النص الكامل لحلقة Avoidant Attachment

00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:46.000 Avoid the noid. 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:46.960 Remember that guy? 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:49.039 Avoid the annoyed. 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:49.599 I still remember. 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:51.599 Didn't they make a video game of his? 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:52.159 Yeah. 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.560 That's lost on a lot of our pizza. 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:55.439 Yeah, sorry. 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:55.759 Yeah. 00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:58.319 All of you Gen Zers are listening to this. 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:02.960 So last episode we spent some time unpacking anxious attachment. 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:09.919 That's a pattern characterized by a strong desire for closeness, coupled with a heightened fear of rejection, abandonment, or disconnection. 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:14.800 But today we're going to explore a different response to relational uncertainty. 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:24.879 Rather than moving towards others in search of reassurance, someone with dismissive avoidant attachment may find themselves moving away from others in an attempt to maintain a sense of security. 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:26.319 So let's unpack this one. 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:27.519 So what is, Dr. 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:27.920 Mr. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.879 Mark, what is dismissive avoidant attachment? 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:35.040 Let's let's go back to just the avoidant. 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:35.519 Yeah. 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:39.439 And that is where you're pushing people away, you're avoiding. 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:49.199 You don't want to deal with because somewhere along the line you've come up with this idea within your body and within your mind that relationships are just too much. 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:49.680 Yeah. 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:55.199 And so rather than engage, you avoid. 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:55.759 Mm-hmm. 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:56.399 Mm-hmm. 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:06.959 There's there's certainly been moments in my life when, like right after I've gotten my heart broken or just felt really burned by a friend, uh, definitely just wanted to disconnect from relationships. 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:14.240 Like, yeah, and and so that's a that's a really good point, Walter, because I think that that's a reaction, not a pattern. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:15.040 Right, right, right. 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:22.160 You know, and so we all have that where we're kind of like, you know, I've had enough of this, like not so much with people. 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:28.079 You know, and that you know happens for maybe 24 hours or or maybe a week. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:30.480 Yeah, but then we go back to our normal, right? 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.920 Whatever our norm is, you know, uh attachment style. 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:34.480 Right. 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:41.360 So when people swear off dating um for the 72 hours or so that that usually lasts, that's part of that. 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:42.160 That's a reaction. 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:43.839 Yeah, yeah, that's a reaction. 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.240 Yeah, I'm not gonna How do we understand when reaction turns to pattern? 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:57.680 Well, I think that that when we're talking about attachment styles, we're really talking about something that's come about over a period of time in development. 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:06.639 And so, you know, um, you just see patterns that a person has, you know, like for me, definitely dependent. 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:13.680 It is where I sit a lot of times, but there's also some ambivalence with that, but there's not an avoidance with it. 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:21.600 I I still want to wade into it, you know, and and so it's something that happens, I think, within the first few years of life. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:25.519 Yeah, that's a good direction. 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:27.120 Yeah, I'm wondering what you're thinking. 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:40.240 Um well, I think that I've struggled with avoidance, the con like the the construct for many or a lot of you know, majority of my life, right? 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:46.959 Um and so I'm just trying to unpack where you know the the root maybe of that. 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:51.120 Um what what experience what experience has led to that? 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:52.959 Um has it always been like that? 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:53.600 Like I don't know. 00:06:53.920 --> 00:07:02.959 Yeah, no, I and I think that you know, you by you asking those, those are really valid and really good questions of getting curious and being like, where did this come about? 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:04.319 How did it come about? 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:05.519 Am I comfortable with it? 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:11.839 Yeah, you know, because it's there's that sense when you're talking about that is that you're not particularly comfortable with some of it. 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:13.040 No, definitely. 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:24.160 And I think it but I I'm also wondering if that's just if it's outside of relational, maybe it's just avoidance of like challenging, I don't know, certain things, you know, because there's part of me that does lead into relationships too. 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.120 So thank you for letting me share my TED talk here. 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:27.439 It's good. 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:28.720 No, this has actually been great for me. 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:30.480 I've been this has been like a tennis match for me. 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:32.079 So I'm looking left and right and left and right. 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:33.439 You guys can keep talking the whole time. 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:33.920 This is great. 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:41.279 Yeah, so so that's another good thing is when we're looking at this, when we're looking at attachment styles, we're talking about people. 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:41.600 Right. 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:43.439 We're not talking about situations. 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:49.839 That's all you know, and so when

you've had situations that are too much, you learn to bail out at times. 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:58.319 And when our emotions don't seem to be able to be equipped with handling a situation or or or a person. 00:07:58.480 --> 00:07:58.639 Yeah. 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:02.240 You know, we select based on what we've already experienced. 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:05.680 Yeah. 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:29.759 That's that's our we go into the situation we we're analyzing, we're looking around, we're you know, um, well, and what I would what I would kind of go back to even before that part of it, is that we've experienced certain things and and by default we just go into this is how I deal with relationships based on what relationships have handed me. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:30.480 Yeah. 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:46.399 No, I don't trying to stay on topic, but like I think things you've shared before in some of our like our groups and things like that, it's like the the it's the body though, even has that reaction too, even it's as we don't even know that it's that's happening, right? 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:48.080 Or we don't maybe not aware of that's happening. 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:49.840 Yeah, so the body builds that up too, right? 