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your life. And I think Somewhere along the way that pattern of the few beers after the game, that pattern of hey, let's have a fun Saturday night became a crutch and then it became escape and then it became a compulsion. And so when I got into my late thirties and forties, I was I had a problem. You know, I I was a periodic binge drinker who was tempting fate. I was still waking up at five o'clock in the morning. I was still hitting the gym. I was really trying to be competitive, you know, in all aspects of my life at work. But I was beginning to lie to myself and pr using those things to pretend that I didn't have a problem and that these situations that crept up where I was beginning to have consequences or that I was narrowly avoiding serious consequences, I was lying to myself. And it was starting to affect my profession. It was starting to affect my relationship with my wife. But I was really good at lying to myself. I was really good at lying to myself. I was very good at forgetting ⁓ the the bad consequences or the bad feelings. ⁓ and I was in complete denial from the perspective of once upon a time that in my mind's eye, I was a person of strong character, I was a person of discipline, I was a person of achievement, and I was a person that I thought. where I wanted to be a person people respected. And I wasn't that. And so there was, you know, an outing to a sport event, and I was coming back to the city, and I was getting off the bus and I tumbled right down the steps and hit head first on the the sidewalk and knocked myself out. And I woke up in the hospital. You know, like on a gurney in a hallway. with a massive headache. And the immediate thing I thought ⁓ was ⁓ the picture of my daughter's face. And you know, I can guys I can rarely tell this story without my eyes welling up, ⁓ because it's it's still powerful. ⁓ cliff: That's why I asked you, Chris, to start with it because I've heard it before and and and and it it it's so and and Chris it helped me. Right? Like like these stories are so powerful because you woke up. Right? And all those things you said, Chris, about the guy that you wanted to be, just so you know, as someone who's known you since I was eighteen years old, you were that guy. Right? And and and and the disease Christoph: Yeah. cliff: takes that away from us for a brief period of time. But you're that guy and more now. Of course you are, right? So so you come to, you see this vision, right? Christoph: Yeah. So I I come I come to and ⁓ the the picture of my daughter's face ⁓ r was right there. And when you see a three year old's face, they have ⁓ the baby fat and they have the small features and it's this overwhelming innocence and vulnerability. And so The feeling where if I had left this poor child without a father who And my wife without a husband to raise her. You know, that that shame was too much. And so ⁓ in that moment it was it was f physically painful. It was emotionally rendering this like the the soul out

of me. It was just ⁓ a vice. And so I had to sign out and you know, I remember the nurse just looking at me like, Don't you should Maybe you should probably stop drinking and I was just walked out ⁓ into the streets of New York and I got in a cab to go home and man that clarity of all the fog, all the lies, all all the self deceit, ⁓ were were burned away. Like they were burned away. and you know, I I got home and my wife was up and she just looked at me and I said, ⁓ man, you know. I I'll I'll have to prove it to you. Because, you know, I had said, Yeah, you know, I'll I'll take care of this. You know, I'm sorry. But I just said, Look, I I'll I'll prove I've I've got to prove this to you And so, you know, that next day, you know, I went ⁓ to ⁓ morning call. ⁓ no not morning call. ⁓ shoot, it must have been first things first, ⁓ uptown. ⁓ cliff: Had you had you been to a meeting before, Chris? Christoph: So, you know, it's it's yes, I had. ⁓ so let's see, that was two thousand sixteen, ⁓ when I ⁓ went to that meeting ⁓ when I knocked myself out. But I had my wife and I got married in two thousand eight. And so coming up to our wedding, you know, she's like, you know, Chris, you and your friends ⁓ don't drink normally. And I was like, Ha that's true. You know, you know Badge of honor, you know, ⁓ us guys, right? ⁓ she goes, No, no, no, no. This ⁓ y you you just don't drink normally. I I would love for you to see somebody. In fact, you know what, ⁓ I'm gonna have to make make that a requirement. ⁓ so I went to see a counselor, ⁓ with a you know, drinking or addiction specialist and ⁓ We probably had a couple months of once-a-week meetings to explore, you know, my relationship with alcohol. And It's f funny how these things happen. You know, she introduced the the big book to me and I was like, ⁓ man, this stuff is corny as shit. and right and and w what's interesting is that and you know, this will make sense. I was just like, you know what? I just need a little bit more discipline. What has happened to me? You know, I've gotten soft, I lost my discipline, I need to cliff: What an order. I can't go through with it. Brandon: You cliff: Yeah. Self knowledge. There's the answer. Yeah. Yeah. Christoph: I need to I need to get some more ambitious goals, you know, that really take my attention and effort and time and that will set me on the right track, right? ⁓ cliff: Well yeah, Chris, because you had been able to fix it always before. Right? L like, you know, you can train harder, right? You can study harder, you can get the next job. You checked all those boxes forever. Right? Christoph: Yeah, right. Yeah. So I so I you know, ⁓ half heartedly went to a couple of meetings. ⁓ but you know what is there's something subconsciously that that tells you you're in the right place, right? That this is something the some place that you'll end up eventually. But I was so actively trying to tell myself that I didn't need it. So, you know, periodically if I had a

a rough evening or You know, if I was feeling uncomfortable about ⁓ you know, my drinking, I would drop into these places and I'd sit in the back and I would hear the stories and a lot of times I'd come out and I'd say, Man, these guys are had really have sh some tough lives. They've gone through some gone through the ringer, right? They really put themselves in bad places. Here I am just hung over. cliff: Yeah those poor guys. Yeah. Must suck to be them. Christoph: Yeah. Yeah. Like just going to hear the horror stories to make sure that I wasn't you know, but of course I was just you know in denial. So I was I knew where to go, you know, and you know, we have we all have friends who have been in the program for a long time. So I I would reach out to them periodically, ⁓ and, you know, kind of pretend that I was adjacent. You know, not like, Hey guys, I need help. You know, it's like, Hey, you know, tell me about what's going on. You know, I I think I need to, you know, regain my discipline. I I don't know how I phrased it, but you know, that's the way I would do it. So when shit hit the fan and my head hit the pavement. You know, I knew where to go and I knew who to connect with. And, you know, it was funny because I remember that first week ⁓ seeing it seeing Trey at Morning Call, you know, in West Forty Si ⁓ forty six. And he's like, Chris, you know, he's like, ninety to ninety. Gotta do it. I was like, yeah, it's gonna be painful. But ⁓ s I I did it ninety and ninety and I remember ⁓ you know the days, you know raising my hand, you know, who's counting days and saying, you know, seventeen and thirty two and forty six and eighty and those ninety days I still had the What felt like the bruises and the scars and the cold sweat and the act of sh shame that seemed to you know follow me around to this like crown of you know, disaster, right? Because you j I just felt it. You know, ⁓ you know, like how long is it gonna take for me to earn the momentum or the strength or to to sandblast the the the pain of these memories away. A and how long will it take me to revive my my reputation, my feeling of honor, you know. So like that was man, I can I still remember that. ⁓ Brandon: You mentioned Chris, like a cone of shame, and we talked in one of our previous episodes about shame being an ally of the addiction. ⁓ How did you release that shame? How did you let go of that? Because shame is a story we tell ourselves that we're bad people, and we're not. We're just sick people trying to get well. Christoph: Yeah. You know, it was like This day by day, you know, building each block of each brick of a foundation. y and a a mantra of I'm doing the right thing. you know, and also I I ⁓ combined it with ⁓ other acts. So, you know, digging into the program was a a start. Brandon: Mm-hmm. Christoph: Right. So it's stopping the drinking is just a first step, but I had to really learn how to live. You know, I had to acquire the tools to allow me to identify ⁓ the humility, the gratitude, ⁓ the to understand how to live with purpose, the joy of paying it forward, ⁓ and being of service. ⁓ but other acts like I had started off reading to my daughter every night. So like she was two days old and had a little book and I had the little tiny tot right here and I would read to her. Well that persisted until she was twelve, until you know, homework got in the way. So I I I carried that on. ⁓ I just didn't miss any nights because I was out drinking. You know, and I taught her how to swim, ⁓ took her to swimming lessons, taught her how to ride a bike, you know, ⁓ taught her how to water ski, ⁓ you know, how to throw the crossball. ⁓ Brandon: Right. Right. Christoph: ⁓ yeah. So I think it was i esteemable acts in and building the confidence through ⁓ good works. ⁓ Brandon: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's one of my favorite quotes from the program is if you want self-esteem, do esteemable acts. That's so helpful. You mentioned your daughter being 12 and in your story, I think you said, did you get drunk before your 13th birthday? Yeah, wow, so how did that happen? I mean, to me, that's pretty young. I had my first drink probably at 15. Was it just you were curious and you found it in your house or? Christoph: Yes. Right. The night before my thirteenth birthday. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. ⁓ I moved to Boston when I was eight years old and the first day of third grade, you know, this kid comes up and says, Hey new kid, do you think you're tough? I bet I could wail on ya. And Winchester is, you know, a Winchester's You know, the town I grew up in is not too far from cliffs. We played against each other in high school. But you know, there was fair to say there was a a cultural attitude that, you know cliff: It sounds like Boston. Yeah. Brandon: Yeah. Christoph: Drinking was the main sport and that pervaded the culture of the town. And so ⁓ my natural ⁓ itchiness ⁓ as a kid, you know, ⁓ r restless ⁓ ne my my restlessness ⁓ found a home in in terms of, you know, ⁓ one of my buddies, we we all had a sleepover and, you know, he was his parents were big drinkers and so, you know, we took some out of the liquor cabinet. ⁓ and I remember my mother made boiled beef and carrots because that's what ended up on the sleeping bag next to me in the morning. Brandon: no. Christoph: ⁓ my god. Yeah. So it it's funny because I've I felt like you know ⁓ I look at my daughter and now she's thirteen and she's growing like a weed. and you know, she's a New York City kid. ⁓ and in in ways she's vastly more sophisticated than me and and I think ⁓ but there's not that same culture of of alcohol ⁓ consumption or But you know, ⁓ you know, we've started to talk about, you know, the realities of of drinking because you can't walk down a New York City street and not see, you know, the carnage of what addiction does to people, you know. And so ⁓ you know, I I've I've started to have those those conversations with her, but it's ⁓ yeah, looking back,

twelve years old, wow, it's just what a waste. I mean, it's just simply too young. I mean it you're Brandon: so young. Christoph: Your brains aren't formed, your bodies aren't grown and you know, you're already poisoning yourself and stunting your your emotional growth. cliff: Yeah, the the Yeah, all of the data, right? If if you look at you know, behaviors that increase the odds of ⁓ addiction, alcoholism later in life, you know, there there's a strong hereditary component. But y drinking young, right? It's like, you know, eight X, twelve X, the likelihood. You know, our brains aren't developed until we're twenty five, twenty six years old. And there's so much going on already. ⁓ pouring that on top of it. I know, for me it was thirteen. Similar culture, Chris, right? And And you know, you you vomited, right? Your mother's boiled beef and carrots. And and I had a a horrible incident in seventh grade that, you know, led to tremendous embarrassment and ⁓ and and yet I came back to it, man. Right? Like we we we the signs were there early for us, but you know, cunning, baffling, and powerful. So Chris, I it like I I love and and I wanna thank you truly for like a as a father of three sons, every time I hear your story about your daughter and that being the light, it's really inspiring. And you know, so a couple of things. Number one, I was told when I was struggling by a guy that I really respect, he was like, Look, you got a wife, three kids, like You can't do it for them. You gotta do it for you. and and and there's gotta be something that wakes up within you. People that do it for a job, people