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listening to this and they're not a member yet, go to ecfa.org/join. That's my little public- The applications Michael Martin: team is Aaron Mercer: thanking you ... that's my public affairs, uh, plug right there. Um, yes, so, but no, I, we have a great diversity of, of members. Um, so how do you, how do you try to accredit all of them? How do you work with [00:06:00] all of them to help them on their own ministry accountability journey? Um, and I love the approach that we take. In fact, one of the early documents I got to work on for ECFA was, we have a resource that is called essentially Why Does ECFA Not Rate Ministries? And, um, working on that really helped me get an appreciation for, um, just how important it is that we have this... You know, on the one hand, you've got, uh, you've got all these, these ministries and, and there's a question mark of like, well, how do you, how, how can you measure, um, the work that they're doing? And how do you... You know, you... It's not like a business where you can look at quarterly statements and things like that. Like, how are you gonna measure? But even it, is it measuring really our, our job as ECFA? It's not measurements for measurement's sake. It's, um, working to, um- ensure there's a base level of accountability there. Um, you asked in previous work that I'd done, [00:07:00] I'll, you know, let me just throw out, uh, when I worked for, um, a local church, um, and I, a church I still attend today, you know, there's, there's a value, I think, in having measurements internally to make sure you are accomplishing the goals you set out to reach as an organization or as a team. For, in my case, it was our communications team. Um, but it's different when you start talking about measurements between organizations. Um, and that, I think there, you, you start going down a different track of, um, making yourself, your own work at the best it can be versus trying to compare yourself to others. Um, ECFA works hard, I believe, to not be trying to set up a comparison culture between the ministries that are part of ECFA, that are all different kinds of ministries, whether it's local churches or international organizations or, um, a local nonprofit that's reaching a certain community. Also, d- ministries that are at different stages of development.[00:08:00] We're not trying to say one is better or worse than the other one. We wanna just make sure there's a fundamental, uh, level of trust that can be had in those organizations. I think that's, I think that's important. Michael Martin: So I don't like this label, but, but I'll, I'll throw it out there, like the devil's advocate. Um, you know, to kind of maybe, um, throw a question back at you, um, which would be, but what about for donors? Hmm. Like, um, isn't it just easier for them if instead of saying, oh, okay, there's potentially these, like you mentioned, 2,700 organizations that are part of ECFA, they're all accredited, versus under other models where it may say, like, this one's an A charity and this one's a B charity- Mm-hmm and, and on down the line, or, or different ratings and rankings, um- You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, um, is it, is that alternative easier for donors? [00:09:00] Aaron Mercer: Yeah, that's an interesting question. Um, I think that donors, anybody who feels called to invest in a ministry needs to take that, that heartfelt call seriously. And th- you know, everyone has to make their own decision on where they're going to in- invest and where they're gonna support. Um, what ECFA does is gives a, uh, an accreditation, uh, a base level of comfort, uh, that you can know that the min- if, if there's a ministry world you're thinking about, you can know if someone has been accredited by ECFA, they've go- they've voluntarily, by the way, gone through a process to say, "We, um, are submitting to these accountability standards, base- basic biblical standards that are robust," by the way, as you know, um, related to evangelical mission, um, board governance, charitable gift communication. I mean, of, our... We have seven standards of accountability. And, uh, those [00:10:00] minis- you know those ministries have said, "We want to be part of that integrity movement. We wanna be, um, known as ministries of integrity." So If donors are looking for third-party accountability, they know it's there at a base level. Now, beyond that, do they need to do more research? Yes, they do, and I think that's, that's part of what any donor needs to really wrestle with a bit is where does the Lord want me to invest? Is it something... Do I want to... Am I called to invest in a, a local ministry in my local community? Am I called to invest in an international organization? I mean, there's different... People will have different heart calls depending on what the Lord puts on their hearts. And, um, you know, maybe, maybe part of their consideration might be what are some of the reviews I've seen? I, you know, that maybe there's a pl- I, you know, I'm not saying there's not a place for the other sides of those coins. But what ECFA is doing is working to, uh, give a base level of accreditation, a base level of trust. Um, and you didn't [00:11:00] ask this yet, but I'm... Also, I think one of the things that is special about the ECFA model, and hopefully would be important to donors, is that ECFA is try- working to come alongside these organizations to make sure that they can stay strong as ministries of account- churches and ministries of accountability and integrity. Michael Martin: Yeah. No, you read my mind. Oh. I was just thinking about that, too. I Aaron Mercer: set it up well, then. I Michael Martin: got it. We have a lot of these conversations. Um, yeah, 'cause I think you spoke well to that from a donor's perspective, and I think there's something to be said for not just, if I can say it this way, like, falling into a shortcut. Or maybe it's easier to say, like,