00:08:50.000 --> 00:09:00.480 Yeah, but by the age of, like I can go to my grandson who is two and a half, he has certain things that he's engaging people with right now that he's not even aware he's doing it. 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:01.840 So, where did he get it from? 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.399 Well, he got it from implicit memories. 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:04.879 That's it. 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:05.679 Yeah. 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:13.600 So I know we talked about this um early on when we were first discussing the idea of attachment styles. 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.720 Um, is like early, well, two questions. 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:25.679 Is early onset trauma, things that happened when you were young, young, something that could dramatically change an attachment style early on? 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:32.480 And then the kind of follow-up is can a trauma in an adult also shift styles? 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:34.639 Or is it something that has to be built up over years? 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:35.519 It's a great question. 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:36.399 That's a great question. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:45.919 I think the first first question, you know, absolutely that dictates our attachment style, what we have experienced, good, bad, and indifferent. 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:59.440 You know, I think that it's interesting because as we get to be in our 20s, let's say, and we have had certain things happen and we have this attachment style or basic attachment styles. 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.039 Something comes along and greets us. 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.759 Well, we greet that with our attachment style. 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.799 And so we accommodate based on our attachment style and we work around it. 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:13.039 Does that make sense? 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:14.960 Yeah, yeah, I think it does. 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.799 Um, and so does that also answer the second question, though, right? 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:27.200 So then you're bringing your existent attachment style into your early 20s and trauma happens, some some sort of trauma bomb goes off in your life. 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:34.960 So then we you're saying we greet that with our attachment style, but does that influence or change what that initial bass style might be? 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.639 Depends on how significant it is, and it depends on who it's with. 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.279 Say more about the who it's with part. 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:46.960 Well, so if it's somebody out on the street, it really doesn't, you know, impact us as deeply. 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:47.279 Right. 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:56.799 If it's uh a spouse and this a major thing happens, you know, that's gonna change some of the way that we relate, possibly. 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:57.120 Yeah. 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:01.759 It depends on on how fixed we are in that attachment style. 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:04.159 Yeah, the the level of connection, right? 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:04.399 Yeah. 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:22.559 You know, I think there's a like you said, some the dude on the street, sure could you could get some trauma from whatever, but like the level of connection, that layered of connection, if it's if it's high level like that, it's gonna I would assume it would change, you know, kind of the way we go about a reframe for us maybe a little bit. 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:30.639 Yeah, and and the other thing is again going back to that whole idea that attachment styles are different with different people. 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:41.919 And so that's something that you know when if you take an attachment style test, they ask you to think about a particular person and and how your relationship is with that person. 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:42.559 Right. 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:44.159 At least a good test. 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.120 The other thing is that there yeah, absolutely. 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:52.960 The the other thing is there's an assumption that attachment styles are fixed and they're not, they can change. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:53.440 Right. 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:53.919 Yeah. 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:55.279 I'm I'm I appreciate that. 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:58.960 We've definitely tried to make that clear in this, these, these episodes. 00:11:59.039 --> 00:11:59.200 Right. 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.080 I think it is very that was kind of eye-opening for me. 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.879 I I kind of ran into it like you have this and you have that, you know. 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:05.919 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:17.120 Yeah, and and so a lot of times people will come to me and they'll be like, Well, this is my attachment style, and this is his attachment style, and it it's

kind of presented in a way like that's it. 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:18.799 And that's not true at all. 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:29.120 Yeah, you know, the process you were talking about, Kirk, because you're talking about having an attachment style, but then thinking through some of it, that'll change it in and of itself. 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:44.000 You know, being bringing about awareness and being like, you know, I am avoidant in certain ways, and so I don't want to be, and so even that process begins to have you look at a different alternative. 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:46.159 Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:53.759 I don't think you'll move from being like avoidant to you know, so so like dependently attached, right? 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:53.919 Right. 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:55.279 But there's gonna be a shift. 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:56.000 Right. 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.720 Yeah, you yeah, it's a a small movement at least. 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:00.799 Interesting. 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:08.000 I'm just that so quantum physics, the just uh uh having a an observer enter a system changes the system. 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:09.679 So that's really interesting. 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:18.960 It just kind of mirrors the fact that you're even aware of of your style and you're starting to think through the things changes um your style and and just kind of kind of how you respond. 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:25.679 Yeah, and and and again going back to when you're around certain people, how does your body feel? 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:34.240 You know, and and you know, being able to question that with different individuals, it's gonna shift and you're gonna feel different. 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:39.759 You know, just just being with that person and bringing awareness to it even shifts it. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:43.279 Yeah, it makes sense. 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:44.879 That's why he's a doctor mister. 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:46.399 That's why he's got both. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.000 But he doesn't have quantum physics down there. 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:50.879 He doesn't have that, yeah. 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:53.279 Somebody else you're about to blow my brain with him. 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:54.480 What a quantum, huh? 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.360 Quantum leap, what a good show. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:11.120 So, from what I understand, dismissive avoidment attachment is generally characterized by a strong emphasis on independence, self-sufficiency, and emotional distance, often accompanied by discomfort with vulnerability or relying upon others. 