that do it for whatever. So I'd love to hear you talk about that, Chris. And before I forget too, I wanna talk about the family disease a little bit. And and for me, it's so clear now that there's a tremendous history of alcoholism and mental health in my family on both sides. Never knew that, but we'll get to that second. Christoph: Mm-hmm. cliff: So Chris, did you at some point, right? Like your daughter was the initial inspiration, right? Did that carry you, or did you at some point say, you know what, man? Like I'm doing that like and pride is a dangerous thing, but it feels good, right? To to I mean Christoph: Yes. cliff: Like being able to say I've recovered from alcoholism is awesome for for our self esteem. So talk about that initial inspiration, what carried you or at some point did it say, Yeah man, I'm doing this for Chris. Christoph: Yeah, sure. Yeah. having some sense knocked into me was was great. ⁓ and having that that visceral, very ⁓ powerful emotional motivation was what I need to get started. And and then you know, I spoke about ⁓ it being the first step, right? Just putting down the drink is is gives you the chance. ⁓ learning how to live is is what I needed. And So that was that was an interesting process. And I think one of these concepts of you can't do it for anybody else or anything else. You've got to do it for yourself. And I think as I evolved, and I don't know if there w there was not a specific time or event or ⁓ number of years, I think it was a slow realization of of of clarity. ⁓ and I of let me be more specifically articulate. Clarity in that I couldn't rely upon external motivation to keep myself sober. It had to be entirely organic. And I think what became the most powerful things for me was just ⁓ developing an intuition about the Not that I was arrogant and better than somebody else and pounding my chest, but I was arrogant in my folly of ⁓ thinking I had control. And thinking that I was strong enough, or somehow I was powerful enough to determine my life against all other forces. ⁓ and that that's not true. And so the humility where I'm just subject to the randomness of life. Good, bad, ugly, terrible, or unimaginably wonderful. You know, and so releasing that and having the humility of, hey, you know, I'm just I'm just here and I've got to make the most of it. And let me be grateful for all that I'm so fortunate to have, you know, ⁓ a sound, a sound brain, a sound body you know, ⁓ a network of people and family that love me, the opportunity to to work, ⁓ the opportunity to be of service. And the collection of these things, I think, at some point, ⁓ all of them together, I was like, shoot, you know what, this is this this is this is it, right? I mean, this is the stuff that adds up to ⁓ being the justification for for my motivation. ⁓ because it it would be a shame to to waste it because I was so fortunate to be to have it. ⁓ and I think that was that was the concept. And you know it's like ⁓ I had to I had to also understand the odds I was against, right? Because fatal alcoholism just l is littered through the family tree on all sides. ⁓ both parents, back generations. ⁓ and so you know, once I came to understand that history, shit. I mean I was destined to it. I mean, ⁓ there was no, hey, what if I didn't do this then? Or where what if I went to a different college or you know, I think it was inevitable and so I shouldn't have worried. about it because I could now that I look back, you know, the dominoes were were falling falling ⁓ you know, at an early age. cliff: As so you you hit the the family history thing, so there there is some there. ⁓ has anyone in your family ever recovered, Chris, before? Christoph: ⁓ that's that's a good question. cliff: And I share that because ⁓ my family ⁓ we talk about ending cycles and it's hard to do. And it's amazing it if we have the opportunity to do that. and I've seen people stop drinking, right? I've seen people white knuckling it, ⁓ but real recovery is different. And you have it, Chris. I I know that, right? Like you're one of those if you've desired you want what we have, guys, right? Like recovery looks really good. ⁓ is that new for your family? Christoph: Yeah, I think I think it is. I was just thinking through you know, there are uncles and grandparents and great grandparents who died. ⁓ I've got a few