"Oh, well, this one is ranked slightly higher than this one." Mm-hmm. "So then that, therefore that means, you know, that's where I need to give," versus the additional, like, prayerful discernment, uh, uh, piece as well. But I do think, um, to your point, too, Aaron, about the importance of the distinctive of ECFA in the ecosystem that we're in or within the body of Christ as being an organization that's here to [00:12:00] actually help build up the body of Christ, to help set standards that organizations aspire to. Speak to the importance of that from what you see. Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Um, so again, ECFA's seven standards of accountability. We, we want, um, every organization to be able to, to live up to that. And it's such a blessing to know there are so many churches and ministries that want to voluntarily tell the people that th- both who are supporting them, we talked about their donors, um, as well as those they're supporting, the communities that they're in. They want them to know that they are operating as ministries of integrity, and tha- that's, that's, that's huge. Um, and the way ECFA is structured, we, you know, we, we look at the, um, financial statements of every organization as a member of ECFA. W- our team has interactions with every member of ECFA every year. It's an annual thing. Um, and, you know, if there are question marks that come alo- along the way, [00:13:00] um, or just discussion points that our team wants to have further discussion with our member, they have those conversations, and they have those conversations when, um, you know, not when there's a fire alarm being pulled. Um, hopefully it's... Members are doing this voluntarily, and they want to have best practices. They want to do the right thing. Um, and it's just so good to have a team of folks who want to help in that. And that's just, I think that's a, it's a blessing for, I hope a blessing for the ministries. I believe it's a blessing for the kingdom, uh, in general, um, and, uh, in our country and beyond. Michael Martin: Yeah, absolutely. I wanna come back to something you said earlier, too, about, um, we're not trying to create a... Did you say a culture of competition? Is that the way you described it? That sounds right, Aaron Mercer: yeah, yeah. Michael Martin: Okay. Um, but I think about the importance of, of unity. We were just both together recently- Mm ... at an ECFA board meeting. One of our board members shared just a beautiful [00:14:00] devotional around the idea of unity within the body of Christ, and this actually just came, kinda came back to me. Um, passage from John 17. I think it's applicable to this conversation, too, Aaron. And this, by the way, is when, this is recording Jesus praying for believers. Isn't that a powerful thing to think about? Mm. Like, Jesus praying for us? Yeah. Like, we think about we're praying, but, like, Jesus praying for us. He said to the Father, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those

who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one, I in them and you in me, so that they may be brought to complete unity." Aaron Mercer: Hmm. " Michael Martin: Then the world will know that you sent me [00:15:00] and have loved them even as you have loved me." I would love to hear your, um... And that's John 17:20 through 23. Um, love to hear your reflections on that. But a couple things that really stand out to me too, Aaron, are that, um, Jesus talks about unity, and, like, that's a marker uh, of a, of a believer, um, but also so that the world who is watching- Aaron Mercer: Mm ... Michael Martin: the church, um, the importance of unity to that as well. And it just makes me think of that piece of ECFA's mission, too, that we talk about a lot, some of our why, which is not just accountability for accountability's sake, but it is, um, accountability that helps accelerate the gospel. Like, that's ultimately what, what we strive to do. And so as this verse talks about the gospel moving forward, um, unity is such a key piece of that. Hm. Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Uh, amen. Well, thanks for, thanks for reading that [00:16:00] scripture. That's, that is really, that's really great. And I, yeah, a- absolutely. I think it's important to remember that every one of the members that ECFA represents, there's so many of them, uh, amongst the 2,700, and so many expressions of serving the Lord. I think it's important to remember that they each have their own calling, um- And they were, they were the reason why every one of those churches and every one of those ministries, whether they're local, international, regional, whatever the case may be, in, in whatever kind of field they're in, they were started because they felt like the Lord put some- something on their hearts to start and to address a certain, um, need that God put on their hearts to work on. Um, and they're not meant to be... Those are not... If we're all, if those calls are all coming from the same person, from the Lord, they're not in competition with each other. Michael Martin: How could we s- how could we assign a grade to that? Aaron Mercer: How could we [00:17:00] assign a, how can we rank them on which one is more important than the other? That's not, um, at least in, for ECFA, that's not our, that's not what we're supposed to be doing, and we, we believe that's, uh, not what we're supposed to be doing. We're supposed to be assuring, um, donors, assuring those who the ministries support, uh, the watching world that you mentioned, that there's a base level of accountability. There's thir- we believe accountability is a biblical concept, a concept that was modeled, uh, throughout the scriptures. Um, I'm thinking Paul in particular, a number of times brings up accountability measures that he set in place. Um, but y- you wanna ha- that's a biblical concept to have accountability in all the different areas where, uh, ECFA is, is operating, but that doesn't mean that we're, we're not, um, putting one against another as this ministry is more important than the other. And, and really at the end of the day, we're trying to help each other. I mean, each of the ministries, we're all part of the same [00:18:00] community trying to serve the kingdom of God. Um, and we, we should all want each of our ministries to be ministries or churches of integrity. Um, and for the watching world, um, whatever they may think in general about us individually or as a group, they should know that we're people of integrity, and that's what, that's what ECFA is working on. Um, you were mentioning the, the rankings just a, or the ratings just a minute ago. I was, I was laughing 'cause I, I was thinking about how, um, I had saw this, uh, individual on Instagram not too long ago who was, uh, rating... He's a, you know, young guy, seems like he's probably early out of college, and what I loved about what he was doing is he was visiting different, uh, denominations. I think it was 30 denominations in 30 days. And, and, um, what I love about that is that he was a, he was trying to get out there and say, "How are these different expressions of Christianity, um, operating?" [00:19:00] Um, what I thought was funny that he was assigning, then assigning how his, his ratings for how he thought the worship was or how he thought the preaching was. Like, I'll give this a 7 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10 or a 5 out of 10, and you know, that's very subjective. Um- And I'm not trying to knock him because I really appreciate what he was doing of trying to expose himself and other, his v- his followers to just how rich the body of Christ is. But I do think it kind of gets to the idea of if you start rating and you start ranking one organization against another, um, you just have to be careful with that because you're definitely assigning, um, some subjective ideas there. And, and anyone who, getting back to your earlier question about donors or w- or what- it could be volunteers or whatever too, but, um, if you're gonna... If you, hopefully you're looking for a base level account of accountability, um, and integrity, assurance of integrity. But if you were to, if you were to go f- go and think, [00:20:00] okay, well, I'm gonna narrow down my search even more by based on a Google review or a rating system of some kind, just make sure you know what the, what are the, um, parameters there. What are, what is... If someone is offering a review, what's, where are they coming from? And keep that in mind. You know, that's just, I think that's all important to be thinking about. But for ECFA's purposes of enhancing trust in the, in the body of Christ more broadly, um, I think the way that we do this is, uh... I think it's helpful for the watching

world, it's helpful for the donors, and really, I mean, I think it's helpful for the ministries themselves. Michael Martin: Yeah. Yeah. No, good points on, um The subjectivity piece of it, and I know I've been around tables before, Aaron, with leaders of ministries where I think, again, just speaking to one of the shadow sides, I guess, of thinking that way, is there'd be conversations around, "Oh, well, like, if we kinda tweak this in this [00:21:00] way, or if we present our numbers like this," like almost a level of, like, manipulation in order to get to something that seems, like, somewhat arbitrary of, like, how can we as a ministry, like, outpace this other one? Because maybe in the eyes of donors, that's gonna look more important. And I just wonder, you know, how many ministries that are so mindful of that, it's like maybe they're also missing out on obedience- Mm. To l- w- to what God has called us to do because what if the obedient