenth century British Empire code, a person from Saudi 582 00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:40.280 Arabia was Malay m M, which of course is completely 583 00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:47.280 nonsensical because what happened that's thousands of miles away. 584 00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:55.800 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. In Malaysia it is kind 585 00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:59.280 of continued until now this kind of racial racial segregation. 586 00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:05.599 Indonesia doesn't have that because we although we are Muslim 587 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:11.000 majority country, especially in eastern part and central to eastern 588 00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:17.280 part of Indonesia, we have also Christian majorities, right, But 589 00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:23.800 again doesn't mean that if you're a Christian living in 590 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.679 Christian majority region in Indonesia and they are queer, that 591 00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:34.119 you would be saved as well, because within the minor, 592 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:40.400 within this minority minority, there's also quite a strong conservative power. 593 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:45.360 Working mm hmmm, and that conservative resident can compress itself 594 00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:48.320 and some of the ways even though it's not the 595 00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:48.960 same religion. 596 00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:52.760 Mm hmm. I had I had this, I had this, 597 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.280 I had this audience question. I think it's his uh, 598 00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:04.880 his European. So his question after my book presentation was like, oh, 599 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:08.159 so what are you saying? So is it the fault 600 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.119 of Islam or is it the fault or Indonesian culture 601 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:16.599 that people are homophobia, because like, is there any in 602 00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:22.159 my presentation that suggests that. No, it's not my point 603 00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:26.960 at all. It was like, you have homophobia across religion, 604 00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:32.599 you have homophobia across cultures. Right, And then this person said, well, 605 00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:35.840 but what about Bali because I was in Bali and 606 00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.360 they're quite open. It was like, well, you went to 607 00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:41.079 a tourist area. If you go to Balin to go 608 00:48:41.320 --> 00:48:45.079 to I mean, if you are locals, you'll see that 609 00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:51.840 being queer and

friends. Also they have a difficult life 610 00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:54.039 there because also there's a lot of rejection. 611 00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:00.159 It seems to me the I mean, I don't want 612 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.239 to say that you don't have your own political or 613 00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:05.000 ethical values here, but excuse me, this book is less 614 00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:10.159 about like understanding the root causes of homophobia, orph war, 615 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:13.400 but war. It's like, here are people making the world, 616 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.039 getting on themselves, and this is how it works, what 617 00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:19.519 what it makes for them, and you're still exploring that 618 00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:22.840 and being with that more so than like trying to say, Okay, 619 00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:26.079 here's why it happened. It's almost like saying this is happening. 620 00:49:26.679 --> 00:49:30.119 These things do continue regardless of what the law says 621 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:32.559 or what the state says. These worlds exist. 622 00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:37.760 Mm hmm. A friend of mine, uh, a colleague of 623 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:42.440 man told me, because there's no there's nowhere if I 624 00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:46.679 refer to Marx, there right in my book. But he said, 625 00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:51.280 my book is really Marx's way, because there's this constant 626 00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:55.880 like I approach my study always. 627 00:49:56.360 --> 00:49:56.519 Uh. 628 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:01.119 Maybe because I don't know if all anthropologists agree, but 629 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:06.920 I found as someone who worked with people on the 630 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:17.920 grassroots and struggling against or struggling within the context of oppression, 631 00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:27.320 struggling against states, struggling against passive institutions. Is that it's 632 00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:32.719 like a dialectic rather than forever, like there's no win, 633 00:50:33.079 --> 00:50:36.480 there's never any long win. There's and there's also never 634 00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:42.920 any long loser. Right with history, it's like things are 635 00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:51.320 like they kind of interrelate, they things things. When things 636 00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:54.840 on the left are becoming more sophisticated, so that's the 637 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:58.119 right wing, you know, Like so they find new new 638 00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:01.719 ways also to to and is kind of this kind 639 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:06.400 of back and forth, these dialectics, I think, what is 640 00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:13.480 what defines live and and of course the fights are important, 641 00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:19.199 but if we focus too much on the fights of 642 00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:23.320 the winners and the losers, we forgot like the kind 643 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:24.960 of like the long run of things. 