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speaker-0: Welcome to Heads and Tales with me
speaker-1: Me, Henry Faber. And me, Walter Carr. At Operaden Education young people in school
speaker-0: We mentor young school and at home around.
speaker-1: the world, building confidence in the next generation. And we also need mentors ourselves. So each week we chat to an inspiring leader in the world of education and then share that with you. On this episode of Heads and Tails, we're joined by Adam Selden, teacher and author of the book Around the World in 80 Schools, The Global Journey to Discover What Makes a Truly Great School. In the episode, we of course tried to unpick that question. Whilst Adam takes us on his own journey from a childhood surrounded by a family of teachers to senior leadership in state schools around the UK. Hope you enjoy. Welcome back to Heads and Tails, another episode with me, Walter Carr, one of the co-founders here at Oppurden Education. And on this episode, we are delighted to be joined by Adam Selden, teacher and author. Adam, the son of two teachers, he joined the profession through Teach First and has spent almost a decade in the classroom, including positions as head of history, head of year, and assistant principal. Adam has just launched, re released his new book Around the World in Eighty Schools, which follows his journey to more than eighty schools across six continents, asking the pertinent question, What makes a great school? Adam, thank you for joining us on the podcast.
speaker-0: it's great to be here, Walter. thank you for having me.
speaker-1: Wonderful, good start. Right. You're looking resplendent if you are only listening in a lovely crisp blue iron shirt. but the the intrepid adventuring you set out to to to prove this concept, just take us into the origin story then of why you decided to write this book from the beginning.
speaker-0: Well, I as you alluded to in your opening, I my parents were teachers and I s grew up in schools as well. and I became a teacher. so I've not really been able to get away from schools. and I yeah, I noticed I was quite privileged in the school and that I went to and I noticed the slight differences in terms of the educational experiences. students received in the schools that I work through what I teach first. so I was that kind of got me thinking about comparing schools in a sort of, you know, national context as such. and then I'm I'm a big fan of travel, a lot of you Walter. and I thought, you know what, there's lots of, you know, schools are one of the few institutions that countries across the whole world share. It is the first civic institution that young people encounter. and basically everyone now on the planet goes to primary school. and although it is a shared institution, there are things that we do slightly differently, different cultures, contexts. And I think there's something in there that we can we can learn from one another. And I think slightly tied to that, I do think schools, you know, despite being places of education can feel like quite unintellectual places, where you often run autopilot and don't necessarily step back and think about the why. and ask those big questions like what remates the great school. So I also wanted to explore that in a way I I'm less able to do in the day to day as a teacher.
speaker-1: Love it. That is a pretty nice summary. For decl declaration of interest, Adam and I met in a bar in South Korea, lovely rooftop bar in the evening sun. And I have never been more jealous of a an adventure and a project. I think you were the beginning of your trip. So the you finished where? November twenty five, you finished in Portugal. Just give the listener yeah, give the listener a sense of where you went.
speaker-0: Won't I won't bother listening with all with all thirty one countries. but you know, I was I was having a pluralistic output, outlook even was important. So I wanted to go to a range of countries and continents. so yes, did go to sort of Asia, the South East, Central, Australasia, Africa and South in East North America, South America, Europe. so try to get a range of places. I was always sort of slightly regretful that I couldn't go to this country, I didn't go to that country. I've not covered this enough. so I was always slightly wanting to do more. And there's always a slight tension between breadth versus depth. but hopefully I got a range of countries. I'm sorry to the countries I didn't visit.
speaker-1: So what so just give us one one or two anecdotes about some of the the best schools you visited or most interesting schools you visited and and why they were different or what you learned from them.
speaker-0: so choosing choosing a best school is is really hard. there I didn't I don't have a favourite schools. but and it's there's something to something that I could took from most of them and obviously I might have taken some from more of them from others. I will go for one school just is in my mind now as an anecdote, is a school in South Africa. they have a chain of schools. in townships in South Africa. and what really struck me was it built itself as a mass like a math school. I didn't really I didn't really know what I was walking into. And sometimes with schools I kind of know what I was I kind of know they do this thing. I want to see that in action. Whereas with this particular series of schools, or sorry, a chain of schools even, they really harness peer relationships really effectively to try and influence each other. be and that's sometimes such an important factor in your learning and your attitude in relationship to school is how your peers respond. And often schools are quite reluctant to cross the Rubicon, whereas they relent into it. so I I just saw lots of amazing peer influence sessions in action with that was a sort of a class in a circle holding each other to account for attendance. And hearing peers say to another peer, like, You're letting your mum down and like the teacher got
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to catch you up now, like that's quite selfish. It's incredibly powerful to see it in action. or in that they sat afternoon in a kind of assembly hall with four hundred students and about five staff. there was a vigorous argument about how far the prefect was doing their duties and upholding this upholding the the credit of conduct. And I was next to the head teacher and I like, This is kinda getting five stuff know, they'd they're being respectful, but it was very passionate. and their voices were getting quite loud and the teacher was just loving it. He was like, That's fine, don't worry. My my my teacher was like, I need to kinda step in there and calm things down. But it really showed the they brought into the culture because they really influenced each other into it and they had power over it. So that's that's one anecdote I I'll give you.