thing to do, uh, or we feel like God's calling us to invest in a certain other ministry or a program or a resource, but, like, it actually cuts against our efficiencies. Um, and I just think that would be... That'd be a really sad place to be. Or even donors, you know, talking about this, too, of, um, if the only thing that comes to the mind of a donor is an efficiency, um, level or a rating or a ranking. But what [00:22:00] if God actually wants you to give to that other organization that maybe doesn't rate, rate or rank quite as high, um, because maybe they're in a capacity-building season, or, like, they need more resources. Um, I just would be saddened to know that either ministries were seeking something different than, you know, what it is that the Lord would be calling them to and then the same thing for donors. Aaron Mercer: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, certainly important to be thinking about whether or not a... You know, what... First of all, what is the Lord calling you to give to if you're, if you're a donor, um, and you know, in what way. And you mentioned some ministries are in startup phase. Some are in a more mature phase or expanding operations or whatever. I mean, whatever the case may be. Um, but there's a, there's a discernment process there. Maybe it's even a discipleship process there, too, um, of in, in, in that way. Um, and I thought what you just said, too, uh, about kinda chasing, um, ways to make your ratings [00:23:00] look better, uh, it's just, that's something to be cautious about, um- Again, I'm not trying to badmouth all ratings, 'cause that's not my intention. Not, there, not to say that there's not a place for them at all, but I think it's good to just be aware of, um, what goes into those ratings, what are the choices that the raters have made to, to, um, make those rating. Whether it's someone who has a... There's some who do ratings who have definitely have set questions or set items they're trying to, um, create their rankings with. Google Reviews, for example, it's just whatever somebody thinks after experiencing, um, something. And, um, those can be, those can be useful too perhaps, but, uh, it's always important to keep that in mind. But what you just said, uh, actually was interesting. I feel... I believe it was Christianity Today, I could be wrong about that. But I think there was just recently a article where they were talking to s- uh, someone who had, um, was, was talking about how, uh, he w- h- he had been, uh, changing his writings, his [00:24:00] writings, his, uh, communications to essentially chase an algorithm. Like, what does the algorithm reward? Um, you know, so there's a, there's... And, and what you were just talking about is chasing a, a rating, essentially. What does the rating system reward? Um, you know, how, how heavily should that play into what you're doing versus, um, trying to discern the best next steps for what God's called your, to your ministry? Now, uh, that's not to say that there's not a, not something to be said for trying to make sure your, your message can use the, the tools and the, the playing field, uh, that's before you to get to as many people as possible, and you're not trying to set up barriers, um, artificial barriers to keep them from experiencing what you're trying to offer. Um, but there's, there's definitely an area of caution in there of what are you trying to pursue, uh, as your, as your end goal. Michael Martin: Yeah. And I think, like, we just have [00:25:00] to, as we're going into this conversation, admit, like, there, there is, like, some nuance to it. There's some complexities- Mm ... to it. There's, there's really no perfect model. In ECFA, we don't claim that, that ours is, is perfect, right? Um, but I think both from a ministry leader side as well as donors, like, there is some nuance to this that, especially in a culture where we like things to be just frictionless and easy and simple, like, this may be one of those areas where it's not necessarily just, uh, clear-cut all the time. Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, ECFA, pr- One of the beauties of ECFA, for the mission that ECFA has of enhancing trust- I think, you know, it's really important to have. I think the system that we have, like you said, nothing is flawless, and there's always, um, there's always room to be checking, rechecking to make sure that we're doing things the right way. Um, but I do think that there is something to be said for having that, encouraging that [00:26:00] culture of, um, a ministry formation, uh, formation for, uh, moving p- moving folks towards making sure that they alwa- always are ministries, churches of integrity, um, versus just being very cautious about not trying to set up a, a c- culture of competition, like we said before, between different kinds of ministries or even different ministries within the same, same group. Um, so I just... I'm thankful for the way ECFA approaches that. Michael Martin: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm

gonna ask you to put on your public affairs hat. Put yourself in the seat of an organization that is an ECFA member. Um, because there are the different models that are out there, there's the ratings, the rankings, all that, and then you also have organizations that are part of ECFA. If you were to advise them, 'cause we do encourage organizations that are ECFA members, like you said, it's voluntary. You've met these standards. Like, be proud of communicating that, [00:27:00] um, you do embrace accountability. You're a part of ECFA. Um, what advice would you give to ministry leaders to help communicate not only to donors, but also to, to, to the world that's around, like we talked about, that's watching, um, how we're behaving as organizations? How would you recommend, uh, ministry leaders communicate their participation in ECFA, um, in a way that cuts through all the noise- Hmm ... of, you know, donors that are tracking lots of different things? Uh, what would you advise organizations- Yeah ... that are part of ECFA? Aaron Mercer: That's a, that's a great question. Um, I think if a ministry, if a church has, you know, has worked to meet vol- especially voluntarily, by the way, worked to meet the robust standards that ECFA has, they should promote that on... whether it's on their website or it's in their communications. And actually, we have, uh... ECFA provides every member with a toolkit. Um, and [00:28:00] in that toolkit, uh, there's a number of pieces of that toolkit, but in the member toolkit are, are, uh, ways for, uh, templates that those organizations can use to help do what you just said, make sure that, um, their communities know, their donors know what, what does that ECFA seal mean in the first place, what's behind it, um, to get to the talk, what we were talking about with this podcast. But It's definitely important for those folks to know, well, why did, why did you get this seal in the first place? What does that mean? Um, and, um, what are these standards that you're holding yourself to? What, what are these biblical standards you're holding yourself to? I think that's important to be thankful for, be proud of, and, and promote. Um, you know, and, and as far as the, the rest of it goes, I mean, obviously it's al- it's always good to be, uh... You wanna keep an eye on what is, uh... I would say you wanna keep an eye on what's, uh, what else is being said out in the broader, the broader world. Um, and sometimes you have [00:29:00] to take what's being said with a grain of salt. Um, but, uh, if you've gone through this par- process of third pound- party accountability through ECFA, that means something. Um, and again, it's a, it's an annual... It's not a rubber stamp. ECFA doesn't give out a rubber stamp. That's one of the things I've always loved about this organization is it's, you're not... You don't, you don't, uh, send in some dues and you're a member and that's it, or even, even gone, you know, through a process where

you get approved once and then that's it. Every year every member is looked at again, um, and has to submit their financial statements again, which they all do voluntarily, um, and meet our transparency guidelines, our, um, leadership guidelines, you know, our governance guidelines and, uh, that says... That's a lot of work and it says a lot, so I hope that people will Promote that. Um, it would be great even, you know, you mentioned donor, maybe there's a donor communication possibility there. Um, for [00:30:00] churches that are members, I, I think they could make that as part of their... If they're, if they're teaching, um, financial accountability or something like that in their, uh, whether it's in a class setting or if it's a sermon series, I mean, make that part of it. What does that mean? Why do we do this? Why is integrity in our... Being a, a place that is promoting integrity, why is that important today in our community, in our country? Why are we being part of this movement? It's not, the seal's not just a defensive symbol saying, you know, "We're okay." It's, it's a statement saying, "We are choosing to be part of a, a, uh, community that values accountability, that values integrity, and we want, we want that community to grow, and we want that, those values to spread throughout our nation and our world." Um, and that's something our nation and our world need a whole lot right now. That's right. There's not a lot of trust, uh, uh, in our, in our, uh, culture right [00:31:00] now. Michael Martin: Yeah. Um, just to reinforce what you just said, which all of it was, I think, so spot on, talk about the importance of not just communicating once, but the importance of re-communicating. 