644 00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:26.599 So how. 645 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:35.159 There are casualties there there that there there are people 646 00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:38.320 also need to breathe, to to to to take care 647 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:43.199 of each other. So that the so called liberation project 648 00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:48.000 is not it's not a it's not a messianistic movement, 649 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:51.679 you know, it's not it's not as chathological. It's it's 650 00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:55.199 always it's always there will be always a pushback and 651 00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:58.639 then and then when the times come, then it's time 652 00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:05.800 to like like to reconsolidate, but also to really again 653 00:52:05.960 --> 00:52:10.400 check what we have around us, rather than to just say, oh, yeah, 654 00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:13.880 we all fail uh and then we give uh, which 655 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:20.199 creates a kind of frustration and anewy and paralysis which 656 00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:25.239 I actually also understandable. But from what I how, I 657 00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:27.440 see it as actually people just need to take some 658 00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:32.280 some rests, some respite, and then they can continue their 659 00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:36.400 strugg fight again uh again for the long run. 660 00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:39.800 Right, I think what I think I find intioning about 661 00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:42.880 the way you wrote the book. This would be difficult 662 00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:47.440 to phrase, but when you see when you, for instance, 663 00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:52.199 watch like media or or read fiction, oftentimes you only 664 00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.639 have queer and trans characters who exist to be sort 665 00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.039 of fill in for like they have to deal with 666 00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:00.920 the university of being repressed and that's why they're heroic. 667 00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:04.039 And but the old exists to be fulfill that role. 668 00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:06.639 You never get people just they're just there to be 669 00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:12.400 there mhm. And it's almost like you're exploring how these 670 00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:17.440 worlds maybe operates the wrong world, how the practices of care, 671 00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:22.519 of listening, of doing things together, how important they are 672 00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:26.000 not because they're taking part in a heroic quest against 673 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:29.159 homophobia and all these almostly because They're just important because 674 00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:32.239 they're world and themselves. They have value in themselves, it's 675 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:32.760 what they are. 676 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:41.400 Yeah, yeah, I think what I'm trying as much as 677 00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:49.559 to do is yeah, because I don't mind heroic stories. 678 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:54.119 I don't know. I also find

some values and stories 679 00:53:54.119 --> 00:53:59.480 of affectinghood. Right. But but the thing is mm hmm. 680 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.000 For me, what is more important is to stay loyal 681 00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:07.840 to to to the stories that are shared to to 682 00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:15.840 to by by the protagonists in a way that, as 683 00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:18.039 I told you, we have all these things together, we 684 00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:20.840 can be careful or sorry, how do you how does 685 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:26.320 it like compassionate? If not careful, we can be compassionate. 686 00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:29.440 But also at the same time doesn't mean that we 687 00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:34.719 can't disagree with each other, right, And that's the thing, 688 00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:44.599 like if we we we anchor all this this complexity 689 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:49.199 into certain only certain one value over the other. 690 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:50.760 Is that. 691 00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:59.719 It's hard to mm hmm. It's it's too like, yeah, 692 00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:03.559 you you can't be sterile around this, around this, because 693 00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:10.320 this is the the texture of everyday life, right. And 694 00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:13.360 I'm trying to think of an example of this so 695 00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:18.000 called care work. For instance, I think again the case 696 00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:24.599 is Maya. She's been taking her friends queer or not 697 00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:28.719 queer to to to to to the hospital because she 698 00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:32.360 she she has quite some access to the nurses and 699 00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:36.760 the system because she she worked for hivng OH for 700 00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:41.480 a while. But because she was seen very often in 701 00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:46.480 the hospital, people start to gossip that, oh, yeah, MAYA 702 00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:53.519 have HIV, which actually a big stigma still in parts 703 00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:58.840 of Indonesia, including Anji, enough to make people stop going 704 00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:05.280 to her hair salone, for instance. So after hearing that 705 00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:09.280 that story, she she she literally came through the door, 706 00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:12.519 like banging the door, and well like because there's no 707 00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:15.519 one else, she just like start shouting at me. But 708 00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:19.000 she's not shouting at me, she's shouting at the person. 