speaker-1: Nice. Love it. I mean, this podcast listened to by by teachers and I say collectively, we're all quite nerdy about policy and about process and particularly purpose. I mean, as at Oppudin, we are huge into the sense of purpose for young people. Of all the schools you visited, which had the clearest purpose? Maybe not that school that you just talked about, is there another anecdote of like an institution that just had a collective sense from teachers, staff, caterers, children?
speaker-0: I think lots of schools have mission statements and they they announce a purpose, but you don't always see it in the day-to-day. It's sort of kept on website masts or on signs in reception. so I was always you know, the first chapter of my book is actually on that thing of purpose, mission and philosophy. What other schools it reenact it day to day? I'll go for Okay, I'm gonna do two very different ones, very short, that's all right, water. One is in America, a academy, sorry, a a not academy, a charter school in the state school system in America, which had a mission of to and through university. So they weren't just getting their kids to university, they knew that they wanted to get them through university as well, because they knew they know that from their data, students of the background that they serve are more likely to drop out of university. So everything in their mission was dedicated towards enabling the to and the through. So they, you know, the extracurricular was fantastic, far better than I see in the state system here, because they know that extracurricular is so essential for developing those skills like resilience, like independence that you need to get through university. So that's the American state school. And then a school in Ethiopia had a mission to teach future leaders. because you the the school was sorry, that school is the country in through civil war and the school was really committed to this idea of we can nurture future generations of leaders who can solve conflicts. And they had di they had people from students from different ethnicities and backgrounds in Ethiopia and they were
educated together. and when we speak about purpose, it's not just purpose for the kids, it's purpose for the staff as well. And it was lovely speaking to a teacher, you know, he he this teacher before worked in an international school in Addis and he was like I was a nobody, I wasn't really doing anything here. It's right, I wasn't really doing anything there. I was just kind of part of the system. Whereas here he really felt he was contributing to creating future leaders. And when he spoke to students, they were like, We're part of a a future generation who's gonna solve Ethio e Ethiopia's problems. So that there was a real sense of mission imbued in the students in the startup, and that was really, really powerful.
speaker-1: Love it. You were quoted or you wrote for The Observer a couple of weeks ago, I think, about the case against GCSEs and it's a it's a popular case and it's, you know, part of that kind of pro progressive side of education that we that we talk about a lot. was there a was there a case or an example of a school that was doing kind of that level of education at that age better than we are doing in the UK? Like was there one example that that convinced you?
speaker-0: I think motivation for students is really, really important. I think Andy Burnham's you know, his proposals are controversial. I sometimes worry, you know, I do worry a bit about putting kids on to tracks like the the vocational versus academic track prematurely, which the Sutton Trust has raised concerns about as well. But he's he's made a quite a personal comment about people saying the school is not for me. and I do worry that in the current framework of GCSEs it it's it's more likely that kids say that and I hear it the whole the whole time that I'm a civil teacher and it's really sad. and I think where you give students a bit more agency and autonomy in their learning journey, that can be a way for them to feel like they have a bit more control of their learning, but also for them to feel successful in school. And that feeling of success is so crucial for motivation. Because your market to feel your market to feel motivation to feel successful. Often people think, well, if I if I I if I motivate myself I'll be successful. But actually often for young people, You need to give them a chance for success and then they'll be motivated. And it was just it was a school in New Zealand, a state school in New Zealand, and the kids could sometimes choose modules. in not sometimes all the time they can choose modules on sort of a termly basis, from and it's with students in year seven to nine, so key stage three, and then also again from ten to eleven equivalent. And just having that element of choice was lovely because I know I was speaking to students who are like, yeah, I'm doing a podcast module. And they were talking about how they interviewed a a New Zealand rugby player. And like, you know, they felt so motivated, partly because they felt they had a choice over their learning and they felt successful from that learning. and actually one of them said at the end of the conversation, my cousins go to school in England and they hate it. so that was an example where there is motivation and that motivation comes partly from student agency and they have the agency because there's more capacity in the curriculum to do to be a bit more creative.