'Cause I think that's also something that's, uh, maybe a little bit of a easy trap for us to fall into is, like, oh, well, you know, we became part of ECFA. We communicated it once to our donors. We put it out in a newsletter. Why in the age of, like, such noise, busy communication- Sure ... all that, like, why do we need to find more and creative ways- Aaron Mercer: Yeah to communicate this? Yeah. Yeah, just 'cause you said something once doesn't mean that- People are going to remember that. I mean Michael Martin: How many times do we need to say it? Aaron Mercer: Well, I was gonna say, I, Michael, you and I are both, we're both dads, too. I mean, how often do you have to say the same thing to your- That's right your kids over and over, but you have to say things to get it, get it to stick. Um, and in the case of a ministry or a church, um, first of all, you've gonna have, you're gonna have new donors come [00:32:00] in or new congregants come in, um, and there'll be people who haven't heard what you've said before, and just 'cause you said it before, maybe even just 'cause you said it a year ago, doesn't mean that someone's gonna remember it, um, remember that now. So it's good to, to remind folks. Um, so maybe f- as far as the ECFA seal goes, if you were sending out a, for example, I'm not saying that they need to do this, but if, for example, sending out a donor communication, well, maybe you put it in there, "This is, we are ECFA accredited. Here's what that means. Um, and here's why we care about it. We want to be, we want you to know that we are, we value your trust. We also want our community to know that we want to build a community of integrity and trust, um, and that's something that we value so much that we put the effort into getting this, uh, third-party accountability, um, stamp of approval, essentially, accreditation." And, um But yes, to your point, it's not a one-and-done thing. You've gotta, you gotta keep talking about it. Michael Martin: That's [00:33:00] right. Well, one of the other places that ECFA keeps talking about it, now I'm gonna ask you to turn your hat to one of, one of the other hats that Aaron wears on the ECFA team, which is in the realm of public policy. Mm. Um, I know I've been with you in rooms in very significant offices in Capitol Hill where, uh, as legislation is being considered, I mean, lawmakers are looking at ECFA data, organizations that are part of ECFA, that are committed to doing things with excellence, with integrity. Um, I've been in those rooms where it matters. Mm. And so I would love to hear just more of your perspective on, uh, the importance of organizations. I think that's one piece of, you know, when we talk about a world that's watching, 50 years ago, big motivation for ECFA to form. But that's still true today, right? Aaron Mercer: Yes, absolutely. Uh, the accountability standards that we have today matter, and, uh, that, the, [00:34:00] the ministries that want to be part of that matter. And yes, um, there's a number of, uh, there's a number of folks in the public policy world who care about how, you know, how are ECFA members doing things and what, you know... First of all, I mean, certainly on, even on the data front, we do an annual state of giving, uh, report, and people wanna know, like, how, how are folks in that ministry world doing? How is giving going? What are some of the lessons we can learn in that, from that? So for, basically, you know, r- that's more raw data type of, and what are lessons that can be extrapolated from that. But the, the voice, um, of ECFA, and, um, ECFA members is, is also important. And, um, again, ministries and churches that are committed to trust, committed to integrity, and, um- You know, the question can easily become why, okay? But obviously it seems like you, you are. [00:35:00] And then, um, well, what do you think about, I mean, what- whatever, name your subject, but what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And, um, that's an important witness to have. It's an important witness to have in the, in the world that we, we live in. And, you know, one of the things that we've... One of the things I think that sets ECFA apart, too, on ECFA Ministry as a

member ministry is, um, there was a study, um, I believe it was 20- 24, but a Gallup study about how the trust has just really plummeted in, in the church, you know, in churches and by extension, um, religion in general. Um, and, uh, I, I can't remember if it was Gallup or someone else, actually. Gallup. Yeah. It was a guy who had the... There was a, there was a... It essentially was talking about today's crisis of confidence, um, that it- said it would be a pandemic or something, that, that sort of language, uh, of where, of, of trusted institutions at this point That's where a [00:36:00] lot of these organizations can be set apart. They're taking proactive steps to say, w- we want to be organizations that can be trusted, to be shown that we can be trusted. Um, and the more organizations that do that, I think the better, and that, that shine, that by itself shines a light, um, more broadly in our culture, and it's something that needs to continue to grow. So again, like, if there's anyone listening to this right now who wants to be an ECFA member and wants to be a part of that community, I think that, you know, contact us and be c- be part of that community, and know that, um, the ECFA team, we have an, we have a, an awesome team, um, and a lot of accountants on our team, but they want, they want... They're here, they're part of this ministry 'cause they want to help those members, um, get to that goal of being able to show that they are ministries of accountability, that they're churches of accountability, and, um, they've met those robust standards and they can tell that, tell that not only to their [00:37:00] donors, but to their communities. Um, so I don't know if that, that... I'm not sure if I'm answering your question with that one, but Michael