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:21.600 Um, the individual may value relationships and genuinely care about other people, but emotional closeness can also create feelings of discomfort, of pressure, or a loss of independence. 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:24.879 Um, and I think that it's an important distinction to make from the beginning. 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:29.120 Dismissive avoidant attachment doesn't necessarily mean that someone doesn't want relationships. 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:30.000 Yeah, that's good. 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:30.320 That's good. 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:30.720 Right? 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:35.679 Because I think sometimes you hear avoidant and you're like, okay, they're like a hermit, they live on top of a mountain. 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:38.240 Um that's not necessarily what that is. 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:42.720 It may mean that they've learned that depending upon relationships doesn't always feel safe. 00:14:42.960 --> 00:15:04.879 Yeah, like absolutely can that be trusted type and if my experience has shown that it like can't be because I've been, you know, um harmed, yeah, right, then yes, you the desire is still there, but uh the ability to to move towards it is probably and I think I think we primarily think of it as harmed, right? 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:16.159 Um when I was given that example about like, oh, I'm swearing off dating or whatever, um it it's someone hurt me, um, but I think it's also it bears talking about the fact that it could be grief. 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:21.919 Like someone may not have intentionally hurt you, but they they passed away or or something happened. 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:27.679 And so that could also fuel that without it being like purposeful. 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:29.440 Yeah, that's really good. 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:46.879 Um I was thinking about my own journey, and like my my friend Jay passed away, and I think that I moved into that space a lot where I was I was um maybe subconsciously bit fearful to to create relationships again because of of of that level of loss of somebody. 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.879 Um so there's I'm sure there's a season where I was avoidant in a lot of ways. 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:53.840 Yeah. 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:57.200 Yeah, it's grief. 00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:57.919 Yeah, man. 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.639 It's it causes some huge craters when it hits. 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:11.360 Yeah, and the brain is is something that tries to create patterns or it does create patterns, and so it looks not to be hurt. 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:25.360 And so if there's something that came about that hurt you deeply, like Jay, the loss of Jay, then the brain is gonna and the body's going to move forward and be like, we can't do that in the future. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:25.759 Right. 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:26.320 Right. 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:35.360 It doesn't know the difference between things being caused on purpose or things happening that were not purposeful. 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:39.039 It just knows loss, whatever, however it came about, yeah, yeah. 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:40.399 And so it avoids it. 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:47.759 So how do you reintroduce like the possibility of closeness? 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.279 If that's been your experience. 00:16:49.600 --> 00:17:05.519 Yeah, I I think that's that idea that you start to entertain the idea,

you process through, you you allow yourself to be vulnerable and uncomfortable enough to experience it once again, to feel what it feels like to be close to individuals. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.880 And there's always gonna be that apprehension on a certain degree, you know, on a certain level. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:17.599 But you know, that that idea that risk is key for change. 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:34.160 And so there's an awareness, and then within that awareness, then there has to be a risk, and within that risk there has to be an uncomfortable feeling to move forward and to have a more fullness emotionally. 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:44.160 I was thinking through just from uh I guess a spiritual con uh context, but like risk can almost be intertwined and I sound often with faith, right? 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:56.319 It's like we have to take faith and trust that you know that God has uh you know, he'll be he'll be he'll be present at least in these these moments in these relationships, but but it does take that step of movement, you know. 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.599 That's such a good point. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:07.839 And and so even bringing it into this idea of your relationship with God, what is your attachment style with him? 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:14.480 That's great, you know, and so mine is not great, and like it's based on my history. 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:21.279 I do a lot better better with people that I can see than a God who promises me things that I didn't experience from my father. 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:26.880 And so that's something that people so many times beat themselves up with, you know. 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:34.400 And it's like, why don't I feel closer or why can't I get closer when you know there's good reasons for that? 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:35.839 Yeah, that's really good. 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:37.440 Thank you for sharing that too. 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:39.279 Wow, yeah. 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:41.599 A lot of dimensions to think about in this. 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:51.359 So uh instead of relying on others to help regulate difficult emotions, people with dismissive avoidant attachment may have developed a pattern of relying on themselves primarily. 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:59.279 The attachment system essentially says relationships matter, but depending on others can lead to disappointment, so I'm gonna take care of myself. 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:05.200 And what's fascinating is that this response can sometimes look very different from what we explored in the last episode. 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:10.720 For someone with anxious attachment, relational uncertainty might lead to increased efforts to find connection. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:16.079 For someone with avoidant attachment, that same uncertainty might lead to greater emotional distance. 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.559 So one moves toward, the other moves away. 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:23.599 Yet both responses may be connected to an underlying concern about relational safety. 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:25.039 Yeah, yeah, that's good. 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.319 And I I would I would go further than say it might. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:31.440 I would say it definitely does. 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:33.599 Yeah, I think I'd cosign that for you. 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:34.559 Yeah. 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:36.079 So here's a question. 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:45.599 Can someone with can someone deeply desire connection while simultaneously being uncomfortable with the vulnerability required to experience that connection? 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:47.119 How would you answer that? 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:48.400 I'm gonna say yes. 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:49.680 Oh, absolutely. 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:51.839 Um I'd say that's the human condition. 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:53.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:54.640 Yeah. 00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:17.279 You know what is as as we were talking about it and as those words are coming out of my mouth, I I don't know why I got this picture of like a uh I guess middle schooler, like young, young man who really wants a girlfriend, really likes that girl, but like the more he likes her, the more afraid he is to talk to her, and the more uncomfortable he gets with like approaching her, right? 