709 00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:23.639 But basically she was like, do you realize what I've 710 00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:26.199 been doing all this time? I'm doing it pro bono 711 00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:28.599 and no one cares. And this is what I got, Like, 712 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:32.960 this is like people talking bad about me? Right, So 713 00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:35.360 what is the purpose in all of this? Right? That 714 00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:41.599 that's what so even in in like yes, people can 715 00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:44.719 perform care, but also there's a limit to it. If 716 00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:48.920 there's no support, there's no recognition that comes with it, 717 00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:54.840 then it becomes yeah, she is not only a burnout, 718 00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:59.639 but also like yeah, she she she she she, she 719 00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:03.000 quite uestions all of her work. That's far right, what 720 00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:08.960 would actually uh very important I found, But then yeah, 721 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:14.159 I was also very depleting because there's no one care 722 00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:18.119 for her in the meantime. So the care is again 723 00:57:18.159 --> 00:57:24.239 the resources that we think is uh never ending or endless, 724 00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:26.280 but actually no, there's a limit to it. And if 725 00:57:26.440 --> 00:57:32.199 if there's no effort, no conscious effort, intentional effort put 726 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:35.880 into that to care is about to be in a 727 00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:42.360 relationship and it's as it requires procality, then what happened 728 00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.480 is you have all these burnouts and conflicts and frictions, right. 729 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:51.079 Mm hmm, Yeah, it seems important that that that almost 730 00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:53.400 like the lack of recognition of what she's doing there 731 00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:59.360 actually another burden because it's almost like but it's not 732 00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:02.039 recognized that has has has has other effects that are 733 00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:02.519 quite bad. 734 00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:07.559 And this is not recognition from the other side of 735 00:58:07.639 --> 00:58:11.840 the community or those who poser, it's actually recognition from 736 00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:16.199 within the community. Also, sometimes people take tests for granted, 737 00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:19.559 right because this is what activist is supposed to do, 738 00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:22.880 This is what our leader has supposed to do, is like, 739 00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:28.840 so this kind of create this weird hierarchy. 740 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:33.599 It's also tricky because you know, I can see it'd 741 00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:35.280 be very easy to assume that like if you have 742 00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:38.800 a very small community, that everyone would know what's going 743 00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:41.039 with everyone else. And then if someone's doing the kind 744 00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:43.679 of support work for years, that everyone else would already 745 00:58:43.719 --> 00:58:46.760 know that. But you know, but but yeah they don't. 746 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:51.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, But this is also just one case 747 00:58:51.079 --> 00:58:56.400 in point. I think in general, in general, it is 748 00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:01.280 possible to create

this this this how do you call it? Like, 749 00:59:02.599 --> 00:59:08.480 I still not I'm not sure about using safe space, 750 00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:14.480 but there's this space where people could be right. But 751 00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:16.800 at the same time, also as I told you, it's 752 00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:22.400 very fragile because the moment there is politicians saying something 753 00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:26.840 or something came up in the news, and there will 754 00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:37.079 be the ones who will be forst targeted. M Yeah, so. 755 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:43.119 You say, I'm it was a friend or that, But 756 00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:48.000 how did your friend think your book was? Was was Marxist? 