Martin: that, yeah. No, absolutely. And again, it just reminds me of the, coming back to that scriptural anchor again of John 17. Mm. I think being in those rooms, you know, with lawmakers who would look and say, "Wow," you know? There's all of these organizations that not just independently, like, want to do what's right, but collectively come together, and what a witness that is. Um, and I, I do think it speaks to a temptation that some organizations may have to just kinda go it alone, where it's like, oh, well if we're transparent on our own, or we're doing these things over here and we know that we're doing what's right. Uh, I guess it, it also makes me think of the 2 Corinthians 8 that you talked about earlier, too, of, um, not only doing what's right in the eyes of God- Mm ... but also in the eyes of man. Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Michael Martin: And the public policy arena is certainly one of those places. Um, well, there's so much more that we [00:38:00] could talk about, but I wanna land on this one, too, coming back full circle to just going behind the seal, going behind the seal with Aaron. Like, think, thinking about, um- I love your heart, not just the work that you do, but also the heart in which you do it. And as we talk about the, the culture of ECFA, this idea of building organizations up, the light and the witness that ECFA is trying to be, like, speak just from Aaron's heart. Like, as you think about the kind of culture that ECFA is trying to build, how would you describe it and why is it, why is it important? Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Michael Martin: Why does it motivate you to do what you do every day? Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Um, well, I w- I mean, I would say ECFA, um, again, we're working to build a broader culture of integrity, um, a, a broader culture where that, that formation is happening, um, uh, a- and within organizations and, um [00:39:00] I love that ECFA, first of all, is committed to that and in the way in which it, it works in that, uh, year in and year out with... And, and, and beyond that. We have regular contact with a lot of, a lot of our ministries. Um, I also love how ECFA works hard to model that as a team itself. And, um, you know, we, we work hard to try to s- support the fellow, m- you know, as staff looking out for each other, and thank you, Michael, for leading the way on that. Um, but modeling for, for our churches and ministries and know this is how we as a team can be united and working together and, um, caring for each other and, um, helping each other, uh, move the ball forward for the... For ECFA's mission, our mission is to enhance trust in the churches and ministries that are part of our organization, and we work to do that so that the organizations that we're supporting can, as you said, um, accountability accelerates the gospel, that, that [00:40:00] idea. Um, s- but I love that ECFA is working to, um, not only, you know, preach the, talk the talk, but also walk the walk and really model the way with how our team interacts amongst itself, um, and, uh, tries to model those, the standards. Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, may God help us- Yeah, amen ... continue to do that. Yeah. Thank you for your kind words and just all of your hard work. If there's folks who are listening that have, you know, public affairs questions for ECFA or questions about resources, how do they get in touch with you? Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, I'd love to talk to, um, our, you know, our members, or if there are others watching this podcast, um, I'm Aaron Mercer at EC- here at ECFA, and aaron@ecfa.org. Um, and, uh, you know, would love to be talking to folks. But you can also just go on our... If you don't wanna talk to me right away, I mean, I'd always take the conversation. But if you don't want to, you can, even if you check out on our, our website, uh, we have a number of, [00:41:00] um, we have news articles that keep folks informed of what's going on in DC and, and, um, in public policy in general. Uh, we also have a whole knowledge center where we have a, a host of resources, um, on, um, practical questions that relate to each one of, uh, the seven standards of accountability that we, that ECFA has. So if people wanna talk about things related to board governance or, you know, why do I need an independent board, or how do we go about leader care, or, you know, things like that, um, there are resources there that are, are there to, to be helpful. So, um, and I'd be glad to Be of help myself too. Michael Martin: Yeah. It's a shame we just scratched the surface on that- ... 'cause I was just thinking that's a huge way that ECFA helps build up, as we were talking about earlier- Yeah ... uh, part of our ministry of building up the church, not just through accreditation, but also resources. Yeah. So thank you, uh, for all your hard work, uh, and the rest of our team, too. It is a growing library of resources, and we're [00:42:00] grateful. Aaron Mercer: Well, thanks for the opportunity to be on here, Michael. This has been a wonderful conversation. Ryan Gordon (Producer): Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.