speaker-1: Love it. Love it. It's part of that mastery purpose autonomy map an acronym we call it around you showcase mastery to a child and they become motivated off the back of it, but it's all imbued around the sense of autonomy and wider purpose. I love it. Now you might obviously you have read listeners, readerships, whatever, may have also read Lucy Crayon's book, Cleverlands. That was probably part of the genesis of maybe this trip. I love that. I think she sets out her vision, her kind of you know, her her litmus test for what makes a gray school. So I'm gonna move away from the book, but I am gonna just ask you one final question. It is available by the way in all good bookshops, and I highly suggest you recommend it. I've just ordered it. but what does then in maybe, I don't know, two or three examples, if you can, lay out for me what makes a gray school.
speaker-0: I think a great school sees education as an experience rather than just a transaction. I think too often we conceive of schools as being how can we get the kids the next rung up the ladder rather than thinking this is a precious one off chance for our students between five and eighteen. where we can not just give them, you know, the the knowledge and skills that they need, but also that we can set them up for for life. And how can we give them an experience that sets them up for life? But also how can we make sure that experience itself is as joyful, purposeful, meaningful, where feel happy in itself. so, you know, totally contrasting to what you experienced in England. I was in a school in Argentina and the one of the senior leaders, every every single student, she kissed them on the teak when they came in, which would not be done in England for various reasons. but I asked her about it and she said it's a favorite part of my day because it's a chance for connection and that kind of physical touch. And you know, that's an example of we know relation we know that the single biggest factor for your personal happiness is the quality of your relationships. All the research shows that. So what are we doing in schools to create an experience where there are meaningful connections and relationships built up rather than thinking of school as just a sort of timetable where they do maths and science and that's done.
speaker-1: Love it. And amazing. And and obviously as Ofsted bring in, you know, belonging is central to that framework. I I've never heard anyone frame it as experience rather than transaction, but I love it. I'm gonna nick that, I think. Well then let's go back. We're we're sort of towards the
sort of back end of this podcast and I've got a controversial opinion I need to get from you. I've got our school bell round to come, but I can't I'm afraid ask you on our podcast without just doing some amateur psychology. you are a Selden and seldons carry rightfully great authority in the education sector and both your parents were are in the education sector and you know your father was a central proponent, maybe the key proponent in much of what we call character education today. His role at Wellington introduced you know, happiness classes. That's a kind of sort of slightly trite example of a much wider kind of a bibliography of progress that he's done. But how does that weigh on you as a as a as a young man coming through the system? Did you ever have a chance not to be in education? How do you how do you kind of relate or refer back to to to your to your kind of formative years in in that question? Well
speaker-0: Well, as I as I say in chaps in the introduction of that that book that you mentioned, I do mention how my parents did not force me or either of my older siblings either into into schools. I I I became a teacher. So it's very much my personal choice. and I think you know, with the Selden name I think I don't use it. but I might use him where appropriate, because, you know, he's a great speaker, so I've got him in to speak to staff before to students. so I think it's you know, he's a good contact, is how I I see him. and although we're both in education, we're slightly slightly different paths. I think I'm slightly more wedded to the state sector. I've briefed it the private sector. I know the value of independent schools and my parents more have been based in the independent sector than their careers. but there's a slight difference difference there as well. but we we we align l with lots of things around character, well being, yeah.
speaker-1: Is it is this sort of separation of church and state a bit when you go home for supper? Are you allowed to talk about anything but education? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Well, I mean, my other s my my other siblings are in politics and my dad has a sort of an education hat, he's got his politics hat. so but generally we actually don't talk about that. We kinda talk about like with lots of kind of kind of like kind of family stuff when we're having supper. where are we for Christmas? We very rarely get into debates about Lucy Powell's education policy or Bernard's conference speech.
speaker-1: Well again, love your segment.
speaker-0: It's what it's what's for Christmas and and what on what TV show are you watching?
speaker-1: I I don't believe for one second that you and your dad are chatting about, you know, the next episode of Slow Horses. But anyway, you've set me up nice nicely then to talk about policy maybe and and maybe politics. If you if you will stand on the soapbox, I ask all guests this question, just and your father who came on the the the series a while ago, one controversial opinion that you have in education.