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:23.440 So that's kind of the picture I got in my head of it of like I really want a relationship with this person, and oh, that scares the crap out of me. 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:24.079 I'm gonna go this way. 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.880 I mean, you know my middle school middle school experience. 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:31.519 You pretty much summed it up and asked thanks for that. 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.079 It's a great, it's a great analogy. 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:44.000 Yeah, it's like there's there's so much fear, but there's such desire and like that tension, and like and then it's kind of like which one wins out, right? 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:49.039 And it it a lot of it is based on what prior relationships have been like, yeah. 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:50.079 Yeah. 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:58.160 And okay, Mark, this is uh kind of a question that I think might be important when we're talking about patterns and and just um events. 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:05.039 So, how would we recognize the difference between someone who simply values independence and someone who has developed avoidant attachment patterns? 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:06.240 Ooh, that's a good question. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:06.880 Wow. 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.079 Say that again. 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:18.160 So how would we um how would we recognize the difference between somebody who just values being independent, likes being on their own, whatever, or someone who has developed avoidant attachment patterns? 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.400 Yeah, I I wouldn't make that distinction. 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:22.319 I would say they go hand in hand. 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:23.279 Oh, okay,

okay. 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:32.640 You know, I don't think people, you know, come out of the womb and are suddenly, you know, okay, well, that person has the temperament of being, you know, there are some temperament things. 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:34.880 I don't want to, I don't want to totally dismiss it. 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:39.920 But I think that it it grows on, you know, the experiences that we've had. 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:40.240 Yeah. 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:50.240 You know, so let's say you have a two year old who has a parent who ends up having a terminal illness and passes away. 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:53.519 What is their attachment style going to be like? 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:57.200 Probably something like this, avoidant. 00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:58.319 Yeah. 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.160 You know, and And they're not going to be cognitive of it. 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:05.200 They're not going to be able to say like two plus two equals four. 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:11.119 But they're going to be very apprehensive because people come and go and there's no rhyme or reason to it. 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.119 There's the um the the Disney orphan syndrome, right? 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:20.079 So most of the Disney heroes were orphans or had at least one parent pass away. 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:25.200 Um, and it it's those are the ones that become the heroes and become the self-suspicient. 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.599 Um, I took care of the situation on my own, thing. 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:28.000 Right. 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.119 And that sounds it sounds nice in a Disney movie. 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:36.640 Right, right, but in real life, but but you know, like Young talked about, you know, the shadow side of us. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:37.039 Yeah. 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:45.599 You know, and so there's a lot of shadow stuff going on with attachment, you know, where we're either moving toward or away from something based on harm that we've had. 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.640 And it's it's not that great in a Disney movie either. 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:48.880 Yeah. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:54.799 Showing my kids like finding Nemo and something like the immediate scene of the Lion King. 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:55.599 Like I'm like, come on. 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:56.240 Bambi? 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:56.799 Yeah, Bambi. 00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:57.920 Traumatizing. 00:22:58.400 --> 00:22:59.039 Yeah. 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:08.480 You know, so so you know, we look at these, and and there's a a thing that we talk about in psychology a lot that histories are forgotten. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:11.359 Histories are forgotten. 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:11.839 Okay. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.519 So unpack that for me later. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:20.400 So we're these human beings that are grown up now, and we have a lot of issues. 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:21.680 I think we could agree on that. 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:23.359 Guilty as charged, yeah. 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:23.839 Yep. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:27.440 And so we're like, what's the matter with me? 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:28.000 Okay. 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:30.079 Instead of saying what happened to me. 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:30.880 Oh, that's beautiful. 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:37.119 You know, and and and so it's that idea that you know, we're uncomfortable in relationships. 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:49.039 We we want them, but we don't want them, and we feel ambivalent about them, and we feel anxious, and you know, that that idea of secure attachment is is good for a theoretical underpinning. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.599 Yeah, but it doesn't exist in this world. 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.480 And and and so histories are lost. 00:23:54.880 --> 00:24:03.119 You know, when we do story work, yeah, stories bring histories alive, and it makes people very, very uncomfortable. 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:09.440 You know, because their neurons start to fire and they start realizing what they've been through. 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:10.000 You know. 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:12.480 I can vouch for that. 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:21.359 Yeah, that's such a good insight, like rather than rather than like who what we did, but but but what we've been through. 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:26.000 I think like I don't know what is that a Western culture thing, like of individualism? 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:35.759 I think it's definitely a psychology thing too, because we we have unfortunately labeled things as disorders when they're really adaptations of what we've been through. 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:42.160 You know, we were talking about my story, one of my stories of of digging out a room with forks and knives and spoons. 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:49.599 And and you know, I had said during Commonalities Group that, you know, sometimes I'm like, I don't know why I'm so anxious. 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:56.079 Yeah, you know, and somebody who was there who is a therapist said, Why wouldn't you be anxious with what you've gone through? 00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:57.920 But that gets lost, right? 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.640 Yeah, and so we're carrying it around with us every day. 00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:02.559 And it's kind of like, what's the matter with me? 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.359 Why am I anxious? 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:05.359 But but we forget about the history. 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:21.680 It's interesting because I I think about even uh Old Testament narrative and like the Genesis narrative of like we typically just look at how jacked up the people that their choices are and things they did, but we don't tend to look at the narrative of what they experience. 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:29.920 Like, you know, you have the patterns repeating from from Abraham down, you know, down, and it's like, oh, that was something that that was experienced, you know. 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:43.440 Yeah, and and and the wisdom of Genesis, you know, you have Haggard getting kicked out