757 00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:55.119 Now? Because of the I don't know, maybe because and 758 00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:58.960 because I have made so much focus on the materiality 759 00:59:59.079 --> 01:00:08.000 of it, right like uh, I uh, maybe she's comparing 760 01:00:08.079 --> 01:00:16.639 it to this more I would say humanistic queer scholarship 761 01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:23.199 that tends to look at desire and forms of intimacy, 762 01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:30.719 while I look at more like materiality and how relationships 763 01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:35.679 are kind of mediated by a change of resources, and yeah, 764 01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:39.760 so it's much more. Yeah, I don't know material base. 765 01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:43.320 I guess it's it's just funny because if I was 766 01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:45.639 gonna reach for comparison and now I'm probably gonna totally 767 01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:49.039 offend you. So you could probably yelp me, I probably 768 01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:51.840 reached loss for marks, which more for like Mitch Donie. 769 01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:55.639 Oh, I'm not familiar with that. 770 01:00:57.199 --> 01:00:59.239 He's Another problem is that does a lot of photographies 771 01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.159 like you bo called Limb's Table, which is about the 772 01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:06.280 diner in Chicago, Chicago. Basic summary with books is here 773 01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:08.840 is a martialized community. It turns out they're actually building 774 01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:11.360 a moral community for themselves and here's how it works. 775 01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:18.639 Mmmmmm mmmm yeah I can I can say that. Yeah, 776 01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:23.239 I mean you can say that, of course, but everyone 777 01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:26.480 has their opinion. I'm not saying my work as a Marxist. 778 01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:32.239 This is also just one interpretation. But I guess I'm 779 01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:35.400 starting with that, sorry, because I do believe this idea 780 01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:41.559 of like, uh, dialectics and in politics and social life. 781 01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:49.360 Yeah cool, cool, Well, we're getting up into around the 782 01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:52.920 hours a public book with sort

of a few things 783 01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:56.639 to nudge you to towards a conclusion or myself conclusion. 784 01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:03.360 What would you say for some of the I, you know, 785 01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:05.599 thinks about people who read the book, what would you 786 01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:08.360 ideally like people to take away from having read your 787 01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:10.360 book of Like, here's what I here's what I learned 788 01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:16.000 from from reading Ferdy's book. It doesn't have to be 789 01:02:16.039 --> 01:02:18.440 a big thing. It could be something quite small, because 790 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:21.960 sometimes the small things are maybe the most important. 791 01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:30.800 At least for I mean, there are many many kind 792 01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:34.760 of targets, right, I think for the community themselves, I 793 01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:38.920 guess I think it's important because and although this is 794 01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:43.079 also this is something that I got feedback from someone 795 01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:48.400 who read or someone who use the book of parents 796 01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:54.440 who has a trend child who has difficulty in talking 797 01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:57.159 about these things, and then they read the book together 798 01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:04.119 and then have a you know, common like have a 799 01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:09.960 conversation around it. It's about Yeah, the for me, it's 800 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:17.119 about creating space for conversation basically about how how difficult 801 01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:20.480 it is actually to build worlds together. 802 01:03:21.440 --> 01:03:21.800 Huh. 803 01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:26.719 I think it's with Graver who says, like when we 804 01:03:28.320 --> 01:03:31.360 when we're we're we we enter into collective situation, a 805 01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:35.800 collective situation like an assembly, right, Like, we felt very 806 01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:40.559 moved by it, and we want to to to Actually, 807 01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:43.840 what's happening next is that we want to to to 808 01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:49.559 It's about trying to recreate the same collectivity again, which 809 01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:52.960 actually most of the time doesn't work because then that's 810 01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:56.239 where all the care work comes in, the administrational work 811 01:03:56.280 --> 01:04:04.519 comes in. So this, this, this very idea of collectivity 812 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:09.119 is a means for liberation, but it doesn't that doesn't 813 01:04:09.239 --> 01:04:18.719 mean that like you can't just rely on this or 814 01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:21.280 objective via collectivity as it is, but it is something 815 01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:27.920 that you need to constantly work on, uh, in an organization, 816 01:04:28.239 --> 01:04:30.679 in a group of people, in a group of friends. 817 01:04:31.880 --> 01:04:36.039 So just don't take prevented anything that goes into that, right, 818 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:40.840 including care, including this agreement, including how to listen to 819 01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:46.760 each other, how to deal with conflict. But for of course, 820 01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:50.639 for the bigger audience that doesn't know much about most 821 01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:56.239 of them trans or trans communities, or about how they live, 822 01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.920 how they think, I hope this kind of gives them 823 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:05.840 early way up to to two to understand that that 824 01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:12.800 that uh, having a different sexuality and having a different gender. 