cousins who are white knuckling it or I one I've kind of lost track of he was in jail first you know substance abuse related issues. ⁓ but I I don't know if anybody's actually in recovery. You know, I think there was ⁓ real active denial I know from you know certain parts of the family where ⁓ this is just doesn't exist. You know, ⁓ like just pretend, you know, in the face of obviousness, right? but Yeah, no, I it it is. ⁓ I hadn't reali I hadn't hadn't thought about that context, Cliff. ⁓ cliff: Yeah, I think it's it it's a an amazing accomplishment, truly, right? Like to be able to say that I'm a person in long term recovery from alcoholism or addiction and ⁓ we have a fellowship ⁓ that I think there's a risk of us kind of normalizing it and saying, ⁓ yeah, this happened. It doesn't happen often. It really doesn't. If you look at The data I I've heard that, you know, one in ten people struggle with addiction. In our country alone, that would be thirty, thirty-five million people. I know that ⁓ AA claims two or three million members globally. So look at those numbers, right? Like it it it's a small group, unfortunately. and then you know there there's obviously we could be here for a long time talking about what does recovery really mean. ⁓ so anyway. Christoph: Tiny. Brandon: I'd love to dive into this topic of breaking the cycle because I mean, my family is riddled with addiction as well and I really don't want my kids to go through that. And I think breaking the cycle ⁓ assumes that there's a hereditary or a nature component and then also a nurture component, right? And so the former you can't influence, like that's a given, but the latter you can. ⁓ cliff: Yeah. Brandon: What can we do as parents to break the cycle, to ensure that our kids, they're gonna be exposed to alcohol, drugs, and other things that are addictive, ⁓ that they don't pick up and start using and numb out and fall into the same trap that we did? And I don't have the answer, ⁓ but I'm all ears. ⁓ Christoph: Yeah. Brandon: because this is probably the most important question for me. Yeah. Christoph: Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting why you said that. ⁓ I was thinking back to ⁓ something that was mentioned earlier, ⁓ So I was thinking about the some feelings that I had growing up, which were ⁓ shyness, ⁓ fear of embarrassment, shame, you know, cultural traditions where you didn't admit that you had a problem or or that there was any issues because it was you know, you don't talk about that stuff. So I think the combination of those things ⁓ you know, played a part in in the evolution of of of you know, my my alcohol abuse. ⁓ because at inflection points where you know, I I often dis I often dis describe, you know, that my arc of alcohol use and abuse as my soul being watered down and washed away. And, you know, I have these kind of ⁓ Points of comparison where I think it was like ninth grade, I was looking out the window of math class to the to the sports fields, and I was super excited to get out there. And I was thinking ⁓ you know, about the competition and the fun with my teammates and, you know, whether a certain couple girls were gonna come and watch the game that weekend. The sense of possibility, the sense of excitement of the world being big and just I needed to you know, there was so much out there. Was I I remember that feeling, right? So fast forward, you know, at the end of my drinking, that was gone. And I didn't have any sense of possibility. I didn't have any ⁓ expectation of joy or adventure. You know, it was it was done. I I was washed out and I was hopeless. And so Brandon: Mm-hmm. Christoph: didn't happen overnight. And so you know, when I look at my daughter, I try to talk to her. You know, I try to keep a close, open ⁓ rapport. ⁓ but I also am slightly re relieved because she's ⁓ she she's a rugged critter and she is very spoken about her the way she feels and and she's not afraid to to to to be vulnerable and to assert and say, hey, I have a question. Look, you know, I I need I need to figure this out. I I don't know the answer or you know, the the shyness and the fear of raising your hand and looking stupid doesn't exist. And so I it gives me some comfort, you know, w with her. Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I heard ⁓ asking for help, vulnerability, feeling your feelings, naming your emotions. I think you're really onto something there. cliff: Yeah, Brandon, I think same, right? Like, ⁓ there there's nothing like being in the throes of addiction is being in hell, right? It's horrible. I look back and and you know, in in in The disease is so insidious, right? Like that your brain is different. You don't know when you're in it, but then you come out of it a little bit and you look back and it was like it was a living hell. And we wouldn't wish that on anyone, our worst enemy, in in huge fear that, you know, one of our our our children would go through something like that. Yet we know there's a genetic component, there's a hereditary component. Have you guys heard of the concept of of ⁓ or this thing of ⁓ ASCOR, adverse childhood experiences? Christoph: No. cliff: So that there's a huge correlation, right, with with you know substance use and substance use disorder and a high ACE score. So ACE is a measurement of adverse childhood experiences. So violence in the home, right, sexual abuse, right, inconsistency, a drunk parent, right, would contribute to that. So ⁓ I think that part of it is if we look at the environment. We create for our children, right? And if Chris is talking about his open communication, right, and showing up and being consistent, my hope is that that contributes to a lesser likelihood that these people will seek relief. When I look back, I didn't even know. Like, man, I was seeking relief from some stuff. Brandon: Hmm. Yeah. cliff: that that though that stuff was revealed with a therapist when I was forty eight years old. Right? I I don't think there's a lot of people who

end up in the throes of addiction because they like to get fucked up. Pardon my French. They just like partying. You know what I mean? And spending time in the rooms, it always seems like there's some sort of trauma. There's some sort of thing. And I think also those of us who are highly sensitive, me empaths, right? And we know that those are a lot of the people who get this thing. So that gives me hope with with the sense that we can hopefully create a a nurturing, loving, consistent environment for these young people. I I hope that reduces the likelihood. But I know they got it in ⁓ though too, right? So Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. cliff: It it's weird. So so my my I have three sons. My youngest son is the one that that worries me the most. Chris, you talked about restless irritable discontent. This dude like he can't sit still. Right? And and like he's good after he like works out for three hours, you know? Right? So does that make sense? Right. Brandon: Hmm Christoph: Yeah, sure. Yeah, totally. Brandon: Yeah, yeah. Were you guys, when you grew up, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want you to verbalize it. Did you learn that men were stoic and did not show emotion? Christoph: ⁓ sure. ⁓ absolutely. ⁓ Brandon: Yeah. Cliff. cliff: Yeah, yeah, not not so my dad was young. ⁓ and my dad went to college in the late sixties. ⁓ flower power hippie movement, which was really, really good for my dad. ⁓ because he grew up in an environment where he didn't get much emotional support from his father. My dad kind of swung the other way, and my dad told me how much he loved me. My dad would kiss me on the lips, which was different, right? So Brandon: Hmm. cliff: Now that said, my dad in later years struggled with the disease and he did not express that at all. Right. ⁓ and and there is something, Brandon, it's interesting. My my middle son just broke up, but he and his girlfriend of three years broke up and and and we were really surprised. They were great together, and he's a smart kid and ⁓ he's got a lot going on. ⁓ Really bright future. And my wife and I are concerned about him. He's twenty years old. When I ask him how he's doing, good. Give me more. Come on. Like you know? ⁓ so I don't know man. Is that it is is that a a gender thing? Is it a cultural thing? Is it I don't know. I don't know. Brandon: Yeah, right, right. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. Christoph: Okay. Brandon: Yeah, I just, know I was taught to stuff my emotions and I think a lot of my drinking and using was just because I had all these feelings in me that I didn't want to feel. And so I numbed from them. And I remembered like this item, you know, has been on my four step inventory since I had kids of fear that my, kids will become addicts. And my sponsor had such a great response. The last time we did a fist step, said, yeah, but you're providing a, an environment where it's safe for them to feel their feelings. And he doesn't have kids. I just thought that was so profound that he knew that. I mean, he sponsored dozens of people, but, um, I do think that that's another. contributing factor, you know, that might also reduce that ACE score that you mentioned, Cliff. Yeah. cliff: Yeah, I think ⁓ Chris mentioned culture, right? And ⁓ Brandon, I've learned a ton from you, right, about intimacy. And that word for me always had meant like a sexual relationship with a female, right? And we can have intimacy right with with relationships. And like being kind, being tender, loving, thoughtful. Th those were things that thirteen year old boy growing up where I grew up were not really encouraged. Right? In fact, almost like you were soft. And and that that's so sad, right? Because it took me Brandon: Yeah. cliff: getting mangled and Chris you probably agree like Chris you guys are awesome guys like you're very loving kind thoughtful guys like why would you ever not be excited that those were your God given gifts? Isn't that bizarre? Brandon: Right. Yeah. Yeah. cliff: Chris, do you do you agree? Christoph: You know, it's it's funny clip because I had a lot of the social anxiety about initiating friendships growing up because I I just ⁓ I like I felt afraid of of being vulnerable in that way to express a desire to be friends with somebody, you know, for some reason. Like like it would be seen as weird or soft or or whatever. ⁓ so that that was that was a thing, Yeah, that that was I was ⁓ I would say emotionally stunted from that perspective for for many, many years into into adulthood. And so and you know, all three of us know this, which is being good at sports and being better than average academically, it puts you in situations that are social. And if you achieve people like successful people. And so they you had this ability to socialize default. But I didn't learn how to initiate, express myself, and build relationships through Cliff, what you were saying about being vulnerable, being emotionally honest and vulnerable to develop an intimate relationship, right? And an intimacy is not just sex with a female. It is having a thoughtful, open relationship with somebody, a man or a woman, right? And and You know, it's it's interesting because I feel like that is an aspect of my life that has become so fulfilling in the last ten years of sobriety. Understanding how to communicate with somebody and share life with, you know, ⁓ to identify, to ⁓ ex you know, to to share, to ask for help, to to to say, you know, to talk about things that you need to get off your chest or to ask somebody, Hey, how are you? You know, ⁓ you know, are you doing okay? And to be able to have a thoughtful, engaged conversation and relationship, ⁓ to give back. ⁓ cliff: Well, Chris, I have good news. You're coming up on twenty-two or twenty three years old. 'Cause they say that our emotional growth, our emotional sobriety, right, like they say when when we become active we stop growing emotionally. Right? And and when my solution to, you know,

wanting to feel different, right, or do something about these feelings is to drink. ⁓ we don't grow emotionally, right? So Christoph: Right. Brandon: you cliff: That's weird. We're young in that way. And I I I always talk about this. I love ⁓ Bill Wilson talks about emotional sobriety a ton. And the collection of his writings for the grapevine is called the language of the heart. Right. And he talked about like learning that in sobriety, right? And so many people never get that, man. Even normies, right? Like so it's awesome. Brandon: Right? Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Really is. And I think that what we're doing here, I mean, I would call this an intimate conversation. And you know, the fact, Chris, that you led with that story about seeing your daughter's face and even got emotional today telling you it, and I've heard you tell it before and get it, I saw you get emotional. I mean, that's vulnerable. That's really vulnerable. And that's not the type of masculinity that... that I grew up with, but it's the type of man that I wanna be now. ⁓ Yeah. Christoph: Right. You know, it's interesting. you know, Cliff mentioned ⁓ you know, being an empath or you know, I'm I'm similar. I I feel people's emotions and and sometimes that that can be difficult, right? Because you you you bear it. ⁓ and it informs my personality in terms of the way I deal with people and interact. And ⁓ it's interesting because I recognized my father ⁓ was very stoic And he's a an incredible organizer and delegator and was always in positions ⁓ you know, professionally as you know, directing big projects and making sure everybody did this and did that and on time and you know, with consequence. And, you know, that's the way he treated us. I mean he he was expressive verbally, say, Hey, you know, love you guys, but his