into the wilderness and the angel of the Lord showing up in her despair and saying, you know, where have you come from? 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:45.599 Yeah, and where are you going? 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:58.559 And there's a connotation, and and definitely being seen is the beginning of healing, but then also to say, you know, in order to know where you're going, you need to know where you've come from. 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:02.240 Well, I think that's part of yeah, being seen as well, like in that context. 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:07.599 It's like I I see you, meaning like I recognize what what has happened to you, you know. 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:07.839 Yeah. 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:19.039 And when when we can have other people recognize what we've been through, there's like life that gets breathed in, and then we can start seeing it for ourselves. 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:30.960 And just to the question that you asked earlier, Kirk, at least from what I know, I did some studying into like Taoism and Buddhism and Zen uh Zen Buddhism, it I don't think it's an East versus West thing. 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:39.920 I think it's a human thing where we treat the the symptoms of what we're experiencing today as something to be fixed just in today, right? 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:50.400 Um, because uh whether with uh meditation or um qigong like breathing exercises and things like that, it's all just dealing with today. 00:26:50.480 --> 00:27:00.480 It doesn't go into the past, it's all controlling now what can I do now to change things, or on the western side of it, overeating or or you know, doing things they shouldn't be doing, drinking, mediate self-medicating. 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:10.720 It all most most cultures seem to try to deal with it through something that we're doing today or not doing today or whatever, but not in going back. 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:17.359 Not a historical view of things that are that's good. 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:20.000 It's good stuff, guys. 00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:26.720 So I'm gonna explore some everyday scenarios here and see if we can find some avoidant attachment in those. 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.400 So somebody asks you how you're feeling after a difficult day, and your response is I'm good, just tired. 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:34.559 Is there anything in there? 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.000 Or sorry, I'm fine. 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:39.519 Yeah, I'm fine. 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.720 Yeah, it's interesting because I mean there I know there's moments where I'm just depleted. 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:47.359 And so I don't I all I can say is like I'm fine. 00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.880 Yeah, but I guess I could respond with I'm drained. 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:51.680 Yeah, yeah. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.400 I don't know why say I'm good or I'm fine, you know. 00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:55.039 Yeah. 00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:03.759 Well, and again, going back to our history, Walter, how has that question been met as a child? 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:04.319 Right. 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:15.839 And if we were willing to take a risk and we were told either verbally or in another way, that we shouldn't be expressing how we're feeling, yeah. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.240 You know, we get to be an adult, yeah. 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:23.759 And it's not easy to answer those questions because they weren't met well as a kid. 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:24.559 Yeah. 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:30.799 I think there's also the joke, which is also true, um, about that just becoming a greeting. 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:31.680 Hey, how are you? 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:34.559 And no ex no answers is expected. 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:34.880 Yeah. 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.279 Um, and so if somebody ever does answer, it's kind of weird. 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:39.839 Yeah, like what glad you asked. 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.519 Yeah, like, no, good, how are you? 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:42.160 Or whatever. 00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:43.519 Like, yeah, yeah. 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:47.359 There's there's no expectation of a real response ever. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:48.559 Yeah. 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:50.000 That's okay. 00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.920 That's uh so how about this one? 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:58.160 A spouse or a friend expresses a desire to have a deeper conversation about something happening in your relationship. 00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:00.160 Your immediate response? 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:06.799 Is it like, do we really need to talk about this right now, or I'm fine, or things are good? 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:09.200 What is your response to that? 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.000 Uh my honest response. 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:22.079 Uh yeah, I mean, I think uh early on in my marriage, it was probably like idealistic, like we're good, don't you know, don't dwell on that stuff, we're okay. 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.480 Then you go through through life, yeah. 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.240 And you're like, Yeah, we should talk. 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:29.279 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:30.240 Yeah. 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:31.599 We should unpack this. 00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:33.759 Um but I yeah, I don't know. 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:35.920 That answers it well, but yeah. 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:37.759 It's truthful, I guess. 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:38.400 Yeah. 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:42.480 Yeah, and it depends on what the history has been like for the last 24 hours. 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:43.920 Right, right, right. 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:44.559 Yeah. 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:45.359 Yeah. 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:51.680 I'm gonna interrupt these exercises for one second because it it the conversation so far has also got me thinking about this. 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:55.920 Um for people who are avoidant, right? 00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.599 We're talking about the the idea of like the the natural-born leaders, like lone wolf types, right? 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:06.079 Um, quote unquote natural born, uh,