825 01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:21.280 Also they are in yeah, we are all human, you know, 826 01:05:21.480 --> 01:05:26.440 like uh uh, we have our failures, we have our 827 01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:33.880 success but but at the at the very end, we 828 01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:37.840 are as vulnerable as everyone else. Like as uh, I 829 01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:42.039 think speaking of inner conflict, as you said, you don't 830 01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:43.480 have to be a Muslim, you don't have to be 831 01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:46.599 queer to to to have this inner conflict. People have that. 832 01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:53.719 All people have that in different ways. So in a 833 01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:58.920 sense also give so then people could give more grace 834 01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:04.760 to others, uh uh, or their failures and their difference. 835 01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:05.559 I guess. 836 01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:10.039 In certain ways, what's more more interesting is less that 837 01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:13.920 there is an inner conflict and more what people do 838 01:06:14.559 --> 01:06:17.159 as they respond to the inn conflict and how they 839 01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:18.719 make sense of it and how they relate to it, 840 01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:20.480 how they're processing. 841 01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:24.159 Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, I think even even 842 01:06:24.199 --> 01:06:27.599 when it although its name is inner conflict, it's never 843 01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:30.760 in any individual thing actually because a lot of it 844 01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:36.679 involve relationship, involve talking with others, involved solving it with others, 845 01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:41.920 but also uh the other way around, like attacking out 846 01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:44.800 and rejecting others. 847 01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:50.639 So so yeah, yes's funny. It prefers with like I 848 01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:52.800 don't know, like it like the inner conflict between us 849 01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:55.840 or something were words but an interiority, but the entire 850 01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.559 arty is always expressed it relationally. 851 01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:03.039 Mm hmm, yeah exactly. That's also I think what I'm 852 01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:07.440 trying to

do, which is not easy because to write 853 01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:13.960 about once interiority. I think a novelist could do that successfully. Also, 854 01:07:14.039 --> 01:07:16.320 a novelist can do that in the kind of like 855 01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.800 But because I did this ethnographic research, there's I only 856 01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:26.239 see like the tape of the icebergs of what these 857 01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:31.079 people are thinking, are feeling basically mm hmmm mm hm cool. 858 01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:35.039 Cool. Well, I'll ask you just two more things. I'll 859 01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:36.840 say that I really enjoyed the book, and I hope 860 01:07:39.079 --> 01:07:41.679 this conversation will lead more people picking up and having 861 01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:43.519 having a go at reading it. But so the two 862 01:07:43.599 --> 01:07:46.840 things that maybe sort of end with tonight. One mm hmm. 863 01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:49.800 Who do you want to play you in the film version? 864 01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:56.719 Oh no, that's seconitely. Where are you going next in 865 01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:58.519 terms of projects or thoughts. 866 01:07:58.360 --> 01:08:05.800 Or I don't know. I'm not good with pop cultures. 867 01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:20.520 Who actors definitely like a white actor. No, it's hard 868 01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:24.479 because I also I have very little note of Indian actors. Sorry, 869 01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:26.920 I mean you can. 870 01:08:26.800 --> 01:08:29.319 Also go with like I'd prefer to be an anime, 871 01:08:29.600 --> 01:08:32.479 or I want a cartoon version, or or I'd prefer 872 01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:34.439 to be cartoon animals. 873 01:08:34.159 --> 01:08:36.239 Or yeah, actually I. 874 01:08:38.600 --> 01:08:38.880 Like this. 875 01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:49.880 Film, right, maybe something around around that pion very cool? Cool, 876 01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:53.079 And you're what was your second question? 877 01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:58.680 H distract it by just like what are you doing next? 878 01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:01.000 You're working on the project. 879 01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:07.439 Or So when I did my PhD, I kind of 880 01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:15.800 avoid working with activist groups because this is also by process. 881 01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:20.600 I learned that because of exactly there's a lot of 882 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:27.319 what I call dirty laundry within activist scenes that at 883 01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:31.239 that time I felt that I don't know how to 884 01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:37.000 deal with this like ethically, because there's so much dirty 885 01:09:37.079 --> 01:09:40.640 laundry within the activist scenes. And then I'm not a journalist, 886 01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:44.399 but still as a researcher, I need to to bear 887 01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:49.319 witness to it. And so rather than going through that lane, 888 01:09:49.399 --> 01:09:58.680 so I avoid engaging with them altogether.