speaker-0: one controversial opinion I have in education is most assemblies are terrible.
speaker-1: Fair, go on. Give me ten and sec twel thirty seconds on that.
speaker-0: Well, they're just not a thought like this is like we've got the whole group together. This is like a powerful moment that's really like leverage this, let's like inspire, motivate, and often, in various s schools I've worked in or been to, they're not as thought through as they should be.
speaker-1: Love it. That's practical advice for any senior head or young teacher coming through the ranks.
speaker-0: I remember I remember Sunday assemblies I got from some of my teachers. They're they're powerful moments.
speaker-1: Yeah, Peter Hyman always talks about in the round. You know, somebody's in the round rather than rather than Rose. Lovely. okay, that's a controversial opinion. what next? Before we get onto the school, Bell, you're you're back in the UK, you're back teaching. What w n what next for you?
speaker-0: Well, I I'm keen to keep on teaching. you know, some people write books and go off into maybe policy space as well as spaces, which is admirable in a different way to make an impact, but I'm keen to you know, keep on playing my thorough. and you know, you get great conversations with students that makes you think like, you know, anybody cultivating resilience and I was just speaking to kids yesterday evening at open evening. them talking about CCF and like, it was the worst day ever last month. We like we be we barely slept. But then they were like, actually it was so great because you had to do a long march and we had to camp. And you know, that is a great example of we need to push kids out of their comfort zone because they have a great experience and they develop resilience rather than over protection. Which maybe could be a different a different controversial statement. so I'm gonna stay in teaching and I like writing, hence the book. so I will keep on trying to write and occasionally be speak and occasionally be on fantastic podcasts such as Heads and Tails is the plan.
speaker-1: I told you you had my dream job, so you have to say something nice to me in in in return. Right, let's finish this podcast then with five short, snappy questions as part of our school bell. Okay, Adam. First one, we're a big mentoring business, we believe in the power of mentors. Every kid should have a mentor. Who is or who was your mentor?
speaker-0: my mentor, I th I think I'm gonna go for a former housemaster of mine, who occasionally touched bass still. he ran for a beer a couple of years ago, which was lovely. Yeah, Mr. Pearson. he's just he's just got appointed to a new job to a good public the Blundels. Blundels. Have it. Great.
speaker-1: Okay. Mr Pearson.
speaker-0: great man. He wrote me a note to not before joined my school and I still have that. And that's a great example of you know, he saw education as more than just the knowledge, but developing the person. Yeah.
speaker-1: So good. There is a read, I I'm going off script here, but there is a read in the consistency of everything you say, which returns to experience, pupil voice, child centered. Yeah, it's lovely.
speaker-0: Yeah, although although I do I just I, you know, big I do think knowing stuff is really, really important. And, you know, when I teach I'm like I'm lacking in loads of knowledge. So and as I ha you know, in the book I do try and know I'm a big fan of teacher teacher learning as well. But yes, I do also agree with what you said about what I f what I value. Yeah. Correct.
speaker-1: second question is what is your favourite book?
speaker-0: my favorite book is the one I'm reading currently, it which is Team of Rivals by Dear Kern Goodwin about Abraham Lincoln.
speaker-1: Love it. if you weren't in education, what would you be doing?
speaker-0: maybe writing if one if one could, if I could.
speaker-1: Very good. Very good. and I mean you may have asked this answers already, but we ask anyway. So what is one thing all schools should be doing?
speaker-0: great assemblies. mentoring.
speaker-1: And finally, Adam, what would you tell your sixteen year old self having had all the success that you have had?
speaker-0: improve your handwriting. do we challenge on the board of the students? i is one thing. And what and the other thing is to keep on ho working hard and keep on giving.
speaker-1: I want to finish this with a reflection. I feel like this will be a a sort of historical evidence of, you know, one of the early interviews that Adam Selden gave on his rise to the top of education and whatever guys that may be. And we'll look upon this as a sort of kernel of of early thought. there's much success ahead. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for being so open. I think the adventure you've had is is as I said, an enviable one. And I'm excited to see how you kind of develop all those ideas in your own institutions and continue to write and and think about these things. So thank you for joining. Experience over transaction. That's where we're gonna leave it. Adam, thank you for appearing on this episode of Heads and Tails.
speaker-0: Thank you for having me.