people can't see me doing that in the studio. 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:06.799 Sorry. 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:18.079 Um so for these people, let's say they're avoiding people, um, and and this is why, but they're telling themselves that they're just they're just independent and they're this, that, and the other. 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:29.440 Um if they watch other people's relationships fall apart and everything and things go badly for other people who do rely on others, is there some element of like a self-reinforcing? 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.480 Like, oh, this is why I'm better off on my own, right? 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:39.039 Is there some subconscious of like, oh, I was gonna be friends with that person and then I saw that this happened to them or whatever? 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.359 So this just kind of reinforces that my my choice to be on my own is better. 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.960 Is that something that yeah, or or or people will say, like, you wonder why I do life the way I do it? 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:49.279 Yeah. 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:51.359 That's just one more reason why. 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:52.319 Right, right. 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:58.559 You just kind of kind of gild the cage more or thicken the bars on the cage that you're building. 00:30:58.640 --> 00:30:58.960 Yeah. 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:09.759 It makes it harder then to that same person might look at a relationship that's going really well with someone and not even notice it. 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:11.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:14.960 That's interesting. 00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:18.559 That is interesting. 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:33.279 I was thinking about um I don't I don't know how this this applies, but just sometimes like the narcissistic behavior is um we were talking about the it's avoidance of transparency and vulnerability, right? 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:47.039 And I think but it would present as independence or you know, and uh but deep down there is a desire for connection, just an inability of how to to feel safe in that, I guess. 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:49.920 Yeah, to allow themselves to be vulnerable enough. 00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:51.680 Yeah, yeah, be too much. 00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:52.319 Yeah. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:57.359 Just a statement on the Yeah, no, no, no. 00:31:58.240 --> 00:31:59.920 It's a good observation. 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:01.839 So, how about this one? 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:07.599 You experience an emotionally difficult situation, and rather than reaching out to someone, you find yourself withdrawing. 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:15.599 Maybe you immerse yourself in work, you spend more time alone, focus on a hobby, or you just distract yourself until those emotions become less noticeable. 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:24.160 And of course, none of those individual things automatically indicates an avoidant attachment style, but um, it's more focused on a pattern, right? 00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:31.920 So um you think that these things are we tell ourselves all kinds of stories. 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:32.319 Yeah. 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:34.799 Um, and it's like, hey, you know what? 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:38.799 I I'm just I really wanted to take up knitting and I never got around to knitting. 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:39.599 Let me do that. 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:42.880 Or man, I should really put more time in at work because I want a promotion. 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:49.119 And um the the real reason behind all of it subconsciously is I don't want to I want to avoid this thing. 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.039 I'm afraid or I'm scared of what this means. 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.319 Yeah, avoiding having to excuse me having to be known. 00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:56.319 Yeah, that's a big one. 00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.880 That you know, I think that's key. 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:08.720 And a lot of times we turn to other things, substances or pornography or or like gambling or spending, you know, filling the line. 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.000 Yeah. 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.240 And hope the for the best, whatever it is. 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:26.160 Well, yeah, and and and the bottle or you know, certain things, it's really predictable. 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:26.720 Yeah, sure. 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:32.079 You know, even though it doesn't necessarily have a good outcome in the long run, you know, it's it's predictable. 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:43.039 Whereas if I have to move into something where I'm gonna reach out to you and I don't know whether you're gonna receive this well, that's too risk-taking and and sure and too anxiety-producing for me. 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:43.759 Yeah. 00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:50.240 So, Mark, I'm gonna ask you this question um because some part of me did you smile when you were asking it. 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:54.240 Because some part of me, I think, struggles with this, the second part of this question. 00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:02.160 So the first part is what's potentially what's potentially happening internally when someone regularly disconnects from their emotional needs, right? 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:09.840 The second part though is is it possible to become so accustomed to minimizing emotions that we begin having difficulty recognizing them ourselves? 00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:16.400 I struggle, and you know this, with um a not an inability to feel anger, but it's hard for me to connect to it. 00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:25.440 Um, when it does happen, it's got to be really specific situations, and then it just comes on like hard and fast, but kind of in a healthy way, it's just not really there for me. 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:30.800 So I ask that as somebody that is actually asking you that question, not just for the point of the podcast. 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.079 So, what's the question? 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:37.199 So, what happens internally when somebody regularly disconnects from emotional from their emotional needs? 00:34:37.519 -->

00:34:42.000 Well, the first thing that I that I'm thinking right away is that there's a shutoff valve. 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:43.360 It's just too painful. 00:34:43.679 --> 00:35:01.360 So they begin to minimize it, or they spiritually bypass, or they emotionally bypass, they make excuses why that emotion is not valid, and so that that brings further disconnection, you know, and it or they say things they minimize and they say, Well, it's really not worth getting that upset over. 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:03.599 But your body already has. 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:08.320 So why not move toward it and greet it with some curiosity? 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:12.320 And then what happens over time if somebody's doing that regularly? 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:19.679 They that the word that Kirk and I have used a lot is that fragmentation, you know, that they're no longer in touch. 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:20.159 Yeah. 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.280 You know, for you, anger, what's the matter with anger? 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:28.719 I wasn't really allowed to feel it as a kid, and there wasn't any room in my my family for anger. 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:38.239 Um, there was too much other stuff going on, and so I I I don't know, I subsumed it into something else, I'm sure, bad habits and so you said it really beautifully. 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:40.079 There wasn't enough room for it. 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:44.960 And so you've can continue that tradition in your life. 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:46.480 Well, there's no room for it. 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:46.800 Yeah. 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:51.280 And it's like, yeah, well, there wasn't room, but could we make a little bit of room? 00:35:52.880 --> 00:36:01.360 Yeah, I think the part of dismissing but the whatever the emotion is, doesn't it just you just stuff it though, right? 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:02.960 It doesn't just disappear. 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:03.679 Right. 00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:08.719 And I think that's the the danger often we see is at some point someone just loses it. 00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:09.280 You know? 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:09.920 Yeah. 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.960 I can't stuff this anymore, you know. 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:25.920 And uh so the the hope is to you know not to to find a h like a healthy relationship with emotions that don't aren't suppressed, but also, you know, um, I don't know, are safe to to share. 