But now ten 889 01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:06.479 years later, uh, confronted by this reality that actually things 890 01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:10.399 not only not get better, but also get even more 891 01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:17.880 I call it more sophisticated, like it's more kind of uh. Yeah, 892 01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:23.159 they're also the structure of violence, the so called structure 893 01:10:23.159 --> 01:10:30.479 of violence is also becoming more agile, uh, and more 894 01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:36.000 more hard to deal with. I felt that actually I 895 01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:43.560 need to engage with activists more because I guess what 896 01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:46.399 stops them or what what? 897 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:47.039 What? 898 01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:53.039 What contributes to the difficult that they're facing now is 899 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:57.279 also because they're not engaging or they're not dealing with 900 01:10:57.479 --> 01:11:03.439 this kind of complexity enough. Because activists they want to 901 01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:06.039 be pragmatic, right, they want to have their goals, they 902 01:11:06.119 --> 01:11:11.199 want to have their action points and so on, but 903 01:11:13.159 --> 01:11:16.600 they also forget about what goes in between that. Who 904 01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.920 who will buy the toilet tissue where the toilet tissue 905 01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:27.560 is it's not there? Who will uh fix them for fridge? 906 01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:30.640 Who will provide the food? No one's taking care of 907 01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:34.159 that because everyone is too busy being at the forefront 908 01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:39.199 right But actually, as you know, as you as we 909 01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:45.840 all experience right now, when the so called violent structures 910 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:52.520 has becoming, it's everywhere almost everywhere you go physically by 911 01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:56.640 from the state, from the institution, from the university, from 912 01:11:56.840 --> 01:12:03.199 the corporates, from their writing activists, from the political parties, 913 01:12:03.479 --> 01:12:12.039 even from people you see on the street. We need 914 01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:16.439 that space, We need that space for healing and reparation 915 01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:22.560 also within us. So my next project is about exactly 916 01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:28.880 wanting to look at the role of called radical care 917 01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:36.199 environment also care beyond humans in relation to queer and 918 01:12:36.279 --> 01:12:40.640 transactivism in not only in Indonesia but in Southeast Asia, 919 01:12:41.319 --> 01:12:44.840 because I want to engage with Malaysia. We mentioned it 920 01:12:44.960 --> 01:12:48.079 already and maybe several other countries. 921 01:12:50.039 --> 01:12:53.920 M Yeah, that sounds like super interesting and I'll look 922 01:12:53.960 --> 01:12:55.199 forward to hearing more about it. 923 01:12:56.319 --> 01:12:59.319 Yeah, I'm not sure about writing a second book because 924 01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:01.960 it took me twelve years to finish the first one. 925 01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:04.760 But let's see, maybe the second one will be faster. 926 01:13:06.479 --> 01:13:09.479 Not all things have to be books, but Dad, I 927 01:13:09.640 --> 01:13:14.720 just can take many forms. Maybe it'll be a laundromat 928 01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:18.159 where you can people do their clothes together, clean, clean 929 01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:24.239 the dirty laundry. Right, but thank you very very much 930 01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:25.560 for that. That was super interesting party. 931 01:13:26.159 --> 01:13:30.279 Thank you Stefan, and yes, thank you for making the type. 932 01:13:30.720 --> 01:13:34.960 I know you are in a difficult situation now hop everything. 933 01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:38.560 I hope you can endure it and then also have 934 01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:41.560 some otherwise possibilities come up out of it. 935 01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:44.560 I will find ways to endure otherwise. 936 01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:17.720 Doing the doping bink Doggi