philosophy was very ⁓ concise. Work hard and be a good person. Other than that, you know, you're at arm's length. The intimacy was not there. And so when I was in my forties, you know, getting sober, I said, you know what? I've got to change this. I've got to work to build an intimate relationship with my parents, particularly my dad. And that was it took ⁓ it took a long time. ⁓ because for him to understand that it's you don't need to put on a ⁓ a a different voice and say, you know, how are you this morning? You know what I mean? Because as a dad, you know, you can as a please don't use that voice with me. Because I'm not somebody you're gonna delegate a work pract ⁓ task to, you know and and he just didn't know how to do it. It wasn't that the desire was he had buried ⁓ his Brandon: You Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Christoph: himself under a a deep, deep shell. Because come to find out, his his childhood was had ⁓ a lot of family violence, ⁓ where he had to develop ⁓ defense mechanisms, right? And so takes a long time to unwind that. And I think ⁓ you know, over these last ten years, you know, we've we've evolved. And so I you know, I speak to my parents and they're in their mid eighties, a a couple of mornings a week. We have great conversations, you know, ⁓ about current events, about being about being parents, you know, about their their grandchild or my my child, ⁓ about our relationships and you know, as they f as they face you know, the health challenges ⁓ of being eighty year olds, ⁓ you know, it you can have better conversations when you're when you're intimate, right? ⁓ So, you know, I shared a joke with him by Mel Brooks, right? He says, Relax, relax, right? Nobody's getting out of here alive. So the inevitability of our mortality is truth, right? There's no getting around it. And so let's not worry about that. Let's let's make sure that we have the right tone of conversation and honesty and and caring in the way we treat each other and a and as we live together. And so Brandon: Hahaha. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that, I love that, because we talked about breaking the cycle, you know, hopefully stopping the addiction from passing down the family tree, but you're also healing up the family tree. Yeah. Christoph: Yeah, for sure. cliff: This the th th this is one of the best things I've heard, Chris, honestly. Like in and Brandon: Yeah. cliff: I didn't get that shot with my dad, man. Right? Like when I asked you, Chris, like you the first one to have recovered. ⁓ what a what a gift, man, that you get to like share this with your family and you have the courage to go upstream. That that that takes a lot. Like I'm gonna teach my dad some stuff. And ⁓ and he's been open to that, man. Like how be that's like ending Brandon: Yeah. cliff: a cycle to another level man. I love it. That that's so awesome. Brandon: Yes, it is. Well, Chris, this has been an amazing conversation as we knew it would be. Thank you so much for being here. ⁓ To our listeners, I just want to say if you like what you heard today, please subscribe. If you have any feedback or you want to leave us a comment, do so or email us at hosts at dadsimrecovery.com. And we're always looking for new guests. So if you want to come on and share your own experience, strength and hope as a dad in recovery, ⁓ please do so. ⁓ Again, email us at host at dadsinrecovery.com. And ⁓ Chris, I'm not sure if we got to forewarn you, but the custom of this podcast is to end each recording with a dad joke. Do you want to tell us a dad joke? The worse, the better. You Christoph: ⁓ my God. You know what? I don't know if I have one, but you know what? According to my daughter, you know, I've got plenty of In fact, all of any joke I ⁓ my God. ⁓ Brandon: You Yeah, I'm sorry to put you on the spot. Christoph: ⁓ let's see. Let me let me see if I can pull one up. ⁓ No, I'm s probably so shell shocked from telling jokes and having people react to them that I don't carry any around. ⁓ my god. What is a baby computer s call his father? Data. Brandon: What? cliff: ⁓ God. Brandon: That's a great one. That is a great one. Christoph: ⁓ my god, guys, thanks for having me on. This is so much fun. ⁓ it's always a pleasure. cliff: ⁓ Chris, you're awesome, man. Very, very inspiring, my friend. This has been great. Yeah, love you too, Chris. All right, see you guys. Brandon: Thanks for being here, man. Yeah. Christoph: Yeah, love you guys. Appreciate it. Take care. Brandon: Absolutely. Love you too, man. Take care. Bye.