00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:26.480 Yeah. 00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:37.360 Yeah, and and and realizing we don't go d from zero to a hundred, you know, it's not like you're gonna go from not feeling it at all to feeling the full effect of it. 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:37.599 Right. 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.639 So you have to like allow just even a little bit of room. 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:49.760 And that's where we do exercises when we ask people, you know, if you did, you know, decide to feel a little bit of anger, what color might that be? 00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:53.280 Yeah. 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:59.679 And then move into Well, you might not want to feel ten, right? 00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:07.840 But what would it be like to titrate it down and and to say, okay, well, what would two or three be like for you? 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:10.800 And where might that show up in your body? 00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:11.599 Yeah. 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:18.159 And and to allow that to be there in a tolerable way. 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:21.760 That's good, that's a good word. 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:22.480 Yeah. 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:24.719 I'm writing all this down. 00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:25.760 I gotta work through that stuff. 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:27.280 Well, you can just you can just listen to the podcast. 00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:28.000 Oh, that's true. 00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:29.519 That's actually way more helpful. 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.320 Don't take notes, just listen to this again. 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:44.320 So I think one of the things I want to point out or talk about here is that we've mentioned this before in previous episodes, but none of these things that we're talking about necessarily mean that you had abusive parents, right? 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:48.079 You didn't become avoidant because your parents did A, B, or C to you. 00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:52.079 It doesn't necessarily mean that uh someone has experienced a terrible childhood. 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:57.920 Sometimes caregivers were physically present, responsible, hardworking, and deeply committed to providing for their children. 00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:02.639 But perhaps emotional vulnerability wasn't something that was regularly acknowledged or encouraged. 00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:06.639 Maybe when you cried, you that was met with, you're fine, stop crying. 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:09.920 Or one of my personal favorites, I'll give you something to cry about, right? 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:10.880 So fun. 00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:14.719 Um, expressing fear might have been met with, there's nothing to be afraid of. 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:18.960 And seeking comfort might have been met with, you're old enough to handle this yourself, right? 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.000 Or maybe emotional needs were just overlooked. 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:30.639 Um, so it's not necessarily because the caregiver didn't love the child, but because they themselves have never learned how to respond comfortably to emotional vulnerability. 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:33.039 And I think you can see that for a lot of adults. 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:38.000 Well, I was I was thinking we may not share abusive parents, right? 00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:40.719 But I think we all share imperfect parents. 00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:41.039 Yeah. 00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:41.440 Right. 00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:45.760 And I think that's the that's where we're we all are handed down. 00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.119 And if you become a parent, you're also handing that down to the party. 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:50.559 Yeah, to somebody

else, you know. 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:56.639 Um so it's almost we all we kind of already start off in a little bit of a deficit. 00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:00.639 Yeah, yeah, no matter what our upbringing is. 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:02.400 Yeah. 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.199 I think one of the things I grew up in a very poor household. 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:22.239 Um, and as I got older and I got to experience other places, I think um maybe I expected myself to like have wished that I had grown up with more money than we had, but that was never the case. 00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:33.039 I think the one thing that I did wish that I had kind of grown up with more was um more emotional vulnerability in the house or more of an understanding of emotions. 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:36.719 I think that would have been really helpful if I had more of that. 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.079 Um so that was just one of those like interesting things that I noticed about myself. 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:56.239 Money wasn't a big thing in that, but man, as I've met people who are great parents because they allow for, you know, their child to feel what they're gonna feel and try to be um responsive and and uh hold room and hold space for that. 00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:59.519 Um, that I've been like, wow, that's that's awesome. 00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:03.679 It's really really happy for that those kids get that chance in life. 00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:15.199 So um over time, a child might begin to develop an understanding of relationships that sounds something like when I express my needs, they aren't always met. 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:23.599 Or when I become emotional, people seem uncomfortable, or it's easier to take care of myself, and then eventually that becomes I don't need anyone, right? 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.960 Um, and here's something important rather than moving toward the relationship, the individual begins moving away. 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:37.360 They might become quiet, they might change the subject, minimize the importance of the situation, or focus on practical solutions rather than emotional connection. 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.079 Um, and then what tends to happen is that they physically remove themselves from the conversation. 00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:47.440 Those are the people that go walking into the other room or that just don't even enter the room to begin with. 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:55.440 Um, sometimes that distance is obvious, other times it's really subtle, and the person might physically remain present and they become emotionally unavailable. 00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:02.880 I don't know if you guys have ever had conversations with people where they're just not the second something serious comes up or emotional comes up, they did disconnect completely. 00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:03.360 Yep. 00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:04.159 Yeah. 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:05.920 That's yes. 00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:06.719 That's what it is. 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:20.480 Um, so self-reliance becomes the preferred response, and that individual returns to what feels familiar, namely being on their own or disconnecting, um, handling things independently, relying on themselves and creating emotional distance. 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:26.400 And they might even begin convincing themselves that the relationship or the emotional concern isn't particularly important. 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:28.960 You know, like you were saying, Mark, I don't need to make a big deal out of this. 00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:30.559 This is a small thing. 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.960 Um, or it's fine. 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:34.079 Yeah, it's fine. 00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:35.360 It's fine. 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:40.400 Um, so distance might provide temporary relief, I think, for those people. 00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:45.119 But Mark, what happens if that becomes your your your kind of go-to pattern in life? 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:50.000 If you're like I would just say in general, we all need people. 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:50.800 Yeah. 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:56.480 And so when we limit ourselves from people, there's less richness in our lives. 00:41:56.559 --> 00:42:08.800 And and even though that people bring hurt and they bring challenges and they bring confusion and on and on and on, they also bring so many wonderful things into our lives that we really shortchange ourselves. 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:09.039 Yeah. 00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:15.519 And so, yeah, we we end up telling ourselves this narrative that I don't need this and I don't well, yeah. 00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:18.960 Yeah, probably there's truth to that. 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:29.679 But what are you losing out on when you allow yourself to be so withdrawn or so rigid or so uh pulled back from others? 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.199 Survival versus like a really rich life that they could be living living. 00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:33.679 Yeah. 00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:34.239 Yeah. 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:44.000 I mean, like the important reminder of it's like God's design is for us to be connected, to be to live to you know, we're he didn't just design one human. 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:44.559 Right. 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:45.119 Right. 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:48.960 I mean, originally then, yes, but like he very quickly added this. 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:53.360 Yeah, it says man should not be alone, right? 00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:54.639 Yeah, it's not healthy for man or something. 00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.840 Right, and then it goes on from there, like iron sharpens iron and bearing one another's burdens. 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:10.719 And you know, so that those one another's in the New Testament come up all over the place that we need other people in our lives if we're gonna like live an abundant life. 00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:11.679 Yeah. 00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:18.559 And so somebody, just so that you're not left feeling bad here because we're not just saying this is terrible. 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:26.559

Somebody who's developed this, this is missive avoidant attachment, doesn't have to spend the rest of their life experiencing relationships in that exact same way. 00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:37.599 Through increased awareness, which we talked about earlier, through intentional relational experiences and sometimes professional counseling, individuals can begin developing greater comfort with emotional connection and vulnerability. 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:40.719 It doesn't necessarily been mean becoming a different person, right? 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:44.559 Sometimes people equate therapy with like they're gonna turn me into someone new. 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:46.000 That's not the way that it works. 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:48.159 I mean, from what I've experienced, I don't know, Dr. 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:48.639 Mr. 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:50.880 I don't know how that works on your end. 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:52.960 I don't think they have that much power. 00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:53.920 Yeah, that's a lot of power. 00:43:54.159 --> 00:44:00.000 They got some power, but that's something that's comfort stuff where they just become um what is it, a mind controlled, right? 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:07.920 Um, so somebody who values independence doesn't have to stop valuing independence, and somebody who enjoys their solitude doesn't have to stop enjoying it. 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:17.360 It is an invitation, I guess, to begin recognizing the difference between choosing independence or feeling compelled towards independence, even if it's subconscious, right? 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:26.639 Instead of some part of you feeling so uncomfortable that it pushes you out, um, you can choose moments where you're gonna say, you know what, I'm gonna spend the afternoon alone and I'm just really gonna enjoy that time. 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:27.199 Yep. 00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:28.159 That's a healthy thing. 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:30.880 I mean, yeah, Jesus chose solitude often. 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:32.239 Yeah. 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:33.280 So, Dr. 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:44.239 Mister, what are some practical steps that somebody can take uh to uh begin or sorry, somebody can begin taking if they're recognizing avoidant attachment patterns in themselves? 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:51.920 You know, if you have one person in your life that you feel even a little bit safe with to be able to ask them how they see you. 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:54.000 You know, that would be the beginning. 00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:54.320 Yeah. 00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:04.079 I think that there's so much value in in in being able to take that risk and to be able to talk to just one person and to kind of get some input. 00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:20.239 You know, you don't I think that so many times in the mental health field, things have been pathologized or or made out to be a disorder instead of looking at it that it's a result of a lot of different things in your life, how you show up today. 00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:25.679 And so we don't want to tear the person or tear ourselves apart for that matter. 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:32.400 For that, we want to bring some kindness and show up with kindness and be like, you know, maybe this isn't working for me. 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:39.920 And so maybe I can just look at some other alternatives, and and if that is too uncomfortable, that's fine too. 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:48.320 But to maybe just seek out one person to ask them how they see you or to share something you're struggling with. 00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:56.159 I think there's so much power in being able to speak that out loud and to have that, like the power of that dissipate. 00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:56.400 Yeah. 00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:00.559 As we share with somebody and they say to us, if they're safe, you know what? 00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:01.519 That makes sense to me. 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:01.920 Yeah. 00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:03.199 That's really good. 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:04.719 That's really good. 00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:06.719 You learned the doctor and the mister today. 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:07.039 Okay. 00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:13.119 So uh thank you guys for listening to us uh and coming into this. 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.199 I hope that you won't avoid the next episode. 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:18.880 I don't want you to feel like you should be independent from the show. 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:21.280 Um, we would love to have you tune in again. 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:28.639 Um, and again, anything that you want to hear us talk about, anything that that's on your mind um about mental health, please, please, please uh let us know. 00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:31.039 Um, gents and Dr. 00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:31.440 Mr. 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:32.400 and Pastor Mr. 00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:33.519 Thank you, Walter. 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.159 Thank you guys for another great conversation. 00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:41.760 Um, to all of you listening, God loves you, we love you, God bless you, and we will catch you next time.